Page 1



1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF GEORGIA
2 ATLANTA DIVISION

3 ROBERT CHRISTIAN WOLF,
Plaintiff,
4 Civil Action File
vs.
5 No. 00-CIV-1187(JEC)
JOHN BENNETT RAMSEY and
6 PATRICIA PAUGH RAMSEY,
Defendants.
7 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

8
VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
9
STEVEN THOMAS
10
September 21, 2001
11 9:07 a.m.

12 1100 Fourteenth Street
Denver, Colorado
13

14 Kelly A. Mackereth, CSR, RPR, CRR, and Notary Public

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25





2



1 APPEARANCES

2 For the Plaintiff:

3 DARNAY HOFFMAN, ESQ.

4 (By telephone)

5 Law Office of Darnay Hoffman

6 210 West 7th Street, Suite 209

7 New York, NY 10023

8 (212) 712-2766

9 .

10 For the Defendants:

11 JAMES C. RAWLS, ESQ.

12 Powell, Goldstein, Frazer & Murphy, L.L.P.

13 191 Peachtree Street, N.E.

14 Sixteenth Floor

15 Atlanta, GA 30303

16 (404) 572-6600

17 L. LIN WOOD, ESQ.

18 The Equitable Building

19 100 Peachtree Street

20 Suite 2140

21 Atlanta, GA 30303

22 (404) 522-1713

23 -and-

24 .

25 .





3



1 For the Deponent:

2 CHARLES P. DIAMOND, ESQ.

3 O'Melveny & Myers

4 1999 Avenue of the Stars

5 Los Angeles, CA 90067-6035

6 (310) 553-6700

7 SEAN R. SMITH, ESQ.

8 Dow, Lohnes & Albertson

9 One Ravinia Drive

10 Suite 1600

11 Atlanta GA 30346-2108

12 (770) 901-8800

13 .

14 Also present:

15 JAY R. REN, CLVS

16 TODD TOMPKINS, Videographer Intern

17 O.M. "Ollie" Gray

18 .

19 .

20 .

21 .

22 .

23 .

24 .

25 .





4



1 Deposition of Steven Thomas

2 September 21, 2001

3 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

4 9:07. We're on the record. This is the

5 deposition of Steve Thomas for the case of

6 Robert Christian Wolf versus John Bennett

7 Ramsey and Patricia Paugh Ramsey, Case Number

8 00-CIV-1187 in the U. S. District Court,

9 Atlanta Division, State of Georgia. Today is

10 September 21st, 2001.

11 We are located at 1100 Fourteenth

12 Street, Denver, Colorado. The court reporter

13 is Kelly Mackereth of Boverie, Jackson, Busby

14 and Speera. The videographer is Jay R. Ren,

15 certified legal video specialist for Ren Video

16 Services.

17 The attorneys will identify

18 themselves beginning with the attorney on the

19 left and the deponent's right.

20 MR. WOOD: My name is Lin Wood.

21 I represent John and Patsy Ramsey.

22 MR. RAWLS: I'm Jim Rawls. I'm

23 co-counsel with Lin Wood representing John and

24 Patsy Ramsey.

25 MR. GRAY: My name is Ollie Gray.





5



1 I'm an investigator in this case.

2 MR. DIAMOND: I am Chuck Diamond

3 of O'Melveny & Myers representing the witness,

4 Steve Thomas.

5 MR. SMITH: I'm Sean Smith, and I

6 also represent Steve Thomas.

7 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Also, on the

8 phone.

9 MR. WOOD: Your turn, Darnay.

10 MR. HOFFMAN: I'm Darnay Hoffman,

11 and I represent the Plaintiff, Robert

12 Christian Wolf.

13 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The reporter

14 will now swear in the witness.

15 MR. WOOD: You ready for us?

16 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Yes, we're

17 ready to swear in the witness.

18 MR. WOOD: Would you swear the

19 witness, please.

20 STEVEN THOMAS, having been first

21 duly sworn, was examined and testified as

22 follows:

23 EXAMINATION

24 BY-MR.WOOD:

25 Q. This will be the deposition of





6



1 Steve Thomas. The deposition is taken

2 pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil

3 Procedure and the Federal Rules of Evidence.

4 The deposition is taken pursuant

5 to subpoena duly served and notice duly filed

6 and also pursuant to the order and rulings of

7 Judge Jewell Carnes in denying Mr. Thomas'

8 motion to quash the subpoena. And I would

9 also note for the record that within the

10 ruling of Judge Carnes' counsel for

11 Mr. Thomas and for the parties have agreed as

12 to the date and the location of the

13 deposition.

14 I understand that Mr. Thomas will

15 read and sign the deposition. We would agree

16 that can be undertaken before an authorized

17 notary public. Everybody set?

18 MR. DIAMOND: Go ahead.

19 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) All right.

20 Mr. Thomas, you've been sworn. Let me ask

21 you for the record, please, to state your

22 full name.

23 A. My full name is William Steven

24 Walton Thomas.

25 Q. You go by Steve?





7



1 A. I do.

2 Q. Do you have any preference? I'll

3 probably call you Mr. Thomas but if you would

4 rather I call you Steve or something you just

5 let me know?

6 A. Steve, Mr. Thomas.

7 Q. All right. I may bounce back and

8 forth. What is your --

9 MR. DIAMOND: Let's stay on a

10 last-name basis. It is a sworn testimony.

11 MR. WOOD: Yeah.

12 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Well, let me ask

13 you this if you would, Mr. Thomas, would you

14 give me your present residence address?

15 A.

16

17 MR. DIAMOND:



19 A.

20

21 MR. DIAMOND: That's what I think

22 he wanted.

23 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Do you have any

24 present plans to move from that residence?

25 A. Ultimately I will leave Colorado





8



1 but, no, for the moment, that's where I'm

2 residing.

3 Q. Do you have any plans even though

4 they may be tentative in terms of when you

5 would hope to leave Colorado?

6 A. Certainly not before this matter

7 is resolved.

8 Q. This matter being the Chris Wolf

9 case or this matter being the lawsuit filed

10 by John and Patsy Ramsey against you?

11 A. Both.

12 Q. Okay. So we would be safe to say

13 you're here in Colorado at least through the

14 duration of those two matters; is that true?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q.

17 A.

18 Q.

19 A.

20 Q.

21 A.

22

23 Q.

24 A.

25 Q.





9



1

2 A.

3 Q.

4 A.

5 Q.

6 A.

7 Q.

8 MR. DIAMOND:

9

10 MR. WOOD:

11

12 MR. DIAMOND:

13

14

15

16 MR. WOOD:

17

18 take it. If you have an instruction to the

19 witness to make, make it and we'll move onto

20 the next question.

21 MR. DIAMOND: We'll designate that

22 confidential. We can talk about that at the

23 conclusion of the deposition.

24 MR. WOOD: Sure. We're going to

25 have at some point a protective order to





10



1 present you with that you all will have the

2 opportunity to sign onto.

3 MR. DIAMOND: Yeah, I've seen

4 that.

5 MR. WOOD: Yeah, and that would

6 protect that information if he wants to give

7 it to me. If you all want to then designate

8 it within the time period allowed by law so

9 subject to that designation I assume you will

10 let him answer.

11 MR. DIAMOND: I will.

12 Q. (BY MR. WOOD)

13

14

15 A.

16 Q.

17 A.

18 Q.

19 A.

20 Q.

21 A.

22 Q.

23 A.

24 Q.

25 A.





11



1 Q.

2

3

4 A.

5 Q.

6

7 A.

8 Q.

9

10 A.

11 Q.

12 A.

13

14

15 MR. DIAMOND: Do you know? If

16 you don't know, you don't know.

17 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) That's something

18 you could get copies of down the road if we

19 need it I'm sure, true?

20 A. I'm sure we have those somewhere.

21 Q. Okay. Do you have any other --

22 do you engage in any other present activities

23 for compensation in terms of trying to earn

24 money, other than your business as a

25 carpenter?





12



1 A. Occasionally I'm asked to speak.

2 Q. Speak in what capacity?

3 A. Occasionally I'm asked to speak to

4 different groups, law enforcement primarily.

5 Q. Do you solicit invitations to

6 speak from organizations?

7 A. Recently we have in conjunction

8 with some defense fund raising.

9 Q. When you say "we have" who is we?

10 A. People who are helping me with

11 that legal defense fund raising.

12 Q. Who is "we" then, please, by name?

13 A. Sherill Whisenand.

14 Q. Anyone else?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And what is Sherill Wisinhunt?

17 MR. DIAMOND: Whisenand.

18 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Whisenand. When

19 did you first meet her?

20 A. I probably first spoke with her in

21 1999.

22 Q. And who is she employed with?

23 A. Currently I believe she's

24 self-employed.

25 Q. What is the name of her company,





13



1 do you know?

2 A. I also think she -- I do think

3 she also has other employment but the name of

4 her company is Wise Connections.

5 Q. Is she a public relations person?

6 A. I don't know how she bills

7 herself.

8 Q. What do you see her as?

9 A. A friend.

10 Q. You don't know what her business

11 is?

12 A. I know she works with Dr. Laura

13 as a producer with that radio show.

14 Q. You don't know what type of

15 business she does in connection with her work

16 Wise Connections?

17 A. Yes, she helps me with speaking.

18 Q. Did she form that company Wise

19 Connections just to help you?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Do you know whether it existed

22 before she met you?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. How did you come to meet her?

25 A. Through a mutual friend.





14



1 Q. Who is that?

2 A. Anthony Robbins.

3 Q. Tony Robbins, the fellow we see on

4 TV?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And when did you -- I'm sorry.

7 You first spoke with her, is that when you

8 met her in 1999?

9 A. No, I did not meet her in person

10 until some point after that. I spoke with

11 her for a period of time on the telephone.

12 Q. And I assume that that was in

13 connection with, what, raising funds did you

14 tell me?

15 A. At what point are you talking

16 about --

17 Q. When you met --

18 A. -- when I first met her?

19 Q. Yeah.

20 A. No, I wasn't raising funds in

21 1999. When I first met her was simply we

22 struck up a friendship when I was calling

23 Tony Robbins' office.

24 Q. When did you get into, in effect,

25 a business relationship with her, when did





15



1 that start?

2 A. I think at some point I tired of

3 taking media calls and the calls for speaking

4 and she volunteered to take those for me.

5 Q. When did that happen?

6 A. Probably late '99, 2000, sometime

7 during the calendar year of 2000.

8 Q. Or late the calendar year of 1999?

9 A. Possibly. I don't recall.

10 Q. Well, your answer was when I said

11 when did that happen you said probably late

12 '99, 2000, sometime during the calendar year

13 2000; is that correct?

14 A. I'm trying to give you a sense

15 for when that occurred.

16 MR. DIAMOND: What's your best

17 recollection? I'm sorry, I lost the thread.

18 The time period --

19 MR. WOOD: I'm trying to find out

20 -- yeah, hold on one second, I'll tell you

21 exactly. I asked him the date of when he

22 entered into, in effect, a business

23 relationship with her, the date.

24 A. I think it would have been the

25 calendar year sometime during 2000 because





16



1 that's when the calls and the requests came.

2 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Let me see if this

3 will help you. Was it prior to the

4 publication of your book?

5 A. I don't recall, but as I mentioned

6 I think when I had her take over these calls

7 and requests was after the flurry, after the

8 book was released.

9 Q. Does that lead you to believe that

10 in probability you did not engage in a

11 business relationship with Sherill Whisenand

12 until after the April 2000 publication of

13 your book "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder

14 Investigation"?

15 A. Well, there's not a bright line in

16 my head because I still consider her a friend

17 and when that transitioned at some point to

18 some business work the friendship certainly

19 didn't cease and that doesn't stand out in my

20 head.

21 Q. Did you have any flurry of phone

22 calls from the media prior to the publication

23 of your book?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you handle all of those or do





17



1 you recall Sherill Whisenand handling some of

2 them?

3 A. She may have handled some of

4 those.

5 Q. So that tells me it may be that

6 you were involved in a business relationship

7 with her prior to the publication of your

8 book possibly?

9 A. Well, when you say business

10 relationship --

11 Q. When she's handling media calls

12 for you?

13 A. The fact that she took calls for

14 me she certainly did that as a friend as

15 well because she volunteered to do that.

16 (Exhibit-1 was marked.)

17 MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, I expect

18 you're going to tie this into a line of

19 questioning that has to do with the work that

20 he did as a police investigator in connection

21 with the Ramsey case?

22 MR. WOOD: Stay tuned. I'm going

23 to let you look at it and I'm going to ask

24 him questions about it.

25 MR. DIAMOND: Well, I'm going to





18



1 limit you to that because that's what this

2 deposition is about.

3 MR. WOOD: If you have an

4 instruction under the Federal Rules of Civil

5 Procedure to make, Mr. Diamond, feel free to

6 make it. I've asked you to take a look at

7 this exhibit. I'm going to ask Mr. Thomas

8 to take a look at it. It's been marked for

9 purposes of identification as Exhibit 1.

10 MR. DIAMOND: Go ahead.

11 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You're familiar

12 with the website set up with respect to your

13 lecture for hire, true?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And this is, I take it you would

16 agree, a true and correct copy of that

17 website page?

18 A. That's not from my website, that's

19 from another website, but I'm familiar with

20 that page, yes.

21 Q. Okay. And this obviously

22 advertises your willingness to lecture on the

23 JonBenet Ramsey case for compensation, true?

24 MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, the only

25 reason I can see you asking these questions





19



1 is concerning the jurisdictional debate that

2 we currently have pending --

3 MR. WOOD: I'm asking what he

4 does for a living.

5 MR. DIAMOND: You can ask him

6 what he does for a living. He's told you

7 what he does for a living. He's a carpenter

8 and he does public speaking --

9 MR. WOOD: I'm asking him about

10 that solicitation.

11 MR. DIAMOND: I'm not going to

12 let you inquire about that.

13 MR. WOOD: If you have,

14 Mr. Diamond, if you have a -- we're not here

15 to argue with each other and I don't --

16 MR. DIAMOND: Well --

17 THE REPORTER: One at a time.

18 MR. WOOD: Let me finish, then

19 you'll have time.

20 MR. DIAMOND: Certainly.

21 MR. WOOD: I simply asked him

22 about this for purposes of establishing what

23 he does for a living in whole or in part.

24 If you have an instruction to make under the

25 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, just make





20



1 it. I don't need to debate it.

2 MR. DIAMOND: I will.

3 MR. WOOD: If you instruct him

4 not to answer the question, state the

5 privilege, as I understand that's what you're

6 limited to. State the privilege and make

7 your instruction and we can address it at a

8 later time.

9 MR. DIAMOND: I'm fully prepared

10 to do that.

11 MR. WOOD: All right.

12 MR. DIAMOND: And I intend to do

13 that. I want to give you an opportunity to

14 tell me how this relates to the subject

15 matter of the deposition --

16 MR. WOOD: I did.

17 MR. DIAMOND: -- within the

18 framework that Judge Carnes said you were

19 allowed to inquire. And, you know, if you're

20 prepared to tender a good cause showing, I'm

21 happy to let him answer. Obviously, on its

22 face this is going nowhere but to the

23 jurisdictional dispute that my client and your

24 client are currently engaged in unless there

25 is some other reason. He's already told you





21



1 what he does for a living.

2 I'll have the pending question

3 read, and then I'll decide whether to

4 instruct him or not.

5 MR. WOOD: I don't think there is

6 a pending question. I think he told me that

7 it was a -- he was familiar with this

8 website and has his own website.

9 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) What is your

10 website address?

11 A. It's not necessarily my website.

12 It's a website that was created by a

13 supporter of mine, and the address is

14 www.forstevethomas.com.

15 MR. DIAMOND: He wanted to know

16 your website. Do you have a website?

17 THE DEPONENT: I thought that was

18 the one he was talking about.

19 MR. DIAMOND: No. Do you have a

20 website?

21 THE DEPONENT: No.

22 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) So did you

23 misspeak a minute ago when you said something

24 about your website because you said that's

25 not from my website, that's from another





22



1 website but I'm familiar with that page. Did

2 you misspeak when you said the words "my

3 website"?

4 A. There is a website owned by a

5 third party who is a supporter of mine.

6 Q. Who is that?

7 A. A woman I know as B.J.

8 Q. You don't know her full name?

9 A. Barbara, I don't know her last

10 name.

11 Q. Do you know where she lives?

12 A. Ohio.

13 Q. Where in Ohio?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. So other than the

16 lecture-for-profit business and the carpentry

17 business, do you have any other employment at

18 the present time?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you authorize Plaintiff's

21 Exhibit Number 1 to be posted to solicit

22 speaking engagements?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Have you ever been deposed before?

25 A. In a civil proceeding?





23



1 Q. Let's start there, in a civil

2 proceeding?

3 A. No. No.

4 Q. That makes me believe that you

5 have been deposed in a criminal proceeding;

6 is that true?

7 A. Well, certainly I'm not familiar

8 with the civil aspect of this as much as I

9 am the criminal half of things. I have

10 given testimony certainly in criminal cases,

11 but I have never been deposed in a setting

12 like this.

13 Q. The testimony you have given in

14 criminal cases has been, I assume, either in

15 hearings or trials in a courtroom?

16 A. In front of grand jurors, yeah.

17 Q. Right. You've never sat in a

18 deposition where no judge is present, no

19 grand jury is present, just the lawyers where

20 we take what is called a deposition; is that

21 your testimony?

22 A. I was present in a deposition

23 many, many years ago in the 1980s in a

24 police case but I don't recall that I ever

25 had to give testimony.





24



1 Q. Was that some sort of a civil

2 lawsuit?

3 A. Exactly.

4 Q. Were you a defendant in that

5 matter?

6 A. The city and myself and other

7 officers, yes.

8 Q. And where was that?

9 A. The City of Wheat Ridge, Colorado.

10 Q. Were you sued for a violation of

11 civil rights?

12 A. No, I don't think that was the

13 basis of the suit.

14 Q. What was the basis?

15 A. We stopped a car we believed to

16 be stolen. It turned out not to be and the

17 people felt wronged by that.

18 Q. So you were sued as a defendant

19 along with others and the City of Wheat

20 Ridge, Colorado?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Do you know how that case was

23 resolved?

24 A. I think it settled.

25 Q. Moneys paid to the plaintiff?





25



1 A. That's my understanding.

2 Q. On your behalf as well as the

3 city's behalf?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. But that was -- was that filed in

6 the Wheat Ridge or the county of Wheat Ridge?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. But in Colorado?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were you deposed?

11 A. That's what I just said, no. I

12 don't -- I don't know that I had to give any

13 testimony in that.

14 Q. I thought you said you were

15 present for deposition; I may have

16 misunderstood. I don't know if you were

17 there watching someone in attendance or

18 whether you were actually deposed and you're

19 not sure of which; is that right?

20 A. I recall being in a setting

21 similar to this where the other parties were

22 on the other side of the table and there was

23 some Q and A, but I think it was the other

24 side.

25 Q. Other than that lawsuit, have you





26



1 ever been sued in any other matters?

2 Obviously we know about the John and Patsy

3 Ramsey lawsuit against you. Other than those

4 two cases, have you ever been sued in a

5 civil case?

6 A. I don't recall any other, no,

7 civil suit in my capacity as a police officer

8 or as a citizen.

9 Q.

10

11 A.

12 Q.

13

14 A.

15 Q.

16 A.

17 Q.

18

19 MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, what is

20 that relevant to?

21 MR. WOOD: Well, it may very well

22 be relevant to jury --

23 MR. DIAMOND: I'm sorry.

24 MR. WOOD: It may very well be

25 relevant to jury issues.





27



1 MR. DIAMOND: I'm sorry, to jury

2 issues?

3 MR. WOOD: Yes, sir. When you

4 select a jury, I may want to know his former

5 wife's residence or name or employment in the

6 jury selection process. Now, let me say this

7 to you, Mr. Diamond, I'm not going to debate

8 relevance. My question is simple. If you

9 have an instruction to make to the witness,

10 make it. But we can't waste time going back

11 and forth discussing relevance.

12 I ask that question of every

13 witness in a deposition. It's done for jury

14 purposes. It's a legitimate question. May

15 we please get an answer and move on?

16 MR. DIAMOND: You may answer

17 whether or not she lives in the State of

18 Georgia.

19 A.

20

21 Q. (BY MR. WOOD)

22

23

24 A.

25 Q.





28



1

2 A.

3

4

5 Q.

6

7 A.

8

9 Q.

10

11

12

13 A.

14 Q. Tell me if you would, Mr. Thomas,

15 about what your deposition preparation was in

16 this case. What did you do to prepare for

17 the deposition?

18 A. I met with my attorneys and they

19 explained to me how --

20 MR. DIAMOND: You don't need to

21 get into the context.

22 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Yeah, I don't want

23 to know what, unless your attorneys want me

24 to know, I suspect they don't. I don't need

25 to know what you and your attorneys





29



1 discussed. I would like to know the fact of

2 the meeting, when it took place and how long

3 it lasted.

4 A. I met on Wednesday, September

5 19th, with Mr. Sean Smith for several hours

6 and then yesterday, September 20th of 2001, I

7 met again several hours with Mr. Smith and

8 with Chuck Diamond.

9 Q. Tell me how many hours, your best

10 estimate as to how many hours several hours

11 is on the 19th, let's start there, with

12 Mr. Smith.

13 A. A full day. We took a long

14 lunch, but I think we began our day at 9:30

15 a.m. and ended around 5 p.m.

16 Q. And then yesterday, how long?

17 A. Similar.

18 Q. 9:30 to 5 with a lunch break?

19 A. Yeah, we may have gone past 5

20 o'clock last evening, maybe 6 or 7 p.m.

21 Q. And was Mr. Diamond here yesterday

22 during the day?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At the beginning of your meeting

25 at 9 a.m. or 9:30 a.m.?





30



1 A. I certainly believe so.

2 Q. I only asked because I was under

3 the impression he was not available to be

4 here yesterday but that's all right, that's

5 not an issue for you to worry about.

6 Did you review any written

7 materials in preparation for your deposition?

8 A. I reviewed my book.

9 Q. That book being, identified earlier

10 "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder

11 Investigation." You have a copy of the hard

12 back with you I see?

13 A. It's a hard back I looked at,

14 yes.

15 Q. Okay. Did you review any other

16 written materials?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you have notes that you

19 utilized in writing your book?

20 A. No, let me interrupt you. I did

21 stuck in -- stuck in this book was a

22 two-page report from the Chris Wolf matter

23 that I did review.

24 Q. Do you have a copy of that?

25 A. No.





31



1 Q. Is that something we could see?

2 MR. DIAMOND: What's that?

3 MR. WOOD: The two-page report on

4 the Chris Wolf matter that he reviewed in

5 preparation, is that something we could take

6 a look at?

7 MR. DIAMOND: We don't have it,

8 it's not with him today.

9 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Was this something

10 prepared by your attorneys?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Who was it prepared by?

13 A. This was, I found stuck in a book

14 this summer a two-page report that I had

15 written as a police detective on the Jackie

16 Dilson, Chris Wolf matter.

17 Q. And you have that where presently

18 located?

19 A. That's probably in a folder

20 sitting at home.

21 Q. And you will maintain possession

22 of that at my request in the event we decide

23 we would like to ask for that formally,

24 subject to your attorney's agreement that we

25 would be entitled to it down the road?





32



1 A. Certainly.

2 MR. DIAMOND: Happy to hold on to

3 it.

4 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I assume that what

5 you're telling me, Mr. Thomas, is you've got

6 two pages of notes that you've made yourself

7 on Chris Wolf relating to the investigation

8 of Chris Wolf?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Tell me what exactly, maybe I

11 didn't understand you, what those two pages

12 are.

13 A. It's not notes. It's a two-page

14 typewritten report that I had prepared.

15 Q. For the Boulder Police Department?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you remember the date of that

18 report?

19 A. January 1998.

20 Q. January of '98?

21 A. I'm sorry, January of 1997.

22 Q. Okay. Did you prepare any other

23 written reports for the Boulder Police

24 Department about Chris Wolf, other than the

25 two-page report you've referred to that is





33



1 dated January of 1997?

2 A. Certainly.

3 Q. Have you had an opportunity to

4 review them in preparation for your

5 deposition?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you -- did you have notes from

8 which you relied on in whole or in part in

9 writing your book "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey

10 Murder Investigation"?

11 MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, I'm going

12 to instruct him not to answer.

13 MR. WOOD: On what privilege?

14 MR. DIAMOND: Not on privilege,

15 the limitation that was imposed by Judge

16 Carnes or the condition in which he allowed

17 this deposition to go forward.

18 MR. WOOD: Excuse me, I don't

19 know --

20 MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, you let me

21 finish and I'll let you finish.

22 MR. WOOD: I apologize for

23 interrupting, but let me say this to you --

24 MR. DIAMOND: Well, then don't

25 interrupt me. I will finish what I'm saying.





34



1 MR. WOOD: Mr. Diamond --

2 MR. DIAMOND: Maybe --

3 THE REPORTER: Please, one at a

4 time.

5 MR. WOOD: Excuse me. We're

6 going to take a break off the record. I'm

7 not going to let you yell at me. Calm down.

8 We'll come back and we'll start again in five

9 minutes. We'll go off the record and not

10 waste deposition time.

11 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is now

12 9:34. We're going off the record.

13 (Recess taken from 9:35 a.m. to

14 9:45 a.m.)

15 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

16 9:45. We're back on the record.

17 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I'm going to try

18 to make sure I can avoid any problems that

19 Mr. Diamond might have with my question. Let

20 me go back and withdraw the last question and

21 restate it. What I would like to know,

22 Mr. Thomas, is do you have notes pertaining

23 to your involvement in or the investigation

24 of the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

25 A. The Boulder Police Department has





35



1 those notes. I don't know that I have any

2 notes.

3 Q. You left the Department by

4 resignation of August the 6th, right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. 1998?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When did you turn over all of

9 your notes to the Boulder Police Department?

10 A. Shortly thereafter.

11 Q. Who did you turn them over to?

12 A. I returned my briefcases and those

13 contents, along with all my police equipment,

14 which was inventoried, to Commander Dave Hayes

15 and Sergeant Michael Ready.

16 Q. Did you turn over your case

17 notebooks?

18 A. Everything.

19 Q. How many case notebooks did you

20 turn over?

21 A. What do you mean by case

22 notebooks?

23 Q. Don't you know what the case

24 notebook was used in this case, sir, filled

25 out by all of the detectives on a daily





36



1 basis?

2 MR. DIAMOND: He may ask you for

3 an explanation, what you're referring to.

4 You're not going to help him out?

5 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Do you know, sir,

6 what the case notebooks were in this case in

7 terms of the notebooks prepared by the

8 detectives, I believe on a daily basis?

9 A. A case notebook that was

10 prepared --

11 Q. Did you have --

12 A. -- on a daily basis?

13 Q. Yes. Did you have a notebook

14 that you kept, maintained with respect to

15 your investigation?

16 A. I had folders and my working

17 papers which I maintained with respect to my

18 parts of the investigation.

19 MR. DIAMOND: He's asking about a

20 notebook.

21 THE DEPONENT: Yeah, I know.

22 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You didn't have

23 them in any notebook form?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Now, those working papers, all of





37



1 that was turned back into the Boulder Police

2 Department shortly after you resigned in

3 August of 1998?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You maintained no notebooks; is

6 that right?

7 A. I maintained copies of those.

8 Q. So you have copies of your

9 reports?

10 A. No, I didn't say that. I don't

11 know that I have those copies anymore.

12 Q. Well, you said you maintained

13 copies. Copies of what?

14 A. I maintained copies of what was in

15 my working file briefcase which I returned to

16 the Boulder Police Department.

17 Q. How many pages of documents are we

18 talking about?

19 A. A couple hundred maybe.

20 Q. Do you have those presently in

21 your possession, custody or control?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What did you do with them?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. They just mysteriously disappeared?





38



1 A. No, I have moved twice in the

2 interim. We have some things in storage.

3 We, my wife moved overseas. If I still had

4 a cardboard box full of those documents or

5 materials. I'm unaware of their present

6 location.

7 Q. When do you last recall looking at

8 them or reviewing them?

9 (Discussion off the record between

10 the deponent and Mr. Diamond.)

11 A. I last looked at those in --

12 MR. DIAMOND: He has mentioned the

13 first full report that he --

14 MR. WOOD: Yeah, well, let him

15 answer that.

16 MR. DIAMOND: Are you excluding

17 that?

18 MR. WOOD: No, I'm not excluding

19 anything. I want to learn everything.

20 A. Early 2000.

21 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) How early 2000?

22 A. Probably February or March.

23 Q. That was the last time you saw

24 them?

25 A. Right.





39



1 Q. And when did you move?

2 A. I moved -- I sold my house this

3 summer, summer of 2001.

4 Q. And did you pack up your

5 possessions?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So you don't have any explanation

8 to offer as to what happened to your JonBenet

9 Ramsey working papers since you last claimed

10 to have seen them sometime in February or

11 March of 19' -- of 2000?

12 A. Yeah, after I last looked at them,

13 this was a cardboard box full of these

14 documents. And to your question, yeah, I

15 don't know where they are currently.

16 Q. You did not destroy them

17 intentionally, did you?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You didn't intentionally lose them,

20 did you?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You didn't think they were

23 valuable to keep?

24 A. No, not necessarily.

25 Q. When did you -- in terms of that,





40



1 you did know at some point that the Ramseys

2 indicated they were going to file a lawsuit

3 against you if you published a book, didn't

4 you?

5 A. Repeat the question, please.

6 Q. You knew early on when your book

7 was published that the Ramseys had stated

8 that they were going to file a lawsuit

9 against you?

10 A. I had heard through the media that

11 they had made those threats.

12 Q. You didn't think it might be wise

13 to keep up with your notes to have those in

14 the event there was a lawsuit?

15 A. Those are all available in the

16 Boulder Police Department.

17 Q. So everything that you had, the

18 200 pages is available from the Boulder

19 Police Department; is that right?

20 A. Yes, as I said, I turned

21 everything back to the Boulder Police

22 Department.

23 Q. In fact, there's quotes in your

24 book, for example, of interview testimony from

25 different individuals. For example, there are





41



1 quotes alleged to have been made by Burke

2 Ramsey in June of 1998, by John Ramsey in

3 June of 1998, by Patsy Ramsey in June of

4 1998, by John Ramsey in April of 1997, by

5 Patsy Ramsey in April of 1997 during police

6 or district attorney interviews.

7 MR. DIAMOND: You'll represent

8 that is the case?

9 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Yeah, well, that

10 is the case, isn't it; you know that to be

11 true, don't you?

12 A. That the book contained --

13 Q. Quotes from the interviews of

14 April 1997 and June of 1998 of John and

15 Patsy Ramsey and from Burke of June of 1998?

16 A. Yeah, I would agree with that.

17 Q. I'm just trying to find out, for

18 example, your notes, would they -- would the

19 notes have those quotes in them?

20 A. What notes are you referring to?

21 Q. The notes that you can't find now.

22 How would you have quotes --

23 MR. DIAMOND: I'm going to object.

24 MR. WOOD: Let me.

25 MR. DIAMOND: He didn't say he





42



1 couldn't find them. He said he doesn't know

2 where they are. You haven't asked him

3 whether he's been looking for them recently,

4 have you?

5 MR. WOOD: Well, I mean, I will

6 ask him that in a minute. Again, Chuck,

7 we'll move quicker if you limit yourself to

8 instructions on privilege.

9 MR. DIAMOND: Mischaracterizes his

10 testimony in your --

11 MR. WOOD: That's not an objection

12 on privilege, nonetheless.

13 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, I'm

14 trying to figure out whether you had notes

15 that would have had these precise quotes in

16 them and that's how you were able to use

17 them to come up with the quotes in your

18 book. Or did you come up with those quotes

19 from their various interviews from your mind's

20 eye, your own recollection only? Do you

21 follow me?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Which was the case?

24 A. They were either in notes which I

25 had or in documents I subsequently received.





43



1 Q. And what documents did you

2 subsequently receive about the investigation?

3 A. After I left the police

4 department, over a period of time I received

5 through the mail various documents concerning

6 the investigation.

7 Q. From whom?

8 A. Anonymously through the mail.

9 Q. Postmarked from where?

10 A. Boulder or Denver.

11 Q. And were these documents police

12 files or reports on the JonBenet Ramsey

13 investigation?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were they documents from the

16 district attorney's office on the JonBenet

17 Ramsey investigation?

18 A. What do you mean from the district

19 attorney's office?

20 Q. Well, for example, a report

21 prepared by Michael Kane, as opposed to a

22 report prepared by Mark Beckner. One works

23 for the Boulder PD and one works for the

24 district attorney or did. You know the

25 difference.





44



1 A. No, these were Boulder Police

2 Department documents.

3 Q. And how many pages of documents

4 did you receive subsequent to the time that

5 you left the Boulder Police Department that

6 concerned the JonBenet Ramsey murder

7 investigation?

8 A. Several hundred.

9 Q. Where are those documents?

10 A. Unknown. They would be in the

11 same box if I still have it.

12 Q. So how many -- let me see if I've

13 got all the sources of written materials that

14 you had after you left the Boulder Police

15 Department on August the 6th, 1998. You had

16 some couple hundred pages of your work papers

17 that you had copied, correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. You didn't make copies of police

20 reports?

21 A. In what context are you talking

22 about?

23 Q. In this 200 some odd pages of

24 your working papers, were there also copies

25 of police files, police reports on the





45



1 JonBenet Ramsey investigation?

2 A. Yes, these were my working papers,

3 yes.

4 Q. Well, for example, would it only

5 be reports prepared by you or did you have

6 copies of reports prepared by other officers?

7 A. As I was the affiant on the

8 master affidavit in this case I certainly was

9 in possession of reports from others to

10 include in any search or arrest warrant in

11 this case.

12 Q. So the answer is yes?

13 A. To what question?

14 Q. The one I asked you. Did you

15 have copies of other officers' reports on the

16 JonBenet Ramsey case in your working papers?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You make reference to being the

19 affiant on the master affidavit. Did your

20 working papers then include copies of all of

21 the documents that you had and had in any

22 way relied on in preparing the master

23 affidavit in the JonBenet Ramsey case?

24 A. If I understand you correctly, no.

25 Q. Were you authorized to keep those





46



1 copies by the Boulder Police Department?

2 A. When I resigned abruptly, I

3 returned all those papers to the Boulder

4 Police Department and there was no further

5 communication between us.

6 Q. But did you tell them you had

7 kept copies of the papers?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Am I correct that everything you

10 had in your physical possession in terms of

11 case files, case reports, notes, at the time

12 that you resigned, whatever you turned over

13 to the Boulder Police Department at the time

14 of your resignation, you made copies of and

15 kept yourself; is that right?

16 A. I believe so.

17 Q. And that was only a couple hundred

18 pages?

19 A. I believe so, yes.

20 Q. And did you keep, for example, a

21 transcript of the April 30, 1997 interview

22 that you conducted with Patsy Ramsey?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. So subsequent to leaving, from

25 what period of time until what period of time





47



1 were you receiving anonymous police file

2 information on the JonBenet Ramsey case that

3 you say totaled several hundred pages? When

4 did it start and when did you last get

5 something?

6 A. Initially after I had made my

7 intentions known that I was going to tell my

8 story through a book. And that was probably

9 early, maybe January of 1999 and throughout

10 that calendar year of 1999.

11 Q. Any materials in the year 2000?

12 A. Not that I recall.

13 Q. Did you make any efforts to

14 solicit information from any member of the

15 Boulder Police Department about the

16 investigation after you left?

17 MR. DIAMOND: May I ask a

18 clarifying question? Solicit written

19 materials or just talking to somebody?

20 MR. WOOD: Information, case

21 information about the case.

22 A. Can you repeat the question

23 please?

24 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Sure, did you make

25 any efforts to solicit information about the





48



1 JonBenet murder investigation from any member

2 of the Boulder Police Department after you

3 left the department in August of 1998?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you have any idea who sent you

6 any of these alleged anonymous documents?

7 A. These are smart people. No.

8 Q. How do you know they were accurate

9 if you don't know who sent them to you?

10 A. Because I had previously seen all

11 of them.

12 Q. So this was information that was

13 contained in the case file that you didn't

14 copy when you left the force, but it predated

15 your leaving the force; is that true?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you ever receive any

18 information about grand jury testimony or

19 evidence in the case?

20 A. Never.

21 Q. Did you ever receive any

22 information about the investigation in terms

23 of efforts and information subsequent to the

24 investigation August 1998? Let me withdraw

25 that and make it a little bit cleaner.





49



1 I want to know, you tell me the

2 information you got predated your resignation

3 date. Did you ever get any new information,

4 that is to say information that was generated

5 about the case after August of 1998?

6 A. Without reviewing this box, I

7 would have to say as we sit here now that it

8 was all pre-August '98. I don't recall

9 sitting here that any of it was post-August

10 '98.

11 Q. So that the documents that you

12 have and the information that you had about

13 the case, your best recollection is that

14 would have been limited to information

15 generated prior to August of 1998, true?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, I see no

18 relevance to this line other than to find out

19 what he knew at the time he wrote the book.

20 I instruct him not to answer. If you want

21 to take this up with the judge, I am happy

22 to do so. If you want to make a record as

23 to why this is relevant to the Wolf case,

24 I'm happy to listen to you. Otherwise, he's

25 instructed not to answer. Move on.





50



1 MR. WOOD: Is there a privilege

2 being asserted?

3 MR. DIAMOND: You heard me, move

4 on.

5 MR. WOOD: Sir, if you will be

6 polite, we will be polite, also.

7 MR. DIAMOND: Go ahead. I am

8 happy to be polite.

9 MR. WOOD: Yes, sir, please do.

10 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) My question is,

11 I'm trying to find out about your knowledge

12 concerning the JonBenet Ramsey investigation.

13 And it seems from what I am hearing that

14 your knowledge is limited to information about

15 the case from the date of the murder in 1996

16 through August of 1998. Is that right?

17 MR. DIAMOND: From police sources

18 is what you have asked him about?

19 MR. WOOD: My question is on the

20 table, now, sir. We can call Judge Carnes

21 and correct the problem that we're

22 experiencing with you if we need to. I hope

23 we don't need to.

24 MR. DIAMOND: We may well have

25 to.





51



1 MR. WOOD: We certainly may have

2 to if you keep interrupting inappropriately

3 under the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure,

4 procedure for depositions.

5 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Could you answer

6 my question, please, Mr. Thomas?

7 A. Could you repeat it for me,

8 please?

9 Q. Sure. I'm going to read it right

10 back to you. I'm trying to find out about

11 your knowledge concerning the JonBenet Ramsey

12 investigation. And it seems from what I'm

13 hearing that your knowledge is limited to

14 information about the case from the date of

15 the murder in 1996 through August of 1998; is

16 that right?

17 A. No, after August of 1998, I

18 certainly followed media accounts and what was

19 released publicly and followed the case with

20 some interest.

21 Q. Fair enough. Let me add that in.

22 Can I then say in terms of drawing a circle

23 around your knowledge of the JonBenet Ramsey

24 murder investigation, that your knowledge

25 consists of knowledge about the police





52



1 information and to some extent district

2 attorney information from the date of the

3 murder until the time you left in August of

4 1998 and subsequent to 1998 has been

5 supplemented by what you have learned either

6 through media accounts or through official

7 statements from the Boulder Police Department

8 or the district attorney's office; is that

9 right?

10 A. Very confusing question. Can you

11 break that up for me? I don't understand

12 what you --

13 Q. I just want to find out what

14 you've got. You've got your personal

15 knowledge. You've got the police file

16 information that you described for me, the

17 copies of the documents you copied, the

18 documents that have been sent to you

19 subsequent. And that all dealt, you believe,

20 pre-August 1998, right?

21 A. I'm not following you, Mr. Wood.

22 Q. Well, stick with me. I'll try

23 and make it simple for you.

24 A. Please.

25 Q. More simple. You've told me about





53



1 the documents. I've covered all the

2 documents, haven't I? You've got the

3 documents you copied and you've got the

4 documents that were anonymously sent to you,

5 right?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. Do you have any other documents

8 about this investigation, other than those

9 documents? Do you?

10 A. Oh, I'm sorry. If I understand

11 the question correctly, no, as I said, not

12 that I recall because post-August '98 began

13 the grand jury. And certainly I don't have

14 any information from the grand jury room.

15 Q. So we've got your personal

16 knowledge about your involvement in the case,

17 right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. We've got your knowledge from the

20 written documents that you've just described

21 for me?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And then subsequent to August of

24 1998, your knowledge about the case and its

25 status would be limited to what you have





54



1 either seen or heard in the media or what

2 may have been officially stated by law

3 enforcement authorities, right?

4 A. As far as I recall, I don't

5 recall anything, as I have said, post August

6 of 1998 coming my way, but I'm not limiting

7 myself to that, if that answers your

8 question.

9 Q. As we sit here today, can you

10 think of anything other than that? Is that

11 your best recollection as you sit here today,

12 sir?

13 A. Yes, as I sit here right now, if

14 I understand this correctly, that's my answer.

15 Q. And I'm sure that you came to

16 this deposition in an effort to prepare for

17 it and to refresh yourself about the

18 investigation, you knew you were going to be

19 asked about it, didn't you?

20 A. The question being I know I was

21 going to be asked about the investigation?

22 Q. Sure.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. JonBenet Ramsey, that was the

25 first murder investigation that you were





55



1 involved in; is that right?

2 A. As a detective, yes.

3 Q. You were involved in a murder

4 investigation in some other capacity?

5 A. I had been on homicide scenes as

6 a uniformed officer.

7 Q. But as a detective actively

8 investigating the murder, was JonBenet Ramsey

9 the first murder investigation in that

10 capacity for you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can we also say that it was the

13 only one?

14 A. No.

15 Q. So you were involved as a

16 detective in other homicide investigations?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Tell me about those. How many?

19 A. One other.

20 Q. When was that?

21 A. In 1997, I believe.

22 Q. Is that the one where the police

23 officer was present when someone shot someone

24 else in a domestic dispute?

25 A. Yes.





56



1 Q. And then the person came down and

2 admitted that he had shot or she had shot

3 their spouse?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And that was kind of the end all

6 of that case, wasn't it? Pretty open and

7 shut, wouldn't you agree?

8 A. When you say end all, yes, that

9 concluded rather quickly.

10 Q. Yeah, I mean as I understand that

11 case, there was a domestic dispute call, the

12 police officer was there and one of the

13 spouses shot the other one and killed them,

14 right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And then came down to the police

17 headquarters, and I believe you may have even

18 been the person talking to the perpetrator,

19 and that person admitted to shooting his --

20 was it his spouse or her spouse?

21 A. Her spouse.

22 Q. Her spouse. Anything other than

23 that one case prior to the JonBenet Ramsey

24 murder investigation, did you have any other

25 case where you were involved in a homicide





57



1 investigation as a detective?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Okay. So it was the only other

4 one; JonBenet Ramsey was your last one I'm

5 sure, right?

6 A. No, the last one was this

7 Jakob-Chien homicide we're describing.

8 Q. That was the last one, I thought

9 that was in -- oh, I'm sorry, that was in

10 1997 but your involvement ended in '97. The

11 last one you've been involved in went through

12 '98 and that was JonBenet Ramsey?

13 A. Right.

14 Q. From the time you were assigned to

15 the JonBenet Ramsey case up until the time

16 that you left, were you assigned to any other

17 homicide case?

18 A. Other than the one we noted, no.

19 Q. And I take it the JonBenet Ramsey

20 case, other than the case that you noted,

21 pretty much was your full-time job; is that

22 right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And have you ever had any

25 training, formal training, in handwriting





58



1 analysis?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Have you ever had any formal

4 training in criminal profiling?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Other than the 1997 case where you

7 obtained the confession from the spouse who

8 shot her husband while the police officer was

9 present on the premises, and other than the

10 Ramsey case, have you ever conducted any

11 other interrogations of murder suspects or

12 potential suspects?

13 A. On reported homicides, no, not

14 that I'm aware of.

15 Q. Would you be willing to authorize

16 us, subject to your counsel's recommendation

17 or right to object if he asked, would you be

18 willing to authorize us to obtain a copy of

19 your Boulder Police Department personnel file?

20 MR. DIAMOND: You don't have to

21 answer that. If you want to make a request

22 to me, I will respond.

23 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) How many internal

24 affairs investigations have you been the

25 subject of?





59



1 A. I believe just one.

2 Q. When was that?

3 A. In the early to mid part of 19 --

4 of the 1990s.

5 Q. Was that Wheat Ridge or Boulder?

6 A. That was with the Boulder Police

7 Department.

8 Q. Did that stem out of a shooting?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Or did it -- just give me a

11 general idea of what it involved.

12 A. An unauthorized vehicular pursuit.

13 Q. And that's the only one, the only

14 internal affairs investigation?

15 A. That's right. The incidents that

16 you refer to -- there was no further -- to

17 be an internal affairs complaint there has to

18 be a complainant and you mentioned the

19 shooting incident, there was no complaint.

20 Q. Is there any reason why the

21 two-page report on Chris Wolf was in your

22 book, why, for example, that was separated

23 out from the other box of materials?

24 A. No, I didn't say in my book. I

25 said in a book. And this summer when I knew





60



1 the Wolf case was pending, I was pleased to

2 find that folded in half and stuck in a

3 book.

4 Q. What book was it stuck in?

5 A. A book on my desk, on my library

6 shelf.

7 Q. Why were you pleased to find it?

8 A. Because I knew I would be giving

9 testimony in this case and it might help me

10 recollect some of what I did four or five

11 years ago.

12 Q. You could also refresh yourself

13 with some of the statements you made in your

14 book about Mr. Wolf, couldn't you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You recall Chris Wolf, don't you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Am I correct that the Boulder

19 Police Department conducted a thorough

20 investigation of Chris Wolf?

21 A. I'm aware and was a participant in

22 the Boulder Police Department investigating

23 Mr. Wolf, yes.

24 Q. My question was though, sir, do

25 you agree that the Boulder Police Department





61



1 conducted a thorough investigation of Chris

2 Wolf?

3 A. I know what I did with my

4 involvement with Mr. Wolf, but I don't have

5 personal knowledge of what the detectives who

6 subsequently closed him out as a suspect did

7 to satisfy themselves.

8 Q. Well, take a look, if you would,

9 at page 273 of your book.

10 MR. DIAMOND: For the record, do

11 we have the hard cover?

12 MR. WOOD: Yeah, this is a hard

13 cover.

14 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) 273 and this is

15 just in context apparently on an incident

16 you're describing that occurred on February

17 the 25th of 1998, with Mayor Bob Greenlee.

18 Do you know Mayor Greenlee?

19 MR. DIAMOND: Can you point to

20 where you are, at the top of the page?

21 MR. WOOD: Just hang on a second,

22 pay attention, you'll get there.

23 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) In context do you

24 recall the February incident with Mayor

25 Greenlee about Chris Wolf?





62



1 A. I don't recall the date being a

2 specific date in February but I certainly

3 recall meeting with Mr. Greenlee, yes, about

4 Chris Wolf.

5 Q. Look at the top of page 273. If

6 you would follow with me, quote, We need to

7 check this out, the mayor snorted. We need

8 a thorough investigation into this. End

9 quote. "I guess he wanted me to cower in

10 his presence. Greenlee trapped himself, not

11 me." Quote, We are thoroughly investigating

12 him, end quote, "I replied. Even as we

13 spoke, Chris Wolf was in an interview room

14 voluntarily giving handwriting, hair and DNA

15 samples and a statement."

16 Have you followed me?

17 A. I have followed you.

18 Q. Have I read that correctly?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So it was your understanding that

21 the Boulder Police Department was thoroughly

22 investigating Chris Wolf, true?

23 A. Yes, even contemporaneous with my

24 exchange with the mayor on that particular

25 day.





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1 Q. And the investigation of Mr. Wolf

2 had started back in January of 1997; is that

3 right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How did -- how did Chris Wolf

6 first become a suspect in the JonBenet Ramsey

7 murder investigation, Mr. Thomas?

8 A. Through a citizen informant.

9 Q. And who was that citizen

10 informant?

11 A. Jackie Dilson.

12 Q. Tell me your recollection of what

13 Jackie Dilson did that resulted in Mr. Wolf

14 becoming a suspect in the Ramsey murder

15 investigation.

16 A. I participated in a meeting with

17 Jackie Dilson in which she offered an account

18 with some dubious issues on the front end.

19 She offered a piece of physical evidence that

20 was exculpatory to Mr. Wolf. There were

21 questions surrounding her stability and mental

22 condition. Nonetheless, we investigated

23 Mr. Wolf over a period of approximately 12 to

24 15 months, during which time Ms. Wolf's --

25 MR. DIAMOND: Ms. Wolf?





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1 A. I'm sorry, Ms. Dilson's accounts

2 grew increasingly suspicious by way of making

3 admissions and information known to us in a

4 less than timely fashion.

5 And then continuing to supply

6 information that became increasingly void of

7 credibility, including linking Access Graphics

8 and Lockheed Martin in some conspiracy

9 involving arms sales to "Third World countries

10 and Chris Wolf planting by way of this

11 conspiracy somehow a stun gun video inside

12 the Ramsey home.

13 Additionally, she tried to

14 implicate Mr. Wolf in other crimes, including

15 another homicide, and another individual or

16 team of detectives were assigned to attempt a

17 different tact with Mr. Wolf and were

18 successful in gaining his compliance and

19 cooperation, and I was made aware that they

20 subsequently internally cleared him from

21 involvement in the Ramsey matter.

22 MR. DIAMOND: Before you ask him

23 the next question, may I have a minute with

24 the witness?

25 MR. WOOD: If we note on the





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1 record the time and it's not charged against

2 us.

3 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

4 10:17. We're going off the record.

5 MR. WOOD: We don't have to go

6 off the record.

7 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Oh, never mind.

8 We're still on the record.

9 MR. DIAMOND: Go ahead.

10 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Had you completed

11 your answer?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, if I am hearing you, you

14 gave me kind of a general overview of the

15 Chris Wolf matter as pertains to Jackie

16 Dilson that apparently she came to you as a

17 citizen informant, the Boulder Police

18 Department, provided information and then as

19 that information was investigated, apparently

20 you, perhaps others, felt that it was not

21 necessarily credible and had suspicions about

22 it as it pertains to Jackie Dilson, am I

23 right?

24 A. If you're asking me were there

25 questions about Jackie Dilson's credibility,





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1 yes.

2 Q. But you didn't know that the first

3 day you met her, I mean you accepted on face

4 value the information and you followed up on

5 it to investigate Mr. Wolf, true?

6 A. No, no, other detectives and

7 myself who were present at that immediately

8 had serious questions about her stability and

9 credibility.

10 Q. But not so much so that you did

11 not follow up on it, true?

12 A. We followed up on dozens of such

13 suspects who came to us by way of citizen

14 information.

15 Q. We know it is true that Chris

16 Wolf was a Boulder Police Department suspect

17 in the JonBenet Ramsey investigation, right?

18 A. You used the word suspect. That

19 was always an issue inside the police

20 department who would and wouldn't be on this

21 proverbial suspect list. But as we sit here

22 today, certainly he, among many others, I

23 considered a suspect in the case.

24 Q. And you later learned that the

25 district attorney's office viewed Mr. Wolf as





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1 a suspect, true?

2 A. True in that, after the fact, I

3 came to learn that they were conducting some

4 investigation that I had been previously

5 unaware of.

6 Q. It is clear from your involvement

7 that Mr. Wolf became a suspect in the

8 JonBenet Ramsey murder investigation as a

9 result of Jackie Dilson, true?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Several months later, it was

12 several months after January of 1997 before

13 any information was provided by the Ramsey --

14 John and Patsy Ramsey's investigators to law

15 enforcement about Mr. Wolf; is that true?

16 A. I'm sorry, give me that time line

17 again, Mr. Wood.

18 Q. Yeah, several -- if this helps any

19 at all as I understand it, and you may tell

20 me you don't know or you may agree with me,

21 Steve Ainsworth started looking into Chris

22 Wolf in August of 1997. Does that coincide

23 with your recollection?

24 A. No.

25 Q. When do you think Steve Ainsworth





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1 began to look at him?

2 A. June of 1997.

3 Q. Okay. Subsequent to that, the

4 Ramseys' investigators began to provide some

5 information to the district attorney's office

6 about Mr. Wolf; is that your understanding?

7 A. I have no personal knowledge of

8 what the Ramsey investigators were or weren't

9 doing.

10 Q. They didn't provide you with any

11 information about Mr. Wolf, did they?

12 A. Me personally, no, not that I'm

13 aware of.

14 Q. Are you aware of any information

15 that the Ramsey investigators provided to the

16 Boulder Police Department about Mr. Wolf?

17 A. I can't speak for others, but

18 certainly none came to me directly.

19 Q. You were operating from the

20 standpoint that you were following up on Ms.

21 Dilson's information and developing and

22 investigating that information and any leads

23 or other areas that your investigation might

24 take you with respect to Chris Wolf, true?

25 A. Mr. Wolf, if I understand it





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1 correctly, if you're asking me if I was

2 following up on information that Dilson

3 was --

4 Q. Mr. Wood. That's okay.

5 A. I'm sorry, Mr. Wood, that

6 Ms. Dilson was providing regarding Chris Wolf,

7 yes, I was doing that.

8 Q. You said when she first came to

9 you she provided you with a piece of

10 exculpatory evidence. What was that?

11 A. From a pillow case, Ms. Dilson

12 produced a length of rope that was

13 immediately visually inconsistent to the

14 persons present with the murder ligature in

15 the homicide case.

16 Q. Well, now how is that exculpatory.

17 You're saying it wouldn't be incriminating but

18 how does it as a piece of evidence prove to

19 be exculpatory of Mr. Wolf?

20 A. It may be a choice of words on my

21 behalf but she did not produce us -- or

22 produce any physical evidence that

23 incriminated him. There was nothing that she

24 produced that evening by way of physical

25 evidence that included him in the running, so





70



1 to speak.

2 Q. That would be a better way of

3 phrasing it than to say it was exculpatory,

4 wouldn't you agree?

5 A. I won't quibble with you on that,

6 Mr. Wood.

7 Q. I don't want you to quibble with

8 me. I want you to tell me whether it's a

9 more accurate statement that the evidence that

10 she presented to you with respect to the rope

11 did not incriminate Mr. Wolf, but nor did it

12 prove to be itself exculpatory of Mr. Wolf,

13 is that accurate?

14 A. Okay. True, sure.

15 Q. Okay. Tell me about the first

16 time you had a chance to meet Mr. Wolf, what

17 you recall about that.

18 A. On a particular date in January of

19 1997, shortly after Dilson's information, we

20 had Mr. Wolf brought into the police

21 department in which we had a rather

22 unpleasant exchange and little or no

23 information was obtained from him at that

24 time.

25 Q. Was his conduct at that time what





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1 you would characterize as suspicious?

2 A. Everything depends on context but

3 he was not, certainly not cooperative.

4 Q. Well, didn't you ask him to write

5 certain words that were from the ransom note

6 found in the Ramsey house?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And didn't he refuse to do so?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That certainly was not consistent

11 with innocence, was it?

12 A. Sometimes I've found that a lack

13 of cooperation like that may not be any more

14 indicative of guilt than a cooperative person

15 who turns out to be guilty.

16 Q. So someone's refusal to cooperate

17 with you by either agreeing to an interview

18 or submitting to a handwriting exemplar is

19 not viewed by you necessarily as being

20 indicative of guilt, true?

21 A. It's not evidence.

22 Q. Well, you said, I believe, that

23 you have found that a lack of cooperation

24 like that may not be any more indicative of

25 guilt than a cooperative person who turns out





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1 to be guilty; is that right?

2 A. Yeah, in response to your

3 question.

4 Q. So let me put it in the terms

5 that you put it. It is not evidence of

6 guilt by simply refusing to cooperate with

7 the police by either agreeing to an interview

8 or submitting to a handwriting exemplar, true?

9 A. Are you reading back to me my

10 statement or your question?

11 Q. I'm asking you a question. Don't

12 worry about what I'm reading; I'm asking you

13 a question.

14 A. Repeat the question for me,

15 please.

16 Q. It is not evidence of guilt on

17 the part of someone who simply refuses to

18 cooperate with the police by either agreeing

19 to an interview or submitting to a

20 handwriting exemplar, true?

21 MR. DIAMOND: If that's what he

22 said that doesn't make sense.

23 A. I have lost you one more time,

24 Mr. Wood.

25 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You don't





73



1 understand the question?

2 A. No.

3 Q. An individual who is not

4 cooperative and does not agree to a police

5 interview or agree to a police request to

6 provide a handwriting exemplar, that refusal

7 to cooperate is not evidence of that

8 individual's guilt, true?

9 A. I would agree with that.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 A. In that context.

12 Q. In what context?

13 A. We're talking about Mr. Wolf here.

14 Q. Well, I was talking about any

15 individual.

16 A. Then repeat the question to me,

17 please.

18 Q. An individual who is not

19 cooperative and does not agree to a police

20 interview or agree to a police request to

21 provide a handwriting exemplar, that

22 individual's refusal to cooperate is not

23 itself evidence of that individual's guilt,

24 true?

25 A. That is not evidence you can take





74



1 to a judge in an affidavit, certainly not.

2 Q. Not evidence of guilt?

3 A. Not evidence in a courtroom, as I

4 understand it.

5 Q. Okay. The -- there is the use of

6 the word hobbled, do you know what that

7 means?

8 A. In the context of police work?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. What does that mean to hobble

12 somebody?

13 A. When you have a violent or a

14 physically resistive or combative individual

15 or suspect who