Interviewer:         Boulder Police

Interviewee:         John Ramsey

Date of Interview:   April 30, 1997

Interviewed At:      Boulder District Attorney’s Office

Case:                Hasson/Ramsey

                     Case No: 96-423






ST:  Detective Steve Thomas

TT:  Detective Tom Trujillo

PR:  Patsy Ramsey

PB:  Pat Burke

BM:  Bryan Morgan

PH:  Peter Hoffstrom

JF:  Jon Foster




NOTE: This version has been prepared from a transcript provided to Global Reporting & Video, Inc. on October 10, 2002. Numerous inaccuracies in spelling, punctuation and other textual errors have not been corrected.




ST:  We are going to get going here shortly, so just hit the play button and knock it out.

BM:  See what you need to do.

ST:  Did you have anything before we start Bryan?

BM:  I did not.

ST:  Okay.




ST: Our further purpose for the tape today is Wednesday, April 30, 2997, at the Boulder District Attorneys Office; present are myself, Steve Thomas, Detective Thomas Trujillo, Chief Koby, Deputy P. Hoffstrom, Mr. John Ramsey, Mr. Bryan Morgan, and Jon Foster.


    John, just some real quick preface remarks, and although this isn’t how we usually conduct business in a hurried way, there is a lot we want to get through today and we know that our time is short. As we told Patsy, we appreciate this “leap of faith,” maybe on both our parts, finally came to the table, and uh with the help of Pete, establishing what we hope can be some on-going and continuing dialogue; let me simply speak for Tom and myself, that our commitment to this case, despite what you may read and hear and incenuate, or reported from third parties, we will find the truth in this case and that is solely what we are seeking from detectives bluecollar guys at our level, and we will work that to the ends of the earth. And John, I’ll tell you, we have gone to bat for John Andrew and Melinda to get them cleared. I have chased stuff all over this country unrelated to John Ramsey, and I’ll continue to do that as it has merit. So, with that said I think Tom is going to jump in with some questions, and I’ll probably close it with some. Okay.

TT: Thank you, John (inaudible). Our time is limited here, so I’m going to go right to December 25th; next kind of walk with you in chronological order, uh and kind give you the as far as it’s worth, for a minute there. Let’s kind of start, Patsy covered most of this, let’s cover from when you guys came home from the White’s house, actually when you guys left the White’s house that night. About what time, that kind of thing, just give me brief (inaudible) of what happen.

JR:  Uh, it was probably 8:30 p.m., quarter to nine when we left as I recall. And uh, we had gift baskets for the Walkers, for the Stines, for the Franks, and we left the White’s and we took a basket to the Walkers; as I recall Patsy went in and I stayed in the car; we drove to the Stines and did the same thing, uh, and debated on whether to go to the Franks or not, but it was getting late and that was a ways away, so we decided to go home. So we probably got home about nineish, nine-fifteen I think, drove in the back through the alley into the garage. Uh JonBenet had fallen fast to sleep. Uh, I carried her inside and took her upstairs and put her in bed, put her on her bed. Uh Patsy came up behind me, and then I went down to get Burke ready for bed, he was down in the living room, working on a toy he got putting it together, and tried to get him to go to bed because we had to get up early the next morning, but he wanted to get this toy put together, so I worked with him on that for 10 15 minutes probably; and then I took him up to bed and got his pajamas on, probably brushed his teeth, and then I went up stairs from there and got ready for bed. I read her a little bit. The lights went out around ten-thirtyish or ten-forty.

TT:  How did you sleep Christmas night?

JR:  I took a Melatonin tablet because I wanted to get to sleep fast because we had to get up early, and I slept through the night.

TT:  Now is that Melatonin an over the counter or prescription drug?

JR:  Over the counter.

TT:  That you are (inaudible). . . are you taking any other medications right now?

JR:  I have been on Paxel, and Quanopin, which are both prescription anti-depressants.

TT:  Okay, and the second one is?

JR:  Quanopin.

TT:  OK. I’m not familiar with that one.

JR:  It like, kind of like Adavan, I’m not an expert but . . .

TT:  . . . Okay. How much Paxel where you taking?

JR:  Uh, well one tablet a night, I don’t know how, but I can get the prescription from (inaudible) the size of it, whatever it is.

TT:  Is it the same prescription that Patsy is on or. . .

JR:  Basically, yeah, probably exactly the same thing.

TT:  And the second medication, you take that once a night?

JR:  Right.

TT:  Right before bedtime?

JR:  Yep.

TT:  And second medication, how often to you take it?

JR:  Uh, recommended is two to three tablets a day, and I tend to go from zero to just three. It’s uh, kind of depends on how you feel, it’s kind of a quick reacting.

TT:  Okay. (inaudible) Let’s go back to the 25th, sorry about that. Get home about nine, nine-fifteenish, Burke’s downstairs playing; do you remember what kind of toy that was?

JR:  Oh, it was a little thing that kind of unfolded, and it was like car ramp or something and then it folded all back together and it made something else.

TT:  Was it like (inaudible) . . .Was it like putting stickers on it?

JR:  Well, it was a plastic thing he had to assemble and he had some stickers too, and uh, he was intent on getting it done before he went to bed, so . . .

TT:  Did you help Burke get into his pajamas that night?

JR:  Yeah, like I do every night.

TT:  Once he gets into his pajamas, he brushes his teeth, and climbs into bed. Which bed did Burke sleep in that night?

JR:  He slept in the one he normally does, which is the one closest to the door.

TT:  Okay. That where he, that’s like his bed and (inaudible) the room.

JR:  Yeah. That’s like his bed were you’ll, that’s like his bed in the TV room.

TT:  All right. Did Burke go right to bed, or did he watch, I know he. . .

JR:  No he went right to bed . . .

TT:  Does he have the habit of watching TV sometimes?

JR:  Uh, Yeah he always like to put a pitch in for a movie or something, but I’m almost certain he went right to bed because it was by then, it was beyond when he went to bed anyway because he knew we had to get up at 5:30 a.m., so he went right to bed.

TT:  Okay. You went upstairs and got ready for bed; was Patsy already in bed by the time you went upstairs?

JR:  She was in bed when I went to go to bed, I remember that. Uh, . . .

TT:  And you guys have kind of separate bathrooms there, you guys are getting ready about the same time then?

JR:  Uh, I don’t really remember Patsy getting ready at the same time, but I can remember she was in bed when I went to go to bed.

TT:  Okay. But about, actually which staircase did you use to get upstairs?

JR:  The ah. . .

TT:  The front or the back?

JR:  The front.

TT:  Okay. You came to the top of the stairs after helping Burke get ready for bed, do you recall whether Patsy was in bed at that time?

JR:  I don’t remember, one way or the other.

TT:  Okay. You brushed you teeth and you go get in bed, what book were you reading that night?

JR:  I don’t remember. Uh, I had been reading Shadow of the Mood, I don’t know if I picked that one up or not, but I don’t remember which one it was, I don’t read them for very long.

TT:  Okay. When you guys first got home that night, were there any lights on in the house that you can remember?

JR:  Uh, not that I can remember, except it should have been, there would have remember specifically (inaudible), we normally would have left lights on.

TT:  When you normally go out and leave lights on, which lights might you leave on?

JR:  Well I usually leave lights in the living room on and the sunroom, if we think about it, we leave a hall light on, and the garage.

TT:  In fact one on the spiral staircase, or in the coatroom?

JR:  In the coatroom, usually. But I don’t remember specifically if it was on.

TT:  Did JonBenet ever wake up when you carried her upstairs?

JR:  No, she was sound asleep.

TT:  Okay. Is she had to wake up when she is sound asleep like that?

JR:  No, not usually. She was very sound asleep, and did notice (inaudible).

TT:  Did Burke follow you guys in, or did you have to go back down to the car to get him out of the car?

JR:  No I think he came in, I don’t think he was asleep.

TT:  Okay. Were you in JonBenet’s room when Patsy got her bedclothes on?

JR:  No, I don’t think so, not that I can remember.

TT:  What was JonBenet wearing when you carried her upstairs?

JR:  She had on a white sweater with a silver star and black pants and black vest, and that what’s she had on that night.

TT:  Okay. Did Patsy put her in her bedclothes then?

JR:  Uh huh.

TT:  John, do you remember what Burke wore to bed that night?

JR:  Oh, not specifically. He would have worn pajamas, but I don’t remember which ones because he usually mis-matches.

TT:  I know we talked earlier about Burke liking watching TV movies. Does his TV come in real clearly as far as regular TV stations go, or is it just more for movie?

JR:  It’s more for movies. In fact, I’m not even sure the TV was in his room that night, I don’t know, I don’t recall. But it’s not hooked up to cable or anything.

TT:  Okay. Before you fell asleep that night, did you hear Burke making any sounds, noises, or anything like that? Any odd noises or sounds coming from the house at all?

JR:  No.

TT:  Okay. And Burke went to bed in the bed he normally sleeps in?

JR:  Yeah.

TT:  Does Burke usually sleep with his door open or closed?

JR:  We usually close it partway. It’s usually (inaudible) for sound or light.

TT:  Does he usually sleep with a night-light on or anything like that?

JR:  Uh, not normally.

TT:  Okay. What about JonBenet’s door, is it normally open or closed at night?

JR:  It’s usually partly open.

TT:  OK, and again, about how far is partially opened?

JR:  Just enough to let some light in.

TT:  Okay. (inaudible) about the same as Burkes?

JR:  Uh huh.

TT:  OK. Does JonBenet normally sleep with a night-light or any type of lighting in her room?

JR:  Well sometimes we’ll leave the night light on, the bathroom there’s a little night light.

TT:  Okay, is this like a plug into the wall type night-light?

JR:  Uh huh.

TT:  Okay. Does she have one of those plug into the wall type night-lights in her bedroom any way (inaudible). . .

JR:  Uh not that I recall . . .

TT:  Okay, she normally has the bathroom night light on. Before Burke went to bed that night, after he got his little toy together, did Burke have anything to eat at all?

JR:  No, I don’t think so.

TT:  Okay. Did you guys get out anything to eat that night?

JR:  No, I didn’t, and I don’t think Patsy did.

TT:  You don’t think Patsy did?

JR:  My wife I don’t think she did, no. I didn’t.

TT:  Okay. Do you know if JonBenet Normally sleeps with the jewelry on, that she has on?

JR:  She (pause), she had a little ring that she usually wore. If I would put her to bed, I would normally take off her necklace. Uh, that ring was fairly permanent, she wore it at all times.

TT:  When did you get that ring?

JR:  Uh, gosh I don’t know, I’m not sure.

TT:  Okay. Have any idea of who she got her jewelry from?

JR:  Uh, (pause) . . . No, not specifically, I mean it did come from Patsy or Patsy’s sisters (inaudible)

TT:  Does JonBenet normally sleep with her TV on, does she normally go to bed with the TV on?

JR:  It’s, it was always kind of a negotiating point. Uh, she liked to watch movies, and it would put her to sleep; so sometimes she would do that, but I don’t think that was the case that night because usually we’d have to go down and turn it off before she went to sleep; far as I know she stayed asleep, because she was asleep (inaudible) . . .

TT:  Never woke up as far as you know?

JR:  Not that I know of.

TT:  Okay. Did Patsy pull back the bed covers or anything, or just lay her right on top of the bedspread of hers?

JR:  Uh, I don’t remember exactly, but I would suspect the bed was not made Christmas morning, I don’t remember exactly.

TT:  Okay. Is that, that part of the house is fairly warm, is that right?

JR:  It can be.

TT:  OK. Is that kind of since it’s remodeled (inaudible) problem or not, but it’s warmer than the old part of the house?

JR:  Well, it’s hot water heat, it seems like just hot water pipes tend to heat that part of the room without having to have the thermostats turned up.

TT:  Okay. Is that a problem with having to sleep in that part of the house at all?

JR:  In terms of heat?

TT:  Yeah. Too hot to sleep there?

JR:  No, it was comfortably warm, it wasn’t too hot. It can get warm when you actually turn the thermostat up.

TT:  Okay. Do you know about JonBenet’s normal bedtime routines, say other than the 25th when she’s sound asleep and you had to carry her up; what’s the normal routines for JonBenet to go to sleep?

JR:  Uh, well we’d usually try to get the kids in the bed by 8:30 p.m. or 9:00 p.m., and uh, sometimes we’d read to them, and sometimes they’d want to watch a movie and fall asleep then; they usually go up, get their pajamas on, brush their teeth, then get in bed.

TT:  And you guys were heading out pretty early the next morning?

JR:  Uh huh.

TT:  About what time did you guys plan on leaving the house?

JR:  We needed to leave by 6:30 a.m., because we were going to take off about 7:00 a.m., because we were meeting John and Melinda in Minneapolis.

TT:  You guys were going to taxi to fly out by 7:00 a.m.

JR:  Uh-huh.

TT:  What time were you planning on getting up; what time did guys get up?

JR:  Well the alarm was set for 5:30 a.m., I woke up a little before that, before the alarm went off.

TT:  Do you have an alarm? Does Patsy have an alarm? Do you guys both have alarms?

JR:  The alarm is a clock radio which is on my side of the bed, which is the north side, left as you face the bed.

TT:  Does Patsy use an alarm clock to wake-up at all?

JR:  Well, she’ll use that one if I wasn’t there.

TT:  Okay.

JR:  That’s the only one we’ve got I think.

TT:  So you woke up a little bit before 5:30 a.m. in the morning?

JR:  Uh huh.

TT:  John, about what time do you think you fell asleep on Christmas night?

JR:  Well I think it was 10:30 p.m. or 10:40 p.m. probably somewhere in that range.

TT:  Okay. Again before you fell asleep, do you recall hearing any noises or sounds in the house?

JR:  No.

TT:  Normally, do you do a walk through to kind of make sure the doors are locked?

JR:  No, I don’t normally. The normal doors that we used to go in and out of the house were the garage door, the door to the garage and the door out in the hallway, the back hallway, and I would usually look to see if that door is locked, because that was the typical one the kids went in and out of.

TT:  The back one out by the study area?

JR:  Right, TV room.

TT:  (Inaudible)

JR:  The TV room, out by the study area . . .

TT:  Okay.

JR:  . . .the back hallway. But uh, I might have looked at the door that night, checked it normally I don’t specifically recall it . . .

TT:  You don’t recall whether it was open or closed or anything?

JR:  No, not specifically.

TT:  Normally, any other doors left unlocked?

JR:  Uh, the only door that is normally left unlocked intentionally is the door in the garage.

TT:  Okay, between the house and the garage, the (inaudible) and the garage.

JR:  Right.

TT:  OK. John I want to back-up; who fell asleep first do you think, you or Patsy?

JR:  Uh, I don’t know for sure, I suspect Patsy did because she usually does, but I don’t now. I didn’t notice.

TT:  Did she stay up reading that night at all?

JR:  No, not that I recall.

TT:  Okay. Do you know if you had any problems, you talked about having, you wanted to get right to sleep because of the trip in the morning, did Patsy talk about having any problems falling asleep, or taking anything to fall asleep, anything like that?

JR:  No.

TT:  Okay. Is that something that, how often would you take this . . .

JR:  Oh, (pause) I don’t know, it’s sporadically, it is suppose to also make you live longer and stay younger longer and all that stuff, so depending on how disciplined I was, but uh, it does help you sleep, but it wasn’t a regular thing at will.

TT:  Normally, without taking that Melatonin, are you normally a pretty sound sleeper?

JR:  Yeah usually (pause)

TT:  I want to understand from Patsy, you guys didn’t have the alarm system on at all that day. Is that something, again, she talked about you guys having used the alarm for . . .

JR:  No, we didn’t. We haven’t used it in a long time. Uh, it got set off accidentally, and all the sirens are inside the house, and it’s, and I, “A” I guess we would have a false sense of security, but “B” if that thing ever went off accidentally or you know without fault, it would give me a heart-attack, I mean this was a horrible sound. I never liked that system particularly, we left it hooked up in mind primarily because of a fire detection and monitoring.

TT:  OK. It was just a fire alarm system?

JR:  That was a fire alarm and intrusion, and far as I know the fire alarm part always worked.

TT:  Okay. Who packed your bags to go out to Charleviox?

JR:  Uh, well Patsy packed, I think, the kids bags, and was just going to take a dock kit.

TT:  Okay . . .

JR:  Because I had another full set of clothes up there.

TT:  Okay. So you guys don’t have to take a lot of luggage or anything like that, uh?

JR:  We packed some presents that we were going to take up the day before . . .

TT:  Where were those presents at?

JR:  Well I taken up, I grabbed them Christmas morning I think, or late Christmas morning and I took them up to the airport Christmas day . . .

TT:  So they were already out of the house . . .

JR:  They were out of the house and in the airplane, preloaded.

TT:  Okay. What kind of, what type of, you just carried a little small bath kid, shaving kit I guess; uh, how big of a suitcase does Patsy carry for the kids and herself?

JR:  Oh, I don’t remember, I remember there were some suitcases sitting out by the back stairs, uh usually it’s three of them, bags.

TT:  Normally does take any suitcases, full size big suitcases, or anything like that?

JR:  Well not for that short of trip.

TT:  Okay. How much space do you have in the plane, as far as, storing luggage or anything like that?

JR:  Uh, a lot.

TT:  Oh is it?

JR:  Yeah, well never seems to be enough, but it’s got to be a fair amount of baggage space.

TT:  A couple of small suitcases, throw them and you’re don’t?

JR:  Uh huh.

TT:  Okay. How do you think Burke, how did Burke feel about going up to Charlevoix? Did he talk to you about that at all?

JR:  Uh, no actually I think, well I don’t remember I guess it was really my idea, I wanted to spend Christmas up there, and I didn’t want to have to haul all the present for the kids up, so we just had Christmas in Boulder and was going up the next day, and uh, Patsy wasn’t real excited about the idea, because the winter can be kind of nasty up there; we’ve never spent Christmas up there, and that was kind of my plan.

TT:  Okay . . .

JR:  And Burke likes to go up there, but I don’t remember him specifically saying one way or the another; I think when he worries is when there’s, mean the presents were fine, but . . .

TT:  Any comments made about it, about why do we have to go to Charlevoix, we got all our toys here?

JR:  I don’t think we anticipated those comments, I don’t remember he making any . . .

TT:  Okay. Is it kind of, it sounded like Patsy didn’t really want to go up, and had a hassle about going up to Charlevoix. . .

JR:  No, no, not really, she was not to crazy about the idea, but . . .

TT:  She kind of came around towards the end?

JR:  Yeah, yeah she uh, in the end was kind of looking forward to it (inaudible) because we were going to have the kids up there, and it was going to be fun.

TT:  John, what did you wear over to the White’s house that night, do you recall?

JR:  Uh, I think I had like a black knit sweater shirt kind of thing, uh, and probably wore some khaki colored pants, but I don’t remember specifically, I guess I wore some kind of pants.

TT:  And this is one thing we talked to Patsy about; Patsy gave scarves to everybody, was that at the White’s house? Or was that back on the 23rd . . .

R:   Uh, I think that was on the 23rd . . .

TT:  Fleet and the Fernies and all that?

JR:  Yeah, that was the 23rd. Yeah, when he had the Christmas party, I think it was the 23rd, yeah.

TT:  Let me show you some pictures here and make sure, see if this is one of the scarves that Patsy is given out or this is the scarves that you have here? This is a picture . . .

JR:  No the scarf was given to me by, uh my daughter Beth.

TT:  Okay. That’s not one of the scarves then, that Patsy given out

JR:  I don’t think so, it, I mean it looks (pause) not to my knowledge, I mean this looks like the scarf that Beth gave me. She got this scarf in Scotland.

TT:  Okay. What’s on the tag there?

JR:  I mean that’s what it says, but it says Targart Shops, I, it looks like the scarf that Beth gave me . . .

TT:  Okay. I’ll describe for the tape here, because of the tape doesn’t see the picture; uh, this is a picture of your sink area, right at the bottom of the spiral staircase, sinks and drawers, there is a looks like a black colored scarf, plaid colored scarf, sitting on the top of that counter there. Thanks John. But, that wasn’t one of the scarves that was give out to your knowledge.

JR:  Well I say it looks like the one that Beth gave me, I would have to see it in hand; but I think most of the stuff she gave out were uh, what she gave me, I think a plain red one, I don’t know, I don’t remember. She can tell you because she bought them.

PB:  Okay. Steve you have anything further on December 26th?

ST:  John let me just make sure I have this right. You arrived home from the White’s approximately what time on the night of the 25th?

JR:  Uh, 8:30 p.m., quarter to nine.

ST:  Okay . . .

JR:  No not, arrived home from the White’s at uh, probably 9:00 p.m. or 9:15 p.m. somewhere in that range . . .

ST:  And you carried JonBenet up from the car that was in the garage, and she had not awaken at anytime? Then you placed her upon her bed is that right?

JR:  Uh huh.

ST:  Was Patsy with you, was that sort of commiserate with, when Patsy changed her into her nightclothes?

JR:  I think Patsy came up behind me, and the normal routine is that JonBenet sat behind me in the car, so I got her out of that side, and Patsy kind of got Burke out and going into the house. Uh, then she came up.

ST:  Were you in the room, I’m sorry I interrupted you – were you going to finish that thought . . .

JR:  . . . No, I think she came up either right behind me or shortly right behind me.

ST:  Were you in the room when Patsy changed JonBenet into the clothes she wore that night to bed, her pajamas?

JR:  Uh, I don’t think I was, no, I don’t . . .

ST:  So, you can’t recall with any certainty what JonBenet went to sleep in that night?

JR:  No.

ST:  OK. And then you stayed up what length of time after coming out of JonBenet’s room?

JR:  Well I probably got Burke to bed somewhere between 9:30 p.m. and 10 to 10, probably a quarter to ten, and the uh, I went right upstairs to bed.

ST:  Okay, did you go through you normal toothbrushing and facing washing routine and then go to bed; and I didn’t jot it down, but I think you said that . . .

TT:  (inaudible) but you have to answer because if you don’t . . .

PB:  . . . You have to answer verbally John because (inaudible)

ST:  Yes, let’s make it clear . . .

PB:  Because nodding the head doesn’t mean anything . . .

TT:  . . . Yeah, I’m sorry Steve go ahead.

ST:  You bet. John, and that question, was it then I think you said about 10:30 p.m. or 10:40 p.m. that you retired to bed and fell asleep for the evening?

JR:  I think lights were out about 10:30 p.m., 10:40 p.m., yeah,

ST:  And after you put JonBenet to bed, until the time you went to bed and put the lights out, did you ever return to that room again that evening?

JR:  No.

ST:  And did you sleep the entire night from 10:30 p.m. or 10:40 p.m. until the next morning?

JR:  Uh huh.

ST:  And did you ever arise, or awaken and leave the bed at any time during that night?

JR:  No, not that I recall.

ST:  Okay. And it was then the following morning that you and Patsy got up and first discovered that JonBenet was missing, is that correct?

JR:  Well, I’d gotten up at a little before the alarm went off, 5:30 a.m., 5:25 a.m. and went and took a shower; was getting dressed and uh, heard Patsy screaming, and I ran downstairs and I think probably intercepted her maybe in the landing there, the second floor landing I don’t remember exactly; but, ah she showed me the note and uh, . . .

ST:  Did she show the note on the second floor landing?

JR:  I don’t remember, uh it seems like I came downstairs, but I think she was running up and I was running down, I think, as best as I can remember, the note was still down on the first floor.

ST:  Go ahead Tom.

TT:  Telling me you shaved, showered, cleaned up, you’re out of the shower by the time I hear Patsy scream. Which set of stairs is the note, front of back did you run down?

JR:  Back,

TT:  OK. Is that kind of normal, the set of stairs you guys use to go up and down?

JR:  Yeah.

TT:  OK. You run down stairs and about where was Patsy at when she was running up the stairs?

JR:  Well, I don’t remember exactly, but I think she was kind of either coming up the spiral staircase or was up fully. I just kind of remember, kind of meeting her.

TT:  Actually why don’t I just talk to you and I’ll go back and try to get some of the things we missed. Kind of talk to you just like you did on the 25th. You guys meet on the landing, what happened after that?

JR:  Well I’m, it’s a lot of screaming going on around that, but we saw the note and read the first part. Ah, I think I might have run upstairs to look in JonBenet’s room. At one point I laid it on the floor and spread it out so I could read it real fast without having to sit and read it. At some point we checked Burke, I think I checked Burke. Patsy asked what should we do, and I said call the police, and she called 911.

TT:  Patsy called 911 (inaudible).

JR:  Yeah. It was, I remember she was on the phone, I was, I think that was when I was looking at the note again, which was on the floor and I was in the back hallway.

TT:  OK. Can we back up for just a little bit. Was JonBenet’s, when you guys were coming back, do you recall whether JonBenet’s door was opened or closed?

JR:  I didn’t notice.

TT:  OK. When you went to check on Burke, was his door opened or closed?

JR:  I can’t say, I don’t know.


TT:  Can you recall pushing open anything?

JR:  Well, and I can’t, normally is partially closed, but I can’t specifically remember that it was opened, but I don’t remember it being abnormal.

TT:  OK. Let’s go back further, was Patsy screaming in a high-pitched scream, shrill scream, control scream, how loud did she scream?

JR:  It was a scream of panic, (inaudible) was my name, like something was badly wrong.

TT:  OK. When you checked on Burke, did he, was he disturbed at all by that, did he wake up at all by that scream?

JR:  No, he was asleep still.

TT:  OK. Hadn’t moved at all from where he was at. OK. And you checked on Burke before the 911 call? Is that how you did, you went to JonBenet’s bedroom and then to Burke’s? How’d that all play out?

JR:  I don’t remember, I mean it was so dramatic. Ah, I don’t, I think I checked on him, you know, fairly quickly, but I don’t remember exactly the sequence.

TT:  Let’s move back downstairs, Patsy makes the 911 call, she talk through that on the kitchen phone?

JR:  Uh-hum.


TT:  Which is right around the corner from the floor that you talk about where you were reading the note?

JR:  Right Uh-huh.

TT:  What happened after Patsy called the police?

JR:  Well, I think she called the Fernies and the Whites and just screamed at them to come over.

TT:  OK. What happened after that?

JR:  Ah, well, it wasn’t very long before the uniformed officer showed up. And I met him, I remember talking to him in the hallway, the front hallway. And I said our daughter’s missing and I remember him saying did she run away, and I said she was only six years old. And at one point, I don’t remember if I had the note in my hand or Patsy brought it, but I showed him the note. And then some other people started to arrive.

TT:  OK. You talking about the front hallway, kind of there right there at the living room entrance?

JR:  Uh-huh.

TT:  Is that where you showed him the note also?

JR:  That’s my recollection, yeah.

TT:  OK. After the first uniformed officer got there, kind of fill me in. First, he was addressed, what happened after the (inaudible) with the . . .

JR:  Well, I think a couple of more showed up and . . .

TT:  More uniform?

JR:  Right, and ah, and they asked (inaudible) I don’t remember the exact sequence, but the Whites and the Fernies came fairly quickly. The first officer that was there which I think was Rick French, asked us to stay in the sun room which is that front corner room. So he kept us fairly well (inaudible) in there. And then my (inaudible) came relatively quickly and they set up a, and there were some other plain clothes people there I think. They set up a recorder on the phone and started to talk with us, you know, about what, who could have done this. We spent some time talking about what I should do when I answered the phone and there was some confusion; the note said I’m going to call between 10 and or between, it was 8 and 10 tomorrow. Not sure if tomorrow was today or actually tomorrow. But I was prepped to answer the phone from 10 til (inaudible) to answer it. Then someone calls.

TT:  (Inaudible) That Detective (inaudible). You woke up Burke and got him out of the house, how did that all come about?

JR:  Well when the Whites came, Burke was still asleep. And we decided it was best for him to go away to Whites house. And I don’t know what time that was, but I got him up I think, as I recall, and Fleet took him over, I think to their house. And they had guest company there, so there was somebody there to watch the kids.

TT:  (Inaudible)

JR:  Right.

TT:  Did you help burke get dressed that morning or . . .

JR:  I don’t remember how Burke got dressed.

TT:  And did you take him over to the Whites, or did somebody else do that?

JR:  I think Fleet took him over, as I recall. I didn’t.

TT:  OK. (inaudible) the phones there, and then while that’s going on, things are, and I’m jumping around a little bit. Why don’t you keep going on to talking through, telling you how to answer the phone and that sort of thing, what happens throughout the day after that? (Inaudible) and went.

JR:  Ah, well, I remember they took me aside, and we sat in John Andrew’s room which is the one next to JonBenet’s and she went through what I should do when we talked to the caller and I must insist that I talk to JonBenet and that we need until 5 o’clock to raise the money. I’d actually called my (inaudible) and arranged for the money. Ah, and I think we had by that time started to wonder if one of the housekeepers might be involved. And there was some activity around that direction. We waited until past 11 and then we, and then I think we were in the living room and Linda said why don’t you take someone and look through the house and see if there’s anything you notice that’s unusual. And Fleet and I, Fleet was standing there and said he’d go with me. And we went down to the basement, went into the train room, which is, you know, the train set is, and that’s really the only window that’s, would let in entrance into he basement. And actually I’d gone down there earlier that morning, into that room, and the window was broken, but I didn’t see any glass around, so I assumed it was broken last summer. I used that window to get into the house when (inaudible) I didn’t have a key. But the window was open, about an eighth of an inch, and just kind latched it. So I went back down with Fleet, we looked around for some glass again, still didn’t see any glass. And I told him that I thought that the break came from when I did that last summer and then, then I went from there into the cellar. Pull on the door, it was latched. I reach up and unlatched it, and then I saw the white blanket, (inaudible).

TT:  When you saw the white blanket, was JonBenet completely covered up? How was she laying there, cause I wasn’t there that day.

JR:  She was laying on the blanket, and the blanket was kind of folded around her legs. And her arms were tied behind her head, and there was some pieces of black tape (inaudible) on her legs, and her head was cocked to the side.

TT:  (Inaudible)

JR:  I’m all right.

TT:  I know this is (inaudible) after you found JonBenet, and (inaudible) if you would, where was Fleet at when that happened?

JR:  I don’t remember. We never, I was, I was, Fleet was behind me, but I don’t remember him going from that point to when I brought her upstairs. He might have been right behind me, I just was so . . .

TT:  Can, could you tell me step-by-step when you found her, tell me how you picked her up and tell me (inaudible).

JR:  Right. I found her and I, the first hope of course is that she’s OK. I took the tape off her lips, and her lips were blue. And I tried to untie her hands and her arms. She was stiff, and so I was afraid that she was gone, and so I just picked her up, and screams, and the I went upstairs and laid her down on the floor and I heard Suzanne, she said she’s dead.

TT:  OK. Tell me, you talked about you picked her up. Again, I have to use for the tape more than anything.

JR:  I picked her up, you know, under her arms.

TT:  So, she’s up and down.

JR:  Uh-huh.

TT:  OK. You carry her upstairs that way?

JR:  Right.

TT:  OK. Steve you have some questions?

ST:  Well, let me follow up on this John. John I’m very sensitive to how tough this is, and you’ll appreciate that we need to get through this. On that trip to the basement, shortly after 1 p.m. on the 26th, Fleet showed you the window, the broken basement window.

JR:  No, I, I think was the first one to enter the room.

ST:  OK, but . . .

JR:  I said, you know, this window’s broken, but I think I broke it last summer. It just hasn’t been fixed. And it was opened, but I closed it earlier and we got down on the floor and looked around for some glass just to be sure that it hadn’t been broken again.

ST:  And Fleet had talked about earlier being down there, I think alone at one point, and discovering that window. When you say that you found it earlier that day and latched it, at what time of day was that?

JR:  I don’t know. I mean it would have been probably, probably before 10 o’clock.

ST:  Was that prior to Fleet’s first trip down?

JR:  I didn’t know he was in the basement. I didn’t know that. I mean other than that trip with me.

ST:  And on the trip that you latched the window, were you alone when you went down and latched the window?

JR:  Yep.

ST:  And on this, what I’m assuming is only your second trip to the basement on the 26th with Fleet, how much time did you spend in the basement before moving to the cellar room door?

JR:  Not very much time. A minute maybe, or less, probably less than that.

ST:  And when you moved to that cellar room door to open the door, did you move the tag on the top of the door?

JR:  Yeah.

ST:  And did you open the door?

JR:  Yeah.

ST:  And did you open the door?

JR:  Uh-huh.

ST:  And was the light on or off?

ST:  I think it was off.

ST:  And did you turn the light on?

JR:  Probably, I don’t remember specifically turning it on, but probably would have, it’s a dark room.

ST:  From the time you opened the door of the cellar room, when did you discovered your daughter, was this a fraction of a second or a matter of seconds, give me an idea.

JR:  Instant. I mean, as soon as I opened the door I saw the white blanket. And I knew, I just saw a blanket, and I knew that was our, you know.

ST:  and was it then you instantaneously opened the door, saw the blanket, you may or may not have turned the light on?

JR:  Uh-huh.

ST:  You don’t know? In all fairness.

JR:  In fact, I don’t remember.

ST:  OK. And then moved to your daughter. Did Fleet accompany you into that room?

JR:  I don’t remember him being there. But I just, I mean I don’t, I remember later thinking I didn’t hear Fleet scream out or call for help or say anything at all, and that frankly seemed odd, but I might have just been out of my mind, I don’t know. I don’t remember, I don’t remember him, I mean once I went to that door from, and when I took those stairs, I don’t remember where Fleet was.

ST:  Was it fairly immediate in which you removed the tape and the binding?

JR:  I immediately moved the tape.

ST:  The tape first?

JR:  Yeah.

ST:  And do you recall if you just simply discarded the tape on to the ground?

JR:  I just, yeah, I just, I don’t know what I did with it, but I just discarded it.

ST:  And when you say you undid the binding, was that a knotted fashion around both wrists?

JR:  Yeah. I tried to get her, I tried to get it completely undone. So when I took her upstairs, it was still partially around her wrist.

ST:  John, again, how was she positioned on the blanket, was her head to the south end of the cellar room?

JR:  Ah, her head was, well the door is on the east side, and her head was going towards the inside of the cellar. So, her feet were closest to the door. I guess, and, I could draw it for you, I mean it was, trying to think of my directions.

TT:  Is it OK if I have Ann sketch out how . . .

PB:  If you want her to.

TT:  That would be helpful for us.


JR:  The door opens this way, (inaudible), her hand was here.

ST:  And was the line of sight immediate from where you opened the door?

JR:  Virtually, I mean.

ST:  OK.

JR:  Like it, I mean just as soon as I opened the door I saw a white blanket.

ST:  And was it almost simultaneous to removing the tape and bindings that you picked up your daughter and moved out of that room with her?

JR:  Not simultaneous. I mean I, bent over and I felt her checks and just talked to her and, I picked her up quickly and took her upstairs.

TT:  John, again I’m not sure if I got the sequence right. You talked about you screamed out also, and Patsy talked about that too. Does that mean when you first went in through the door.

JR:  No, this was when I was carrying her upstairs, as I came out of the door, I just remember him screaming.

TT:  Did he say anything or was he just . . .

JR:  No, he was just screaming for attention, I guess. As I was . . .

ST:  And at that point, and certainly I can understand this, you don’t know necessarily where Fleet was positioned. Do you recall coming out of the room and seeing Fleet at all?

JR:  Coming, I don’t remember that.

ST:  OK. Do you recall when you went up the stairs, Fleet being upstairs at that point?

JR:  No, I don’t remember. At the point I saw the blanket until I laid her on the floor, I don’t remember where Fleet was.

ST:  And did you ever make a second trip, you never went back down to the basement, is that correct?

JR:  That’s correct.

ST:  And on the morning of the 26th, you made one trip alone to the basement, and it was only on the second trip with Fleet that you, then shortly thereafter that you went to this basement room?

JR:  Right.

ST:  OK. When you had previously broken that basement window to gain entry to the home when you had been locked out, can you approximate what month that was?

JR:  Well, I think it was last summer. Because Patsy was up at Lake (inaudible) all summer, and it would have been July or August probably, somewhere in that time frame.

ST:  Did you remove that grate and get down into the window well?

JR:  Uh-huh.

ST:  And what did you use to break the pane?

JR:  Ah, I don’t remember. Might have been my foot, I don’t know.

ST:  OK. You reach in, I’m assuming, unlatched it and gain entry through that small window.

JR:  Yeah.

ST:  Did you then replace the grate onto that window well?

JR:  Oh I probably would have done it that night. I’m sure I didn’t the next morning or, you know, or thereafter.

ST:  Did you remove that whole grate off onto the, off the well, to jump down there and get in?

JR:  Ah, probably. I don’t remember.

ST:  Is there any reason that window went unrepaired?

JR:  No. I mean it’s, Patsy usually took care of those things, and I just rarely went to the basement, so it just, I guess, got overlooked. Although she did think that she asked the cleaning lady’s husband to fix it over Thanksgiving when they were doing some repair work there, but I don’t know if that’s ever been confirmed whether he fixed it or not.

ST:  And you mentioned when you went down in the morning, the 26th, and it was unlatched, did that strike you as odd or did you bring that to anybody’s attention?

JR:  I, I don’t know. I mean when I was, I think, yeah, I think it probably struck me as a little odd, but it wasn’t, I mean sometimes that window would be open because the basement got hot, or one of those windows would be opened. So it wasn’t . . .

ST:  Particularly unusual?

JR:  It was dramatically out of the ordinary, but, that is, I thought about it.

ST:  Tom, am I interrupting you?

TT:  No, go ahead.

ST:  OK. Sir, I have a question regarding the security of the home on the night of the 25th, which led to the morning of the 26th, and I don’t know if you’ve had an opportunity to review the police reports that were provided to you.

JR:  I scanned them.

ST:  Did those, what you read in those, are those factual?

JR:  Well, they was a couple of areas where I think there was some misunderstanding or wasn’t correct. I did not check every door in the house the night before. I don’t think I checked any door. I think I was tired, wanted to go to bed, get up early. Ah, and I think the other part I noted in there was they said I read to both kids before I went to bed, and that did not happened. What happened was the kids went to bed and then I read to myself in bed.

ST:  John, let me ask you this. Do you attribute that to simply an officer’s error in recollection or might you have said that and . . .

JR:  I wouldn’t have said that. I think it might have been, maybe the way I said it, that was misinterpreted, but we clearly did not read to the kids that night. JonBenet was asleep, we wanted Burke to get to sleep, so we could get them up early the next morning, so . . .

ST:  You mentioned on the morning on the 26th after the note was discovered, certainly you wanted to check on your son, and you went and he was in his room unharmed, I’m assuming. And it was a conscious decision or did you simply want to get back to Patsy, to let him sleep through this episode?

JR:  Well, I think he was asleep and that was the best place for him to be for awhile.

ST:  And then later in the morning, and I’m guessing and correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s 7 or 8 o’clock at some point, you went up and awaked him, and he ultimately went to the White’s home. Did he stay in his room, was he undisturbed this whole time?

JR;  Uh-huh.

ST:  OK.

JR:  I think so.

ST:  What phone did Patsy use to call for help that morning?

JR:  The kitchen phone.

ST:  And do you recall, and you only speak for yourself, can you tell me the movement of the note, was it lying on the floor, and did you leave it undisturbed, or did you grab it in your hand and . . .

JR:  Ah, inaudible) in the hallway, I grabbed it my hand and then remember specifically laying it out on the floor, so I could read the whole thing really fast and then at one point we gave it to the first fellow who came in. And then I think, (inaudible) I lost track after that.

ST:  You said you had a minute or a moment you were able to briefly read the police reports that you were provided. At one point, I think that Detective Arndt notes that you were unaccounted for that morning. Is that any time the morning of the 26th, John, that you left the house?

JR:  No.

ST:  OK. It would be no reason, a neighbor or anybody else, would account for you outside the home that morning?

JR:  No. I didn’t leave the house until we left it for good at almost 1:30.

ST:  John, do you know who this person is from Shreveport who has communicated with us and is indicating that they’re a friend of yours?

JR;  Huh uh.

ST:  And again, just for the tape, that was a . . .

JR:  No, no I do not.

ST:  OK.

JR:  I have lots of new friends I didn’t know about.

ST:  Certainly, and am I correct in assuming then that this women from Tucson is in that same category?

JR:  Bullshit. I have no clue who she is.

ST:  John, as you know that I have been over at Access, and done a number of, by checking on a number of people over there, is there anybody that you feel that we’ve missed that there is further inquiry?

JR:  Well, I think, I mean hopefully we give you everybody that we’ve identified just, and certainly one of the first persons that we mentioned I think was this Jeff Merrick, who was discharged and left in a very disgruntled manner. There was a person that came up, which I think they’ve given you the name, I can’t remember the names. Somebody out of our tech support group, who was really a real strange case, and a, I think (inaudible) mentioned his name. I didn’t even know him, but.

ST:  I know who you’re talking about.

JR:  Well, three or four really strange people that we’ve fired, terminated.

ST:  John, can you think back and, I’ll tell you I feel in some aspects I know you’re life better than my own family’s, but as far back as Microsouth and APG, the mergers to Access, is there anybody, been anybody that’s been stepped on, squeezed out . . .

JR:  Well, the ah, and if I go way back, that is go back to early 80’s I guess, we have formed a company with a group out of Syracuse, and ran for a couple of years in Atlanta initially. Closed down and a business loss, a hundred and fifty thousand maybe something like that. And that was not a pleasant party because it was some hurt feelings. That could be on that goes back for 25 years.

ST:  Well, we’re willing to do whatever it takes. Is there a specific individual?

JR:  Well, the individuals were a guy named Hurb Webb, W-E-B-B and his partner Charles Grosser.

ST:  And they are still findable today?

JR:  Ah, probably in Syracuse. That’s really been the only business deal we’ve ever had where there has never been any acrimony, and it was not, there were no lawsuits. I think everybody as disappointed because that, the relationship didn’t work out. We never communicated again, so.

ST:  John, this $118,000, is that a, do you believe that to be tied to your 95 bonus paid in 96?

JR:  Well, that’s, I mean that occurred to me later as I started to think about what that number meant, and I thought, gee that might have been the net amount of my bonus. I didn’t even know that until we had, we went back and looked. And that was paid in February of 96, and was $118,223 or something like that. And I think that’s a plausible place where that number could have come from, and it certainly showed up in every pay stub of mine from then on, through the rest of the year. It was deferred compensation, so separate out of your gross pay. The only other logical theory that I’ve heard is this one that apparently you found a small book or a bible with some verses circled. And Father Rol also said I heard that 18th Palms was a very vengeful Psalms. And those are the two logical theories I’ve heard for that number.

ST:  Tom, I want to keep going here for a minute, if you’re OK with that. John, as our times is short, you are certainly aware that we’re going to put some hard questions to you today. There is no doubt about that, and we got through it with Patsy and her attorney, and we’ll do the same here. But one of the things we ask ourselves is if this was an outside intruder who came into the home and did this, who would bare such a hatred or a grudge. Certainly along those lines, as you know, and my preference would have been to ask you and have done it discretely. But we were made aware of an infidelity of your marriage to Lucinda, and Lucinda shared that. And that has been a person that we have not been able to find, and I can assure you, we asked this as discretely as we could, as you can ask a question like that to certain person’s Is that somebody that you would share with us?

JR:  Yeah. Her name was Gloria Williams. This was in the late 70’s. She worked for us, for me, for three or four years I guess.


JR:  No, this was before all that. This was, she worked for, well the company that was formed with this New York group was called Southern Peripherals Instruments. And she worked for that company. We had her as a secretary. And that company, I don’t remember exactly when we closed it down, but it would have been, well let’s see, kind of would been 79 or 80, cause I think it was before Patsy and I got married.

ST:  Do you have any idea if she is still in the Atlanta area?

JR:  I don’t know. I have seen her in, since then. But she was, it’s really one of those things your regret in life, but she was also a very, you heard of the movie Fatal Attraction, I didn’t go see it because I think I could have written it.

ST:  Well, with that said John, is she somebody that bares further inquiry in this case?

JR:  It seems like a stretch since it’s been so long. But if I think back in my past and there was people that I’ve angered, certainly I angered her.

ST:  If we continue to have some sort of working relationship, is that something that certainly through our attorney, you might assist us with?

JR:  I’d be happy to.

ST:  John, let me ask you, quite frankly I have several questions for you that are tough questions, but have there been any infidelities on Patsy’s part in your marriage that would have let to bitter feelings or . . .

JR:  No.

ST:  How about on your part?

JR:  No.

ST:  Is that a definitive no?

JR:  Absolutely.

ST:  John, I’ve noticed you made a comment on the 26th regarding, and it was a (inaudible) comment, about this being an inside job. But if this was someone that you know who did this, who would have had to best opportunity to have come into your home and move throughout your home and wrote a note on a pad in your home to have done this?

JR:  Well, and that morning we had certainly focused on the cleaning lady. I mean she had free reign of our house, she had a key, she had spent the weekend, well, had worked there on Thanksgiving weekend, we were out of town. There had been some very bizarre behavior. Shortly before we left town, she called and asked Patsy if she could borrow some money, and Patsy said yes, and then she called, I think it was, I don’t know, Saturday, or something like that, and was crying and had had a fight with her sister, and Patsy said her sister was really mean and she hadn’t paid her rent and she threw her out of the house and then, (inaudible) happens. And ah, that was my first suspicion, and it was, I think that comment was kind of formed on just thinking that. And based on the room was just such an out of the way place that, I just don’t anybody could have walked in off the street and . . . Normally it’s full of Christmas stuff. I mean it’s just packed, you couldn’t get in, because we store all our Christmas stuff so, you know, it’s ah. I mean, based on what I understand, there was a practice not and all of that. Somebody obviously spent some time there, and I guess found their way around the house the same time, but my, I mean my theory is that someone came in through the basement window. Because it was a new Samsonite suitcase also sitting right under the window, and you would have had to, you could have gotten into the house without that, but you couldn’t have gotten out that window without something to step on. And to even have known those windows were there, wouldn’t have been obvious to somebody who just was walking by. But . . .

ST:  You talking about the window in the back, was not obvious?

JR:  Yeah. No, I mean, yeah, it’s not obvious, but that is to me because that is the way to get into the house, and we know that the grate could be pulled off and the windows were not painted shut and, you know, it’s just I guess that’s why we never gave it much thought about . . .

?:   And we asked a couple of times that that grates kind of out of the way, and you have to, I wouldn’t have known it was there. I mean, you can’t see from the back alleyway, you can’t see from the front. It’s out of the ordinary, out of the way picture, excuse me, out of the way window.

JR:  Yeah. And when I went down and looked around the house that morning, and I think I’d made a statement or at least I read, I know I said this, that all the doors were locked and I had checked, I believe, every door on the first floor. And they were, appeared to be locked.

ST:  So the morning of the 26th do you recall checking all the doors, and they were locked?

JR:  I believed I checked all the first-floor doors, yeah. I did go out once. I went out to the door that leads into the garage to see if it was locked because there’s a bunch of boxes piled in front of it and you couldn’t get to it from the inside of the garage. So I did in fact go out of the house once, which would have been for, you know, half a minute.

ST:  And that was from where to where?

ST:  I went out the side door around to the back of the garage to see if that garage door into the garage was locked.

ST:  And then immediately back into the house?

JR:  Yeah.

ST:  And that wasn’t an excursion that exceeded 30 seconds?

JR:  No, at max.

ST:  John, one of the things, as you know better than anybody, at some point, if you’re not involved in this, we’ve got to take you out of the bucket. And you’ve been in it for four months and you certainly know why you’re in that bucket is you’re in the house, and I don’t need to say anything more than that. But, and I ask this question of Patsy, and where it might come out if (inaudible), but I’ll ask it. And I’m not asking you to take one, but if you were to take a polygraph, how would you do?

JR:  Well, what I’ve been told is that, and I felt tremendous guilt after we lost JonBenet, because hadn’t protected her, like I failed as a parent. And was told that that’s, with that kind of emotion you shouldn’t take a lie detector test because you did have that guilt feeling, and, but, so I don’t know about the test, but I did not kill my daughter if that’s what you want to ask me. She was the most precious thing to me in the world. So if the lie detector test is correct and it was done correct, I’d pass it 100%.

ST:  John, let me tell you this, I feel like an encyclopedia salesman sometimes, because I‘ve gone to a number of people in this thing, and it’s hard to convince somebody to take a polygraph test. But I’ve been successful on occasion with some people that I’ve been concerned about, and used what I’ve been told, is one of the ten best FBI calligraphers to do that. And I’ll ask you point blank, at some point in this, would you take a polygraph?

JF:  I would be insulted if you ask me to take a polygraph test, frankly. I mean if you haven’t talked to enough people whose telling you what kind of people we are. You guys, I mean, I will do whatever these guys recommend me to do. We are not the kind of people you’re trying to make us out to be.

ST:  And John, let me respond to that, but go ahead.

JR:  And, it’s a tragic misdirection I think that you’re on. And the sooner we get off of that, the sooner we’ll find who killed JonBenet.

ST:  And John, let me tell you my simple heartfelt response to that, and Pete’s heard this before. Decisions are made at pay grades above ours.

JR:  I understand.

ST:  What is sometimes done and not done. But we’re dedicated to pursuing the right path and the truth in this thing. And you’re absolutely right, John, in that I have talked, and you know I’ve talked to friends and neighbors and family and associates.

JR:  You’re extremely thorough.

ST:  Well, take that as a compliment, but if you didn’t do this, I’ll go to bad as I did with John Andrew, I exhausted John Andrew and made sure that there was no way that have could have got a flight between Atlanta in the middle of the night and to the point I checked flight schedules and passenger list. I’ll do the same for you, so I’m not taking it personally, because I don’t think it’s directed at me as to . . .

JR:  It’s directed into the direction that the effort has been made, in my, from my visibility, and all I see is a lot of effort and time and money being spent to try and categorize Patsy and I as child abusers and that can’t be further from the truth.

ST:  Well, John, I’ll tell you this. I’ve sat in a North Carolina jail cell with a suspected child serial killer, hoping that I could put him in Boulder on December 26. So there’s two sides to that, and it doesn’t sell papers when I’m chasing when it’s not John Ramsey.

JR:  I know that.

ST:  But with that said John, let me say this. You said on CNN, we’re not a big department, these things don’t happen every day anywhere. So we defer to experience as well, and we go to the guys at the FBI and say help us, you know. You’re the experts in this thing. And just let me through my concern out and you don’t have to respond, and John, certainly I’m not pointing a finger at you. But the FBI, these guys who do it everyday, say Steve, there were clearly steps taken in this case to make this look like something it wasn’t. This is how it happens in the movies, it is not how it happens in real life. And they said all that was done, was done, and all that was made, was made to make this look like something that wasn’t there. And one theory, at least, is that something happened in the house that may have been accidental that turned to panic that turned to cover-up. And . . .

JR:  That’s a false theory.

ST:  OK.

JR:  That’s baloney.

ST:  But.

JR:  and that, anyone that knows Patsy and I can tell you that that is total bullshit. Pardon my French.

ST:  John, are you involved in any way in the death of your daughter?

JR:  No.

ST:  Are you involved in any way with the preparation of that note?

JR:  No.

ST:  There is now ay then, I’m assuming John, and I’m not making this adversarial because I have a great deal of affinity for you personally. Whether you hate me or like me or indifferent to me, I will make the commitment to you as I have from the start, that I will go to the ends of the earth to find the truth about your daughter. And I don’t care if it was you or whoever it was, that is what I’m committed to do.

JR:  And I’m delighted to hear that. I mean, want the killer of my daughter found. And I will do the same thing. I will spend every dime I have, I will spend every minute of time I have if that’s what it takes, to find who killed her.

ST:  Well, let’s work on getting you out of the bucket, if that’s the right thing to do, and go the right direction.

JR:  Well . . .

ST:  And I’m not saying there’s a sole direction in this, John, because I can tell you, more often than working the John Ramsey lead, I’m working the stranger, intruder leads.

JR:  And I know, I know you guys have worked on some other things and that unfortunately been, we’ve become kind of story for the press to play with and we can live with that, but what I want to be sure of is that we’re spending our time finding who did this.

TT:  And John, I can address that. I can assure you that we have so many people to look at. Unfortunately, the other people we look at don’t sell papers, and to be frank with you, and these papers don’t know what we’re doing. There’s a lot of speculation why we’re doing this, we’re doing that, this and that, and that’s pure speculation. I don’t sit down with newspapers and talk to them, I don’t have a reason to, and I can assure that the people that work on this investigative team don’t do that. So they don’t have any inside stories to, who we’re looking at, what we’re doing. In fact to be honest with you, nobody knew these guys were out in North Carolina, when we were out in North Carolina, they found out afterwards. Because that doesn’t sell the newspapers. Unfortunately, you guys do. So there’s two sides of the story here. We’re not just focused on you and Patsy, there’s a whole list of people; we’ve got to get people off the list, is solely what we’re doing.

JR:  OK.

ST:  Everything as far as we’re concerned today John, has it been freely voluntarily offered and truthful?

JR:  Yeah.

ST:  And do you anticipate, as I do, after when we can exclude you, to participate with us from our side of the table, to get the right thing done?

JKR: I want the right thing done, absolutely. I want the killer of my daughter found.

ST:  Well you know my commitment. And John, I can tell you this, seven days a week, with probably days off since this thing started, and that’s a hundred-hour work week, we’re putting in.

JR:  I know, I know that.

ST:  OK. That’s all I have for now. Let’s get off this topic.

TT:  Actually let’s back up for just a second on a couple of things. I know Bryan, it’s 10 to 5, we don’t need to keep going on. I’ve got just a couple of things. Let me, John, you mind putting your name on this, that this is your note, or this is your drawing that you wrote marking in some way that you put the date down, being the 30th of April 97.

BM:  We would like a copy of that before we leave today.

TT:  We can do that. Also put the case number up at the top and the (inaudible) stage one, if that’s what it was, with my signature.

JR:  OK.

TT:  Second, John, let me have, we going to have back here for just a second, you got up, showered and got dressed, did Patsy get up and shower and dress that morning?

JR:  Well, she got up, I mean she was downstairs. I don’t remember if she took a shower or not. She was, I think she was dressed when I saw her first.

TT:  And I know you guys are, the dressing room is kind of split there.

JR:  Right.

TT:  Normally, can you hear Patsy move around on her side of the room?

JR:  No, not usually.

TT:  Do you recall whether she had make-up on, hair brushed out and everything, when she came up and was yelling at you?

JR:  I don’t remember.

TT:  And, I might have missed this, I didn’t catch it on my notes, you got out of bed first that morning, did you get out or did she get out?

JR:  I got up first.

TT:  OK. And let’s also hop back to the grate for just a second, cause I picked the grate up, it’s really heavy, I mean fairly heavy. Picked it up, moved it out of the way, kind of hopped down, I mean first peaked into that window, hopped down into that window well, you ended up, have to kick the window, break the window somehow, reach in and unlatch it. How far of a drop is it, or is it difficult I should say, to drop from the window well.

JR:  No.

TT:  It seem like it’s, for me I think it’s probably . . .

JR:  That high.

BM:  Do you want an estimate of that?

TT:  Certainly.

JR:  it’s probably, I don’t know, four feel maybe, five feet.

TT:  OK. But on the outside you’ve got that kind of skinny narrow window well. Did you have an difficulty sliding into that or sliding down the wall?

JR:  Yeah, well, as I recall, I did it at night and I had a suit on, and I took my suit off and did it in my underwear. But, it’s not easy, I mean you can get in that way, you get dirty, but.

TT:  It’s not a graceful way to get in.

JR:  No, no.

TT:  It’s difficult because of the angles.

JR:  Right.

TT:  All right.

ST:  Tom, let me just ask John this. Do you sit down and slide through, buttocks first if you will, through a window like that or, do you recall how you went through the actual window, John?

JR:  I don’t I mean, I don’t remember. Seems like, I mean, I don’t remember, but I think I would probably gone in feet first.

ST:  Feet first, backwards?

JR:  Yeah.

ST:  And when you went through in your underwear, were you wearing shoes or?

JR:  I still had my shoes on, yeah.

ST:  And were those with a suit, were they business shoes.

JR:  They were probably, probably those shoes.

St:  OK. And what are those shoes?

JR:  Business shoes.

ST:  And for the record, are those, brown lace-up, men’s business

JR:  Oxford, not these shoes, but they are shoes that I wear with a suit, just a pair of business shoes, dress shoes.

TT:  John, when you went down in the basement the first time and found the broken window, it was unlock, you latched it, did you notice that the window, excuse me, if you notice if the room was overly cold or anything like that?

JR:  No, it wasn’t. I didn’t notice that it was.

TT:  OK. And you were fully dressed when you went through the house/

JR:  Ah,

TT:  Considering what time of morning it was.

JR:  Yeah, I’m sure I was, yeah.

TT:  OK. You remember any lights on in the basement when you went down the first time?

JR:  Ah, no, not specifically, I don’t I mean, I don’t remember if any were on the first time.

TT:  Do you remember turning on lights?

JR:  Well, I would have had to to see my way around, I’m sure I did.

TT:  John, would you be willing to come back at a later date, time to help us with this, go over anything else that we need to go over. Obviously, through Bryan, but any other questions that come up, any names that you have that we haven’t looked at yet, any problems to giving those to Bryan and then to us?

JR:  I think, hopefully, we’ve given you every piece of information that we have, and will certainly continue to do so.

BM:  We do not have a problem with that. What we are trying to do is to now drown you with the same kind of nonsense you’re drowning in from the outside, cause we get it too. We’ve tried to give you the things that we think may have something to them. We are absolutely willing to continue to do that.

TT:  OK. Again, Patsy came up with a couple of people, specifically like a list of the construction people that have been in your home since . . .

JR:  there’s been catering people in there, I mean that, unfortunately, there’s been a lot of people in our home. We had a home tour a few years ago.

TT:  OK. One of the things we asked Patsy for was a list of the contractors that’s been back in the house since the end of December, to replace the carpet, clean up the mess we made. We want those kind of things.

JR:  I see (Inaudible)

TT:  OK. You guys could call me, but I’m available 24 hours a day, Bryan’s got my card in case you need to reach me. You can reach me personally or through Pete any time of day in case you guys hear something.

ST:  Just for the tape, the warrant of obligations it’s 5 p.m. and we’ll conclude the day, and John we sincerely appreciate your coming down here.

JR:  You’re welcome. And I know you guys work hard and put in a lot hours. What’s important to me is being put them in the right direction. No, ah, I know you’re . . .

ST:  The intentions are right on the meat and potatoes of this thing that are working it every day, so . . .

BM:  We’ll accept that.