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3 Civil Action No. 98-WY-1198-WD

4 ------------------------------------



6 ------------------------------------

7 LINDA ARNDT, an individual,

8 Plaintiff,

9 v.

10 THOMAS KOBY and MARK BECKNER, individually and in their

    official capacity, and the CITY OF BOULDER, a municipal

11 corporation,

12 Defendants.

13 ------------------------------------


14 Wednesday, March 8, 2000

            7:45 a.m.


16 PURSUANT TO NOTICE and the Federal Rules of Civil

    Procedure, the above-entitled deposition was taken on

17 behalf of Defendants at 1873 South Bellaire Street,

    Suite 1400, Denver, Colorado, before Jane L. Escobar,

18 Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public

    within Colorado.








Page 1


2 For the Plaintiff:

    A. Bruce Jones, Esq.

3 Holland & Hart, LLP

    555 Seventeenth Street, Suite 3200

4 Denver, Colorado 80202


    For the Defendants:

6 Theodore J. Halaby, Esq.

    Halaby Crow & Schluter

7 1873 South Bellaire Street, Suite 1400

    Denver, Colorado 80222




10 EXAMINATION                                     PAGE

    March 8, 2000


    By Mr. Halaby                                 3




    EXHIBITS                                      REFERENCE


    1 Itemization of Damages               161


    2 Mileage Costs                              170



    (Attached to original and copy transcripts)








Page 2


2 Linda Arndt,

3 having been first duly sworn, was examined and

4 testified as follows:



7 Q. Just as a preliminary matter, Ms. Arndt, I

8 had heard through my paralegal that there was some

9 requests in terms of limiting the length of this

10 deposition. And I just want to get that clarified

11 that it's certainly going to be my intent to complete

12 this by, within two to three hours. But, obviously, I

13 can't guarantee anything, because it depends on how the

14 answers come out and how quickly we get through this

15 matter. But I certainly have the incentive to do that.

16 MR. JONES: That's my understanding. And

17 I dropped you a note yesterday about it, and let's just

18 hope we get through it and there won't be any dispute.

19 MR. HALABY: I haven't seen the note, but

20 can you tell me what was in there?

21 MR. JONES: Just that we were willing to

22 accommodate your request to start early with the

23 request that we would finish early, so let's hope it's

24 not a problem one way or the other.

25 Q. (By Mr. Halaby) Okay. Ms. Arndt, do you

Page 3

1 have any conflicts in terms of today?

2 A. As long as we're done by no later than

3 noon.

4 Q. Well, we are certainly going to strive for

5 that.

6 Okay. Would you please state your full

7 name and address?

8 A. Linda K. Arndt, XXXXXXX,

9 XXXXX, Colorado.

10 Q. And, Ms. Arndt, you are the plaintiff in

11 this matter that has been brought against the City of

12 Boulder and its present and past Chief of Police?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you understand that this deposition is

15 being taken in the context of this deposition, in the

16 context of that complaint that you have brought?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I'm sure your counsel has explained to you

19 all of the procedures in a deposition. Let me just

20 inquire though. Have you ever had your deposition

21 taken before?

22 A. Once many years ago.

23 Q. Okay. Let me just reaffirm that if at any

24 time you don't understand a question that I've asked,

25 always feel free to ask me to rephrase it and I'll be

Page 4

1 glad to do it at that time.

2 A. Okay.

3 Q. And I'll just always assume if you answer


4 that you've understood my question. Okay?

5 A. Okay.

6 Q. Are you presently taking any medication?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And can you tell me what that is?

9 A. Effexor.

10 Q. And for what condition?

11 A. Antidepressant.

12 Q. And this was prescribed by whom?

13 A. Dr. Lipetz.

14 Q. And how long have you been on this

15 medication?

16 A. About mid November of 1999.

17 Q. And what is your present dosage?

18 A. 75 milligrams a day.

19 Q. And when do you take it?

20 A. In the morning.

21 Q. And you've taken it today?

22 A. I have.

23 Q. Does that affect your ability to understand

24 questions or to relate responses?

25 A. No.

Page 5

1 Q. We'll go in more to those matters later.

2 Right now I'd like to turn my attention to the

3 allegations in the complaint and make sure I understand

4 what you're asserting.

5 Is it accurate to state that the thrust of

6 the complaint you have made is that you were not

7 allowed to present, to have presented, your side of the

8 story as it related to your conduct in the Ramsey

9 investigation?

10 MR. JONES: Object to the form and extent

11 that it calls for a legal conclusion. You can go

12 ahead.

13 THE DEPONENT: Is the thrust of my

14 complaint that I was not allowed to -

15 Q. (By MR. Halaby) Have presented to the

16 public -

17 A. Okay.

18 Q. - your side as to what your conduct was in

19 the course of the Ramsey investigation?

20 A. I wouldn't word it that way, no.

21 Q. How would you word it?

22 A. There was a gag order put out by then Chief

23 Koby, which for those of us who followed it, didn't

24 allow anyone to speak at all about the Ramsey case to

25 the media. And my thrust is I was, my reputation was

Page 6

1 thoroughly damaged because I followed the gag order.

2 And in addition to the gag order, there

3 were also leaks within all of the police department,

4 which contributed to the damage of my reputation.

5 Q. These leaks that were critical of your

6 conduct in the investigation, is that what you're

7 referring to?

8 A. They were negative.

9 Q. Negative meaning what, just so I'm clear?

10 A. Do you know what negative means?

11 Q. I know what the word negative means, but I

12 need to know your understanding of it and the context

13 of which you just mentioned.

14 A. The leaks from the Boulder Police Department

15 stated false things about me.

16 Q. And were these false things, to your

17 understanding, in the context of how you performed in

18 the investigation and your conduct in the

19 investigation?

20 A. The people who made the leaks - some of it

21 was statements regarding what I did or did not do with

22 regards to the Ramsey investigation.

23 Q. And did you consider these false statements

24 false because they explicitly or implicitly said that

25 you had not properly conducted the investigation to the

Page 7

1 degree you were involved in it?

2 A. Would you ask it again?

3 Q. Sure. You indicated that these leaks were

4 false statements about you, and what I'm trying to

5 understand more clearly is about you, as it would

6 relate to the fact that you had improperly performed

7 your function in the Ramsey investigation.

8 A. I wouldn't say it was as - the people that

9 leaked the statements that were made were about things

10 I did or didn't do with regards to the Ramsey

11 investigation but not exclusively.

12 Q. Okay. And so getting back to my original

13 question as to the thrust of your complaint, these

14 leaks that you considered false and damaged your

15 reputation in conjunction with your not being able to

16 go public yourself at that time to defend yourself as

17 it related to these leaks, is part of what you're

18 contending in your lawsuit?

19 A. Part of what I'm contending is that due to

20 the false statements put out in the media, some by

21 leaks within the Boulder Police Department, and the

22 failure of the head command at Boulder Police

23 Department to correct the record or allow me to correct

24 the record, yes, did damage my reputation.

25 Q. Alright. Did you feel there were any

Page 8

1 other individuals who were involved in the

2 investigation that were similarly affected by false

3 statements in the media with no specific response to


4 those false statements, or do you feel you were the

5 only one?

6 A. I feel no one had the length or extensive

7 negative criticism in the media that was given to me.

8 Q. Alright. But I don't believe that quite

9 answers the question I was asking. My question is

10 whether you feel you were the only one that was so

11 affected, or do you feel there were others that are

12 similarly affected that were involved in the

13 investigation as members of the Boulder Police

14 Department?

15 A. I don't see anyone that was put in the same

16 situation that I was.

17 Q. Did you see anyone else out there, that at

18 least in your opinion, there were false statements

19 about in terms of their conduct in the investigation

20 who also did not speak publicly in their own defense?

21 A. Larry Mason.

22 Q. Anyone else?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you recall any statement by any official

25 on behalf of the Department or the City of Boulder who

Page 9

1 made public statements defending individuals involved

2 in the investigation on behalf of Boulder?

3 A. Named individuals?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. No, I don't.

6 Q. So you're not claiming that this was done

7 for some but not done for you; is that correct?

8 A. What was not done for some?

9 Q. That others who may have been criticized in

10 the media for subperformance in the investigation were

11 not specifically defended by a spokesperson for the

12 Department or the City to the exclusion of you. I'm

13 trying to simplify the questions but that's the thrust

14 of it.

15 A. Right. Okay.

16 Q. I mean, you weren't the Lone Ranger. This

17 applied across the board. A lot of people were being

18 criticized in the media, correct, in terms of the

19 conduct of the investigation?

20 MR. JONES: Object to the form, I think it

21 misstates what she said.

22 Q. (By Mr. Halaby) Well, I'm asking. You

23 didn't quite understand my question before so I'm now

24 trying to rephrase it.

25 A. You're right.

Page 10

1 Q. I'm just trying to get this thing along.

2 Let me see if I can break it down into subparts.

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. Is it true in your belief you weren't

5 the only one as to whom there were substatements


6 criticizing the performance of individuals who were

7 participating in the investigation?

8 A. There was - as I said, Larry Mason also

9 was named.

10 Q. And weren't there a number of others that

11 also were being criticized in the media?

12 A. Named?

13 Q. Uh-huh.

14 A. I just remember the two of us.

15 Q. Alright. What did you understand the

16 media policy to be as it related to the Ramsey

17 investigation?

18 A. That no one was supposed to speak to the

19 media other than Eller or higher up.

20 Q. And how did you obtain this understanding?

21 A. Well, after Eller met Mason at DIA on

22 January 5th, he removed Mason from the investigation

23 and put him on leave and did an IA on him. It was

24 pretty clear that under the guise Eller did that,

25 saying Mason leaked information to the media, the

Page 11

1 message was very clear that if there's a thought or a

2 suspicion that you leaked any info, what happened to

3 Mason would happen to you.

4 Q. Now do you have any criticism with a

5 prohibition on leaking information of the investigation

6 to the media?

7 A. You mean did I have a problem with there

8 being -

9 Q. Well, let me rephrase it if you don't

0 understand it.

11 A. Thank you.

12 Q. If I understood you correctly, you just

13 said your understanding of the media policy was that no

14 one was to speak to the media other than Eller and

15 those above him, correct?

16 A. About specifics of the case, yes.

17 Q. About specifics of the case. And that if

18 specifics of the case were leaked to the media, they

19 would, the person identified as the leak would be

20 sanctioned?

21 A. If there was a suspicion that you talked to

22 the media, regardless of what the context was, yes,

23 there would be sanctions.

24 Q. Alright. Did you take issue with the

25 fact that the Department would sanction anyone

Page 12

1 participating in the investigation for leaking

2 specifics of the information to the media?

3 A. If the Department was going to - well, if

4 if it was done fairly to everyone, no.

5 Q. Okay. And could you see why that would be

6 not only proper but a beneficial policy to have, not to

7 have piecemeal leaks of information leaked to the media

8 concerning the investigation?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, you understood fully, I'm sure, that

11 this investigation was receiving an inordinate amount

12 of public inquiry from the media worldwide.

13 A. I wasn't aware of that at the time.

14 Q. When did you first become aware of that?

15 A. I can't - I don't know the date.

16 Q. Well how soon after the incident itself

17 did you become aware of the not only national but

18 worldwide interest in the investigation?

19 A. I spent so much time doing the work, I

20 wasn't aware of it - I didn't watch the news. I didn't read

21 a paper. So I can tell you that when the satellite

22 trucks were parked out in front of the police

23 department, I became aware.

24 Q. And how soon after the incident was that?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 13

1 Q. I mean, within a week?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. Shortly after - can you give us any kind

4 of context as to when you first came to the realization

5 of the widespread interest in this?

6 A. No, I can't.

7 Q. Okay. How about within a month of things?

8 A. Within a month, yes.

9 Q. Okay. So at least within a month of it,

10 you were fully aware of the widespread interest in this

11 case?

12 A. I wouldn't say fully, because I wasn't able

13 to read the newspaper or watch the news so I didn't

14 know.

15 Q. But the mere fact of all the satellite

16 trucks out front, that was kind of unprecedented in

17 your career, wasn't it?

18 A. It was unprecedented, yes.

19 Q. And that certainly was a case of interest

20 outside the City of Boulder and the State of Colorado?

21 A. I don't know what the indication was. It

22 certainly was invasive.

23 Q. Certainly what?

24 A. Invasive.

25 Q. Had anyone from the media ever approached

Page 14

1 you for comments relating to the Ramsey investigation?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When did that first occur?

4 A. I don't have a date.

5 Q. Just give me your guest approximation

6 relative to the December 25th date of the incident.

7 A. 26th you mean?

8 Q. 26th.

9 A. Maybe two weeks afterwards. That's a rough

10 guess.

11 Q. Okay. And what was the nature of this

12 inquiry to you by the media directly?

13 A. All I have is a vague memory, so as memory

14 serves, it was somebody local. And I don't know who,

15 who called and asked was I involved and could I talk

16 about it.

17 Q. And what was your response?

18 A. I don't know, but I didn't talk about it.

19 Q. At any time while you were a participant in

20 the Ramsey investigation, did you personally talk to

21 anyone who was connected with the media?

22 A. About the Ramsey case?

23 Q. Right.

24 A. No.

25 Q. And at no time did you ever provide anyone

Page 15

1 in the media - and you know what I mean by media, any

2 publication or radio, TV representative - any

3 information on the Ramsey investigation?

4 A. When I was still actively on the case?

5 Q. Right.

6 A. Never gave them information about the case.

7 Q. When was the first time you gave any media

8 representative information about the case?

9 A. August of '99?

10 Q. And to whom?

11 A. I think. That's where there's a question

12 mark. I think it's about August of '99.

13 Q. Alright. And who was that to?

14 A. Shelly Ross.

15 Q. And who's Shelly Ross?

16 A. She's a producer with the TV show Good

17 Morning America.

18 Q. How did you happen to come into contact

19 with Shelly Ross?

20 A. She had tried to contact me prior to then.

21 Q. And?

22 A. And?

23 Q. How did this contact come about?

24 A. She called and left messages.

25 Q. Okay. Can you explain further how the two

Page 16

1 of you got together?

2 A. In August?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. I called her at her work and said I would

5 like to talk to her about being on her show to talk

6 about, to clear my name in the Ramsey case.

7 Q. In your prior contacts with her, was - and

8 you say she initiated the initial contact; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And when she initiated this contact, was it

12 from her standpoint to give you an opportunity to

13 defend yourself in the Ramsey investigation?

14 A. That was part of it. She said she wanted

15 to hear my side of the story.

16 Q. Was there any other part of it, from her

17 point of view, in terms of what she told you?

18 A. Well, that's how I remember her phrasing

19 it.

20 Q. What caused you in August '99 to follow

21 up with her?

22 A. There was no, no attempts by the Boulder

23 Police Department to ever clear my name. I had left

24 because of that, left the police department because of

25 that. I wanted to go back to work. And since the

Page 17

1 whole Ramsey case had gotten national and international

2 extensive coverage, the way for me to clear my name was

3 to do it on a national or international media.

4 Q. Who assisted you in this process, or did

5 you do this all on your own?

6 A. I did this all - well, I made the contact

7 on my own.

8 Q. How about the follow-up?

9 A. Well, I told my attorneys.

10 Q. Including Mr. Jones?

11 A. Including Mr. Jones.

12 Q. Were you assisted by them in arranging this

13 interview?

14 MR. JONES: I'm going to object to the

15 extent that calls for any communications with your

16 counsel.

17 Q. (By Mr. Halaby) I don't want to hear any

18 communications, but were you assisted in the

19 arrangements? And this can involve their contacts with

20 Good Morning America.

21 A. Their conference room was offered as a

22 place to, a location to conduct the interview.

23 Q. Is that where the interview took place?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And who dealt -

Page 18

1 A. May I have some water?

2 Q. You bet. Let's get more than that.

3 (Short recess.)

4 Q. (By Mr. Halaby) Did you - obviously when

5 these things are done, there's a lot of conversations

6 going back between you or your representative and the

7 producers of the program before it's ultimately

8 finalized. Who was conducting these negotiations, if I

9 may call them that, with the program?

10 A. I talked directly to Shelly.

11 Q. Alright. Did anyone else talk on your

12 behalf with any representative of the program?

13 A. I don't think so, unless to set up

14 logistics for them arriving.

15 Q. So if I may use the vernacular, you alone

16 were the one that cut the deal with Shelly in terms of

17 your appearance on this program in the interview?

18 MR. JONES: Object to the form of the

19 question. Misstates prior testimony.

20 Q. (By Mr. Halaby) Is that correct?

21 A. I didn't cut a deal with Shelly.

22 Q. What did you do?

23 A. I told her that I would be interested in

24 taking her up on the offer.

25 Q. And what were the terms of the offer, from

Page 19

1 their point of view and your point of view?

2 A. Just that I would be allowed to say what

3 happened and to clear my name.

4 Q. Were any conditions placed on the interview

5 by either side?

6 A. Yeah. I said it had to be done in Denver.

7 Q. Any other conditions?

8 A. I don't remember.

9 Q. Think for a moment.

10 A. It was only going to be done one time.

11 Q. So it was only going to be done one time,

12 it was going to be done in Denver. Any other

13 conditions?

14 A. That's what I remember.

15 Q. Were you going to be paid in any way?

16 A. Not at all.

17 Q. Did you receive any, anything of benefit to

18 you as a result of this, other than the opportunity to

19 express yourself?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Now, this interview was taped, is that

22 correct, and then rebroadcast in segments during a

23 one-week time period?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was there only one interview held, or was

Page 20

1 there a series of interviews?

2 A. There was one interview.

3 Q. And how long did that interview last?

4 A. Including breaks?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. Five hours about.

7 Q. And how many hours of the interview were

8 actually broadcast?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. You watched the entire interview I take

11 it?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You never watched it?

14 A. I didn't watch the entire interview.

15 Q. So you don't - was it taped for you?

16 A. It was taped, uh-huh.

17 Q. And you've never reviewed what segments of

18 your interview were actually broadcast?

19 A. I've never watched the whole thing.

20 Q. For any particular reason?

21 A. Too hard to watch.

22 Q. In what respect?

23 A. What I talked about was an incident in a

24 time that I didn't - it was hell living through it at

25 the time, and I sure didn't want to watch myself

Page 21

1 remember that.

2 Q. Was this difficult for you to go through

3 this interview?

4 A. Very much.

5 Q. And your interview was with whom?

6 A. Good Morning America.

7 Q. Yeah. What individual?

8 A. Elizabeth Vargas.

9 Q. Elizabeth Vargas?

10 A. Vargas.

11 Q. And when did the producer put you in touch

12 with Miss Vargas?

13 A. Probably half an hour before we shot.

14 Q. So prior to that time had you had

15 conversations with the producer to go over the content

16 of your interview?

17 A. I remember one telephone interview.

18 Q. With the producer?

19 A. With Shelly.

20 Q. And Shelly obviously wanted to have an

21 understanding as to the general content so she could

22 prepare Miss Vargas for the interview; is that correct?

23 A. Shelly wanted to have a sense of the

24 information that I had to prepare.

25 Q. In the conduct of that interview, were

Page 22

1 there any surprises from your point of view?

2 MR. JONES: Objection, vague.

3 THE DEPONENT: Do I still answer?

4 MR. JONES: Go ahead.

5 THE DEPONENT: Okay. Yeah there was.

6 Q. (BY MR. HALABY) All right. Could you tell

7 me about that?

8 A. It was just that I was surprised at how

9 hard it was to still talk about it. It being December

10 26th and what happened that day.

11 Q. Because of the emotional aspects of it?

12 A. Because of all that had occurred which

13 started on that date.

14 Q. Any other surprises?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Any surprises as to, as it related to any

17 questions you were asked that you had not anticipated?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Were you ever asked to speculate as to whom

20 you believe committed the murder?

21 A. You mean in the actual interview?

22 Q. At any time in your communications with

23 GMA.

24 A. I was asked something about that.

25 Q. Something about that?

Page 23

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you ever respond?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. With names?

5 A. No.

6 Q. What was the nature of your response?

7 A. I'll try to remember. I remember saying

8 that I know who killed JonBenet.

9 Q. All right. And that fact was broadcast,

10 wasn't it?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Other than saying that, did you ever give

13 any more specifics than simply the fact that you knew

14 who killed JonBenet?

15 A. Specifics with regard to what?

16 Q. As to the identity of the individual.

17 A. I know I didn't name the individual, and I

18 don't remember.

19 Q. When did you first arrive at this opinion

20 relative to the incident?

21 A. Which opinion?

22 Q. As to who killed JonBenet?

23 A. When John Ramsey came up with the steps

24 with JonBenet in his arms.

25 Q. I didn't hear that. I'm sorry. When John

Page 24


1 Ramsey came up the stairs with JonBenet -

2 A. In his arms.

3 Q. That's when you formed the opinion?

4 A. That's when many things that had not made

5 sense and were disturbing during the morning made

6 sense.

7 Q. All right. So you formed the conclusion he

8 had done it?

9 A. It was clear that John had killed JonBenet.

10 Q. Now, did you ever report that to anybody?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who did you report that to?

13 A. It was the team, the investigative team.

14 Q. When did you first report that?

15 A. I couldn't tell you when.

16 Q. That day?

17 A. I don't even - I don't know.

18 Q. I mean, you formed the opinion the day on

19 December 26th, correct?

20 A. I told you that that's when things were

21 clear to me, yes.

22 Q. And that's when you formed your opinion

23 that John Ramsey was the perpetrator of this crime?

24 A. On December 26th, yes.

25 Q. All right. Can you recall ever giving that

Page 25

1 specific information to anybody on that day involved or

2 connected to the Boulder Police Department?

3 A. No. I don't remember.

4 Q. Within two or three days of that day, do

5 you have a recollection of telling anybody connected

6 with the Boulder Police Department of this opinion of

7 yours?

8 A. I know that I expressed that opinion many

9 times. When, I couldn't tell you.

10 Q. Expressed to whom?

11 A. The team, people who were present at the

12 team meetings.

13 Q. Okay. And who were the members of the team?

14 A. At that time?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. Oh geez. At that time there were tons.

17 Eller ran the show; Larry Mason. There was too many

18 involved. Trujillo. I remember better by the 28th


19 kind of the players. I remember Ed Gosage was there by

20 then; Steve Thomas; Jim Byfield; Mike Everett; Bob

21 Whitson. Am I going too fast? Nathan Vasquez; Greg

22 Idler; Melissa Hickman; Fred Patterson; Hosstrom

23 from the DA's office. I guess he's not part of the police

24 department team.

25 Q. Who was that?

Page 26

1 A. Pete Hosstrom. He's not part of the team.

2 He was in a different capacity. Did I say Mason?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. Those are the ones that come to mind at the

5 time.

6 Q. All right. And so it's your recollection

7 that shortly after this incident in one of these team

8 meetings you expressed your view in this regard?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was this based on facts you were aware of

11 or just an impression?

12 A. It was based on behaviors and fact.

13 Q. What facts?

14 A. Well, after the FBI showed up at the house,

15 then I was told that there was the practiced note on

16 the note pad that John Ramsey had given earlier that

17 day and that the parents were involved. Yeah, I

18 already knew that. And then the behaviors I witnessed

19 throughout the day.

20 Q. What specifically about John Ramsey's

21 behavior led you to this conclusion?

22 A. Well, based on my training and experience,

23 it's not one thing. It's a culmination of all the

24 behaviors that day, his background that I was able to

25 glean, and his behavior and his comments after he

Page 27

1 brought JonBenet up in particular.

2 Q. Are those contained in the report you

3 authored concerning those events?

4 A. Is what contained? My observations

5 are contained.

6 Q. The comments you were relying on to form

7 your conclusion of his involvement, are those contained

8 in your report?

9 A. My observations are contained in the

10 report, so it's a fairly objective report, as

11 remember it.

12 Q. But that wasn't my question. You referred

13 specifically to comments he made that were part of your

14 forming this conclusion as to his involvement. And my

15 question was are those comments you were referring to

16 in this context contained in your report?

17 A. I believe they are.

18 Q. And at the same time had you excluded his

19 wife as a participant in this crime?

20 A. I hadn't excluded Patsy for her

21 involvement.

22 Q. Did you at some time arrive at that

23 conclusion?

24 A. Never.

25 Q. So to this day, have you formed an opinion

Page 28


1 as to whether Patsy was involved in the murder of her

2 daughter?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And what's that conclusion?

5 A. That John actually killed his daughter, but

6 Patsy was involved in presenting the murder as

7 something other than a murder.

8 Q. The post murder coverup, to generalize?

9 A. Well, I don't like that phrasing, but that

10 is generally how some people refer to it, yes.

11 Q. Did you also make this known to those that

12 were part of the investigative team?

13 A. What, Patsy's involvement?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, was this based on fact or impression?

17 A. And those are my two options?

18 Q. No. You're not restricted to those two.

19 You just give me what it is, what the facts are as far

20 as you understand them.

21 A. Based on my training and experience as a

22 sex assault investigator and as a cop and all the

23 experience and training in all investigations.

24 Q. Okay. So if I understand your answer, it's

25 because of your background and experience that you took

Page 29

1 the totality of the circumstances, as you perceived

2 them to be on that day, and formed these conclusions?

3 A. It is using my background and experience.

4 And your phrasing of totality of circumstances, it's -

5 what happened on December 26th or what I observed on

6 December 26th, it's using what happened that day with

7 the information about behaviors and facts before

8 December 26th.

9 Q. Did you feel there was anything you did on

10 December 26th, at the Ramsey home that had any kind of

11 negative impact on the investigation?

12 A. I think I did a phenomenally good job,

13 given the resources that I had and the information I

14 had.

15 Q. Okay. Let me ask the reporter to repeat my

16 question and see if you could answer directly to that

17 question.

18 (Record read by reporter as requested.)

19 A. No.

20 Q. Now, you indicated you didn't feel you had

21 adequate support that day; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Well, you've got to make sure the record is

24 clear in your response.

25 MR. JONES: I object to both the question

Page 30

1 and the answer.

2 Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Let's clarify it. I think

3 I understood what you were saying, but why don't you

4 explain what you just meant?

5 A. Yes, I agree with you. No, I did not have

6 adequate support that day.

7 Q. Did you feel you had inadequate support to

8 control the crime scene?

9 A. The crime scene, meaning the Ramsey home?

10 Q. Was that your understanding as to where the

11 crime occurred?

12 A. Of kidnapping, yes.

13 Q. Would that - at the time you were under

14 the impression it was a kidnapping, and that was your

15 initial impression; is that correct?

16 A. At the time I was told by the supervisor,

17 who called me, this looks like a real kidnapping.

18 Q. So when you went to the Ramsey house, that

19 was your mind-set, that you were investigating a

20 kidnapping?

21 A. Yes. That's what I was told.

22 Q. And now I understand that's what you were

23 told initially, but once you get to the Ramsey

24 household, you're now a receptor of observations,

25 sounds, the environment in that house. You're getting

Page 31

1 new facts all the time. In terms of your initial

2 impressions after you were at the house, did you

3 continue to believe it was a kidnapping?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And when did that feeling change?

6 A. When John brought JonBenet up.

7 Q. So then you thought it was a murder and the

8 murder took place in the Ramsey house at that point in

9 time?

10 A. It was clear it was a murder.

11 Q. And that it had taken place in the Ramsey

12 house? I'm trying to establish what you conceived as

13 the crime seen in terms of that murder.

14 A. Given the information from the patrol

15 officers, yes, that the murder had happened inside the

16 home.


17 Q. So at least at that point in time when you

18 were, when you observed John Ramsey bring up JonBenet,

19 you had concluded that the Ramsey house was the crime

20 scene for that murder of JonBenet?

21 A. That was the starting point, yes.

22 Q. Okay. And you knew from your background

23 education and training as a law enforcement officer

24 that you then had a responsibility to preserve the

25 crime scene?

Page 32

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And in your opinion, you took all

3 reasonable efforts under the circumstances to preserve

4 the crime scene?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. Let's go back to the GMA interview.

7 Did you feel you were given full opportunity to do what

8 you wanted to do?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Why is that?

11 A. Not all of the false statements that had

12 been out in the media were addressed I don't think.

13 Q. Going into the interview, did you have an

14 understanding that you could address any subject you

15 cared to address in that context?

16 A. My understanding was that these false

17 statements would be addressed.

18 Q. By whom, you or the interviewer?

19 A. Both.

20 Q. Okay. So to rephrase my question, you at

21 least had an understanding that you had some control in

22 assuring that these, all of these points would be

23 raised to your satisfaction?

24 A. I was told that would be an area that

25 questions would be asked, yes.

Page 33

1 Q. And were you satisfied that those areas

2 would be covered to your satisfaction going into the

3 interview, you were satisfied with that?

4 A. I felt they would be.

5 Q. Okay. And - but when the interview was

6 concluded, you didn't think they were?

7 A. I discovered during the interview how

8 draining it was to do an interview and how topics

9 covered earlier probably get more, better, clear time

10 for me than a topic covered later.

11 Q. I'm not sure that answered my question.

12 Let me try again.

13 A. Okay.

14 Q. When you completed the interview, did you

15 feel you hadn't covered the points you wanted to cover?

16 A. Probably the best way to answer that is

17 that I'm a perfectionist, so things were covered that

18 we had talked about covering, but to my satisfaction,

19 probably I would have loved to do some things over.

20 Q. So it wasn't the fact that you weren't

21 given the opportunity but just that you could have done

22 better had you had a chance to do it again; is that

23 correct?

24 A. I would have been more fresh and less

25 exhausted by the time certain topics were covered.

Page 34

1 Q. So let me repeat my question again. It

2 wasn't because you weren't given the opportunity. It's

3 just that you felt you could have performed better the

4 second time around as to those same topics.

5 A. Not necessarily second time around. I will

6 answer yes, the opportunity was there. Given the

7 format, I was not as pleased with the format.

8 Q. All right. Did you - were you at least, in

9 your mind, given the opportunity to address all of the

10 topics that were in your mind that needed to be

11 covered?

12 A. I think we did.

13 Q. Okay. Now were these the same topics you

14 would have addressed had you been allowed to give a

15 press conference at the time you wanted to give a press

16 conference while still employed with the police

17 department?

18 A. Can I answer the other question, the

19 previous question, or this one, too. I wanted to add

20 to the previous.

21 Q. Please do.

22 A. Was everything covered in the GMA

23 interview? No. There was one piece that I wanted to

24 thank certain individuals for their support, and that

25 wasn't covered.

Page 35

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. So -

3 Q. All right. But the thrust of why you wanted

4 to do this interview was to repair the damage you

5 thought had been done to your reputation; is that

6 correct?

7 A. The damage that I had known had been done

8 to my reputation, yeah.

9 Q. And that was the prime purpose of your

10 wanting to do this interview?

11 A. Instead of being seen as the big screw up

12 and the lone screw up in the police department, yeah, I

13 I wanted to be seen as the competent individual that I

14 am.

15 Q. Is your answer yes then?

16 A. In a short word, yes. Short word with my

17 long addendum.

18 Q. Okay. And is that interview and what you

19 said in that interview what, in your complaint, you're

20 alleging you were not given the opportunity to say?

21 A. So everything in the GMA interview?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. I touched on certain things in that

24 interview, I'm remembering. I think most of the

25 things were covered. That's the best I can answer.

Page 36

1 Q. Okay, but that - all right. So let me

2 just see if I can reinterpret the last answer so I'm

3 clear, and you tell me if I'm not accurate.

4 That in terms of the things you wanted to

5 state to protect your reputation that you alleged in

6 the complaint you were precluded from, those topics

7 were covered in the GMA interview; is that correct?

8 A. I addressed in the GMA interview a lot of

9 the false statements that had been put out in the

10 media. And yes, what I believe is put in my complaint

11 was neither the police department nor Koby or Beckner

12 corrected that record nor allowed me to, so that is

13 what I corrected or tried to correct.

14 Q. Okay. I think I understand you now, so let

15 me rephrase it another way.

16 If you had been given the opportunity to

17 correct the record and preserve your reputation that

18 you allege in your complaint you were not given, would

19 you have addressed those same topics that you addressed

20 in your GMA interview?

21 A. That's hard to answer, because it was never

22 offered in the longer - all that falseness was kept

23 out in the media. And the longer it sat there, it

24 became truth.

25 Q. Repeat the question. Listen again to my

Page 37

1 question.

2 (Record read by reporter as requested.)

3 A. Yeah, I think there was.

4 Q. Can you list for us those topics we're

5 talking about that you did not address in your GMA

6 interview and would have addressed, if you were given

7 the opportunity while still employed with the Boulder

8 Police Department?

9 A. The actual events of December 26th. I know

10 that covered - just by addressing some things of

11 December 26th, that took care of a lot of it; internal

12 politics at the police department; and how the focus

13 got lost in the investigation. That's it.

14 Q. That's it. Now all - you gave us three

15 categories there; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And in your opinion, all three categories

18 related directly to your reputation?

19 A. Well, they're all interwoven. Those

20 categories are interwoven.

21 Q. All right. Let me see if I can rephrase

22 that question. They're all interwoven and relate to

23 your reputation, in your opinion?

24 A. They relate to how my reputation, how I got

25 to be the scapegoat and my reputation went down the

Page 38

1 toilet.

2 Q. So your answer would be yes, all three are

3 interrelated and relate to your reputation?

4 A. With my addendum to it, yes.

5 Q. Of going down the toilet I guess, is that

6 it?

7 A. Well -

8 Q. All right.

9 MR. JONES: There was more than that,

10 but -

11 MR. HALABY: I understand. That phrase

12 just caught my attention.

13 MR. JONES: Yes.

14 Q. (BY MR. HALABY) How did - now I can understand

15 category 1, the actual events of 12-26. And

16 you said that took care of a lot of the damage to your

17 reputation.

18 A. That covered a lot of statements that were

19 put out.

20 Q. That you were able to correct,as it

21 related to the events of 12-26?

22 A. I was able to present my side. However,

23 because of the other, because of the internal politics

24 and - what was the third thing I said?

25 Q. How the focus got lost in the

Page 39

1 investigation.

2 A. Those two categories of dynamics really

3 ensconced me in the scapegoat role.

4 Q. All right. Now, I can readily understand

5 from your viewpoint category 1 as to the events of

6 12-26. I'm having trouble with the next two categories

7 as to how you say these affected your reputation. Can

8 you explore that with me in detail as to what the

9 dynamics of that was or were?

10 A. Which one would you like me to start with?

11 Q. Either way. The internal politics of the

12 police department or the lost focus in the

13 investigation.

14 A. They'll probably dovetail, so I'll start

15 with lost focus and it will go right into the politics.

16 Within the first week there were

17 individuals at the Boulder Police Department that were

18 talking about the book they were going to make from

19 this case. There were egos involved, that the interest

20 of certain individuals was more paramount than the

21 investigation of a little girl's murder.

22 Q. These are members of the police department?

23 A. Yes. People were not necessarily chosen to

24 do things for their, based on their merit or talent but

25 based on their relationships with other people in the

Page 40

1 department.

2 Q. In terms of their role in the

3 investigation?

4 A. Yes. Some people, information was kept

5 from some people. That was an unprecedented way of

6 investigating, and it seemed to be a lot of leniency

7 and unusual concerns shown towards the Ramseys. And

8 there were supervisors and people in positions of

9 authority who seemed unable or unwilling to make

10 decisions. There was no clear command structure. And

11 then the leaks started so early on and it was clear

12 that certain people could talk with no, they could say

13 what they wanted to the press. And it was known that

14 people were talking to the tabloids and figuratively.

15 Q. When you refer to people, are you referring

16 to members of the Boulder Police Department?

17 A. Members of the Boulder Police Department on

18 the investigative team on the Ramsey case.

19 Q. So whenever you refer to people, that's

20 what you'll be referring to?

21 A. Well, I will be clear. There was quite a

22 strong message sent out when Mason was summarily

23 dismissed from the investigative team. And then it was

24 known the next day that what he was charged with he

25 never did, but still he was put through hell for six

Page 41

1 months and went through an IA. And it was known that

2 he never did what was alleged.

3 The politics involved people in supervisory

4 positions able to see black and white and not able to

5 see anything that wasn't tangible. And if a person's

6 opinion on the investigative team was in the minority,

7 that opinion was dismissed.

8 Q. Does that include your opinions?

9 A. It included mine, all of the Department of

10 Social Services, including some other people.

11 Q. So you were - you felt you were advocating

12 certain opinions in these investigative team meetings

13 that were minority opinions, and, therefore,

14 disregarded?

15 A. It was not - my opinion was not the

16 opinion of the command structure at the Boulder Police

17 Department, and, no, my opinion wasn't, was never heard

18 nor heeded.

19 Q. So to repeat my question, you felt that

20 opinions you were expressing in these investigative

21 team meetings were being disregarded and were minority

22 opinions?

23 A. Opinions and information, yes.

24 Q. Yes to that question, with your addendum?

25 A. Yes.

Page 42

1 Q. And what opinions are you referring to that

2 were material to the investigation?

3 A. Incest. Naming the Ramseys as suspects.

4 Q. This is incest between John Ramsey and

5 JonBenet?

6 A. Yes, to the whole incest dynamic in the

7 family.

8 Q. But involving John Ramsey and JonBenet, any

9 other members?

10 A. Well, specifically because she's the one

11 who's dead.

12 Q. But when you refer again to incest, it

13 could involve any number of family members. I'm just

14 trying to identify the family members you refer to when

15 you use that term.

16 A. Well, there's a whole dynamic, because

17 everybody's got a role in the family.

18 Q. The incest has an effect on family members,

19 does it not?

20 A. Well, in general terms that covers it when

21 you talk about an act, but I'm talking about the

22 dynamic.

23 Q. I understand about the dynamic, but I want

24 to get the predicate first. The participants in the

25 incest, when you refer to incest, you're referring to

Page 43

1 John Ramsey and JonBenet and no other family members?

2 A. I refer to every member of the family.

3 Every member has got a role.

4 Q. But in terms of an actual sexual act that's

5 implicit in the term of incest, you're referring to

6 John Ramsey and JonBenet?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What else? You said incest, naming Ramseys

9 as suspects. What else?

10 A. Not clearing people, witnesses, in this

11 case and allowing them to be hung out to the media.

12 Witnesses in the case asked for help in protection and

13 safety concerns, and they were ignored and their

14 reports wouldn't be taken. Focusing on what we had and

15 looking at all we had rather than just tangible.

16 Q. I'm not sure I caught that last one.

17 A. Focusing on all the evidence that we had,

18 not just black and white tangible, because sex assault

19 cases aren't tangible evidence. It's mostly behavior

20 and circumstantial.

21 Q. I'm getting a sense that you felt you had a

22 particular incite (sic), given your background in sex

23 assaults investigations, that wasn't being heeded in

24 this investigation.

25 A. I had a lot of incites (sic) that weren't being

Page 44

1 heeded.

2 Q. Now this list you just gave me in terms of

3 how the investigation lost its focus, the predicate of

4 that was as it related to your reputation, which is

5 what your concern is in your complaint. I'm having

6 trouble understanding how this list you just gave me

7 relates to your reputation in terms of the allegations

8 of the complaint.

9 A. And your question is what?

10 Q. How do they - how does this list relate to

11 the allegations in your complaint regarding the effect

12 on your reputation?

13 A. What isn't clear?

14 Q. Well, I mean, let's take some people wanted

15 to write books. How does that relate to your

16 reputation?

17 A. Those are the - some of those individuals

18 are the ones who were leaking information.

19 Q. And that affected your reputation?

20 A. They were the ones who put out some pretty

21 awful, wrong, false statements.

22 Q. Who are you accusing of that?

23 A. Steve Thomas.

24 Q. Anyone else?

25 A. Well, I know for sure him.

Page 45

1 Q. How do you know for sure?

2 A. And I know Tom Koby.

3 Q. How do you know for sure?

4 A. I was told.

5 Q. By whom?

6 A. People who had direct information.

7 Q. I want identities.

8 A. Of which one?

9 Q. Of who gave you this information that you

10 relied on.

11 A. For?

12 Q. For what you just said, that Steve Thomas

13 and Tom Koby were leaking information that damaged your

14 reputation.

15 A. Tom Koby told Leslie Durgin that I tried to

16 commit suicide and that I'd never be a cop again.

17 Q. Did Leslie Durgin tell you this?

18 A. Nope.

19 Q. Who told you that?

20 A. Priscilla White, who heard it from Leslie

21 Durgin.

22 Q. Double hearsay; is that correct?

23 MR. JONES: Object to the extent it calls

24 for a legal conclusion.

25 Q. (BY MR. HALABY). Do you know what I mean by

Page 46

1 double hearsay? You're a former police officer,

2 investigator.

3 A. Third-hand.

4 Q. So you believe it to be true?

5 A. I believed he made the statement, yes.

6 Q. Okay. Any other leaks that you attribute

7 to Tom Koby that you said damaged your reputation?

8 A. That was a pretty powerful one in and of

9 itself.

10 Q. I'm not talking about how powerful that one

11 was, I'm just asking if there were any others in terms

12 of what you're alleging.

13 A. That I can say for sure? That one, no.

14 Q. So that's the main leak that you would

15 relate to Tom Koby?

16 A. That's the main statement I can attribute

17 to him, yes.

18 Q. All right. And the other one you mentioned

19 was Steve Thomas. Can you specify in a similar way

20 what you attribute to him?

21 A. He spoke to Annie Bardok at Vanity Fair.

22 He's a leak.

23 Q. And how do you know he was a leak?

24 A. I had friends talk to me and say Bardok was

25 snooping around asking information about me, so I met

Page 47

1 with her. And I said, if you want to ask anything, ask

2 me. And I told her that everything she was planning to

3 write, the only thing she had accurate about me was

4 that I was at the Ramsey home on December 26th of 1996.

5 Q. When did you meet with Annie Bardok?

6 A. Early July. She was in Boulder.

7 Q. Of what year?

8 A. '97.

9 Q. And did she contact you or did you contact

10 her?

11 A. She - I went right to her hotel, heard she

12 was asking questions about me.

13 Q. So you initiated the contact with Annie

14 Bardok?

15 A. I told her - yeah. But I'm not done with

16 Steve Thomas, to answer your question.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. Are you ready for the -

19 Q. Why don't you go ahead with the other and

20 we'll come back.

21 A. Okay. With respect to Bardok?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. She said she had a deep throat and he was

24 deep in the investigative team with the Boulder Police

25 Department. And I know from the person who told me

Page 48

1 That Bardok was snooping around about me that Bardok

2 got a page. Bardok met with her deep throat source

3 July 4th for eight hours.

4 Q. Who told you that?

5 A. Lisa.

6 Q. Lisa Durgin or Leslie Durgin?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Who's Lisa?

9 A. A friend of mine who called an acquaintance

10 who called me and said Bardok's asking a lot of

11 questions about me.

12 Q. Lisa who? What's her last name?

13 A. I don't remember her last name.

14 Q. You said she was a friend of yours.

15 A. She's an acquaintance. I hadn't heard from

16 her in about three years.

17 Q. What kind of acquaintance?

18 A. An acquaintance.

19 Q. How could we identify her if we wanted to

20 talk to her?

21 A. I can try to figure out her last name. I

22 don't remember right now, but -

23 Q. Does she live in Boulder?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Where does she live?

Page 49

1 A. Lafayette.

2 Q. And what does she do?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. How good an acquaintance was she? I mean,

5 when she came to you with this information -

6 A. I'd say very good.

7 Q. But you don't remember her last name?

8 A. I didn't see her for a few years, and I

9 haven't really talked to her since then.

10 Q. But this was back in July of 1997. You

11 can't recall that name?

12 A. I could picture her face.

13 Q. Do you have any notes or anything in your

14 possession that would help you refresh your

15 recollection in that regard?

16 A. I don't.

17 Q. All right.

18 A. We used to play ball against each other.

19 That's how I knew her.

20 Q. All right. But - so in July of '97 you

21 initiate the contact with Amy Bardok?

22 A. Annie.

23 Q. Annie, A-N-N-I-E?

24 A. I think so.

25 Q. All right. And then she was the author of

Page 50

1 the article that eventually appeared in Vanity Fair?

2 A. Uh-huh.

3 Q. That's yes?

4 A. Oh yes. Sorry.

5 Q. And so I take it the way that went, and the

6 the way reporters often work, is I'm going to tell you what

7 I have and you confirm or deny it. Is that the way it

8 went?

9 A. It went that I asked her, "Why are you

10 asking questions about me to other people." She said,

11 "Tell me about the Ramsey case." And I said, "I can't

12 do that. You know that." "Well, I'm going to write

13 this big article." "Well, what are you going to write

14 about me." And she listed whatever she listed, and I

15 don't remember whatever - I said, "You don't have

16 anything right except I was there at the Ramsey home on

17 December 26th."

18 Q. Were some of the thing she listed, some of

19 the matters you allege in your complaint, were false

20 and damaged your reputation?

21 A. I believe they are.

22 Q. Most of them?

23 A. Unless I compared her article, I don't

24 know.

25 Q. Well, are you familiar with what you've set

Page 51

1 forth in your complaint as to specific items? You

2 recall doing that in your complaint, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you recall what those were? I'd be glad

5 to show them to you to refresh your recollection.

6 A. It would help.

7 Q. You filed an Amended Complaint and then the

8 First Amended Complaint, but I don't think those

9 allegations changed between the two complaints. I'll

10 show you what is the First Amended and Supplemental

11 Complaint. That's the title of that pleading.

12 Paragraph 14, which begins, "Among the statements about

13 Detective Arndt that have appeared in one or more media

14 publications are statements to the effect that, " and

15 then this is in the context of false statements against

16 you, correct? Is that right?

17 A. Let me see and I will tell you.

18 Q. Look at 14 and the subparagraphs under

19 that.

20 A. Yes, those are some of the false

21 statements.

22 Q. And when putting together this complaint

23 with your attorneys, did you attempt to include all of

24 those you could recall?

25 A. I tried.

Page 52

1 Q. Okay. Do you feel you were substantially

2 successful in doing that?

3 A. I think we named the ones that I was aware

4 of.

5 Q. Okay. In reviewing that now, are there any

6 others that you would add?

7 A. Those are the main ones I remember.

8 Q. And I just want to give you an opportunity

9 right now if you remember any others to so state for

10 the record.

11 A. That I bonded with Patsy, that's not on

12 here.

13 Q. Okay. And you'd like to add that to that

14 list; is that right?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. All right. So getting back to the contact

17 you made with Annie Bardok of Vanity Fair.

18 A. Bardok.

19 Q. How do you spell that?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. B-A-R-D-O-K?

22 A. It's good enough for her.

23 Q. It's good enough for the reporter?

24 A. Yes. Annie Bardok.

25 Q. Understanding you don't have a specific

Page 53

1 recollection of all these matters she brought to

2 your attention, to the best of your recollection did it

3 generally involve those items you listed in paragraph

4 14 of the Amended Complaint?

5 A. Well, without looking at the Vanity Fair

6 article, I'd say some of them were included here.

7 Q. All right. But - and your recollection of

8 the Vanity Fair article, if anyone were to read that

9 article, you would deny any of those statements

10 relating to you in that article that explicitly or

11 implicitly indicated subperformance on your part?

12 A. I don't remember much about the article,

13 but what she wrote about me was not true.

14 Q. Okay. Just so we have a reference in the

15 record, when was this Vanity Fair article published?

16 A. September or October of '97.

17 Q. Prior to your GMA interview, had you

18 ever -

19 A. I'm not done answering that question.

20 Q. Oh. Please finish.

21 A. Okay. That was about the leaks, correct?

22 Q. Right.

23 A. Let's see. A reporter from the Post,

24 Denver Post, Marilyn Robinson, called me. And now I

25 don't remember when this was, but I believe I was still

Page 54

1 actively on the Ramsey team. She had called me before

2 when I had cases she reported on.

3 Q. Is this the Denver Post?

4 A. Yeah. Yes. And I told her that what her

5 colleague, Chuck Green, was writing in the paper was

6 not true with regards to me. And she said, "Well, he's

7 here today. You want to tell him," so I said sure.

8 And she transferred me to Chuck Green and I told him

9 that what she was saying, what he was saying, what I

10 was told he was saying on the Peter Boyle's radio show,

11 none of it was true with respect to me. And Chuck

12 Green told me that he had sources high up in the police

13 department. Unless I gave him specifics, he chose to

14 believe them instead of me.

15 Q. And what was your response?

16 A. I think I hung up.

17 Q. Does that pretty much describe your

18 conversation with Chuck Green?

19 A. I think so.

20 Q. And does it pretty much summarize your

21 conversation with Marilyn Roberts?

22 A. Robinson. Yes, I think so.

23 Q. And did Chuck Green disclose to you the

24 identity of these high sources?

25 A. No, he did not.

Page 55

1 Q. Did you ever come to a conclusion as to who

2 those high sources were?

3 A. I don't know who they all were.

4 Q. Do you know who any of them were?

5 A. No.

6 Q. All right. So you had contact with Annie

7 Bardok, Marilyn Robinson, Chuck Green. Anybody else?

8 MR. JONES: Objection, vague.

9 Q. (BY MR. HALABY) In terms of media contact.

10 A. To tell them that what they'd said was

11 wrong with respect to the Ramsey case?

12 Q. Yeah. Any conversation relating to the

13 Ramsey case.

14 A. Just the local ones that called, but I

15 don't remember who they were.

16 Q. And what was the nature of your

17 conversation - local media?

18 A. Uh-huh.

19 Q. Local meaning which locality?

20 A. Boulder reporters.

21 Q. Boulder reporters?

22 A. Uh-huh.

23 Q. For what publications?

24 A. The Camera and the News, the Rocky Mountain

25 News.

Page 56

1 Q. Would they frequently call you during the

2 course of this investigation?

3 A. I don't remember frequency. I just know

4 that I had gotten calls.

5 Q. And what was the nature of these calls, did

6 they know what you were doing in the investigation?

7 A. Some were.

8 Q. Giving you the opportunity to comment on

9 allegations being made against your conduct in the

10 investigation?

11 A. Most people didn't know my role until April

12 of '97 because it wasn't public. And the local people

13 also knew that I wasn't going to talk to them and give

14 them specific information.

15 Q. So now just talking about the reporters

16 from the Boulder Camera and Rocky Mountain News,

17 when they contacted you, what would you tell them?

18 A. There weren't specific questions I remember

19 being asked about the Ramsey case. I remember being

20 asked which direction they should look in, and I said I

21 can't tell you. I remember Ali Krupski calling, and

22 she was a reporter for The Camera.

23 Q. Spell her name for the reporter.

24 A. A-L-I K-R-U-P-S-K-I, I think. I remember

25 her saying that a lot of people that she had talked to

Page 57

1 in her investigation of the JonBenet murder refused to

2 talk to the Boulder Police Department because of the

3 way they were treated by the Boulder Police Department

4 and members of the investigative team.

5 Q. They refused to talk to her did you say?

6 A. They didn't want to talk to the police

7 department but these people.

8 Q. Wait. Start that over, because I lost it.

9 A. I lost it. The people, her sources, Ali's

10 sources, didn't want to talk to members of the Boulder

11 Police Department because of the treatment the Boulder

12 Police Department members had given people that they

13 were interviewing.

14 Q. So Ali's sources -

15 A. Let me finish.

16 Q. Yeah. I'm sorry.

17 A. And she specifically said that Steve Thomas

18 and Ron Gosage were strong-arming people and

19 roughhousing people, including herself, and the only

20 person at the police department her sources would talk

21 to or they would consider talking to would be me.

22 Q. So when she was referring to her sources,

23 these were witnesses to the investigation?

24 A. My understanding, it was people she'd

25 talked to.

Page 58

1 Q. Who were witnesses to the conversation?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. Okay. Do you recall the Rocky Mountain

4 News reporter you talked to?

5 A. Kevin McCullum. I don't know how to spell

6 his last name.

7 Q. C-U-L-L-U-M?

8 A. I don't know if it's McCullum or McCullen.

9 Q. Did you speak to any other reporters at

10 those two publications?

11 A. Well, let me think. I'd like to just -

12 what I remember for Kevin?

13 Q. You bet.

14 A. He was going to do an anniversary issue or

15 piece December 0f '97, and he asked if I would talk to

16 him, I said, "No, I can't." He said, "I know you've

17 been scapegoated. A lot of us in the media know you've

18 been the scapegoat and what they say hasn't been true

19 about you. But unless you talk to us, we can't change

20 the record." I said, "I can't talk to you. I will

21 lose my job. You know that."

22 Q. In terms of the specific details of the

23 investigation, other than with Annie Bardok -

24 A. She never got specific.

25 Q. Well, I thought you indicated that she gave

Page 59

1 you the facts that were going to be included in her

2 article and that you said none of it was true about

3 you?

4 A. Her giving me information?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. Yes. I didn't give her information.

7 Q. Okay. Would you agree by stating those

8 facts are untrue, that's information?

9 A. I - well, it's a response.

10 Q. It's a response and it communicates some

11 information to her as to whether those facts are right

12 or wrong, correct?

13 A. Yes, it does. I wasn't done with the leak

14 part.

15 Q. Go ahead.

16 A. Schiller. You asked if anyone else had

17 contacted me. Larry Schiller did. I refused to talk

18 to him. Charlie Brennan did.

19 Q. When did Schiller contact you, and will you

20 spell his name for the reporter?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. S-C-H-I-L-L-E-R?

23 A. It sounds good. It's when I was on -

24 probably July, June, May, June of '97 all the way

25 through the fall until I told him to stop calling or

Page 60

1 I'd consider it harassment.

2 Q. You knew he was writing a book?

3 A. He said he was writing a book. The same

4 thing with Charlie Brennan.

5 Q. And you have read Schiller's book?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did Brennan write a book?

8 A. With Schiller. And there's Craig Lewis.

9 Q. And who's he?

10 A. He's an editor for some tabloid. I think

11 the Globe.

12 Q. Did he make repeated contacts with you?

13 A. He did.

14 Q. And did you ever confirm or deny facts

15 with him?

16 A. Always told him to leave.

17 Q. He came to your house?

18 A. Yes, he did.

19 Q. On how many occasions?

20 A. I don't remember.

21 Q. Several?

22 A. I remember he came to the house and I

23 remember he called, and I don't remember any others.

24 Q. Any other media contacts?

25 A. John South with The Enquirer kept calling.

Page 61

1 Q. South?

2 A. Yes. That's how you spell his name.

3 Q. Did you ever talk to him?

4 A. I told him to leave. There was some woman

5 from The Globe that would sit in my neighborhood. I

6 called her at her hotel and told her not to have

7 contact. A lot of tabloids.

8 Q. Was this all happening in '97?

9 A. A lot of it was in the summer of '97

10 through the fall.

11 Q. In '98 did it substantially drop?

12 A. Well, I was working instead of at home, so

13 it was done more in the work context.

14 The other things with leaks is that

15 Schiller - Steve Thomas talked to Schiller and was,

16 Schiller got to be so annoyed by Thomas' frequent

17 contacts that he'd tell him to stop calling him.

18 Q. That's what Schiller told you?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Who told you that?

21 A. Mimi - you know.

22 Q. Mimi Wesson?

23 A. Uh-huh.

24 Q. W-E-S-S-O-N?

25 A. Yes.

Page 62

1 Q. And who's she?

2 A. She's an attorney in Boulder.

3 Q. And what was the source of her information?

4 A. Larry Schiller.

5 Q. So she told you that Schiller told her,

6 Mimi, that Steve Thomas was making repeated contacts

7 with Larry Schiller and which annoyed Larry Schiller?

8 A. The contacts were so numerous.

9 Q. That it annoyed Larry Schiller?

10 A. That it became an annoyance.

11 Q. Did Schiller, based on the information that you

12 received, incorporate any of the information Steve

13 Thomas gave him in his book?

14 A. Well, from what I was told, there was

15 conversation - yeah. There's a lot of information.

16 Q. That Steve Thomas was the source of, in

17 Larry Schiller's book?

18 A. I don't know if he's named as a source.

19 Q. But based on the information you received,

20 he was the source; is that correct?

21 A. He was the source.

22 Q. We're kind of going down two paths here

23 between leaks and press contacts.

24 A. We are, but -

25 Q. Keep going.

Page 63

1 A. I hope that's more clear to you now how that

2 goes to, how my reputation was harmed by the gag order

3 and how it was imposed and not imposed and then the

4 information that came out as a result of no one

5 correcting the record and me not being allowed to.

6 Q. Well, leaks are a specific allegation in

7 your complaint, correct?

8 A. I believe they are.

9 Q. Okay. And that's - so I want to make sure

10 at least to the best of your recollection, we're

11 covering all of the leaks that you reference when you

12 make that allegation in your complaint. Any other

13 leaks that you haven't already testified to?

14 A. Those are the known ones. There were

15 clearly many.

16 Q. All right. Those are the only ones known to

17 you at this time?

18 A. That's a bad way of phrasing it, yes.

19 Excuse me.

20 Q. Let's take a break. We've been going a

21 while.

22 (Short recess.)

23 Q. (BY MR. HALABY) I believe when we broke off

24 we were discussing the leaks and the media contacts.

25 Have you addressed all, everything in that category

Page 64

1 that you're alleging in terms of the leaks?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. Any other media contacts that you

4 haven't disclosed in your deposition up to now?

5 A. That includes the deluge of everyone who's

6 contacted me.

7 Q. Yeah. And you can explain that in any

8 terms you want, if they were just momentary contacts,

9 or you can summarize or any way you want to present it.

10 A. So I'm clear, you're asking me every media

11 person who's contacted me with regards to the Ramsey

12 case?

13 Q. To the best of your recollection.

14 A. Oh golly. Denver local newspapers, Denver

15 local TV, national news magazine programs. I don't

16 remember the list.

17 Q. What time frame was this occurring?

18 A. '98 through -

19 Q. Well, you were mentioning '97. You just

20 mentioned '98. Did they start in -

21 A. Well, some - different ones. It's been

22 all throughout.

23 Q. But when did the contacts with you first

24 start?

25 A. When did people first contact me?

Page 65

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. I think I already told you.

3 Q. Well, if you did, I can't recall. Pardon

4 me.

5 A. Sometime after the Ramsey case began.

6 Q. In December or January?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. But sometime during that period?

9 A. I don't remember.

10 Q. Did we ever establish it anymore than that

11 in the deposition? I mean, was it within - I think -

12 now I think we said within the first, or you suggested

13 it was within the first month of the investigation.

14 A. That's when I knew there was extensive

15 coverage.

16 Q. But were you being contacted within the

17 first month?

18 A. I don't remember.

19 Q. Now, wasn't it generally known that you and

20 Detective Trujillo were the lead co-detectives on this

21 investigation, wasn't that public knowledge from the

22 beginning?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Because you indicated it wasn't public

25 knowledge until April of '97, and I was just curious

Page 66

1 about that.

2 A. I don't know what the public knew and when

3 they knew it.

4 Q. All right. What made you think that it

5 wasn't until April of '97 that your role first became

6 known publicly?

7 A. That's when the search warrants were

8 unsealed in the Ramsey case.

9 Q. Now, in the various media contacts you've

10 referenced in your deposition, in specific and in

11 summary form, were you ever asked to admit or deny

12 certain facts by anyone other than Miss Bardok?

13 MR. JONES: Objection to the form of the

14 question. Misstates prior testimony.

15 THE DEPONENT: I don't remember with Miss Bardok

16 that she asked questions. I remember she said, she

17 told me what her story was going to be about and I told

18 you - I gave you my answer.

19 Q. (BY MR. HALABY) You've dealt with the

20 media a lot, right?

21 A. Before or after Ramsey?

22 Q. In your career?

23 A. Nothing compares to after Ramsey.

24 Q. And it's not unusual for the media to try

25 to get you to give them information, to throw out these

Page 67

1 facts and ask you to say are they true or not true? I

2 mean, hasn't that been your experience?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And isn't this similar to what Miss Bardok

5 did in terms of saying these are the facts, I'm going to

6 write to give you an opportunity to say they were

7 either true or not true?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Isn't that what she did and isn't that what

10 you did?

11 A. No, no.

12 Q. Well, when you say she said this is the

13 story I'm going to write and you then respond none of

14 those facts about me are true, isn't that - without

15 getting in a semantic problem here, isn't that

16 essentially what occurred?

17 MR. JONES: Objection to the form of the

18 question, argumentative.

19 THE DEPONENT: Miss Bardok wanted me to tell her

20 specifics about the case, which I did not do.

21 Q. (BY MR. HALABY) She wanted you to volunteer

22 facts.

23 A. She wanted me to provide facts.

24 Q. Right. She wanted you to be the source of

25 new facts that she didn't have; correct? She wanted

Page 68

1 you to volunteer information to her, correct?

2 A. She wanted - yes.

3 Q. All right. And did you agree or refuse to?

4 A. I didn't give her an interview.

5 Q. So you refused to?


6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. So when you refused to

8 voluntarily provide her information, she then said

9 well these facts are the facts I'm including in my story?

10 A. I don't remember how she presented it.

11 Q. But in essence, that's what she did, here's

12 my story, these are the facts I'm putting in my story,

13 correct?

14 A. As I remember, yes.

15 Q. And then you said those facts referring to

16 me are false in essence?

17 A. I said the only thing she had correct was

18 that I was at the Ramsey home on December 26th.

19 Q. And everything else about you was false?

20 A. I told you what I said.

21 Q. Okay. But that was a clear inference you

22 wanted to give her, that everything else was false

23 about you, correct?

24 A. Her information, other than what I told

25 her, was not correct.

Page 69

1 Q. And was your conversation with her in this

2 regard just as it related to your involvement in the

3 investigation, or was that also related to other facts

4 in the article that didn't directly involve you?

5 A. Could you ask me again just one question at

6 a time?

7 Q. You bet. In other words, you just told me

8 that the facts in the story that concerned your role in

9 the investigation, you in essence told her, was false,

10 except for the fact that you were in the Ramsey home on

11 December 27th, right?

12 A. No. You said 27th. 26th.

13 Q. 26th. I'm sorry. But given that date

14 change, is that correct? Is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And my next question is in the same

17 context, did she want you to comment on any other facts

18 that she said were going to be in her story to

19 determine whether or not you believed those were

20 accurate or inaccurate facts that did not directly

21 involve you?

22 A. No.

23 Q. So your conversation with Miss Bardok was

24 as it related specifically to the facts she was going

25 to have in her story concerning your conduct in the

Page 70

1 investigation?

2 A. It was about - the conversation was about

3 what she was going to write with regards to me, yes.

4 Q. How did she present these facts to you?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 Q. Did she show you a draft of her article?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Was it verbal?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did she show you anything in writing?

11 A. No.

12 Q. How long did you meet with her?

13 A. Maybe five minutes.

14 Q. Did she ask for a follow-up interview?

15 A. No.

16 Q. I'm not sure if you answered this question.

17 Forgive me if you have, but in any of your other

18 contacts with any of these media sources, did

19 anyone in a similar fashion give you facts to allow you

20 to comment to them as to whether or not those were

21 accurate facts?

22 MR. JONES: Object to the form of the

23 question. I still think it misstates testimony. Go

24 ahead.

25 THE DEPONENT: Bardok was the only one I

Page 71

1 remember that said this is what I'm going to write

2 about you, Linda.

3 Q. (BY MR. HALABY) But other reporters could

4 say, now this is information I have, A, B, C and D, to

5 give you the opportunity to indicate to them whether

6 that was accurate information. Was that ever done with

7 anyone other than Miss Bardok?

8 A. If it was, I don't remember commenting or

9 saying I can't comment.

10 Q. Do you remember during the course of your


11 involvement in the investigation your seeing or hearing

12 something that quoted you in a media disclosure?

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. Did you keep a scrapbook or a file on any

15 of the media reports?

16 A. No.

17 Q. So you didn't collect this information and

18 preserve it in any fashion?

19 A. The newspapers, no I didn't.

20 Q. And haven't?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Now, you said Steve Thomas was the source

23 of Annie Bardok's article; is that correct?

24 A. He was a source.

25 Q. And you learned of that through whom?

Page 72

1 A. Well, through the totality of reading the

2 article.

3 Q. Well, you said somebody told you that.

4 A. Somebody told me about Bardok.

5 Q. No. That - okay. But no one - all

6 right. Let me clarify this.

7 So you were never told by anyone that Steve

8 Thomas was the source of facts contained in Annie

9 Bardok's article?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And it's only based on the facts she told

12 you were in the article you surmised the source had to

13 be Steve Thomas?

14 MR. JONES: Object to the form. It

15 misstates prior testimony.

16 THE DEPONENT: Part of - that is part of

17 the answer.

18 Q. (BY MR. HALABY) That is partly correct?

19 A. Partly correct.

20 Q. Okay. What part is correct and what part

21 isn't correct?

22 A. The comment made by Miss Bardok about her

23 deep throat being deep in the investigative team.

24 Q. You, on your own, concluded - well, you

25 said Lisa told you that deep throat was Steve Thomas,

Page 73

1 isn't that right?

2 MR. JONES: Object to the form. Misstates

3 prior testimony.

4 THE DEPONENT: No, that's not right.

5 Q. (BY MR. HALABY) I'm sorry. What did you

6 say Lisa told you?

7 A. That Annie Bardok was snooping around

8 asking questions about me.

9 Q. All right. I'm sorry for my

10 misrecollection.

11 I just want to get to the central point,

12 that in terms of your concluding that Steve Thomas was

13 a source in Annie Bardok's article in the Vanity Fair,

14 that conclusion was reached not by somebody identifying

15 Steve Thomas to you but by what you surmised by reading

16 the article?

17 A. That's partly correct, yes.

18 Q. All right. Can you expand on it though?

19 A. Part of it is the information contained in

20 the article, the words, the language used are what was

21 Bardok, her comments to me, and part of it was the

22 circumstances that evolved.

23 Q. Have you ever had that confirmed to you

24 that Steve Thomas was her source?

25 A. No.

Page 74

1 Q. And do you believe Steve Thomas was her

2 source for the negative comments about you that

3 appeared in the article?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you believe anyone else was her source

6 for any of the negative comments that appeared in the

7 article about you?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Do you know of any other - let me go back.

10 You mentioned that Tom Koby was responsible for

11 a leak relating to what you said was that you tried to

12 commit suicide and would never be a cop again. Do you

13 recall that testimony?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you said that was told to the mayor, is

16 that correct, Leslie Sturgin?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And your source of that information was

19 Priscilla White?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who heard this from the mayor, is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did that information - that wasn't leaked

25 to the media though, was it?

Page 75

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. You don't know, do you?

3 A. I said I don't know.

4 Q. Okay, okay. So we're getting to a

5 semantical issue again in terms of how you define leak.

6 Would you define that for me as you used it in the

7 complaint?

8 A. Unauthorized information given to someone.

9 Q. So when the Chief of Police talks to the

10 Mayor, that's unauthorized?

11 A. Unauthorized information given to someone

12 is how I define leak.

13 Q. So when the Chief of Police tells the

14 Mayor, you consider what the Chief of Police tells the

15 Mayor to be a leak to the Mayor, just so I know your

16 definition of that term?

17 MR. JONES: Object to the form of the

18 question.

19 THE DEPONENT: If he's going to give false

20 statements, it's not a leak. It's a false statement.

21 Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Okay. And the only reason

22 I characterized it as a leak is because when I asked

23 you a question about leaks, that's the first one you

24 mentioned so that's why I'm pursuing that. But I think

25 you've clarified to me now, and correct me if I'm

Page 76

1 wrong, but you've clarified it that you don't consider

2 that a leak but just conveying false information?

3 A. What Koby did in his conversation with

4 Durgin, false information.

5 Q. Okay. You're not alleging that Tom

6 Koby ever gave this information to the media?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. So you're not alleging it then?

9 A. I'm saying I don't know if he did or

10 didn't.

11 Q. You'd only allege what you thought to be a

12 fact, correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So you're not alleging that?

15 A. I'm not excluding it.

16 Q. Well, you know, we are not playing games

17 here, Miss Arndt. I've got to know exactly what you're

18 alleging regarding Tom Koby. It's obviously a very

19 serious matter. So what I'm gathering from what you're

20 telling me is that you're not alleging that Tom Koby

21 leaked this information about you trying to commit

22 suicide to any member of the media? Is that a correct

23 statement?

24 A. I'm saying that I don't know if he did or

25 didn't. I know it's semantics, but I don't know how to

Page 77

1 answer it.

2 Q. Okay. Let me then follow up and see if I

3 can clarify it further. You have no information then

4 that he leaked that information, the idea of your

5 committing suicide, to any media source; is that

6 correct?

7 A. I don't know who he made that statement to.

8 Q. And so it is correct that you have no such

9 information that he ever gave that information to any

10 member of the media?

11 A. I do not. I do not.

12 Q. You do - well, we got to clarify it for

13 the record. We're getting double negatives.

14 A. All right.

15 Q. So it is correct to state that you have no

16 information that Tom Koby ever gave that information

17 concerning your committing suicide to any member of

18 media, that is correct?

19 A. Trying to commit suicide, yes.

20 Q. And the only one you can name as per

21 leaking formation of the investigation to the media

22 is Steve Thomas?

23 A. About the investigation, yes.

24 Q. Now would you agree that in the nature of

25 your complaint, it deals with your public reputation,

Page 78

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And would you agree that anything Tom Koby

4 said to the Mayor that wasn't disclosed publicly would

5 not affect your public reputation?

6 A. I don't understand.

7 Q. If your complaint relates to your public

8 reputation, in other words, how the public viewed you,

9 would you agree that anything the Chief of Police told

10 the Mayor that was not disclosed to the media would not

11 affect that public perception of you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You wouldn't agree with that or you would

14 agree with that?

15 A. I would not agree with that.

16 Q. And tell me why.

17 A. Whatever statement Tom Koby makes to Mayor

18 Durgin, whether she chooses to make that in a public,

19 available to the public, however he chooses, or it gets

20 out to the public, either way still attributes to my

21 reputation.

22 Q. So are you alleging that that got out to

23 the public and, if so, what are the facts you are

24 relying on in that regard?

25 A. Yes.

Page 79

1 Q. You are alleging that that conversation

2 that Tom Koby had with the Mayor Leslie Durgin got out

3 to the public, you are alleging that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what's the source of your facts in

6 that?

7 A. Priscilla White is the one who told me, and

8 she's in the public.

9 Q. Was it ever in any publication?

10 A. Not that I'm aware of.

11 Q. So as far as you know, the only one outside

12 of Tom Koby and Leslie Durgin that would be aware of

13 this was Priscilla White?

14 A. No.

15 Q. As far as you know?

16 A. As far as I can say.

17 Q. So as far as you can say, only three people

18 were aware of this, Tom Koby, Leslie Durgin and

19 Priscilla White, as far as you can say?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And then, just so I'm absolutely clear,

22 since your complaint at least in part concerns leaks,

23 Steve Thomas is the only one you can identify that

24 leaked any facts to the media?

25 A. He's the only one I can name.

Page 80

1 Q. Okay. Is there a way you can identify

2 somebody else without naming them that that would be in

3 that same context of your allegation of leaks?

4 A. No. It's clear there were others, but -

5 Q. Okay. Do you have any information that

6 John Eller leaked any information about you to the

7 media?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you have any information that Mark

10 Beckner leaked any information about you to the media?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You mentioned a gag order early on in your

13 testimony today. I'm not sure you really had an

14 opportunity to specify all of the parameters of that

15 gag order as you understood it to be, and I'd like to

16 give you that opportunity now.

17 A. I think I said it, it was that no one was

18 supposed, no one within the police department was

19 supposed to talk to the media about specifics of the

20 Ramsey case.

21 Q. And when was that gag order, as you refer

22 to it, first issued?

23 A. I don't remember the date.

24 Q. And in what form was it issued?

25 A. I don't remember.

Page 81

1 Q. Can you approximate relative to December

2 26th of 1976?

3 A. '96?

4 Q. '96.

5 MR. JONES: You're just murdering those

6 dates. I apologize for saying it that way.

7 Mr. HALABY: No pun intended I'm sure.

8 THE DEPONENT: I was so busy with the

9 investigation that the first time I was aware was when

10 Mason was taken off the case on January 5th '97.

11 Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Did you ever personally go

12 to anyone and ask that you be an exception to this gag

13 order?

14 A. Worded that way, no.

15 Q. So you personally never went to any

16 supervisor in the police department and told them I'd

17 like to be exempted from this gag order so I can make

18 some statements about my conduct to the media?

19 A. Worded that way, no.

20 Q. Now your attorney did have a conversation

21 with Tom Koby; is that correct?

22 A. One of my attorneys did.

23 Q. And that's a conversation that's set forth

24 in your complaint?

25 A. I believe it is.

Page 82

1 Q. If you'd like to review it -

2 A. It's in here, right?

3 MR. JONES: I believe it is. Why don't

4 you review page 6?

5 MR. HALABY: Just so the record is clear,

6 reviewing page 6 of the Amended Complaint.

7 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you.

8 THE DEPONENT: Yes, it's in the complaint.

9 A. (BY MR. HALABY) Okay. And for the record,

10 what does that state?

11 A. On No. 22?

12 Q. Paragraph 22; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Just read into the record.

15 A. "In October 1997 Detective Arndt, through

16 legal counsel, sent a letter attached to the original

17 complaint as part of Exhibit 1 to Defendant Koby

18 requesting that he take action to correct the public

19 record on Detective Arndt's behalf."

20 Then Paragraph 23, "Defendant Koby

21 responded by telephone. He indicated that he agreed

22 that the statements being circulated about Detective

23 Arndt were false and unjust. He agreed also that

24 correcting the record publicly about these particular

25 matters would not require the disclosure of

Page 83

1 confidential information that would compromise the

2 investigation. However, Detective Koby indicated that

3 he was not willing to go to the media and correct the

4 record about Detective Arndt."

5 Q. Who's your attorney who authored the letter

6 referenced in paragraph 22 and with whom Tom Koby had

7 the conversation as referenced in paragraph 23?

8 A. Brooke Jackson.

9 Q. When did you first retain Brooke Jackson as

10 your attorney?

11 A. I don't remember.

12 Q. Well, give me your best estimate.

13 A. Summer of '97.

14 Q. Did he approach you or did you approach

15 him?

16 A. I approached him.

17 Q. And how did you get his name?

18 A. Through someone I knew in Boulder.

19 W. Who's that?

20 A. Murray Richtel.

21 Q. Did anyone suggest to you that at that

22 point in time you would need an attorney?

23 A. I'm trying to remember if it was at that

24 time or later. Yes.

25 Q. And who was that?

Page 84

1 A. Mike Pease.

2 Q. Who's Mike Pease?

3 A. He's an officer with the Boulder Police

4 Department.

5 Q. It was his idea that you get an attorney?

6 A. He suggested that I might want to talk to

7 an attorney.

8 Q. Did he say why?

9 A. I don't remember.

10 Q. Well, how did the idea of your getting an

11 attorney come up? I mean, I assume you were having

12 some sort of conversation about what was going on in

13 the media about you. Is that the context in which an

14 attorney was suggested to you, or did it have to do

15 with some internal issues in the Department?

16 A. I was using Mike as a union rep to help,

17 hopefully resolve some internal issues within the

18 Department.

19 Q. And so he suggested you get an attorney to

20 represent your interests as to those internal issues in

21 the Department?

22 A. No. He suggested that I might want to talk

23 to an attorney, which is offered through our union.

24 Q. For what purpose?

25 A. I'm trying to remember. The issues I had

Page 85

1 with Koby and Eller and Wickman did not appear to be -

2 I couldn't work - attempts to resolve those issues

3 didn't seem to be successful.

4 Q. Could you spell Mr. Wickman's name and tell

5 us what position he held with the Department?

6 A. W-I-C-K-M-A-N. Sargeant.

7 Q. And what were those issues?

8 A. I felt I was being discriminated by

9 those three individuals.

10 Q. And specifically, in what specific ways?

11 A. One was relating to the Ramsey

12 investigation and how my treatment was different than

13 how they treated others. Another one was I was asking

14 for the Department to stand behind me and correct the

15 record, and the Department was, the Department, meaning

16 Eller and Koby was not.

17 Q. There were policy violations that were

18 going on and were being committed by certain members of

19 the Ramsey investigative team, including Wickman, and

20 they were not being addressed. And there was an issue

21 regarding impending downsizing of the Ramsey

22 investigative team.

23 Q. This was in the summer of '97?

24 A. No. This was April of '97.

25 Q. That all of this issues came up?

Page 86

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Any others than what you just listed?

3 A. Those are the main ones.

4 Q. All right. I'd like to examine each one of

5 those.

6 First of all, that you were discriminated

7 against by Koby and Eller, would you expand upon that

8 with specifics?

9 A. There was no clear command structure. The

10 command structure was changed, so with respect to the

11 Ramsey investigation, I was reporting to Wickman and

12 then Eller and then Koby, which is unprecedented.

13 Q. But there was a command structure as you

14 just described it?

15 A. There was a structure in place that was not

16 followed.

17 Q. In what respect?

18 A. For me to report to three different

19 individuals and for those individuals not to share

20 information is unprecedented.

21 Q. So you felt that the structure was you

22 would report individually to each of those officers?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And did you do so?

25 A. When called upon, yes.

Page 87

1 Q. And how was this considered by you to be

2 discrimination against you?

3 A. I had to report to three different

4 individuals, plus I gave daily reports at team

5 meetings, and no one else was under that similar

6 imposition.

7 Q. Why did you consider it an imposition?

8 A. It took time away from my investigative

9 duties.

10 Q. Did you consider it an imposition in any

11 other respect?

12 A. No.

13 Q. So you believed it was just time consuming

14 to report to four individuals as opposed to one?

15 A. It didn't make sense.

16 Q. You thought it was time consuming,

17 unnecessary time consumed?

18 A. It took me away from other, from my

19 assignments.

20 Q. And therefore, it was unnecessary time

21 consuming of your time.

22 A. It was inefficient.

23 Q. Okay. How does inefficiency, in your mind,

24 translate to discrimination against you?

25 A. I was singled out for that activity.

Page 88

1 Q. And do you think there was some sinister, or

2 other, sinister motive behind that?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. I mean, you said you were singled out. In

5 other words, was this a form of punishment in your

6 mind?

7 A. It was when I had to go into Eller's

8 office.

9 Q. Well, the fact of your, as you put it, that

10 you had to report to four different individuals, you

11 considered that intended to punish you in some respect?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. So you're not alleging that, you don't

14 know?

15 A. I'm saying I don't know.

16 Q. Okay. Did you believe that there was some

17 ulterior motive to requiring you to report to four

18 different individuals?

19        A. I don't know.

20        Q. Who told you of this requirement to report

21 to four, these four individuals?

22        A. It was expected from Wickman as a

23 supervisor. Eller would call on, call me in his office

24 almost daily, and when Koby would see me, he would ask

25 for an update often.

Page 89

1 Q. And you took this in a negative way, I take

2 it?

3          A. That it was being done was confusing.

4          Q. Okay. But I'm trying to get to the

5 discrimination aspect of it, which is the word you

6 used. I can understand confusing. I'm still trying to

7 understand discrimination. When I understand

8 discrimination, I think of some sinister motive behind

9 it, and I'm trying to search for that. Is there one,

10 to your knowledge?

11         MR. JONES: Object to the form of the

12 question.

13         THE DEPONENT: I said I don't know.

14        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) So the best you know about

15 that is there are three individuals that wanted to

16 speak to you personally about information you had

17 concerning the investigation?

18 MR. JONES: Object to the form of the

19 question. Misstates prior testimony.

20         THE DEPONENT: There were three individuals

21 that I had to report to.

22        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) And you thought this was

23 highly unusual in a high-profile case such as this?

24        A. It was highly unusual.

25        Q. And at the time they wanted to talk to you

Page 90

1 you were serving a role as co-detective leader of the

2 investigation?

3          A. Yes.

4          Q. And in that position you'd be expected to

5 know what was going on in the investigation?

6          A. Yes.

7          Q. And just to be clear, by each of those

8 three individuals wanting to talk to you personally

9 about the investigation, given your role, you

10 considered this discrimination?

11        A. It was a piece.

12        Q. And you considered it discrimination?

13        A. How they did it, yes.

14        Q. How about the fact that they did it, was

15 that discrimination, in your mind?

16        A. That was unusual.

17        Q. Did you consider it discrimination, the

18 fact that they did it?

19        A. The fact that they did it and how they did

20 it and that I was the only one was a piece that led for

21 me to feel discriminated by them.

22        Q. What about Detective Trujillo, are you

23 saying he did not have to speak individually with each

24 of those three?

25        A. Not in the way I did, if he did at all.

Page 91

1          Q. Did you ever talk to him about it?

2          A. No.

3          Q. So up to this day, you have no idea to what

4 degree, if any, Detective Trujillo was called upon to

5 speak individually with Koby, Eller and Wickman?

6          A. I don't want to double negative you or

7 anything. How did you ask that again?

8          Q. All right. To this day, is it a fact that

9 you don't know to what degree Detective Trujillo was

10 called upon to speak individually with Koby, Eller and

11 Wickman?

12        A. I don't know all of the extent.

13        Q. And you don't - in fact, you don't know

14 anything about that, do you?

15        A. Yes, I do.

16        Q. To what degree do you know something about

17 Trujillo's responsibility or requests of Trujillo to

18 speak individually with those three?

19        A. When I asked Eller why I was pulled in and

20 why not Trujillo, and when I asked why no one else had

21 to come in, he said it was just me and he never offered


22 any further explanation.

23        Q. So you got this impression from John Eller

24 that it was only you that was required to speak to each

25 of the three individually, is that correct?

Page 92

1          A. Him directly, yes.

2          Q. I'm sorry?

3          A. Him directly, yes.

4          Q. How about indirectly though?

5          A. I never heard from other team members or

6 saw that Trujillo had to report to the other three.

7          Q. Did you see this as penalizing to you?

8          A. The respective behavior of those three men

9 towards me was far less than respectful, so that -

10        Q. In what respect? Specifically as to each

11 individual, tell me how you thought they were

12 disrespectful to you in these one-on-one meetings that

13 you were just referring to.

14        A. I never said they were one-on-one.

15        A. I thought that you had indicated that you had to

16 had to speak to each one individually. Is that what you said?

17        A. I said I had to report to them.

18        Q. Well, report, does that mean speak or does

19 it mean something else to you?

20        A. It means speak.

21        Q. Okay. So why don't we go back to my

22 original question. How were each of these individuals

23 disrespectful to you in your one-on-one reporting to

24 them?

25        A. To begin with, the chain of command would

Page 93

1 have been from Wickman, as the team or the supervisor

2 in discharge of the Ramsey investigation, to report to

3 Eller and Eller to report to Koby. That's how it

4 should have taken place. And Wickman and Eller were

5 abrasive.

6 Q. What do you mean by abrasive, critical of

7 your conduct?

8          A. I'm forming the words so I can answer.

9 Disrespectful in that they had yelled and

10 abrasive. Instead of asking me to come into my office,

11 Wickman or Eller would proceed to yell at me.

12        Q. Yell at you in a critical way?

13        A. Yell at me in how they were addressing me.

14        Q. Well, I am trying to understand this. Was

15 it just the level of their voice that was disrespectful

16 or the content of what they were saying that was

17 disrespectful?

18        A. It was tone, demeanor, level, sometimes

19 content.

20        Q. My impression is that you took exception

21 more to the tone and demeanor than as to the actual

22 substance of that they were asking you.

23        A. Maybe this will help. Specifically with

24 Eller, it would be taken - he would say come into his

25 office. He would close the door, and I'd get dressed

Page 94

1 down.

2          Q. Okay. Well, that's what I was getting back

3 to before. You were being criticized for your conduct?

4          A. You're saying for conduct. This is just

5 being dressed down.

6          Q. Okay. That's your term, dressed down. You

7 got to tell me what it means. What happened?

8          A. Eller would yell at me and asked where I'd

9 been, what I had done. I told him I already told

10 Wickman. "Well you need to tell me, too." "You mean

11 Wickman didn't tell you? I told Koby. You mean

12 Koby doesn't tell you? How come you three guys aren't

13 talking to you?" This is Eller saying to me. "You're

14 withholding information." "I've been telling Wickman

15 everything. I've told the team everything. Why is it

16 that you three aren't sharing information?" So I would

17 be accused of doing something that I hadn't done.

18        Q. Did Chief Koby ever accuse you of that?

19        A. He accused me of being disrespectful during

20 meetings.

21        Q. Did he ever yell at you?

22        A. That's not his style.

23        Q. I'm sorry.

24        A. That's not his style.

25        Q. So your answer's no?

Page 95

1          A. Correct. My answer's no.

2          Q. So in this context your main complaint is

3 with John Eller?

4          A. So I'm clear, what's my context?

5          Q. The context in terms of being

6 discriminated, in terms of having to report to the

7 three individuals, Koby, Eller and Wickman, of being

8 treated disrespectfully.

9          A. On the reporting aspect, yes.

10        Q. Okay. Is there another aspect then?

11        A. Well, for the discrimination?

12        Q. Yeah.

13        A. Yes.

14        Q. And what is that?

15        A. I would be excluded from team meetings.

16        Q. Who would exclude you?

17        A. For instance, Koby, or if he wasn't the one

18 initiating it, it would be Wickman.

19        Q. So you're saying Wickman excluded you?

20        A. Correct.

21        Q. Was that with Chief Koby's knowledge, to

22 your knowledge?

23        A. I don't know.

24        Q. Okay.

25        A. I was - I went to the FBI experts when

Page 96

1 they came to town. There was a break and after that

2 break I saw Wickman talk to their head person. And

3 from that point on, whenever I asked a question, I

4 would never get an answer. And then it was later said

5 talk to your supervisor, and other detectives would get

6 answered.

7 With respect to downsizing the team, I had

8 asked Koby and Wickman and Eller when would that

9 happen, what would the process be, whose decision would

10 it be. With regards to how that, the downsizing came

11 to be, I felt discriminated because Koby and Eller had

12 both told me that I would not be on the team, and -

13        Q. What was the basis of the discrimination in

14 your view?

15        A. Oh, for that? Can I say one more thing

16 because I will forget it probably?

17        Q. Go ahead.

18        A. With discrimination, in March of '97 I had

19 called into work saying that it didn't feel safe, the

20 environment didn't feel safe, and that it felt hostile.

21 And I was speaking to someone from the Employee

22 Assistance Program, and this woman met with, had the

23 meeting with Koby and Wickman and Eller. And I said it

24 feels like those three named men are trying to get me

25 off the team, and I don't understand it. And after

Page 97

1 that meeting, she said, "You don't have any friends.

2 The three of them want you off the team. You don't

3 have friends, either of them."

4          Q. What was the name of this employee?

5          A. Marilyn Kruegel.

6          Q. Spell that for the reporter.

7          A. I think K-R-U-E-G-E-L.

8          Q. And do you know why you didn't have any

9 friends?

10        A. Well, that was a loose generalization, but

11 she said that my concerns that I had told her were -

12 she confirmed them.

13        Q. What were your concerns that you told her?

14        A. That Koby, Wickman and Eller, those three,

15 something was going on between the three of them. They

16 weren't talking. I was giving information - I was

17 being - I was being cast in a bad light between the

18 three of them. I was concerned about the

19 discrimination I mentioned and that they were looking

20 for a way to get me off the team, and it felt really

21 confusing.

22        Q. Do you know if Detective Trujillo shared

23 any of these feelings?

24        A. What feelings?

25        Q. That you've just expressed, as it related

Page 98

1 to him.

2          A. I don't.

3          Q. Did you ever talk much with Detective

4 Trujillo about it?

5          A. No.

6          Q. Did you have any talks with him about the

7 investigation as co-leaders?

8          A. A few.

9          Q. Sufficient number? Did you feel you had a

10 good communication with him in your respective roles as

11 co-leaders of this investigation?

12        A. No.

13        Q. Why is that?

14        A. Well, we were named co-leaders but Wickman

15 was the one in charge.

16        Q. Well, did you think Detective Trujillo's

17 role was diminished in that same respect as you felt

18 your role was diminished?

19        A. No.

20        Q. How was his role superior to yours then as

21 co-leaders, in your opinion?

22        A. He worked very closely with Wickman.

23        Q. So you believe he had a better rapport with

24 Sargeant Wickman than you had with Sargeant Wickman?

25        A. I believe they shared more information.

Page 99

1          Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned your role in the

2 investigation. Is that parcel of what you've already

3 again talked about, that you had a diminished role in

4 the investigation?

5          A. When do you mean?

6          Q. During this period that you're speaking of

7 in terms of how you were being treated. You can

8 provide the time line.

9          A. Oh, I was being excluded.

10        Q. During what period? When did you first

11 feel you were being excluded in the course of this

12 investigation?

13        A. When I first felt it? Once Mason was taken

14 off.

15        Q. And after Mason was taken off, you felt you

16 were now being excluded; is that correct?

17        A. Oh, that's when I first felt that, yes.

18        Q. Did it have anything to do with Mason being

19 taken off, the fact that you were being excluded or

20 having a sense of your being excluded?

21        A. Well, now I'm confused. I don't know what

22 you're asking. I thought you just asked that.

23        Q. No. You said you first started feeling

24 excluded when Mason was taken off the case; is that

25 correct?

Page 100

1          A. The first time that I felt like my role was

2 diminished, yes.

3          Q. Okay. My next question is simply is there

4 a causal connection between the two, basically Mason

5 being taken off the case and you being excluded?

6          A. I don't know. There may have.

7          Q. Well, I'm not asking you to speculate. I'm

8 only asking you if you have knowledge of that. Do you?

9 No is a perfectly fine answer if you don't know.

10        A. I'm sorry. I still don't even understand

11 what you're asking.

12        Q. Do you believe there was a connection

13 between Mason being taken off the case and your being

14 excluded from the investigation?

15        A. I don't know.

16        Q. That's a perfectly fine answer.

17         When was Mason taken off the case?

18        A. January 5th, '97.

19        Q. So you felt your role was diminished within

20 ten days of the murder?

21        A. Well, as you asked me when did I first feel

22 that, so that was my first time that I felt.

23        Q. Excluded, diminished in your role?

24        A. Concerned for my role.

25        Q. Okay. Well, the reason I used excluded and

Page 101

1 diminished is because those were your words. Now,

2 you're free to change those words if that's what you're

3 now doing. Is that what you're now doing?

4          A. Given the current context, yes. The words

5 I'm using now fit for what you're asking me.

6          Q. All right. So the record is clear, at the

7 time Mason was taken off on January 5th, '97, how

8 would you characterize your feeling about your role in

9 the investigation?

10        A. My role? Deep in it, the players I had to

11 work with, concerned.

12         MR. HALABY: Could you read that back?

13 (Record read by reporter as requested.)

14        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) What do you mean by that,

15 deep in it?

16        A. That I was deeply involved in the

17 investigation.

18        Q. Well, you were a co-leader?

19        A. Well, I was deeply involved in the

20 investigation. You can call it what you like.

21        Q. Well, I'm just really having trouble,

22 because when you say deeply involved in the

23 investigation, you're one of the main players. Is that

24 what you meant?

25        A. I had a lot of key information, yes.

Page 102

1          Q. All right. So to me, that doesn't mean

2 you've been excluded or diminished when you feel you're

3 deeply involved in the investigation.

4          A. So you're asking me what?

5          Q. I'm asking you when you say on the one hand

6 you're deeply involved in the investigation, on the

7 other hand you use words such as your role is

8 diminished or you're being excluded. I'm having

9 trouble reconciling those two concepts, and I'm asking

10 you to help me understand in regard to how do you

11 reconcile those concepts you talked about?

12        A. That's what - I had both of those going on

13 at the same time.

14        Q. I'm getting a sense here that you felt you

15 had important opinions about how this investigation

16 should be conducted and what should be considered and

17 how certain evidence should be valued that you believe


18 wasn't being listened to; is that correct?

19        A. Yes.

20        Q. And because of that, this was a source of a

21 lot of your feelings how you were being treated; is

22 that right?

23        A. It was a source, not an exclusive source.

24        Q. But it was one of the most primary factors

25 in your feeling that you weren't being respected in

Page 103

1 this investigation; is that correct?

2          A. No.

3          Q. The fact that you didn't think you were

4 being listened to. Your answer's no?

5          A. The way you worded it, my answer's no.

6          Q. Well, explain for me why you said that.

7          A. You said something about the primary

8 reason -

9          Q. You felt disrespected -

10        A. Correct.

11        Q. - was because you weren't being listened

12 to when you felt you had more contributions to give, to

13 make this investigation.

14        A. And I said no.

15        Q. And why?

16        A. It wasn't the primary fact.

17        Q. What was the primary fact?

18        A. I don't know that there is a primary fact.

19        Q. Was it an important fact, that you were

20 feeling disrespected?

21        A. It was a fact.

22        Q. Was it one of the more important facts in

23 your feeling that you were disrespected?

24        A. I can tell you that it was a fact.

25        Q. And what were the other facts then that led

Page 104

1 you to this feeling of being disrespected in addition

2 to your feeling you were not being listened to as to

3 the support contribution you could have made?

4          A. I think I've already talked to you about

5 them.

6          Q. You talked to me about it in terms of John

7 Eller yelling at you.

8          A. Right.

9          Q. Anything else?

10        A. Excluded from meetings.

11        Q. Excluded from meetings?

12        A. I had to report to three individuals,

13 including the team; having to account for all of my

14 time; having to be present at the police department all

15 the time and yet expected to do interviews outside in

16 the field; being criticized if I was late for a meeting

17 in front of everyone publicly; having my loyalty

18 questioned.

19        Q. This is all in that concept of your feeling

20 you were singled out; is that right?

21        A. Well, you were talking about disrespect.

22        Q. But you thought you were being singled out

23 in that fashion?

24        A. I was.

25        Q. Isn't it true that you didn't show up for

Page 105

1 meetings?

2          A. No.

3          Q. So you're now stating for the record that

4 you did show up for any meetings called in connection

5 with this Ramsey investigation?

6          A. I think I made most of the meetings.

7          Q. Well, when we now start qualifying it, that

8 allows for the fact that there were some meetings you

9 didn't make. Is that what you're saying?

10        A. I don't remember. I remember being present

11 at all of the meetings.

12        Q. Okay. Isn't it true that when your

13 supervisor attempted to reach you by phone, you

14 wouldn't answer your phone?

15        A. No.

16        Q. Isn't it true that when they would leave

17 messages on the voice mail, you wouldn't respond to

18 those messages on your voice mail?

19        A. No.

20        Q. Isn't it true there were times you

21 just didn't come to work and no one knew, nobody knew

22 your whereabouts?

23        A. No.

24        Q. Isn't it true that Sargeant Wickman felt

25 that you were not communicating with him as your

Page 106

1 supervisor?

2          A. I think he said that at one meeting.

3          Q. And it's your belief there's no truth to

4 that?

5          A. No.

6          Q. That's your belief; is that correct?

7          A. That there's no truth to that.

8          Q. That you weren't communicating fully with

9 him, you believe there's no truth in that?

10        A. No.

11        Q. You do believe that or you don't believe

12 it? I'm just trying to make the record clear.

13        A. I know, but the way you ask it -

14        Q. I'm trying to ask it simply so the record's

15 clear.

16        A. Ask me again.

17        Q. Is it your belief that it was false to say

18 that you weren't fully communicating with Sargeant

19 Wickman?

20        A. Could the reporter read the question?

21 (Record read by reporter as requested.)

22        A. But I don't know if it's yes or no, which

23 way says it yes or which way says it no.

24        Q. Listen to the question.

25         MR. JONES: Or state it in a sentence,

Page 107

1 state what your belief is.

2           THE DEPONENT: I can't answer it with yes

3 or no. Can I just say?

4          Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Go ahead.

5          A. There were communication problems between

6 us.

7          Q. All right. How would you describe or define

8 those communication problems with Sargeant Wickman?

9          A. Wickman wasn't available when I tried to

10 meet with him or talk to him, and I would make repeated

11 requests. And then I would have a meeting with him and

12 then express to him my concerns at the moment and

13 things seemed fine and understood at that time. And

14 then it would go back to him being inaccessible again.

15        Q. So you think he was the cause of the

16 communication problems?

17        A. He made it difficult to communicate.

18        Q. So it was his fault that you did not have

19 good communications with him, in your opinion?

20        A. I'd say it was his lack of attempt to work

21 with me that made things difficult.

22        Q. Okay. You had no responsibility for

23 the poor communications, is that what you're saying?

24        A. I'm saying it's a two-way street and that I

25 made attempts, and that I tried.

Page 108

1          Q. Look. It's a very simple question. Are you

2 saying you had no responsibility for the poor

3 communications with Sargeant Wickman?

4          A. And I'm answering you that.

5          Q. Is that what you're saying, that you had no

6 responsibility for the poor communications with

7 Sargeant Wickman?

8           I want to know whether or not you felt you

9 had any responsibility for those poor communications.

10 Did you or didn't you, in your mind?

11        A. I'm hearing you -

12        Q. Well, answer.

13        A. I'm trying, it's -

14        Q. It's either a yes or no. You either felt

15 you had the responsibility for it or you didn't feel you

16 had responsibility for it. I don't think that's a gray

17 area there.

18         MR. JONES: Object to the form. It's

19 argumentative, and you can answer the question.

20         THE DEPONENT: As I said, it's a two-way

21 street. And it's both people trying to work toward a

22 communication issue, and I was trying to work toward

23 that.

24        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) But all I've heard from

25 you is criticism of Sargeant Wickman in terms of the

Page 109

1 communications, but I haven't heard anything from you

2 in terms of whether or not there's any self criticism

3 in terms of your role. And the fact that you didn't

4 have good communications with Sargeant Wickman, did you

5 feel you had any role in and is there any basis to

6 criticize yourself in not having good communications

7 with Sargeant Wickman?

8          A. I stopped trying.

9          Q. So you wouldn't have any criticism of

10 yourself, I take it; is that correct?

11        A. As I said, I stopped trying to make the -

12        Q. All I asked was do you have any criticism

13 of yourself in terms of the lack of good communication

14 with Sargeant Wickman?

15        A. And as I answered, I stopped trying.

16        Q. So you can't answer that yes or no, is that

17 what you're telling me?

18        A. Correct.

19        Q. All right. Let me go to the phone call that

20 Brooke Jackson had with Chief Koby. Were you present

21 when he had this phone call?

22        A. No.

23        Q. Did he tell you about it?

24        A. Yes.

25        Q. When did he tell you about it, how soon

Page 110

1 after the phone call, same day?

2          A. I don't know.

3          Q. Did you know he was going to make the phone

4 call?

5           MR. JONES: Objection to the form of the

6 question. I think it actually says that Koby made

7 the phone call.

8          Q. (BY MR. HALABY) I'm sorry. That's true and

9 that's fair.

10         You didn't know Chief Koby was going to

11 make the phone call, is that it?

12        A. Correct.

13        Q. But you can't recall whether Brooke Jackson

14 told you about the phone call on the day of or sometime

15 after?

16        A. I don't know when he told me.

17        Q. All right. Is it your recollection,

18 however, that you were informed of the phone call

19 shortly after it occurred?

20        A. Yes.

21        Q. Did Brooke Jackson indicate to you whether

22 or not he'd taped the conversation in any respect or

23 recorded it in any respect?

24         MR. JONES: You don't have to answer

25 questions about communications with your counsel beyond

Page 111

1 what they have been described here in the complaint.

2           MR. HALLABY: I vigorously disagree with

3 that. It's all fair game once this is made a part of

4 the record and part of the complaint.

5           MR. JONES: Well, I just as vigorously respond

6 that she doesn't have to talk about her

7 communications. What's described in the complaint is a

8 conversation between Chief Koby and Mr. Jackson, and

9 that's what I'm directing her not to answer about her

10 communications.

11         MR. HALABY: You don't have to raise your

12 voice. All you have to do is make the record clear

13 that you have -

14         MR. JONES: I apologize for raising my

15 voice.

16         MR. HALABY: All right. So just so we have

17 a clear record, you will not allow her to testify as to

18 any communications she had with Brooke Jackson?

19         MR. JONES: That would - communications

20 just with Mr. Jackson, yes. And I don't think we've

21 established there were any communications that she took

22 part in with Mr. Koby or any third party present.

23         MR. HALABY: Well, all right. But just so

24 we're clear, so we don't have to unnecessarily prolong

25 this deposition, my questions I have to ask her

Page 112

1 concerning her conversations with Brooke Jackson as it

2 related to his telephone call with Tom Koby, you'll

3 direct her not to answer?

4           MR. JONES: Yes.

5          Q. (BY MR. HALABY) And just so the record is

6 complete, Miss Arndt, you will follow those directions?

7          A. Yes.

8           MR. HALABY: Now we have a record.

9           And just to make sure the record is

10 absolutely clear, Mr. Jones, the basis for your

11 objection and directing her not to answer is you

12 consider it to be privileged, attorney-client

13 communications?

14         MR. JONES: Yes. Her conversations with

15 Mr. Jackson are privileged communications, as the

16 question has been asked of her.

17         MR. HALABY: And as the subject matter of

18 the inquiry has been described.

19         MR. JONES: Right.As long as I

20 understand what you're asking her is about any

21 conversations she had with Mr. Jackson concerning

22 Mr. Jackson's conversations with Chief Koby, and that's

23 what I understood you to be saying.

24         MR. HALABY: That's exactly correct.

25         MR. JONES: Then yeah, that's privileged.

Page 113

1          Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Is your only source of your

2 understanding of what the conversation was between

3 Brooke Jackson and Tom Koby, as referenced in your

4 complaint in this matter, based on your conversations

5 with Brooke Jackson?

6          A. Yes.

7          Q. Did you review the complaint before it was

8 filed?

9          A. Yes.

10        Q. And when you reviewed the complaint you saw

11 that as part of the complaint there was going to be a

12 reference to the telephone conversation between Chief

13 Koby and your attorney Brooke Jackson; is that correct?

14        A. Yes.

15        Q. And you approved the complaint to be filed

16 containing that information; is that correct?

17        A. Yes.

18         MR. HALABY: Mr. Jones, I have a thought

19 rather and that is see if we can get the magistrate on       

20 and get a ruling so we can get the issue

21 resolved quickly, because, obviously, it's a major

22 conversation for me and it goes to the cental theme of

23 the complaint.

24         MR. JONES: I'm happy to try to get

25 Magistrate Bolin on the phone, if he's available

Page 114

1           MR. HALABY: I'll have an associate do

2 that so I can continue this deposition into other

3 areas.

4           MR. JONES: That would be fine.

5           Mr. HALABY: That's the most efficient use

6 of time.

7           MR. JONES: Yeah. Let him call, and then

8 he can interrupt us if he gets him.

9 (Short recess.)

10        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Okay. My associate is now

11 attempting to contact the magistrate and see if we can

12 get this issue resolved at this time, but we'll

13 continue while we're awaiting that word.

14         Did you ever voice complaints to any of

15 your supervisors regarding concern for your security?

16        A. Yes.

17        Q. What was the nature of those concerns you

18 were expressing?

19        A. My initial report had been given to the

20 Ramsey attorneys, and I was concerned that the

21 information that was in the report that the Ramseys

22 weren't even going to be named as suspects, I was

23 concerned about the safety of myself and those close to

24 me.

25        Q. Were you urging from the beginning that the

Page 115

1 Ramseys be named as suspects publicly?

2          A. I don't remember if it was from the

3 beginning.

4          Q. I mean, you indicated that on that very day

5 when you saw John Ramsey walking up the stairs holding

6 JonBenet, you believed he was the murderer, correct?

7          A. That's when things made sense, yes.

8          Q. Okay. And I believe you said in some

9 interview that it was the look in his eyes that was one

10 of the most contributing factors in that regard; is

11 that correct?

12        A. No.

13        Q. What was it, something about his demeanor?

14 What was it?

15        A. I don't know what you're referring to, but

16 when he came up the stairs is when.

17        Q. Yeah. But what was it about his coming up

18 the stairs holding JonBenet that convinced you that he

19 was the murderer?

20        A. It was all the information I had up to that

21 time.

22        Q. Well, you didn't have all that much

23 information at that time, did you?

24        A. Well, with respect to now, no, but -

25        Q. But it was at that time, and so all I want

Page 116

1 to do is explore your mind-set at that time when you

2 concluded, as you saw him walking up the stairs with

3 the body, holding the body of JonBenet, that you

4 concluded that he was the murderer. What facts did you

5 have in your mind at that point in time?

6          A. Oh, I think I told you before. It was just

7 all the information I had beforehand and the behaviors

8 I had observed.

9          Q. Okay. So was it mostly demeanor evidence,

10 his demeanor evidence?

11        A. It was part of it. It was the totality of

12 everything I had.

13        Q. I mean, you were there approximately -

14 before arriving at this conclusion, you had been there

15 approximately five hours.

16        A. Yes.

17        Q. And during this five hours, you know, you

18 were concerned about a kidnapping and you were making

19 sure the phone was bugged; is that right?

20        A. There was -

21        Q. A recording device on the phone.

22        A. Yes.

23        Q. And you had sealed off JonBenet's bedroom.

24        A. I did, yes.

25        Q. And you had lost track of John Ramsey for a

Page 117

1 period between 10:40 and twelve o'clock?

2          A. No.

3          Q. You didn't see him during that period of

4 time; is that correct?

5          A. No.

6          Q. It's not correct?

7          A. That is not correct.

8          Q. Didn't you report - all right. You said

9 sometime between 10:40 and 12:00 he went out to pick up

10 the mail.

11        A. No.

12        Q. What did you say?

13        A. I believe I worded it in my report rather

14 vaguely, and what I worded and what has been put out in

15 the media are not the same. I said something during

16 that time frame I saw John reading his mail.

17        Q. We will get back to that later.

18         But there was a period when you lost

19 contact with him, is that right, personal contact with

20 him?

21        A. I did not watch John Ramsey the entire

22 time.

23        Q. Okay. But during this period you were

24 pretty much just standing around the Ramsey home there.

25 You weren't doing any specific investigation, isn't

Page 118

1 that correct, between 8:00 and one o'clock?

2          A. That's not correct.

3          Q. What investigation were you conducting

4 between 8:00 and one o'clock?

5          A. From 8:00 to 10:00, monitoring the

6 telephone calls. There was a supervisor who was in

7 with a few detectives at that time. There were still

8 CSIs that we were directing. Fred and I were directing

9 their evidence collection from the house.

10        Q. Were you collecting evidence?

11        A. Not specific physical evidence.

12        Q. Okay. You were collecting evidence based

13 on your observations of people?

14        A. Yes.

15        Q. And you were observing the demeanor of John

16 Ramsey during this period?

17        A. Yes.

18        Q. Did you have any suspicions at that point

19 in time?

20        A. With regard to - what kind?

21        Q. Prior to his coming up the stairs holding

22 the body of JonBenet, did you have any suspicions that

23 he might have been involved in the murder of JonBenet

24 as opposed to the fact that it appeared to be a

25 kidnapping at that time?

Page 119

1          A. No.

2          Q. When you saw him coming up with the body of

3 JonBenet, did you then go back to your recollections of

4 his demeanor earlier that morning and say these things

5 are starting to fit together as his being the murderer?

6          A. I can only tell you that at that point,

7 everything made sense that didn't make sense before.

8          Q. What was it about seeing him carry the body

9 that seemed to make sense to you that he was the

10 murderer?

11        A. It was an accumulation of -

12        Q. I can't understand you. You say you see

13 him carrying the body and now it makes sense. I just

14 can't understand where you're coming from there. If

15 you can, just explain what makes sense and why

16 specifically.

17        A. No forced entry; no tracks; no breaking in

18 the house; no sounds heard during the night; he's the

19 last one to see her; behaviors by him; between he and

20 his wife; by others; the ransom note in and of itself.

21 I can't list the whole, all of the information.

22        Q. The fact that he was able to go right down

23 in the basement and find the body and bring her up, is

24 that a part of it?

25        A. How he carried her was part of it.

Page 120

1 Q. And describe that.

2          A. Her head above his head, so he didn't see

3 her head, her face.

4          Q. Can you demonstrate how he was holding her?

5          A. (indicating)

6          Q. So you kind of have your hands together out

7 in front of you, and he kind of had her in a bear hug,

8 is that it, for a lack of any better description? If

9 you were going to go up and hug somebody, that's the

10 way he had his arms around her?

11        A. No.

12        Q. How would you describe - I'm trying to

13 describe for the record.

14        A. Arms - he had his arms around her upper

15 legs. He carried her kind of up and away from his

16 body.

17        Q. Just so I can get a proper positioning of

18 her body vis-a-vis his, would her navel have been

19 around his face area the way he was carrying her?

20        A. I'm more focused on her head.

21        Q. How far above his head was her head?

22        A. Above.

23        Q. How far above?

24        A. Above.

25        Q. Were her shoulders above his head?

Page 121

1 A. I don't remember.

2          Q. And so I understood from your report he was

3 carrying her in a fashion where she was facing him.

4          A. Correct.

5          Q. And to you, that was most unusual?

6          A. Yes.

7          Q. And tell me why.

8          A. It was unusual that she was - it was clear

9 she was dead. It was unusual that, for me, for a

10 father to carry his child that way.

11        Q. How would you have expected him to be

12 carrying his child under those circumstances?

13        A. I don't know.

14        Q. You don't know other than it shouldn't have

15 been that way?

16        A. I'm not saying it should or shouldn't have

17 been. I'm just saying it was unusual.

18        Q. You had concern about your personal safety

19 as it related to John Ramsey that day?

20        A. The 26th?

21        Q. Yes.

22        A. After JonBenet came up the stairs, yes.

23        Q. And your concern was that you thought John

24 Ramsey had the potential to cause you personal harm?

25        A. I didn't know what John Ramsey's reaction

Page 122

1 or behavior would be.

2           MR. HALABY: Just informing you Judge

3 Bolin is not available until after 2:00 p.m. today. He

4 is in Colorado Springs doing a criminal docket this

5 morning. This is as related by his secretary, Miss

6 Freitag. So I guess we'll have to bring that up

7 another day.

8           MR. JONES: All right.

9          Q. (BY MR. HALABY) But you have been quoted,

10 have you not, as saying you feared for your safety when

11 you were in the presence of John Ramsey at that time?

12        A. I may have been quoted, but I didn't say

13 that.

14        Q. And you didn't feel that?

15        A. That's not what I said.

16        Q. Well, did you feel that?

17        A. I didn't know what John Ramsey was going to

18 do.

19        Q. And you thought because you didn't know,

20 there was a potential he could harm you?

21        A. I thought more about the other people.

22        Q. Well, didn't you count the rounds in your

23 weapon?

24        A. I did.

25        Q. And you'd counted the rounds in your weapon

Page 123

1 because you wanted to know whether or not you had

2 enough ammunition to defend yourself if you had to in

3 the Ramsey home?

4          A. Are you telling me what I thought?

5          Q. I'm asking you if that's what you thought.

6          A. Oh, it was an officer's safety thought.

7          Q. So an officer's safety thought. An officer

8 counts his rounds to make sure there is enough

9 ammunition to defend one's self if necessary?

10        A. Sure.

11        Q. So the natural import of that is you were

12 prepared to use your weapon on John Ramsey if your

13 suspicions became true that he'd become a threat to

14 you; is that correct?

15        A. What was that again?

16        Q. You wanted - you were prepared to use your

17 weapon in case your suspicions became fact and he

18 became a threat to you; is that correct?

19        A. I was prepared to defend the rest of the

20 people in that home.

21        Q. With the use of your weapon?

22        A. If need be.

23        Q. Okay. So this concern was not only for

24 your personal safety but the safety of others in that

25 house?

Page 124

1 A. The concern was first and foremost for

2 everyone in the house.

3          Q. So you didn't feel personally threatened by

4 John Ramsey; is that correct?

5          A. I felt concerned for everyone's safety,

6 including mine.

7          Q. So did you - well, I'm trying to get a

8 direct answer. My simple question just deals with you,

9 not everybody else. As to you, you felt concerned for

10 your personal safety as it related to John Ramsey,

11 correct?

12        A. I felt there was a threat to my -

13        Q. From John Ramsey?

14        A. Yes.

15        Q. To your personal safety?

16        A. At that moment, yes.

17        Q. As he was coming up the stairs?

18        A. No.

19        Q. Which moment?

20        A. As we were both bending over the body and

21 he was closest to my gun.

22        Q. What, under those circumstances, would

23 cause you to believe that he was a threat to your

24 personal safety, John Ramsey was a threat to your

25 personal safety? 

Page 125

1 A. I was alone in the house with a man who,

2 whose daughter was murdered. I believed it was him,

3 and I didn't know how he was going to react.

4          Q. Did what you perceived to be the look in

5 his eyes have anything to do with this?

6          A. What are you referring to?

7          Q. I'm just asking you a question. You

8 observed his eyes, did you not?

9          A. Uh-huh.

10        Q. Was there anything in the look in his eyes

11 that added to this sense of threat from him?

12        A. At one point, yes.

13        Q. And what was that?

14        A. At the same time we were bending over both

15 on the floor next to JonBenet.

16        Q. How close was your face to his at that

17 point?

18        A. Inches.

19        Q. Did he ever say anything to you that

20 appeared to be consistent with a threat to your safety?

21        A. No.

22        Q. Did he make any overt act that you

23 translated as being a threat to your safety?

24        A. No.

25        Q. Did you have this concern for your personal

Page 126

1 safety regarding John's conduct after that moment?

2          A. I know that the threat was immediate.

3          Q. But did it last throughout the day?

4          A. No.

5          Q. Was it just for the moment?

6          A. It was in that moment.

7          Q. And it only lasted for that moment; is that

8 correct?

9          A. I can tell you that I remember that moment

10 clearly.

11        Q. And you can't remember it continuing after

12 that moment; is that correct?

13        A. The immediate threat had passed.

14        Q. All right. So can you recall whether or not

15 you felt in the least bit threatened by John Ramsey

16 after that moment?

17        A. That day?

18        Q. Yes.

19        A. Indirectly, yes.

20        Q. In what way?

21        A. Eller.

22        Q. Tell me about that.

23        A. Eller had said that I was a key witness in

24 the case and I knew information no one else knew and I

25 had to be careful and take a different route home every

Page 127

1 day, people would be, I should be extra careful and

2 people would be willing to kill me.

3          Q. When did he tell you that?

4          A. Well, within the first week.

5          Q. But that day, did you have any further

6 concern about your personal safety as it related to

7 John Ramsey after that moment had passed?

8          A. After people showed up, no. After other

9 cops showed up, no.

10        Q. How much time elapsed between the time of

11 that moment and when other cops showed up?

12        A. Twenty, 25 minutes.

13        Q. What means did you take to protect yourself

14 from John Ramsey during that 20 to 25 minutes?

15        A. I took command of the scene, the air of

16 authority.

17        Q. Did you ever pull your weapon?

18        A. No.

19        Q. Did you do anything else other than what

20 you just said in terms of taking control of the scene

21 and the air of authority?

22 I called 911 twice, had John go call 911.

23        Q. At the time you called 911, how many

24 officers were in the house?

25        A. Just me.

Page 128

1 Q. Had you attempted to get support prior to

2 that time?

3          A. Yes.

4          Q. What attempts had you made prior to making

5 the 911 call?

6          A. When Wickman left at about 10:30 that

7 morning, he said someone would be there to relieve me

8 soon. And then I made at least two phone calls to the

9 detective bureau asking for help.

10        Q. So Sargeant Wickman had been with you

11 earlier in the morning; is that correct?

12        A. Yes.

13        Q. And Detective Patterson had been with you

14 earlier in the morning; is that correct?

15        A. Yes.

16        Q. But when Sargeant Wickman left, were you

17 left alone as the only police officer there?

18        A. When Wickman and Patterson left, I was the

19 only police officer there.

20        Q. Did they leave together?

21        A. Yes.

22        Q. I'm sorry. This was approximately when?

23        A. 10:30, 10:35.

24        Q. And didn't you indicate that it was

25 sometime between 10:40 and 12:00 noon that John Ramsey

Page 129

1 left to pick up his mail or that you lost track of him

2 but later saw him reading the mail and assumed he had

3 left to pick up the mail during that period you had

4 lost track of him?

5          A. It has been widely reported that -

6          Q. I'm not talking about widely reported. I'm

7 talking about what you know.

8          A. What I know? Okay. Ask me again then.

9          Q. I'll ask you again. Isn't it your

10 recollection that it was between 10:40 and 12:00 noon

11 that you lost track of John Ramsey, and when you later

12 saw him opening mail you assumed he had gone out to get

13 the mail during that period you had lost track of him?

14        A. As I told you when you asked before, I

15 didn't personally watch him every minute from about

16 10:40 until noon.

17        Q. Would you read back the question?

18 (Record read by reporter as requested.)

19         THE DEPONENT: I'm sorry. What did I not

20 answer?

21        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Are you stating that you

22 never lost track of him during that period?

23        A. I think I just told you that I personally

24 couldn't account for every minute.

25 Does that mean that you lost track of him

Page 130

1 then?

2          A. You could interpret it that way.

3          Q. All right. And during that period that you

4 lost track of him, did you later conclude what he had

5 done during that period in terms of going to pick up

6 the mail?

7          A. When I didn't personally monitor him the

8 whole time, what was the other half?

9          Q. Did you conclude that during that period

10 you'd lost track of him that he had gone out to pick up

11 the mail?

12        A. When I didn't personally monitor him, I

13 didn't know how he had gotten his mail.

14        Q. And did you then put two and two together

15 and believe that he had gone out to get the mail?

16        A. I thought he had gotten mail by stepping

17 outside.

18        Q. You didn't believe somebody else had picked

19 up the mail and delivered it to him inside the house?

20        A. I didn't know.

21        Q. But what you had concluded was that he had

22 gone out to get the mail, correct?

23        A. I thought he had got - yes.

24        Q. Did you feel in the meetings called for the

25 investigative team that you fully participated in those

Page 131

1 meetings?

2          A. No.

3          Q. Why didn't you?

4          A. Some I wasn't allowed.

5          Q. In what way?

6          A. Jane, she was my partner, so she would

7 be - we both did an assignment. She would be the one

8 that would report or I would give the report.

9          Q. Give me the full name.

10        A. Jane Harmer.

11        Q. Spell that.

12        A. H-A-R-M-E-R.

13        Q. And you said she was your partner?

14        A. Correct.

15        Q. All right. You'd go to the meetings

16 together?

17        A. Yes.

18        Q. All right. And so why didn't you fully

19 participate in some of these meetings?

20        A. Since we both had done the same assignment,

21 either one or the other would report.

22        Q. So you felt that all of these meetings you

23 contributed fully to the degree you had to or were

24 required to?

25        A. At the meetings I provided the team with

Page 132

1 the updated information I had.

2          Q. So is your answer to my question yes?

3          A. I'm not sure. The way you worded it, I

4 could say just yes.

5          Q. What was the problem you couldn't say just

6 yes?

7          A. You'd have to ask it again.

8          Q. Would you read the question back?

9 (Record read by reporter as requested.)

10         THE DEPONENT: The had to or required to

11 part.

12        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Well, when somebody goes

13 to a meeting, they have a certain sense what they're

14 required to contribute or need to contribute, right?

15 Otherwise, you're not at the meeting. Isn't that the

16 the way you understand it?

17         MR. JONES: Object to the form.

18         THE DEPONENT: There should be an agenda

19 for a meeting, yes.

20        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) No. That's not my

21 question. My question is when you go to a meeting,

22 you're at the meeting for a purpose, correct?

23        A. You should be.

24        Q. And is that the way you viewed your

25 attendance at these meetings, that you were there for a

Page 133

1 purpose?

2          A. Yes.

3          Q. All right. So now that we know you

4 understood that you were at these meetings for a

5 purpose, what was that purpose?

6          A. To provide updated information.

7          Q. All right. And did you feel you fully did

8 that at these meetings?

9          A. Yes. With the exception I mentioned when

10 Jane would say inform instead of me.

11        Q. All right. So other than - in other words,

12 you didn't feel it was necessary to duplicate the

13 information Jane had already given the committee?

14        A. Right. She reported for both of us or I

15 would report for both of us.

16        Q. But to the degree she didn't report the facts,

17 you felt you fully provided the facts?

18        A. I provided the updates, yes.

19       Q. All right. When you say provided the

20 updates, is that providing the facts in the

21 investigation? The reason I ask it is because I said

22 facts. You said updates. Is there a difference?

23        A. That's the words that we used then, so

24 that's the words I'm familiar with. So it was -

25        Q. If I interpret updates as providing the

Page 134

1 facts you had, that would be the same thing in your

2 mind?

3          A. Yes.

4          Q. Okay. Were your reports always timely that

5 you were required to provide?

6          A. For the Ramsey case?

7          Q. Yes.

8          A. I think so.

9          Q. You were never late as much as even 60 days

10 with your reports; is that correct?

11        A. I don't think so.

12        Q. Or 30 days?

13        A. Not that I was told.

14        Q. So all - your recollection is all your

15 reports were timely given?

16        A. Yes.

17        Q. Did anyone ever at some time accuse you of

18 not performing your functions appropriately in the

19 investigation?

20        A. Within the police department? Yes.

21        Q. No. Were you at any time removed from the

22 investigative team?

23        A. Yes.

24        Q. And to your understanding, what was the

25 reason for your removal?

Page 135

1 A. I wasn't told.

2          Q. And so this came just out of the blue and

3 you had no explanation whatsoever about that?

4          A. No.

5          Q. And did you ever ask for an explanation?

6          A. Yes.

7          Q. To whom?

8          A. Koby.

9          Q. Anybody else?

10        A. Wickman and Eller were also present.

11        Q. Was this at the time you were removed?

12        A. Prior.

13        Q. And what - tell me about your conversation

14 with Chief Koby at that time.

15        A. I told him I had concerns. Eller had said

16 people were, someone was or the team was going to be

17 downsized, and it was unknown how many positions were

18 going to be downsized, when this was going to occur

19 And I had asked Koby if we, meaning the team, and

20 myself as well, could have a date when this process

21 would happen, how many people, whose decision it would

22 be and what process was being used to determine who

23 would be removed.

24        Q. You wanted to stay on the team?

25        A. Yes.

Page 136

1 Q. How many were eliminated from the team?

2          A. At that time, two.

3          Q. And who was the other person removed?

4          A. Melissa Hickman.

5          Q. And later were more removed from the team

6 as it was, as it continued to be downsized?

7          A. It was enlarged, and then the enlarged

8 group got reduced.

9          Q. Was there any point in time where you lost

10 memory about this incident?

11        A. Which incident?

12        Q. The Ramseys.

13        A. Lost it? I don't think so.

14        Q. Or lost memory about anything relating to

15 your investigation that was of an important

16 consequence?

17        A. I don't think so.

18        Q. Did you ever claim to have lost memory in

19 that case?

20        A. No.

21        Q. Did you testify to the Grand Jury?

22        A. Yes.

23        Q. And at any time during that process did you

24 claim loss of memory?

25         MR. JONES: I want to object. I don't

Page 137

1 think she can -

2           MR. HALABY: I don't think there's any

3 legal restriction in terms of her talking about it.

4           MR. JONES: I don't think she can talk

5 about what she said to the Grand Jury. She can talk

6 about what she knows, but you've asked her a question

7 directly about what she said to the Grand Jury, and I

8 don't think she can say that.

9           MR. HALABY: So you're directing her not

10 to answer?

11         MR. JONES: I'm afraid I have to, counsel,

12 because in my understanding of the law, unless you can

13 quote me differently, there is a distinction to be

14 drawn between what you did say to the Grand Jury, which

15 I understand she cannot talk about. She's sworn to

16 secrecy. But you can talk to her about any subject

17 that may have also been discussed with the Grand Jury

18 so yes, I'm going to have to direct her not to testify

19 about that.

20        Q. (BY MR. HALABY): In any meeting with, with

21 any investigating officials, did you ever claim loss of

22 memory?

23        A. No.

24        Q. In the meeting that you said you had that

25 was in Chief Koby's office -

Page 138

1 A. Conference room, his conference room,

2 Koby's conference room.

3          Q. And was this when you were removed from the

4 team?

5          A. No. I said prior.

6          Q. How soon after that meeting were you

7 removed from the team?

8          A. About two weeks.

9          Q. And when were you removed from the team?

10        A. May 13th, '97.

11        Q. And in that meeting, after that meeting was

12 concluded, did you know you were going to be removed

13 from the team?

14        A. No.

15        Q. And what occurred in that meeting that you

16 thought was critical of your performance?

17        A. I don't understand.

18        Q. Did you think in that May 13th, '97 meeting

19 in Chief Koby's conference room that Chief Koby was

20 being critical of your performance in the Ramsey

21 investigation?

22        A. The conversation didn't take place on May

23 13th.

24        Q. I thought you said - I'm sorry. You were

25 removed on May 13th?

Page 139

1 A. Yes.

2          Q. And this conference was within two weeks of

3 that, before it?

4          A. I think so, yes.

5          Q. All right. That's the conference I'm

6 referring to, in early May apparently. Was anyone

7 critical of that, of your performance in that meeting?

8          A. Wickman and - I just remember him for

9 sure.

10        Q. What do you remember?

11        A. Not specifics. I just remember him saying

12 that he couldn't supervise me, something to that

13 effect.

14        Q. Were you given an opportunity to respond?

15        A. I don't remember.

16        Q. Was the reason for this meeting to discuss

17 your conduct in the investigation?

18        A. That was not my impression.

19        Q. What was your understanding as to why this

20 meeting was being held?

21        A. As I remember, Koby said there were three

22 issues: One was my safety concerns; the other was

23 communication between Wickman and I and the third one

24 was the downsizing of the Ramsey team.

25        Q. Were those legitimate topics for a meeting,

Page 140

1 in your opinion?

2          A. Yes.

3          Q. Did you ever make the statement that you

4 thought John Ramsey was quote mind fucking you, mind

5 fucking me, closed quote?

6          A. John Ramsey?

7          Q. Right. Did you ever make that statement?

8          A. I don't think I said directly John Ramsey.

9          Q. Did you use that phrase, mind fucking me?

10        A. Something similar to that phrase in a

11 different context.

12        Q. What was the context?

13        A. Koby asked about my safety concerns, and I

14 said it was less - it was more of a mind fuck that I

15 was concerned about.

16        Q. What did you mean by that?

17        A. It was that I believe I told him that I was

18 getting hangup phone calls like I just had gotten. I

19 just had a picture in the local newspaper of my then

20 three-year-old nephew, so I was concerned about the

21 safety of my nephew, acts of behavior like that.

22        Q. Did you feel you weren't being kept

23 informed and did you express those concerns in this

24 meeting?

25        A. Informed of?

Page 141

1 Q. What was going on in the investigation?

2          A. I think I did.

3          Q. You think you expressed those concerns

4 about not being informed about what was going on in the

5 investigation?

6          A. I think I expressed that I felt excluded.

7          Q. This communication problem you had with

8 John or with Sargeant Wickman, from your perspective,

9 became quite serious, isn't that right, for whatever

10 reason?

11        A. Yes.

12        Q. And you would agree that that's not helpful

13 to the investigation?

14        A. Yes.

15        Q. During this period you had more than one

16 union representative; is that correct?

17        A. Yes.

18        Q. The first one was Mike Pease.

19        A. Yes.

20        Q. Second one was whom?

21        A. Greg Perry.

22        Q. And why did you change from Mike Pease to

23 Greg Perry?

24        A. Pease wasn't available.

25        Q. Is that the only reason?

Page 142

1 A. Yes.

2          Q. Did he ever express any dissatisfaction

3 with representing you?

4          A. I'm sorry. What?

5          Q. Did Mike Pease ever express to you any

6 dissatisfaction in representing you?

7          A. No.

8          Q. So the only reason he no longer represented

9 you and Greg Perry took over was because of Mike

10 Pease's unavailability?

11        A. Perry never replaced Pease. Mike just

12 wasn't available one time that there was a meeting

13 scheduled.

14        Q. Did Pease thereafter represent you?

15        A. I don't remember if there were any more

16 meetings.

17        Q. Now, this gag order you referred to

18 earlier in your testimony, I may have asked you this

19 and if I did, forgive me. Do you know of any other

20 member of the Boulder Police Department that felt

21 constrained by this gag order in addition to yourself?

22        A. I don't know anyone else who was put in a

23 position such as I, and I don't know anyone else who

24 felt constrained.

25        Q. Now you've been involved in other

Page 143

1 high profile investigations, have you not?

2          A. Yes.

3          Q. Have there been gag orders as to those

4 investigations, or have you been free to give press

5 conferences on those investigations?

6          A. I don't remember any restrictions being

7 placed in past cases.

8          Q. So on how many occasions had you given a

9 press conference during the investigation of a

10 high-profile investigation you were involved in?

11        A. A press conference, I don't remember giving

12 any.

13        Q. Was your habit when involved in

14 particularly a high-profile investigation to disclose

15 material facts of the investigation to the press prior

16 to the prosecution of that crime?

17        A. Never. No.

18        Q. Why not?

19        A. I rarely talked to the press.

20        Q. Why?

21        A. My job was to do my job.

22        Q. You didn't think it would be appropriate

23 to?

24        A. If the press called about a profile case

25 then I would talk minimally about it.

Page 144

1 Q. And why would you want to keep it

2 minimally, because it would otherwise prejudice the

3 prosecution?

4          A. I wouldn't want, or I didn't want, the

5 victim to be unduly written about in the press.

6          Q. Did you have any concern about the sanctity

7 of the prosecution that would follow in terms of

8 keeping your comments to a minimum?

9          A. I mean, that's department policy. You

10 don't talk about facts of the case.

11        Q. And it's common knowledge that you had the

12 policy because you didn't want to prejudice the

13 subsequent prosecution; isn't that correct?

14        A. Yes.

15        Q. Whose decision was it to leave the

16 Department, your leaving the Department?

17        A. Mine.

18        Q. Had anyone told you to leave the

19 Department?

20        A. No.

21        Q. Voluntary act on your part?

22        A. Conscious decision, given the environment I

23 was working in or trying to work in.

24        Q. Did you take other employment after you

25 left the Department?

Page 145

1 A. No.

2          Q. Are you employed now?

3          A. No.

4          Q. Have you sought any other employment?

5          A. Yes.

6          Q. In what regard?

7          A. Meaning what kinds?

8          Q. Uh-huh.

9          A. Forensic interviewer for children,

10 probation department, positions within Social Services,

11 positions within the State Human Services, seasonal

12 help at Christmastime, general laborer.

13        Q. Have you ever gotten any of those jobs?

14        A. No.

15        Q. For what reason?

16        A. The closest I came to a direct answer was

17 when the person on the hiring board said because of the

18 notoriety given to me and my name in the Ramsey case.

19        Q. Who was that person?

20        A. Mike.

21        Q. Mike who?

22        A. I don't know his last name. He's got long

23 hair, brown hair in a ponytail.

24        Q. What's his position?

25        A. Boulder Probation.

Page 146

1 Q. Boulder Probation Department?

2          A. Um-humm.

3          Q. And what was his rank there?

4          A. He's a probation officer.

5          Q. And he had the decision of whether or not

6 to hire you in the Boulder Probation Department?

7          A. He was part of the hiring process.

8          Q. In all the other respects, you were just

9 turned down without a reason, is that it?

10        A. Correct. And at the labor office, I was

11 told that I was too hot, and I wouldn't be employed in

12 this area.

13        Q. Too hot?

14        A. Yes.

15        Q. Meaning?

16        A. That my name was too visible and no one in

17 in the local area would hire me.

18        Q. Who told you that?

19        A. Jerry McConell.

20        Q. Jerry McConell?

21        A. M-C-C-O-N-N-E-L.

22        Q. And what's his position?

23        A. I don't know his title.

24        Q. With what department?

25        A. Boulder Work Force.

Page 147

1 Q. So he said he would refuse you a position

2 with the Boulder Work Force because you were too hot?

3          A. No, he didn't.

4          Q. Did he have a role in whether or not you'd

5 be hired by the Boulder Work Force?

6          A. Boulder Work Force is an employment office.

7          Q. All right. But he said that the Boulder

8 Work Force could not get you employment because you

9 were too hot?

10        A. No.

11        Q. Well, explain it to me.

12        A. Okay. He said that for me to look for a

13 job in the Denver area, Boulder area, given that the

14 Ramsey case just got some more notoriety in the news,

15 no one would hire me, based on my name recognition in

16 connection with the Ramsey case and I would have to

17 look beyond this area.

18        Q. And did he tell you what was the basis of

19 his opinion in that regard?

20        A. No.

21        Q. Has anyone else made a similar statement in

22 an employment context?

23        A. Yes.

24        Q. Who?

25        A. Barb Kendall.

Page 148

1 Q. Who's she?

2          A. She works for Longmont Youth Services.

3          Q. And what did she tell you? Longmont what?

4 Excuse me.

5          A. Youth Services.

6          Q. And what did she tell you?

7          A. When I was looking for work, I was

8 networking with her and she said that in the State of

9 Colorado I probably wouldn't be hired for any law

10 enforcement, connected law enforcement, or anything

11 connected to law enforcement or victim service job.

12        Q. Did she give you the basis of her opinion

13 in that regard?

14        A. Yes.

15        Q. What was that?

16        A. Based on the people she knew who were

17 involved in the Ramsey case and political ties and how

18 I had been, in her words, scapegoated.

19        Q. Have you ever been psychiatrically

20 evaluated?

21        A. Psychological testing or what do you mean?

22        Q. Either psychological or psychiatrically,

23 either by a psychologist or psychiatrist's a better

24 way to put it.

25        A. Yes.

Page 149

1 Q. On how many occasions?

2          A. Twice. Twice.

3          Q. All right. And the first occasion was by

4 whom?

5          A. Well, does that include the psychological

6 tests for employment?

7          Q. Yeah, I want all psychological

8 evaluations.

9          A. The number is more. The first time I think

10 is when I tested for the Boulder Sheriff's Department.

11        Q. And who performed it?

12        A. I don't know.

13        Q. Somebody connected with the Boulder

14 Sheriff's Department as part of an employment

15 application?

16        A. It's part of the testing.

17        Q. And that was psychological testing?

18        A. I think it was.

19        Q. Did you have to be interviewed in the

20 context of what?

21        A. I don't remember.

22        Q. All right. What was the next time?

23        A. Employment process, hiring process with

24 Boulder Police.

25        Q. And what did that involve?

Page 150

1 A. I believe talking to O'Hara.

2          Q. Did you have to take any tests?

3          A. I don't remember.

4          Q. Next time?

5          A. SWAT at Boulder Police.

6          Q. And what did that involve?

7          A. I don't remember the testing.

8          Q. The next time?

9          A. Return to work, July of '97.

10        Q. You'd taken a leave of absence?

11        A. Yes.

12        Q. Medical leave of absence?

13        A. Yes.

14        Q. Based on what?

15        A. Exhaustion.

16        Q. Had you had a medical evaluation prior to

17 taking that leave?

18        A. Yes.

19        Q. By whom?

20        A. Dr. Lipetz.

21        Q. Spell that.

22        A. L-I-P-E-T-Z.

23        Q. Is she a personal physician?

24        A. Yes. Yes.

25        Q. What's her first name?

Page 151

1 A. Valerie.

2          Q. And how many times did she evaluate you in

3 this connection?

4          A. I don't know.

5          Q. More than once?

6          A. Yes.

7          Q. And did she provide you in writing a

8 medical basis to justify your taking a leave of absence

9 for exhaustion?

10        A. Yes.

11        Q. When was that?

12        A. In May of '97, I think.

13        Q. You took two months off?

14        A. Total, yes.

15        Q. And did she reevaluate you before you

16 returned to work?

17        A. Yes.

18        Q. And gave you a clean bill at that time?

19        A. Yes.

20        Q. Did she attribute the exhaustion to

21 anything in particular?

22        A. It was a culmination.

23        Q. Okay. Explain that.

24        A. Due to the involvement I had in the Ramsey

25 case, little sleep, little ability to take care of

Page 152

1 myself physically, rundown, and I don't remember the

2 whole list of everything. I'm sure it's in her medical

3 records.

4          Q. Did you feel that you were just working too

5 hard in the Ramsey investigation that caused you this

6 exhaustion?

7          A. No.

8          Q. What did you think was causing this

9 exhaustion?

10        A. Part of it was the amount of time I had put

11 into the Ramsey investigation, part of it was the

12 politics in the Boulder Police Department regarding the

13 Ramsey investigation.

14        Q. So at least it was in part the amount of

15 time you were putting into the Ramsey investigation?

16        A. Yes.

17        Q. Were you participating in any kinds of

18 sports or athletics during this period?

19        A. Which period of '97, which period?

20        Q. The year of 1997.

21        A. The whole year?

22        Q. Yes.

23        A. Yes.

24        Q. What kind of sports?

25        A. That summer I played on a softball team.

Page 153

1 Q. Organized league?

2          A. Yes.

3          Q. What was the name of your team?

4          A. BPBA Bullets.

5          Q. BPBA Bullets?

6          A. Yes.

7          Q. Is that the union team? What is that, what

8 do those initials stand for?

9          A. Boulder Police -

10        Q. - Benevolent Association?

11        A. Yes.

12        Q. Was this a female team, male team, mixed?

13        A. Women's team.

14        Q. And did you play the whole season?

15        A. I was on the roster the whole season.

16        Q. Did you miss any games?

17        A. Yes.

18        Q. How many?

19        A. I don't know.

20        Q. Very many?

21        A. I don't remember.

22        Q. Who was the coach of the team?

23        A. Chris Thomas.

24        Q. What position did you play?

25        A. Outfield.


Page 154

1 Q. Did you start?

2          A. I think so.

3          Q. You can't remember if you started or not?

4          A. Well, I started late.

5          Q. I'm sorry. You started late, what does

6 that mean?

7          A. In the season.

8          Q. You weren't a starter initially but became

9 a starter later in the season?

10        A. We were good to have a whole team.

11        Q. Give me the months the season ran.

12        A. Oh, May I think, to June or July.

13        Q. May to July?

14        A. I think so.

15        Q. Did you ever suffer any injuries playing

16 any sports?

17        A. In my life?

18        Q. No. During 1997.

19        A. I don't think so.

20        Q. There are some indications that you had

21 lower back pain. Was that from softball or what?

22        A. No.

23        Q. It wasn't from softball?

24        A. Correct. It was not from softball.

25        Q. Do you know what it was from?

Page 155

1 A. I know that's when I went back to work in

2 the work environment, caused from stress.

3          Q. Did you ever receive a medical opinion in

4 that regard?

5          A. I don't know that I did or didn't.

6          Q. So you can't recall ever having such a

7 medical opinion?

8          A. Correct.

9          Q. You went to the Boulder Back Pain Clinic?

10        A. Yes.

11        Q. Once?

12        A. More than once.

13        Q. It seems that you just had a $51 bill. How

14 many visits does that cover?

15        A. One.

16        Q. You don't list any other bills from the

17 back pain, Boulder Back Pain Clinic.

18        A. Correct.

19        Q. But you went more than that?

20        A. Yes.

21        Q. And you think will preparation is part of

22 your damages?

23        A. Yes.

24        Q. Why is that?

25        A. I didn't feel the need for a will until

Page 156

1 after I was taken off the Ramsey team and all that had

2 accumulated before and after.

3          Q. Were you concerned with committing suicide?

4          A. No.

5          Q. Why did you feel you needed a will when you

6 were taken off of the Ramsey investigation?

7          A. As I said, taken off and all of the

8 cumulative before and after.

9          Q. Well, you have a will because you think

10 you're going to die, right?

11        A. I have a will in place just in case

12 something happens to me.

13        Q. Well, a will isn't relevant unless you die,

14 right?

15        A. It doesn't come into effect until a person

16 dies.

17        Q. Okay. So you wanted to have a will in case

18 you died, right?

19        A. In case something happened to me, yes.

20        Q. When you say something happened to me,

21 that's a phrase that means in case you die.

22        A. Serious bodily injury or death.

23        Q. Okay. And did you fear for your life as,

24 in the context of your participation in the Ramsey

25 investigation?

Page 157

1 A. Yes.

2          Q. Who did you think would take your life?

3          A. I didn't know.

4          Q. Okay. John Ramsey was one apparently; is

5 that right?

6          A. He could have.

7          Q. Anybody else that would have in your

8 opinion?

9          A. It could have been anyone.

10        Q. Well, you go out and get a will because

11 you say you think you are going to lose your life and

12 you think John Ramsey is one possible perpetrator. Any

13 others?

14        A. Not specifically, no.

15        Q. Anybody connect with the police

16 department?

17        A. I wouldn't put it past certain individuals.

18        Q. Who?

19        A. Eller or Wickman.

20        Q. Anybody else?

21        A. Those two mostly.

22        Q. So you think they have the capacity to take

23 your life when you say you wouldn't put it past them?

24        A. Correct.

25        Q. Is this based on anything specific they

Page 158

1 said to you?

2          A. No.

3          Q. Just overall demeanor?

4          A. Yes.


5          Q. Anybody else, either inside or outside the

6 Boulder Police Department, that you think is a

7 potential threat to your life?

8          A. No.

9          Q. And you list two stalking books, why do you

10 list those? Have you been stalked?

11        A. Yes.

12        Q. By whom?

13        A. Barb Fernie.

14        Q. Who?

15        A. Barb Fernie.

16       Q. Spell her name and describe or identify

17 her.

18        A. F-E-R-N-I-E.

19        Q. Who's she?

20        A. She's a main witness in the Ramsey case.

21        Q. And she was on the premises on the day of the

22 murder?

23        A. Yes.

24        Q. Along with her husband?

25        A. Yes.

Page 159

1 Q. And why are you concerned that she could

2 potentially - is that in the context - I lost your

3 context in which you identified her.

4          A. You asked about two stalking books.

5          Q. Stalking. Are you concerned that she would

6 take your life?

7          A. No.

8          Q. But you have known her to stalk you?

9          A. Yes.

10        Q. Describe that specifically.

11        A. Repeated phone calls and attempts to

12 contact me.

13        Q. During what period?

14        A. Roughly May of '97 to the present.

15        Q. When was the last call you got from her?

16        A. I don't remember.

17        Q. Was it within the last month?

18        A. Not directly, no.

19        Q. Last two months?

20        A. No.

21        Q. This year?

22        A. 2000, no.

23        Q. So the last call was sometime in 1999?

24        A. From her directly, yes.

25        Q. And was that before Thanksgiving or after

Page 160

1 Thanksgiving?

2          A. It was when I was still a cop.

3          Q. So it was in the summer of '97.

4          A. Now you're confusing me. You said in the

5 last year.

6          Q. Oh, last year? I'm sorry.

7          A. '99, right?

8          Q. '99.

9          A. So that would only be January to September

10 1st.

11        Q. And why was she contacting you, as far as

12 you understood?

13        A. She just wanted to keep contacting me.

14        Q. Did she ever express a reason or did you

15 ever understand a reason?

16        A. It was with regards to the Ramsey case.

17        Q. She wanted to give you more information or

18 just find out what was going on?

19        A. Neither.

20        Q. What was it?

21        A. She just wanted to keep in touch with me.

22        Q. As a friend?

23        A. I need a break.

24        Q. Well, can you answer that question since we

25 have a pending question and then we'll take a break?

Page 161

1 A. No.

2          Q. All right. If you want to take a break,

3 take a break.

4 (Short recess.)

5          Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Is there something about

6 this stalking issue that was of concern that you wanted

7 to confer with your attorney?

8          A. Yes.

9          Q. Can you explain that to me?

10        A. Yeah. In short form, it's uncomfortable

11 memories.

12        Q. Okay. Now you've listed it as an item of

13 your damages, so I have to talk to you, although I sense

14 it is uncomfortable for you but you understand that I

15 need to talk to you about this.

16        A. I do.

17        Q. Tell me about it.

18        A. Well, with respect to Barb Fernie, she saw

19 me as a person who was a cop but not as a cop because I

20 wasn't in uniform. And she kept saying, "I can't

21 believe JonBenet is dead. Please tell me that she's

22 dead," so that was one thing. And she kept looking to

23 me as some source of safety and protection, even though

24 I wasn't on the Ramsey case still.

25        Q. So was she just kind of mettlesome with you

Page 162

1 afterward, is that a fair description?

2          A. It felt more than mettlesome.

3          Q. Smothering?

4          A. Yes.

5          Q. I mean, it doesn't sound like she had any

6 ill will toward you?

7          A. I don't think so.

8          Q. Would she be the only stalker so-called

9 that you described?

10        A. No.

11        Q. There were others?

12        A. I would consider the behavior by the

13 tabloids that were after me stalking behavior.

14        Q. Are they still stalking you?

15        A. Not to my knowledge.

16        Q. When was the last time you felt the

17 tabloids were stalking you?

18        A. The greatest scrutiny was the summer of '97

19 that I remember.

20        Q. But after that intense period did you feel

21 you were being stalked by the tabloids anymore?

22        A. Not as blatantly as they had been.

23        Q. Any other stalkers?

24        A. Stalkers, no.

25        Q. Let's mark this as Exhibit 1.

Page 163

1 (Marked Deposition Exhibit No. 1.)

2          Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Let me show you Exhibit 1

3 and ask you if you can identify that as an itemization

4 of damages in this case that has been prepared by your

5 attorneys and given to us.

6          A. Yes.

7          Q. All right. You know, you got blank line

8 items there that don't make sense to me, so you're

9 going to just have to refer to them and tell me how, in

10 your opinion, they constitute damages in this case.

11 Just use that exhibit and go down and identify the line

12 item and tell me how it's -

13        A. 1, 2, 3, well they're all the same.

14        Q. Just say what they are instead of just

15 numbers so we have a record we can read.

16        A. 1, The Window Center Incorporated; 2

17 Innovative Openings; 3 Crystal Electric Incorporated.

18        Q. You can group those?

19        A. Yeah. But there's another one. Jeff

20 Medanich, window installation; 17 Eagle Hardware,

21 paint brushes, etc.; 18 Home Depot, paint, etc.

22 They're all one category.

23        Q. And what's that category?

24        A. Got new windows and doors in my home and

25 new window coverings, installation for those above

Page 164

1 items, and then the paint brushes and paint to do the

2 trim.

3          Q. Are those all items of damages that you're

4 claiming in this case?

5          A. Are those did you ask me?

6          Q. Yes. That category.

7          A. Are those them? Yes.

8          Q. And how are those damages connected with

9 this case, how are those expenses connect with

10 damages in this case?

11        A. Related to my safety.

12        Q. And have you, to your satisfaction, told us

13 fully about your safety concerns as they relate to this

14 case?

15        A. The main ones.

16        Q. Okay. Is there anything else, because I

17 have to fully understand all of your safety concerns as

18 they relate to this case if you haven't already told

19 us.

20        A. I told you before about the tabloids coming

21 to my house, about the telephone calls. Did I mention

22 those, hang-up calls? I had all in the same time frame

23 paint on my door, or not paint, blood, on my front step.

24        Q. Do you know how it got there?

25        A. No idea.

Page 165

1 Q. Could you recognize what kind of blood it

2 was, did you ever have it tested?

3          A. No. I reported it to Louisville PD.

4          Q. Did they ever tell you the results of their

5 investigation?

6          A. I didn't ask for a formal report.

7           I had the tabloid reporters and camera

8 people in my neighborhood trying to get pictures of me

9 and trying to bribe my neighbors for info. I mentioned

10 my nephew's picture being put in the paper.

11         At work, a year after I was, over a year,

12 year-and-a-half after I was taken off the case, I got

13 phone calls from someone who digitally altered their

14 voice. When asked for who it was and why they tried to

15 contact me, I was never given an explanation. I think

16 that sums it up.

17        Q. Okay. Can you review the other items in

18 that exhibit and similarly let us know how they're

19 connected with damages in this case?

20        A. 4, Xpedx Paper Store, resume paper,

21 computer paper, envelopes for job hunting; French and

22 Stone, No. 5, Joe French is my attorney when I met with

23 Eller in June of '97; 6, Radio Shack, purchased a tape

24 recorder.

25        Q. And how is that relevant?

Page 166

1 A. Tape recorded the telephone conversations that I

2 had -

3          Q. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you.

4          A. - with certain individuals.

5          Q. And how is that connected with this case?

6          A. My safety, and also this one is just to

7 document or attempt to document conversations so they

8 wouldn't be altered later.

9          Q. Would you identify all tape recordings that

10 you have or that you made that are in any way connected

11 with your lawsuit?

12        A. I think I gave them to you, my attorney's

13 office. That list is available to you. I can't - I

14 don't know the -

15         MR. HALABY: Have those been produced?

16         MR. JONES: They've been offered for your

17 review, but you haven't arranged to come listen to

18 them.

19        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) But your counsel has all

20 of those tapes; is that correct?

21        A. Yes.

22         MR. JONES: And we said that they were

23 available for your review at your - you know, just

24 give us the heads up.

25         MR. HALABY: I'm sure we will after we

Page 167

1 clear some of these trials.

2           THE DEPONENT: Just so you know, I've got

3 to be gone by 12:30.

4 7, Health Fitness for weight equipment,

5 since I no longer belong to a health club to maintain

6 physical fitness; 8, prescriptions are medical

7 prescriptions; 9, Judith Fisher, therapy; 10, Boulder

8 Community -

9          Q. (BY MR. HALABY): What kind of therapy?

10        A. The talking kind. I don't know how else to

11 say it.

12        Q. Well, is she a psychologist?

13        A. LCSW, MSW. Yes.

14        Q. And how many times did you see her?

15        A. That's also been submitted to you. I don't

16 know the number.

17        Q. Okay.

18        A. 10, Boulder Community Hospital for testing

19 authorized by Dr. Lipetz; 11, Valerie Lipetz, my

20 personal physician; 12, Fortis Health, medical health

21 insurance, since leaving the police department, I don't

22 have medical insurance; 13, Office Max, I think it's a

23 cartridge for my computer so I could print, operate for

24 job hunting; 15, Vince Cleeves, DDS, he's my dentist.

25        Q. How is that related?

Page 168

1 A. Because of the stress, I was grinding my

2 teeth and I broke some crowns, I think.

3           16, Jody Shevins, he's a neuropath I went

4 to to (sic) help with the stress I was under; 19, Boulder

5 Back Pain, my lower back was going out due to the

6 stress at the work environment; 20, Anna Marie Laverty,

7 she was a massage therapist. I went to her to help

8 alleviate the stress in my back from the work

9 environment; 21, Jean Fortier, she was my therapist,

10 and I had been seeing her prior to Judith Fisher; 22,

11 Cobra Dental Insurance, it's my dental coverage since I

12 have, since leaving the Boulder Police Department; 23,

13 Flatirons Athletic Club, maintaining a level of

14 physical well-being since I no longer have a membership

15 to a club, a health club; 24, Accelerated Sports Rehab,

16 rehab for some stress-related - I'm searching for the

17 word. I will use the word manifestation. You know, my

18 body, due to the stress in the work environment; 25

19 Lifelong Learning, possible employment, I took a class;

20 26, we mentioned is will preparation; 27, Boulder

21 Book Store, a book on scapegoat complex; 28, LCJP, its

22 a resortive justice program that I'm volunteering with

23 and networking for possible employment, also I paid for

24 training with that group; 29, Boulder Book Store, two

25 stalking books already addressed; 30, annual cost of

Page 169

1 vitamins and herbal remedies for 1997 to 2000. On the

2 advice of my naturopath doctor and my personal

3 physician, I've been taking vitamins and herbal

4 remedies; 32, mileage, that's the mileage related to

5 meeting with attorneys, including the deposition.

6          Q. And you have another exhibit here that has

7 various mileage costs there, is that right, that's been

8 supplied? We'll mark that as Exhibit 2.

9 (Marked Deposition Exhibit 2.)

10        A. Okay. That's for - the mileage includes

11 mileage for therapy, mileage for personal physicians or

12 health providers, to training classes, wills,

13 employment opportunities, therapy. I think I covered

14 everything, but if I haven't, it's on the list.

15        Q. You make an allegation in the complaint

16 that "Chiefs Koby and Beckner sanctioned false

17 statements by allowing leaks within the Department

18 and/or were the indirect sources of one or more of

19 those statements." Do you have any facts in that

20 regard?

21        A. I guess I'm done with this (indicating)?

22        Q. Yes.

23        A. Okay. I was still paying attention to

24 this.

25        Q. And I will be glad to repeat the question.

Page 170

1 Q. In Paragraph 15 of your Amended Complaint

2 you state that "Chiefs Koby and Beckner sanctioned false

3 statements," that you referenced in paragraph 14,

4 by allowing leaks within the Department and/or were

5 the indirect sources of one or more of the statements."

6 And I would like to know what facts you have in that

7 regard.

8          A. With regard to which one, that the leaks

9 were allowed?

10        Q. Well, we'll take them, first of all, that

11 they sanctioned those statements you allege were false

12 as contained in paragraph 14. What evidence do you

13 have that they sanctioned them?

14        A. That they didn't attempt to discover the

15 leaks and that they knew the information was false and

16 that they didn't correct the record or allow me to

17 correct it.

18        Q. And the leaks you're referring to is what

19 you've testified to as leaks in this deposition?

20        A. Well, I'm sure that's not all-inclusive,

21 but yes.

22        Q. Remember when we talked about, like I said

23 I wanted to know all of them? Are there more that now

24 come to mind that you didn't refer to earlier in your

25 deposition?

Page 171

1 A. Are you referring to all of the information

2 out there? I don't know.

3          Q. I'm talking about leaks that you say were

4 sanctioned by these two chiefs.

5          A. Nothing other.

6          Q. You can't think of any other leaks?

7          A. Right.

8          Q. And do you know of any false statements

9 that Chief Koby was the indirect source of that are

10 listed in paragraph 14?

11        A. Circumstantially, he seems to be No. 8.

12        Q. And that's all you can say about that?

13        A. Yes.

14        Q. Is that just circumstantially, but you

15 don't have any specific facts?

16        A. Yes.

17        Q. Is that correct?

18        A. Correct. He seems to be behind it.

19        Q. And is your answer the same for Chief

20 Beckner, do you think he was the indirect source of one

21 or more of those statements in paragraph 14 of your

22 Amended Complaint?

23        A. I don't know.

24        Q. Did Chief Beckner, did you go talk to Chief

25 Beckner about whether or not you could talk to the

Page 172

1 press about your reputation, your investigation?

2          A. No.

3          Q. Do you have any facts to know whether or

4 not he would allow you, he would have allowed you to

5 have talked to the press while you were employed with

6 the Boulder Police Department?

7          A. Well, the existence of what Koby first

8 originated with the gag order, nobody talks about the

9 Ramsey case and his following that.

10        Q. I'm sorry. What was his involvement in

11 that?

12        A. And his following that.

13        Q. What facts do you have that he enforced

14 that?

15        A. His behavior and circumstantially.

16        Q. What behavior?

17        A. That he continued, Beckner continued,

18 following that same order.

19        Q. It seems to me that with respect to Chief

20 Beckner, you're relying on the mere fact that he became

21 chief in that regard; isn’t that correct?

22        A. He continued following the same, the same

23 way that Koby had once Beckner came chief.

24        Q. What facts do you have in that regard?

25        A. As I said, his behavior and the

Page 173

1 circumstances.

2          Q. But you don't, you can't speak to any

3 specific facts?

4          A. No.

5          Q. And what was it in his behavior that seemed

6 to indicate to you that you would not be allowed to

7 discuss, defend your reputation in public?

8          A. The leaks continued and there was no

9 attempt to identify the leaks were there.

10        Q. Anything else?

11        A. That's what comes to mind.

12        Q. Can you think of anything else?

13        A. Not now, no.

14        Q. Take a moment, because this is an

15 allegation you've made so I've got to understand your

16 thinking in that regard.

17        A. I can't.

18        Q. All right. And the leaks you just referred

19 to are the leaks you've already testified to in this

20 deposition? You don't have to look at your attorney.

21        A. Well, I'm looking at the time, but I've got

22 to be somewhere and I have got to leave.

23        Q. Well, we can continue the deposition, but

24 it was noticed not for a specific time frame. And I

25 told you I couldn't be held to a time frame, and you're

Page 174

1 the one that brought the lawsuit. And I've got to

2 examine the plethora of your allegations.

3 MR. JONES: If you have to go, you can go.

4 You can make whatever record you want and I'll - I've

5 got something I want to say on the record, too, but

6 she's got to go.

7 MR. HALABY: For the record, we have to

8 know what your appointment is that it's serious enough

9 to interfere with the deposition that's been noticed

10 and agreed to.

11         THE DEPONENT: I was told that this would

12 take about three hours. When we started, I said I

13 needed to be done by noon, so I've canceled a lunch to

14 network with somebody and I need to pick up my tax

15 statement before my accountant goes out of town. I

16 need to drop off something for someone else, and I have

17 therapy this afternoon.

18        Q.(BY MR. HALABY) What time is your therapy?

19        A. Four o'clock.

20        Q. Well, we'll be completed by then, and we'll

21 be completed to allow you to do those other errands.

22 But I never gave you a limit on when, as your counsel

23 suggested I had. I could not anticipate how long the

24 deposition would take, and we noticed it and so I know

25 I never told you what the limit would be.

Page 175

1 But it sounds from what you're saying that

2 there is some accommodation that we could at least

3 complete the phase we have subject to the one issue

4 that's left remaining in terms of the deposition as

5 opposed to having you come back and continue this. I

6 think everybody would like to just get it concluded.

7 I'd like to get it concluded, and I'm pushing as fast

8 as I can on this, but you have a lot here and we just

9 have to cover it.

10        A. That's why I came at 7:30, but I can't

11 drive to all these places and get to therapy in time if

12 I don't leave now. And I have allowed -

13        Q. Are there any of those errands you can

14 postpone? We tried to accommodate you in terms of

15 time. We had a tough time getting all the attorneys

16 together for those different times because we have

17 different schedules. And that's why I'd like to get

18 your deposition done as near we can, if you can

19 accommodate us for -

20        A. I have. And I have given you all that I

21 can give you today. And it was my understanding we

22 would be done.

23        Q. It might have been your understanding from

24 your attorney, but it wasn't your understanding from me

25 or from the notice we filed.

Page 176

1           MR. JONES: That's not correct. I'm not

2 going to continue to allow you to say that. When you

3 asked us to schedule this at 7:30 in the morning, it

4 was represented specifically to us that you were in

5 trial.

6           MR. HALABY: That's right.

7           MR. JONES: And that the deposition would

8 done in two-and-a-half to three hours as a result of

9 that.

10         MR. HALABY: That we would attempt to do

11 that.

12         THE DEPONENT: And my attorney was specific

13 about that.

14         MR. JONES: And we agreed to accommodate

15 your schedule and be here at 7:30. But I also told her

16 that you had made that representation that the

17 deposition, in light of your schedule, had to be done

18 by that point. She said, "This means that I have to

19 reschedule everything that I had scheduled before,"

20 because she had initially set aside from like nine

21 o'clock throughout the day in order to have her

22 deposition taken. Now she has to be here extra early,

23 but she gets to make up for that on the back end by

24 being able to leave.

25 I wrote you a letter yesterday that

Page 177

1 accompanied this itemization in which I said this is

2 the representation you made, we're willing to

3 accommodate you, we're willing to be there at 7:30 with

4 this understanding. And she scheduled in light of that

5 representation that was made. You came in this morning

6 and you made a different representation to begin the

7 deposition. That's too late.

8           MR. HALABY: I have a question for you,

9 Mr. Jones. You asked my paralegal or told my paralegal

10 that you wanted a commitment from me that this

11 would not go beyond 10:30, isn't that

12 correct?

13         MR. JONES: That the deposition would last

14 approximately three hours.

15         MR. HALABY: Would not go beyond 10:30,

16 that's the representation you asked my paralegal to get

17 from me, correct?

18         MR. JONES: And that was the

19 representation that was made to us.

20         MR. HALABY: I’ll bring my paralegal in

21 here right now because she conveyed that to me, and my

22 specific direction to her was "tell him I can't make

23 any commitments because I don't know how long it will

24 actually take." You didn't get that information?

25         MR. JONES: That was not what was conveyed

Page 178

1 to us at all; in fact, just the opposite, that you

2 could make that commitment because you were in trial

3 and you had to leave. That was what we were told.

4 That's specifically what we were told.

5           MR. HALABY: Well, that's not what she

6 told me, and that's not what I told her. And what I

7 had to do was make other arrangements in terms of this

8 trial, because we have so little time to get these

9 depositions in. And I've been in this game long enough

10 to know that you can't predict the length of

11 depositions to any degree of certainty.

12         MR. JONES: I agree with that, counsel,

13 whole-heartedly.

14         MR. HALABY: But I was willing to start at

15 7:30 with the hopes that we could get this thing

16 concluded.

17         MR. JONES: The one time though that you

18 can predict how long it's going to take is when you

19 have to go someplace else, which is what we were told,

20 that you had to be in trial by the, later in the

21 morning. And, therefore, it would be done and that was

22 as much time as you were going to take. You were going

23 to make it work that way. That's what we were told.

24 That's what I summarized in my letter that I faxed to

25 you yesterday, just so there wouldn't be this

Page 179

1 misunderstanding. And you never got back to me when I

2 wrote that letter.

3           MR. HALABY: I haven't seen your letter.

4 To this moment I haven't seen your letter.

5           MR. JONES: It's very ironic that you got

6 all the materials that I sent over to you yesterday

7 though.

8           MR. HALABY: That's (indicating) the stack

9 I have, and I don't see a letter here. This is the

10 stack that was sitting on my desk and I was in trial

11 all day yesterday and I came back last night and this

12 was the stack that was on my desk. I haven't seen your

13 letter, and obviously, I'm not responsible for any

14 perhaps self-serving letter you might choose to fax to

15 to me.

16         I do know the direction I gave my paralegal

17 when you were asking for a commitment from me, and I

18 said specifically I would not give a commitment. And

19 she said she conveyed that, so that's all I can tell

20 you, because I was in trial all day yesterday.

21         I'll be glad in light of Miss Arndt's

22 representations, to reconvene this to finish up.

23 We're obviously getting toward the end. You can tell

24 that by where I am, but I'm not concluded. And we also

25 have that other matter, and I'll certainly accommodate

Page 180

1 a continuation, perhaps tagging on with Chief Koby's

2 deposition, to minimize the inconvenience, not only for

3 Ms. Arndt but all of us. I've got to obviously

4 complete my deposition as noticed.

5           MR. JONES: Well, we do have to take the

6 thing up with the magistrate.

7           MR. HALABY: Yeah, we got to do that,

8 too. And we should do that before we reconvene and we

9 can but it can be done at one time.

10         MR. JONES: And perhaps we can address

11 this with him. You know, I am willing to consider

12 something along the lines of what you just said, just a

13 completion that might be scheduled in conjunction with

14 Chief Koby. But it's not my commitment to make. It's

15 Ms. Arndt's to make, and I'll talk to her about that.

16         MR. HALABY: Ultimately it might be for the

17 judge, but I think as attorneys, we face these problems

18 all the time, and I always try to accommodate.

19         MR. JONES: That's why I'm willing to talk

20 to you, but the statement, what I've stated for the

21 record, it is exactly what our understanding was. And

22 to avoid a misunderstanding is why I sent the letter.

23 I'm sorry you were unable to see it because of

24 your schedule, but you can certainly understand that

25 when the representation is made -

Page 181

1           MR. HALABY: Based on your representations

2 to me, I will reverify with my paralegal whether she

3 communicated what I told her to tell you.

4           MR. JONES: But again you hear the

5 lawyers all the time, hey, we'll try to do it in three

6 hours.

7           MR. HALABY: And that's why I told her

8 specifically I can't make a commitment.

9           MR. JONES: But when you say I've got to go

10 back to trial, that sounds like a commitment that you

11 have to make.

12         MR. HALABY: Even in that situation, I

13 knew I had to do something so I covered the trial and

14 there's somebody there in my place. But just for that

15 purpose, because of this schedule, I was willing to

16 take myself from the trial, have my co-counsel continue

17 the trial and have somebody else fill in my position

18 just to accommodate this schedule that's so tight, you

19 know, since I wasn't the primary counsel on that trial.

20 Obviously, if I was primary counsel, I couldn't have

21 even done that.

22         MR. JONES: Well, the tightness of the

23 scheduling has all been from the defense side in this

24 anyway.

25         MR. HALABY: Well, I guess we might have

Page 182

1 different views of that when Miss Arndt says she's

2 leaving on the 20th or 21st and isn't available after

3 that.

4           MR. JONES: I first inquired about

5 deposition schedules and tried to get depositions

6 scheduled in February, March, throughout the time

7 frame. We've tried to be as accommodating as we could

8 on that.

9           MR. HALABY: I'm sure you will be, as I

10 will continue to be, and you know as lawyers, we always

11 have these problems. And we try to work them out, and

12 I think we can do it for this one, too.

13         MR. JONES: We're certainly not shutting

14 the door to discussions.

15         MR. HALABY: Okay. Thank you very much.

16 (The deposition was recessed at 12:45 p.m.)










Page 183

1           I, LINDA ARNDT Vol. I, do hereby certify

2 that I have read the foregoing transcript and that the

3 same and accompanying correction sheets, if any,

4 constitute a full and complete record of my testimony.





8                                   Deponent 

9           ( ) No changes         ( ) Amendments attached                                  


11        Subscribed and sworn to before me this  

12 _________ day of _____________, 19_____. 

13         My commission expires ________________________. 



15                                 Notary Public 

16         Address ______________________________________ 


18                                _________________________________ 








Page 184

1 State of Colorado )

2                                  ) REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 

3 County of Denver  ) 

4          I, Jane L. Escobar, do hereby certify that 

5 I am a Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public  

6 within the State of Colorado; that previous to the 

7 commencement of the examination, the deponent was duly

8 sworn by me to testify to the truth. 

9          I further certify that this deposition was

10 taken in shorthand by me at the time and place herein 

11 set forth and was thereafter reduced in typewritten 

12 form, and that the foregoing constitutes a true and 

13 correct transcript. 

14       I further certify that I am not related to, 

15 employed by, nor of counsel for any of the parties or 

16 attorneys herein, nor otherwise _______ to the 

17 result of the within action. 

18        In witness whereof, I have affixed my 

19 signature this 17th day of March, 2000. 


21                                (Signature of Jane L. Escobar) 


22                                PATTERSON REPORTING & VIDEO 

                                         Jane L. Escobar

23                                Certified Shorthand Reporter 

24                                and Notary Public


Page 185


    Waterpark III

2 2550 South Parker Road, Suite 202

    Aurora, Colorado 80014


    Linda Arndt

4 c/o A. Bruce Jones, Esq.

    Holland & Hart, LLP

5 P.O. Box 8749

    Denver, Colorado 80201-8749


    Re: Arndt v. Koby, et al.

7 USDC Case No. 98-WY-1194-WD

        Deposition of Linda Arndt


    The deposition in the above entitled matter is ready

9 for reading and signing. Please attend to this matter

    by complying with ALL blanks checked below:


    _XX_ arranging with us at (303) 496-7680 to read

11 and sign the deposition in our office.

12 ____ having deponent read your copy and signing

    amendment sheets, if any, (orig. signature page

13 enclosed)

14 ____ reading enclosed depositions, signing attached

    signature page and corrections sheets, if any


    _XX_ within 30 days of the date of this letter


    ____ by __________ due to a trial date of ____________


    ____ due to a trial date of ____________ a telephone

18 message was left with ________________________ on

    ____________ advising the deposition is available

19 for reading and signing until ______________, at which

    time the original will be filed


    Please be sure that the signature page and accompanying

21 amendment sheets, if any, are signed before a notary

    public and returned to our office at the above address


    If this matter has not been taken care of within said

23 period of time, the deposition will be filed unsigned

    pursuant to the Rules of Civil Procedure. Thank you.



Page 186


    Waterpark III

2 2350 South Parker Road, Suite 202 

    Aurora, Colorado 80014



4 Halaby, Crow & Schluter, P.C. 

    1873 South Bellaire Street, Suite 1400

5 Denver, Colorado 80222

6 RE: Arndt v. Koby et al. 

7 Dear Mr. Halaby:

8 Enclosed is the deposition of: Linda Arndt Vol. I 

9 _____ Previously filed. Forwarding signature page and 

      amendment sheets.


    _____ Signed, no changes.


    _____ Signed, with changes, a copy of which is enclosed.


    _____ Unsigned, notice duly given _____________________,

13 pursuant to the Rules of Civil Procedure. 


14 _____ Not signed, notice duly given ___________________, 

       since trial is set for _________________.


    _____ No signature required.


    _____ Signature waived.


    _____ To be signed in court.


    _____ Signature pages/amendments to be returned to

19 court on date of trial. 

20 _____ Mailed by US Mail/UPS. 

21 _____ Hand delivered _____________________. 


    Enclosures (As above noted)

23 cc: A. Bruce Jones, Esq. 



Page 187



3 Civil Action No. 98-WY-1198-WD

4 ------------------------------------



6 ------------------------------------

7 LINDA ARNDT, an individual,

8 Plaintiff,

9 v.

10 THOMAS KOBY and MARK BECKNER, individually and in their

    official capacity, and the CITY OF BOULDER, a municipal

11 corporation,

12 Defendants.

13 ------------------------------------


14 Monday, April 10, 2000

            9:09 a.m.


16 PURSUANT TO NOTICE and the Federal Rules of Civil

    Procedure, the above-entitled deposition was taken on

17 behalf of Defendants at 1873 South Bellaire Street,

    Suite 1400, Denver, Colorado, before Jane L. Escobar,

18 Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public

    within Colorado.








Page 188


2 For the Plaintiff:

                             A. Bruce Jones, Esq.

3                     Holland & Hart, LLP

                             555 Seventeenth Street, Suite 3200

4                     Denver, Colorado 80202

5 For the Defendants:


6                     Theodore J. Halaby, Esq.

                             Halaby Crowe & Schluter

7                     1873 South Bellaire Street, Suite 1400

                             Denver, Colorado 80222

8 Also Present: Thomas Koby



10 EXAMINATION                                     PAGE

    April 10, 2000


    By Mr. Halaby                                 190



14                   INITIAL

    EXHIBITS                                                              REFERENCE


16 3 October 1997 Vanity Fair Article by                161

       Ann Louise Bardach


17 4 Unexecuted authorization to release                 295

       medical information of Linda Arndt

       to Halaby, Crowe & Schluter




    (Attached to original and copy transcripts)







Page 189

1 P R O C E E D I N G S


3 having been first duly sworn, was examined and

4 testified as follows:



7          Q. Ms. Arndt, we're continuing your deposition

8 from March 8th of last month. In your deposition, you

9 indicated that you spoke with Ann Bardach - which I

10 now understand is spelled B-A-R-D-A-C-H, Ann Louise

11 Bardach - in July of 1997. Do you recall that?

12        A. Yes.

13        Q. In that testimony, you indicated that she

14 indicated to you that she was going to be writing a

15 story. She was in Boulder at that time; is that right?

16        A. Yes.

17        Q. And that she had indicated that she was going

18 to be writing a large article on the Ramsey case?

19        A. She was writing an article.

20        Q. You quoted her as saying, Well, I'm going to

21 write this big article. Do you recall that testimony?

22        A. No.

23        Q. Let me just show you page 51 of your

24 transcript. Why don't you just review that to refresh

25 your recollection.

Page 190

1 Have you had an opportunity to do that?

2          A. Yes.

3          Q. You state that, "She listed whatever she

4 listed. I don't remember, whatever. I said, You don't

5 have anything right except I was there at the Ramsey

6 home on December 26th." You now recall that testimony?

7          A. Yes.

8          Q. In telling her that she didn't have anything

9 right, you seem to imply that she had told you things

10 she was going to be writing in the article; is that

11 correct?

12        A. She had mentioned some things she was going

13 to write, yes.

14         MR. HALABY: I think we've marked this

15 article previously, but let's just remark it. This is

16 the Vanity Fair article in question.

17 (Deposition Exhibit 3 was marked.)

18        Q. (BY MR. HALABY): Would you take a look at

19 that. Have you had an opportunity prior to today to

20 read that article?

21        A. When it came out.

22        Q. Would you be able to go through that article

23 and indicate to me what aspects you felt come under

24 your statement that you told her that it was all wrong;

25 you don't have anything right.

Page 191

1 MR. JONES: Object to the form. It's vague

2 and ambiguous.

3          A. I want to preface that, before I look through

4 this, I told her she had nothing right with respect to

5 me.

6          Q. (BY MR. HALABY): Right. I believe you made

7 that clear in your deposition earlier; that your

8 comment related to matters that you interpreted as

9 involving you; and that you, as you previously

10 testified, said you don't have anything right; is that

11 correct?

12        A. With what I told Ms. Bardach?

13        Q. Yes.

14        A. That's correct.

15         Do you want me to go through this whole

16 article?

17        Q. Right. I might be able to assist you a

18 little bit. Let me get the pages.

19         What we'll do is, you'll notice in the lower

20 left-hand corner there is a page number that equates to

21 the page number of the magazine page itself. I just

22 showed you page 324 of Exhibit 3. Do you notice that?

23        A. Yes.

24        Q. That's the reference we'll use. Let's go to

25 the middle column and the second-to-the-last paragraph

Page 192

1 that begins, According to police reports. Do you see

2 that paragraph?

3          A. Yes.

4          Q. Then if you skip down a few lines, do you see

5 a sentence that begins, Several uniformed policemen

6 assisted by Rick French? Do you see that?

7          A. It says, Several uniformed policemen assisted

8 Rick French.

9          Q. Right. From there down through the rest of

10 that paragraph, was that any of the matters that were

11 brought to your attention by Ms. Bardach?

12        A. I don't remember what she presented to me.

13        Q. All right. Well, let's go specifically -

14 and this doesn't refresh your recollection?

15        A. Correct, it doesn't.

16        Q. If she were to say that she was going to

17 write, Arndt in particular, who was described by fellow

18 officers as having bonded with Patsy Ramsey, made

19 several critical and possibly irreparable errors in

20 judgment, would you have told her that was accurate or

21 inaccurate?

22         MR. JONES: Object to the form to the extent

23 it calls for her to speculate.

24        A. Well, I agree with my counsel that it does

25 call for me to speculate, but that was not the format

Page 193

1 that was presented to me by Ms. Bardach.

2          Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Help me out there, then, so

3 I can understand it.

4          A. I believe I told you the last time, but if I

5 didn't, she just listed these are the things she was

6 going to write about me.

7          Q. Right.

8          A. And my reply was, The only thing you have

9 right is that I was at the Ramsey home on

10 December 26th.

11        Q. How many things did she list?

12        A. I don't remember.

13        Q. More than five?

14        A. I don't remember.

15        Q. Several, however?

16        A. I don't remember.

17        Q. Are you saying it wasn't - I mean, do you

18 remember if it was more than one?

19        A. Yes.

20        Q. It could have been several; you just don't

21 recall?

22        A. Yes.

23        Q. Well, what you're feeling today, since you

24 can't recall, and this does appear in the article, do

25 you feel you had bonded with Patsy Ramsey?

Page 194

1 A. No.

2          Q. Did you feel you had made several critical

3 and possibly irreparable errors in judgment?

4          A. No.

5          Q. If she had asked you that, you would have

6 said, You got it wrong?

7          A. She didn't ask me that.

8          Q. She didn't?

9          A. Correct.

10        Q. So you do have a recollection of that?

11        A. As I told you, she said, These are the things

12 I'm going to write, with regard to me.

13        Q. Right. But how is your recollection such

14 that you know she didn't ask you regarding this

15 statement that you had made several critical and

16 and possibly irreparable errors in judgment?

17         MR. JONES: Object to the form. She's

18 already answered the question.

19        A. As I've already told you.

20        Q. (BY MR. HALABY): I missed it, so you can

21 tell me again.

22        A. It wasn't a question-and-answer session. She

23 told me what she had planned to write. And at the end

24 of her providing me with that, I said this sentence

25 that I already told you - made the statement I already

Page 195

1 told you.

2          Q. Are you telling me that your recollection is

3 such that you specifically recall just giving one

4 response to the inaccuracy of what she intended to

5 include in the article?

6          A. I remember telling her that what she told me,

7 as I told you, the only thing she had accurate was that

8 I was at the Ramsey home on the 26th. She said - and

9 I told her I couldn't provide her with any specific

10 information.

11         MR. HALABY: Could I have the question asked

12 again.

13        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) If you could listen

14 carefully to the question, please, and answer that

15 question.

16 (Page 196, lines 2 through 5 were read.)

17         MR. JONES: Objection, asked and answered.

18        A. I don't know how to answer it different than

19 I already have.

20        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Do you recall giving only

21 one response?

22         MR. JONES: Objection, asked and answered.

23        A. My answer is the same as it was previously.

24        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Just answer that question,

25 Ms. Arndt.

Page 196

1           MR. JONES: Objection, asked and answered for

2 the fourth time.

3          Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Do you recall just giving

4 one response as to the accuracy?

5           MR. JONES: Objection, asked and answered.

6          A. My answer is the same as I've previously

7 answered.

8          Q. (BY MR. HALABY) What was the answer? I

9 don't recall an answer to that question. It's a yes or

10 no answer.

11         MR. JONES: Objection, argumentative.

12        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Do you recall giving just

13 one response to this author as to the inaccuracy of

14 those facts she related to you?

15         MR. JONES: Objection, asked and answered for

16 the fifth time.

17        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Would you like the question

18 repeated?

19        A. No.

20        Q. What's your answer.

21        A. My answer is the same as I've told you.

22        Q. That doesn't answer the question, because you

23 have not answered that question, in my opinion, and I

24 would like an answer to that specific question. It's

25 yes or no. Are you saying you're unable to answer that

Page 197

1 question yes or no?

2          A. Correct.

3          Q. Why?

4          A. Did you listen to my past responses?

5          Q. You don't need to ask me questions. Just

6 answer my questions.

7          A. Well, I'm trying.

8          Q. Why are you unable to answer that simple

9 question yes or no?

10        A. I'm trying to understand where you lack

11 comprehending my answer.

12        Q. Well, where I lack comprehension of your

13 answer is it, at least to me, is a very simple yes or

14 no question as to whether or not you recall giving more

15 than one response denying the accuracy of the facts she

16 was indicating to you would be contained in her

17 article.

18         MR. JONES: She's answered the question.

19        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Are you on medication

20 today?

21        A. Yes.

22        Q. What kind?

23        A. Effexor.

24        Q. What is that for?

25        A. Antidepressant.

Page 198

1 Q. What dosage have you taken today?

2          A. 75 milligrams.

3          Q. Is that the prescribed dosage?

4          A. Yes.

5          Q. Is that affecting your ability to comprehend

6 my questions?

7          A. No.

8          Q. Is that affecting your ability to answer my

9 questions?

10        A. No.

11         MR. HALABY: Let's go off the record again.

12 (Discussion was held off the record.)

13        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) I've just reviewed your

14 prior responses, Ms. Arndt, with the court reporter.

15 It seems clear to me you haven't answered that

16 question. How is it - is your memory such - let me

17 restate the question.

18         Is your memory such that you only replied

19 once to Ms. Bardach in informing her that the facts she

20 had presented to you were to the effect inaccurate?

21        A. I believe she only told me what she was going

22 to write once, and I gave my response to what she was

23 going to write once.

24        Q. But you indicated that you did speak with her

25 for some period of time; isn't that right? How long do

Page 199

1 you recall was the period in which you were speaking?

2          A. Not more than five minutes.

3          Q. Was this a personal conversation or on the

4 phone?

5          A. In person.

6          Q. You had gone to meet her; is that correct?

7          A. I had gone to her hotel to talk to her.

8          Q. She hadn't invited you; is that correct?

9          A. Correct.

10        Q. How did you know where she was staying?

11        A. I was told.

12        Q. By?

13        A. The person who told me she was snooping

14 around asking questions about me.

15        Q. And the name of that person?

16        A. Lisa.

17        Q. Lisa's last name again?

18        A. I don't know Lisa's last name.

19        Q. Did you call Ms. Bardach ahead of time to let

20 her know you were coming over?

21        A. I called the hotel to see if she was

22 registered there.

23        Q. You confirmed she was registered there?

24        A. Yes.

25        Q. Then you just went over unannounced?

Page 200

1 A. I called when I got to the lobby.

2          Q. But you hadn't called her, prior to your

3 getting to the lobby, to inform her you were coming

4 over; is that correct?

5          A. I don't think so.

6          Q. Did it appear to you from what she told you

7 that she had had a copy of your official report on the

8 events of December 26 of 1996?

9          A. I didn't know if she did or she didn't.

10        Q. Did you get an impression one way or the

11 other from talking to her, listening to her?

12        A. I got an impression that someone who had a

13 lot of information about the Ramsey case had spoken to

14 her.

15        Q. Are there any particular facts she told you

16 that stand out in your mind as having been false as far

17 as you were concerned?

18        A. I don't remember what she had told me. I

19 remember my response to her.

20        Q. You believe it was Steve Thomas that had

21 talked to her; is that right?

22        A. Correct.

23        Q. Did you ever confirm that -

24         MR. JONES: Objection, asked and answered.

25        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) - in your mind.

Page 201

1           MR. JONES: We are plowing the same thing

2 that you asked about in the prior deposition.

3          Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Did you ever confirm that?

4          A. Directly, no.

5          Q. Indirectly?

6          A. Circumstantially.

7          Q. Do you recall the letter to Dr. Withers dated

8 July 14, 1997, from John Eller, that was marked in the

9 Wickman deposition as Exhibit 13? I'll show it to you

10 at this time.

11        A. Yes, I do recall.

12        Q. In there, as your attorney explored with

13 Commander Wickman, were several specific statements of

14 your conduct. Do you recall that, bullet items I

15 believe your counsel referred to them?

16        A. There were bullet items, yes.

17        Q. I'd like to go through each of those bullet

18 items and get your take on it, all right?

19        A. Yes.

20        Q. Now, you've reviewed this letter before

21 today; is that correct?

22        A. Briefly.

23        Q. Let's take the first bullet item; Linda, who

24 is a central figure in the investigation of the death

25 of JonBenet Ramsey, was alone with a houseful of Ramsey

Page 202

1 family friends on December 26, 1996, when the body was

2 carried up to her by John Ramsey. Do you take issue

3 with those facts?

4          A. The wording of JonBenet being carried up to

5 me by John Ramsey wouldn't be quite accurate. I would

6 say John Ramsey just carried JonBenet upstairs.

7          Q. That's the only thing you take issue with in

8 that statement?

9          A. Yes.

10        Q. All right. The next item: Linda was

11 criticized internally by peers and externally by print

12 and electronic media for her investigative role and

13 decision making during the first hours of the case. Is

14 there anything inaccurate in that bullet item?

15        A. Well, I'd say that I was criticized more

16 expansively than my investigative role and decision

17 making. I was criticized for all - all acts that

18 happened within the Ramsey home that day,

19 December 26th.

20        Q. I'm sorry. Did you say you were criticized

21 for that?

22        A. Yes, it's more - I would say the criticism

23 is more expansive than what is written in that bullet.

24        Q. But the criticism at least included what is

25 contained in that particular bullet?

Page 203

1 A. I don't understand what he means by

2 "investigative role."

3          Q. Well, let's put it another way. If he were

4 referring to your conduct on the premises and what

5 judgments you made, were those criticized both

6 internally by your peers and externally by the print

7 and electronic media, in your opinion?

8          A. I would take out the word "conduct" and say,

9 yes, my presence at the home - at the Ramsey home on

10 the 26th. From being present at that home. I was

11 criticized internally and externally, yes.

12        Q. And your presence at the home and the

13 criticism involved included what you did in the home,

14 is that correct, or what you didn't do in the home?

15        A. And people's - yes.

16        Q. Now, the next bullet, let's take one sentence

17 at a time: During the investigation Linda established

18 a bond with Patsy Ramsey, the mother of the slain

19 child. Is that accurate, in your opinion?

20        A. No.

21        Q. The next sentence of that same bullet: She

22 was encouraged to do that to get close to the mother,

23 as the mother was a suspect from the beginning. Is

24 that accurate?

25        A. The last half, Patsy being a suspect, yes.

Page 204

1 It was Patsy who had a rapport with me, so she would

2 try to make contact with me. And for me to have access

3 to Patsy - or have access and talk to Patsy, that was

4 allowed initially.

5          Q. So are you denying that you were ever

6 encouraged to establish a rapport with Patsy Ramsey?

7          A. I don't remember being encouraged.

8          Q. The next sentence of that same bullet: The

9 bond that was created evolved into a situation where

10 Linda was not advising the case supervisor or others

11 there were meetings with Mrs. Ramsey. Is that true?

12        A. No.

13        Q. Then continuing that same sentence: And when

14 confronted on the inappropriateness of such meetings,

15 declined to provide the content of discussions with the

16 suspect because she had promised the suspect that she

17 wouldn't divulge the conversations to other

18 investigators. Is that true?

19        A. It's a multiple statement, but no, it's -

20 the statement is not true.

21        Q. None of it is true?

22        A. Correct.

23        Q. So you're saying that you did provide the

24 contents of your discussions with Patsy Ramsey at all

25 times?

Page 205

1 A. Yes.

2          Q. Did you ever indicate to anybody that you had

3 promised Patsy Ramsey that you wouldn't divulge the

4 conversations to other investigators?

5          A. No.

6          Q. Do you agree with the conclusion that your

7 behavior caused considerable distrust and consternation

8 within the investigative team?

9           MR. JONES: Object to the form, misstates

10 what the letter says.

11        A. What behavior?

12        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Read the last sentence of

13 that same bullet, where it says: That behavior,

14 coupled with some other behavior, caused considerable

15 distrust and consternation within the investigative

16 team. Do you believe that to be a true statement?

17        A. Not from what the team told me.

18        Q. What did the team tell you? And specify the

19 identity of the individual members.

20        A. At the March 19th '97 debriefing that was

21 held by - or through EAP -

22        Q. Through what? I didn't hear that.

23        A. EAP, nothing was mentioned about a

24 relationship between Patsy and I by the team members.

25        Q. Did anyone ever mention to you - anyone who

Page 206

1 was part of the Ramsey investigative team ever mention

2 to you their concern about your relationship with Patsy

3 Ramsey?

4          A. No.

5          Q. Did anyone ever comment to you regarding your

6 failure to provide the substance of your conversations

7 with Patsy Ramsey?

8          A. No.

9          Q. That includes Tom Wickman?

10        A. Yes.

11        Q. Do you don't recall his ever saying, I need

12 to have a report from you regarding the conversations

13 with Patsy Ramsey?

14        A. He did tell me that.

15        Q. Did you provide it to him?

16        A. Yes.

17        Q. In every instance?

18        A. Yes.

19        Q. So it's your testimony that anytime you had a

20 conversation or contact with Patsy Ramsey, you did a

21 report on it?

22        A. I reported on my contacts with Patsy Ramsey.

23        Q. My question was, is it your testimony that

24 every time you had contact with Patsy Ramsey, you

25 provided a report on that contact?

Page 207

1 A. Yes.

2          Q. Was that report in writing?

3          A. Not all.

4          Q. When you did not report in writing, how did

5 you report?

6          A. Verbally.

7          Q. To whom?

8          A. Sergeant Wickman.

9          Q. Did you at any time refuse to provide either

10 a written or verbal report of your conversations with

11 Patsy Ramsey?

12        A. No.

13        Q. Did you provide a report relating to each of

14 your contacts with Barb Fernie?

15        A. No. A written report, no.

16        Q. Did you ever provide an oral report?

17        A. Yes.

18        Q. To whom?

19        A. The investigative team.

20        Q. How often?

21        A. After every meeting with Ms. Fernie.

22        Q. How many contacts did you have with Patsy

23 Ramsey after December 26th?

24        A. I was called in by Eller - do you want me to

25 give the number or just -

Page 208

1 Q. The number of contacts you had with Patsy

2 Ramsey after December 26th, personal contacts with her.

3          A. So face-to-face ones, personal, is that what

4 you -

5          Q. Yes.

6          A. Three.

7          Q. When did they occur?

8          A. January 4th of '97, when Commander Eller

9 called me in and ordered me to be present when Patsy's

10 handwriting sample was taken. I believe it was

11 January 8th when - or if that date is wrong - of '97;

12 it was when Burke Ramsey was interviewed at the

13 Advocacy Center, and I was alone with Patsy in the

14 kitchen at the Advocacy Center. And the final time, I

15 think was mid to late - well, I don't remember when,

16 April, I think of '97.

17        Q. April of '97?

18        A. Yes.

19        Q. Where did that take place?

20        A. At Barb - at the Fernie home in Boulder.

21        Q. Those are the only three occasions you had

22 personal contact with Patsy Ramsey after December 26th?

23        A. I believe so.

24        Q. Did you have a conversation with her when she

25 came in to give a handwriting sample on January 4th

Page 209

1 '97?

2          A. She didn't come in. It was at Pete

3 Hofstrom's house.

4          Q. All right. Did you have a conversation with

5 her at the home?

6          A. I just instructed her on how to submit the

7 handwriting sample.

8          Q. Were you the one responsible for obtaining

9 the handwriting sample from her?

10        A. Yes, that one.

11        Q. Then the conversation in the kitchen of the

12 Advocacy Center that you had with Patsy Ramsey?

13        A. What about that?

14        Q. You indicated you had a conversation with her

15 when the two of you were alone in that kitchen.

16        A. Yes.

17        Q. What did that conversation concern?

18        A. I don't remember. I know it wasn't about

19 facts in the case. The only thing I can remember is

20 her talking about having cancer - her having cancer.

21        Q. Did you ever do a report on that conversation

22 in writing?

23        A. I did.

24        Q. Then you said you met in April of '97 with

25 Patsy Ramsey at the Fernies'?

Page 210

1 A. I believe it was April, yes.

2          Q. How did that meeting come about?

3          A. I was concerned about Patsy's well-being. So

4 I called her attorney, Patrick Burke, and asked if I

5 could meet with her face-to-face.

6          Q. What did he tell you?

7           MR. JONES: Want something to drink?

8           THE DEPONENT: Water is fine.

9          A. I don't remember a specific conversation. I

10 remember getting a phone call from Patsy, and that I

11 tape-recorded it, and it was put into evidence. She

12 was agreeable to the meeting.

13        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Where did the meeting take

14 place?

15        A. I said at the Fernies'.

16        Q. Who else was present?

17        A. Barb Fernie; Nedra Paugh, P-A-U-G-H, Patsy's

18 mother; and Patsy's attorney, Patrick Burke.

19        Q. Did Patrick Burke ever indicate to you why he

20 was allowing you, as a detective of the Boulder Police

21 Department, to meet with his client?

22        A. Before the meeting started, he said something

23 to the effect that, as an attorney, he should - he

24 might be considered crazy for allowing it, but he

25 trusted me.

Page 211

1 Q. Your conversation with Patsy at this time was

2 in the presence of others?

3          A. Yes.

4          Q. All the people you just mentioned, or just

5 some of those people?

6          A. Patrick Burke left shortly after I arrived

7 and after he laid out, again, the length of the

8 meeting.

9          Q. What did he lay out in that regard?

10        A. The meeting would last one hour. There would

11 be no conversation at all about the investigation.

12        Q. Did you follow those ground rules?

13        A. I did.

14        Q. The other individuals you named were present

15 during this conversation with Patsy?

16        A. Barb Fernie and Nedra Paugh, yes.

17        Q. What did you discuss with her during the one

18 hour? First of all, did you take an hour with her?

19        A. I believe from the time I arrived to the time

20 I left was about one hour. It wasn't any more. The

21 conversation was how her - how her mental health was

22 and how her physical health was. And the only other

23 thing I remember her talking about is her going to see

24 a performance in Denver of Patsy Kline or Patsy D.

25 Kline or whatever was playing at the 14th and Curtis

Page 212

1 Performing Arts Complex.

2          Q. Did you give a written report on that?

3          A. No.

4          Q. - meeting with Patsy Ramsey?

5          A. No.

6          Q. Why was that?

7          A. I gave a verbal report.

8          Q. You didn't think it was important to give a

9 written report concerning one of the prime suspects in

10 this murder?

11         MR. JONES: Objection, argumentative.

12        A. There was nothing discussed about the

13 investigation.

14        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) You agree you were having a

15 personal contact with one of the prime suspects in the

16 murder, correct?

17        A. Yes.

18        Q. Do you agree that anytime, just generally, if

19 you have a personal contact, a conversation with a

20 prime suspect of a serious crime, that you should have

21 a written report concerning that?

22        A. It should be documented.

23        Q. Should you provide a written report?

24        A. I'd say it should be documented.

25        Q. Well, by a written report?

Page 213

1 A. That's one means, yes.

2          Q. Well, I'm asking you if that is the means

3 that should be utilized.

4          A. That is a means, yes.

5          Q. I'm asking you if it should be the means in

6 terms of the way you conduct yourself as a detective.


7          A. A report should be written if there is

8 something of information to be provided in the report.

9          Q. The mere fact that you've met with a primary

10 suspect in a serious crime, that fact alone should be

11 documented in a written report, correct?

12        A. Documented, but not necessarily in a written

13 report.

14        Q. You believe that's proper as a detective?


15        A. There are documents known as investigative

16 notes; documents known as reports. So it would be

17 contained within an investigative note.

18        Q. But an investigative note does not summarize

19 what occurred, does it?

20        A. It can, and it cannot.

21        Q. A report is more complete; would you agree

22 with that?

23        A. Yes.

24        Q. You don't think, in terms of the way you

25 conducted yourself as a detective, it was required to

Page 214

1 have a report of your meeting with Patsy Ramsey at the

2 Fernies' as you've - in April of 1997?

3          A. Correct.

4          Q. Did you ever have lunch with Patsy Ramsey?

5          A. No.

6          Q. How many contacts did you have with - did

7 you ever - strike that.

8          Q. Did you ever have nonpersonal contacts with

9 Patsy Ramsey, by phone or letter or any other means,

10 that didn't involve a personal contact?

11        A. I've told you the contacts I've had with her.

12        Q. Do you want me to repeat the question?

13        A. Other than I've mentioned, I haven't had -

14 didn't have other contacts with Patsy.

15        Q. So you didn't have any other nonpersonal

16 contacts with Patsy; is that correct?

17        A. The only contacts I had with Patsy were the

18 ones that I've already told you about.

19        Q. Is the answer to my question yes?

20        A. I got lost. Would you ask me again?

21        Q. Are you saying you had no nonpersonal

22 contacts with Patsy Ramsey?

23         MR. JONES: Objection, misstates what she

24 just said.

25        A. No nonpersonal - well yes, I did have

Page 215

1 working contacts with her.

2          Q. (BY MR. HALABY) What were the form of those

3 contacts?

4          A. The handwriting that I told you.

5          Q. That was in person, right?

6          A. Correct.

7          Q. I'm talking about contacts with Patsy Ramsey

8 that weren't in person.

9          A. Okay.

10        Q. Did you have any of those?

11        A. The phone call that I told you about. She

12 called me.

13        Q. When was that call?

14        A. I don't remember. It was right before the

15 meeting with her at the Fernies'.

16        Q. Right before the meeting with her at the

17 Fernies'?

18        A. In that time frame.

19        Q. That's the meeting you were referring to?

20        A. Correct.

21        Q. What was the reason for her calling you?

22        A. As I remember, she said she agreed to meet

23 with me.

24        Q. Was that the first confirmation you had

25 received of her agreement to meet with you?

Page 216

1      A. Boy, I don't remember, but I think it was.

2          Q. How long was this phone call?

3          A. Brief.

4          Q. Did you document in writing this phone call

5 with Patsy Ramsey?

6          A. I tape-recorded it.

7          Q. Did you do it in any other way?

8          A. I don't remember. But I had turned over the

9 tape to evidence, either for me to put into evidence,

10 which I would have completed the evidence form, or

11 someone from the team. But I don't remember.

12        Q. To your knowledge, is that tape still in

13 evidence?

14        A. It should be.

15        Q. Did you ever have any other telephone contact

16 with Patsy Ramsey?

17        A. No.

18        Q. Did you ever have any written contact with

19 Patsy Ramsey?

20        A. No.

21        Q. Exchange letters or cards or anything of that

22 nature?

23        A. No.

24        Q. How many times did you have contact with Barb

25 Fernie?

Page 217

1 I do not know.

2          Q. Approximately.

3          A. Oh I would estimate about once a week.

4          Q. Over what period of time?

5          A. From December 26th until I was taken off the

6 case.

7          Q. Until you were off the case?

8          A. Taken off the case, yes.

9          Q. What was your reason for meeting weekly with

10 her during this period?

11         MR. JONES: Objection, misstates her

12 testimony.

13        A. I was told to get close to Barb Fernie.

14        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Who told you that?

15        A. Either Commander Eller or Sergeant Wickman.

16        Q. Did they tell you what you were to attempt to

17 accomplish?

18        A. Barb Fernie was known as - believed to be

19 Patsy Ramsey's closest friend, so an attempt to get

20 information on Patsy through Barb.

21        Q. Was that your sole purpose in meeting with

22 her weekly during this time period?

23        A. Yes.

24        Q. Did you ever have a social relationship with

25 Barb Fernie that went beyond your duties as a Boulder

Page 218

1 detective investigating the Ramsey matter?

2          A. No.

3          Q. Did you document each of these contacts with

4 Barb Fernie?

5          A. Yes.

6          Q. In what form?

7          A. I provided verbal presentations to the team

8 every week, and the person who was responsible for

9 taking the minutes of those meetings should have

10 documented that.

11        Q. Did you ever provide a written report

12 relating to any of your contacts with Barb Fernie?

13        A. If I interviewed her, yes.

14        Q. Can you recall ever doing that?

15        A. I don't remember.

16        Q. So today you don't recall whether or not you

17 ever did a written report on your contacts with Barb

18 Fernie?

19        A. Correct.

20        Q. When was the last time you contacted Barb

21 Fernie?

22        A. I think it was the end of the summer of '97.

23        Q. Describe the various things you would do when

24 you were with her during these weekly contacts.

25        A. Listen to her.

Page 219

1 Q. Anything else?

2          A. That's the majority of what I did.

3          Q. What were the occasions of your contacts?

4          A. I don't -

5          Q. Did you go walking with her?

6          A. Yes.

7          Q. Did you have lunch with her?

8          A. I don't think so.

9          Q. What other types of activities would you

10 pursue with her in these weekly contacts?

11        A. Oh, if she wanted to meet at the church, I

12 met her at the church. If she wanted to meet at her

13 house, I met her at her house.

14        Q. What church?

15        A. St. John's Pres.

16        Q. Was there a religious bond between the two of

17 you?

18        A. No.

19        Q. Why would she pick the church?

20        A. I remember her being deeply religious, and

21 she had been JonBenet Ramsey's Sunday school teacher.

22        Q. Did you feel you should share a similar

23 religious bond with her?

24        A. No.

25        Q. You're stating in your testimony that your

Page 220

1 only purpose in meeting with her weekly throughout the

2 work was as part of your investigation as a detective

3 on the Ramsey homicide?

4          A. It was an assignment.

5          Q. So the answer is yes?

6          A. Ask it again.

7           MR. HALABY: Would you read the question to

8 her?

9 (Page 220, line 25, through 221, line 3 was

10 read.)

11        A. It was one of my assignments, yes.

12        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) And that was your only

13 purpose in meeting with her?

14        A. Yes.

15        Q. Did she ever provide you any information that

16 you thought was helpful to the Ramsey investigation?

17        A. No.

18        Q. How many weeks were you on the Ramsey

19 investigation?

20        A. However many weeks it was from December 26th,

21 '96 to May 13 of '97.

22        Q. So when?

23        A. May 13th of '97.

24        Q. If you met weekly, you had approximately 16

25 or 18 contacts with Barb Fernie, correct?

Page 221

1 A. If that's what it figures out to, yes.

2          Q. You can't recall anything that came out of

3 these contacts that you deemed helpful to the Ramsey

4 investigation?

5          A. Correct.

6          Q. At any time during this period, did you go to

7 a superior and say, I don't want to do this anymore,

8 because I'm not getting anything out of it?

9          A. No.

10        Q. Did you enjoy your contacts with Barb Fernie?

11        A. Not particularly.

12        Q. Did you consider Barb Fernie a friend?

13        A. No.

14        Q. Did she consider you a friend, as far as you

15 know?

16        A. My understanding was that she considered me

17 someone she could talk to and who could provide her

18 with protection.

19        Q. Well, I assume that the reason she was

20 willing to do this, knowing you were an investigating

21 detective on this homicide with her best friend being

22 one of the suspects, was that she trusted you; is that

23 correct?

24         MR. JONES: Object to the form of the question.

25 question.

Page 222

1 A. I don't know why.

2          Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Did she ever express

3 anything to you in that regard, as to why she was

4 willing to meet with you frequently, knowing of your

5 role in the Ramsey investigation?

6          A. She said she trusted me; she knew I was a

7 cop but since I was plain-clothes, I didn't seem

8 like a cop.

9          Q. Do you think she liked you?

10        A. I think she trusted me.

11        Q. Do you think she liked you?

12        A. I don't know that I can answer that yes or

13 no. I'd say - this is just to answer it as best I

14 can - from the time that JonBenet was discovered dead,

15 Barb Fernie had an extremely difficult time believing

16 that JonBenet was dead. And she was the one who held

17 on to my arm and said, Don't leave, don't leave. So

18 she said that when she saw me, she - it helped her -

19 not accept, but that's kind of the gist she was getting

20 at, that JonBenet was dead.

21        Q. Did she ever express to you an opinion as to

22 whether or not John Ramsey killed JonBenet?

23        A. She was - it distressed her to think that

24 John or Patsy would be involved. And I don't remember

25 her expressing any direct comment about John Ramsey.

Page 223

1 Q. Did she think they were involved?

2          A. She, as I remember, never said out loud, I

3 think John and Patsy were involved. It would be more, I

4 can't believe John or Patsy would do this.

5          Q. Did you report that to your team?

6          A. Yes.

7          Q. Do you think there was anything you reported

8 to the team or - strike that.

9           Do you think there was anything that you

10 derived from your frequent contacts with Barb Fernie

11 that you felt was helpful to the investigation?

12         MR. JONES: Objection, asked and answered

13 twice.

14        A. No.

15        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) We digressed a little bit.

16 Let's go back to Exhibit 13, the letter from Eller to

17 Withers, and let's take the next bullet point -

18         MR. JONES: Can you identify which one you're

19 on, Counsel.

20         MR. HALABY: When I finish my question, I

21 will.

22         MR. JONES: I'm sorry, I thought you were.

23        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) The last bullet on the

24 first page. Other behavior referred to above included

25 disappearing where no one knew where she was. Was that

Page 224

1 an accurate statement?

2          A. No.

3          Q. Did you feel you accounted to your supervisor

4 at all times?

5          A. Yes.

6          Q. Sloughing assigned duties off on other

7 detectives, saying she was too busy to do things

8 herself. Is that an accurate statement?

9          A. No.

10        Q. You don't think you ever did that?

11        A. Pardon me?

12        Q. You don't think you ever did that?

13        A. Correct.


14        Q. Dodging supervisors who were asking for

15 reports or details on her activities? Is that true?

16        A. No.

17        Q. Do you recall any supervisor ever asking you

18 for reports or details on your activities?

19        A. Yes.

20        Q. Do you recall any supervisor ever indicating

21 to you that they weren't being provided the necessary

22 reports from you?

23        A. No.

24        Q. So to this day, your understanding, without

25 exception, was no one ever criticized you - no

Page 225

1 superior ever criticized you for not providing timely

2 reports?

3          A. Correct.

4          Q. Next one: Being more rude than normal. Is

5 that a correct statement?

6          A. Well, I don't think so, but it's rather

7 subjective, isn't it?

8          Q. I guess it speaks for itself.

9           Not keeping reports up to date. Was that

10 accurate?

11        A. Yes.

12        Q. Let me just ask you about when you were a

13 detective for the Boulder Police Department, you knew

14 you had to provide reports on your activities in the

15 investigation in a criminal matter, correct?

16        A. I knew reports were needed when there was new

17 information I had learned.

18        Q. So your understanding was reports were only

19 to be provided when new information was obtained in any

20 criminal investigation you were involved in; is that

21 correct?

22        A. That's pretty much when you provide reports.

23        Q. That was your understanding?

24        A. Yes.

25        Q. That's the way you performed your duties?

Page 226

1 A. With respect to Ramsey?

2          Q. With respect to all of your activities as a

3 detective for the Boulder Police Department.

4          A. It would be easier for me to tell you than to

5 answer you the way you've formed the question.

6          Q. I'm sorry?

7 It would be easier for me to tell you than

8 the way you have formed your question.

9          Q. Well, my question is a rather simple one. In

10 performing your duties as a detective for the Boulder

11 Police Department -

12        A. Uh-huh.

13        Q. - was it your understanding that you were

14 only to provide written reports on your activities when

15 new matter was obtained?

16        A. As a detective, I would keep investigative

17 notes which detailed an account of what I did. And

18 then I had my handwritten notes, and at the conclusion

19 of the investigation, I would complete a written

20 report.

21        Q. Did you provide all of these investigative

22 notes and handwritten notes to the investigative file

23 maintained by the Boulder Police Department?

24        A. No.

25        Q. Why not?

Page 227

1 A. They weren't asked.

2          Q. In performing your duties as a detective for

3 the Boulder Police Department, you didn't feel it was

4 necessary for you, as a matter of course, to provide

5 any investigative notes you had to the official file

6 maintained by the Boulder Police Department relating to

7 their investigation?

8          A. They have my notes from the first days.

9           MR. HALABY: Would you repeat the question,

10 please.

11 (The last question was read.)

12        A. There needs to be a chain of command for

13 evidence. So the way you asked it, no.

14        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Were there investigative

15 notes you kept in the Ramsey matter that you didn't

16 turned over to be kept as part of the investigative file

17 on the Ramsey investigation?

18        A. Some.

19        Q. How did you decide what investigative

20 reports - or investigative notes you would turn over

21 and what investigative notes you would not turn over in

22 the Ramsey investigation?

23        A. I turned over the notes that were asked.

24        Q. So you had to be asked for the notes as

25 opposed to your feeling it just part of your

Page 228

1 responsibility as a detective in the Ramsey

2 investigation to turn over those notes?

3          A. I knew that Mason had turned his notes over,

4 and they went into evidence, and they now are

5 unaccounted for. And I did not want the same thing to

6 happen should I turn over notes without any kind of

7 chain of command for the evidence.

8          Q. What do you mean by "chain of command for the

9 evidence?"

10        A. Documentation that shows the handling of each

11 piece of evidence.

12        Q. Were there procedures already set up for this

13 purpose?

14        A. No.

15        Q. Did you ever complain to anybody in that

16 regard?

17        A. No.

18        Q. Why?

19        A. Who was I to go to that would listen to me?

20        Q. So that was your feeling?

21        A. Correct.

22        Q. Was that your feeling as to all matters; you

23 had no one to go to?

24        A. Within the police department?

25        Q. Right.

Page 229

1 A. Correct.

2          Q. Did that govern all your activities in terms

3 of your communication in the police department relating

4 to your official duties; you had no one to go to?

5          A. I don't understand what you're asking.

6          Q. Well, the keeping of investigative notes

7 would be a pretty important matter in any criminal

8 investigation, would it not?

9          A. No.

10        Q. No? Why is that?

11        A. After your report is written, most notes are

12 destroyed. That was my practice.

13        Q. But I thought you earlier testified that

14 sometimes you had investigative notes in lieu of

15 written reports; am I correct?

16        A. I testified I would keep notes, and then once

17 the reports were written - I didn't testify to this,

18 but I'm telling you now - I would destroy the notes.

19        Q. Did you ever have investigative notes that

20 did not result in a written report?

21        A. Yes.

22        Q. What would you then do with those

23 investigative notes?

24        A. Once my case file report was written, I would

25 destroy the notes.

Page 230

1 Q. You just informed me that there are times you

2 had investigative notes that did not result in a

3 report. My question is, in those instances, what did

4 you do with the investigative notes when they were not

5 thereafter encompassed in a written report?

6          A. Then I misunderstood you.

7          Q. All right. Well, explain - let me rephrase

8 the question.

9           Was there ever a time in your role as a

10 detective for the Boulder Police Department that

11 investigative notes you kept were not ultimately

12 reflected in a written report you wrote that became

13 part of the file of the Boulder Police Department?

14        A. You're going to have to rephrase it. You

15 lost me with the length.

16        Q. Well, we're talking about investigative

17 notes, correct?

18        A. Uh-huh.

19        Q. And we're talking about written reports,

20 correct?

21        A. (Deponent nodded head up and down.)

22        Q. And you draw a distinction between the two,

23 correct?

24        A. Yes.

25        Q. You've indicated in your testimony today that

Page 231

1 you have kept investigative reports that -

2 investigative notes that have not resulted in written

3 reports that you provided the department, correct?

4          A. I think so, yes.

5          Q. What would you do with those investigative

6 notes that were not incorporated in the written report?

7          A. The case I'm thinking of was one of the last

8 cases I worked on, and it was notes I took on reviewing

9 a videotape done by another jurisdiction. So it was

10 included in the case file -

11        Q. So you're saying that your investigative

12 notes, as opposed to written reports, were always

13 included in the case file -

14        A. No.

15        Q. - no matter what matter you were working on?

16        A. No.

17        Q. With the Ramsey matter, did you ever keep

18 investigative notes that weren't included in the -

19 that were never formulized in a written report?

20        A. Some.

21        Q. What caused you not to incorporate them in a

22 written report, whereas other investigative notes would

23 be incorporated in a written report?

24        A. I wasn't able to do a report.

25        Q. Why is that?

Page 232

1 A. Didn't have the time.

2          Q. So to this day, there are investigative notes

3 on the Ramsey matter that you kept that are not

4 ultimately incorporated in the written report?

5          A. Yes.

6          Q. Where are those investigative notes?

7          A. In a safe place.

8          Q. Where is that safe place?

9          A. I am not going to tell you.

10        Q. Why is that?

11        A. I'd like to keep it a safe place.

12        Q. You're refusing to tell me?

13        A. Correct.

14        Q. Are you concerned about the security of those

15 notes?

16        A. Yes.

17        Q. Is that because of the subject matter of

18 those notes?

19        A. No.

20        Q. Then why are you concerned about the security

21 of those notes?

22        A. Given what I told you happened to Mason's

23 notes.

24        Q. There is always a way of making a copy for

25 your own personal file and providing those notes, is

Page 233

1 there not?

2          A. Yes.

3          Q. Did you ever do that -

4          A. No.

5          Q. - as it relates to those notes?

6          A. No.

7          Q. Why?

8          A. I didn't hear you.

9          Q. Why?

10        A. Why what?

11        Q. Why didn't you provide those notes to the

12 official Boulder police file, retaining a copy if you

13 were concerned about whether or not they would

14 disappear?

15        A. I told you why.

16        Q. No, you haven't, but you can tell me right

17 now.

18        A. Okay. There was no one to turn them over to

19 officially, and I didn't want what happened to Mason's

20 notes to happen to mine.

21        Q. But if you retained a copy, then there would

22 always be a copy, correct?

23        A. If I did, yes.

24        Q. Are you willing to make a copy of those notes

25 and turn them over at this point in time?

Page 234

1 A. To?

2          Q. To the Boulder Police Department.

3          A. Yes.

4          Q. Has anyone previously ever asked you or were

5 they - to your knowledge, prior to this moment, has

6 anyone in the Boulder Police Department been aware that

7 you have kept investigative notes relating to the

8 Ramsey investigation?

9          A. I don't know.

10        Q. Can you give us an understanding as to the

11 volume of these notes?

12        A. Maybe two, three steno books.

13         MR. HALABY: We've been going about an hour

14 and a half. We'll take a break at this time.

15         MR. JONES: Great.

16 (Break was taken.)

17        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) We're going through

18 Exhibit 13, the Eller letter to Wilhera of July 14 of

19 '97. Going to the top of the second page of that

20 letter, third line from the top, is the allegation that

21 you were generally not being accountable to anyone,

22 peer or supervisor. Do you agree with that statement?

23        A. No.

24        Q. Do you have any understanding why Eller would

25 have arrived at that conclusion?

Page 235

1 A. No.

2          Q. At one point the investigative team was

3 forced into a stress debriefing to help Linda come to

4 grips with others frustrations with her. Did that

5 occur?

6          A. There was a stress debriefing. The context

7 for it - I was given a different context.

8          Q. What was your context?

9          A. That the investigative team needed to have a

10 debriefing to help with the stressors - or the stress

11 each individual was under.

12        Q. Ultimately Detective Arndt was - wait. I

13 skipped a bullet. The next bullet there on the second

14 page: Linda was confronted with regard to all of the

15 above issues on several occasions by her supervisor,

16 myself, and the Chief of Police. Is that true?

17        A. No.

18        Q. Did it ever occur?

19        A. Did what ever occur?

20        Q. That you were confronted regarding those

21 issues listed above by either Eller, your supervisor,

22 or the chief.

23        A. Confronted, no. Wickman had what he said was

24 an informal conversation with me about Eller wanted -

25 Eller didn't see me physically in the building, and

Page 236

1 Eller wanted to know where I was.

2          Q. Had Eller ever personally spoken with you

3 about any of these issued?

4          A. I wouldn't use the word "spoken," but Eller

5 talked to me and yelled at me about where was I.

6          Q. On how many occasions?

7          A. I don't know; more than once.

8          Q. This was during the Ramsey investigation?

9          A. Yes.

10        Q. Did Wickman ever talk to you regarding the

11 same subject matter?

12        A. Once. He said he knew that I was doing my

13 job, but Eller wanted Wickman to talk to me.

14        Q. So as far as what Wickman told you and

15 indicated to you, Wickman never had a personal concern

16 about your not reporting your whereabouts?

17        A. He didn't have a supervisory concern.

18        Q. The next sentence of that bullet: Linda

19 became more and more defensive, setting up or attending

20 meetings not related to disciplinary issues accompanied

21 by union representatives or attorneys; is that true?

22        A. I don't know what he means by that.

23        Q. The next sentence: At one meeting she had

24 requested with the chief she placed a tape-recorder on

25 the table, took notes dramatically, and was accompanied

Page 237

1 by a union president and union representative. Did

2 that occur?

3          A. I did have a meeting with Chief Koby. I did

4 have a tape-recorder that I put on the table. I don't

5 know about taking notes dramatically.

6          Q. Took notes?

7          A. Took, take. And accompanied by a union

8 president and union representative -

9          Q. And what was -

10        A. - yes.

11        Q. - the purpose of the meeting? I'm sorry.

12        A. Yes.

13        Q. What was the purpose of the meeting?

14        A. That was a follow-up meeting, when I

15 initially met with Chief Koby with Mike Pease, and it

16 was a meeting at the behalf - or made at the behalf of

17 Chief Koby.

18        Q. What was the subject matter?

19        A. I believe the three topics were safety

20 concerns I had; communication issues between myself and

21 Sergeant Wickman; and the downsizing of the Ramsey

22 investigative team.

23        Q. Do you still have the tape?

24        A. No.

25        Q. What did you do with it?

Page 238

1 A. Attorney has it.

2          Q. What were your safety concerns?

3          A. I think we addressed this the last time we

4 talked. But the initial report I had prepared on the

5 Ramsey case had been given to Ramsey attorneys without

6 my knowledge, much less permission.

7          Q. The initial report?

8          A. Correct.

9          Q. What was this report?

10        A. It's the one that details what I did on

11 December 26th.

12        Q. Is that the one?

13        A. That looks like it, yes.

14        Q. Your fear for - I believe you indicated your

15 fear for your safety was related to John Ramsey.

16         MR. JONES: Objection, misstates her prior

17 testimony.

18        A. I said I didn't know. Directly, John Ramsey,

19 I doubted. But he had information now that he knew

20 what I had observed that day.

21        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Were there others other

22 than John Ramsey which gave you concern for your

23 safety?

24         MR. JONES: Objection. Asked and answered

25 last time.

Page 239

1 A. I did answer this last time.

2          Q. (BY MR. HALABY) I don't recall. Who was

3 it?

4          A. Safety of myself and those close to me, I'd

5 say I had concerns.

6          Q. But I mean in terms of who would cause you

7 that concern. You did go in depth in terms of John

8 Ramsey being one of the individuals who caused you

9 concern in that regard, but -

10        A. No, I did not.

11        Q. - there were others?

12        A. No, I didn't go into depth saying it was John

13 Ramsey.

14        Q. Well, you talked about counting the number of

15 rounds in your gun.

16        A. You're mixing time periods.

17        Q. Well, let me ask you, then - perhaps I'm

18 confused. Are you saying you never had a concern for

19 your safety as it related to John Ramsey after

20 December 26th of '96?

21         MR. JONES: Objection. All this was asked

22 and answered at the prior deposition in depth.

23        A. I agree. I've already answered that.

24        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) What's the answer? I don't

25 remember that. I remember discussing with you -

Page 240

1           MR. JONES: Objection, asked -

2          Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Just tell me who had a


3 concern - who concerned you relating to your safety

4 after December 26th?

5          A. The answer is in the past deposition, so -

6          Q. No, you give me the answer now. 

7          A. There was no name I had.

8          Q. So you're saying you couldn't identify

9 anybody that gave you this concern; is that what you

10 mean by saying there's no name you had? 

11        A. Correct. 

12        Q. So it's just a general feeling? 

13        A. No.

14        Q. What is it? If you can't give me a name, and 

15 you have this concern, what is it?

16         MR. JONES: Objection, argumentative. 

17        A. I believe I stated this - answered this the


18 last time for you; however, I'll try to answer it

19 again. Search warrants had just been unsealed. My

20 role, being that I was the only named person inside the

21 Ramsey house when the kidnapping turned into a murder,          

22 was now highly publicized. John Ramsey, through his

23 attorneys, had access to that information. So I - and

24 I had just gotten an award in which a picture was

25 publicly - publicated - there was a picture in the

Page 241

1 newspaper published with my three-year-old nephew. So

2 I had safety concerns for myself in general and with

3 others close to me.

4          Q. (BY MR. HALABY) In general, but not as it

5 related to anything specific?

6           MR. JONES: Objection, misstates what she

7 just testified to.

8          A. I was a central witness in a very high

9 profile case. So yes, I was concerned.

10        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) But not as it related to

11 any specific source as being a threat to your safety?

12        A. Indirectly, with John Ramsey, a main suspect,

13 having knowledge that he should not have had without

14 being named a suspect; yes, I was concerned for my

15 safety and the safety of those close to me.

16        Q. When you were removed from the Ramsey team,

17 how were you first informed of this?

18        A. Sergeant Wickman told me.

19        Q. Was this in a personal conference with him?

20        A. He came to my cubicle. He asked if I had a

21 minute. I followed him into his office.

22        Q. Tell me everything you recall about that

23 conversation.

24        A. I guess I'm doing that instead of your

25 original question.

Page 242

1           He closed the door. He had me sit down. He

2 asked me if I knew what this was about. I didn't. I

3 said no. And he said that two people were being taken

4 off the Ramsey team. I was one of them. Melissa

5 Hickman was the other. Hickman was going to be

6 assisting on the Sid Wells homicide case, and I would

7 be going back to general detectives.

8          Q. Did he say anything else?

9          A. That's what I remember.

10        Q. Did you say anything?

11        A. I think I asked him, Effective when?

12        Q. What did he tell you?

13        A. I believe it was that moment.

14        Q. Did you ask him anything else?

15        A. I don't think so.

16        Q. Did you ever ask him why?

17        A. I had already asked that.

18        Q. What was his response to why?

19        A. That was in the meeting with Chief Koby and

20 Commander Eller and Sergeant Wickman.

21        Q. In that meeting, you were aware you were

22 being removed from the Ramsey team?

23        A. No.

24        Q. I'm now talking about your meeting with Tom

25 Wickman. Did you ever ask him why you were being

Page 243

1 removed?

2          A. No.

3          Q. Were you relieved to be removed?

4          A. No.

5          Q. What were your emotions?

6          A. I am trying to remember. I was incredulous.

7          Q. Is that about it, describing your emotions?

8          A. That's the main one.

9          Q. Any others?

10        A. That's what I remember.

11        Q. But you never asked why?

12        A. I had already asked that.

13        Q. You never asked Tom Wickman why when he told

14 you you were being removed from the team?

15        A. Correct.

16        Q. In that prior meeting with the others, you

17 never asked them why you were being removed from the

18 team, is that correct, because you didn't know?

19        A. I was told it was unknown who was going to be

20 removed from the team. And I had asked for whomever

21 was removed, that it would be explained to that

22 individual or individuals how that selection occurred

23 and the process that was involved and whose decision

24 made it. That's roughly what I remember asking.

25        Q. So it's accurate to state that in that

Page 244

1 meeting, because you didn't know you were the one being

2 removed, that you never asked why you were being

3 removed, correct?

4          A. Correct.

5          Q. Now, did Tom Wickman or anybody else give you

6 a reason for why you were being removed?

7          A. Yes.

8          Q. All right. Tell me the reason or reasons and

9 who gave you those reason or reasons.

10        A. It wasn't what I had asked from the meeting.

11 Wickman just had said I was going back to general

12 detectives to help with the workload.

13        Q. Did you ask him why the Ramsey team was being

14 reduced in size?

15        A. No.

16        Q. Did he tell you the Ramsey team was being

17 reduced in size?

18        A. He said Melissa and I were being removed.

19        A. Did he say there was a reason for reducing

20 the size of the Ramsey team?

21        A. No.

22        Q. Did he indicate to you whether or not you and

23 Melissa were going to be replaced on the Ramsey team?

24        A. No.

25        Q. What was your understanding leaving that


Page 245

1 meeting whether or not you would be - you and Melissa

2 would be replaced on the Ramsey team?

3          A. There wasn't. There wasn't an understanding.

4          Q. So you didn't know whether or not you would

5 be - when you left the meeting, whether or not you

6 would be replaced?

7          A. Well, downsized doesn't indicate replaced.

8          Q. So he told you it was being downsized?

9          A. No.

10        Q. You just used the word "downsized." Who gave

11 you that word?

12        A. Eller.

13        Q. That was the original meeting before this?

14        A. No.

15        A. When did Eller tell you it was being

16 downsized?

17        A. Eller made an announcement to the

18 investigative team April 1st - around the first part

19 of April. He also made a much more detailed

20 announcement to general detectives, and I heard through

21 one of the detectives.

22        Q. At the time he made the announcement, did you

23 suspect you were going to be one of the ones removed

24 from the team?

25        A. Not at all.

Page 246

1 Q. Did you feel your presence on the team was

2 disruptive and caused considerable problems?

3          A. No.

4          Q. Going on in the same bullet: She refused to

5 conform to the routine of the rest of the team. Is

6 that true?

7          A. I don't know what he means by that.

8          Q. That you were unreliable in attending

9 meetings and sharing information. Is that true?

10        A. No.

11        Q. And your relationship with the suspects in

12 the case was disturbing to the other detectives and

13 supervisor. Is that true?

14        A. Not to my knowledge.

15        Q. Do you think Eller just made up all this

16 stuff in this letter?

17        A. Don't know.

18        Q. You don't have an opinion one way or the

19 other on it?

20        A. Correct.

21        Q. He says your written reports were not up to

22 date and no amount of coaxing would get you to catch

23 up. Is that true?

24        A. No.

25        Q. You don't recall any supervisor talking to

Page 247

1 you regarding your failure to keep your reports up to

2 date?

3          A. Correct.

4          Q. The next sentence: Until the time she faced

5 being removed from the team, her reports were

6 approximately four to five months behind. Is that

7 correct?

8          A. No.

9          Q. Are you saying that's totally wrong?

10        A. I'm saying that's not correct.

11        Q. How is it incorrect?

12        A. I don't know what reports he's referring to.

13        Q. Well, let's assume he meant the reports

14 you're responsible for doing as a member of the - as a

15 detective and part of the Ramsey investigation team.

16        A. No.

17        Q. At the time you faced being removed, were all

18 your reports current at that very moment?

19        A. No.

20        Q. What was the status of your reports in terms

21 of how many were due that hadn't been done?

22        A. I don't know.

23        Q. You said at the time you had - if I

24 understood you correctly, you just told me that at the

25 time you faced being removed, your reports had not all

Page 248

1 been filed timely at that moment; is that right?

2          A. I had not completed all reports.

3          Q. The reports you had not completed concerned

4 events that were how old?

5          A. I don't know.

6          Q. Can you approximate for us?

7          A. No.

8          Q. Then how do you know it's inaccurate to state

9 they were approximately four to five months behind?

10        A. December and January were taken care of.

11        Q. I'm sorry?

12        A. December and January were taken care of.

13        Q. That wasn't my question.

14        A. That's my answer. Four to five months.

15        Q. All right.

16         He states: Clearly Linda was viewed as more

17 of a problem than an asset at the time. Did you share

18 that view?

19        A. No.

20        Q. To your knowledge, did anyone else share

21 that view?

22        A. I don't know.

23        Q. Does it surprise you that Eller shared that

24 view at the time?

25        A. Yes.

Page 249

1 Q. Do you see the allegation in the last bullet

2 on that second page near the bottom: Linda explained

3 to Ms. Hanley that she could not deal with or did not

4 trust her supervisors at the police department.

5          A. Where are you at?

6          Q. Four lines from the bottom of the last bullet

7 on the second page of that letter.

8          A. What did you ask me, or did you just say -

9          Q. Is that a true statement relating to your

10 conversation with Ms. Hanley?

11        A. I don't remember saying those phrases to

12 Ms. Hanley.

13        Q. Does it accurately reflect your belief,

14 however, that you could not deal with or did not trust

15 your supervisors at the police department?

16        A. I believe what I told her is that I felt

17 discriminated by Sergeant Wickman, Commander Eller,

18 Chief Koby.

19        Q. In what respect?

20        A. We've gone through this list in the last

21 deposition.

22        Q. In terms of how you were being discriminated?

23        A. Yes.

24        Q. I don't recall that. How were you being

25 discriminated by those three?

Page 250

1 A. My activities and conduct and behavior were

2 focused on and targeted, and others' were not.

3          Q. You were at Tom Wickman's deposition,

4 correct? You were at Tom Wickman's deposition in this

5 case?

6          A. You mumbled. What did you say?

7          Q. You were at Tom Wickman's deposition in this

8 case?

9          A. Yes.

10        Q. Do you recall his testifying about a

11 statement you made to him that you didn't trust

12 supervisors?

13        A. He did say that.

14        Q. Was he accurate in quoting you in that

15 regard?

16        A. No.

17        Q. Did you ever mention that to him?

18         MR. JONES: Objection, vague.

19        A. I don't remember stating it - making that

20 phrase.

21        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Do you recall making a

22 statement to Tom Wickman to the effect that you didn't

23 trust supervisors?

24        A. No.

25        Q. Was that your feeling at the time?

Page 251

1 A. What time?

2          Q. At the time Tom Wickman became a sergeant;

3 that you didn't trust supervisors.

4          A. No.

5          Q. Was it your feeling at any time during that

6 period when you were part of the Ramsey investigative

7 team that you didn't trust supervisors?

8          A. There were certain supervisors I had concerns

9 regarding trust.

10        Q. Who were those supervisors you didn't trust?

11        A. During the Ramsey investigation?

12        Q. Right.

13        A. Commander Eller, Sergeant Wickman.

14        Q. Did you have any other supervisors in the

15 Ramsey investigation?

16        A. Directly, no.

17        Q. So is it accurate to state you didn't trust

18 any of those supervisors that had direct supervision

19 over you in the Ramsey investigation?

20        A. I trusted Larry Mason.

21        Q. Anybody else that had direct supervision over

22 you that you did trust?

23        A. Bob Whitson.

24        Q. Anybody else?

25        A. And Paul Reichenbach.

Page 252

1 Q. Anybody else?

2          A. I think those were the supervisors.

3          Q. Do you feel you can work effectively in a

4 criminal investigation if you can't trust your

5 supervisors?

6          A. I think it makes it difficult.

7          Q. Would you agree that you cannot be as

8 effective if you can't trust your supervisors?

9          A. Depending on the areas of trust.

10        Q. On these areas of mistrust that you had with

11 respect to Commander Eller and Sergeant Wickman.

12        A. Initially, yes, I could.

13        Q. You could what?

14        A. Work with them.

15        Q. But it came to a point where you couldn't;

16 is that correct?

17        A. I feel it was more their mistrust of me.

18        Q. But in any event, the situation existed where

19 there was mistrust between you and those two

20 supervisors?

21        A. Between those two supervisors and I, yes.

22        Q. Which was detrimental to your performance as

23 a detective in the Ramsey investigation?

24        A. Yes.

25        Q. Do you have a distrust of Tom Koby?

Page 253

1 A. No.

2          Q. At the very bottom of page 2, it makes the

3 statement: Linda becomes agitated very quickly in team

4 settings or meetings. Is that true?

5          A. No.

6          Q. Next sentence: Her eyes widen noticeably,

7 and she hyperventilates, taking short, shallow breaths,

8 which affect her speech. Is any of that true?

9          A. Well, my eyes are expressive, so they may

10 widen.

11        Q. I've noticed that.

12        A. I remember one meeting when I drank coffee

13 beforehand, so I had the shakes, and I'm sure that my

14 speech was affected.

15        Q. You're sure what? What was the last thing

16 you said?

17        A. My speech was affected.

18        Q. That was just from the coffee?

19        A. Absolutely, on an empty stomach.

20        Q. Were you suffering any physical maladies at

21 the time?

22        A. No.

23        Q. That affected your health?

24        A. Was I sick you mean?

25        Q. Yes, or he refers to physical maladies. Was

Page 254

1 there anything physically wrong with you that was

2 affecting your work at the time?

3          A. No.

4          Q. Did you ever see the report that Richard

5 Wilhera gave?

6          A. No.

7          Q. Were you examined by Richard Wilhera?

8          A. Yes.

9          Q. What was the form of this examination? What

10 happened? How did this take place?

11        A. It was - I was ordered to meet with

12 Dr. Wilhers before I could return to work.

13        Q. You met with him once or more than once?

14        A. I met with him one full day. And Wilhera had

15 called Sergeant Eller - or Commander Eller or

16 Commander Bernard and said I was fine to return to

17 work. And Eller said he wanted more testing, so I had

18 to go through another day.

19        Q. Did you ever have a breakfast meeting with

20 Chief Koby?

21        A. I did.

22        Q. When was that?

23        A. Early April before the 16th, '97.

24        Q. What was the purpose?

25        A. I think he invited me.

Page 255

1 Q. What was your understanding as to the

2 purpose?

3          A. It would not be unusual for Chief Koby and I

4 to have breakfast.

5          Q. Did you frequently have breakfast?

6          A. Once or twice a year, maybe.

7          Q. Did you understand what the purpose of this

8 particular breakfast meeting was going to be?

9          A. I thought it was for Chief Koby to

10 congratulate me on the award I was about to receive.

11 And we also talked about the Ramsey case.


12        Q. You knew ahead of time this would be the

13 purpose of the meeting?

14        A. No.

15        Q. My question maybe wasn't clear, but my

16 question was, when this breakfast meeting was arranged,

17 were you aware prior to that meeting as to what the

18 purpose of the meeting would be?

19        A. I don't remember.

20        Q. Was there anyone else at this breakfast

21 meeting other than you and Chief Koby?

22        A. No.

23        Q. Where did the meeting take place?

24        A. Dot's Diner on the hill.

25        Q. How long a meeting was it?

Page 256

1 Q. Well, we ate breakfast, about an hour, I'm

2 guessing.

3          Q. What was discussed, to the best of your

4 recollection?

5          A. He congratulated me on the award I was about

6 to receive from the DA's office. And we talked about

7 the Ramsey case. I remember sharing my opinions about

8 the case. I remember Chief Koby - I think I expressed

9 a concern about a lack of leadership. I remember Chief

10 Koby saying that Sergeant Wickman kept flip-flopping on

11 him, and he needed Sergeant Wickman to stop changing

12 his mind.

13         I think I laid out in detail why I believed

14 John Ramsey was responsible for JonBenet's murder. And

15 that's the gist of what I remember.

16        Q. What specific criticism did you have of your

17 supervisors in this meeting with Chief Koby?

18        A. There was a lack of leadership. There was no

19 one person making the decisions and no one person

20 seemingly able or willing to make a decision.

21        Q. Who did you attribute this fault to

22 specifically?

23        A. I don't know that I did.

24        Q. Who were you referring to?

25        A. The two supervisors that were involved in the

Page 257

1 case, but were not speaking to each other, Commander

2 Eller and Sergeant Wickman.

3          Q. So you had difficulty getting direction from

4 Sergeant Wickman?

5          A. What I remember telling Chief Koby was that

6 Eller and Wickman appeared to be in conflict between

7 each other, and the information that Wickman had was

8 not shared with Eller. And Eller would become really

9 angry when he learned of information that Wickman had

10 that wasn't passed up to Eller.

11        Q. What else was discussed at this meeting?

12        A. That's what I remember.

13        Q. What did Chief Koby say about these topics?

14        A. Well, I told you about Sergeant Wickman to

15 stop flip-flopping. Chief Koby believed Patsy was

16 responsible for JonBenet's murder. That's what I

17 remember.

18        Q. Did you and he share analysis of your

19 respective opinions in that regard?

20        A. What do you mean by that?

21        Q. Well, you just told us that you thought it

22 was John, and then you told us that Chief Koby thought

23 it was Patsy. Did you compare analyses in terms of

24 what led you respectively to those conclusions?

25        A. I believe I already said I told Chief Koby my

Page 258

1 reasoning for identifying John.

2          Q. Was this new information or information you

3 had previously reported in the Ramsey team meetings?

4          A. None of it should have been new information.

5          Q. So you thought you were just summarizing

6 information you had previously provided in these team

7 meetings?

8          A. Correct.

9          Q. Did it relate to any evidence beyond what you

10 observed on December 26th?

11        A. Yes.

12        Q. Did it relate to any evidence that you had

13 not previously documented in a report that was part of

14 the police department file?

15        A. The evidence I'm referring to is just the

16 incest dynamic, the explanation.

17        Q. As to what?

18        A. Insist dynamic, that knowledge and

19 understanding.

20        Q. Was that ever provided in a written report

21 prior to this meeting with Chief Koby?

22        A. That was a presentation that I had given to

23 the whole team. I think Chief Koby was present.

24        Q. So this was just a conclusion you formed from

25 that presentation, is that right, along with other

Page 259

1 matters you were aware of?

2          A. No. What I learned from that presentation, I

3 had known before. So this was - presentation was for

4 the other team to gain that understanding as well.

5          Q. How did you know this breakfast meeting took

6 place shortly before April 17 of '97?

7          A. 16th.

8          Q. I thought you said 17th, but either date, why

9 is that particular date important?

10        A. Because that's when I got this award from the

11 DA's office.

12        Q. Did you have any personal conferences with

13 Sergeant Wickman concerning your performance in the

14 Ramsey investigation?

15        A. Could you be more specific on what you're

16 asking.

17        Q. Yes. Did you and Sergeant Wickman ever meet

18 to discuss any problems he had with your performance in

19 the Ramsey investigation?

20        A. Yes.

21        Q. On how many occasions?

22        A. Two that I remember.

23        Q. When did these meetings take place?

24        A. February 13th of '97 and the 20th or 21st

25 of March of '97.

Page 260

1 Q. How do you remember those specific dates?

2          A. From the discovery. There was a supervisory

3 note or performance note - something Sergeant Wickman

4 had filled out in my employee file, and that was dated

5 February 13th. And I remember he was out of town when

6 I had been trying to meet with him, and he wanted to

7 meet with me, and it was informally done at Turley’s

8 restaurant.

9          Q. Did you, I take it, take the time to review

10 the documents obtained by your counsel in the discovery

11 in this case?

12        A. Some.

13        Q. Did you feel it important for you to review

14 to see if there was any information that you thought

15 might be helpful to your case?

16        A. Yes.

17        Q. What do you recall from memory as to those

18 two meetings as to what his criticisms of you were?

19        A. In the February meeting, he said he didn't

20 have any criticisms of me. It was an informal meeting.

21 He was just going to talk. Nothing was going to go in

22 my file. He was meeting with me because Eller told him

23 to meet with me. Wickman understood that everyone was

24 busy and doing their work, and Eller had a concern or

25 problem that he didn't see me physically within the

Page 261

1 Boulder Police Department enough, so he didn't know -

2 Eller did not know what I was doing.

3           Wickman said he knew that I was doing my job,

4 but Eller wanted to know where I was. And I said,

5 Well, I signed out on the board where I'm at. And from

6 that day - from that conversation on, until we met

7 again on the 20th or 21st of March, I told Wickman that I

8 would check with Wickman in the morning and at the end

9 of the day and tell him what my plans were for that

10 day, and then call him or meet with him at the end of

11 the day and also let him know what I had done.

12        Q. You volunteered to do this, or did he ask you

13 to do this?

14        A. I volunteered this.

15        Q. So that's not something he said was going to

16 be required?

17        A. Correct.

18        Q. Now, that was at the February meeting; is

19 that correct?

20        A. Yes.

21        Q. Then what happened in the March meeting?

22        A. It was after the mandatory stress debriefing

23 that took place on a Wednesday. And it was either

24 Thursday late afternoon or Friday late afternoon, I

25 don't remember which day. Wickman came up to me, and

Page 262

1 he asked, Do you got a minute? And then he asked to

2 meet me outside the detective bureau by a picnic

3 table.

4           And I asked Jane Harmer and Steve Thomas to

5 accompany me, because we had talked in the stress

6 debriefing with the team, so that there would be no

7 miscommunication between myself and supervisors and

8 that team members wouldn't feel left out if it was

9 related to the team, that the team would be present, so

10 they would also know.

11        Q. So Harmer and who else?

12        A. Steve Thomas.

13        Q. So they came to this meeting with Wickman?

14        A. Well, Wickman was at the picnic table, and

15 Harmer, Thomas and I walked out to meet him.

16        Q. What did you want to discuss with Wickman at

17 that time?

18        A. I didn't know. He told me to meet with him.

19        Q. So what happened at the meeting?

20        A. I told Sergeant Wickman that - so there

21 would be open communication between the team, that I

22 had asked Steve and Jane to accompany me. Wick said -

23 Wickman said that he didn't want to talk to me about

24 anything that had to do with the Ramsey case. And I

25 asked, Well, do you have any problems with me or the

Page 263

1 work I'm doing, something to that effect. And Wickman

2 said, No, I don't have a problem with you; I've never

3 had a problem with you. And then Wickman excused

4 Thomas and Harmer, and he and I talked.

5          Q. What happened after they were excused?

6          A. He asked how the debriefing went. Wickman

7 asked how things were with me. Wickman said he had no

8 idea that I was doing my caseload in addition to the

9 Ramsey case in addition to a collateral duty of

10 registering sex offenders.

11         I told him that I tried to meet with him, and

12 he said he was too busy. Wickman talked about

13 feeling frustrated with working on the Ramsey case

14 because he was named as the sergeant and supposedly in

15 charge, yet Commander Eller and Chief Koby were not

16 allowing him to do the role that he felt he was

17 assigned to do.

18        Q. How did he feel he was being hampered? How

19 did he feel he was being hampered in this regard?

20        A. I just remember him expressing his

21 frustrations. I don't remember specifically.

22        Q. Anything else discussed?

23        A. Yeah. He said he was upset with me because I

24 had gotten together with Detective Trujillo to

25 formulate questions for Patsy Ramsey for her interview.

Page 264

1 And Sergeant Wickman was out of town for a week or so

2 for - let's see, ski - I'm searching for the right

3 words, ski races he was involved in. And when he

4 came back, I said, Well, did you ever ask me about it?

5 Well, no I didn't, quoted to Wickman. But he was just

6 obsessed. I tried to get together with Trujillo at

7 least twice, but Trujillo would never get together with

8 me. And Wickman apologized for not getting together

9 with me to find out my version of what had happened.

10         And he said, There's no problem between us.

11 I know we've been under a lot of pressure, but we need

12 to work together, and if you have any problems - no,

13 he didn't say that. It was, Let’s just work together;

14 I know you're doing a good job; and forget about all

15 the other bullshit that's going on.

16        Q. Anything else you discussed?

17        A. That's what I remember.

18        Q. Did you feel stress from your job at that

19 point in time?

20        A. I felt stress from the internal politics.

21        Q. Was there anything going on in your personal

22 life that was causing you stress?

23        A. At which time, April?

24        Q. While you were a member of the Ramsey

25 investigative team?

Page 265

1 A. No.

2          Q. So any stress you felt was job-related and

3 didn't relate to any personal matters?

4          A. Correct.

5          Q. Did you ever have any personal meetings with

6 Commander Eller concerning your performance?

7          A. As I told you last time, Commander Eller

8 called me into his office and told me that he had heard

9 information from someone else, and why had I not told

10 him that.

11        Q. So these were kind of ad hoc meetings

12 relating to a specific matter, specific piece of

13 information?

14        A. They were whenever he felt the need.

15        Q. Did you ever sit down with him to just

16 discuss the general subject matter of your performance?

17        A. Yes, with Mike Pease.

18        Q. On how many occasions?

19        A. One time.

20        Q. When was that?

21        A. The end of April of '97.

22        Q. Were his concerns about your performance

23 similar to those expressed to Dr. Wilhera in his

24 July 14, '97 letter?

25        A. No. Commander Eller said he had no problem

Page 266

1 with my work, and he never did.

2          Q. What was the date of that?

3          A. I don't have the date.

4          Q. Just approximately, what month?

5          A. I said April.

6          Q. April of '97?

7          A. Mid to late April '97.

8          Q. Is that the only occasion you believe you

9 discussed with Eller your overall performance?

10        A. I don't remember my overall discussion of my

11 performance with Commander Eller.

12        Q. When he would bring you in periodically to

13 discuss a specific matter that you took as criticism,

14 did this deal more with your not providing reports, or

15 what did it deal more with on these occasions?

16        A. There wasn't - it didn't have to do with

17 providing reports. I just remember these occasions

18 where - similar to what Sergeant Wickman testified to,

19 closed-door conversations where Commander Eller would

20 criticize or vent his frustration.

21        Q. Would he do this with others in addition to

22 yourself?

23        A. According to Sergeant Wickman, it was done to

24 him.

25        Q. Do you know if it was done with others in

Page 267

1 addition to you and Sergeant Wickman?

2          A. I do not.

3          Q. In your view, when your attorney,

4 Mr. Jackson, contacted Chief Koby about making a public

5 statement in defense of you, what did you feel should

6 be the substance of that statement at that time?

7          A. A brief statement saying that the statements

8 about me were false.

9           MR. HALABY: Could you read back that answer,

10 please?

11 (The last answer was read.)

12        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) You said "a brief

13 statement", is that what you said?

14        A. Yes.

15        Q. "Brief," you mean just a simple declaratory

16 statement like that, and you didn't expect him to go

17 beyond that?

18        A. Yes.

19        Q. So at least in your mind you didn't want

20 Chief Koby to get into any specifics relating to

21 specific criticisms?

22        A. It would not have been necessary.

23        Q. So you didn't contemplate that?

24        A. I left that to Mr. Jackson.

25        Q. But I'm talking about you, what you wanted

Page 268

1 It was your reputation you were concerned with, right?

2          A. Sure was.

3          Q. So in defense of your reputation, what did

4 you want beyond a declaratory statement that these

5 allegations or criticisms were false?

6          A. That the criticisms were false, and I was a

7 very competent and skilled detective.

8          Q. Did you want anything more from Chief Koby?

9          A. No.

10        Q. Did you want him to go into specifics

11 relating to specific allegations against you?

12        A. No.

13        Q. Did you feel Mr. Jackson was carrying out

14 your directions in that regard or your feelings in that

15 regard in his approach to Chief Koby?

16        A. Did you ask me two questions in that?

17        Q. I might have, so I'll rephrase it.

18         Did you feel your attorney, Mr. Jackson, when

19 he contacted Mr. Koby, was fulfilling your desire in

20 that regard -

21        A. Yes.

22        Q. - and its limitations?

23        A. Yes.

24        Q. Why didn't you contemplate Chief Koby going

25 into specific allegations against you?

Page 269

1 A. As the authority figure for the Boulder

2 Police Department, his word, by saying that, would take

3 care of specifics.

4          Q. Any other reason why you didn't contemplate

5 his going into specifics?

6          A. No.

7          Q. Were you aware of the letter Mr. Jackson

8 wrote Mr. Koby?

9          A. I believe so.

10        Q. Did you review that letter before it was sent

11 to Mr. Koby?

12        A. I believe so.

13        Q. Now, that did contain specifics,

14 didn't it?

15        A. I'd have to look at it. If it does, I'll -

16        Q. You don't recall it?

17        A. No, I don't.

18         MR. HALABY: Excuse me just briefly here.

19 (Discussion was held off the record.)

20        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) This is the October 27,

21 '97, letter to Chief Koby from Mr. Jackson. I believe

22 it was attached to your complaint. Do you recall that?

23        A. I remember seeing it, yes.

24        Q. You note here that on page 2, he addresses

25 eight specific points?

Page 270

1 A. Yes.

2          Q. But it wasn't your contemplation that any

3 public statement Chief Koby would make on your behalf

4 in response to Mr. Jackson's request would address

5 those eight points specifically; is that correct?

6          A. Chief Koby saying that all the statements

7 that were being publicized about me were false would

8 address all the specifics, whether we knew them or

9 didn't know them.

10         MR. HALABY: Would you repeat my last

11 question?

12 (The last question was read.)

13        A. My answer remains the same.

14        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) What, you didn't expect him

15 to address it specifically?

16         MR. JONES: Objection. She answered the

17 question.

18         MR. HALABY: No, she didn't.

19         MR. JONES: She specifically answered the

20 question, Counsel.

21         MR. HALABY: No, she didn't.

22         MR. JONES: Okay. Well if you want to -

23        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Could you answer it

24 specifically?

25         MR. JONES: He is being argumentative, and

Page 271

1 you do not have to continue to answer questions that

2 you've already answered.

3           MR. HALABY: Well, if you want to direct her

4 not to answer, then let's make that record clear.

5           MR. JONES: I think I made it very clear.

6           MR. HALABY: Well, you haven't, so I'll ask

7 the question again. If you want to direct her not to

8 answer this question, go ahead.

9          Q. (BY MR. HALABY) My question is quite

10 specific. It was your contemplation, as I understand

11 it from your prior testimony, that you did not expect

12 Chief Koby to specifically address each of these points

13 in any public statements he made in response to

14 Mr. Jackson's request; is that correct?

15        A. I'm being directed not to answer that again,

16 because I already have.

17        Q. No, he didn't make any direction to you, so

18 go ahead and answer the question.

19        A. I have already answered.

20        Q. Are you refusing to answer this question?

21        A. I'm telling you I have already answered.

22        Q. I'm asking, are you going to answer that

23 question?

24        A. You have my answer.

25        Q. My question dealt specifically with this.

Page 272

1           Are you refusing to answer relating to these specific

2 points?

3          A. Mr. Halaby, you have my answer.

4           MR. HALABY: I'm going to take a break.

5 Counsel, you confer with her and I'll come back.

6 (Break was taken.)

7          Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Are you going to persist in

8 your refusal to answer the question?

9          A. I believe that I've already answered the

10 question as best as I can. Is there a way that I can

11 clarify anything for you?

12        Q. I'd be happy to, anything that will assist

13 you. My question relates to these eight points

14 contained in the letter to Chief Koby from your

15 attorney, Mr. Jackson, dated October 20, 1997. Do you

16 that's the context of my question -

17        A. Yes.

18        Q. - as it relates specifically to those eight

19 points?

20         Am I correct in understanding that you did

21 not contemplate Chief Koby to publicly address each of

22 these specific eight points, but instead to make a

23 general statement, in general terms, that criticisms of

24 you were unfounded and that you were a competent

25 officer?

Page 273

1 A. Now you asked differently and complex. Could

2 you just aks it simply.

3          Q. Well, I'll have her read it back to you

4 slowly and see if you still have a problem.

5 (Page 273, lines 20 through 25 were read.)

6          A. And I go back to my prior answer.

7          Q. (BY MR. HALABY) You can't answer that

8 question yes or no?

9          A. I believe I've already answered your

10 question.

11        Q. Well, can you answer this question yes or no?

12 I really don't care what you believe you did. I'm just

13 asking you if you can answer this question yes or no.

14        A. I refer you back to the answer that I've

15 already given you.

16        Q. Well, my question is, can you answer that

17 question yes or no?

18        A. I guess it's pretty clear from my referral

19 that I cannot.

20        Q. Why?

21        A. I've answered it.

22        Q. No, I'm asking you why you can't answer that

23 question yes or no.

24        A. I'm lost as to what you are asking me now.

25        Q. I'm asking you the difference between what

Page 274

1 you said in terms of contemplating only a general

2 statement from Chief Koby, where he would generally

3 simply state that the criticisms against you were

4 unfounded and that you were a competent detective; and

5 compare that with the specifics of this letter of your

6 attorney to Chief Koby addressing eight specific items.

7 Now, do you understand the context of the question now?

8          A. I do not.

9          Q. Well, let me see if I can help you even

10 further. Do you see a difference between generally

11 stating, in a general way, criticisms against Linda

12 Arndt are unfounded; and, on the other hand, saying

13 those specific eight items accusing Linda Arndt are

14 unfounded? You don't see any difference between those

15 two statements, Ms. Arndt?

16        A. First, yes - you asked two different

17 questions. What is your one question?

18        Q. Do you know the difference between a general

19 statement and a detailed statement?

20        A. Yes.

21        Q. All right. Would you agree a general

22 statement about you in this context would be the

23 criticism against Linda Arndt is unfounded? Would you

24 agree that's a general statement?

25        A. Yes.

Page 275

1 Q. Would you agree it's a far more specific

2 statement to say, The following criticisms of Linda

3 Arndt are unfounded?

4          A. Yes.

5          Q. - and then the specific eight items,

6 correct? All right, so now we know the difference

7 between general and specific, okay? Now, you have

8 testified that you only expected the general statement

9 from Chief Koby, is that correct, in your defense?

10        A. You asked me what I had asked for. Yes.

11        Q. Right. And that was a general statement?

12        A. Correct.

13        Q. You were not asking for the specific

14 statement relating to these specific criticisms of you;

15 is that correct?

16        A. Those eight are examples of what was out

17 there, which was not all known.

18        Q. But in your prior testimony, you said you did

19 not expect Chief Koby to address these eight items

20 specifically, but simply make a general statement that

21 all criticisms of you were unfounded, correct?

22         MR. JONES: Objection, misstates her prior

23 testimony.

24        A. You had asked what I specifically had asked

25 of Chief Koby, and what I had asked was a general

Page 276

1 statement.

2          Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Right. That's what you

3 have always contemplated was a general statement in

4 your defense; that the criticisms generally were

5 unfounded and that you're a competent detective,

6 correct?

7          A. That's what I initially contemplated, yes.

8          Q. Did you change?

9          A. Well, you said "always," so I don't like that

10 absolute word.

11        Q. Well, you then said that's what you initially

12 contemplated. Has that contemplation changed?

13        A. Well, the context is in this letter, correct?

14 Are we still having that -

15        Q. I'm just talking about -

16        A. Oh.

17        Q. - what's in your mind. Has your

18 contemplation of this general statement in your defense

19 changed to now requiring a more specific, detailed

20 statement in your defense?

21        A. I believe - I would say that given the

22 length of time that I have been miscast, and the

23 multitude of false statements and criticisms attached

24 to my name, that more than just a general statement is

25 needed.

Page 277

1 Q. So given that time reference you just gave

2 me, at what point in time did you think the

3 circumstances changed from October of 1997 to now, to

4 require a more specific and detailed defense of you?

5          A. When I was unable to get a job.

6          Q. Give us a time period.

7          A. After August of '99.

8          Q. Are you still attempting to get a job?

9          A. Yes.

10        Q. Have you ever been told - when was your most

11 recent attempt?

12        A. Right now.

13        Q. With whom?

14        A. University of Colorado.

15        Q. In what capacity?

16        A. Sexual harassment investigator.

17        Q. Have you been turned down?

18        A. It's - I haven't been interviewed yet.

19        Q. What was the last job you were turned down

20 for?

21        A. It was with Human Services, Colorado Human

22 Services.

23        Q. Are you -

24        A. And I don't remember the position.

25        Q. When was this?

Page 278

1 A. January - January or February of 2000.

2          Q. Of this year?

3          A. Yes.

4          Q. You don't remember what position you were

5 applying for?

6          A. No, I don't.

7          Q. Do you remember whether or not you were

8 turned down for this position you don't recall you were

9 applying for?

10         MR. JONES: Object to the form of the

11 question, argumentative.

12        A. What is your question?

13         MR. HALABY: Could you read my question.

14 (The last question was read.)

15         MR. JONES: Same objection.

16        A. Well, I do remember applying for the

17 position. I don't remember the title of the position.

18 And yes, I was turned down.

19        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Do you know the reason

20 given?

21        A. I believe it said I was not qualified.

22        Q. Was it your belief you were qualified, and

23 the only reason you were turned down is because of the

24 failure of the department to make this general

25 statement you wanted the department to make on your

Page 279

1 behalf about the criticism of you being unfounded and

2 that you're a competent officer?

3          A. I believe I have the qualifications

4 necessary for the job, and I believe I was turned down

5 because of the way I have been cast and allowed to be

6 cast in the media, and the failure of the department to

7 correct that image that has been put out there with my

8 name attached.

9          Q. With your experience with the media involved

10 in this Ramsey investigation, is it your sincere belief

11 that the general statement - brief general statement

12 by Chief Koby that you contemplated would have cured

13 all that?

14        A. It would have, had he done it timely.

15        Q. What is the basis for your conclusion of

16 that?

17        A. The more I was allowed to be cast in a -

18 miscast in the light that I was cast, the more the

19 impression was that that was the truth.

20        Q. You think all these tabloids, all these

21 numerous national and international media, would have

22 just said, Oh okay, Chief Koby, we'll take your word

23 on it; and all these things we've been addressing,

24 we'll no longer publish? Did you think something like

25 that was going to happen?

Page 280

1          A. I would say the continued hell I had to go

2 through would have greatly diminished.

3          Q. Could you answer my question?

4          A. I believe I did.

5          Q. No, you didn't.

6           MR. HALABY: Let's have the question read

7 back.

8 (Page 280, lines 20 through 25 were read.)

9          A. Chief Koby was the authority. He had the

10 person - he was the person who had the authority to

11 make that statement, and he's the one whose authority

12 they would have listened to, other than just mine.

13        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Was it your experience that

14 they didn't care much what Tom Koby said during this,

15 and they continued to print whatever they wanted to

16 print, broadcast whatever they wanted to broadcast?

17        A. So both questions, they didn't care about Tom

18 Koby and -

19        Q. Did you see all these tabloids that were

20 criticizing you, criticizing Tom Koby, criticizing the

21 investigation, paying any serious heed to what Chief

22 Koby was saying in his defense and his defense of the

23 department?

24        A. I don't remember Chief Koby having a defense

25 of his department.

Page 281

1          Q. You never recall Chief Koby making a

2 statement in a press conference that he believed the

3 department had not made mistakes?

4          A. I don't know.

5          Q. You don't recall ever hearing that, do you?

6          A. Correct.

7          Q. If you were a member of the department, and

8 he made a statement that he didn't believe the

9 department made mistakes, did you feel that covered

10 you?

11        A. It would partially cover me.

12        Q. I guess we've explored that area enough.

13         Now, Sergeant Wickman was a temporary

14 supervisor of yours when Sergeant Mason went to the FBI

15 Academy in the summer of 1996; is that correct?

16        A. Yes.

17        Q. Did you have any problems with Sergeant

18 Wickman's supervision of you at that time?

19        A. I don't think so.

20        Q. Did you consider yourself personal friends

21 with Sergeant Wickman at that time?

22        A. No.

23        Q. Did you consider Sergeant Wickman a person

24 you could confide in about personal matters at that

25 time?

Page 282

1          A. No.

2          Q. Did you ever confide in him certain matters

3 arising from your personal life at that time?

4          A. I don't think so.

5          Q. Including your social life?

6          A. I don't think so.

7          Q. You have no recollection of that?

8          A. Correct.

9          Q. Did you believe there were other members of

10 the Ramsey team that were not timely providing their

11 written reports?

12        A. Yes.

13        Q. Who?

14        A. Wickman, Eller, Trujillo.

15        Q. Anyone else?

16        A. I wasn't able to keep abreast of who had

17 reports in and who wasn't.

18        Q. So you can't think of anyone else?

19        A. Other than those three, no.

20        Q. In that meeting you had with Patsy Ramsey

21 when her attorney Pat Burke was present initially, did

22 he search you for a bug?

23        A. Did he what?

24        Q. Search you to determine whether or not you

25 were wearing a bug?

Page 283

1          A. No.

2          Q. Didn't lift up your sweater or anything like

3 that?

4          A. No, he didn't.

5          Q. Did he ever question you as to whether or not

6 you were bugged?

7          A. Pardon me?

8          Q. Did he ever question you about whether or not

9 were bugged or intended to record the conversation

10 in any manner?

11        A. No.

12        Q. Did you ever indicate such to any of your

13 supervisors?

14        A. Indicate what?

15        Q. That Pat Burke had been concerned about

16 whether or not you were bugged during - at the start

17 of this meeting.

18        A. No.

19        Q. Are you denying that you told Sergeant

20 Wickman that you were relieved when he told you you

21 were being transferred from the Ramsey team?

22        A. Yes, I deny that.

23        Q. Did you listen to the Peter Boyles show when

24 he attacked you?

25        A. No.

Page 284

1          Q. How did you know he did?

2          A. I had people come up to me and tell me that

3 he basically crucified me.

4          Q. Have you ever listened to the Peter Boyles

5 show?

6          A. No.

7           MR. HALABY: That's all.

8 (Discussion was held off the record.)

9           MR. HALABY: One thing, on the record, we

10 have an authorization to release medical information.

11 Let's just mark this.

12 (Deposition Exhibit 4 was marked.)

13        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) Let me show you Exhibit 4,

14 which is an authorization to release medical

15 information. Would you be willing to execute that at

16 this time?

17         MR. JONES: We've already indicated that we

18 wouldn't sign.

19        Q. (BY MR. HALABY) You'll follow your

20 attorney's direction in that regard?

21        A. Yes.

22         MR. HALABY: That's all, thanks.

23 (The deposition concluded at 12:15 p.m.)



Page 285

1           I, LINDA ARNDT, do hereby certify

2 that I have read the foregoing transcript and that the

3 same and accompanying correction sheets, if any,

4 constitute a full and complete record of my testimony.





8                                   Deponent 

9           ( ) No changes         ( ) Amendments attached                                  


11        Subscribed and sworn to before me this  

12 _________ day of _____________, 19_____. 

13         My commission expires ________________________. 



15                                 Notary Public 

16 dc

17 Arndt v. Koby 

18                                _________________________________ 








Page 286

1 State of Colorado )

2                                  ) REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 

3 County of Denver  ) 

4          I, Denise A. Conner, do hereby certify that 

5 I am a Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public  

6 within the State of Colorado; that previous to the 

7 commencement of the examination, the deponent was duly

8 sworn by me to testify to the truth. 

9          I further certify that this deposition was

10 taken in shorthand by me at the time and place herein 

11 set forth and was thereafter reduced in typewritten 

12 form, and that the foregoing constitutes a true and 

13 correct transcript. 

14       I further certify that I am not related to, 

15 employed by, nor of counsel for any of the parties or 

16 attorneys herein, nor otherwise _______ to the 

17 result of the within action. 

18        In witness whereof, I have affixed my 

19 signature this 17th day of April, 2000. 


21                                (Signature of Denise A. Conner) 


22                                PATTERSON REPORTING & VIDEO 

                                         Denise A. Conner

23                                Certified Shorthand Reporter 

24                                and Notary Public


Page 287


    Waterpark III

2 2350 South Parker Road, Suite 202 

    Aurora, Colorado 80014


    A. Bruce Jones, Esq.

4 Holland & Hart, L.L.P. 

    555 17th Street, Suite 3200

5 Denver, Colorado 80014

6 RE: Arndt v. Koby

    Civil Action No. 98-WY-1198-WD


8 The deposition in the above entitled matter is ready

    for reading and signing. Please attend to this

9 matter by complying with ALL blocks checked below. 

      amendment sheets.


    _____ arranging with us at (303) 696-7680 to read

11 and sign the deposition in our offices. 


12 __X__ having deponent read enclosed deposition, signing 

          amendment sheets if any (orig. signature page included)


    _____ reading enclosed deposition, signing attached

14 signature page and correction sheets, if any  


15 __x__ within 30 days of the date of this letter.


16 _____ by _____________________ ??? a trial date of ____________. 



    Please be sure that the signature page and

18 correction sheets, if any, are signed

    before a notary public and returned to our office at

19 the above address


    If this matter is not taken care of within said

21 period of time, the deposition will be filed unsigned

    pursuant to the Rules of Civil Procedure. Thank you.



23 cc: Theodore S. Halaby, Esq. 



Page 288


    Waterpark III

2 2350 South Parker Road, Suite 202 

    Aurora, Colorado 80014



4 Halaby, Crow & Schluter, P.C. 

    1873 South Bellaire Street, Suite 1400

5 Denver, Colorado 80222

6 RE: Linda Arndt v. Thomas Koby et al. 

7 Dear Mr. Halaby:

8 Enclosed is the deposition of: LINDA ARNDT, Vol. II 


9 _____ Previously filed. Forwarding signature page and 

      amendment sheets.


    _____ Signed, no changes.


    _____ Signed, with changes, a copy of which is enclosed.


    _____ Unsigned, notice duly given _____________________,

13 pursuant to the Rules of Civil Procedure. 


14 _____ Not signed, notice duly given ___________________, 

       since trial is set for _________________.


    _____ No signature required.


    _____ Signature waived.


    _____ To be signed in court.


    _____ Signature pages/amendments to be returned to

19 court on date of trial. 

20 _____ Mailed by US Mail/UPS. 

21 _____ Hand delivered _____________________. 


    Enclosures (As above noted)

23 cc: A. Bruce Jones, Esq. 



Page 289