December 11, 2001 9:14 a.m.

Page 1








5 vs. NO. 00-CIV-1187(JEC)





8 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





December 11, 2001

13 9:14 a.m.

14 Alexander Gallo & Associates, Inc.

500 The Candler Building

15 127 Peachtree Street, N.E.

Atlanta, Georgia



Alexander J. Gallo, CCR-B-1332, CRR









Page 2


2 .

3 On behalf of the Plaintiff:


5 Law Offices of Darnay Hoffman

6 Suite 209

7 210 West 70th Street

8 New York, New York 10023

9 (212) 712-2766

10 -and-


12 Law Offices of Evan M. Altman

13 Suite 495

14 5901-C Peachtree Dunwoody Road

15 Atlanta, Georgia 30328

16 (770) 394-6466

17 .

18 .

19 .

20 .

21 .

22 .

23 .

24 .

25 .

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1 On behalf of the Defendants:




5 Powell, Goldstein, Frazer & Murphy, L.L.P.

6 Sixteenth Floor

7 191 Peachtree Street, N.E.

8 Atlanta, Georgia 30303

9 (404) 572-6600

10 -and-

11 L. LIN WOOD, Esq.



14 L. Lin Wood, P.C.

15 2140 The Equitable Building

16 100 Peachtree Street

17 Atlanta, Georgia 30303

18 (404) 522-1713

19 .

20 Also Present:

21 John Bennett Ramsey

22 Michael McElroy, Videographer

23 .

24 .

25 .

Page 4

1 Videotaped Deposition of Patricia P. Ramsey

2 December 11, 2001

3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the

4 video record at 9:14.

5 MR. HOFFMAN: Good morning, Mrs.

6 Ramsey, Lin Wood.

7 This is the deposition of Patricia

8 Ramsey in the case of Robert Christian Wolf

9 versus John Bennett Ramsey and Patricia Paugh

10 Ramsey.

11 Do you need the index number for that

12 for the tape?

13 Mrs. Ramsey, have you ever attended a

14 deposition before.

15 MR. WOOD: Maybe we ought to have --

16 MR. HOFFMAN: So we have a record of

17 everybody that is here.

18 MR. WOOD: -- so we have an

19 understanding, we might want to make sure we have

20 a record of who is here and then a couple of

21 other stipulations.

22 I am Lin Wood. I represent John and

23 Patsy Ramsey.

24 MR. RAWLS: I am Jim Rawls,

25 co-counsel with Mr. Wood for John and

Page 5

1 Patsy Ramsey.

2 MR. RAMSEY: I am John Ramsey.

3 MS. PAULK: Mahaley Paulk.

4 MR. BAUER: Derek Bauer.

5 MR. SCHROEDER: Eric Schroeder.

6 MR. ALTMAN: Evan Altman, co-counsel

7 with Darnay Hoffman on behalf of Mr. Wolf.

8 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes. And, of course,

9 Darnay Hoffman, lead counsel on the Chris Wolf

10 case.

11 MR. WOOD: And I think we have

12 agreed that this deposition is taken pursuant to

13 the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and that the

14 deposition is taken pursuant to agreement of

15 counsel.

16 Mrs. Ramsey will read and sign, and I

17 am sure that can be undertaken before any notary

18 public.

19 MR. HOFFMAN: Certainly.

20 Also, this is a deposition that is

21 being taken subject to a so-ordered, stipulated

22 protective order also and confidentiality agreement

23 between counsel.

24 MR. WOOD: It is. And in that

25 regard, I want to make just one statement, if I

Page 6

1 may, on the record.

2 MR. HOFFMAN: Sure.

3 MR. WOOD: Federal Rule of Civil

4 Procedure 26(b)(1) states that the scope of

5 discovery is as follows, and I quote:

6 "Parties may obtain discovery regarding

7 any matter not privileged that is relevant to the

8 claim or defense of any party."

9 And it goes on to state:

10 "For good cause, the Court may order

11 discovery of any matter relevant to the subject

12 matter involved in the action."

13 As you know, Darnay, that represents

14 the change that was effectuated in the scope of

15 discovery with the December 2000 amendments to the

16 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. And in the

17 stipulation and protective order in paragraph 2,

18 the parties, including the plaintiff, and you, on

19 behalf of the plaintiff, have agreed that, and I

20 quote from the protective order, "Consistent with

21 the amendments to the Federal Rules of Civil

22 Procedure, which became effective December 1,

23 2000, the parties recognize the right of parties'

24 counsel to issue appropriate instructions to

25 parties during their depositions in order to

Page 7

1 maintain the appropriate scope of discovery as

2 defined in the rules."

3 I make that observation solely because

4 I do not want there to be any subsequent

5 misunderstanding or misrepresentation as to why it

6 may be necessary, during the course of this

7 deposition, for me, as counsel for the Ramseys,

8 to instruct Mrs. Ramsey that a subject that you

9 are inquiring about is beyond the scope of the

10 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.

11 That is to say, you may inquire into

12 something that is relevant to the subject matter,

13 but since there has not been good cause shown and

14 a court order entered, as we have noted in our

15 protective order, the parties have agreed that we

16 would instruct the witness not to answer because

17 it would go beyond the claim or the defense in

18 this action and it would not be in any way a

19 matter of Mrs. Ramsey being unwilling to answer a

20 question. It would simply be a matter of, as you

21 and I know, we don't make the rules. We are

22 simply obligated to play by the rules, and so,

23 therefore, we will obviously play by the rules

24 today. And if we do get outside the relevant

25 scope of discovery, I will exercise my obligation

Page 8

1 as recognized by you to make an instruction to

2 her not to answer the question.

3 Agreed?

4 MR. HOFFMAN: Absolutely.

5 MR. WOOD: Okay.

6 MR. HOFFMAN: And, in fact, what I

7 thought we would do is that, if we run into a

8 roadblock with respect to what is, in fact,

9 relevant or not relevant, what we could do is

10 just simply make a notation for the record, and

11 then I thought that the most prudent thing for

12 everybody to do is, as we are coming to the

13 close of discovery, that almost in like an

14 omnibus motion, both parties could present Judge

15 Carnes with anything that they wanted in the way

16 of an instruction to compel an answer, if

17 appropriate.

18 So if we need to get a judge's

19 ruling on issues or whatever, we will just simply

20 reserve it -- preserve it in the deposition

21 record; and then what we would do is at some

22 future date, just simply go before Judge Carnes

23 and just have her make a one-time ruling on all

24 of our issues and claims and whatever else with

25 respect to discovery, which I think is probably

Page 9

1 the most economical way to do it, and maybe I

2 think Judge Carnes would probably appreciate it if

3 we handled it that way.

4 MR. WOOD: Well, I just don't want

5 the record to be misconstrued that, obviously, we

6 understand that there may be, obviously, a need

7 to, in this deposition, to make the instruction.

8 And it is not to be used against the witness.

9 It is simply a matter of trying to properly

10 follow the rules.

11 And then, if necessary, if someone

12 believes that the witness should have answered,

13 then obviously that party has a right, as that

14 party deems appropriate, to file a motion with

15 Judge Carnes and get a ruling.

16 I think we agree on what we

17 stipulated to, and I think we agree on the scope

18 of the deposition. I don't really think we are

19 going to have a problem. I think you will stay

20 to the issue of the claims made by Mr. Wolf and

21 the defenses made by the Ramseys. And if we

22 don't go beyond that, we are not going to have a

23 problem, I don't believe, on that particular

24 issue.

25 MR. HOFFMAN: Just for the record, so

Page 10

1 there is no misunderstanding later on in the

2 deposition, what precisely do you see the claims

3 as Mr. Wolf is representing them in the complaint

4 for the purposes of establishing relevance here?

5 MR. WOOD: Mr. Wolf has made a

6 claim, as I understand it, that the Ramseys

7 published certain statements in their book that

8 were false pertaining to him, that they published

9 certain statements in their book that were also

10 defamatory with regard to Mr. Wolf. That makes

11 up the first part of his libel claim.

12 And then he contends that they

13 published those statements, false and defamatory,

14 with actual malice. And as I understand the

15 claim, that actual malice is based on the

16 allegation that Patsy Ramsey killed JonBenet and

17 that Mr. Ramsey has been part of a cover-up.

18 The second part of the case, as I

19 understand it, is that, subject to the statute of

20 limitations problems, Mr. Wolf is asserting that

21 the Ramseys hired investigators to give the

22 Boulder police information about Mr. Wolf which

23 inflicted emotional distress upon him.

24 Those are your claims, as I think I

25 clearly understand them. Have I got them right?

Page 11

1 MR. HOFFMAN: Absolutely. The only

2 reason I am asking you to articulate them for the

3 record is so that, if I go into any of these

4 claim areas, you will at least deem them relevant

5 for the purposes of the deposition.

6 MR. WOOD: I will have to deal with

7 that on a question-by-question basis.

8 MR. HOFFMAN: I understand that, but

9 you do understand that if, in fact, one of the

10 claims is that Mrs. Ramsey was somehow involved

11 in either the authorship of the ransom note or in

12 the death of her daughter, that questions

13 involving that are, in fact, relevant for the

14 purposes of the rules?

15 MR. WOOD: I don't have any problem

16 with acknowledging that issues regarding ransom

17 note authorship by Mrs. Ramsey, and the issue of

18 whether she, as contended by you and Mr. Wolf,

19 killed her daughter, are clearly part of Mr.

20 Wolf's lawsuit. And that is part of the burden

21 that Mr. Wolf has to carry to prove that beyond

22 clear and convincing evidence.

23 The point being, though, that there

24 are a host of matters that would go to the

25 subject matter but are not specifically confined

Page 12

1 to those claims and the defenses, the basic

2 defense being truth, that published statements

3 were true, and that, in fact, Mrs. Ramsey was not

4 involved in the criminal death of her daughter.

5 I think the only other defense we

6 have is not something you would be questioning

7 Mrs. Ramsey about, and that might go to the issue

8 of I think the 13th defense and the issue of

9 publicity of the plaintiff.

10 I don't think we are going to have a

11 problem; but, for example, personal private

12 information about the Ramseys' life at present

13 certainly would not be relevant to the claims

14 made.

15 MR. HOFFMAN: No. I agree.

16 MR. WOOD: That is just one example.

17 I want to make sure we protect that on the

18 record. I think we understand where we are

19 headed, so let's get going and get there.

20 PATRICIA RAMSEY, having been first

21 duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:



24 Q. Good afternoon -- actually, good

25 morning, Mrs. Ramsey. Thank you for being here.

Page 13

1 A. Good morning.

2 Q. You just heard your attorney explain,

3 basically, the claims in this action. Is there

4 anything that you need clarified with respect to

5 what he said before we go forward?

6 MR. WOOD: I don't think she can

7 answer that question.

8 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. I just want to

9 give her the opportunity to --

10 MR. WOOD: We would have to send her

11 to law school and let her go 24 years of

12 practice before we would ask her if she could

13 understand anything I might say.

14 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I

15 believe that you were the coauthor on a book

16 called "the Death of Innocence"; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. And I would just like to ask you, in

20 your own words, though I know there is discussion

21 in the book, why it is that you wrote the book

22 "Death of Innocence"?

23 A. My husband and I wrote the book so

24 that we could make sure that the truth was

25 presented accurately from our own hearts and lips.

Page 14

1 Q. Were there any other reasons?

2 A. No, sir.

3 Q. I am going to -- there is a

4 reference on page 408 of your book. I am going

5 to show that to Mr. Lin first.

6 MR. WOOD: Do you want to mark this?

7 MR. HOFFMAN: No. I just simply

8 want to refresh her memory with respect to that.

9 MR. WOOD: This is page 408 of the

10 paperback?

11 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes, with respect to

12 the paperback.

13 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Where there is --

14 MR. WOOD: Are you asking her to

15 look at the highlighted portion?

16 MR. HOFFMAN: The highlighted portion

17 there, just to refresh her memory with respect to

18 maybe another reason why the book was written.

19 MR. WOOD: You are not representing

20 that this paragraph talks about why the book was

21 written?

22 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, it is one of the

23 express reasons for going into the material that

24 was gone into there with the hope that the killer

25 will be caught; the truth being that the Ramseys,

Page 15

1 contrary to media reports, were not responsible

2 for their daughter's death, and that this book,

3 in fact, not only shows that, but also the book

4 contains a chapter on the murderer, meaning that

5 there is a profile of the potential murderer.

6 And I wanted to know from Mrs. Ramsey

7 whether the purpose of the book was something

8 more than just a general, you wanted the truth

9 out.

10 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Was the purpose of

11 the book also to present information to the

12 public who might then be able to come forward as

13 to who the murderer was in this particular case?

14 MR. WOOD: That doesn't have anything

15 to do with page 408.

16 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, it is mentioned

17 there. That is one of the stated goals.

18 MR. WOOD: We may just be parsing

19 words. This talks about their goals, bringing the

20 killer to justice.

21 MR. HOFFMAN: Right.

22 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Was this part of

23 your goal?

24 MR. WOOD: Was the book consistent

25 with part of your goals? I think that is a

Page 16

1 fair question.

2 THE WITNESS: So could you repeat the

3 question?

4 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) You will be asking

5 me to do a lot of that today. Believe me.

6 Was one of the goals of writing the

7 book to help in the solution of this crime,

8 identifying the possible murderer; meaning that if

9 you put this information before the public, that

10 maybe someone would have information that could

11 then come forward --

12 MR. WOOD: Objection.

13 MR. HOFFMAN: You object?

14 MR. WOOD: I object to the form of

15 the question, but go ahead and finish. I thought

16 you were through.

17 MR. HOFFMAN: I would like Mrs.

18 Ramsey to explain whether or not that was part of

19 the goal of the book was basically to assist in

20 finding the killer of JonBenet Ramsey.

21 THE WITNESS: Well, I believe there

22 was a section of the book that talks about the

23 profile of the killer, as we have been told about

24 him. So that information, yes, was included in

25 the book to be brought forth to the public in

Page 17

1 the event that that would assist in someone

2 remembering things that would lead us to leads

3 that would lead us to the killer.

4 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) So would it be

5 fair to say that the purpose of the book was to

6 do something other than just simply tell the

7 truth about the case, that there was -- that you

8 were trying to assist the investigation in some

9 way by including certain information in the book,

10 such as the profile of the murderer?

11 A. The reason that I wrote the book is

12 so that there is in one place, in black and

13 white, an accurate account of what happened.

14 I mean, when I was writing it, I was

15 thinking of my children and my grandchildren.

16 There are so many stories out there that are

17 false and misleading and untrue, I wanted -- you

18 know, I was thinking of this as a historical

19 document to give to my children.

20 Q. Could you explain, to the best that

21 you remember, the process by which you wrote the

22 book? I mean, did you sit down with a pen and

23 pad or did you use a Dictaphone? How was the

24 book written, given that both you and John are

25 listed as authors, the actual writing process?

Page 18

1 MR. WOOD: I object to the form of

2 the question.

3 You may answer the question, if you

4 understand it.

5 The problem is you kind of sometimes

6 ask two or three questions within one.

7 MR. HOFFMAN: I understand.

8 MR. WOOD: I want her to be clear on

9 exactly what the question is. I think, correct

10 me if I am wrong, I think he is trying to find

11 out whether you actually physically typed on a

12 computer, dictated into a tape, made handwritten

13 notes.

14 Is that what you are asking?

15 MR. HOFFMAN: Exactly.

16 MR. WOOD: Do you understand that?

17 THE WITNESS: I think we did some of

18 all of that.

19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Did you and Mr.

20 Ramsey sit physically together and write the book,

21 or did you write it in separate, you know,

22 environments, meaning you are in one part of the

23 house and he is in another part? Did you

24 compose it that way?

25 A. Some of all of that. We were living

Page 19

1 in an apartment at the time, so it was a small

2 living space. So we were --

3 Q. At some point, I believe there was --

4 well, I will withdraw that question.

5 Did anyone else assist you in writing

6 the book?

7 A. We had an editor that was provided by

8 the publisher and a ghost writer, if you want to

9 call it that, who helped us with some of the

10 structure and organization.

11 Q. Who is the ghost writer?

12 A. I think his name is in the book

13 there somewhere. Let's see. Oh, Robert Wise,

14 Reverend Robert Wise.

15 Q. When you looked at the final

16 manuscript of the book, was it very different

17 from what you had originally prepared and given

18 to Mr. Wise, or Reverend Wise?

19 MR. WOOD: Are you assuming they

20 prepared a manuscript and gave to it Wise and

21 then got back a manuscript?

22 MR. HOFFMAN: At some point, I am

23 assuming that their work product was turned into

24 a manuscript of some sort and that Mr. Wise

25 worked with it in some way.

Page 20

1 MR. WOOD: Well, I am not sure that

2 is right. It may have been given to him

3 piecemeal, Darnay. I think you need to figure

4 that out first.

5 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I will withdraw

6 that question and ask you very simply, explain

7 exactly how you worked with Reverend Wise on

8 writing the book.

9 A. Well, he would sit, and we would

10 talk. I had some things that I had written, and

11 sometimes he would ask questions about things.

12 It was kind of a back and forth. Sometimes he

13 would take something I had written and edit, and

14 then would -- I mean, it was kind of an evolving

15 process.

16 Q. Did he use a tape recorder to tape

17 any of the things you were saying?

18 A. I believe so, yes.

19 Q. Did you give him written notes to

20 look at?

21 A. I can't remember exactly. I don't --

22 Q. Did you prepare notes for the book,

23 written notes?

24 A. Yes. Sometimes -- I mean, I had

25 some things I had written and some things we

Page 21

1 just talked about.

2 Q. Did you keep copies of your notes?

3 A. No, I did not.

4 Q. Do you know what happened to your

5 notes?

6 A. They were thrown away as I finished

7 with that part of the writing.

8 Q. You threw them away?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were you shown a copy of what we

11 would call the rough draft of the book before it

12 was sent to the publisher?

13 A. There were many drafts, yes, that we

14 would keep reviewing.

15 Q. Who would prepare the drafts?

16 A. A typist, I think, or the editor,

17 perhaps. She kept a main manuscript going.

18 Q. A main file?

19 A. I am not sure how she did it, but

20 she would keep it.

21 Q. Were you given an opportunity to

22 review the final manuscript before it was sent to

23 the publisher?

24 A. I believe so. I believe so.

25 Q. Do you remember reviewing?

Page 22

1 A. Not specifically. I mean, there were

2 so many iterations, I can't remember exactly

3 which.

4 Q. When was the first time you had an

5 opportunity to read the book from beginning to

6 end as it was published?

7 MR. WOOD: After it was published?

8 MR. HOFFMAN: In the form in which

9 it was published.

10 MR. WOOD: Like the galleys?

11 MR. HOFFMAN: It could have been a

12 galley. I don't know at what point --

13 THE WITNESS: You mean the hardback

14 book?

15 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) The hardback book,

16 yes.

17 A. Probably when it was completely

18 published in March of 2000.

19 Q. Did you see anything that looked like

20 what they call galleys?

21 A. I don't think I saw galleys.

22 Q. So the first time you actually were

23 able to read the book, then, is when it appeared

24 in hard cover in the actual bound, hard-covered

25 issue?

Page 23

1 A. Well, I read the manuscript. I don't

2 know if you call that the book.

3 Q. So there was a manuscript, a completed

4 manuscript that you were able to read before it

5 was sent to the printer; is that correct?

6 A. I believe so.

7 Q. Did you review it?

8 A. I believe I did.

9 Q. And did you look at portions of it

10 in terms of statements that were accurate or not

11 accurate?

12 A. Well, I primarily -- the way the book

13 is written, I speak, John speaks, I speak, John

14 speaks. And I was mainly concentrating on what I

15 had put in the book.

16 Q. Do you remember, in the book, whether

17 or not there is a theory of the crime that was

18 -- as you believed it may have been committed

19 talked about in the book, written about?

20 A. I am not sure what you mean.

21 Q. The book contains a theory of the

22 crime. Do you remember what the theory of the

23 crime was in the book?

24 MR. WOOD: Why don't you show her

25 what you are talking about in the book.

Page 24

1 THE WITNESS: I mean, the whole book

2 is --

3 MR. WOOD: There may be a number of

4 different theories that are discussed in whole or

5 in part.

6 MR. HOFFMAN: I just want to see

7 what she remembers.

8 MR. WOOD: We are not here to engage

9 in a memory contest about what is or is not in

10 the book. If you have a question about something

11 that is in the book, I think, fairly, you are

12 required to put it in front of her, give her the

13 opportunity to look at it, put it into context,

14 and then respond to your question.

15 So if there is something in the book,

16 be it theory or whatever, show her what you want

17 her to look at, and she will be glad to answer

18 your question.

19 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to test her

20 memory right now.

21 MR. WOOD: We are not going to

22 engage in a memory contest of what is in the

23 book.

24 MR. HOFFMAN: It is not a memory

25 contest. I have a right to see what, if

Page 25

1 anything, Mrs. Ramsey currently remembers about

2 the theory of the crime.

3 MR. WOOD: That is a different

4 question. You are asking her about what is in the

5 book, and she is entitled, and you know she is

6 entitled, to see what you are referencing in the

7 book, put it into context, and then answer your

8 question.

9 MR. HOFFMAN: Mrs. Ramsey, I am going

10 to withdraw the question.

11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I would like you

12 to tell me what, if anything, you can remember

13 about the theory of the crime that you may have

14 developed over time.

15 A. Someone was in our home the night of

16 December 25th and murdered our daughter while we

17 slept.

18 Q. Is there anything more about that

19 theory that you remember or have developed?

20 A. Well, that is basically it. There

21 was someone who is not a member of our family in

22 our home that night, took JonBenet from her bed,

23 and murdered her.

24 Q. With respect to that theory of the

25 crime, is there anything else that you can

Page 26

1 remember about it?

2 MR. WOOD: What do you mean is there

3 anything else she can remember about it?

4 MR. HOFFMAN: Remember about that

5 night as far as it leading to developing that

6 theory.

7 MR. WOOD: I am going to have to --

8 that is a question that is either so vague or so

9 broad -- you are asking her now to say, is there

10 anything she can remember about that night that

11 would lead to her developing that theory?

12 Why don't you ask her a specific

13 question, Darnay. That is too broad and too

14 vague.

15 MR. HOFFMAN: All right.

16 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) What is it about

17 the events of that evening and the next day that

18 has led you to this theory of the crime?

19 A. I found a ransom note. I found my

20 daughter missing from her bedroom. And several

21 hours later, our daughter was found dead in our

22 home. That is pretty clear to make one draw the

23 conclusion that someone came into our home and

24 murdered her.

25 Q. And you don't feel it was a member

Page 27

1 of your own family; is that correct?

2 A. No, sir.

3 MR. WOOD: I think your answer is

4 really "yes, sir." "Is that correct" would

5 require a "yes" response, so that the record is

6 clear.

7 Don't we agree, Darnay?

8 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes, that is fine.

9 THE WITNESS: It was not a member of

10 my family.

11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I am going to take

12 just a short break because I am going to go into

13 another area. I just wanted to sort of generally

14 establish it. So let's take a one- or two-minute

15 break. I know people can't hop up or whatever.

16 MR. WOOD: We don't mind moving.

17 MR. HOFFMAN: No need to. Just a

18 natural break.

19 MR. WOOD: Off the video, too?

20 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes.

21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the

22 video record at 9:39.

23 (A recess was taken.)

24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the

25 video record at 9:49.

Page 28

1 MR. HOFFMAN: Mrs. Ramsey, Lin, I

2 want to proceed when you are ready.

3 MR. WOOD: Absolutely. Go right

4 ahead.

5 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Okay. Mrs. Ramsey,

6 I would like you to look at page 407 of the

7 paperback edition of your book, "the Death of

8 Innocence." I have highlighted a section I would

9 like you to read, which begins number 4 and then,

10 "The ransom note."

11 Could you read that, please, for the

12 record.

13 A. "4. The ransom note. Considered

14 earlier and throughout the book, the note was

15 written by the killer and remains an extremely

16 important clue. An adequate amount of handwriting

17 samples from the killer should conclusively tie

18 him to the long and rambling note."

19 Q. Mrs. Ramsey, do you still agree with

20 that statement?

21 A. I am not sure which statement.

22 Q. The statement you just read in your

23 book, do you still agree with it?

24 A. Well, it is my belief that whoever

25 wrote the ransom note probably had something to

Page 29

1 do with her murder. Is that what you are asking

2 me?

3 Q. Yes, I am. I just want to know --

4 I know this book was written a couple of years

5 ago, and I just want to determine whether it is

6 still your belief, that this statement is still

7 your belief, that you believe this statement to

8 be true today?

9 A. Yes, I believe that. Yes, I believe

10 that.

11 Q. Now I would like you to turn to page

12 145 of "the Death of Innocence," the paperback

13 edition of it, and I would like you to please

14 read out loud starting where it is highlighted "A

15 week and a half after the first of February."

16 If you could, read that, please.

17 A. "A week and a half after the first

18 of February, the Denver Post ran an interesting

19 observation on the handwritten ransom note that

20 Douglas had spoken about on Dateline. The paper

21 said: 'Leaving a handwritten document at the

22 scene of the crime, in most cases, is tantamount

23 to leaving one's calling card. Bradley and other

24 forensic document examiners say that it is nearly

25 impossible for a person to disguise handwriting so

Page 30

1 that an expert can't link a suspect to a

2 document, such as the note found in the Ramsey

3 home. The older a person is, the more automatic

4 and difficult it becomes to conceal the clues.

5 And the longer a document is, the harder it

6 becomes to disguise one's writing.'"

7 Q. Thank you. Do you agree with that

8 statement?

9 MR. WOOD: For clarification, does she

10 agree that that is what the Denver Post said, or

11 are you asking her --

12 MR. HOFFMAN: I am not asking her if

13 that is what the Denver Post said because they

14 are indicating in the book.

15 MR. WOOD: Right.

16 MR. HOFFMAN: I just want to know if

17 she agrees -- just because the statement is in

18 here doesn't necessarily mean she agrees with it.

19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I would just like,

20 for clarification, do you agree with that

21 statement?

22 MR. WOOD: Or has any understanding

23 of who Bradley is, for example.

24 MR. HOFFMAN: I am not really

25 concerned whether she knows who Bradley is. I

Page 31

1 just want to know if she agrees with the

2 statement that "leaving a handwritten document at

3 the scene of the crime in most cases is

4 tantamount to leaving one's calling card." And

5 also, the --

6 MR. WOOD: Do them one at a time.

7 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Start with that.

8 Do you agree with that statement?

9 A. Well, I have been told that this is

10 the ransom note of ransom notes, the longest that

11 people have ever seen, and that it is a lot of

12 information for discovering someone's handwriting,

13 so I don't know if it "is tantamount to leaving

14 a calling card."

15 Q. I was wondering why you had put this

16 statement in this book, if you don't agree with

17 it?

18 A. I didn't say I didn't agree with it.

19 MR. WOOD: I am not sure that is her

20 statement. Again, going back, looking in context

21 to who writes this.

22 THE WITNESS: This was something that

23 was in the newspaper.

24 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I know, but it was

25 included in the book for some purpose, and I am

Page 32

1 assuming, reading it -- and I don't want to make

2 an assumption, but I can only assume reading it

3 that it is put here because you agree with the

4 basic premise of the article, or at least the

5 basic premise of the section that is excerpted

6 for this.

7 MR. WOOD: What is the question?

8 MR. HOFFMAN: I just want to know if

9 she agrees with the first sentence, "Leaving a

10 handwriting document at the scene of the crime in

11 most cases is tantamount to leaving one's calling

12 card."

13 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Do you agree with

14 that statement?

15 MR. WOOD: With all due respect, I

16 think she has given you an answer to that exact

17 question.

18 MR. HOFFMAN: I wasn't certain that

19 she had.

20 MR. WOOD: Let me make sure. I

21 don't want you to not get an answer.

22 MR. HOFFMAN: I mean, it would be

23 consistent with the earlier statement on page 407

24 about "an extremely important clue."

25 MR. WOOD: I thought she did answer

Page 33

1 that. She said: "I had been told that this is

2 the ransom note of ransom notes, the longest that

3 people have seen, that it is a lot of information

4 for discovering someone's handwriting, so I don't

5 know if it is tantamount to leaving a calling

6 card." I mean, that is what she said.

7 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, if she could say

8 yes or no, it would be very helpful.

9 MR. WOOD: That would be, but it

10 would only be if it were the only answer she

11 could give. I think she is entitled to give you

12 her full answer, including an explanation.

13 I think she told you she doesn't

14 disagree with it, but the use of the phrase

15 "leaving a calling card" she is not in the

16 position to comment on.

17 THE WITNESS: A calling card would

18 have been better because it would have had the

19 person's name, address, and phone number.

20 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I was curious as

21 to why this had been put in the book, if you

22 remember. Do you know why this statement was

23 included in the book, the one you just read,

24 "Leaving a handwritten document at the scene of a

25 crime"?

Page 34

1 A. Well, I don't remember exactly. It

2 has been a couple of years.

3 Q. If you remember.

4 A. Well, I don't remember exactly why we

5 put it in here. I believe this is a section

6 that John wrote, so you might want to ask him

7 that.

8 Q. Were you ever asked to give

9 handwriting exemplars at any time by anyone after

10 your daughter's death?

11 A. Yes, I was.

12 Q. Can you tell me who asked you to do

13 that, not violating any attorney-client privilege?

14 A. The Boulder Police Department.

15 Q. Did anyone else ask you to give

16 handwriting exemplars besides the Boulder Police

17 Department?

18 A. I gave several of them. I believe

19 it all had to do with the Boulder Police

20 Department. Whether it was the CBI or --

21 Q. But nobody other than law enforcement

22 asked you to give them handwriting exemplars; is

23 that true?

24 A. I don't remember anyone else asking

25 me.

Page 35

1 Q. I just want to clarify. Do you

2 remember how many times you were asked to give

3 handwriting exemplars by the law enforcement

4 people, authorities? And I am assuming it is in

5 Colorado.

6 A. Yes. I -- five or six, I think.

7 Something like that.

8 Q. In the back of the book, Appendix A,

9 page 428 -- actually, you can identify it as 429.

10 It doesn't have 428 in the upper left-hand

11 corner. It is called "A Chronicle of Cooperation."

12 The paragraph that is second from the bottom,

13 there is an indication when handwriting samples

14 were given by John, and there are dates, and then

15 Patsy, and there are dates, and then Burke, and

16 there are dates.

17 Would you just review that and see if

18 that refreshes your recollection with respect to

19 the dates? Are those dates accurate or

20 substantially accurate, if you can remember?

21 A. I am sure they probably are.

22 Q. And I am counting them. There is a

23 date "December 28, January 4, February 28, April

24 12, and May 20." That is one, two, three, four

25 -- it looks like five.

Page 36

1 Is that what you remember --

2 A. That seems to be fairly --

3 Q. -- as to the number of times?

4 A. -- fairly accurate, yes.

5 Q. Were you ever given an explanation by

6 law enforcement authorities as to why they were

7 asking you to come in so many times to give

8 exemplars, why they needed you to give exemplars

9 over a period of five different dates?

10 A. I don't remember them really saying

11 why they needed more.

12 Q. Did anyone else, without telling me

13 what was actually said, give you a reason as to

14 why you were being asked for so many exemplars?

15 MR. WOOD: And here you are not to

16 give him, nor is he asking you to give him any

17 information about any discussion you had between

18 yourself and your attorneys, if there was any

19 such discussion. He is not entitled to know

20 that, and he is not asking you about that.

21 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Was there anybody

22 else?

23 For instance, maybe Lou Smit may have

24 asked you, maybe somebody from Alex Hunter's

25 office might have asked you or told you or

Page 37

1 whatever, something that is not a privileged

2 communication between you and your attorneys, if

3 you remember.

4 A. No. Just every time they asked me

5 to do it, I willingly gave it.

6 Q. Now I am going to ask you about your

7 reaction to it. Were you surprised that you were

8 asked for so many exemplars, to come back five

9 times, in fact? Were you surprised by that?

10 A. Somewhat, yes.

11 Q. Were you concerned about that?

12 A. I was not concerned, particularly.

13 Q. Do you know if anybody at any time

14 expressed an opinion as to whether you were the

15 author of the ransom note while you were doing

16 this?

17 A. During the handwriting exemplar

18 process?

19 Q. Yes. When you were being asked to

20 give handwriting exemplars, did anybody in law

21 enforcement express the opinion that they thought

22 you were the ransom note writer?

23 A. I don't recall them ever saying that.

24 Q. Do you know whether or not anybody

25 ever expressed the opinion in front of you that

Page 38

1 John was the ransom note writer?

2 A. I never heard anyone say that.

3 Q. Now, what I am going to do is I need

4 some -- we are going to go through a little

5 housekeeping. I am sorry. I just have to do

6 this for purposes of laying foundations.

7 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to ask you

8 to mark these as exhibits.

9 And, Lin, I am going to give you a

10 copy.

11 MR. WOOD: Okay.

12 MR. HOFFMAN: This is for

13 identification purposes.

14 Lin, if you want to look at that.

15 MR. WOOD: Is there a way to relate

16 this to the exhibits that we have --

17 MR. HOFFMAN: What I am going to do

18 is, basically, I would like to show these to Mrs.

19 Ramsey at this time and ask her in a foundational

20 way, one, whether she recognizes what she is

21 being shown, can she identify it, and can she

22 identify the handwriting.

23 MR. WOOD: Are these the exhibits

24 that are attached to the first set of --

25 MR. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh (affirmative).

Page 39

1 MR. WOOD: Do you have them by

2 exhibit number so I can correlate?

3 MR. HOFFMAN: No, I don't. Right

4 now I am doing it in a particular order, which

5 doesn't relate to that. Whether these are

6 ultimately used or not is another matter,

7 but right now I would like to mark this as

8 Exhibit 1.

9 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-1 was marked for

10 identification.)

11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I am

12 going to show you a document that has been marked

13 Plaintiff's Exhibit 1 for identification. I would

14 like you to look at it and take your time. I

15 am going to ask you if you recognize the

16 photograph.

17 MR. WOOD: Let me just say this for

18 the record, Darnay. I think you have given her

19 an enlarged copy of what was possibly one of the

20 exhibits to one of the reports that you filed

21 early in the case with respect to your mandatory

22 responses. And I think she has answered in

23 request for admissions to her best ability whether

24 she could decipher from those copies whether she

25 was the author of the handwriting.

Page 40

1 To the extent that you are giving her

2 the same exhibits but in a different form, either

3 larger or in color versus black and white, et

4 cetera, I just want to make sure that, if there

5 is any confusion down the road between her

6 ability to try to decipher it now and what she

7 looked at then, that that might be the

8 explanation.

9 So that is why I had asked if you

10 wanted to present her with the actual exhibits;

11 that would, I think, help us be able to look at

12 the same thing.

13 MR. HOFFMAN: I basically want her to

14 be able to see what it is. I am looking for

15 content, not --

16 MR. WOOD: Not comparison with other

17 copies of those from other sources.

18 MR. HOFFMAN: I want her to indicate

19 whether she recognizes the photograph.

20 MR. WOOD: That is fair.

21 THE WITNESS: I think I have seen

22 this photograph before.

23 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Can you identify,

24 without naming anybody in the photograph, can you

25 identify any of the individuals in the photograph?

Page 41

1 A. Just JonBenet.

2 Q. I would like you to now look at the

3 handwriting below the photograph. Do you

4 recognize the handwriting?

5 A. Not particularly.

6 Q. You say "not particularly." You don't

7 recognize this as being your handwriting; is that

8 correct?

9 A. I don't remember writing it. Is that

10 what you mean? I mean, I don't know. I may

11 have, but --

12 Q. Do you recognize the handwriting as

13 being your handwriting?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Okay. Now we are going to go to

16 another exhibit.

17 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-2 was marked for

18 identification.)

19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I

20 would like you to examine a document I have given

21 you that has been labeled Plaintiff's Exhibit 2

22 for identification and ask you if you recognize

23 any of the photographs in the document.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I am going to ask you if you

Page 42

1 recognize any of the handwriting in the document.

2 A. Recognize it as mine or someone else's

3 or just --

4 Q. I will go to the next question. Do

5 you recognize any of the handwriting as being

6 your handwriting?

7 A. Not particularly.

8 Q. So you couldn't say, with any degree

9 of certainty, that that was your handwriting?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. HOFFMAN: Lin, I don't know what

13 you are doing with those.

14 MR. WOOD: You took the last one

15 back.

16 MR. HOFFMAN: Fine. Sorry about

17 this. This is one of the more boring parts of

18 depositions.

19 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-3 was marked for

20 identification.)

21 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Now, Mrs. Ramsey, I

22 am going to ask you to look at Plaintiff's

23 Exhibit 3 marked for identification and ask you

24 whether or not you recognize this document.

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 43

1 Q. What do you recognize it to be?

2 A. An entry form for the Boulder

3 Christmas parade.

4 Q. Have you ever seen this entry form

5 before today?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you tell me when you have seen

8 it, if you remember?

9 A. Well, I obviously saw it to fill it

10 out.

11 Q. Okay. That was my next question.

12 Do you recognize the handwriting in this entry

13 form?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Can you tell me whose handwriting you

16 recognize it to be?

17 A. My handwriting.

18 Q. So all of the handwriting on both

19 pages is your handwriting; is that correct? I

20 mean, no one else --

21 A. Well, this on the second page is

22 pretty blurry, but I believe it is mine.

23 Q. So nobody at this event filled in

24 part of it for you?

25 A. No.

Page 44

1 Q. You filled this in completely

2 yourself; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Now I am going to show you another

5 document which I am going to have the reporter

6 mark as Plaintiff's Exhibit 4 for identification.

7 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-4 was marked for

8 identification.)

9 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Now, Mrs. Ramsey, I

10 am going to ask you to look at a document that

11 I handed you which has been marked Plaintiff's

12 Exhibit 4 for identification. I am going to ask

13 you whether or not you recognize this document.

14 A. No, I don't.

15 Q. I am going to ask you if you

16 recognize the handwriting on the document.

17 A. I recognize my signature.

18 Q. Do you recognize any other written

19 part of the document as being your handwriting?

20 A. It looks similar, but I can't say for

21 sure.

22 Q. So are you uncertain as to whether

23 the additional handwriting is yours or not,

24 outside of the signature?

25 A. I am uncertain.

Page 45

1 Q. Okay. Thank you.

2 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to ask the

3 reporter to mark this as Plaintiff's Exhibit 5

4 for identification.

5 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-5 was marked for

6 identification.)

7 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Now, Mrs. Ramsey, I

8 am going to ask you to look at a document which

9 has been labeled Plaintiff's Exhibit 5 for

10 identification. And I am going to ask you

11 whether or not you recognize it.

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. What do you recognize it to be?

14 A. It looks like a greeting written on

15 the inside of a Christmas card.

16 Q. Do you remember writing a Christmas

17 card like this?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I am going to ask you whether or not

20 you can identify the handwriting.

21 A. Yes, I can.

22 Q. Can you tell me whose handwriting you

23 believe it to be?

24 A. Mine.

25 Q. Thank you very much.

Page 46

1 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to ask the

2 reporter to please mark this document Plaintiff's

3 Exhibit 6 for identification. It is two pages, I

4 believe.

5 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-6 was marked for

6 identification.)

7 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I am going to ask

8 you, Mrs. Ramsey, whether or not you can identify

9 the document that I have handed you, which is

10 marked Plaintiff's Exhibit 6 for identification.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you tell me what the document is?

13 A. It is a handwritten note.

14 Q. Can you identify the handwriting?

15 A. Yes. It is my handwriting.

16 Q. Thank you very much.

17 MR. HOFFMAN: Now I am going to ask

18 the reporter to please mark this as Plaintiff's

19 Exhibit 7 for identification.

20 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-7 was marked for

21 identification.)

22 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I

23 would like to know if you could identify the

24 document or, actually, the image or figure on

25 Plaintiff's Exhibit 7 marked for identification.

Page 47

1 A. No, I can't.

2 Q. I am going to ask you to look at the

3 handwriting and tell me if you can recognize the

4 handwriting.

5 A. This is such a bad copy. Do you

6 have the original?

7 Q. No, I don't. If you can't recognize

8 the handwriting, you simply say you cannot.

9 A. I cannot.

10 Q. Thank you very much.

11 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to ask the

12 court reporter to mark this document Plaintiff's

13 Exhibit 8 for identification.

14 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-8 was marked for

15 identification.)

16 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I am going to

17 direct Mrs. Ramsey's attention to the writing that

18 looks like it is on a box that says "Ramsey

19 Xmas" and also, it looks like, some writing on

20 the lower right-hand side which just says

21 "Ramsey."

22 I am going to ask you to look at

23 that carefully, and I am going to ask her, first

24 of all, if she can identify to the best of her

25 ability what is in this photograph.

Page 48

1 A. It looks like pictures of boxes taken

2 through a window pane.

3 Q. Now, I am going to ask you if you

4 can recognize any of the handwriting.

5 A. This lower one may be mine, but I am

6 not sure.

7 Q. And the upper left, which says,

8 "Ramsey Xmas"?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. So you don't recognize it as being

11 your handwriting?

12 A. Not specifically, no.

13 Q. Thank you. Coming to the end.

14 MR. HOFFMAN: I would like the

15 reporter to mark that as Plaintiff's Exhibit 9

16 for identification.

17 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-9 was marked for

18 identification.)

19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I am

20 going to ask you -- I am not going to even try

21 to ask you what you are looking at. I am going

22 to ask you if you can see any of the handwriting

23 in this document.

24 MR. WOOD: Is that an admission that

25 nobody can even determine what the object is?

Page 49

1 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, the objects would

2 be subject -- one looks like a box on the lower

3 part, but I am not going to ask Mrs. Ramsey to

4 determine it. I am going to ask Mrs. Ramsey if

5 she can make out the handwriting. And if she

6 can, can she, with any degree of certainty, tell

7 me if she recognizes any of the handwriting.

8 THE WITNESS: It is pretty hard to

9 tell.

10 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) You can simply say

11 no or you are not certain.

12 A. No.

13 Q. All right. Thank you.

14 A. If I can see the original, maybe.

15 Q. I understand, but based on this

16 document, you are not able to determine?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Thank you very much.

19 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to ask the

20 reporter to mark this as Plaintiff's Exhibit 10

21 for identification.

22 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-10 was marked for

23 identification.)

24 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, what I

25 am showing you is a series of letters. I am

Page 50

1 not identifying their source. I am just simply

2 showing you a series of letters. I would like

3 you to look at them carefully.

4 Again, this is Plaintiff's Exhibit 10

5 for identification.

6 Can you, without knowing the source or

7 where these letters are from, identify any of

8 them?

9 A. No, sir.

10 Q. Now, I would like you to also look

11 at the letters and ask me if you see any

12 similarities in the way in which these letters

13 are written. And we will just start from the

14 bottom. Looking at the B.

15 A. Ask you if I see any similarities?

16 Q. No. I am going to ask you to

17 comment on whether you see any similarities in

18 the handwriting.

19 MR. WOOD: Let me just ask you,

20 Darnay, Patsy Ramsey is not a questioned document

21 examiner.

22 MR. HOFFMAN: I just want her

23 personal observation.

24 MR. WOOD: We don't know what

25 alterations have been done to these documents. I

Page 51

1 know where these documents came from. They came

2 from one of your experts.

3 MR. HOFFMAN: I would prefer you

4 don't identify the source --

5 MR. WOOD: Why not? She is entitled

6 to be --

7 MR. HOFFMAN: -- for the purpose of

8 this.

9 MR. WOOD: We are not here to play

10 games.

11 MR. HOFFMAN: No, no.

12 MR. WOOD: Let me finish, Darnay.

13 MR. HOFFMAN: Mr. Wood --

14 MR. WOOD: Let me finish, please.

15 MR. HOFFMAN: Mr. Wood, you can't

16 have a standing objection where you basically

17 counsel, give information to your client in your

18 objection, which is what you are doing right now.

19 I would like you to stop it.

20 MR. WOOD: Darnay.

21 MR. HOFFMAN: I have a right to show

22 her a document. For all you know, I am trying

23 to test her perception. You don't know what I

24 am doing in this.

25 MR. WOOD: Her perception --

Page 52

1 MR. HOFFMAN: I am not saying that

2 this means anything. I am asking her to look at

3 these letters, ask her if she recognizes any of

4 them, and then after doing that, asking her if

5 she can perceive any similarities in these

6 letters. That is all. Just as a lay person,

7 her personal observation. And I have a right to

8 do that. And I am going to ask her to do it.

9 MR. WOOD: I am not --

10 MR. HOFFMAN: I don't have to

11 identify the source. This could be an eye chart,

12 for all you know.

13 MR. WOOD: Darnay --

14 MR. HOFFMAN: For all you know, I am

15 testing her perception.

16 MR. WOOD: Darnay, it is not an eye

17 chart. It is a document that you --

18 MR. HOFFMAN: No, it is not. Don't

19 identify the document, Mr. Wood.

20 MR. WOOD: Are you going to let me

21 finish, Darnay?

22 MR. HOFFMAN: Not if you are going

23 to identify --

24 MR. WOOD: Let's take a break.

25 MR. HOFFMAN: Not if you are going

Page 53

1 to have a standing objection.

2 MR. WOOD: We are going to take a

3 break now, and then I'll come back. And when I

4 get a chance to make my statement on the record

5 to perfect the record, we will start again. But

6 if are you not going to give me that fundamental

7 right, then we are not going to start again,

8 Darnay. Do you understand me? Because you are

9 not the judge.

10 MR. HOFFMAN: If you want to stop

11 the deposition --

12 MR. WOOD: Let me finish.

13 MR. HOFFMAN: If you want to stop

14 the --

15 MR. WOOD: If you don't stop

16 interrupting me, we are going to have to stop.

17 MR. HOFFMAN: I have to interrupt you

18 if you are, in fact, going to give your client

19 information that you are not supposed to give

20 your client while I am asking her a specific

21 question, which is what you are trying to do

22 right now, at least in my opinion.

23 MR. WOOD: No, I am not.

24 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes, you are.

25 MR. WOOD: You don't know what I am

Page 54

1 trying to do, because you won't let me do it.

2 MR. HOFFMAN: You are trying to

3 identify the source of this, and I don't want you

4 to do that for the purposes of this question.

5 MR. WOOD: We are going to take a

6 break now, and when I have the ability to make

7 my record without interruption and instruction

8 from you --

9 MR. HOFFMAN: I would like you to

10 make the colloquy.

11 MR. WOOD: You are not going to stop

12 interrupting; are you?

13 MR. HOFFMAN: I am not going to

14 basically let you give your client information in

15 a standing objection.

16 MR. WOOD: Darnay, Darnay, if I make

17 a statement on the record that is inappropriate,

18 you may take that up with Judge Carnes, and Judge

19 Carnes can determine whether I have

20 inappropriately instructed my client through an

21 objection. But you are not the judge, and you

22 are not going to make that decision today. You

23 have the right to say what you want to on this

24 record. I have that right, also.

25 So when you decide that we are going

Page 55

1 to play on that level playing field, let's get

2 started again. But you are not going to sit

3 here and be the judge and tell me what I am

4 going to do or not do, whether you like it or

5 agree with it or not.

6 MR. HOFFMAN: Mr. Wood --

7 MR. WOOD: So we are now going to go

8 off the record and take a break.

9 MR. HOFFMAN: Mr. Wood, for the

10 purposes of -- before we go off the record and

11 take a break, I foresaw this as a possible

12 stumbling block or speed bump, and as a result,

13 Evan Altman was kind enough to call Judge Carnes'

14 office, and she is willing, in a phone call, to

15 make an immediate ruling on whether or not what I

16 am asking Mrs. Ramsey to do is proper and whether

17 or not your objection is proper. She is in her

18 office. She is available for an immediate

19 conference.

20 MR. WOOD: I have not been allowed

21 to make my statement. And if we want to address

22 with Judge Carnes at this point --

23 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes.

24 MR. WOOD: Excuse me. If the issue

25 to be addressed with Judge Carnes is whether I am

Page 56

1 allowed to make an objection without interruption

2 from you, then I will be happy to take that up

3 with Judge Carnes.

4 If we are going to take up an

5 objection of mine with Judge Carnes, I think I

6 fairly ought to have the right to state it on

7 the record.

8 MR. HOFFMAN: But I would like you

9 to make the statement to Judge Carnes before you

10 make a statement in front of your client on the

11 record basically notifying your client of

12 precisely what it is that I am doing with respect

13 to this, which I don't want you to do.

14 MR. WOOD: I don't know what you are

15 doing with this. I am not trying to make a

16 representation of that.

17 MR. HOFFMAN: Let's talk to Judge

18 Carnes. Because we went through enough trouble

19 to establish, to call her office yesterday and

20 see if she was available for a conference,

21 because I foresaw this problem precisely coming

22 up.

23 MR. WOOD: I yet to understand what

24 you want to take up with Judge Carnes.

25 MR. HOFFMAN: Let's call her. I

Page 57

1 will tell her. Quite frankly, I am going to ask

2 her whether or not -- I am going to have you

3 state your objection that you are going to give

4 on the record to her on the phone, and we are

5 going to find out whether or not she thinks it

6 is proper for you to make that objection.

7 And then if she rules it is proper

8 to make it in that form, you can make it in

9 that form.

10 MR. WOOD: So you want me to state

11 my objection for the first time on the phone with

12 Judge Carnes?

13 MR. HOFFMAN: That is correct.

14 MR. WOOD: So you are going to call

15 Judge Carnes -- excuse me.

16 You are going to call Judge Carnes to

17 address with her an objection that you think is

18 inappropriate that I haven't even been allowed to

19 make yet?

20 MR. HOFFMAN: No. You started to

21 make it, and it was clear from your making it

22 what you were trying to do, which is basically

23 make the equivalent of a standing -- you were

24 trying to give your client information improperly

25 in order to influence her answer.

Page 58

1 MR. WOOD: That is just pure bunk,

2 Darnay.

3 MR. HOFFMAN: Sorry, but that is what

4 I see it to be. That is why we have Judge

5 Carnes waiting by the phone for us.

6 MR. WOOD: If you have an issue to

7 take up with Judge Carnes, you have a right to

8 do whatever you want to do. I don't have an

9 issue with Judge Carnes yet.

10 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, you may have it

11 if you don't get on the phone with us and talk

12 to her.

13 MR. WOOD: I am going to participate.

14 I am not going to allow you to ex parte a

15 conversation with Judge Carnes.

16 MR. HOFFMAN: No judge would allow an

17 ex parte communication. You know better than

18 that.

19 MR. WOOD: Why don't we define, so

20 we can read the record to her, exactly what the

21 controversy is at the moment because I still

22 don't understand it because I haven't been allowed

23 to state an objection. I might not even have an

24 objection.

25 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, in fact, I would

Page 59

1 like you to read back what you were about to

2 state as an objection, in fact.

3 MR. WOOD: Okay. I started off and

4 said -- you said, the question to Ms. Ramsey:

5 "I am going to ask you to comment on

6 whether you see any similarities in the

7 handwriting, and that is on this Exhibit 10,

8 without identifying it for her."

9 And I said: "Let me just ask you,

10 Darnay, Patsy Ramsey is not a questioned document

11 examiner.

12 "Mr. Hoffman: I just want her

13 personal observation.

14 "Mr. Wood: We don't know what

15 alterations have been done to these documents. I

16 know where these documents came from. They came

17 from one of your excerpts.

18 "Mr. Hoffman:" --

19 MR. HOFFMAN: That is the point at

20 which you are starting to give her information.

21 MR. WOOD: Excuse me.

22 "Mr. Hoffman: I would prefer you

23 don't identify the source.

24 "Mr. Wood: Why not? She is

25 entitled to," and then you interrupted, and I

Page 60

1 don't think we ever got any further.

2 MR. HOFFMAN: This is the area

3 that --

4 MR. WOOD: So the question is whether

5 or not, when you give her a document, is she

6 entitled to know the source of the document

7 before she answers questions about it --


9 MR. WOOD: -- let's put that issue

10 before Judge Carnes.

11 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. Yup.

12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the

13 video record.

14 MR. HOFFMAN: We are going to read

15 that statement. That is what I am objecting to,

16 what you are doing there. So we will read that

17 to Judge Carnes.

18 MR. WOOD: I think I understand what

19 we want to do with Judge Carnes, and that is to

20 ask her, when you question her about a document,

21 if she is entitled to know what the document is.

22 MR. HOFFMAN: No. A particular type

23 of document. Okay? Not all documents.

24 MR. WOOD: She is entitled to know

25 what the document is.

Page 61

1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the

2 video record at 10:24.

3 MR. HOFFMAN: And I would like to

4 have this colloquy with the judge so that we

5 don't, basically, just sort of undermine the whole

6 purpose of this, which is to keep you from giving

7 information to your client. If your client is

8 present during this colloquy, it defeats the whole

9 purpose. Okay.

10 MR. WOOD: Darnay, I don't know what

11 you are up to, and the game here --

12 MR. HOFFMAN: It is not a game, Mr.

13 Wood.

14 MR. WOOD: It is not a game. I

15 think if you put a document in front of my

16 client, she is entitled to know what --

17 MR. HOFFMAN: This is what the

18 document is. It is a series of letters. Any

19 person can see what this is.

20 MR. WOOD: It is a series of letters

21 that is --

22 MR. HOFFMAN: That is all. I asked

23 her to look at it, asked her if she recognized

24 any of it, and then I asked her if she could

25 make any comment on whether she recognizes any

Page 62

1 similarities in the lettering of it.

2 That is all. It is a very simple

3 thing. I don't have to identify the source or

4 anything else.

5 MR. WOOD: Let me address this issue

6 with Mr. Rawls off the record, and we will come

7 back and see if we can solve the problem in a

8 different fashion.

9 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay.

10 (A recess was taken.)

11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the

12 video record at 10:33.

13 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I am

14 going to show you a document that has been marked

15 Plaintiff's Exhibit 10 for identification. And I

16 would like you to look at the document. Please

17 look at it carefully.

18 What you -- this document, for the

19 record, contains eight letters that are side by

20 side vertically on the page. The letter D, what

21 looks like the letter S, what looks like letters

22 R and O, what looks like an N, what looks like

23 an O, what looks like an exclamation point, what

24 looks like a G, and what looks like a B.

25 I am going to ask you, Mrs. Ramsey,

Page 63

1 if you can identify any of these letters as being

2 your handwriting.

3 A. No, sir.

4 Q. Now I am going to ask you to look at

5 these letters and tell me -- in fact, I withdraw

6 the question.

7 I would like you to look at the

8 lower letter B, what looks like could be a letter

9 B at the bottom.

10 MR. WOOD: Left or right? There is

11 a mark with some sort of funny mark over it.

12 MR. HOFFMAN: That looks like a

13 little hat.

14 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Those letters, for

15 the purposes of this discussion, look like they

16 might be the letter B. I am going to ask you

17 whether you see any similarity in the two

18 letters, any visual similarity, you as a lay

19 person, not as an expert, just looking at it

20 visually, do you see any similarities?

21 MR. WOOD: And if I might have my

22 objection for the record --

23 MR. HOFFMAN: Sure, at this point

24 please.

25 MR. WOOD: -- is simply that I

Page 64

1 object to the form of the question. I do not

2 believe it is appropriate to ask a lay person a

3 question that goes to what you might believe to

4 be a question document issue from an expert,

5 particularly when you have not identified the

6 source of the writings before the witness, you

7 have not identified in answer whether these

8 documents have been in any way altered, blown up,

9 enlarged, positioned differently. So I object to

10 the form of the question for those reasons.

11 You may answer the question.

12 MR. HOFFMAN: Also, for the purposes,

13 I would like to state that this answer would not

14 be used for any evidentiary purpose, realizing

15 that there is no proper foundation as to source,

16 as to how these letters came to be what they

17 are. But I will just say one thing for the

18 record, that lay people are, under Article 9 of

19 the Federal Rules of Evidence, are occasionally

20 allowed to identify handwriting as lay people.

21 Frequently, letters are shown to lay

22 people, and they are allowed to authenticate

23 handwriting to that degree, if they have

24 familiarity, which is one of the reasons why

25 I asked you if you were familiar with any of

Page 65

1 the letters.

2 MR. WOOD: And I did not object when

3 you asked her whether she believed that to be her

4 handwriting.

5 MR. HOFFMAN: That is all I am

6 asking.

7 MR. WOOD: But now you are asking

8 her whether there is similarity from a lay

9 perspective, and I will accept your stipulation

10 that you will not use that answer for any

11 evidentiary purpose.

12 And with that stipulation, you may

13 answer the question.

14 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I would like you

15 to look at the letter B and tell me if those Bs

16 look at all similar to you.

17 A. Well, they are both lower case Bs.

18 Q. Is there anything about the Bs that

19 to you looks similar beside the fact they are

20 lower case? The way they are drawn?

21 A. No, not particularly.

22 Q. I am going to ask you to look above

23 the letter that we identified as being B at what

24 looks like it could be a G. I am going to ask

25 you to look at the G. I am going to ask you

Page 66

1 whether you see any similarities between the Gs

2 and what those similarities are.

3 MR. WOOD: Same stipulation?

4 MR. HOFFMAN: Same stipulation.

5 THE WITNESS: Well, they are both

6 lower case G. They are both more of the same

7 size than the Bs are.

8 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Is there anything

9 -- what about the way in which what looks like

10 could be described as a tail with the G, is

11 there any similarity with respect to that?

12 A. It swings to the left.

13 Q. Do they look similar, the tails to

14 the G?

15 A. Somewhat. I mean, a G, you make a G

16 with the tail to the left. Is that what you

17 mean?

18 Q. Those look similar, like similar

19 tails?

20 MR. WOOD: You are talking about --

21 well, again, I think she answered your question.

22 THE WITNESS: One is squiggly, and

23 one is smoother. But, I mean, it depends on how

24 many things you want to --

25 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Just looking for

Page 67

1 whatever points of similarity that you, as a lay

2 person --

3 A. I would say they are both similar in

4 size.

5 MR. WOOD: Or dissimilar, in fairness.

6 MR. HOFFMAN: Or dissimilar.

7 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) You can make

8 whatever visual observations you want about it.

9 I simply want your reaction.

10 A. The one on the right is more shaky,

11 it looks like.

12 Q. What about the one on the left?

13 A. It is not as shaky. And the one on

14 the right has a little swoop up on the tail, and

15 the one on the left does not.

16 The one on the left has a thicker

17 circle for the part of the G than the one on

18 the right.

19 Q. Now I am going to ask you to --

20 before I -- withdraw that question.

21 Do you have any other observations,

22 similarities or dissimilarities, that you would

23 like to express?

24 A. No.

25 Q. I am going to ask you to look to

Page 68

1 what looks like exclamation points, and I am

2 going to ask you if you see any points of

3 similarity or dissimilarity.

4 MR. WOOD: Same stipulation?

5 MR. HOFFMAN: Same stipulation.

6 MR. WOOD: Thank you.

7 THE WITNESS: One is thick. One is

8 thin. One has a bigger dot than the other.

9 That is fat. That is little.

10 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Anything about the

11 slope or angle or anything else that is similar

12 or dissimilar?

13 A. I don't know what "slope or angle"

14 means.

15 Q. The way in which it is going up and

16 down.

17 A. Well, that is how you make an

18 exclamation point is straight down with a dot

19 under it.

20 Q. Do they look similar or dissimilar

21 with respect to how vertical they are?

22 A. Well, the one on the left is

23 squigglier and leans at the top a little bit.

24 Q. Any other similarities or

25 dissimilarities, before I move to the next one?

Page 69

1 A. I don't think they look alike.

2 Q. The next object or letters look like

3 they might be Os, the letter O. Or they could

4 be a zero from a number. But in any case, a

5 zero or an O.

6 MR. WOOD: Or it could be even an

7 attempt to make a Q.

8 MR. HOFFMAN: Could be.

9 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) But you can

10 identify it any way you would like, Mrs. Ramsey.

11 And please point out any similarities or

12 dissimilarities that you see.

13 MR. HOFFMAN: And, Mr. Wood, the same

14 stipulation.

15 MR. WOOD: Same stipulation. Thank

16 you.

17 THE WITNESS: I don't think they look

18 a thing alike.

19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) So you would say

20 they are just dissimilar. Would you point out

21 their dissimilarities?

22 A. The dissimilarities?

23 Q. Yes. The dissimilarities.

24 A. One is large. One is small. One is

25 really heavy and feathered, kind of, and one is

Page 70

1 smoother.

2 Q. Any other similarities or

3 dissimilarities before I move on that you would

4 like to make?

5 A. They both have an opening in the

6 middle.

7 Q. All right. The hole in the doughnut?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I would like you to look up to the

10 next letter. Now, that can be an N. That

11 could be a truncated R. It is hard to say. I

12 would like you to look at that and just tell me

13 what similarities or dissimilarities you see

14 between the two.

15 MR. WOOD: It could be an N, too.

16 THE WITNESS: It could be a pi.

17 MR. HOFFMAN: Could be. For all we

18 know, it is a little horse or something that is

19 truncated, or poodle, actually.

20 THE WITNESS: A poodle?

21 MR. HOFFMAN: One of those show

22 poodles.

23 MR. WOOD: I am not seeing the

24 poodle here, Darnay.

25 THE WITNESS: This is a psych test.

Page 71

1 MR. HOFFMAN: Rorschach for attorneys.

2 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) If you could, look

3 at that, those two letters.

4 MR. HOFFMAN: With the same -- Lin,

5 what is it, the same stip?

6 MR. WOOD: Same stipulation.

7 THE WITNESS: One is shorter than the

8 other one. The one on the right is shorter than

9 the one on the left. The one on the left has

10 like a little triangle thing over the top of it.

11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I want to draw

12 your attention to the fact that they seem to

13 merge. There seems to be -- whatever it is, it

14 seems like one thing is running into another, or

15 there is something hanging off of it. It is an

16 awkward looking letter. It could be an R and an

17 O. It could be any other number of

18 configurations.

19 A. Which one are we looking at? Are

20 you looking at this one?

21 Q. Oh, no. I am sorry. Are we still

22 at the poodle? I thought we were going to

23 move on after the poodle.

24 MR. WOOD: I thought we were still

25 at the poodle.

Page 72

1 THE WITNESS: I never saw a poodle,

2 for the record.

3 MR. WOOD: Neither did I. That is

4 why I am staying there.

5 MR. HOFFMAN: Not going to go there;

6 right?

7 THE WITNESS: So you are at the

8 third one down now?

9 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Before I finish

10 that, I want to give you the opportunity, do you

11 have any other observation between similarity or

12 dissimilarity between the --

13 A. The little pi one?

14 Q. Yeah, the little pi.

15 A. I mean pi, like a Greek letter pi,

16 pi R squared.

17 Q. Now we will move to the next

18 configuration, whatever that is. I see it as an

19 R and an O, but that is just the way I look at

20 it. I would like you to tell me what you see

21 and similarities and dissimilarities between the

22 letter.

23 MR. WOOD: Same stip?

24 MR. HOFFMAN: Same stip.

25 THE WITNESS: I just -- that doesn't

Page 73

1 look like anything in the alphabet that I have

2 ever seen. I mean, it doesn't look like a

3 letter to me.

4 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Okay. Fair enough.

5 Any specific dissimilarities besides it

6 just doesn't look like a letter between the two

7 non --

8 A. Well, the one on the right seems to

9 be heavier and has a little piece sticking out

10 the left side. And the one on the left has a

11 little bird over the top of it or something mark.

12 Q. All right.

13 A. It looks like they were made with

14 different weights of pencil or something.

15 Q. If you have no further observations,

16 we will move to the next letter, what looks like

17 it could be an S.

18 A. Or it looks like it could be a 5.

19 Q. It could be a 5, too. Any

20 similarities or dissimilarities between the two?

21 A. The one on the left is larger than

22 the one on the right. The one on the right

23 looks more like an S than the one on the left.

24 The one on the left is more circular, kind of,

25 on the bottom. The one on the right is -- the

Page 74

1 bottom portion looks more angular.

2 MR. WOOD: We have the same stip on

3 this?

4 MR. HOFFMAN: Same stipulations.

5 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Any other

6 observations of either similarities or

7 dissimilarities before I move on, Mrs. Ramsey?

8 A. No.

9 Q. I will ask you to look at the top

10 and final one, what I would identify as a D, but

11 that doesn't mean it is a D. I would like you

12 to look at that and tell me what similarities or

13 dissimilarities that you see there.

14 MR. HOFFMAN: And, Lin, of course, we

15 have the same stip.

16 MR. WOOD: Thank you.

17 THE WITNESS: The left one looks like

18 an A to me, and the right one looks like a D.

19 It looks like maybe a shaky or older person might

20 have written it. Kind of squiggly.

21 This one has a higher -- the one on

22 the right has a higher stick on the side than

23 the one on the left.

24 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Right.

25 A. And the open space, the doughnut hole

Page 75

1 is bigger on the one on the right than the left.

2 I don't think they look alike.

3 Q. Okay. Fair enough.

4 A. They look like two different letters

5 to me.

6 Q. Thank you for putting up with that

7 exercise.

8 MR. HOFFMAN: And, Mr. Wood, thank

9 you also.

10 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) You remember earlier

11 I had you read about the handwriting from your

12 book. And I would say that maybe we both concede

13 that the handwriting is an important part of the

14 evidence in this crime.

15 MR. WOOD: She can speak for herself,

16 but we are not going to have her speaking for

17 you. Concessions are one thing. She has answered

18 your questions about that with respect to her

19 belief.

20 MR. HOFFMAN: I am just using that

21 foundationally to move on --

22 MR. LIN: That's okay. I wanted to

23 make sure.

24 MR. HOFFMAN: -- to move on so that

25 there is no question why I am moving into a

Page 76

1 particular area.

2 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) It goes to the

3 issue of why Mr. Wolf is here in this lawsuit

4 with respect to some elements of it, why in the

5 complaint there is what may appear to you to be

6 an extremely unfair accusation or representation

7 of you as author of the ransom note, as the

8 person who killed her daughter, or whatever.

9 And a lot of this is to try and

10 determine the degree to which the handwriting

11 experts that Mr. Wolf is using in this case can

12 accurately determine whether you are, in fact, the

13 author of the ransom note or not, which is part

14 of why we have been doing this.

15 I just want to show you something

16 that is -- I just want you to look at it. It,

17 again, is why, so to speak, why --

18 I would like you to mark this as

19 Plaintiff's Exhibit 11. I am going to show this.

20 Now, I am not making any

21 representations in this document as to whether, in

22 fact, its submission means anything other than

23 this was prepared by two handwriting experts.

24 This document is not being submitted to prove the

25 truth of anything in the document.

Page 77

1 So if you could, mark that.

2 Lin, we will stipulate to that effect.

3 Would you mark this document, please,

4 as Plaintiff's Exhibit 11.

5 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-11 was marked for

6 identification.)

7 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Now, Mrs. Ramsey, I

8 am going to tell you that that document, along

9 with reports, handwriting reports, were prepared

10 by document examiners Cina Wong and David Leadman.

11 And other handwriting was prepared -- other

12 handwriting was used in the form of the police

13 exemplars that were given to my office by Mr.

14 Wood pursuant to discovery requests.

15 And those documents are, without a

16 doubt, your handwriting because they were

17 identified by Mr. Wood as being the handwriting

18 exemplars that you personally gave to law

19 enforcement in Colorado at their request during

20 that five-day period.

21 Now, the problem for Mr. Wolf in this

22 case is the fact that not one of the experts --

23 Cina Wong, David Leadman, an expert known as

24 Gideon Epstein, Larry F. Siegler, and an expert

25 known as Don Lacey have all identified you as the

Page 78

1 ransom note writer. It is not a close call, as

2 far as they are concerned. They have identified

3 you. One of them, in fact, said, without doubt

4 you are the author of the ransom note.

5 So in order to be certain that they

6 are, in fact, correct in what they are looking at

7 as examples of your handwriting, I wanted you to

8 look at some of the documents that I gave you.

9 Now I want you to look at the document there and

10 see why, in fact, this, the issue of your

11 authorship, is such a problem.

12 MR. WOOD: Do you have a question?

13 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes.

14 MR. WOOD: Let's ask the question.

15 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Okay. Mrs. Ramsey,

16 did you write the ransom note?

17 MR. WOOD: Before you answer that, I

18 want to object to the form of the question. And

19 I want to specifically object to each and every

20 one of the prefatory comments with respect to

21 that question which started off a long time ago,

22 where you said: "-- to move on, so there was no

23 question why I am moving into a particular area."

24 "By Mr. Hoffman: It goes to the

25 issue of why Mr. Wolf is here in this lawsuit"

Page 79

1 -- beginning at that point down through and

2 including everything except for your stipulation,

3 which we will accept.

4 I want to move to strike all of the

5 prefatory comments from that beginning down

6 through where you said and ended, "Now I want you

7 to look at the document there and see why, in

8 fact, this, the question of your authorship, I

9 believe, is a problem."

10 All of those are improper as to form.

11 I move to strike each and every one of them with

12 the exception of your stipulation. I also want

13 to tell you that I was very courteous in letting

14 you sit here and, in effect, lecture my client.

15 That is your one and only lecture, Mr. Hoffman.

16 You are here to ask questions.

17 Now, your question, as I understand

18 it, if you would like to restate it, is, Did

19 Patsy Ramsey write the ransom note. Is that the

20 question?

21 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes, it is.

22 MR. WOOD: Why don't you restate that

23 because I don't think the other question isn't

24 worth the paper it is written on or the time you

25 have taken up to ask it because it is totally

Page 80

1 improper as to its form.

2 Now, ask her a question.

3 MR. HOFFMAN: First of all, I am

4 going to respond to your ad hominem attack.

5 MR. WOOD: It is not an ad hominem

6 attack.

7 MR. HOFFMAN: It is an ad hominem

8 attack, and it is done for the purposes

9 grandstanding, which, you know, seems to be the

10 way you are operating, sir.

11 MR. LIN: Take that up with Judge

12 Carnes. Why don't you just ask your question.

13 MR. HOFFMAN: No. I am going to

14 respond to your ad hominem colloquy, which was,

15 in effect, an attack on me.

16 I was not lecturing Mrs. Ramsey.

17 And, Mrs. Ramsey, I apologize if I --

18 MR. WOOD: You don't have to respond

19 to that.

20 Do you have a question?

21 MR. HOFFMAN: No, Mr. Wood. I am

22 going to respond to your ad hominem attack, which

23 is what I consider it to be.

24 The fact is, I was not lecturing Mrs.

25 Ramsey. I was explaining to Mrs. Ramsey,

Page 81

1 prefatory to asking her a question which could be

2 regarded as very insensitive, which is simply, Did

3 you write the ransom note?, as to why I was

4 asking that question.

5 And, quite frankly, I don't think it

6 was improper of me to show a certain sensitivity

7 to a mother whose daughter has died rather

8 brutally.

9 MR. WOOD: Darnay, Darnay, you have

10 not shown this family any sensitivity since March

11 of 1997.

12 MR. HOFFMAN: That's not --

13 MR. WOOD: Let me stop you here.

14 MR. HOFFMAN: That's not before --

15 MR. WOOD: Let me stop you here.

16 No, sir. Let me stop you here.

17 I am not going to sit here and have

18 you go back and forth and talk with my client or

19 lecture my client. You are here under the

20 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure to ask questions.

21 I have the right to make an objection. If you

22 deem my objection to be an ad hominem attack,

23 take it up with Judge Carnes.

24 MR. HOFFMAN: Same here.

25 MR. WOOD: I believe my objection is

Page 82

1 100 percent good.

2 Now, ask your question, let's get

3 answers, and let's move on. We don't need the

4 back-and-forth every time I make an objection.

5 Okay. Please, let's get going.

6 MR. HOFFMAN: You are responsible, to

7 some degree, for the back-and-forth.

8 Quite frankly, under the Federal

9 Rules, I don't think you have the right to

10 interfere and try to control my deposition.

11 MR. WOOD: I have the right to make

12 an objection, I did make an objection, and I

13 asked you to state your question.

14 MR. HOFFMAN: But not an attack on

15 counsel, which is, in fact, what this was. This

16 was an ad hominem attack. You characterized what

17 I was doing with your client as lecturing her.

18 MR. WOOD: I think the record will

19 speak for itself.

20 MR. HOFFMAN: And also, I think you

21 spoke outside of anything that was going on here,

22 which was to conduct that you considered to be

23 improper on my part outside of this deposition.

24 MR. WOOD: I don't know what you are

25 talking about now.

Page 83

1 MR. HOFFMAN: You just made a

2 reference -- you can read it back -- to my lack

3 of sensitivity to the Ramsey family in general.

4 MR. WOOD: You are the one making

5 representations on the record about being

6 concerned.

7 MR. HOFFMAN: No. I am not making

8 representations. I am explaining.

9 MR. WOOD: You are wasting all of

10 our time now.

11 MR. HOFFMAN: No. This is my time.

12 MR. WOOD: Okay. If you want to

13 waste it.

14 MR. HOFFMAN: This is my deposition

15 time, and I am going to make a record responding

16 to your ad hominem attack on counsel.

17 MR. WOOD: Why don't you go ahead

18 and make that record.

19 MR. HOFFMAN: I just have been making

20 it. I have been making it.

21 MR. WOOD: When you are through, she

22 will come back and she will answer questions.

23 You don't have to sit here and listen

24 to this, Mrs. Ramsey.

25 MR. HOFFMAN: If she doesn't want to,

Page 84

1 that is fine.

2 MR. WOOD: You don't have to. You

3 can take a break, and you can go ahead and make

4 your response. And when you have a question, we

5 will bring her back in here, and we will answer

6 all your questions that are properly formed.

7 MR. HOFFMAN: All right. What we

8 will do is this, I am going to ask Mrs. Ramsey

9 a very simple question.

10 MR. WOOD: Thank you.

11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, did

12 you write the ransom note that was discovered by

13 yourself on December 26, 1996, at your home?

14 A. No, sir, I did not.

15 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. Thank you.

16 Now, at this point, I think we will

17 take a break. I think this would be an

18 appropriate time to take a break. Thank you.

19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the

20 video record at 10:55.

21 (A recess was taken.)

22 MR. HOFFMAN: Just for the purposes

23 of taking up briefly before we left off, I

24 believe Mr. Wood made a motion to strike or will

25 do so with respect to that, and I just want to

Page 85

1 formally say that I would object and I do object

2 to any motion to strike any of the material he

3 referred to earlier. That is all. I simply want

4 to be on record as objecting to that. And that

5 is all.

6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Ready to go on the

7 video record?

8 MR. HOFFMAN: Oh, I want to put that

9 on the video record. Sorry.

10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the

11 video record at 11:07.

12 MR. HOFFMAN: At this point, I would

13 like to move on to another topic area, but just

14 for the purposes of making a record, Mr. Wood

15 earlier in the deposition said that he was going

16 to object to or asked to strike statements that I

17 had made prefatory to a question that I asked

18 Mrs. Ramsey concerning the authorship of the

19 ransom note. And just for the record, I object

20 to any attempt to have that stricken from the

21 record. That is all I want to say with respect

22 to that.

23 Mr. Wood, if you want to add anything

24 to that.

25 MR. WOOD: Next question.

Page 86

1 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Now I am just

2 going to go into -- I am going to ask for some

3 clarification of things that are in the book,

4 things that I didn't understand.

5 I am going to turn your attention to

6 page 378. It is chapter -- in fact, I can let

7 you look at that. There are two statements

8 there. In fact, Mrs. Ramsey, if you will just

9 give me your book, I will just quickly highlight

10 it. I am sorry about not having done this

11 beforehand.

12 All right. I would like you to read

13 the highlighted portions on page 378 in your book

14 "the Death of Innocence." That is the paperback

15 edition.

16 A. "The Boulder grand jury said no to an

17 indictment."

18 Q. And then the next statement that I

19 highlighted.

20 A. "The grand jury's secret decision."

21 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge as

22 to whether or not the grand jury did, in fact,

23 make a decision based on that statement?

24 A. Well, the district attorney, I

25 believe, made a public statement that said there

Page 87

1 would not be an indictment.

2 Q. There is a reference here to the

3 grand jury's secret decision. Do you have any

4 knowledge of a secret decision by the grand jury,

5 any personal knowledge? Are you referring to

6 that?

7 A. Well, I think all of the grand jury

8 information is under wraps or under seal or

9 something.

10 Q. But do you know whether or not the

11 grand jury, in fact, made a decision in your

12 case?

13 A. Just going from what the district

14 attorney said, that there was no indictment.

15 Q. Okay. But this doesn't indicate --

16 the reason I am asking you this question is --

17 withdraw.

18 Is Patrick -- is it Patrick Furman,

19 was he an attorney of yours at one point?

20 A. Yes, he was.

21 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Furman made a

22 statement that was published in the Boulder papers

23 to the effect that there was a rumor that the

24 grand jury had taken a straw poll and had decided

25 not to indict?

Page 88

1 MR. WOOD: Object to the form of the

2 question in that I think you have inadvertently,

3 perhaps, made reference to the wrong lawyer; but

4 if you have a statement to show her, that might

5 be helpful.

6 MR. HOFFMAN: I don't have that

7 statement. I am just asking her if she has

8 heard that.

9 THE WITNESS: I am not aware of a

10 statement by Mr. Furman in the paper.

11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Then I will ask

12 you, by any of your attorneys --

13 A. No, I am not.

14 Q. -- to the effect that the grand jury

15 -- that there was a rumor that the grand jury

16 had taken a secret straw poll and had decided or

17 voted not to indict?

18 MR. WOOD: You are talking about

19 public statements, not anything attorneys may have

20 said to her?

21 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) No. No attorney.

22 I don't want you to reveal anything that is an

23 attorney/client.

24 A. No, I am not aware of any such

25 statement.

Page 89

1 Q. So the statement "The grand jury's

2 secret decision" is not referring to any personal

3 knowledge that you have about what went on in the

4 grand jury room with respect to any decision to

5 indict or not indict; is that correct?

6 A. I think that adjective was used just

7 referring to grand jury as a whole does

8 everything behind closed doors.

9 Q. So it is just a figure of speech; is

10 that correct?

11 A. Actually, I did not write this

12 section. John wrote this. So you might want to

13 ask him that question.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you.

15 Now, there is an incident in the book

16 on page 191 which you might remember. It is

17 fairly lengthy. I just want you to review it.

18 I am not asking you to read it. It involves

19 the alarm system that apparently failed when you

20 came home. I think you were in your home in

21 Charlevoix. Is that it?

22 It is the next-to-last paragraph on

23 191. If you could, just look at that to refresh

24 your memory generally.

25 A. Where it says, "John put in an alarm

Page 90

1 system"?

2 Q. System, yes.

3 MR. WOOD: And you can read anything

4 you need to to put that into context.

5 MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah.


7 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Do you remember

8 that incident?

9 A. About putting the alarm system in?

10 Q. No. That incident where -- no.

11 Your feelings with respect to security and

12 whatever. It is not an incident.

13 I am going to refer to another part

14 of the book in a minute. Just simply your state

15 of mind in security systems.

16 A. I guess I am unclear about what you

17 are asking me.

18 Q. What I am going to ask you is this:

19 Do you know whether or not -- first of all, when

20 you were living in Boulder at the time of the

21 death of your daughter, did you have a security

22 system in your home?

23 A. Yes, we did.

24 Q. Was that a security system that you

25 used at the time you went out that night,

Page 91

1 December 25th, as you would explain it in your

2 book? When you went out visiting people, did you

3 have the security alarm on that night?

4 A. No, we did not.

5 Q. When you moved to Atlanta, did you

6 install a security system in your homes, any of

7 them?

8 A. Yes, we did.

9 Q. Did you have a security system in the

10 home that has been identified as the Atlanta --

11 not mansion, but that -- I don't have the

12 address. The house where John was assaulted in

13 May of, I think it was, 2001. Do you know if

14 there was a security alarm in that facility, that

15 home, in Atlanta?

16 A. There was. When we moved in, we

17 installed a very elaborate security system. And

18 subsequent to that, we had some extensive

19 remodeling done, and the security system was

20 dismantled and was subsequently reinstalled.

21 Q. Who was in charge of, in Boulder,

22 with turning the security system on or off? Was

23 that you or was that John, normally?

24 A. We normally did not use the security

25 system in Boulder.

Page 92

1 Q. Why was that?

2 A. Because we felt safe in Boulder.

3 Q. In Atlanta, I believe the security

4 system was not on when John was assaulted. Do

5 you know if that was true or not?

6 A. I don't believe that it was on.

7 Q. Do you know why it wasn't on?

8 A. I don't know why it wasn't on.

9 Q. Were you concerned that it hadn't been

10 left on?

11 MR. WOOD: You are assuming it was

12 not dismantled at that time?

13 MR. HOFFMAN: I actually ought to go

14 back to that, because you did mention

15 "dismantling."

16 MR. WOOD: I am trying to be lenient

17 with you. We have had a few back-and-forths,

18 Darnay, but I have a lot of trouble understanding

19 what this has to do with Chris Wolf and the

20 allegations in his claim or the defenses to this

21 case.

22 MR. HOFFMAN: Do you want me to

23 explain?

24 MR. WOOD: If you feel like you need

25 to, it might be helpful.

Page 93

1 MR. HOFFMAN: Fine. Oftentimes, a

2 jury or a trier of fact, as the case may be, is

3 allowed to consider something other than forensic

4 evidence in determining whether somebody is

5 involved in a crime or not, or just in any

6 event. And sometimes it is the demeanor of the

7 witness on the stand, whether a witness is, in

8 fact, telling the truth or not telling the truth,

9 or whether there are inconsistencies in the story

10 which are such that a jury would have a right to

11 draw what we call an inference; and from that

12 inference, what we call consciousness of guilt.

13 So the theory is that, if a person

14 is thought to be not telling the truth or just

15 simply the story is so implausible or inconsistent

16 that it indicates that there is a consciousness

17 of guilt, which a jury can use, at least in a

18 criminal case, to determine guilt or innocence, it

19 can be an element in it.

20 MR. WOOD: Talk to me.

21 MR. HOFFMAN: I hope I am stating

22 the law correctly. And that is one of the areas

23 I am going into in the deposition for the purpose

24 -- depositions, from what I understand, Lin, from

25 the federal rules, allow you to go into areas

Page 94

1 where you might be able to impeach a witness

2 later on. And so sometimes the questions don't

3 appear to be relevant except for the impeachment

4 purposes.

5 So that is one of the reasons why I

6 am going into this area.

7 MR. WOOD: Well, I am not going to

8 make a statement about whether I agree or

9 disagree with your statement of the law. It is

10 your right to make that statement. I understand

11 impeachment. I understand that it has to go to

12 a relevant and material issue.

13 I have grave doubts about whether an

14 incident in 2001 that occurred in the Ramseys'

15 home here where Mr. Ramsey was assaulted when he

16 got in and found someone that had broken in and

17 stolen a number of items from his home has

18 anything whatsoever to do, from a relevancy

19 standpoint or from an impeachment standpoint, with

20 the issues raised in Chris Wolf's libel lawsuit.

21 But I am going to let her answer the

22 question because I don't think it is -- you know,

23 it is one of those things we don't need to come

24 back and do later.

25 You can get the answer, but I just

Page 95

1 think that -- you know, just keep in mind that I

2 think you are pushing the envelope here, if not

3 going beyond it.

4 MR. HOFFMAN: For the purposes in

5 case you raise an objection, I will just simply

6 explain --

7 MR. WOOD: I will let her answer.

8 You do what you got to do.

9 MR. HOFFMAN: -- briefly why I am

10 doing this, and what it is about the security

11 system that I find intriguing in this case. And

12 it is the fact that there were concerns expressed

13 in the book about the security of the Ramsey

14 family and the fact that the Ramsey family felt

15 insecure.

16 And, naturally, one of the areas that

17 you would think would concern a family is the

18 fact that a night when their daughter had been

19 murdered, the security system had not been

20 working. And if there was any --

21 THE WITNESS: I believe in the

22 book --

23 MR. WOOD: No. Hold on.

24 This is where we don't need to go.

25 The security system was not turned on. And I

Page 96

1 think if you are familiar with the book, they

2 made it very clear why they didn't use it in

3 Boulder.

4 MR. HOFFMAN: Right.

5 MR. WOOD: The point is, you are

6 asking about an incident that occurred, you say,

7 in 2001 where Mr. Ramsey came home while his

8 house was under renovation with construction

9 workers there and found someone in his home

10 stealing items, and there was a physical

11 altercation. And you are asking about the

12 security system here in 2001.

13 And I am just simply letting you

14 know, Darnay, I am going to let her answer

15 questions about that, but I think you are over

16 the line on relevancy to the claims and defenses

17 in this case. But I am trying to be lenient

18 because I want you to have the opportunity to

19 push the envelope out, but I would just ask you

20 to keep in mind that we are stretching this, in

21 my view, and I would ask you to --

22 MR. HOFFMAN: I am trying to --

23 MR. WOOD: No explanations are needed.

24 Your theory of the case is not needed. Just ask

25 the question, and I am going to let her answer.

Page 97

1 MR. HOFFMAN: I am just trying to

2 enlarge the envelope so you see the envelope

3 isn't being stretched.

4 MR. WOOD: The envelope, to be

5 enlarged, is supposed to be under the rules by

6 you making a showing of good cause and getting a

7 court order.

8 MR. HOFFMAN: I am trying to do

9 that. I am trying to prevent you from having to

10 go in front of --

11 MR. WOOD: I am letting you ask it.

12 Just ask the question.

13 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay.

14 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, were

15 you at all concerned with the fact that your

16 husband was attacked in your Atlanta home -- I

17 don't know if you have one or two -- Atlanta

18 home, and the security system had not been turned

19 on?

20 MR. WOOD: I object to the form of

21 the question.

22 You may answer the question.

23 THE WITNESS: I was concerned when I

24 learned that my husband had been physically

25 attacked, yes.

Page 98

1 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Were you concerned

2 that the alarm system had not been turned on?

3 A. I did not know -- I was not at the

4 home when all this happened, so I didn't know

5 whether the alarm system was on or not.

6 Q. Do you know, were you told by anyone

7 if the alarm system was or wasn't on at the time

8 of Mr. Ramsey's assault?

9 A. I don't believe that it was on. You

10 would have to ask him that.

11 Q. But that is your belief; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes. It was midday.

14 Q. There was -- also I believe in your

15 book you described an incident where you came

16 back to your home in Charlevoix, and everyone was

17 waiting in front of the house. I think Mr.

18 Ramsey, in fact, describes this incident.

19 MR. WOOD: What page?

20 MR. HOFFMAN: I don't know if I

21 marked that. What I may have to do is go back

22 to this question after lunch, because I think

23 that this may be one page that I didn't mark,

24 and I will go back to it. I was just going to

25 ask her if she recalled that particular event

Page 99

1 without having to reference it to the book. If

2 she needs to --

3 THE WITNESS: Which event is that?

4 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) In Charlevoix,

5 there, I believe, is an incident where you

6 recount where something happened to the alarm

7 system, and I believe you and your mother and

8 maybe other members of your family were waiting

9 nervously outside for the alarm system people to

10 arrive, and they didn't. And I believe John went

11 looking through the -- I believe it was the

12 Charlevoix home to see if there was an intruder.

13 And I was just curious as to how that alarm

14 system had failed, that security system.

15 A. I don't recall that part in the book.

16 Q. Well, after the lunch break, I just

17 may bring you back very briefly to ask you if

18 you have any memory of that by referring to it

19 in your book there.

20 A. Okay. Thank you.

21 Q. Did you ever at any time make a

22 statement to anyone, other than your attorneys,

23 that you had written the phrase "Mr. and Mrs.

24 Ramsey," which had appeared on one of the pads

25 that the police found in your home, and has been

Page 100

1 referred to as the so-called "practice ransom

2 note"?

3 MR. WOOD: Let me just, for the

4 record -- are you stipulating that you have

5 evidence that the phrase "Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey"

6 was written on what has been called a "practice

7 note"?

8 MR. HOFFMAN: No, I am not going to

9 stipulate to that.

10 MR. WOOD: I think, if you are going

11 to ask her about something, we ought to know

12 exactly what you are referring to, because I am

13 not sure that is correct at all.

14 MR. HOFFMAN: Fair enough. I didn't

15 want to have to bring it in in a long-winded

16 way.

17 In order to properly ask this

18 question, I am going to have to ask her a couple

19 of foundational questions.

20 MR. WOOD: Sure.

21 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, did it

22 ever come to your attention, through whatever

23 source that is not privileged, like

24 attorney-client privilege, that there may have

25 been what the police have identified as "a

Page 101

1 practice ransom note" being written?

2 A. Yes, I have heard of "a practice

3 ransom note."

4 Q. Now, can you tell me what it is that

5 you heard was on that practice ransom note?

6 A. I don't know that I ever heard

7 exactly what was on the practice ransom note.

8 Q. Did you at any time ever say to

9 anyone, say, Pam Griffin, or someone like that,

10 somebody you knew, that you, in fact, had written

11 whatever was on the practice ransom note?

12 A. No, sir.

13 Q. Now I am going to ask you to look at

14 your book here. And at page 210, it is right

15 by the photographs. Right down here, you will

16 see: "By now, anyone who knows John and me" --

17 just read the two sentences out loud.

18 A. "By now, anyone who knows John and me

19 will agree that, if there is anything we avoid,

20 it is the tabloids. When I pass the magazine

21 rack in the grocery store, I literally try to

22 look the other way."

23 Q. Is that an accurate statement of how

24 you feel?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 102

1 Q. Now I am going to ask the -- in

2 fact, let me make sure. That was from page 210

3 of "the Death of Innocence," the paperback

4 edition, that Mrs. Ramsey just read.

5 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to have the

6 reporter please mark this as Plaintiff's Exhibit

7 12 for identification. And I am going to show

8 you this.

9 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-12 was marked for

10 identification.)

11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, can

12 you identify Plaintiff's Exhibit 12?

13 A. It looks like a Xerox copy of Editor

14 & Publisher magazine.

15 Q. Can you tell me if you recognize the

16 people in the photograph?

17 A. I certainly do. Lin Wood, my husband

18 John, and myself.

19 Q. Do you remember sitting for that

20 photograph?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. Do you know why that photograph was

23 taken?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Can you tell me why?

Page 103

1 A. For this publication.

2 Q. For the purposes of being on the

3 cover of the publication; is that correct?

4 A. I didn't know at the time it was

5 going to be on the cover, necessarily, but yes.

6 Q. Did you have any idea of what the

7 substance of the article in the publication would

8 be about?

9 A. I believed it to be an article about

10 Lin Wood.

11 Q. And did you have an opportunity to

12 read the article when it came out?

13 A. When it came out, yes, I did.

14 Q. Do you remember what the article was

15 about?

16 A. It was just about Mr. Wood's law

17 practice.

18 Q. And would you say that this article

19 is consistent with an attorney who challenges the

20 media for misrepresentation?

21 MR. WOOD: I have got to ask you,

22 Darnay, what does this have to do with anything

23 in turn --

24 MR. HOFFMAN: Oh, it does. A lot --

25 I will --

Page 104

1 MR. WOOD: Why don't you tell us

2 succinctly what this article has to do with Chris

3 Wolf's claims or the defenses to his claims in

4 this libel action.

5 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. It has to do

6 with statements made in "the Death of Innocence,"

7 which I just had Mrs. Ramsey read.

8 MR. WOOD: We will answer questions

9 about that.

10 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Because the next

11 question is, given the fact that clearly you gave

12 your support to your attorney for the purposes of

13 this photo to appear on the cover of Editor &

14 Publisher --

15 MR. WOOD: Don't. I asked them if

16 they would have the photograph made because the

17 request was made to me.

18 Darnay, this is ridiculous. We don't

19 need to go into this. Ask her about "the Death

20 of Innocence." Is there a claim, Chris Wolf

21 claim that he was libeled by this article or

22 anything said in it?


24 MR. WOOD: Let's go to something else

25 that has relevance.

Page 105

1 MR. HOFFMAN: It goes to the issue

2 of one of the stated purposes in the book. You

3 have to understand, I have a right to know what

4 purposes were involved in this book.

5 MR. WOOD: Why Editor & Publisher

6 chose to write an article about my law practice

7 and my cases has nothing to do with the purposes

8 of John and Patsy Ramsey in writing the book "the

9 Death of Innocence."

10 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay.

11 MR. WOOD: So let's move on to

12 something that is relevant.

13 MR. HOFFMAN: I will try to connect

14 it up.

15 Please mark that Plaintiff's Exhibit

16 13 for identification.

17 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-13 was marked for

18 identification.)

19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Now, Mrs. Ramsey, I

20 am going to ask you to look at what I have

21 marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 13 for

22 identification and ask you if you recognize it.

23 A. No, I don't.

24 Q. I am going to ask you if at any time

25 you ever gave an interview with The National

Page 106

1 Enquirer.

2 A. We spoke with a representative from

3 The National Enquirer as part of some litigation

4 we were involved with for Burke.

5 Q. Did you ever agree to be interviewed

6 by The National Enquirer for publication?

7 MR. WOOD: Hold on. Tell me how

8 this is relevant to the libel claims of Chris

9 Wolf, whether John and Patsy Ramsey were

10 interviewed by The National Enquirer.

11 MR. HOFFMAN: Because I am going to

12 ask her about statements that were made in The

13 National Enquirer which relate to the murder and

14 the case. That is why I am asking her.

15 MR. WOOD: Ask her about the

16 statements.

17 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to first

18 lay the foundation that, in fact, she --

19 MR. WOOD: I let you say she gave

20 the interview. Why she gave the interview is not

21 relevant.

22 MR. HOFFMAN: I want to ask her why.

23 MR. WOOD: I told you that is not

24 relevant to any claim.

25 MR. HOFFMAN: You can't make that

Page 107

1 objection.

2 MR. WOOD: In the stipulation --

3 MR. HOFFMAN: You can direct her not

4 to answer. I want you to direct her not to

5 answer.

6 MR. WOOD: If you let me finish.

7 Why do you want me to do that? You mean you

8 came here with a plan to ask irrelevant

9 questions?

10 MR. HOFFMAN: No, not at all. Quite

11 simply because it is the proper form. I am

12 going to ask the question to Mrs. Ramsey and ask

13 her if she will answer it despite counsel's

14 objection.

15 MR. WOOD: Let's set the ground rules

16 right now. Mrs. Ramsey is going to follow the

17 instructions of her counsel, and you are not

18 going to ask her whether she will or will not.

19 MR. HOFFMAN: Oh, no, I will, and I

20 will tell you why, Mr. Wood.

21 MR. WOOD: You may --

22 MR. HOFFMAN: I will tell you why,

23 Mr. Wood.

24 MR. WOOD: You know, Darnay, you --

25 MR. HOFFMAN: I don't think you

Page 108

1 understand procedure.

2 MR. WOOD: I don't think you

3 understand courtesy. Down here in the south, we

4 don't interrupt people. You have interrupted me

5 repeatedly.

6 MR. HOFFMAN: You are using manners

7 as a ploy to avoid things.

8 MR. WOOD: Interruptions are

9 interruptions.

10 MR. HOFFMAN: You have interrupted me

11 many times.

12 MR. WOOD: Not repeatedly or

13 intentionally.

14 MR. HOFFMAN: If you want to go back

15 and count my interruptions of you, or Mr. Rawls

16 in Mr. Wolf's deposition --

17 MR. WOOD: You weren't even there

18 except by telephone.

19 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes. But the fact is

20 that no counsel interrupted you --

21 MR. WOOD: This man asked proper

22 questions. There was no need to have to go

23 through all this kind of back-and-forth.

24 MR. HOFFMAN: You are wrong. You

25 are out of order here, sir. You are out

Page 109

1 of order.

2 MR. WOOD: Darnay, Darnay, I am being

3 patient with you.

4 MR. HOFFMAN: No, no, no. I am

5 being patient with you.

6 This is my deposition. This is not

7 a forum for you to grandstand to look like a big

8 shot in front of your clients. That is not what

9 this is.

10 MR. WOOD: Darnay, Darnay, Darnay, I

11 am not going to sit here and listen to that.

12 You are not going to characterize what my efforts

13 are for my clients in a deposition as

14 grandstanding or otherwise. That is totally

15 inappropriate.

16 Look, I am trying to make an

17 objection, and, if necessary, an instruction which

18 at the beginning of this deposition we all agreed

19 was appropriate if you went outside of areas

20 relevant to the claims and defenses in the

21 lawsuit.

22 I happen to believe that, if the

23 question you are trying to get to is why did

24 John and Patsy Ramsey agree in the year 2000 or

25 2001 to an interview with The National Enquirer,

Page 110

1 that that is not relevant to the claims or

2 defenses in this libel lawsuit. That was the

3 question. I am going to instruct them not to

4 answer.

5 So why don't you just ask the

6 question and leave off all this back-and-forth,

7 and what I do think might be better to describe

8 now as somewhat of an ad hominem attack, which is

9 okay if you want to do it, but it is just a

10 waste of all of our time.

11 MR. HOFFMAN: Mr. Wood, just to

12 clarify one thing. I believe that, in the event

13 that the judge were to issue an order for Mrs.

14 Ramsey to compel her to answer certain questions,

15 that the record must reflect the fact that she

16 has refused to answer it, not that her counsel,

17 because the judge will not be ordering you to

18 answer it. They will be ordering Mrs. Ramsey.

19 And unless the court is clear that it is Mrs.

20 Ramsey who is refusing to answer the question and

21 not yourself, I have to make that as a record.

22 And that is the law, sir.

23 MR. WOOD: Darnay, please ask your

24 question, and then I am going to instruct my

25 client appropriately; and, if necessary, Judge

Page 111

1 Carnes will determine the law. Just ask the

2 question, for gosh sakes. Let's get going.

3 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, do you

4 know why you agreed to a National Enquirer

5 interview?

6 MR. WOOD: I instruct you not to

7 answer on the grounds that that issue is not

8 relevant to any claim or defense in this lawsuit.

9 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, will

10 you still answer the question?

11 MR. WOOD: I instruct you not to

12 respond to that question.

13 She will, in fact, follow her lawyer's

14 instructions just as any client should

15 appropriately follow her lawyer's instruction so

16 that she does not waive any right she has to

17 have Judge Carnes review this issue and rule

18 appropriately.

19 MR. HOFFMAN: Can I take that as a

20 no from your witness, that she will not --

21 MR. WOOD: You can take that exactly

22 for what it is, my statement on this record.

23 Next question, please.

24 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) All right. Mrs.

25 Ramsey, I am looking at this interview; and,

Page 112

1 actually, since we have two interviews, what I

2 would like to do is give you an opportunity to

3 review this interview because I am going to ask

4 you questions about statements that you allegedly

5 made in the interview. And since we have only a

6 minute to go before we change, I think this would

7 be an appropriate time to break and give you an

8 opportunity to read the interview.

9 MR. WOOD: Whatever you would like to

10 do.

11 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay.

12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the

13 video record at 11:35.

14 (A recess was taken.)

15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the

16 video record at 11:43.

17 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I have

18 shown you what has been marked Plaintiff's

19 Exhibit, I believe, No. 13. Has it been marked?

20 Yes. Plaintiff's Exhibit 13 for identification.

21 Have you had an opportunity to review the

22 document that I have handed you?

23 A. Yes, I have.

24 Q. I am now going to ask you again, do

25 you remember giving an interview for The National

Page 113

1 Enquirer?

2 A. I remember talking with them as part

3 of litigation we had with them concerning Burke.

4 Q. Now, I just want to ask you --

5 MR. HOFFMAN: Do we need to do that

6 again?


8 MR. HOFFMAN: Did you pick up the

9 answer?

10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I picked it up.

11 I picked it up.

12 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Just simply, I am

13 going to hand you another copy, and I've

14 highlighted just statements that The National

15 Enquirer claimed you made just simply for the

16 purposes of asking you whether or not you made

17 that statement. I am not going to go beyond

18 that. I just want to see if the Enquirer

19 quotes are, in fact, accurate where you are

20 quoted.

21 If you will, look at the bottom of

22 the first page. You will see they, quote, have

23 you say, "He has never -- we have never talked

24 about anything."

25 Is that an accurate quote?

Page 114

1 A. Who is the "he" they are talking

2 about?

3 Q. Burke. I will read the paragraph

4 before.

5 The Ramseys were asked whether Burke,

6 now 14, ever asked for details of JonBenet's

7 death. Quote, He has never -- we have never

8 talked about anything, said Patsy, who wore a

9 purple suit and a white blouse.

10 MR. WOOD: What is the question?

11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) The question is,

12 did you, in fact, say that, "He has never -- we

13 have never talked about anything"?

14 MR. LIN: In that context?

15 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Is this quote

16 accurate?

17 MR. WOOD: They may have spoken to

18 her in an interview and taken bits and pieces out

19 of context. I don't know --

20 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Is --

21 A. I don't remember whether I said that

22 in conjunction with having talked to Burke or

23 not.

24 Q. Substantively, is that accurate? Have

25 you ever talked to Burke about anything regarding

Page 115

1 the JonBenet murder as they have stated here? I

2 want to determine if that is accurate.

3 A. Yes, we talked about some things.

4 Q. So is the substance of that quote

5 accurate or inaccurate?

6 A. Well, I may have said that, but it

7 may not have been about talking to Burke or not.

8 I don't -- I would have to see -- they take

9 things out of context a lot.

10 Q. I just want to know what it is that

11 they are taking out of context here. So again,

12 I don't mean to belabor this. Did you or did

13 you not, in substance, say that you never talked

14 to Burke about anything to The National Enquirer?

15 A. I don't remember saying that.

16 Q. Now, turn to the next page, and you

17 will see highlighted on the right, "When children

18 are really tired and they don't go potty before

19 they go to bed, sometimes they have accidents."

20 One, do you remember making that

21 statement to the Enquirer?

22 A. That sounds like something I may have

23 said.

24 Q. Is it substantively correct then?

25 A. Yes, I believe so.

Page 116

1 Q. Thank you.

2 I draw your attention down a little

3 but further where, quote -- I am going to read

4 the paragraph just prior to your quote to put it

5 in context.

6 "Patsy, who is naturally right-handed,

7 was asked if she can write with her left hand."

8 "Can I write with my left hand," she

9 said, pondering the question. A smile crossed

10 her face, and she replied, "I can, but not very

11 well."

12 Did you make that statement to the

13 Enquirer?

14 A. It sounds like something I might have

15 said, yes.

16 Q. Is it substantively correct that you

17 can write with your left hand, though not very

18 well?

19 A. Well, I am not left-handed. If push

20 came to shove, I could probably write something

21 if I had broken my right arm, but I am not in

22 the manner of writing with my left hand all the

23 time, no.

24 Q. Have you ever told anybody at any

25 time that you were ambidextrous?

Page 117

1 A. No.

2 Q. That is all with respect to that.

3 Thank you.

4 Now, with respect to your book, I am

5 going to ask you to turn to page 283. In fact,

6 what I am going to do is I am going to exchange

7 this and just show you the highlighted portion

8 there. If you wouldn't mind, I would like you

9 to read it to yourself and then read it out

10 loud.

11 A. Okay.

12 Q. If you don't mind reading it out

13 loud.

14 A. "For the first time I learned that

15 someone had drawn a heart on JonBenet's hand.

16 Who had drawn that heart? The killer? JonBenet?

17 I doubted that my daughter had done so.

18 Certainly, as a younger child, she might have

19 drawn things on her hand, but at almost seven

20 years old, she was beyond that stage, in my

21 opinion. She cared about her appearance and was

22 not likely to have done so. And if she had,

23 she would have had to have drawn it with her

24 right hand. Which hand was the heart on? I

25 don't know the answer to that."

Page 118

1 Q. I am going to ask you whether that

2 was John or yourself making that statement in the

3 book. Is that information from John or from you?

4 Sometimes it becomes confusing as to one voice is

5 and another is leaving off. It is for the

6 purposes of asking --

7 MR. WOOD: Let me see if I can help

8 cut to the chase. This is talking about the

9 June 1998 interrogation or interview. Lou Smit

10 interviewed John. Did he ever interview you?

11 THE WITNESS: No. It looks like

12 maybe this was John's.

13 MR. WOOD: Looking at the next

14 paragraph, it talks about, Darnay, the other

15 people's picture was crossed out, but mine was

16 circled. I think that is John's picture, so I

17 think that probably answers it.

18 THE WITNESS: I think that is John.

19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I am going to ask

20 you whether or not you know personally whether or

21 not JonBenet ever drew hearts on her hand or

22 hands at any time when she was a small child.

23 A. When she was much younger, she did,

24 but not in recent years, no.

25 Q. So would it be fair to say that you

Page 119

1 would be surprised if JonBenet had drawn a heart

2 in her hand the day before?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know whether or not JonBenet

5 had either washed her hands or had either bathed

6 or showered prior to going to bed that night at

7 any time on December 25th?

8 A. I can't recall.

9 Q. If she had drawn a heart in her

10 hand, do you think you might have seen it

11 sometime during the day?

12 A. I may have. I don't remember seeing

13 a heart.

14 Q. Are you surprised that the autopsy

15 apparently indicates that there might have been a

16 heart drawn in her hands?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you ever at any time tell anybody

19 that you were in the habit or practice of drawing

20 hearts in JonBenet Ramsey's hand --

21 A. No.

22 Q. -- just as a sign of affection?

23 A. No.

24 Q. I am going to give this back to you,

25 and I will take that back.

Page 120

1 I would like to ask you, with respect

2 to the beauty pageants regarding JonBenet Ramsey,

3 were those pageants frequent or infrequent?

4 MR. WOOD: I am going to ask you to

5 tell me what beauty pageants that JonBenet

6 participated in have to do with this lawsuit. We

7 have responded to your request for production of

8 documents where you asked for, in number 21, "all

9 documents concerning JonBenet Ramsey's involvement

10 and participation in child beauty pageants," and

11 we have stated in our response that we object

12 because it was limitless in time and scope,

13 unreasonable, and seeks documents with no

14 relevance to the claims or defenses made in this

15 lawsuit as JonBenet Ramsey's participation in

16 beauty pageants is not at issue.

17 You have not made any attempt to

18 compel or respond to that or taken any issue with

19 our position. I don't believe that JonBenet

20 Ramsey's involvement in beauty pageants has

21 anything to do with Chris Wolf or any of the

22 claims that you make in your lawsuit.

23 MR. HOFFMAN: Are you objecting to

24 the question, then?

25 MR. WOOD: If you want to do one of

Page 121

1 your explanations of how JonBenet Ramsey's

2 participation in beauty pageants has anything to

3 do relevancy-wise, if you could point me to the

4 claim in your lawsuit or the defense that it is

5 relevant to, that would help. Just give me a

6 simple --

7 MR. HOFFMAN: It goes to the issue,

8 again, of consciousness of guilt, impeachment for

9 the purposes of witness testimony at trial. It

10 would basically give us an opportunity if there

11 is, in fact, contradictions in the answer. Basic

12 things that all trial lawyers are trying to do

13 when they are having depositions.

14 MR. WOOD: Hold on one second.

15 I am going to give you some leeway

16 on this issue in terms of questioning. Your

17 question as I understand it is now asking her

18 whether the pageants were frequent or infrequent.

19 We will do it on a question-by-question basis,

20 understanding that I think the relevancy here is

21 tenuous at best. But I am going to give you

22 the opportunity to go through it a little bit,

23 please.

24 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I simply want to

25 know whether or not, as her mother, you felt that

Page 122

1 the level of activity in beauty pageants was high

2 or low, in your mind?

3 A. Low.

4 Q. Did you keep a room in the house

5 known as the pageant room in your home in

6 Boulder?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you keep a room where you kept

9 all your trophies and all of JonBenet's pageant

10 trophies in your home in Boulder?

11 A. She had some in her room, some in

12 the play room and different places.

13 Q. I just have one other question. Did

14 you at any time tell anyone that JonBenet was

15 going to be the next Ms. America, or that she

16 was being groomed to be the next Ms. America?

17 A. Well, she could hardly be the next

18 Ms. America since she was only six years old.

19 Q. I understand. But at the time you

20 were taking her to the beauty pageants, did you

21 at any time say to anybody that you were grooming

22 JonBenet to be the next Ms. America?

23 A. I don't know. I may have said

24 something like that.

25 Q. If you don't know, fine.

Page 123

1 MR. HOFFMAN: How are we doing with

2 the time, gentleman?

3 MR. WOOD: A little before 12:00.

4 We can push on if you want.

5 MR. HOFFMAN: How much before 12:00

6 are we?

7 MR. WOOD: Just a few minutes.

8 MR. HOFFMAN: Why don't we break.

9 MR. WOOD: If that is what you want

10 to do.

11 MR. HOFFMAN: Is an hour adequate?

12 We are not going to run more than, tops, two

13 hours past the lunchtime, and it may not even be

14 that much.

15 MR. WOOD: So 3:00. Whatever. We

16 are here as long as you want us here.

17 MR. HOFFMAN: I understand. I am

18 just giving you a rough idea so that everybody

19 can be mentally out the door around that hour.

20 MR. WOOD: Is there any chance you

21 would like to go ahead and take John to see if

22 there is a chance you can finish him later today.

23 MR. HOFFMAN: I haven't finished my

24 preparation. I would like to start fresh in the

25 morning and just review the answers.

Page 124

1 MR. WOOD: I just want to make that

2 offer to you. Okay.

3 MR. HOFFMAN: Thank you very much.

4 It will be just a little bit longer than just a

5 couple of hours before the end of today.

6 MR. WOOD: Okay.

7 MR. HOFFMAN: And thank you very

8 much.

9 MR. WOOD: All right.

10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the video

11 record at 11:55.

12 (A recess was taken.)

13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the

14 video record at 1:03.

15 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I am

16 going to ask you if you can tell me who Chris

17 Wolf is. Do you know who Chris Wolf is?

18 A. Yes. He -- yes, I can tell you who

19 he is. He is a suspect in the murder of our

20 daughter.

21 Q. When you say "a suspect," how do you

22 know he is a suspect in the murder of your

23 daughter?

24 A. Well, I understand that the police had

25 him as a suspect early in 1997, and his

Page 125

1 girlfriend is, I believe, the way we came by his

2 name.

3 Q. Do you know why his girlfriend came

4 to your attention?

5 A. Yes. She called and said that she

6 believed that he was the murderer.

7 Q. Do you know who she called?

8 A. She called my parent's home.

9 Q. And do you --

10 A. I believe she had tried to call the

11 Boulder Police Department, but they had not

12 returned her calls.

13 Q. And do you know who it was that she

14 spoke to in your family with respect to --

15 A. I think initially she spoke with my

16 mother and then I believe my sister.

17 Q. Do you know the substance of what she

18 said to your mother?

19 A. Generally, she said that she was his

20 girlfriend. She -- he came home to her

21 residence. Apparently, they were living together.

22 He came home late in the middle of the night,

23 changed his clothes, and acted very strangely the

24 next morning when he saw the things were being

25 reported.

Page 126

1 Q. Now, did you just say earlier in your

2 answer that she had been attempting to contact

3 the Boulder police but had been unsuccessful, and,

4 therefore, was contacting your parents for that

5 reason?

6 MR. WOOD: I object to the form of

7 the question. It misstates the witness'

8 testimony.

9 MR. HOFFMAN: Can I have a read back

10 with respect to the answer?

11 MR. WOOD: I can tell you. "I

12 believe she had tried to call the Boulder Police

13 Department, but they had not returned her calls."

14 I don't think that means she had not ever spoken

15 with them or been unsuccessful.

16 MR. HOFFMAN: I see. I was about to

17 ask her if she could clarify whether she knew the

18 calls were being returned because they had never

19 spoken to her.

20 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I just

21 know that she apparently had made an attempt to

22 reach them.

23 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Do you know what

24 your parents did with the information that -- or

25 the person that spoke to her on the phone, your

Page 127

1 parents' phone, what they did with that

2 information? Did they call anybody?

3 A. Well, I think they told us about it.

4 Q. Do you know who they told? Not

5 revealing any attorney-client privilege.

6 A. Well, I don't -- somehow in the chain

7 of events, we found out about it, alerted our

8 investigators about it, and then I don't know

9 what happened after that.

10 Q. Do you remember when you first heard

11 about Chris Wolf as a potential murder suspect;

12 you personally?

13 A. I can't remember exactly, no.

14 Q. Was there any discussion when you

15 wrote your book, "the Death of Innocence," over

16 Chris Wolf being included in the book? Do you

17 know if you had any discussions about that, you,

18 yourself, with any of the people that were

19 writing the book with you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you give me the substance of what

22 those discussions were?

23 A. I remember Janet Toma, the editor,

24 saying that she thought we should speak to a lot

25 of the untruths that had been imparted in other

Page 128

1 books or -- like, specifically, Steve Thomas'

2 book, and "The Perfect Murder, Perfect Town," or

3 something like that. That book.

4 And she said Chris Wolf had been

5 mentioned a lot in the media, and she felt like

6 we needed to speak to that as well as other

7 myths.

8 Q. Did you agree with that suggestion,

9 you personally?

10 A. Well, I remember -- I remember John

11 and I both saying that, you know, that -- we

12 kind of said, Well, are you sure we should really

13 go into all that detail? And she said,

14 Absolutely. She felt the readers wanted to know

15 any untruths that we knew of and could refute.

16 Q. What was the untruth in the issues

17 involving -- or the Chris Wolf's involvement in

18 the case that you were trying to clarify? What

19 was the untruth in reporting that Chris Wolf was

20 a suspect? What was your editor and what were you

21 trying to clarify by reporting that in your book?

22 A. Well, I don't know that that was an

23 untruth. I think she was just saying that he,

24 his name, had been brought up quite a number of

25 times, as had Bill McReynolds and Linda

Page 129

1 Hoffman-Pugh. Those were kind of the names being

2 bantered about in the media and other

3 publications, and she felt like we needed to

4 speak to those, talk about Fleet White, talk

5 about just names and incidents that were sort of

6 the no footprints in the snow, all those little

7 urban legends we called them.

8 Q. What was the urban legend about Chris

9 Wolf that you were trying to clarify?

10 MR. WOOD: I am going to object to

11 the form. I think you all may be missing each

12 other. I think she is talking about dealing with

13 myths and urban legends and addressing individuals

14 that had been talked about, and you are saying

15 that it is one in the same. That may be what

16 she is saying, but I don't think she means that.

17 If you are misunderstanding, maybe you

18 all can clarify what you are talking about,

19 Patsy.

20 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay.

21 THE WITNESS: Well, the editor said

22 that she felt like we should -- that anything

23 that had been already out there in the public,

24 that we should talk about anything that we knew

25 about that so that there wasn't -- I mean, Chris

Page 130

1 Wolf's name was not an urban legend. That was a

2 true statement, that he had been a suspect, you

3 know.

4 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Do you feel like

5 he was fairly a suspect?

6 A. Was he "fairly a suspect"?

7 Q. Yes. Do you feel it was fair that

8 he was a murder suspect or had been discussed as

9 one?

10 A. From what I know about his background,

11 yes, I do.

12 Q. Do you feel that, in the other media

13 that your editor was referring to, like "Perfect

14 Murder, Perfect Town," whatever, that there was

15 anything you needed to correct in the way of

16 misinformation?

17 A. I had never read that book, so I

18 don't know. I can't say that specifically. She

19 just said that his name had been mentioned, so we

20 just -- you know, she wanted us to address that.

21 Q. Were you ever given an opportunity to

22 look at any evidence that would implicate Chris

23 Wolf in this crime; you, personally, given any

24 evidence or an opportunity to look at any

25 evidence, without telling me what it was, did

Page 131

1 your investigators come to you and say, We have

2 evidence concerning Chris Wolf?

3 MR. WOOD: You are asking her now to

4 go into what would constitute attorney-client

5 privilege or work product privilege, I think.

6 Anything other than what you may have

7 learned from your attorneys' investigators or your

8 attorneys, he is entitled to know; otherwise, I

9 think he would agree it is privileged.

10 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I want to know if

11 you were ever shown any evidence, without

12 identifying who showed it. Just from the group

13 of people you are associated with in helping you

14 solve the crime, did anyone within your own group

15 show you evidence of Chris Wolf's involvement,

16 without identifying who the people were that

17 showed it to you? Just in a general way, did

18 you ever see a file involving -- about Chris

19 Wolf's involvement in the crime that may have

20 been prepared for you by somebody working for

21 you?

22 MR. WOOD: Or that might have been

23 prepared by someone working for her regardless of

24 who it was prepared for.

25 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes.

Page 132

1 MR. WOOD: Do you understand what he

2 is asking you?

3 THE WITNESS: Not quite.

4 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I have to tread a

5 fine line here.

6 A. You are saying the evidence --

7 Q. Did you ever see anything, any

8 writing --

9 A. I had seen some of his effects; is

10 that what you are saying? Yes, I have.

11 Q. Or anything that was purported to be

12 evidence pointing to Chris Wolf as a potential

13 murder suspect, have you ever actually physically

14 seen any of that yourself?

15 A. I have seen some of his personal

16 effects, yes.

17 Q. Were these personal effects meant to

18 show that he might, in fact, be a murder suspect

19 or be someone who could have killed your

20 daughter?

21 A. I believe so.

22 Q. I have one sort of quick question

23 here. Did your sister Pam ever tell you that she

24 knew who the killer of JonBenet Ramsey was?

25 A. No, she didn't.

Page 133

1 Q. Never made a statement like that to

2 you?

3 A. Not emphatically like that. She has

4 given me her opinion of who she thought might be

5 this or that.

6 Q. Did she tell you who, in her opinion,

7 she thought was the killer?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you name the person in question

10 or persons that she thought were the killer, was

11 or were the killers?

12 A. Could I?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. Yes, I could.

15 Q. Would you?

16 A. Well, she has named several people.

17 Q. Could you just give me their names?

18 THE WITNESS: Is that appropriate?

19 MR. WOOD: Let me ask you, Darnay,

20 what possible relevance could it have? I don't

21 know if Chris Wolf is one of them or not. You

22 could ask that, I think, but what possible

23 relevance could it have to your claims to go into

24 the issue of who her sister says she believes

25 might be the killer?

Page 134

1 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, because her sister

2 actually made statements that got reported in the

3 media to the effect that she knew who the killer

4 was, in fact, had seen that person only recently,

5 and I was wondering whether or not she had ever

6 made that statement around Patsy, a statement like

7 that, and then identify --

8 MR. WOOD: Why don't you take her

9 deposition to find out what she was talking 10 about. I think that would be more appropriate.

11 MR. HOFFMAN: I will take that under

12 advisement. Thank you.

13 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Okay. Back to the

14 issue of Chris Wolf.

15 Do you know whose decision it was,

16 when your book "the Death of Innocence" was bound

17 in hard cover and ready to sort of be given to

18 the media, who decided to issue press releases to

19 the effect that the book would name murder

20 suspects, your group of murder suspects?

21 MR. WOOD: When you use the phrase

22 "would name murder suspects," are you equating

23 that with the book stating the identities of

24 individuals who had previously been identified as

25 murder suspects? Because I don't know of anyone

Page 135

1 who was, quote/unquote, named a murder suspect as

2 if that was the first mention of that person in

3 that book.

4 Do you understand the difference I am

5 asking?

6 MR. HOFFMAN: I understand.

7 MR. WOOD: Because I think it is a

8 fair question to clarify.

9 MR. HOFFMAN: Absolutely.

10 MR. WOOD: Thank you.

11 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to try and

12 ask it. I may have to ask it in multiple parts

13 with a yes or no.

14 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) When you were

15 preparing your book, did you think there might

16 come a time when the book was released that the

17 names of the people that were discussed as

18 possible murder suspects, either by yourself or by

19 law enforcement authorities, might actually become

20 public knowledge in the publication of this book?

21 A. Well, if their names are in the book,

22 it was going to be public knowledge.

23 Q. Do you know who made the decision to

24 advertise this book as naming -- well, actually,

25 I think the colloquial is, The Ramseys name their

Page 136

1 murder suspects.

2 MR. WOOD: Where is this?

3 MR. HOFFMAN: Not in here. It was

4 in media that was circulating around the time.

5 MR. WOOD: I don't think we can

6 speak to whatever media was circulating. The

7 bottom line is, Darnay, they identified people

8 that had already been identified as suspects, and

9 they discussed them.

10 Let me finish.

11 And you are trying to ask her about

12 some, perhaps, misinterpretation or some

13 interpretation circulating in the media that they

14 were for the first time going to identify

15 suspects. And I don't think it is fair to do

16 that unless you show her what you are talking

17 about, and then she can answer the question, and

18 then she will answer the question.

19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Actually, really all

20 I want to know is who was responsible for

21 deciding how to promote this book in the media

22 when it came out. Do you know who the individual

23 was that made that decision?

24 A. I would say the people at Thomas

25 Nelson publishers.

Page 137

1 Q. Was there any specific person that you

2 know of personally that was going to be making

3 those decisions or did make those decisions on

4 how to promote the book?

5 A. It is a large company. They have a

6 marketing department. I don't know.

7 Q. So you were never introduced to

8 anybody in the marketing or promotional part of

9 Thomas Nelson who discussed the promotion of this

10 book with you, you, personally, that said, This

11 is what we are going to do or not going to do?

12 A. I don't remember having those specific

13 discussions, no.

14 Q. So you weren't actually asked for your

15 advice with respect to any of the marketing of

16 the book; there was no discussion between author

17 and the marketing or promotion part of it?

18 A. Not that I remember, no.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 Now, with respect to Steve Thomas --

21 MR. WOOD: Hold on.

22 (Deponent and her counsel confer.)

23 MR. WOOD: Let me ask you, Darnay,

24 because I don't think Patsy understood. When you

25 used the term "marketing and promotion," I

Page 138

1 interpret that as meaning you are including,

2 perhaps, discussing with them the interviews that

3 they were either considering or actually being --

4 or actually giving.

5 MR. HOFFMAN: Just an overall.

6 MR. WOOD: I don't think she got

7 that part because --

8 THE WITNESS: I was thinking like

9 advertising.

10 MR. WOOD: Like advertising in the

11 newspaper and things.

12 You may want to rephrase that again

13 including press interviews.

14 THE WITNESS: We had discussions about

15 where we were doing press interviews, but not

16 about print advertising or something like that.

17 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Then did there

18 really ever come a time when you were preparing

19 your book for publication that you had occasion

20 to talk at Thomas Nelson, or with anyone Thomas

21 Nelson might have hired to help in this area

22 involving media interviews such as print

23 interviews, radio interviews, television interviews,

24 anything like that? Were you brought into any

25 discussions involving that?

Page 139

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were you given approval, the right to

3 approve or disapprove of any of those interview

4 vehicles?

5 A. I think the final decision fell with

6 Thomas Nelson, probably.

7 Q. In your media interviews or whatever,

8 were you ever told that there were areas that you

9 could go into or not go into by anybody at

10 Thomas Nelson when you talked in your interviews?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So that if you chose in an interview

13 to name an individual or not name an individual

14 who appeared in this book and who may or may not

15 have been named as a source in other books, that

16 the discussion of that individual, you weren't

17 told not to talk about anybody that was named in

18 the book, meaning that no one said, Don't talk

19 about Chris Wolf in your interviews, or, Don't

20 talk about anybody that is a potential murder

21 suspect?

22 MR. WOOD: Object to the form of the

23 question as being multiple in nature.

24 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay.

25 THE WITNESS: Did they tell me?

Page 140

1 What are you asking me? Did they tell me what

2 to say or not to say?

3 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Did they say there

4 were areas you really shouldn't discuss --

5 A. No.

6 Q. -- in your media interviews?

7 So any decision to, say, discuss Chris

8 Wolf or Linda Hoffman-Pugh, or mention in your

9 interviews, that was a decision you made for

10 yourself in doing the interview?

11 A. During the interview?

12 Q. Yes, during the interview.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So no one coached you or encouraged

15 you to make statements like that; they were made

16 voluntarily by yourself?

17 A. In answer to an interviewer's

18 question, yes.

19 Q. That is all I wanted to establish.

20 Thank you.

21 Now, this may be one of the last

22 topic areas I go into today with respect to your

23 deposition. I am going to ask you if you are

24 familiar with Steve Thomas' book, "JonBenet"?

25 A. I know he wrote the book. I have

Page 141

1 not read it.

2 Q. And this may be a subject of

3 discussion for Lin and I. He may or may not

4 object to it. We will see.

5 Since you haven't read it, what I

6 wanted you to do was to have an opportunity to

7 read -- you can review it. You can take

8 whatever time you want to just simply read three

9 or four pages of his book where he, in effect,

10 outlines his theory of what happened that night.

11 Because then I would like to be able to ask you,

12 for the record, whether or not any of these

13 statements are true or false.

14 A. You can go ask me the questions. I

15 generally know his theories.

16 MR. WOOD: Let me say this to you,

17 Darnay. Are you referring to --

18 MR. HOFFMAN: In the paperback, it

19 is 318.

20 MR. WOOD: Excuse me. In your

21 client's request for admission number 108, you set

22 forth, I thought, in verbatim quotations, Steve

23 Thomas' description or theory of the case and

24 asked my clients to admit or deny whether that

25 was an accurate statement of the passages from

Page 142

1 the book, which they admitted.

2 What I would say is we know they

3 have been forced to look at that by virtue of

4 responding to your request for admissions, even

5 though they didn't look at it in the book proper.

6 Why don't you just go ahead and ask

7 her specific questions, and let's leave Steve

8 Thomas' book to Steve Thomas' lawsuit because he

9 has enough to answer for that himself without her

10 answering for him.

11 MR. HOFFMAN: No. I understand.

12 All I wanted to do is just simply, because it is

13 one thing to simply say yes, you admit for the

14 purposes of request to admit that these statements

15 were made in the book.

16 MR. WOOD: Sure. She read it. She

17 has a general familiarity with it because you

18 included it in your request to admit. So I

19 would ask you to go ahead and ask her specific

20 questions. And, like I said, let's leave Steve

21 Thomas' book to his lawyers to worry about. As

22 I say, they have their hands full on that one.

23 We don't need to get into that today.

24 Why don't you ask her specific

25 questions about the murder of her daughter, the

Page 143

1 death of her daughter, factual questions about

2 what may or may not have been done, et cetera.

3 She will answer any question you have in that

4 regard.

5 MR. HOFFMAN: I had just basically

6 wanted her to review it before I asked her --

7 MR. WOOD: I don't believe it is

8 necessary because we are not going to test to the

9 truth or falsity of Mr. Thomas' book. We will

10 test her knowledge about factual issues related to

11 the death of her daughter. That is why I don't

12 want to put it in the context of Mr. Thomas'

13 book, which we, as you know, clearly contend to

14 be libelous.

15 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. I am just going

16 to need a minute to make sure I go into relevant

17 areas rather than irrelevant areas.

18 MR. HOFFMAN: All right. What I am

19 going to do, rather than -- because I think most

20 of what he talks about is not factual. It is

21 more his subjective interpretation of evidence,

22 and I can't ask her whether his subjective

23 interpretation is true or false.

24 I am going to ask her if she read

25 the complete statement. And then ask her whether

Page 144

1 or not she, in fact, was involved in any way in

2 the murder of her daughter, as Steve Thomas --

3 because I think these statements speak for

4 themselves as far as his hypothesis.

5 She doesn't know how to test a

6 hypothesis. I am not really asking her to do

7 that.

8 MR. WOOD: The question of whether

9 Steve Thomas' statements or hypothesis are

10 factual, capable of being proven true or false,

11 is not an issue for us to debate today, and I

12 think you understand that.

13 MR. HOFFMAN: That's right. Yes.

14 MR. WOOD: She is not here to

15 test Steve Thomas' hypothesis or factual

16 representations --

17 MR. HOFFMAN: I agree with that.

18 MR. WOOD: -- whatever the case may

19 be. She is here to answer any question. And I

20 want to say this to you without any doubt in

21 your mind of what I am telling you, Darnay. She

22 is here to answer any question, any question that

23 you have that asks her about factual information

24 relevant to the death of her daughter.

25 So you have the opportunity today for

Page 145

1 however many hours you have left under the

2 federal rules to ask her anything about that.

3 She is prepared, ready, and willing and able to

4 answer any of those questions.

5 So that is what I would like you to

6 do. Let's go at it that way. You fire away,

7 and she will answer them.

8 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) One of the most

9 controversial pieces of evidence is a red Boy

10 Scout knife or a whittling knife. I don't know

11 if it is a Swiss Army knife. Do you know

12 whether or not Burke owned a red knife at any

13 time?

14 A. He had a couple of them.

15 Q. He had more than one?

16 A. I believe so.

17 Q. Do you know if he had more than one

18 at one time?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So it wasn't like he owned one and

21 then lost it and then owned another one?

22 A. Oh, well, I don't know that exactly.

23 I guess he has had a couple of them in his

24 life. I don't know that.

25 Q. Do you know the whereabouts of that

Page 146

1 knife on Christmas day?

2 MR. WOOD: Which one?

3 MR. HOFFMAN: The red knife that I

4 was just referring to.

5 MR. WOOD: She said he had a couple.

6 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Do you know the

7 whereabouts of either one of those knifes?

8 A. No.

9 Q. There is apparently a kitchen knife

10 found.

11 MR. WOOD: Kitchen knife found where?

12 MR. HOFFMAN: Found at the scene of

13 the crime somewhere in the kitchen, or whatever.

14 MR. WOOD: That would be news to me.

15 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. All right.

16 MR. WOOD: I don't know what you are

17 talking about. If you can, help me. If the

18 question is, Did you have kitchen knives --

19 MR. HOFFMAN: I know she has kitchen

20 knives.

21 MR. WOOD: But when you represent,

22 please, when you represent something as being

23 evidence, I just have to make sure that that is

24 just not --

25 MR. HOFFMAN: I am not saying any of

Page 147

1 this is evidence.

2 MR. WOOD: -- made up out of whole

3 cloth because the tabloids said it was evidence.

4 Most of that doesn't exist.

5 MR. HOFFMAN: I want to know what

6 she knows is and isn't.

7 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Let me ask you

8 this question. Are you a coffee or a tea

9 drinker, generally?

10 A. I drink both.

11 Q. In the mornings, when you prepare

12 yourself for the day, generally what do you have,

13 coffee or tea?

14 A. Usually coffee.

15 Q. Could you just describe what would be

16 a typical weekday for you when you get up in the

17 morning?

18 MR. WOOD: Now or back in 1996?

19 MR. HOFFMAN: I am sorry. In 1996.

20 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Just a typical

21 weekday morning. Who would normally get up first

22 in the morning?

23 Was John generally an early riser?

24 Did you get up beforehand, that sort of thing, go

25 down and make coffee?

Page 148

1 MR. WOOD: Are we talking about a

2 typical Monday through Friday where the kids are

3 in school?

4 MR. HOFFMAN: Right, nobody on

5 vacation.

6 MR. WOOD: John was going to work?

7 MR. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh (affirmative).

8 MR. WOOD: Can you do that, Patsy?

9 Do you understand what he is asking you?

10 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Can you describe

11 it?

12 A. Just in general, get up, get the kids

13 ready for school. He would go to work. I

14 would do things around the house or shopping or

15 school volunteer work and pick up the kids. And

16 that was about it.

17 Q. When you would get up in the morning,

18 would you just generally dress first and go down

19 and start preparing meals for the family, or

20 would you go down, prepare the meals first, and

21 then go get dressed?

22 A. It was probably no set pattern, but

23 usually I would dress first.

24 Q. I am sorry, you would dress?

25 A. I would usually get dressed.

Page 149

1 Q. Before you would go down to the

2 kitchen to prepare meals?

3 A. Yes. Usually. I can't say for

4 sure, but --

5 Q. But --

6 A. Usually.

7 Q. Your best recollection.

8 And then after you had dressed and

9 gone downstairs, normally what was the meal

10 preparation like for your family?

11 A. The kids would usually have cereal, I

12 think, before school. Oatmeal sometimes, fruit,

13 Pop Tarts, whatever was around.

14 Q. And you were generally dressed for the

15 day by that time; and when that was done, then I

16 just take it that you would just go about your

17 business for the rest of the day, whatever that

18 was?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you ever prepare meals in a more

21 informal way in the morning, like go down in

22 like, say, a black housecoat with something that

23 might have like rose color flowers on it, that

24 sort of thing? Ever prepare meals in the morning

25 informally?

Page 150

1 A. Oh, I probably -- I don't know about

2 the rose color robe you are talking about, but --

3 Q. The black robe with rose colors, or

4 anything like that.

5 MR. WOOD: Or anything like that?

6 MR. HOFFMAN: Or any type of clothing

7 like that.

8 MR. WOOD: What do you mean when you

9 say any clothing like --.

10 Like a black robe with red roses,

11 pink roses?

12 MR. HOFFMAN: Linda Hoffman-Pugh once

13 identified her as --

14 MR. WOOD: Why don't you just be

15 direct and ask her the question did she own such

16 a robe and had she ever worn it. Go right

17 ahead.

18 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Did you ever own a

19 black housecoat with pink roses on it, or a black

20 robe? I don't know if it was a housecoat or

21 how you would describe it. I don't know how

22 women identify these types of informal garments.

23 A. I can't remember. I know I have a

24 white one with pink roses.

25 I may have. I can't remember. I

Page 151

1 had a lot of robes.

2 Q. With respect to JonBenet, was

3 pineapple a favorite meal of hers?

4 A. She liked fruit, in general.

5 Q. No particular fruit?

6 A. Just most any fruit.

7 Q. And was that a preference for Burke

8 also, fruit, like his sister?

9 A. He liked it -- he likes fruit, but

10 not as much as she did.

11 Q. Do you know if JonBenet would play in

12 the basement area?

13 A. She did not play much in the

14 basement.

15 Q. Did she ever express an aversion to

16 playing in the basement area?

17 A. An aversion?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. No.

20 Q. What was the basement area generally

21 used for in the house?

22 A. Burke had a train set up in one area

23 of the basement. There was -- and generally the

24 rest of it was for storage of seasonal

25 decorations, art supplies, school project supplies,

Page 152

1 that kind of thing.

2 Q. So if you didn't know what to do

3 with something in the house, you would just take

4 it down, have it sent down to the basement. Was

5 that the general storage area for things?

6 A. Largely, yes.

7 Q. Because Linda Hoffman-Pugh told me

8 that if you didn't know what to do with something

9 in the house, you would always say, Take it to

10 the basement; that was a favorite phrase of

11 yours?

12 MR. WOOD: Are you asking her whether

13 Linda Hoffman-Pugh told you that or --

14 MR. HOFFMAN: No. Whether that is,

15 in fact, a favorite phrase of hers.

16 MR. WOOD: Let me ask you so that

17 the record is clear, would you rephrase it so she

18 will know exactly what you are asking her.

19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Was the phrase

20 "Take it to the basement" a favorite phrase of

21 yours if there was something in the house that

22 you didn't know what to do with?

23 A. I can't say what is a favorite phrase

24 or not. I am sure I don't know what that is.

25 Q. Frequently, the solution to any

Page 153

1 problem about where to take or store anything in

2 the house.

3 A. Probably so.

4 Q. With respect to the day in question,

5 whose decision was it to call the police when you

6 found the ransom note? Do you remember?

7 A. John and I, we just said, "What do

8 we do? Call the police." I don't know if it

9 was specifically one's decision or the other.

10 Q. Whose idea was it to call all the

11 people that eventually arrived, your friends, your

12 whatever, that came afterwards?

13 A. Oh, I did that.

14 Q. Can you tell me why you did that?

15 A. It just seemed instinctive. It was

16 just kind of a very stressful time, and I just

17 called on friends.

18 Q. Had you read the ransom note by

19 that time?

20 A. I don't think I had read all of

21 it, no.

22 Q. Were you aware that there was a part

23 in the ransom note where you were told not to

24 contact authorities?

25 A. I think I read that later.

Page 154

1 Q. Did you think that there might be

2 a chance that, if you called a group of people

3 over to the house and it was being observed,

4 that the kidnappers might, in fact, see that

5 you had disobeyed the condition of their ransom

6 note?

7 A. Well, that just didn't go through my

8 mind at that time.

9 Q. Were there any -- I am going to

10 withdraw that. I don't know if it is going to

11 be relevant.

12 What I am going to do, because I

13 don't think there is very much more about that

14 particular day that I really want to go into that

15 you haven't already given in the way of

16 statements that I have received. I just want to

17 clarify a few things.

18 Lin has been very forthcoming in

19 giving me discovery and whatever, so rather than

20 rehash all that, I just wanted to address a few

21 questions.

22 I am going to close the deposition by

23 asking you one question. It is just I feel I

24 am obligated to do it, and then we are going to

25 end the deposition unless there is something Lin

Page 155

1 wants to add. I am just going to ask you a

2 question.

3 Mrs. Ramsey, did you write the ransom

4 note that was found on December 26 at your

5 Boulder home?

6 A. I believe you have already asked me

7 that, and I said I did not write the ransom

8 note, no.

9 Q. I am just asking. Did you have

10 anything to do with the death of your daughter?

11 A. No, sir, I did not.

12 MR. HOFFMAN: Thank you. I am

13 finished.

14 MR. WOOD: For the record, I

15 mentioned to you, Darnay, during the break that I

16 think there has been, correct me if I am wrong,

17 one instruction on my part to Mrs. Ramsey not to

18 answer a question.

19 Am I right?

20 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes.

21 MR. WOOD: That question went to

22 making inquiry of her as to why she and her

23 husband granted an interview to The National

24 Enquirer.

25 Since the last thing I want to do is

Page 156

1 to fight a motion battle over that, and because I

2 have been consistent throughout in my

3 representation of the Ramseys, as I think they

4 have been even before I was involved in terms of

5 trying to answer every question, if you will

6 agree that we are not waiving any right to the

7 question of relevancy in allowing her to answer

8 that question, I am going to let her answer it,

9 and effectively withdraw with that understanding

10 my objection and instruction. Is that okay?

11 MR. HOFFMAN: That is fine.

12 MR. WOOD: So with that agreement, if

13 you would like to ask her; and if, Patsy, you

14 would answer the question for him, please.

15 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to formally

16 ask it.

17 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I

18 showed you a document that was identified as

19 Plaintiff's Exhibit 13. I am going to show that

20 document to you again. Could you identify what

21 it is that that document purports to be?

22 A. They are copies from a tabloid

23 article, National Enquirer tabloid article.

24 Q. Would you characterize the statements

25 that you made in this article as being statements

Page 157

1 that were made in the course of an interview,

2 formal interview with The National Enquirer?

3 A. It was an interview in conjunction

4 with some litigation for Burke that we were

5 involved with.

6 Q. If it was --

7 MR. HOFFMAN: See, this is why it is

8 a tricky area because for litigation, I don't

9 want to go into what the litigation was about,

10 and, naturally, if she gave it for the purposes

11 of the litigation, then she is required to by

12 law.

13 MR. WOOD: No, it was not given as a

14 requirement of the litigation as a matter of law.

15 MR. HOFFMAN: Oh, okay.

16 MR. WOOD: But I think what she is

17 saying is that the issue about the interview came

18 up in connection with actually the resolution of

19 some of Burke's claims.

20 MR. HOFFMAN: Because I don't want to

21 get into it if this is part of the settlement.

22 If that is really what she is going to say, that

23 she agreed to this interview because it was part

24 of a settlement agreement --

25 MR. WOOD: I don't think that is

Page 158

1 what she said.

2 THE WITNESS: I agreed to the

3 interview because, I mean, we are not afraid to

4 face even our most vile opponent, of which I

5 consider The National Enquirer to be one of the

6 most vile.

7 And, you know, we have faced Steve

8 Thomas. We have faced The National Enquirer. We

9 have nothing to hide. And I am facing you

10 today, Mr. Hoffman.

11 I did not kill my daughter, I did

12 not write the ransom note, and I don't know who

13 did either of those things. And I am not afraid

14 to answer any questions from either you or from

15 them or from the police department or from anyone

16 else, for that matter. And that is why the

17 interview was taken.

18 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay.

19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) The only reason I

20 had asked it was in relation to a statement that

21 was made in the book about how disapproving you

22 were of the tabloids, and --

23 A. And to this day I disapprove of the

24 tabloids.

25 Q. And also, I believe Mr. Ramsey once

Page 159

1 stated that it was his intention to see that, if

2 anything came out of this case, it would be a

3 change in the way in which the media reported

4 certain news.

5 And I was just wondering why, after

6 these strong statements of principle, that you

7 basically were willing to give a tabloid an

8 interview. That is all, my only reason for

9 asking that.

10 A. Because we wanted to prove that we

11 have nothing to hide and that we can sufficiently

12 face our most vile opponent.

13 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. Thank you very

14 much.

15 Lin, I have no further questions.

16 MR. WOOD: One second.

17 So that we are clear, because you

18 have obviously done a good job of economically

19 handling the time, despite some of the colloquy

20 earlier in the day, it is clear on this record

21 that you are completing well within the maximum

22 seven hours allowed by --

23 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes.

24 MR. WOOD: -- the Federal Rules of

25 Civil Procedure. You understand we are willing

Page 160

1 to sit here for the remainder of the afternoon --

2 MR. HOFFMAN: I understand.

3 MR. WOOD: -- for however many hours

4 and answer any questions?

5 MR. HOFFMAN: Absolutely.

6 MR. WOOD: Now that we made our one

7 change of heart, you understand, Mr. Hoffman, that

8 we have answered every question, Patsy Ramsey has

9 answered any question you have put to her and

10 expressed a willingness to stay for several more

11 hours and answer any other questions; right?

12 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, I do know that I

13 would have to review the transcript. You made

14 certain objections over and above the objection

15 with respect to that, and there was an ongoing

16 colloquy between the two of us.

17 MR. WOOD: We have that transcript

18 available on this computer, and I want to make

19 sure, because you have come a long way from New

20 York, and there are a lot of lawyers that are

21 here today to make sure that Chris Wolf and his

22 attorneys have had every opportunity to ask any

23 question relevant to the claims or defenses in

24 this case.

25 And if you are representing that you

Page 161

1 have now done so to your satisfaction, then the

2 deposition is, in fact, complete.

3 MR. HOFFMAN: Again, it is subject

4 to --

5 MR. WOOD: If there is any --

6 MR. HOFFMAN: -- any review.

7 MR. WOOD: -- issue you want to look

8 at now, we don't mind taking a break, turn my

9 computer around, you can scroll through the entire

10 deposition, and if there is a question, she is

11 here. We can come back after the break, and you

12 can clarify it.

13 THE WITNESS: Let's do that to make

14 sure.

15 MR. WOOD: I would rather take the

16 time today to make sure that you are done and

17 not take any chance that we would have to come

18 back and put together this type of a force of

19 people.

20 MR. HOFFMAN: I really don't foresee

21 that there is any area.

22 MR. WOOD: That is all I wanted to

23 know.

24 MR. HOFFMAN: And, Mr. Wood, I wanted

25 to tell you that at lunchtime, in light of our

Page 162

1 earlier discussion, I felt that, given -- I had a

2 chance to review all of the, which was quite

3 substantial, the discovery documentation, and in

4 doing that, I realized that a lot of what I

5 would be asking had been an asked-and-answered

6 situation, and there was simply no reason to

7 subject Mrs. Ramsey to answer questions and

8 answers that she has already given on other

9 occasions.

10 MR. WOOD: In fact, you have been

11 provided with complete transcripts of the April

12 1997 police interviews, of the June 1998 police

13 and district attorney interviews, and of the

14 August 2000 police interviews; we have given those

15 to you.

16 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes, absolutely.

17 MR. WOOD: And I think you would

18 acknowledge, as she did today for you, she did in

19 every one of those, she answered every question;

20 didn't she?

21 MR. HOFFMAN: I believe she did, to

22 the best of her ability.

23 MR. WOOD: All right. Deposition

24 concluded. Thank you very much.

25 MR. HOFFMAN: Thank you, Mrs. Ramsey,

Page 163

1 for coming.

2 MR. WOOD: Let's go back on. Are we

3 back on?

4 One thing I do want to make clear,

5 because this has come up in other depositions, in

6 whole or in part, and I want to state it now so

7 that there is no doubt about it being something

8 that even has to take a moment's reflection.

9 Subject to the court reporter's need

10 to coordinate the videotape with the stenographic

11 transcript, the written transcript, which I

12 understand takes some time in order to ensure

13 complete accuracy, I want to state that, on

14 behalf of the Ramseys, this deposition shall not

15 be deemed confidential. No part of this

16 deposition will be deemed confidential.

17 My clients are perfectly willing for

18 this entire deposition, either in the written

19 stenographic form or in the videotape form, in

20 its entirety, to be made public. And we make

21 that statement unlike any other witness in this

22 case. Every other witness has claimed

23 confidentiality in whole or in part. We claim no

24 such confidentiality.

25 We are willing to let anyone that

Page 164

1 wants to see it in its entirety see it.

2 So with that statement, then we are

3 completed.

4 MR. HOFFMAN: With that statement,

5 that means that when the videotapes are -- do you

6 need to review the videotapes before?

7 MR. WOOD: No. I have made my

8 statement without the necessity of reflection or

9 review. The Ramseys are willing to allow this

10 deposition to be made public in its entirety.

11 The only delay, as I understand it,

12 in being able to do that is for the videographer

13 and the stenographer to review the transcript in

14 writing and the videotape to make sure that there

15 is a coordinated and accurate transcript.

16 Once that process is done, whoever

17 would like to see this deposition in video or to

18 read it in writing, the Ramseys make no claim to

19 confidentiality.

20 MR. HOFFMAN: Fine. Thank you. And

21 thank you once again, Mrs. Ramsey.

22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the

23 video record at 1:45.

24 (Whereupon, the deposition was

25 concluded at 1:45 p.m.)

Page 165



3 1 Photograph

4 2 Photographs

5 3 Lights of December Parade Entry Form

6 4 Hawaiian Tropic International Official

7 Entry Form

8 5 Photocopy of inside of greeting card

9 6 Handwritten note on letterhead of Patricia

10 Paugh Ramsey

11 7 Document

12 8 Laser color copy of photograph

13 9 Laser color copy of photographs

14 10 Handwritten document containing letters

15 and various markings

16 11 Handwritten document containing letters

17 and various markings

18 12 Photocopy of Editor & Publisher magazine

19 cover of November 27, 2000

20 13 Photocopy of The National Enquirer article

21 (Original exhibits attached to the

22 original deposition.)




Page 166



3 I hereby certify that the foregoing

4 transcript was reported, as stated in the

5 caption, and the questions and answers

6 thereto were reduced to typewriting under my

7 direction; that the foregoing pages represent

8 a true, complete, and correct transcript of

9 the evidence given upon said hearing, and I

10 further certify that I am not of kin or

11 counsel to the parties in the case; am not

12 in the employ of counsel for any of said

13 parties; nor am I in anywise interested in

14 the result of said case.

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Page 167

1 Disclosure Pursuant to Article

2 8(B) of the Rules and Regulations of the

3 Board of Court Reporting of the Judicial

4 Council of Georgia, I make the following

5 disclosure:

6 I am a Georgia Certified Court

7 Reporter, here as a representative of

8 Alexander Gallo & Associates, Inc., to report

9 the foregoing matter. Alexander Gallo &

10 Associates, Inc., is not taking this

11 deposition under any contract that is

12 prohibited by O.C.G.A. 5-14-37 (a) and (b).

13 Alexander Gallo & Associates,

14 Inc., will be charging its usual and

15 customary rates for this transcript.

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Page 168


2 The Deposition of Patricia P. Ramsey,

3 taken in the matter, on the date, and at the

4 time and place set out on the title page

5 hereof.

6 It was requested that the deposition

7 be taken by the reporter and that same be

8 reduced to typewritten form.

9 It was agreed by and between counsel

10 and the parties that the Deponent will read

11 and sign the transcript of said deposition.

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Page 169

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5 Before me, this day, personally

6 appeared, Patricia P. Ramsey, who, being duly

7 sworn, states that the foregoing transcript

8 of his/her Deposition, taken in the matter,

9 on the date, and at the time and place set

10 out on the title page hereof, constitutes a

11 true and accurate transcript of said

12 deposition.


14 Patricia P. Ramsey

15 .

16 SUBSCRIBED and SWORN to before me this

17 day of , 2001 in the

18 jurisdiction aforesaid.


20 My Commission Expires Notary Public

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Page 170


2 .

3 RE: Alexander Gallo & Associates

4 File No. 1637

5 Case Caption: Robert Christian Wolf vs.

6 John & Patricia Ramsey


8 Deponent: Patricia P. Ramsey

9 Deposition Date: December 11, 2001

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11 To the Reporter:

12 I have read the entire transcript of my

13 Deposition taken in the captioned matter or

14 the same has been read to me. I request

15 that the following changes be entered upon

16 the record for the reasons indicated. I

17 have signed my name to the Errata Sheet and

18 the appropriate Certificate and authorize you

19 to attach both to the original transcript.

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21 Page No. Line No. Change to:


23 Reason for change:

24 Page No. Line No. Change to:


Page 171

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11 DEPOSITION OF Patricia P. Ramsey

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Page 172


2 Reason for change:

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8 SIGNATURE:_______________________DATE:___________

9 Patricia P. Ramsey

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