Page 1
1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF GEORGIA
2 ATLANTA DIVISION
3
ROBERT CHRISTIAN WOLF,
4
Plaintiff, CIVIL ACTION FILE
5 vs. NO. 00-CIV-1187(JEC)
6 JOHN BENNETT RAMSEY and
PATRICIA PAUGH RAMSEY,
7
Defendants.
8 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
9
10 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
11 PATRICIA PAUGH RAMSEY
12
December 11, 2001
13 9:14 a.m.
14 Alexander Gallo & Associates, Inc.
500 The Candler Building
15 127 Peachtree Street, N.E.
Atlanta, Georgia
16
17
Alexander J. Gallo, CCR-B-1332, CRR
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Page 2
1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL
2 .
3 On behalf of the Plaintiff:
4 DARNAY HOFFMAN, Esq.
5 Law Offices of Darnay Hoffman
6 Suite 209
7 210 West 70th Street
8 New York, New York 10023
9 (212) 712-2766
10 -and-
11 EVAN M. ALTMAN, Esq.
12 Law Offices of Evan M. Altman
13 Suite 495
14 5901-C Peachtree Dunwoody Road
15 Atlanta, Georgia 30328
16 (770) 394-6466
17 .
18 .
19 .
20 .
21 .
22 .
23 .
24 .
25 .

Page 3
1 On behalf of the Defendants:
2 JAMES C. RAWLS, Esq.
3 ERIC P. SCHROEDER, Esq.
4 S. DEREK BAUER, Esq.
5 Powell, Goldstein, Frazer & Murphy, L.L.P.
6 Sixteenth Floor
7 191 Peachtree Street, N.E.
8 Atlanta, Georgia 30303
9 (404) 572-6600
10 -and-
11 L. LIN WOOD, Esq.
12 BRANDON HORNSBY, Esq.
13 MAHALEY C. PAULK, Esq.
14 L. Lin Wood, P.C.
15 2140 The Equitable Building
16 100 Peachtree Street
17 Atlanta, Georgia 30303
18 (404) 522-1713
19 .
20 Also Present:
21 John Bennett Ramsey
22 Michael McElroy, Videographer
23 .
24 .
25 .

Page 4
1 Videotaped Deposition of Patricia P. Ramsey
2 December 11, 2001
3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the
4 video record at 9:14.
5 MR. HOFFMAN: Good morning, Mrs.
6 Ramsey, Lin Wood.
7 This is the deposition of Patricia
8 Ramsey in the case of Robert Christian Wolf
9 versus John Bennett Ramsey and Patricia Paugh
10 Ramsey.
11 Do you need the index number for that
12 for the tape?
13 Mrs. Ramsey, have you ever attended a
14 deposition before.
15 MR. WOOD: Maybe we ought to have --
16 MR. HOFFMAN: So we have a record of
17 everybody that is here.
18 MR. WOOD: -- so we have an
19 understanding, we might want to make sure we have
20 a record of who is here and then a couple of
21 other stipulations.
22 I am Lin Wood. I represent John and
23 Patsy Ramsey.
24 MR. RAWLS: I am Jim Rawls,
25 co-counsel with Mr. Wood for John and

Page 5
1 Patsy Ramsey.
2 MR. RAMSEY: I am John Ramsey.
3 MS. PAULK: Mahaley Paulk.
4 MR. BAUER: Derek Bauer.
5 MR. SCHROEDER: Eric Schroeder.
6 MR. ALTMAN: Evan Altman, co-counsel
7 with Darnay Hoffman on behalf of Mr. Wolf.
8 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes. And, of course,
9 Darnay Hoffman, lead counsel on the Chris Wolf
10 case.
11 MR. WOOD: And I think we have
12 agreed that this deposition is taken pursuant to
13 the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and that the
14 deposition is taken pursuant to agreement of
15 counsel.
16 Mrs. Ramsey will read and sign, and I
17 am sure that can be undertaken before any notary
18 public.
19 MR. HOFFMAN: Certainly.
20 Also, this is a deposition that is
21 being taken subject to a so-ordered, stipulated
22 protective order also and confidentiality agreement
23 between counsel.
24 MR. WOOD: It is. And in that
25 regard, I want to make just one statement, if I

Page 6
1 may, on the record.
2 MR. HOFFMAN: Sure.
3 MR. WOOD: Federal Rule of Civil
4 Procedure 26(b)(1) states that the scope of
5 discovery is as follows, and I quote:
6 "Parties may obtain discovery regarding
7 any matter not privileged that is relevant to the
8 claim or defense of any party."
9 And it goes on to state:
10 "For good cause, the Court may order
11 discovery of any matter relevant to the subject
12 matter involved in the action."
13 As you know, Darnay, that represents
14 the change that was effectuated in the scope of
15 discovery with the December 2000 amendments to the
16 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. And in the
17 stipulation and protective order in paragraph 2,
18 the parties, including the plaintiff, and you, on
19 behalf of the plaintiff, have agreed that, and I
20 quote from the protective order, "Consistent with
21 the amendments to the Federal Rules of Civil
22 Procedure, which became effective December 1,
23 2000, the parties recognize the right of parties'
24 counsel to issue appropriate instructions to
25 parties during their depositions in order to

Page 7
1 maintain the appropriate scope of discovery as
2 defined in the rules."
3 I make that observation solely because
4 I do not want there to be any subsequent
5 misunderstanding or misrepresentation as to why it
6 may be necessary, during the course of this
7 deposition, for me, as counsel for the Ramseys,
8 to instruct Mrs. Ramsey that a subject that you
9 are inquiring about is beyond the scope of the
10 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.
11 That is to say, you may inquire into
12 something that is relevant to the subject matter,
13 but since there has not been good cause shown and
14 a court order entered, as we have noted in our
15 protective order, the parties have agreed that we
16 would instruct the witness not to answer because
17 it would go beyond the claim or the defense in
18 this action and it would not be in any way a
19 matter of Mrs. Ramsey being unwilling to answer a
20 question. It would simply be a matter of, as you
21 and I know, we don't make the rules. We are
22 simply obligated to play by the rules, and so,
23 therefore, we will obviously play by the rules
24 today. And if we do get outside the relevant
25 scope of discovery, I will exercise my obligation

Page 8
1 as recognized by you to make an instruction to
2 her not to answer the question.
3 Agreed?
4 MR. HOFFMAN: Absolutely.
5 MR. WOOD: Okay.
6 MR. HOFFMAN: And, in fact, what I
7 thought we would do is that, if we run into a
8 roadblock with respect to what is, in fact,
9 relevant or not relevant, what we could do is
10 just simply make a notation for the record, and
11 then I thought that the most prudent thing for
12 everybody to do is, as we are coming to the
13 close of discovery, that almost in like an
14 omnibus motion, both parties could present Judge
15 Carnes with anything that they wanted in the way
16 of an instruction to compel an answer, if
17 appropriate.
18 So if we need to get a judge's
19 ruling on issues or whatever, we will just simply
20 reserve it -- preserve it in the deposition
21 record; and then what we would do is at some
22 future date, just simply go before Judge Carnes
23 and just have her make a one-time ruling on all
24 of our issues and claims and whatever else with
25 respect to discovery, which I think is probably

Page 9
1 the most economical way to do it, and maybe I
2 think Judge Carnes would probably appreciate it if
3 we handled it that way.
4 MR. WOOD: Well, I just don't want
5 the record to be misconstrued that, obviously, we
6 understand that there may be, obviously, a need
7 to, in this deposition, to make the instruction.
8 And it is not to be used against the witness.
9 It is simply a matter of trying to properly
10 follow the rules.
11 And then, if necessary, if someone
12 believes that the witness should have answered,
13 then obviously that party has a right, as that
14 party deems appropriate, to file a motion with
15 Judge Carnes and get a ruling.
16 I think we agree on what we
17 stipulated to, and I think we agree on the scope
18 of the deposition. I don't really think we are
19 going to have a problem. I think you will stay
20 to the issue of the claims made by Mr. Wolf and
21 the defenses made by the Ramseys. And if we
22 don't go beyond that, we are not going to have a
23 problem, I don't believe, on that particular
24 issue.
25 MR. HOFFMAN: Just for the record, so

Page 10
1 there is no misunderstanding later on in the
2 deposition, what precisely do you see the claims
3 as Mr. Wolf is representing them in the complaint
4 for the purposes of establishing relevance here?
5 MR. WOOD: Mr. Wolf has made a
6 claim, as I understand it, that the Ramseys
7 published certain statements in their book that
8 were false pertaining to him, that they published
9 certain statements in their book that were also
10 defamatory with regard to Mr. Wolf. That makes
11 up the first part of his libel claim.
12 And then he contends that they
13 published those statements, false and defamatory,
14 with actual malice. And as I understand the
15 claim, that actual malice is based on the
16 allegation that Patsy Ramsey killed JonBenet and
17 that Mr. Ramsey has been part of a cover-up.
18 The second part of the case, as I
19 understand it, is that, subject to the statute of
20 limitations problems, Mr. Wolf is asserting that
21 the Ramseys hired investigators to give the
22 Boulder police information about Mr. Wolf which
23 inflicted emotional distress upon him.
24 Those are your claims, as I think I
25 clearly understand them. Have I got them right?

Page 11
1 MR. HOFFMAN: Absolutely. The only
2 reason I am asking you to articulate them for the
3 record is so that, if I go into any of these
4 claim areas, you will at least deem them relevant
5 for the purposes of the deposition.
6 MR. WOOD: I will have to deal with
7 that on a question-by-question basis.
8 MR. HOFFMAN: I understand that, but
9 you do understand that if, in fact, one of the
10 claims is that Mrs. Ramsey was somehow involved
11 in either the authorship of the ransom note or in
12 the death of her daughter, that questions
13 involving that are, in fact, relevant for the
14 purposes of the rules?
15 MR. WOOD: I don't have any problem
16 with acknowledging that issues regarding ransom
17 note authorship by Mrs. Ramsey, and the issue of
18 whether she, as contended by you and Mr. Wolf,
19 killed her daughter, are clearly part of Mr.
20 Wolf's lawsuit. And that is part of the burden
21 that Mr. Wolf has to carry to prove that beyond
22 clear and convincing evidence.
23 The point being, though, that there
24 are a host of matters that would go to the
25 subject matter but are not specifically confined

Page 12
1 to those claims and the defenses, the basic
2 defense being truth, that published statements
3 were true, and that, in fact, Mrs. Ramsey was not
4 involved in the criminal death of her daughter.
5 I think the only other defense we
6 have is not something you would be questioning
7 Mrs. Ramsey about, and that might go to the issue
8 of I think the 13th defense and the issue of
9 publicity of the plaintiff.
10 I don't think we are going to have a
11 problem; but, for example, personal private
12 information about the Ramseys' life at present
13 certainly would not be relevant to the claims
14 made.
15 MR. HOFFMAN: No. I agree.
16 MR. WOOD: That is just one example.
17 I want to make sure we protect that on the
18 record. I think we understand where we are
19 headed, so let's get going and get there.
20 PATRICIA RAMSEY, having been first
21 duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
22 EXAMINATION
23 BY-MR.HOFFMAN:
24 Q. Good afternoon -- actually, good
25 morning, Mrs. Ramsey. Thank you for being here.

Page 13
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. You just heard your attorney explain,
3 basically, the claims in this action. Is there
4 anything that you need clarified with respect to
5 what he said before we go forward?
6 MR. WOOD: I don't think she can
7 answer that question.
8 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. I just want to
9 give her the opportunity to --
10 MR. WOOD: We would have to send her
11 to law school and let her go 24 years of
12 practice before we would ask her if she could
13 understand anything I might say.
14 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I
15 believe that you were the coauthor on a book
16 called "the Death of Innocence"; is that
17 correct?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. And I would just like to ask you, in
20 your own words, though I know there is discussion
21 in the book, why it is that you wrote the book
22 "Death of Innocence"?
23 A. My husband and I wrote the book so
24 that we could make sure that the truth was
25 presented accurately from our own hearts and lips.

Page 14
1 Q. Were there any other reasons?
2 A. No, sir.
3 Q. I am going to -- there is a
4 reference on page 408 of your book. I am going
5 to show that to Mr. Lin first.
6 MR. WOOD: Do you want to mark this?
7 MR. HOFFMAN: No. I just simply
8 want to refresh her memory with respect to that.
9 MR. WOOD: This is page 408 of the
10 paperback?
11 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes, with respect to
12 the paperback.
13 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Where there is --
14 MR. WOOD: Are you asking her to
15 look at the highlighted portion?
16 MR. HOFFMAN: The highlighted portion
17 there, just to refresh her memory with respect to
18 maybe another reason why the book was written.
19 MR. WOOD: You are not representing
20 that this paragraph talks about why the book was
21 written?
22 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, it is one of the
23 express reasons for going into the material that
24 was gone into there with the hope that the killer
25 will be caught; the truth being that the Ramseys,

Page 15
1 contrary to media reports, were not responsible
2 for their daughter's death, and that this book,
3 in fact, not only shows that, but also the book
4 contains a chapter on the murderer, meaning that
5 there is a profile of the potential murderer.
6 And I wanted to know from Mrs. Ramsey
7 whether the purpose of the book was something
8 more than just a general, you wanted the truth
9 out.
10 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Was the purpose of
11 the book also to present information to the
12 public who might then be able to come forward as
13 to who the murderer was in this particular case?
14 MR. WOOD: That doesn't have anything
15 to do with page 408.
16 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, it is mentioned
17 there. That is one of the stated goals.
18 MR. WOOD: We may just be parsing
19 words. This talks about their goals, bringing the
20 killer to justice.
21 MR. HOFFMAN: Right.
22 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Was this part of
23 your goal?
24 MR. WOOD: Was the book consistent
25 with part of your goals? I think that is a

Page 16
1 fair question.
2 THE WITNESS: So could you repeat the
3 question?
4 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) You will be asking
5 me to do a lot of that today. Believe me.
6 Was one of the goals of writing the
7 book to help in the solution of this crime,
8 identifying the possible murderer; meaning that if
9 you put this information before the public, that
10 maybe someone would have information that could
11 then come forward --
12 MR. WOOD: Objection.
13 MR. HOFFMAN: You object?
14 MR. WOOD: I object to the form of
15 the question, but go ahead and finish. I thought
16 you were through.
17 MR. HOFFMAN: I would like Mrs.
18 Ramsey to explain whether or not that was part of
19 the goal of the book was basically to assist in
20 finding the killer of JonBenet Ramsey.
21 THE WITNESS: Well, I believe there
22 was a section of the book that talks about the
23 profile of the killer, as we have been told about
24 him. So that information, yes, was included in
25 the book to be brought forth to the public in

Page 17
1 the event that that would assist in someone
2 remembering things that would lead us to leads
3 that would lead us to the killer.
4 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) So would it be
5 fair to say that the purpose of the book was to
6 do something other than just simply tell the
7 truth about the case, that there was -- that you
8 were trying to assist the investigation in some
9 way by including certain information in the book,
10 such as the profile of the murderer?
11 A. The reason that I wrote the book is
12 so that there is in one place, in black and
13 white, an accurate account of what happened.
14 I mean, when I was writing it, I was
15 thinking of my children and my grandchildren.
16 There are so many stories out there that are
17 false and misleading and untrue, I wanted -- you
18 know, I was thinking of this as a historical
19 document to give to my children.
20 Q. Could you explain, to the best that
21 you remember, the process by which you wrote the
22 book? I mean, did you sit down with a pen and
23 pad or did you use a Dictaphone? How was the
24 book written, given that both you and John are
25 listed as authors, the actual writing process?

Page 18
1 MR. WOOD: I object to the form of
2 the question.
3 You may answer the question, if you
4 understand it.
5 The problem is you kind of sometimes
6 ask two or three questions within one.
7 MR. HOFFMAN: I understand.
8 MR. WOOD: I want her to be clear on
9 exactly what the question is. I think, correct
10 me if I am wrong, I think he is trying to find
11 out whether you actually physically typed on a
12 computer, dictated into a tape, made handwritten
13 notes.
14 Is that what you are asking?
15 MR. HOFFMAN: Exactly.
16 MR. WOOD: Do you understand that?
17 THE WITNESS: I think we did some of
18 all of that.
19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Did you and Mr.
20 Ramsey sit physically together and write the book,
21 or did you write it in separate, you know,
22 environments, meaning you are in one part of the
23 house and he is in another part? Did you
24 compose it that way?
25 A. Some of all of that. We were living

Page 19
1 in an apartment at the time, so it was a small
2 living space. So we were --
3 Q. At some point, I believe there was --
4 well, I will withdraw that question.
5 Did anyone else assist you in writing
6 the book?
7 A. We had an editor that was provided by
8 the publisher and a ghost writer, if you want to
9 call it that, who helped us with some of the
10 structure and organization.
11 Q. Who is the ghost writer?
12 A. I think his name is in the book
13 there somewhere. Let's see. Oh, Robert Wise,
14 Reverend Robert Wise.
15 Q. When you looked at the final
16 manuscript of the book, was it very different
17 from what you had originally prepared and given
18 to Mr. Wise, or Reverend Wise?
19 MR. WOOD: Are you assuming they
20 prepared a manuscript and gave to it Wise and
21 then got back a manuscript?
22 MR. HOFFMAN: At some point, I am
23 assuming that their work product was turned into
24 a manuscript of some sort and that Mr. Wise
25 worked with it in some way.

Page 20
1 MR. WOOD: Well, I am not sure that
2 is right. It may have been given to him
3 piecemeal, Darnay. I think you need to figure
4 that out first.
5 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I will withdraw
6 that question and ask you very simply, explain
7 exactly how you worked with Reverend Wise on
8 writing the book.
9 A. Well, he would sit, and we would
10 talk. I had some things that I had written, and
11 sometimes he would ask questions about things.
12 It was kind of a back and forth. Sometimes he
13 would take something I had written and edit, and
14 then would -- I mean, it was kind of an evolving
15 process.
16 Q. Did he use a tape recorder to tape
17 any of the things you were saying?
18 A. I believe so, yes.
19 Q. Did you give him written notes to
20 look at?
21 A. I can't remember exactly. I don't --
22 Q. Did you prepare notes for the book,
23 written notes?
24 A. Yes. Sometimes -- I mean, I had
25 some things I had written and some things we

Page 21
1 just talked about.
2 Q. Did you keep copies of your notes?
3 A. No, I did not.
4 Q. Do you know what happened to your
5 notes?
6 A. They were thrown away as I finished
7 with that part of the writing.
8 Q. You threw them away?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were you shown a copy of what we
11 would call the rough draft of the book before it
12 was sent to the publisher?
13 A. There were many drafts, yes, that we
14 would keep reviewing.
15 Q. Who would prepare the drafts?
16 A. A typist, I think, or the editor,
17 perhaps. She kept a main manuscript going.
18 Q. A main file?
19 A. I am not sure how she did it, but
20 she would keep it.
21 Q. Were you given an opportunity to
22 review the final manuscript before it was sent to
23 the publisher?
24 A. I believe so. I believe so.
25 Q. Do you remember reviewing?

Page 22
1 A. Not specifically. I mean, there were
2 so many iterations, I can't remember exactly
3 which.
4 Q. When was the first time you had an
5 opportunity to read the book from beginning to
6 end as it was published?
7 MR. WOOD: After it was published?
8 MR. HOFFMAN: In the form in which
9 it was published.
10 MR. WOOD: Like the galleys?
11 MR. HOFFMAN: It could have been a
12 galley. I don't know at what point --
13 THE WITNESS: You mean the hardback
14 book?
15 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) The hardback book,
16 yes.
17 A. Probably when it was completely
18 published in March of 2000.
19 Q. Did you see anything that looked like
20 what they call galleys?
21 A. I don't think I saw galleys.
22 Q. So the first time you actually were
23 able to read the book, then, is when it appeared
24 in hard cover in the actual bound, hard-covered
25 issue?

Page 23
1 A. Well, I read the manuscript. I don't
2 know if you call that the book.
3 Q. So there was a manuscript, a completed
4 manuscript that you were able to read before it
5 was sent to the printer; is that correct?
6 A. I believe so.
7 Q. Did you review it?
8 A. I believe I did.
9 Q. And did you look at portions of it
10 in terms of statements that were accurate or not
11 accurate?
12 A. Well, I primarily -- the way the book
13 is written, I speak, John speaks, I speak, John
14 speaks. And I was mainly concentrating on what I
15 had put in the book.
16 Q. Do you remember, in the book, whether
17 or not there is a theory of the crime that was
18 -- as you believed it may have been committed
19 talked about in the book, written about?
20 A. I am not sure what you mean.
21 Q. The book contains a theory of the
22 crime. Do you remember what the theory of the
23 crime was in the book?
24 MR. WOOD: Why don't you show her
25 what you are talking about in the book.

Page 24
1 THE WITNESS: I mean, the whole book
2 is --
3 MR. WOOD: There may be a number of
4 different theories that are discussed in whole or
5 in part.
6 MR. HOFFMAN: I just want to see
7 what she remembers.
8 MR. WOOD: We are not here to engage
9 in a memory contest about what is or is not in
10 the book. If you have a question about something
11 that is in the book, I think, fairly, you are
12 required to put it in front of her, give her the
13 opportunity to look at it, put it into context,
14 and then respond to your question.
15 So if there is something in the book,
16 be it theory or whatever, show her what you want
17 her to look at, and she will be glad to answer
18 your question.
19 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to test her
20 memory right now.
21 MR. WOOD: We are not going to
22 engage in a memory contest of what is in the
23 book.
24 MR. HOFFMAN: It is not a memory
25 contest. I have a right to see what, if

Page 25
1 anything, Mrs. Ramsey currently remembers about
2 the theory of the crime.
3 MR. WOOD: That is a different
4 question. You are asking her about what is in the
5 book, and she is entitled, and you know she is
6 entitled, to see what you are referencing in the
7 book, put it into context, and then answer your
8 question.
9 MR. HOFFMAN: Mrs. Ramsey, I am going
10 to withdraw the question.
11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I would like you
12 to tell me what, if anything, you can remember
13 about the theory of the crime that you may have
14 developed over time.
15 A. Someone was in our home the night of
16 December 25th and murdered our daughter while we
17 slept.
18 Q. Is there anything more about that
19 theory that you remember or have developed?
20 A. Well, that is basically it. There
21 was someone who is not a member of our family in
22 our home that night, took JonBenet from her bed,
23 and murdered her.
24 Q. With respect to that theory of the
25 crime, is there anything else that you can

Page 26
1 remember about it?
2 MR. WOOD: What do you mean is there
3 anything else she can remember about it?
4 MR. HOFFMAN: Remember about that
5 night as far as it leading to developing that
6 theory.
7 MR. WOOD: I am going to have to --
8 that is a question that is either so vague or so
9 broad -- you are asking her now to say, is there
10 anything she can remember about that night that
11 would lead to her developing that theory?
12 Why don't you ask her a specific
13 question, Darnay. That is too broad and too
14 vague.
15 MR. HOFFMAN: All right.
16 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) What is it about
17 the events of that evening and the next day that
18 has led you to this theory of the crime?
19 A. I found a ransom note. I found my
20 daughter missing from her bedroom. And several
21 hours later, our daughter was found dead in our
22 home. That is pretty clear to make one draw the
23 conclusion that someone came into our home and
24 murdered her.
25 Q. And you don't feel it was a member

Page 27
1 of your own family; is that correct?
2 A. No, sir.
3 MR. WOOD: I think your answer is
4 really "yes, sir." "Is that correct" would
5 require a "yes" response, so that the record is
6 clear.
7 Don't we agree, Darnay?
8 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes, that is fine.
9 THE WITNESS: It was not a member of
10 my family.
11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I am going to take
12 just a short break because I am going to go into
13 another area. I just wanted to sort of generally
14 establish it. So let's take a one- or two-minute
15 break. I know people can't hop up or whatever.
16 MR. WOOD: We don't mind moving.
17 MR. HOFFMAN: No need to. Just a
18 natural break.
19 MR. WOOD: Off the video, too?
20 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes.
21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the
22 video record at 9:39.
23 (A recess was taken.)
24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the
25 video record at 9:49.

Page 28
1 MR. HOFFMAN: Mrs. Ramsey, Lin, I
2 want to proceed when you are ready.
3 MR. WOOD: Absolutely. Go right
4 ahead.
5 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Okay. Mrs. Ramsey,
6 I would like you to look at page 407 of the
7 paperback edition of your book, "the Death of
8 Innocence." I have highlighted a section I would
9 like you to read, which begins number 4 and then,
10 "The ransom note."
11 Could you read that, please, for the
12 record.
13 A. "4. The ransom note. Considered
14 earlier and throughout the book, the note was
15 written by the killer and remains an extremely
16 important clue. An adequate amount of handwriting
17 samples from the killer should conclusively tie
18 him to the long and rambling note."
19 Q. Mrs. Ramsey, do you still agree with
20 that statement?
21 A. I am not sure which statement.
22 Q. The statement you just read in your
23 book, do you still agree with it?
24 A. Well, it is my belief that whoever
25 wrote the ransom note probably had something to

Page 29
1 do with her murder. Is that what you are asking
2 me?
3 Q. Yes, I am. I just want to know --
4 I know this book was written a couple of years
5 ago, and I just want to determine whether it is
6 still your belief, that this statement is still
7 your belief, that you believe this statement to
8 be true today?
9 A. Yes, I believe that. Yes, I believe
10 that.
11 Q. Now I would like you to turn to page
12 145 of "the Death of Innocence," the paperback
13 edition of it, and I would like you to please
14 read out loud starting where it is highlighted "A
15 week and a half after the first of February."
16 If you could, read that, please.
17 A. "A week and a half after the first
18 of February, the Denver Post ran an interesting
19 observation on the handwritten ransom note that
20 Douglas had spoken about on Dateline. The paper
21 said: 'Leaving a handwritten document at the
22 scene of the crime, in most cases, is tantamount
23 to leaving one's calling card. Bradley and other
24 forensic document examiners say that it is nearly
25 impossible for a person to disguise handwriting so

Page 30
1 that an expert can't link a suspect to a
2 document, such as the note found in the Ramsey
3 home. The older a person is, the more automatic
4 and difficult it becomes to conceal the clues.
5 And the longer a document is, the harder it
6 becomes to disguise one's writing.'"
7 Q. Thank you. Do you agree with that
8 statement?
9 MR. WOOD: For clarification, does she
10 agree that that is what the Denver Post said, or
11 are you asking her --
12 MR. HOFFMAN: I am not asking her if
13 that is what the Denver Post said because they
14 are indicating in the book.
15 MR. WOOD: Right.
16 MR. HOFFMAN: I just want to know if
17 she agrees -- just because the statement is in
18 here doesn't necessarily mean she agrees with it.
19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I would just like,
20 for clarification, do you agree with that
21 statement?
22 MR. WOOD: Or has any understanding
23 of who Bradley is, for example.
24 MR. HOFFMAN: I am not really
25 concerned whether she knows who Bradley is. I

Page 31
1 just want to know if she agrees with the
2 statement that "leaving a handwritten document at
3 the scene of the crime in most cases is
4 tantamount to leaving one's calling card." And
5 also, the --
6 MR. WOOD: Do them one at a time.
7 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Start with that.
8 Do you agree with that statement?
9 A. Well, I have been told that this is
10 the ransom note of ransom notes, the longest that
11 people have ever seen, and that it is a lot of
12 information for discovering someone's handwriting,
13 so I don't know if it "is tantamount to leaving
14 a calling card."
15 Q. I was wondering why you had put this
16 statement in this book, if you don't agree with
17 it?
18 A. I didn't say I didn't agree with it.
19 MR. WOOD: I am not sure that is her
20 statement. Again, going back, looking in context
21 to who writes this.
22 THE WITNESS: This was something that
23 was in the newspaper.
24 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I know, but it was
25 included in the book for some purpose, and I am

Page 32
1 assuming, reading it -- and I don't want to make
2 an assumption, but I can only assume reading it
3 that it is put here because you agree with the
4 basic premise of the article, or at least the
5 basic premise of the section that is excerpted
6 for this.
7 MR. WOOD: What is the question?
8 MR. HOFFMAN: I just want to know if
9 she agrees with the first sentence, "Leaving a
10 handwriting document at the scene of the crime in
11 most cases is tantamount to leaving one's calling
12 card."
13 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Do you agree with
14 that statement?
15 MR. WOOD: With all due respect, I
16 think she has given you an answer to that exact
17 question.
18 MR. HOFFMAN: I wasn't certain that
19 she had.
20 MR. WOOD: Let me make sure. I
21 don't want you to not get an answer.
22 MR. HOFFMAN: I mean, it would be
23 consistent with the earlier statement on page 407
24 about "an extremely important clue."
25 MR. WOOD: I thought she did answer

Page 33
1 that. She said: "I had been told that this is
2 the ransom note of ransom notes, the longest that
3 people have seen, that it is a lot of information
4 for discovering someone's handwriting, so I don't
5 know if it is tantamount to leaving a calling
6 card." I mean, that is what she said.
7 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, if she could say
8 yes or no, it would be very helpful.
9 MR. WOOD: That would be, but it
10 would only be if it were the only answer she
11 could give. I think she is entitled to give you
12 her full answer, including an explanation.
13 I think she told you she doesn't
14 disagree with it, but the use of the phrase
15 "leaving a calling card" she is not in the
16 position to comment on.
17 THE WITNESS: A calling card would
18 have been better because it would have had the
19 person's name, address, and phone number.
20 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I was curious as
21 to why this had been put in the book, if you
22 remember. Do you know why this statement was
23 included in the book, the one you just read,
24 "Leaving a handwritten document at the scene of a
25 crime"?

Page 34
1 A. Well, I don't remember exactly. It
2 has been a couple of years.
3 Q. If you remember.
4 A. Well, I don't remember exactly why we
5 put it in here. I believe this is a section
6 that John wrote, so you might want to ask him
7 that.
8 Q. Were you ever asked to give
9 handwriting exemplars at any time by anyone after
10 your daughter's death?
11 A. Yes, I was.
12 Q. Can you tell me who asked you to do
13 that, not violating any attorney-client privilege?
14 A. The Boulder Police Department.
15 Q. Did anyone else ask you to give
16 handwriting exemplars besides the Boulder Police
17 Department?
18 A. I gave several of them. I believe
19 it all had to do with the Boulder Police
20 Department. Whether it was the CBI or --
21 Q. But nobody other than law enforcement
22 asked you to give them handwriting exemplars; is
23 that true?
24 A. I don't remember anyone else asking
25 me.

Page 35
1 Q. I just want to clarify. Do you
2 remember how many times you were asked to give
3 handwriting exemplars by the law enforcement
4 people, authorities? And I am assuming it is in
5 Colorado.
6 A. Yes. I -- five or six, I think.
7 Something like that.
8 Q. In the back of the book, Appendix A,
9 page 428 -- actually, you can identify it as 429.
10 It doesn't have 428 in the upper left-hand
11 corner. It is called "A Chronicle of Cooperation."
12 The paragraph that is second from the bottom,
13 there is an indication when handwriting samples
14 were given by John, and there are dates, and then
15 Patsy, and there are dates, and then Burke, and
16 there are dates.
17 Would you just review that and see if
18 that refreshes your recollection with respect to
19 the dates? Are those dates accurate or
20 substantially accurate, if you can remember?
21 A. I am sure they probably are.
22 Q. And I am counting them. There is a
23 date "December 28, January 4, February 28, April
24 12, and May 20." That is one, two, three, four
25 -- it looks like five.

Page 36
1 Is that what you remember --
2 A. That seems to be fairly --
3 Q. -- as to the number of times?
4 A. -- fairly accurate, yes.
5 Q. Were you ever given an explanation by
6 law enforcement authorities as to why they were
7 asking you to come in so many times to give
8 exemplars, why they needed you to give exemplars
9 over a period of five different dates?
10 A. I don't remember them really saying
11 why they needed more.
12 Q. Did anyone else, without telling me
13 what was actually said, give you a reason as to
14 why you were being asked for so many exemplars?
15 MR. WOOD: And here you are not to
16 give him, nor is he asking you to give him any
17 information about any discussion you had between
18 yourself and your attorneys, if there was any
19 such discussion. He is not entitled to know
20 that, and he is not asking you about that.
21 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Was there anybody
22 else?
23 For instance, maybe Lou Smit may have
24 asked you, maybe somebody from Alex Hunter's
25 office might have asked you or told you or

Page 37
1 whatever, something that is not a privileged
2 communication between you and your attorneys, if
3 you remember.
4 A. No. Just every time they asked me
5 to do it, I willingly gave it.
6 Q. Now I am going to ask you about your
7 reaction to it. Were you surprised that you were
8 asked for so many exemplars, to come back five
9 times, in fact? Were you surprised by that?
10 A. Somewhat, yes.
11 Q. Were you concerned about that?
12 A. I was not concerned, particularly.
13 Q. Do you know if anybody at any time
14 expressed an opinion as to whether you were the
15 author of the ransom note while you were doing
16 this?
17 A. During the handwriting exemplar
18 process?
19 Q. Yes. When you were being asked to
20 give handwriting exemplars, did anybody in law
21 enforcement express the opinion that they thought
22 you were the ransom note writer?
23 A. I don't recall them ever saying that.
24 Q. Do you know whether or not anybody
25 ever expressed the opinion in front of you that

Page 38
1 John was the ransom note writer?
2 A. I never heard anyone say that.
3 Q. Now, what I am going to do is I need
4 some -- we are going to go through a little
5 housekeeping. I am sorry. I just have to do
6 this for purposes of laying foundations.
7 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to ask you
8 to mark these as exhibits.
9 And, Lin, I am going to give you a
10 copy.
11 MR. WOOD: Okay.
12 MR. HOFFMAN: This is for
13 identification purposes.
14 Lin, if you want to look at that.
15 MR. WOOD: Is there a way to relate
16 this to the exhibits that we have --
17 MR. HOFFMAN: What I am going to do
18 is, basically, I would like to show these to Mrs.
19 Ramsey at this time and ask her in a foundational
20 way, one, whether she recognizes what she is
21 being shown, can she identify it, and can she
22 identify the handwriting.
23 MR. WOOD: Are these the exhibits
24 that are attached to the first set of --
25 MR. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh (affirmative).

Page 39
1 MR. WOOD: Do you have them by
2 exhibit number so I can correlate?
3 MR. HOFFMAN: No, I don't. Right
4 now I am doing it in a particular order, which
5 doesn't relate to that. Whether these are
6 ultimately used or not is another matter,
7 but right now I would like to mark this as
8 Exhibit 1.
9 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-1 was marked for
10 identification.)
11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I am
12 going to show you a document that has been marked
13 Plaintiff's Exhibit 1 for identification. I would
14 like you to look at it and take your time. I
15 am going to ask you if you recognize the
16 photograph.
17 MR. WOOD: Let me just say this for
18 the record, Darnay. I think you have given her
19 an enlarged copy of what was possibly one of the
20 exhibits to one of the reports that you filed
21 early in the case with respect to your mandatory
22 responses. And I think she has answered in
23 request for admissions to her best ability whether
24 she could decipher from those copies whether she
25 was the author of the handwriting.

Page 40
1 To the extent that you are giving her
2 the same exhibits but in a different form, either
3 larger or in color versus black and white, et
4 cetera, I just want to make sure that, if there
5 is any confusion down the road between her
6 ability to try to decipher it now and what she
7 looked at then, that that might be the
8 explanation.
9 So that is why I had asked if you
10 wanted to present her with the actual exhibits;
11 that would, I think, help us be able to look at
12 the same thing.
13 MR. HOFFMAN: I basically want her to
14 be able to see what it is. I am looking for
15 content, not --
16 MR. WOOD: Not comparison with other
17 copies of those from other sources.
18 MR. HOFFMAN: I want her to indicate
19 whether she recognizes the photograph.
20 MR. WOOD: That is fair.
21 THE WITNESS: I think I have seen
22 this photograph before.
23 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Can you identify,
24 without naming anybody in the photograph, can you
25 identify any of the individuals in the photograph?

Page 41
1 A. Just JonBenet.
2 Q. I would like you to now look at the
3 handwriting below the photograph. Do you
4 recognize the handwriting?
5 A. Not particularly.
6 Q. You say "not particularly." You don't
7 recognize this as being your handwriting; is that
8 correct?
9 A. I don't remember writing it. Is that
10 what you mean? I mean, I don't know. I may
11 have, but --
12 Q. Do you recognize the handwriting as
13 being your handwriting?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay. Now we are going to go to
16 another exhibit.
17 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-2 was marked for
18 identification.)
19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I
20 would like you to examine a document I have given
21 you that has been labeled Plaintiff's Exhibit 2
22 for identification and ask you if you recognize
23 any of the photographs in the document.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I am going to ask you if you

Page 42
1 recognize any of the handwriting in the document.
2 A. Recognize it as mine or someone else's
3 or just --
4 Q. I will go to the next question. Do
5 you recognize any of the handwriting as being
6 your handwriting?
7 A. Not particularly.
8 Q. So you couldn't say, with any degree
9 of certainty, that that was your handwriting?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. HOFFMAN: Lin, I don't know what
13 you are doing with those.
14 MR. WOOD: You took the last one
15 back.
16 MR. HOFFMAN: Fine. Sorry about
17 this. This is one of the more boring parts of
18 depositions.
19 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-3 was marked for
20 identification.)
21 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Now, Mrs. Ramsey, I
22 am going to ask you to look at Plaintiff's
23 Exhibit 3 marked for identification and ask you
24 whether or not you recognize this document.
25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 43
1 Q. What do you recognize it to be?
2 A. An entry form for the Boulder
3 Christmas parade.
4 Q. Have you ever seen this entry form
5 before today?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you tell me when you have seen
8 it, if you remember?
9 A. Well, I obviously saw it to fill it
10 out.
11 Q. Okay. That was my next question.
12 Do you recognize the handwriting in this entry
13 form?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Can you tell me whose handwriting you
16 recognize it to be?
17 A. My handwriting.
18 Q. So all of the handwriting on both
19 pages is your handwriting; is that correct? I
20 mean, no one else --
21 A. Well, this on the second page is
22 pretty blurry, but I believe it is mine.
23 Q. So nobody at this event filled in
24 part of it for you?
25 A. No.

Page 44
1 Q. You filled this in completely
2 yourself; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. Now I am going to show you another
5 document which I am going to have the reporter
6 mark as Plaintiff's Exhibit 4 for identification.
7 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-4 was marked for
8 identification.)
9 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Now, Mrs. Ramsey, I
10 am going to ask you to look at a document that
11 I handed you which has been marked Plaintiff's
12 Exhibit 4 for identification. I am going to ask
13 you whether or not you recognize this document.
14 A. No, I don't.
15 Q. I am going to ask you if you
16 recognize the handwriting on the document.
17 A. I recognize my signature.
18 Q. Do you recognize any other written
19 part of the document as being your handwriting?
20 A. It looks similar, but I can't say for
21 sure.
22 Q. So are you uncertain as to whether
23 the additional handwriting is yours or not,
24 outside of the signature?
25 A. I am uncertain.

Page 45
1 Q. Okay. Thank you.
2 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to ask the
3 reporter to mark this as Plaintiff's Exhibit 5
4 for identification.
5 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-5 was marked for
6 identification.)
7 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Now, Mrs. Ramsey, I
8 am going to ask you to look at a document which
9 has been labeled Plaintiff's Exhibit 5 for
10 identification. And I am going to ask you
11 whether or not you recognize it.
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. What do you recognize it to be?
14 A. It looks like a greeting written on
15 the inside of a Christmas card.
16 Q. Do you remember writing a Christmas
17 card like this?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I am going to ask you whether or not
20 you can identify the handwriting.
21 A. Yes, I can.
22 Q. Can you tell me whose handwriting you
23 believe it to be?
24 A. Mine.
25 Q. Thank you very much.

Page 46
1 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to ask the
2 reporter to please mark this document Plaintiff's
3 Exhibit 6 for identification. It is two pages, I
4 believe.
5 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-6 was marked for
6 identification.)
7 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I am going to ask
8 you, Mrs. Ramsey, whether or not you can identify
9 the document that I have handed you, which is
10 marked Plaintiff's Exhibit 6 for identification.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you tell me what the document is?
13 A. It is a handwritten note.
14 Q. Can you identify the handwriting?
15 A. Yes. It is my handwriting.
16 Q. Thank you very much.
17 MR. HOFFMAN: Now I am going to ask
18 the reporter to please mark this as Plaintiff's
19 Exhibit 7 for identification.
20 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-7 was marked for
21 identification.)
22 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I
23 would like to know if you could identify the
24 document or, actually, the image or figure on
25 Plaintiff's Exhibit 7 marked for identification.

Page 47
1 A. No, I can't.
2 Q. I am going to ask you to look at the
3 handwriting and tell me if you can recognize the
4 handwriting.
5 A. This is such a bad copy. Do you
6 have the original?
7 Q. No, I don't. If you can't recognize
8 the handwriting, you simply say you cannot.
9 A. I cannot.
10 Q. Thank you very much.
11 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to ask the
12 court reporter to mark this document Plaintiff's
13 Exhibit 8 for identification.
14 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-8 was marked for
15 identification.)
16 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I am going to
17 direct Mrs. Ramsey's attention to the writing that
18 looks like it is on a box that says "Ramsey
19 Xmas" and also, it looks like, some writing on
20 the lower right-hand side which just says
21 "Ramsey."
22 I am going to ask you to look at
23 that carefully, and I am going to ask her, first
24 of all, if she can identify to the best of her
25 ability what is in this photograph.

Page 48
1 A. It looks like pictures of boxes taken
2 through a window pane.
3 Q. Now, I am going to ask you if you
4 can recognize any of the handwriting.
5 A. This lower one may be mine, but I am
6 not sure.
7 Q. And the upper left, which says,
8 "Ramsey Xmas"?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. So you don't recognize it as being
11 your handwriting?
12 A. Not specifically, no.
13 Q. Thank you. Coming to the end.
14 MR. HOFFMAN: I would like the
15 reporter to mark that as Plaintiff's Exhibit 9
16 for identification.
17 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-9 was marked for
18 identification.)
19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I am
20 going to ask you -- I am not going to even try
21 to ask you what you are looking at. I am going
22 to ask you if you can see any of the handwriting
23 in this document.
24 MR. WOOD: Is that an admission that
25 nobody can even determine what the object is?

Page 49
1 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, the objects would
2 be subject -- one looks like a box on the lower
3 part, but I am not going to ask Mrs. Ramsey to
4 determine it. I am going to ask Mrs. Ramsey if
5 she can make out the handwriting. And if she
6 can, can she, with any degree of certainty, tell
7 me if she recognizes any of the handwriting.
8 THE WITNESS: It is pretty hard to
9 tell.
10 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) You can simply say
11 no or you are not certain.
12 A. No.
13 Q. All right. Thank you.
14 A. If I can see the original, maybe.
15 Q. I understand, but based on this
16 document, you are not able to determine?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Thank you very much.
19 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to ask the
20 reporter to mark this as Plaintiff's Exhibit 10
21 for identification.
22 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-10 was marked for
23 identification.)
24 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, what I
25 am showing you is a series of letters. I am

Page 50
1 not identifying their source. I am just simply
2 showing you a series of letters. I would like
3 you to look at them carefully.
4 Again, this is Plaintiff's Exhibit 10
5 for identification.
6 Can you, without knowing the source or
7 where these letters are from, identify any of
8 them?
9 A. No, sir.
10 Q. Now, I would like you to also look
11 at the letters and ask me if you see any
12 similarities in the way in which these letters
13 are written. And we will just start from the
14 bottom. Looking at the B.
15 A. Ask you if I see any similarities?
16 Q. No. I am going to ask you to
17 comment on whether you see any similarities in
18 the handwriting.
19 MR. WOOD: Let me just ask you,
20 Darnay, Patsy Ramsey is not a questioned document
21 examiner.
22 MR. HOFFMAN: I just want her
23 personal observation.
24 MR. WOOD: We don't know what
25 alterations have been done to these documents. I

Page 51
1 know where these documents came from. They came
2 from one of your experts.
3 MR. HOFFMAN: I would prefer you
4 don't identify the source --
5 MR. WOOD: Why not? She is entitled
6 to be --
7 MR. HOFFMAN: -- for the purpose of
8 this.
9 MR. WOOD: We are not here to play
10 games.
11 MR. HOFFMAN: No, no.
12 MR. WOOD: Let me finish, Darnay.
13 MR. HOFFMAN: Mr. Wood --
14 MR. WOOD: Let me finish, please.
15 MR. HOFFMAN: Mr. Wood, you can't
16 have a standing objection where you basically
17 counsel, give information to your client in your
18 objection, which is what you are doing right now.
19 I would like you to stop it.
20 MR. WOOD: Darnay.
21 MR. HOFFMAN: I have a right to show
22 her a document. For all you know, I am trying
23 to test her perception. You don't know what I
24 am doing in this.
25 MR. WOOD: Her perception --

Page 52
1 MR. HOFFMAN: I am not saying that
2 this means anything. I am asking her to look at
3 these letters, ask her if she recognizes any of
4 them, and then after doing that, asking her if
5 she can perceive any similarities in these
6 letters. That is all. Just as a lay person,
7 her personal observation. And I have a right to
8 do that. And I am going to ask her to do it.
9 MR. WOOD: I am not --
10 MR. HOFFMAN: I don't have to
11 identify the source. This could be an eye chart,
12 for all you know.
13 MR. WOOD: Darnay --
14 MR. HOFFMAN: For all you know, I am
15 testing her perception.
16 MR. WOOD: Darnay, it is not an eye
17 chart. It is a document that you --
18 MR. HOFFMAN: No, it is not. Don't
19 identify the document, Mr. Wood.
20 MR. WOOD: Are you going to let me
21 finish, Darnay?
22 MR. HOFFMAN: Not if you are going
23 to identify --
24 MR. WOOD: Let's take a break.
25 MR. HOFFMAN: Not if you are going

Page 53
1 to have a standing objection.
2 MR. WOOD: We are going to take a
3 break now, and then I'll come back. And when I
4 get a chance to make my statement on the record
5 to perfect the record, we will start again. But
6 if are you not going to give me that fundamental
7 right, then we are not going to start again,
8 Darnay. Do you understand me? Because you are
9 not the judge.
10 MR. HOFFMAN: If you want to stop
11 the deposition --
12 MR. WOOD: Let me finish.
13 MR. HOFFMAN: If you want to stop
14 the --
15 MR. WOOD: If you don't stop
16 interrupting me, we are going to have to stop.
17 MR. HOFFMAN: I have to interrupt you
18 if you are, in fact, going to give your client
19 information that you are not supposed to give
20 your client while I am asking her a specific
21 question, which is what you are trying to do
22 right now, at least in my opinion.
23 MR. WOOD: No, I am not.
24 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes, you are.
25 MR. WOOD: You don't know what I am

Page 54
1 trying to do, because you won't let me do it.
2 MR. HOFFMAN: You are trying to
3 identify the source of this, and I don't want you
4 to do that for the purposes of this question.
5 MR. WOOD: We are going to take a
6 break now, and when I have the ability to make
7 my record without interruption and instruction
8 from you --
9 MR. HOFFMAN: I would like you to
10 make the colloquy.
11 MR. WOOD: You are not going to stop
12 interrupting; are you?
13 MR. HOFFMAN: I am not going to
14 basically let you give your client information in
15 a standing objection.
16 MR. WOOD: Darnay, Darnay, if I make
17 a statement on the record that is inappropriate,
18 you may take that up with Judge Carnes, and Judge
19 Carnes can determine whether I have
20 inappropriately instructed my client through an
21 objection. But you are not the judge, and you
22 are not going to make that decision today. You
23 have the right to say what you want to on this
24 record. I have that right, also.
25 So when you decide that we are going

Page 55
1 to play on that level playing field, let's get
2 started again. But you are not going to sit
3 here and be the judge and tell me what I am
4 going to do or not do, whether you like it or
5 agree with it or not.
6 MR. HOFFMAN: Mr. Wood --
7 MR. WOOD: So we are now going to go
8 off the record and take a break.
9 MR. HOFFMAN: Mr. Wood, for the
10 purposes of -- before we go off the record and
11 take a break, I foresaw this as a possible
12 stumbling block or speed bump, and as a result,
13 Evan Altman was kind enough to call Judge Carnes'
14 office, and she is willing, in a phone call, to
15 make an immediate ruling on whether or not what I
16 am asking Mrs. Ramsey to do is proper and whether
17 or not your objection is proper. She is in her
18 office. She is available for an immediate
19 conference.
20 MR. WOOD: I have not been allowed
21 to make my statement. And if we want to address
22 with Judge Carnes at this point --
23 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes.
24 MR. WOOD: Excuse me. If the issue
25 to be addressed with Judge Carnes is whether I am

Page 56
1 allowed to make an objection without interruption
2 from you, then I will be happy to take that up
3 with Judge Carnes.
4 If we are going to take up an
5 objection of mine with Judge Carnes, I think I
6 fairly ought to have the right to state it on
7 the record.
8 MR. HOFFMAN: But I would like you
9 to make the statement to Judge Carnes before you
10 make a statement in front of your client on the
11 record basically notifying your client of
12 precisely what it is that I am doing with respect
13 to this, which I don't want you to do.
14 MR. WOOD: I don't know what you are
15 doing with this. I am not trying to make a
16 representation of that.
17 MR. HOFFMAN: Let's talk to Judge
18 Carnes. Because we went through enough trouble
19 to establish, to call her office yesterday and
20 see if she was available for a conference,
21 because I foresaw this problem precisely coming
22 up.
23 MR. WOOD: I yet to understand what
24 you want to take up with Judge Carnes.
25 MR. HOFFMAN: Let's call her. I

Page 57
1 will tell her. Quite frankly, I am going to ask
2 her whether or not -- I am going to have you
3 state your objection that you are going to give
4 on the record to her on the phone, and we are
5 going to find out whether or not she thinks it
6 is proper for you to make that objection.
7 And then if she rules it is proper
8 to make it in that form, you can make it in
9 that form.
10 MR. WOOD: So you want me to state
11 my objection for the first time on the phone with
12 Judge Carnes?
13 MR. HOFFMAN: That is correct.
14 MR. WOOD: So you are going to call
15 Judge Carnes -- excuse me.
16 You are going to call Judge Carnes to
17 address with her an objection that you think is
18 inappropriate that I haven't even been allowed to
19 make yet?
20 MR. HOFFMAN: No. You started to
21 make it, and it was clear from your making it
22 what you were trying to do, which is basically
23 make the equivalent of a standing -- you were
24 trying to give your client information improperly
25 in order to influence her answer.

Page 58
1 MR. WOOD: That is just pure bunk,
2 Darnay.
3 MR. HOFFMAN: Sorry, but that is what
4 I see it to be. That is why we have Judge
5 Carnes waiting by the phone for us.
6 MR. WOOD: If you have an issue to
7 take up with Judge Carnes, you have a right to
8 do whatever you want to do. I don't have an
9 issue with Judge Carnes yet.
10 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, you may have it
11 if you don't get on the phone with us and talk
12 to her.
13 MR. WOOD: I am going to participate.
14 I am not going to allow you to ex parte a
15 conversation with Judge Carnes.
16 MR. HOFFMAN: No judge would allow an
17 ex parte communication. You know better than
18 that.
19 MR. WOOD: Why don't we define, so
20 we can read the record to her, exactly what the
21 controversy is at the moment because I still
22 don't understand it because I haven't been allowed
23 to state an objection. I might not even have an
24 objection.
25 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, in fact, I would

Page 59
1 like you to read back what you were about to
2 state as an objection, in fact.
3 MR. WOOD: Okay. I started off and
4 said -- you said, the question to Ms. Ramsey:
5 "I am going to ask you to comment on
6 whether you see any similarities in the
7 handwriting, and that is on this Exhibit 10,
8 without identifying it for her."
9 And I said: "Let me just ask you,
10 Darnay, Patsy Ramsey is not a questioned document
11 examiner.
12 "Mr. Hoffman: I just want her
13 personal observation.
14 "Mr. Wood: We don't know what
15 alterations have been done to these documents. I
16 know where these documents came from. They came
17 from one of your excerpts.
18 "Mr. Hoffman:" --
19 MR. HOFFMAN: That is the point at
20 which you are starting to give her information.
21 MR. WOOD: Excuse me.
22 "Mr. Hoffman: I would prefer you
23 don't identify the source.
24 "Mr. Wood: Why not? She is
25 entitled to," and then you interrupted, and I

Page 60
1 don't think we ever got any further.
2 MR. HOFFMAN: This is the area
3 that --
4 MR. WOOD: So the question is whether
5 or not, when you give her a document, is she
6 entitled to know the source of the document
7 before she answers questions about it --
8 MR. HOFFMAN: No.
9 MR. WOOD: -- let's put that issue
10 before Judge Carnes.
11 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. Yup.
12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the
13 video record.
14 MR. HOFFMAN: We are going to read
15 that statement. That is what I am objecting to,
16 what you are doing there. So we will read that
17 to Judge Carnes.
18 MR. WOOD: I think I understand what
19 we want to do with Judge Carnes, and that is to
20 ask her, when you question her about a document,
21 if she is entitled to know what the document is.
22 MR. HOFFMAN: No. A particular type
23 of document. Okay? Not all documents.
24 MR. WOOD: She is entitled to know
25 what the document is.

Page 61
1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the
2 video record at 10:24.
3 MR. HOFFMAN: And I would like to
4 have this colloquy with the judge so that we
5 don't, basically, just sort of undermine the whole
6 purpose of this, which is to keep you from giving
7 information to your client. If your client is
8 present during this colloquy, it defeats the whole
9 purpose. Okay.
10 MR. WOOD: Darnay, I don't know what
11 you are up to, and the game here --
12 MR. HOFFMAN: It is not a game, Mr.
13 Wood.
14 MR. WOOD: It is not a game. I
15 think if you put a document in front of my
16 client, she is entitled to know what --
17 MR. HOFFMAN: This is what the
18 document is. It is a series of letters. Any
19 person can see what this is.
20 MR. WOOD: It is a series of letters
21 that is --
22 MR. HOFFMAN: That is all. I asked
23 her to look at it, asked her if she recognized
24 any of it, and then I asked her if she could
25 make any comment on whether she recognizes any

Page 62
1 similarities in the lettering of it.
2 That is all. It is a very simple
3 thing. I don't have to identify the source or
4 anything else.
5 MR. WOOD: Let me address this issue
6 with Mr. Rawls off the record, and we will come
7 back and see if we can solve the problem in a
8 different fashion.
9 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay.
10 (A recess was taken.)
11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the
12 video record at 10:33.
13 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I am
14 going to show you a document that has been marked
15 Plaintiff's Exhibit 10 for identification. And I
16 would like you to look at the document. Please
17 look at it carefully.
18 What you -- this document, for the
19 record, contains eight letters that are side by
20 side vertically on the page. The letter D, what
21 looks like the letter S, what looks like letters
22 R and O, what looks like an N, what looks like
23 an O, what looks like an exclamation point, what
24 looks like a G, and what looks like a B.
25 I am going to ask you, Mrs. Ramsey,

Page 63
1 if you can identify any of these letters as being
2 your handwriting.
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. Now I am going to ask you to look at
5 these letters and tell me -- in fact, I withdraw
6 the question.
7 I would like you to look at the
8 lower letter B, what looks like could be a letter
9 B at the bottom.
10 MR. WOOD: Left or right? There is
11 a mark with some sort of funny mark over it.
12 MR. HOFFMAN: That looks like a
13 little hat.
14 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Those letters, for
15 the purposes of this discussion, look like they
16 might be the letter B. I am going to ask you
17 whether you see any similarity in the two
18 letters, any visual similarity, you as a lay
19 person, not as an expert, just looking at it
20 visually, do you see any similarities?
21 MR. WOOD: And if I might have my
22 objection for the record --
23 MR. HOFFMAN: Sure, at this point
24 please.
25 MR. WOOD: -- is simply that I

Page 64
1 object to the form of the question. I do not
2 believe it is appropriate to ask a lay person a
3 question that goes to what you might believe to
4 be a question document issue from an expert,
5 particularly when you have not identified the
6 source of the writings before the witness, you
7 have not identified in answer whether these
8 documents have been in any way altered, blown up,
9 enlarged, positioned differently. So I object to
10 the form of the question for those reasons.
11 You may answer the question.
12 MR. HOFFMAN: Also, for the purposes,
13 I would like to state that this answer would not
14 be used for any evidentiary purpose, realizing
15 that there is no proper foundation as to source,
16 as to how these letters came to be what they
17 are. But I will just say one thing for the
18 record, that lay people are, under Article 9 of
19 the Federal Rules of Evidence, are occasionally
20 allowed to identify handwriting as lay people.
21 Frequently, letters are shown to lay
22 people, and they are allowed to authenticate
23 handwriting to that degree, if they have
24 familiarity, which is one of the reasons why
25 I asked you if you were familiar with any of

Page 65
1 the letters.
2 MR. WOOD: And I did not object when
3 you asked her whether she believed that to be her
4 handwriting.
5 MR. HOFFMAN: That is all I am
6 asking.
7 MR. WOOD: But now you are asking
8 her whether there is similarity from a lay
9 perspective, and I will accept your stipulation
10 that you will not use that answer for any
11 evidentiary purpose.
12 And with that stipulation, you may
13 answer the question.
14 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I would like you
15 to look at the letter B and tell me if those Bs
16 look at all similar to you.
17 A. Well, they are both lower case Bs.
18 Q. Is there anything about the Bs that
19 to you looks similar beside the fact they are
20 lower case? The way they are drawn?
21 A. No, not particularly.
22 Q. I am going to ask you to look above
23 the letter that we identified as being B at what
24 looks like it could be a G. I am going to ask
25 you to look at the G. I am going to ask you

Page 66
1 whether you see any similarities between the Gs
2 and what those similarities are.
3 MR. WOOD: Same stipulation?
4 MR. HOFFMAN: Same stipulation.
5 THE WITNESS: Well, they are both
6 lower case G. They are both more of the same
7 size than the Bs are.
8 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Is there anything
9 -- what about the way in which what looks like
10 could be described as a tail with the G, is
11 there any similarity with respect to that?
12 A. It swings to the left.
13 Q. Do they look similar, the tails to
14 the G?
15 A. Somewhat. I mean, a G, you make a G
16 with the tail to the left. Is that what you
17 mean?
18 Q. Those look similar, like similar
19 tails?
20 MR. WOOD: You are talking about --
21 well, again, I think she answered your question.
22 THE WITNESS: One is squiggly, and
23 one is smoother. But, I mean, it depends on how
24 many things you want to --
25 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Just looking for

Page 67
1 whatever points of similarity that you, as a lay
2 person --
3 A. I would say they are both similar in
4 size.
5 MR. WOOD: Or dissimilar, in fairness.
6 MR. HOFFMAN: Or dissimilar.
7 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) You can make
8 whatever visual observations you want about it.
9 I simply want your reaction.
10 A. The one on the right is more shaky,
11 it looks like.
12 Q. What about the one on the left?
13 A. It is not as shaky. And the one on
14 the right has a little swoop up on the tail, and
15 the one on the left does not.
16 The one on the left has a thicker
17 circle for the part of the G than the one on
18 the right.
19 Q. Now I am going to ask you to --
20 before I -- withdraw that question.
21 Do you have any other observations,
22 similarities or dissimilarities, that you would
23 like to express?
24 A. No.
25 Q. I am going to ask you to look to

Page 68
1 what looks like exclamation points, and I am
2 going to ask you if you see any points of
3 similarity or dissimilarity.
4 MR. WOOD: Same stipulation?
5 MR. HOFFMAN: Same stipulation.
6 MR. WOOD: Thank you.
7 THE WITNESS: One is thick. One is
8 thin. One has a bigger dot than the other.
9 That is fat. That is little.
10 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Anything about the
11 slope or angle or anything else that is similar
12 or dissimilar?
13 A. I don't know what "slope or angle"
14 means.
15 Q. The way in which it is going up and
16 down.
17 A. Well, that is how you make an
18 exclamation point is straight down with a dot
19 under it.
20 Q. Do they look similar or dissimilar
21 with respect to how vertical they are?
22 A. Well, the one on the left is
23 squigglier and leans at the top a little bit.
24 Q. Any other similarities or
25 dissimilarities, before I move to the next one?

Page 69
1 A. I don't think they look alike.
2 Q. The next object or letters look like
3 they might be Os, the letter O. Or they could
4 be a zero from a number. But in any case, a
5 zero or an O.
6 MR. WOOD: Or it could be even an
7 attempt to make a Q.
8 MR. HOFFMAN: Could be.
9 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) But you can
10 identify it any way you would like, Mrs. Ramsey.
11 And please point out any similarities or
12 dissimilarities that you see.
13 MR. HOFFMAN: And, Mr. Wood, the same
14 stipulation.
15 MR. WOOD: Same stipulation. Thank
16 you.
17 THE WITNESS: I don't think they look
18 a thing alike.
19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) So you would say
20 they are just dissimilar. Would you point out
21 their dissimilarities?
22 A. The dissimilarities?
23 Q. Yes. The dissimilarities.
24 A. One is large. One is small. One is
25 really heavy and feathered, kind of, and one is

Page 70
1 smoother.
2 Q. Any other similarities or
3 dissimilarities before I move on that you would
4 like to make?
5 A. They both have an opening in the
6 middle.
7 Q. All right. The hole in the doughnut?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I would like you to look up to the
10 next letter. Now, that can be an N. That
11 could be a truncated R. It is hard to say. I
12 would like you to look at that and just tell me
13 what similarities or dissimilarities you see
14 between the two.
15 MR. WOOD: It could be an N, too.
16 THE WITNESS: It could be a pi.
17 MR. HOFFMAN: Could be. For all we
18 know, it is a little horse or something that is
19 truncated, or poodle, actually.
20 THE WITNESS: A poodle?
21 MR. HOFFMAN: One of those show
22 poodles.
23 MR. WOOD: I am not seeing the
24 poodle here, Darnay.
25 THE WITNESS: This is a psych test.

Page 71
1 MR. HOFFMAN: Rorschach for attorneys.
2 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) If you could, look
3 at that, those two letters.
4 MR. HOFFMAN: With the same -- Lin,
5 what is it, the same stip?
6 MR. WOOD: Same stipulation.
7 THE WITNESS: One is shorter than the
8 other one. The one on the right is shorter than
9 the one on the left. The one on the left has
10 like a little triangle thing over the top of it.
11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I want to draw
12 your attention to the fact that they seem to
13 merge. There seems to be -- whatever it is, it
14 seems like one thing is running into another, or
15 there is something hanging off of it. It is an
16 awkward looking letter. It could be an R and an
17 O. It could be any other number of
18 configurations.
19 A. Which one are we looking at? Are
20 you looking at this one?
21 Q. Oh, no. I am sorry. Are we still
22 at the poodle? I thought we were going to
23 move on after the poodle.
24 MR. WOOD: I thought we were still
25 at the poodle.

Page 72
1 THE WITNESS: I never saw a poodle,
2 for the record.
3 MR. WOOD: Neither did I. That is
4 why I am staying there.
5 MR. HOFFMAN: Not going to go there;
6 right?
7 THE WITNESS: So you are at the
8 third one down now?
9 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Before I finish
10 that, I want to give you the opportunity, do you
11 have any other observation between similarity or
12 dissimilarity between the --
13 A. The little pi one?
14 Q. Yeah, the little pi.
15 A. I mean pi, like a Greek letter pi,
16 pi R squared.
17 Q. Now we will move to the next
18 configuration, whatever that is. I see it as an
19 R and an O, but that is just the way I look at
20 it. I would like you to tell me what you see
21 and similarities and dissimilarities between the
22 letter.
23 MR. WOOD: Same stip?
24 MR. HOFFMAN: Same stip.
25 THE WITNESS: I just -- that doesn't

Page 73
1 look like anything in the alphabet that I have
2 ever seen. I mean, it doesn't look like a
3 letter to me.
4 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Okay. Fair enough.
5 Any specific dissimilarities besides it
6 just doesn't look like a letter between the two
7 non --
8 A. Well, the one on the right seems to
9 be heavier and has a little piece sticking out
10 the left side. And the one on the left has a
11 little bird over the top of it or something mark.
12 Q. All right.
13 A. It looks like they were made with
14 different weights of pencil or something.
15 Q. If you have no further observations,
16 we will move to the next letter, what looks like
17 it could be an S.
18 A. Or it looks like it could be a 5.
19 Q. It could be a 5, too. Any
20 similarities or dissimilarities between the two?
21 A. The one on the left is larger than
22 the one on the right. The one on the right
23 looks more like an S than the one on the left.
24 The one on the left is more circular, kind of,
25 on the bottom. The one on the right is -- the

Page 74
1 bottom portion looks more angular.
2 MR. WOOD: We have the same stip on
3 this?
4 MR. HOFFMAN: Same stipulations.
5 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Any other
6 observations of either similarities or
7 dissimilarities before I move on, Mrs. Ramsey?
8 A. No.
9 Q. I will ask you to look at the top
10 and final one, what I would identify as a D, but
11 that doesn't mean it is a D. I would like you
12 to look at that and tell me what similarities or
13 dissimilarities that you see there.
14 MR. HOFFMAN: And, Lin, of course, we
15 have the same stip.
16 MR. WOOD: Thank you.
17 THE WITNESS: The left one looks like
18 an A to me, and the right one looks like a D.
19 It looks like maybe a shaky or older person might
20 have written it. Kind of squiggly.
21 This one has a higher -- the one on
22 the right has a higher stick on the side than
23 the one on the left.
24 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Right.
25 A. And the open space, the doughnut hole

Page 75
1 is bigger on the one on the right than the left.
2 I don't think they look alike.
3 Q. Okay. Fair enough.
4 A. They look like two different letters
5 to me.
6 Q. Thank you for putting up with that
7 exercise.
8 MR. HOFFMAN: And, Mr. Wood, thank
9 you also.
10 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) You remember earlier
11 I had you read about the handwriting from your
12 book. And I would say that maybe we both concede
13 that the handwriting is an important part of the
14 evidence in this crime.
15 MR. WOOD: She can speak for herself,
16 but we are not going to have her speaking for
17 you. Concessions are one thing. She has answered
18 your questions about that with respect to her
19 belief.
20 MR. HOFFMAN: I am just using that
21 foundationally to move on --
22 MR. LIN: That's okay. I wanted to
23 make sure.
24 MR. HOFFMAN: -- to move on so that
25 there is no question why I am moving into a

Page 76
1 particular area.
2 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) It goes to the
3 issue of why Mr. Wolf is here in this lawsuit
4 with respect to some elements of it, why in the
5 complaint there is what may appear to you to be
6 an extremely unfair accusation or representation
7 of you as author of the ransom note, as the
8 person who killed her daughter, or whatever.
9 And a lot of this is to try and
10 determine the degree to which the handwriting
11 experts that Mr. Wolf is using in this case can
12 accurately determine whether you are, in fact, the
13 author of the ransom note or not, which is part
14 of why we have been doing this.
15 I just want to show you something
16 that is -- I just want you to look at it. It,
17 again, is why, so to speak, why --
18 I would like you to mark this as
19 Plaintiff's Exhibit 11. I am going to show this.
20 Now, I am not making any
21 representations in this document as to whether, in
22 fact, its submission means anything other than
23 this was prepared by two handwriting experts.
24 This document is not being submitted to prove the
25 truth of anything in the document.

Page 77
1 So if you could, mark that.
2 Lin, we will stipulate to that effect.
3 Would you mark this document, please,
4 as Plaintiff's Exhibit 11.
5 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-11 was marked for
6 identification.)
7 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Now, Mrs. Ramsey, I
8 am going to tell you that that document, along
9 with reports, handwriting reports, were prepared
10 by document examiners Cina Wong and David Leadman.
11 And other handwriting was prepared -- other
12 handwriting was used in the form of the police
13 exemplars that were given to my office by Mr.
14 Wood pursuant to discovery requests.
15 And those documents are, without a
16 doubt, your handwriting because they were
17 identified by Mr. Wood as being the handwriting
18 exemplars that you personally gave to law
19 enforcement in Colorado at their request during
20 that five-day period.
21 Now, the problem for Mr. Wolf in this
22 case is the fact that not one of the experts --
23 Cina Wong, David Leadman, an expert known as
24 Gideon Epstein, Larry F. Siegler, and an expert
25 known as Don Lacey have all identified you as the

Page 78
1 ransom note writer. It is not a close call, as
2 far as they are concerned. They have identified
3 you. One of them, in fact, said, without doubt
4 you are the author of the ransom note.
5 So in order to be certain that they
6 are, in fact, correct in what they are looking at
7 as examples of your handwriting, I wanted you to
8 look at some of the documents that I gave you.
9 Now I want you to look at the document there and
10 see why, in fact, this, the issue of your
11 authorship, is such a problem.
12 MR. WOOD: Do you have a question?
13 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes.
14 MR. WOOD: Let's ask the question.
15 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Okay. Mrs. Ramsey,
16 did you write the ransom note?
17 MR. WOOD: Before you answer that, I
18 want to object to the form of the question. And
19 I want to specifically object to each and every
20 one of the prefatory comments with respect to
21 that question which started off a long time ago,
22 where you said: "-- to move on, so there was no
23 question why I am moving into a particular area."
24 "By Mr. Hoffman: It goes to the
25 issue of why Mr. Wolf is here in this lawsuit"

Page 79
1 -- beginning at that point down through and
2 including everything except for your stipulation,
3 which we will accept.
4 I want to move to strike all of the
5 prefatory comments from that beginning down
6 through where you said and ended, "Now I want you
7 to look at the document there and see why, in
8 fact, this, the question of your authorship, I
9 believe, is a problem."
10 All of those are improper as to form.
11 I move to strike each and every one of them with
12 the exception of your stipulation. I also want
13 to tell you that I was very courteous in letting
14 you sit here and, in effect, lecture my client.
15 That is your one and only lecture, Mr. Hoffman.
16 You are here to ask questions.
17 Now, your question, as I understand
18 it, if you would like to restate it, is, Did
19 Patsy Ramsey write the ransom note. Is that the
20 question?
21 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes, it is.
22 MR. WOOD: Why don't you restate that
23 because I don't think the other question isn't
24 worth the paper it is written on or the time you
25 have taken up to ask it because it is totally

Page 80
1 improper as to its form.
2 Now, ask her a question.
3 MR. HOFFMAN: First of all, I am
4 going to respond to your ad hominem attack.
5 MR. WOOD: It is not an ad hominem
6 attack.
7 MR. HOFFMAN: It is an ad hominem
8 attack, and it is done for the purposes
9 grandstanding, which, you know, seems to be the
10 way you are operating, sir.
11 MR. LIN: Take that up with Judge
12 Carnes. Why don't you just ask your question.
13 MR. HOFFMAN: No. I am going to
14 respond to your ad hominem colloquy, which was,
15 in effect, an attack on me.
16 I was not lecturing Mrs. Ramsey.
17 And, Mrs. Ramsey, I apologize if I --
18 MR. WOOD: You don't have to respond
19 to that.
20 Do you have a question?
21 MR. HOFFMAN: No, Mr. Wood. I am
22 going to respond to your ad hominem attack, which
23 is what I consider it to be.
24 The fact is, I was not lecturing Mrs.
25 Ramsey. I was explaining to Mrs. Ramsey,

Page 81
1 prefatory to asking her a question which could be
2 regarded as very insensitive, which is simply, Did
3 you write the ransom note?, as to why I was
4 asking that question.
5 And, quite frankly, I don't think it
6 was improper of me to show a certain sensitivity
7 to a mother whose daughter has died rather
8 brutally.
9 MR. WOOD: Darnay, Darnay, you have
10 not shown this family any sensitivity since March
11 of 1997.
12 MR. HOFFMAN: That's not --
13 MR. WOOD: Let me stop you here.
14 MR. HOFFMAN: That's not before --
15 MR. WOOD: Let me stop you here.
16 No, sir. Let me stop you here.
17 I am not going to sit here and have
18 you go back and forth and talk with my client or
19 lecture my client. You are here under the
20 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure to ask questions.
21 I have the right to make an objection. If you
22 deem my objection to be an ad hominem attack,
23 take it up with Judge Carnes.
24 MR. HOFFMAN: Same here.
25 MR. WOOD: I believe my objection is

Page 82
1 100 percent good.
2 Now, ask your question, let's get
3 answers, and let's move on. We don't need the
4 back-and-forth every time I make an objection.
5 Okay. Please, let's get going.
6 MR. HOFFMAN: You are responsible, to
7 some degree, for the back-and-forth.
8 Quite frankly, under the Federal
9 Rules, I don't think you have the right to
10 interfere and try to control my deposition.
11 MR. WOOD: I have the right to make
12 an objection, I did make an objection, and I
13 asked you to state your question.
14 MR. HOFFMAN: But not an attack on
15 counsel, which is, in fact, what this was. This
16 was an ad hominem attack. You characterized what
17 I was doing with your client as lecturing her.
18 MR. WOOD: I think the record will
19 speak for itself.
20 MR. HOFFMAN: And also, I think you
21 spoke outside of anything that was going on here,
22 which was to conduct that you considered to be
23 improper on my part outside of this deposition.
24 MR. WOOD: I don't know what you are
25 talking about now.

Page 83
1 MR. HOFFMAN: You just made a
2 reference -- you can read it back -- to my lack
3 of sensitivity to the Ramsey family in general.
4 MR. WOOD: You are the one making
5 representations on the record about being
6 concerned.
7 MR. HOFFMAN: No. I am not making
8 representations. I am explaining.
9 MR. WOOD: You are wasting all of
10 our time now.
11 MR. HOFFMAN: No. This is my time.
12 MR. WOOD: Okay. If you want to
13 waste it.
14 MR. HOFFMAN: This is my deposition
15 time, and I am going to make a record responding
16 to your ad hominem attack on counsel.
17 MR. WOOD: Why don't you go ahead
18 and make that record.
19 MR. HOFFMAN: I just have been making
20 it. I have been making it.
21 MR. WOOD: When you are through, she
22 will come back and she will answer questions.
23 You don't have to sit here and listen
24 to this, Mrs. Ramsey.
25 MR. HOFFMAN: If she doesn't want to,

Page 84
1 that is fine.
2 MR. WOOD: You don't have to. You
3 can take a break, and you can go ahead and make
4 your response. And when you have a question, we
5 will bring her back in here, and we will answer
6 all your questions that are properly formed.
7 MR. HOFFMAN: All right. What we
8 will do is this, I am going to ask Mrs. Ramsey
9 a very simple question.
10 MR. WOOD: Thank you.
11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, did
12 you write the ransom note that was discovered by
13 yourself on December 26, 1996, at your home?
14 A. No, sir, I did not.
15 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. Thank you.
16 Now, at this point, I think we will
17 take a break. I think this would be an
18 appropriate time to take a break. Thank you.
19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the
20 video record at 10:55.
21 (A recess was taken.)
22 MR. HOFFMAN: Just for the purposes
23 of taking up briefly before we left off, I
24 believe Mr. Wood made a motion to strike or will
25 do so with respect to that, and I just want to

Page 85
1 formally say that I would object and I do object
2 to any motion to strike any of the material he
3 referred to earlier. That is all. I simply want
4 to be on record as objecting to that. And that
5 is all.
6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Ready to go on the
7 video record?
8 MR. HOFFMAN: Oh, I want to put that
9 on the video record. Sorry.
10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the
11 video record at 11:07.
12 MR. HOFFMAN: At this point, I would
13 like to move on to another topic area, but just
14 for the purposes of making a record, Mr. Wood
15 earlier in the deposition said that he was going
16 to object to or asked to strike statements that I
17 had made prefatory to a question that I asked
18 Mrs. Ramsey concerning the authorship of the
19 ransom note. And just for the record, I object
20 to any attempt to have that stricken from the
21 record. That is all I want to say with respect
22 to that.
23 Mr. Wood, if you want to add anything
24 to that.
25 MR. WOOD: Next question.

Page 86
1 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Now I am just
2 going to go into -- I am going to ask for some
3 clarification of things that are in the book,
4 things that I didn't understand.
5 I am going to turn your attention to
6 page 378. It is chapter -- in fact, I can let
7 you look at that. There are two statements
8 there. In fact, Mrs. Ramsey, if you will just
9 give me your book, I will just quickly highlight
10 it. I am sorry about not having done this
11 beforehand.
12 All right. I would like you to read
13 the highlighted portions on page 378 in your book
14 "the Death of Innocence." That is the paperback
15 edition.
16 A. "The Boulder grand jury said no to an
17 indictment."
18 Q. And then the next statement that I
19 highlighted.
20 A. "The grand jury's secret decision."
21 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge as
22 to whether or not the grand jury did, in fact,
23 make a decision based on that statement?
24 A. Well, the district attorney, I
25 believe, made a public statement that said there

Page 87
1 would not be an indictment.
2 Q. There is a reference here to the
3 grand jury's secret decision. Do you have any
4 knowledge of a secret decision by the grand jury,
5 any personal knowledge? Are you referring to
6 that?
7 A. Well, I think all of the grand jury
8 information is under wraps or under seal or
9 something.
10 Q. But do you know whether or not the
11 grand jury, in fact, made a decision in your
12 case?
13 A. Just going from what the district
14 attorney said, that there was no indictment.
15 Q. Okay. But this doesn't indicate --
16 the reason I am asking you this question is --
17 withdraw.
18 Is Patrick -- is it Patrick Furman,
19 was he an attorney of yours at one point?
20 A. Yes, he was.
21 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Furman made a
22 statement that was published in the Boulder papers
23 to the effect that there was a rumor that the
24 grand jury had taken a straw poll and had decided
25 not to indict?

Page 88
1 MR. WOOD: Object to the form of the
2 question in that I think you have inadvertently,
3 perhaps, made reference to the wrong lawyer; but
4 if you have a statement to show her, that might
5 be helpful.
6 MR. HOFFMAN: I don't have that
7 statement. I am just asking her if she has
8 heard that.
9 THE WITNESS: I am not aware of a
10 statement by Mr. Furman in the paper.
11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Then I will ask
12 you, by any of your attorneys --
13 A. No, I am not.
14 Q. -- to the effect that the grand jury
15 -- that there was a rumor that the grand jury
16 had taken a secret straw poll and had decided or
17 voted not to indict?
18 MR. WOOD: You are talking about
19 public statements, not anything attorneys may have
20 said to her?
21 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) No. No attorney.
22 I don't want you to reveal anything that is an
23 attorney/client.
24 A. No, I am not aware of any such
25 statement.

Page 89
1 Q. So the statement "The grand jury's
2 secret decision" is not referring to any personal
3 knowledge that you have about what went on in the
4 grand jury room with respect to any decision to
5 indict or not indict; is that correct?
6 A. I think that adjective was used just
7 referring to grand jury as a whole does
8 everything behind closed doors.
9 Q. So it is just a figure of speech; is
10 that correct?
11 A. Actually, I did not write this
12 section. John wrote this. So you might want to
13 ask him that question.
14 Q. Okay. Thank you.
15 Now, there is an incident in the book
16 on page 191 which you might remember. It is
17 fairly lengthy. I just want you to review it.
18 I am not asking you to read it. It involves
19 the alarm system that apparently failed when you
20 came home. I think you were in your home in
21 Charlevoix. Is that it?
22 It is the next-to-last paragraph on
23 191. If you could, just look at that to refresh
24 your memory generally.
25 A. Where it says, "John put in an alarm

Page 90
1 system"?
2 Q. System, yes.
3 MR. WOOD: And you can read anything
4 you need to to put that into context.
5 MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah.
6 THE WITNESS: Okay.
7 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Do you remember
8 that incident?
9 A. About putting the alarm system in?
10 Q. No. That incident where -- no.
11 Your feelings with respect to security and
12 whatever. It is not an incident.
13 I am going to refer to another part
14 of the book in a minute. Just simply your state
15 of mind in security systems.
16 A. I guess I am unclear about what you
17 are asking me.
18 Q. What I am going to ask you is this:
19 Do you know whether or not -- first of all, when
20 you were living in Boulder at the time of the
21 death of your daughter, did you have a security
22 system in your home?
23 A. Yes, we did.
24 Q. Was that a security system that you
25 used at the time you went out that night,

Page 91
1 December 25th, as you would explain it in your
2 book? When you went out visiting people, did you
3 have the security alarm on that night?
4 A. No, we did not.
5 Q. When you moved to Atlanta, did you
6 install a security system in your homes, any of
7 them?
8 A. Yes, we did.
9 Q. Did you have a security system in the
10 home that has been identified as the Atlanta --
11 not mansion, but that -- I don't have the
12 address. The house where John was assaulted in
13 May of, I think it was, 2001. Do you know if
14 there was a security alarm in that facility, that
15 home, in Atlanta?
16 A. There was. When we moved in, we
17 installed a very elaborate security system. And
18 subsequent to that, we had some extensive
19 remodeling done, and the security system was
20 dismantled and was subsequently reinstalled.
21 Q. Who was in charge of, in Boulder,
22 with turning the security system on or off? Was
23 that you or was that John, normally?
24 A. We normally did not use the security
25 system in Boulder.

Page 92
1 Q. Why was that?
2 A. Because we felt safe in Boulder.