BOULDER POLICE INTERVIEW
Interviewer: Boulder Police
Interviewee: Patsy Ramsey
Date of Interview: April 30, 1997
Interviewed At: Boulder District Attorney’s Office
Case: Hasson Ramsey
ST: Detective Steve Thomas
TT: Detective Tom Trujillo
PR: Patsy Ramsey
PB: Pat Burke
BM: Bryan Morgan
PH: Peter Hoffstrom
JF: Jon Foster
NOTE: This version has been prepared from a transcript provided to Global Reporting & Video, Inc. on October 10, 2002. Numerous inaccuracies in spelling, punctuation and other textual errors have not been corrected.
ST: Just sit down.
ST: (Inaudible) so I’m going to keep half an eye on this as we, as we go this morning and, and Jon certainly let me know as you need to take a break to changes tapes or anything.
JF: Alright Steve.
ST: For the, simply for the record, uh, let me state today is Wednesday, April 30. 1997. The time is 9:05 a.m. My name is Steve Thomas. I’m a detective with the Boulder Police Department. Present in the conference room at the Boulder District Attorney’s office are myself, Detective Thomas Trujillo, Chief Trial Deputy Peter Hoffstrom, Mrs. Patricia Ramsey, Mr. Patrick Burke and Mr. Jon Foster. Just some quick introductory remarks and some housekeeping and we’ll get started here, but Patsy I want to speak specifically to you and tell you that we appreciate you coming to the table today, uh, and your involvement with this and our intention, and I can speak for myself and I think the other persons on this side of the table, is to establish some sort of ongoing dialog. And to that, uh, I think today as an important leap of faith for both sides and uh, I appreciate your comments of wanting to work with us and, and we desire that as well. As you know and as I’m sure Pat’s told you today, we’re going to ask some difficult questions as well as some easy questions and the difficult questions are simply necessary in a case like this and I think you can appreciate that and understand that and we’ll try to get through that as best we can and we’re very sensitive to this Patsy. I want to assure you of that. Uh, I have uh, and you don’t know me personally, but I’ve gone to bat for John’s two oldest kids, uh, John Andrew and Melinda, and despite what anybody thinks about me, I will continue to do whatever is necessary as will Tom and Pete to find the truth in this case and that’s what we’re all looking for. Uh, I will tell you that we will work this until we bring it to a successful conclusion and we will do that and to do that we desire your cooperation. Um, as necessary today Jon and Pat and Patsy, we’re pretty flexible. If you need to take a break or compose yourself, uh, if it’s lunchtime, whatever you need, we’ll work around those things. I think Tom’s going to start and he probably has uh, uh, maybe several hours of questions for you and I might jump in intermittently, but it’s a two way street and I, I’ll just turn it over to you Tom.
TT: Okay. Let’s just (inaudible) a little bit. Kind of tell me a little bit about yourself, your background, where you were born, kind of the nuts and bolts kinds of stuff.
PR: I was born in Parkersburg, West Virginia, November 29, 1956. I attended school there, uh high school. I, I was (noise of someone pouring water, Patsy’s voice is inaudible during that sound) college (inaudible) Charleston, West Virginia and (there is a very loud scraping sound which covers Patsy’s voice) short time (more background noise) and then I moved to Atlanta in the summer of 1979 and was working for McCann Erickson Advertising Agency (inaudible) And in 1980, November, I married my husband, John.
TT; Okay. So let me back you up just a bit. What high school did you, Parkersburg, Parkersburg High School right?
PR: Parkersburg High School.
TT: Okay. What kind of clubs were you in? What kind of activities did you do in high school?
PR: I was a cheerleader in the 10th grade. I was on the drill team my senior year.
TT: Drill team?
PR: Like a, like a dancing, with the band.
TT: Okay. Not like a . . .(inaudible)
PR: Pom pom kind of thing, you know, yeah, no.
PR: Um, I was in student government there.
TT: Did you hold an office those senior years?
PR: Uh, I don’t remember.
PR: I was president of the student body when I was in the 9th grade . . .
PR: . . .in junior high school. And I was very active in the speech and debate team there and uh, participated regularly in that group.
TT: Where did you go to college at?
PR: West Virginia University.
TT: Okay. And you graduated from there.
TT: What was your degree in?
TT: Okay. How’d you do with that? How’d you do in college with your journalism degree?
PR: I graduate Magna Cum Laude.
PR: And uh, my emphasis was in advertising so that’s what I did for a, some short time after I graduated.
TT; Okay. And you were Miss West Virginia, Miss America about what did year did all that happen?
TT: Okay. That’s during college.
TT: Okay. Did any scholarships come out of that?
PR: Yes. I uh, there was some scholarship for winning Miss West Virginia. I can’t remember exactly how much and then at the Miss America pageant I won a non-finalist talent award and I think it was a $2,000 scholarship for that.
TT: I’ve got to ask which talent.
PR: (Laughter) “The Kiss of Death” dramatic dialog.
ST: (Inaudible) Miss Jean Brody.
PR: Your right.
TT; Was that, was that earlier?
PR: “The Pride of Miss Jean Brody.” Well actual. . . no it wasn’t, actually what happened, uh, I did the Miss Jean Brody, I competed in high school with that and uh, placed nationally with it and then I had done that for Miss West Virginia and won with that and then when you go to Miss America you have to do through this business of um, in the event you make the top ten and your on television there are all these rights and royalties or whatever they call it and uh, I have, they have to give you clearance, okay, and to make a long story short, I was unable to get clearance for this. Uh, I can’t remember exactly the details, but uh, I ended up writing a dialog that I used and I don’t even remember, but it had a lot of the same characterizations and that kind of thing. It was all, I was definitely thrilled when I won the talent, you know, because it was a real chore getting there.
ST: I bet.
TT: (Inaudible) Atlanta in ’79 and who did you live with down there?
PR: I lived with Dan and Claudia McCutcheon.
PR: Who had been friends from Parkersburg.
TT: Did you guys move down there together?
PR: Well, I went to Atlanta with Dan’s sister, Stephanie, who was my age.
PR: And we had been roommates in college for a year and we went down to visit her brother and sister-in-law . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .who had also gone to high school with us so we were all friend. And um, we went, I think initially for just a short visit and then came back a few weeks later to, and decided to move to Atlanta. Stephanie had gotten a job and, and I was still interviewing with advertising agencies.
TT: You (inaudible) get a job with Hayes Computers you think?
PR: No, I, that was much later.
PR: I had worked with McCann Erickson Advertising Agency.
TT: Okay, so you worked as an advertiser to start with.
TT: When you first moved to Atlanta you lived in an apartment building?
PR: Um hum.
TT: Same place that John lived, is that right?
PR: Well we were, we were guests at Dan and Claudia.
PR: You know, kind of sleeping on the couch there.
PR: In a one bedroom apartment and John lived upstairs.
TT: Okay. Where was this apartment at? Do you have any idea . . .
PR: Where was it?
TT; Yeah. Do you know the address or anything?
PR: Uh huh. It was Post River Apartments on Talersbury road in Atlanta.
ST: Downtown Atlanta then?
PR: No, this was north . . .
TT: On the outskirts.
PR: . . .Atlanta. Marietta. Uh huh. But we were only there for just about a month actually . . .
PR: . . .staying with then.
TT: All righty. Um, tell me about some of the TV shows you guys watch. You specifically. Uh, say in recent history, last, the last year. What kind of TV shows do you guys watch?
PR: I don’t watch TV much.
PR: You guys, who guys?
TT: You, John, Burke.
PR: Burke likes Discovery.
TT: Okay. Discovery Channel?
PR: He likes the Discovery Channel.
PR: And John likes the Weather Channel.
PR: He’s a pilot.
TT: Is this a, is that because he’s a pilot?
PR: Yeah. And he watches that, whatever the, you know the thing that runs across the bottom with the stock market . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: I don’t know what that is.
TT: Okay. What’s the. . .
PR: And he likes old movies.
TT: Okay. What’s the last book you read?
PR: Last book I read?
TT: Um hum.
PR: I am reading right now um, “At Home in Medford” by Jan Carran.
TT: Okay. What other kind of books do like to read?
PR: You know, I don’t read a whole lot, because I’m usually so tired by the time I go to bed.
PR: Um, uh, I’m just drawing a blank.
TT: Okay. Do you, do you get to the movies at all? Have you been out to see any shows at all?
PR: Oh, I have . . .
TT: I, I know it’s difficult in the last couple of months. . .
TT: . . .because of, of what’s (inaudible).
TT: Let’s say before December, what kind of movies have you and John gone out to see?
PR: Well, actually we didn’t go out to movies very much, because we had a home theatre . . .
PR: . . .so we would usually we’d see everything about a year after it came out.
TT: Once it came out on video.
PR: Yeah, but we, you know, the kids liked to watch movies up there . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .we watched “Forrest Gump” and . . .
TT: Do you and John watch movies at all up there?
PR: Uh, yeah, but I usually fall asleep. He, he usually goes, gets the movies and there not my favorites and I usually fall asleep.
TT: Okay. What kind of, what kind of movies did he, do you guys end up starting to watch.
PR: Um, he likes Mel Brooks (water being poured drowns out Patsy’s voice). He liked 1941. He loves animal House. I got him that for Christmas, and uh . . .
TT: So the kind of comedy type movies.
PR: Um hum.
TT: Okay. Patsy, are there any concerns in the neighborhood up there or have there been any concerns in the neighborhood up there (sound of flipping pages drowns out Tom’s voice.) . . .door to door salesman. Any of your neighbors talk about prowlers anything like that over the last six months?
PR: Uh no. Not that I recall. I mean we did have door to door sales people occasionally.
TT: Um hum. Magazine sales, the typical sales people come (inaudible) come through.
PR: Yeah, sometimes children, you know, like a, um, black children. I mean, they don’t look like they’re from my neighborhood or nothing, or look, you know like they’re from Denver and they have candy bars of (inaudible). . .
TT: Typical kind of door to door sales.
PR: Um hum and um, you know that’s the only thing I can recall.
TT: Okay. How close are you to your neighbors? I know the Whites and Fernies, they live away, but to the immediate neighborhood, the street you live on. How close are you to the neighbors?
PR: You mean close in distance or . . .
TT: Not too much specifically, do you know your neighbors?
PR: Do I know them very well. Well the Barnhills across the street . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .I know very well.
PR: Scott and Pricilla next door, I know fairly well.
TT: They live to the south of you.
PR: Well uh . . .
TT: is that towards Baseline?
PR: No the other way.
PR: Towards Cascade.
TT: Alright. You and the neighbors on the block that you know or you talk to, socialize with at all?
PR: Not really very much, well Mary and Pat Van live down two doors . . .
PR: . . .on the corner of Cascade and 15th. . .
TT: Same side of the street?
PR: Uh huh. But we didn’t, you know, I didn’t see them very often, but just to wave and . . .
TT: How often do you talk to the Barnhills or have you talked to the Barnhills in the past?
PR: Uh, I kind of keep, you know their elderly . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .and I would kind of, you know every two or three days probably . . .
TT: Kind of keep in touch with them:
PR: Uh huh. They, they kept our dog a lot . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .when we went out of town or whatever. Joe was, last year about this time, around Easter time, he was quite ill with some respiratory stuff and I was taking groceries and dinners and . . .
TT: Kind of taking care them.
PR: Yeah. Kind of keeping my eye on him.
TT: Okay. In talking to them had they noticed any weird people around the neighborhood, anything like that in the last six months?
TT: Anybody that shouldn’t be? I know it’s, Boulder is real transient, I understand that . . .
PR: Um hum.
TT: . . .but, um, have you guys ever talked about any problems in the neighborhood, um, car break ins, anything like that?
PR: No, not that I can remem. . . (coughing) I think once the neighbors across the alley . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: Uh, they drive a black SAAB and I think a year or more ago they had had a, they were parking on 14th Street and they had a car break in and uh, consequently they build a, I think they build a deck on their house so that they could pull in under, you know, behind their house.
TT: So they could park in the back?
TT: Do you need a glass of water?
PR: (Clears throat) This is, this is just right.
TT: (Inaudible) Okay.
TT: (Inaudible) And when we talk to you, everybody knows Patsy Ramsey pretty well, um, tell me about some of the enemies that you or your family might. Someone that we may need to look at. Can you think of any names that come up as far as people that don’t like you. Don’t like Patsy. Who don’t like the family at all.
PR: You know. If that’s the case, I’m not aware of it.
TT: Okay. Nobody’s talked about the problems that they’ve had with you?
TT: Okay. You know John’s been in, in the computer business for quite a few years.
PR: Um hum.
TT: Starting his own company, merging companies, stuff like that.
PR: Um hum.
TT: Up through the years, as the companies have merged together, any bad feelings between employees maybe getting squeezed out, um, anything like that that your aware of?
PR: Not that I’m aware of. I think, when, when they merged uh, to the best of my knowledge, when they merged to form Access, all the three companies that were merging all played a role somehow, you know.
TT: Um hum. No body (inaudible).
PR: Nobody got squeezed out I don’t think.
TT: Demoted anything like that. Moved out of top management positions or shuffled around at all?
PR: Not, not that I’m aware of no.
TT: Okay. Any problems when Access moved into, into Boulder from Atlanta. People that didn’t want to move to Boulder or anything like that that you are aware of?
PR: Um, no. Hum um.
ST: Um, Pat, let me jump in with one quick one on Access, uh, um, I was charged with investigative a lot of the aspects of Access employees that had been dealt with, a lot of the VPs over there and so forth . . .
PR: Um hum.
ST: . . .um, I was made privy to some information that there may be some sort of either IPO offering or management buyout. Uh, was anybody going to get hurt by that over uh, in the Access Corporate office. Was that going to hurt anybody that would . . .
PR: But, I don’t know what IPO is?
ST: And Initial Public Offering if they, if they took the company public, um.
PR: You know, I, I really don’t know anything about that.
ST: Okay. Fair enough.
PR: John didn’t really discuss. . .
TT: Bus . . .business matters with you.
PR: Not, no. Hum um.
TT: Okay. Patsy, I need to go through a couple of things here. What medications are you on right now? Are you still on Paxel?
PR: I’m on Paxel, um hum.
TT: How often do you take that?
PR: In the evenings (inaudible) once a day.
TT: Just a bedtime?
PR: Um hum.
TT: And, what’s the dose on that?
PR: 30 milligrams.
TT: And, are you taking anything else right now?
PR: I just started Monday taking something for this sinus infection. I know your going to ask me the name of it.
TT: Is it an over the, I’ll start (inaudible).
PR: No, it’s a prescription.
PR: You take it once a day for five days. Dr. Beuf prescribed it.
TT: Okay. And, are you taking anything else right now?
PR: Um, no.
TT: Any over the counter medication, vitamins . . .
PR: Vitamins. I’m taking vitamin C.
PR: (Inaudible) vitamin C.
TT: Just for that sinus infection?
TT: Is that an ongoing type or just . . .
PR: Well, I just. . .
PR: I just, since Monday started taking a lot of it.
TT: Okay. Okay. Um, any, any other uh, any other drugs, originally you were taking Paxel and what was the other drug you were taking? Lorzipan.
PR: Ah yeah, right.
TT: Are you still taking that at all?
PR: Uh, occasionally. Kind of as, on an as needed basis.
TT: When was the last time you took the Lorizpan?
PR: Uh, I took one last night about 6:30.
TT: How’s that, how’s that one make you feel. I mean, out of the two do any of them effect you at all that you can notice?
PR: I mean I don’t really notice anything, but I, usually I take the Adavan if I’m, I start getting, evenings are difficult for me.
TT: Um hum.
PR: When I start getting tired and I feel the onset of this, not feeling real good. Last night I was pretty, I just been missing JonBenet a lot lately.
PR: And uh, you know, it, it seems to, to kind of quell that . . .
TT: Takes the edge off a little bit.
PR: Takes the edge off a little bit.
TT: What kind of dose are you taking on the Adavan when you take it?
PR: Uh, a half milligram.
TT: Okay. Took it last night, how, about how many times a week are you taking that? Once, twice?
PR: Well, probably a couple.
TT: A couple of times a week is all?
TT: Okay. The Adavan and the Paxel, um . . .
PR: The Paxel is an anti-depressant.
TT: Um hum. Either one of them, do you think either one of them’s kind of, uh, changing your thought process or clouding your mind, memory, anything like that?
TT: Okay. It’s not, not effecting any judgment or anything like that?
PR: No, huh uh.
TT: Okay. Um, I all this, I know with the sinus infection your probably not even thinking about it, um, have you taken any alcohol? How much alcohol . . .
PR: No. I don’t drink alcohol.
TT: Okay. Uh, do you drink alcohol at all?
PR: No. Not since I’ve been on the Paxel at all.
TT: Okay. When did you start the Paxel?
PR: Uh, I don’t know. February maybe.
TT: Okay. Beg…towards the beginning or the end of February?
PR: I can’t remember exactly.
TT: Okay. And the Adavan, did you start that about the same time?
PR: One’s kind of a, I think one, is the way she explained it to me, one kind of works, takes awhile to start taking effect and the Adavan is kind of an on the spot, doesn’t last very long, but helps you.
TT: Okay. Now is Dr. Beuf still prescribing all that?
PR: No. Uh, Rebecca Barkhorn, that’s my doctor (inaudible)
TT: Okay. Um, around between thanksgiving and Christmas I know you guys traveled back and for the Atlanta quite a bit to see your folks and stuff. Um, between Thanksgiving and Christmas time, before Christmas, did you guys make some trips back and forth to Atlanta?
PR: We went to Atlanta, excuse me, at Thanksgiving.
TT: Um hum. What about after Thanksgiving before Christmas, any other trips to go back and see your mom?
PR: I, no, I don’t think so.
PR Not that I can remember.
TT: Um, I’m, going to talk about the medical stuff. I know you had cancer about three years ago?
PR: It will be four years in July.
PR: I was diagnosed.
TT: And you went out to Washington to take care of that.
PR: Bethesda, Maryland.
TT: Um hum.
TT: Um, everything’s going okay with that?
TT: I know the stress . . .
PR: Thank God.
TT: I know the stress ca cause some problems with that. Are you doing okay with that so far?
PR: Yeah, I just had a checkup.
PR: Everything was great.
TT: Good. Any other medical problems you’ve had other than the uh, the cancer.
PR: Um no.
TT: Any other surgeries? Spend time in the hospital, other than . . .
PR: At times (inaudible) when I was a child.
PR: Uh. I had a breast augmentation.
PR: You probably, did you know about that?
PR: No the world will know.
TT: No. And actually uh, (inaudible) stuff like that, that staying here . . .
TT: . . .inside. That doesn’t get out. Um, when did you have that?
PR: Oh, 1982 or 3 or something like that.
TT: Okay, way back.
PR: And then I had, when I was finishing my chemo and they were doing a chest x-ray and uh, suspected a rupture, so I had (paper rustling covers Patsy’s voice) locally at the (inaudible) hospital I had my Poriocath taken out, which was where I took my chemo and he went in and checked and both breast, whatever those are . . .
PR: . . .had ruptured . . .
PR: . . .and so he repaired the . . .
TT: Okay. Spend any other time in the hospital?
PR: (Paper rustling. Patsy’s response is inaudible.)
TT: Patsy, kind of tell me about your, your normal, normal morning routines. You know, how do you get up in the morning? What time do you get up? Get up by alarm clock, the sun? Kind of walk me through what you do normally in the morning?
PR: Now or . . .
TT: Sure. Let’s start now and then we’re, we’ll work back. (Inaudible)
PR: Okay. Uh, now I get up usually a little before seven and uh, get Burke rallied and get him ready for school and get his breakfast and pack his backpack and make sure he has his homework done and tie his shoes and . . .
TT: Get him going?
PR: Get him out the door.
TT: Okay. After Burke gets ready do you get up and shower out and get ready to go for the day?
PR: Uh, sometimes. I mean, I don’t have much that I go . . .
TT: Okay. Don’t have a set schedule.
PR: . . .out to do lately, so . . .
PR: Sometimes go back to bed. Sometimes I get dressed.
TT: Okay. Let, Let’s hop way back before Christmas. Kind of walk me through a normal, normal morning for the family, for you guys.
PR: Um, get up and usually I would get up uh, and get showered and get dressed. I didn’t (paper rustling causes Patsy’s voice to be inaudible) get dressed before I got the kids up, but um, get the kids up and, Burke usually, you know, dresses himself if I kind of lay his things out and that kind of stuff, but I would get JonBenet dressed and do her hair and all that and . . .
TT: Get her ready for school.
PR: Get her ready for school. Breakfast.
TT: Okay. Did you have to use an alarm clock to get up or you . . .
TT: (Inaudible) hop out of bed . . .
PR: Yeah, I usually just (paper rustling) get up.
TT: Kind of hop out of bed in the morning person. Can’t do it.
TT: Not a morning person.
PR: If you get the kids off to school . . .(more paper rustling).
TT: You know John uh, John had some problems, kind of was in the hospital (inaudible) when you were going through cancer (inaudible due to background noise) treatments. How did that turn out?
PR: He had paracraditus.
TT: Um hum.
TT: Kind of an inflammation around the heart?
PR: Right. And he had bee to Mexico and I will always believe he got something nasty in Mexico . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: Um, but he, one evening he was grabbing his chest, you know, and I said what’s the matter and he said, oh I have this little chest pain and I said well it must just be indigestion they said that if your having a heart attack your arms hurt and he said well, my arms kind of hurt.
PR: In the car. So we took off to the hospital.
TT: Now was that here in Boulder or was that down in (inaudible).
PR: That was Boulder.
TT: That was in Boulder? Okay. How many days did he, did he spend overnight in the hospital.
PR: Uh huh. Yeah.
TT: Just one day in the hospital.
PR: Um, (paper rustling causing Patsy’s voice to be inaudible) one or two.
TT: Nothing permanent though.
PR: No. He took some kind of medication for it and that was (inaudible) . . .
TT: Strong antibiotics and all that and . . .
PR: Yeah. I can’t remember what the name of it was.
TT: Does John have any other major medical problems at all?
PR: No. Well, he had uh, he goes to Mayo Clinic regularly and uh, this past fall he had some prostate tests. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: Um, but those were all fine.
TT: Okay. So he’s in generally good health?
TT: Okay. Other than the one or two days in the hospital um, for his paracaditis, any other stays in the hospital for John?
PR: Um, I don’t, not that I recall.
TT: Okay. Kind of a, who handles the finances for the family, the checkbooks, pays the bills, that kind of stuff?
PR: He does.
TT: John takes care of all that kind of stuff?
PR: Well, I have a checkbook that I write, you know, my kind of, the personal things, you know, like, whatever, housekeepers or household kind of stuff, you know, but, he usually does (inaudible).
TT: And that’s, particularly what your talking about, that’s, those kind of personal . . .
PR: You know like laundry . . .
TT: . . .housekeeping stuff.
PR: . . .and you know.
TT: Is that the checkbook you wrote the check to Linda Hoffman out of?
PR: Uh huh.
TT: Okay. And that’s uh, she was going to borrow $2,000 is that right?
TT: On uh, the, on Friday the 26th? That’s when she was due back in the house. Christmas was Wednesday.
PR: Right. Oh yeah, I think that’s right, yeah.
TT: Okay. Do you remember if you ever wrote her a check for that $2,000, because I know she talked about it.
PR: Right. I don’t think I did, because I think, I was thinking about that as I walked down the stairs that morning, that I, oh, I’ve got to remember to leave that check.
PR: And then everything broke loose.
TT: Okay. She never picked it up or anything. She never stopped by later and got the $2,000.
PR: I don’t (paper rustling causes Patsy’s voice to be inaudible) left that day so I don’t know what happened.
PR: I mean I didn’t write the check, so.
??: (Inaudible) on the break.
TT: Um, tell me about Burke’s normal bedtime routine before Christmas. How does, how does he normally go to bed.
PR: Oh, he, he um, usually does his homework and then puts his pajamas on and sometimes reluctantly and . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: He loves to watch Discovery so he tries to, but he’s suppose to be reading a half hour a night, so we would read to him a little bit or he would read to himself and so he was generally pretty good about going to bed.
PR: About 8:30 or so.
TT: (Inaudible) About what time does he . . .
PR: About 8:30, um hum.
TT: Burke also has a TV in his room, right.
PR: Well, the TV doesn’t really work. He used it for videos.
TT: Okay. He also, what kind of videos was he playing?
PR: He loves anything that has to do with airplanes. He has, you know, these flight instruction tapes and . . .
TT: They’re flight, like flight simulator that flies . . .
PR: No, mean like the real (inaudible) pilot tapes, you know, to learn how to fly.
PR: He like to watch those and.
TT: Okay. So he’s looking at doing that as a kind of a hobby or something?
PR: Oh yeah. He loves airplanes, like John.
TT: Patsy let me talk about some employees. And some of these you might not know. Um, maybe only John knows about them. I just kind of go with you some names and see if any of these ring a bell to you. Do you know Brian Perry at all? Does that name right a bell to you?
PR: (Whispers) Brian Perry. Um, no.
TT: Okay. What about a Reed Lindsley. Reed Lindsley.
PR: Reed Lindsley?
TT: Yeah. Does that name ring a bell to you at all?
TT: Okay. And actually something that I might ask for you, kind of at a later date, so that you don’t have to sit down and do that today. You guys have had quite a few construction workers or painters and . . .
TT: . . .obviously carpet layers in the house.
TT: Um, since we were in there. Is it possible to get a list of. . .
PR: Oh, since you were in there?
TT: Right. Since we were in there.
TT: Um, is it possible to get a list of construction workers or construction companies, contractors, that sort of thing, um, if you can sit down maybe at a later time and, and put together a list for us.
PR: Oh, you mean like that has done . . .
TT: (Inaudible) house.
PR: . . .things since you all took . . .I don’t know whose been doing that. Do you know whose been doing that? I don’t know who . . .
TT: Okay. Um, what I’m looking for is, kind of think of who all has been in your house since then (inaudible).
PR: Oh, okay.
TT: (Inaudible) contractor type people.
PR: Oh, I don’t know, but we could probably get that.
TT: Okay. That would be great. Um, do you know Ray Fitzgerald at all? Does that name ring a bell to you.
PR: Ray Fitzgerald? No.
TT: Okay. Um, you guys had a, a Foyer Group meeting back on the 13th.
TT: You want kind of . . .
PR: What is that?
TT: What is the Foyer Group, yeah.
PR: The Foyer, it’s a Foyer dinner group from church . . .
PR: . . .from St. Johns and um, they have small groups , kind of a dinner group assigned and you meet with that group throughout the year, usually like school year.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And you have dinner in each others home, but this particular, there are like dinner, individual dinner groups of maybe six to ten that meet in each others homes and then the entire Foyer Dinner Group which is made up several of these smaller groups. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .had a Christmas party at our house, so the entire group was invited.
TT: (Inaudible) the six to ten of that, six to ten couples or six to ten people?
PR: (Inaudible) Might be couples and singles.
TT: Right. So, about once very six months to ten months you rotate around to another house. Is that, to have dinner. Is that right?
PR: Right. Well, I think they have, they meet monthly, you know, and like if we’re all in a group we’d go to your house one month and my house one month . . .
PR: . . .or whatever.
TT: Okay, and so about once a, once every five to six months you have a host of a group of a, a group six to ten people . . .
PR: At your house, right, uh huh.
TT: Okay. Now, is this just a dinner group, religious group . . .
PR: Well, they’re, they all go to St. Johns so their, you know. . .
TT: It’s not like you sit down and discuss the Bible while your eating dinner or anything like that.
PR: No, it’s more social. Yeah.
TT: It’s all social. Okay.
PR: Yeah, uh huh, yeah.
TT: About how many people were over at the house on the 13th?
PR: Oh, you know, 50 or 60 maybe.
TT: Okay. Quite a few then?
TT: How many total, do you have an idea about how many total Foyer Groups there are? Are there about 10 groups then?
PR: Probably yeah. Well, no. I think there are more than that, but I think, you know, not everybody came.
PR: I know there are a couple of pages worth, I think. I don’t, I don’t remember ever having counted them exactly.
TT: Do, do you have a list of the people that were over to the house on the 13th?
PR: No, but Carolyn Blyley probably does.
TT: Over at St. Johns?
PR: Yeah, she’s, she put it together. She just called me and asked me if I would have it at our house and I think, you know, I wouldn’t have to do anything just have my house . . .
PR: . . .she know I decorate a lot for Christmas and all that.
TT: So you were just kind of the host house. . .
TT: . . .invite everybody.
PR: Right. She sent the invitations and all that.
TT: Okay. Steve.
ST: No, go ahead.
TT: Okay. Patsy, tell me, let’s start with Burke. Um, tell me about some of the kids that he plays with. Tell me some of this playmates.
PR: Um, well, he is among a group of seven boys in his class.
PR: Uh, he uh, Doug Stine, plays with Doug Stine and . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .Luke Fernie are buddies and Anthony Pechio, from his class. Those are, Luke Fernie does not, goes to Mesa, but . . .
PR: . . .he’s just a friend otherwise.
PR: Um, He played with the Colby boys which, who live behind us. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .in the alley, played with them.
PR: Quite frequently.
TT: So he had kind of two distinct groups, at school, social group and then the neighbor. . .
TT: . . .social group?
TT: Okay. Um, other than the two boys across the alley, I know from the neighborhood, there’s not a lot of little kids in there.
TT: Um, any other kids that, that Burke would play with around the area?
PR: Well, sometimes, uh, Scott and Pricilla’s children from other marriages would be around. Weston, Wesson or Weston and uh, Reid is the little boy I think.
PR: And then on the other side of us is uh, Luke, whose older than Burke, but he always been around occasionally, you know.
PR: And that’s about all I think.
TT: Okay. What about some of JonBenet’s playmates? She had some in school?
PR: School mostly, yeah. Well, pre-school, Quinn Hasley was one of her best little girlfriends.
PR: And uh, Daphne White.
TT: Um hum. Did they all go to the same pre-school?
TT: And that’s . . .
PR: First Presbyterian.
TT: Down of 15th and Canyon.
TT: Is that right?
PR: Um hum, um hum.
TT: Okay. Okay.
PR: And uh, then this year in Kindergarten she like little Annie Smart and uh, Megan Kostinick. She liked them.
TT: Okay. Did these little girls ever come over to you, to your house to play?
PR: Um hum. Um hum.
TT: About how often would they come over?
PR: Oh, about once very couple of weeks maybe or so.
TT: Um, what about uh, Burke’s friends. How often did they come over to the house?
PR: Well, the Colby boys, you know, since they were neighborhood kids, they seemed to come over more frequently, because they just, more accessible.
TT: Um hum.
TT: They’re the ones right behind you in the alley?
PR: Right. Oh, I don’t know. A couple of times a week maybe or . . .
PR: . . .something like that.
TT: Okay. Patsy, we got a uh, got some information for a friend of yours down in Shreveport. You know anybody down in Shreveport, Louisiana?
PR: I don’t know anybody down in Shreveport.
TT: The name, that come up at all you guys know of?
PR: I think I heard something about it in the press or something, but I never have known anybody that I can remember in Shreveport.
TT: Okay. Um . . .
PR: Do you know the name? Do you guys have the name?
TT: I, I don’t have the name right off. I don’t have that.
PR: Maybe it’s somebody I knew that moved to Shreveport and I didn’t know that.
PR: But I don’t . . .
TT: Don’t know of anybody that, recent friends that would have moved down there.
TT: Okay. Some of this stuff, may not be able to help us a whole lot. I’m kind of going back to access Graphics a little bit. Um, I think I need to touch on it again, but I will. Any concerns that John’s brought home from work about problems at Access (inaudible). Any employees other than the, we’ve got a couple of employees that you guys were talking about.
TT: And that Ellis has given us.
PR: Yeah. Well, I uh, remember, I don’t know the time frame exactly, but this fellow named Jeff Merrick . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .who was, has known John for several years, I guess from, I think they worked together at AT&T when John was out of college or something like that, but he came to work at Access and was subsequently asked to resign, I think. . .
PR: . . .and I remember John and my dad, you know, works there too, that they were both concerned that he was, you know making threats. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .to Access and he didn’t go quietly in other words.
PR: Uh, and that was, you know . . .
TT: Ellis gave us Jeff Merrick and Mike Glenn.
PR: Mike Glenn, yeah.
TT: Any other names that have come up that that you guys can think of?
PR: Uh, you know, I mean, you just, I mean we have done nothing but try to rack our brains over this . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .since this happened and uh, you know, John, I, John would probably know better about anybody at the office or anything, but just, I remember Merrick and uh, oh Jim Morino, I think we, we kind of, John kind of had him maybe at the top of the list. Um, and this Mike Glenn. And all three, I believe released or if I remember right.
TT: Okay. Now, mike and Jeff um, have they ever been to your home at all?
TT: Okay. When was the last time Mike was at your house?
PR: Oh, jeez, I can’t remember, you know, I, I mean they’d just been there. I know when we kind of first moved we were, it was when we, I remember we were remodeling the patio, so I don’t know when that was. A few years ago. I mean, sort of after we had moved, first moved in we, it was Fourth of July and we went with Mary and Mike and their little girl to Chautauqua Park over the Fourth of July . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: That’s what I remembered and then they came down and had hamburgers and then we walked down to the stadium for the fireworks.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And he dropped by a couple of times and brought John, this is before I think he even worked at Access.
PR: He would bring, he was with the football program. He brought John Colorado sweater one time.
PR: You know, I, I can’t, they haven’t been there anytime recently.
TT: Okay. Since Mike uh, left Access, ahs he been there at all?
PR: Uh, not to my knowledge.
TT: Okay. Um, sounds like he’s kind of dropped in every once and awhile. He wasn’t. . .
TT: . . .wasn’t a frequent visitor at all to the house.
PR: Um, no. Hum um.
TT: Okay. What about Jeff Merrick? How, how often did he come by the house?
PR: Not very often. I remember he and his wife came by when I was under chemotherapy treatment and they uh, you know, we sat in the sun room and talked (inaudible).
TT: Okay, um. . .
PR: I mean they weren’t um, you know, they, we didn’t socialize with them or anything, you know.
TT: Right. Do you know when the last time Jeff was in the house? Would it been kind of the same length as Mike, quite a while back?
PR: It would be quite a while ago.
PR: As far as I can remember.
TT: Okay. Do you know the name Greg Neff at all. Greg, Greg Neff.
TT: Or Neef?
PR: Neef? No. Greg. . .
TT: Does that name ring a bell at all to you?
TT: Any other, and I know you guys racked your brains, not including Access, not including neighbors, any other names that have come up. I know Ellis has given us some.
PR: Well, I just, I mean, I, you know, poured out a list of everybody I could ever remember ever worked for us.
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .or, um, you know, we just, if he’s given you that list, I mean, we just . . .
PR: . . .uh, you know, I mean, you just I can’t imagine that we know anybody that would do such a thing as this, you know, but, but whoever did this is just, mean, evil person.
PR: You know.
TT: Patsy, let’s um, let’s kind of go back to December 23rd. I know you had a party at your house, quite a few people at the house.
PR: Um hum.
TT: And I think I actually have a pretty good idea of who was all in the house . . .
PR: Um hum.
TT: . . .at that time, but kind of walk me through the party real briefly, um, you know a couple of people that were there. . .
PR: Um hum.
TT: . . .what kind of activities occurred, and who was in what parts of the house, that sort of thing if you would.
PR: Um. The 23rd we had uh, the Whites over and she had a lot of family in so they were all guests. Fleet and Pricilla and their two children and uh, her sister, Allison, and her boyfriend, Allison’s boyfriend, and I can’t remember his name, but. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .uh, (inaudible) guy and uh, Allison’s daughter, uh and I can’t, Heather, is her name.
TT: I’m going to stop us for just a second if I can. Excuse me Patsy . . .
TT: . . .because we need just an infrequent interruption.
JF: Are you gonna switch. . .
TT: Change tapes.
(End of Tape 1, Side A)
(Begin Tape 1, Side B)
PR: . . .and the Stines, Glen and Suisan Stine and their son, Doug . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .and I think Susan’s mother was there and Glen’s mother . . .
PR: . . .my father and let’s see, who else? Um, the Fernies, (inaudible).
TT: What did you guys do at the party?
PR: Uh, Joe and Betty Barnhill were there too.
PR: Um, we had dinner and Santa Claus came, Mr. & Mrs. Santa Claus came and we, always had a little poem kind of thing. Give everybody a little gift from Santa.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And the kids decorated gingerbread houses.
PR: The poem you’re talking about is that what, I know, one of the pictures you have, uh, Santa’s reading. . .
PR: Right. A little . . .
TT: . . .out of a black book. . .
TT: . . .and that’s, who does the poem for that?
TT: Okay. That’s the poem in the black book?
TT: Okay. About how long, what time did the party start that night?
PR: Oh, I norm. . .uh, kind of early because I, if I remember I, Santa Claus had two engagements that night and so he came, I can’t remember whether it was like 5:30 or 4:30 or somewhere in there.
TT: So fairly early in the evening?
PR: Fairly early yeah.
TT: Okay. About what time did it break up?
PR: Oh, probably, I don’t know, nineish, 8:30 . . .
PR: Sometime like that.
TT: All right. Um, and this is when they, they decorated the little gingerbread houses. . .
TT: . . .and that kind of stuff. Okay. How do you, how do you decorate gingerbread hoses with that many little kids?
PR: Well, I bought the gingerbread houses at Safeway. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .all ready stuck together.
PR; Then I bought this huge big tub of frosting. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .and Pricilla brought these frosting bags. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .or something like you decorate a cake with and I bought just bunches of jelly beans and M&Ms and all the, gum drops, you know, and al that stuff and the kids just . . .
TT: squirted it out and stuck . . .
PR: . . .squirted it out and stuck it on, you know, it was all over the place.
TT: I bet.
PR: That was. . .
TT: Quite the clean up job afterwards.
PR: That was fun.
TT: Okay. Did um, did Linda come, Linda Hoffman?
TT: Was she there also?
PR: Yes, and her daughter. She had helped me all day getting ready for the party and she stayed through Santa Claus.
TT: Okay. And did her husband show up that night?
PR: Uh, not to my knowledge.
TT: Um hum.
PR: I think she had her car and . . .
PR: . . .I think she drove home.
TT: Okay. So she just stayed after, helping get stuff set up?
PR: Well she, yeah, she, she came, if I remember right, she came a little late that day cause, so she could stay, you know.
PR: On through the late afternoon and evening getting ready for the party.
TT: Okay. Um, did anybody else show up that night. White, Stines, Don Paugh and the Fernies, Barnhills, Mr. & Mrs. Claus, Linda and her daughter?
PR: I . . .
TT: Anybody else that you can remember that was over there that night?
PR: Um, well, John told me that this man came to the door looking for the Barnhills . . .
PR: I don’t remember seeing him, but John said he let him in. . .
PR: . . .and kind of showed him to the Barnhills. You know my dad said he remembers him, this man being there and I think my dad said he invited him to eat something and. . .
TT: Okay. So did uh, Betty and Joe Barnhills know him?
PR: Apparently, yes.
TT: (Inaudible) Okay. Alright. How are you doing? Do you want to take a break?
TT: Go to the bathroom or anything?
TT: Get a drink of water.
PR: No, I’ve got a little left, thank you.
TT: Got a little of your tea left. Okay. Patsy, let’s move over to the uh, to the 24th. I want you to start kind of, actually let’s go more towards the afternoon of the 24th. That would be the 24th of Christmas Eve. The kids are all excited. Kind of run me through that in the same fashion. What did you guys do?
PR: Well we um, uh went to church, the family church service which was at four or 4:30 . . .
PR: . . .something like that. And uh, after that we went to Pasta Jay’s for dinner. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: And then we drove around town looking at Christmas lights and we drove up to the star up on the mountain there and um, I remember JonBenet was miffed because we wouldn’t let her get out and she wanted to walk up into the star . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: And uh, she just had her little velvet Sunday school shoes on, you know, so she was, she said, ‘Well, what’s the use coming up here if you can’t even go up to the star.’ Um, so then we came down, down from the star and we wound around by the White’s house and uh, I think, and we went in there for a few minutes and uh, then we went home.
PR: And, you know, got everybody ready for bed.
TT: Okay. About what time (inaudible).
PR: Oh, gee, I don’t know.
PR: I don’t know exactly.
TT: Okay. Um, go home, go to bed.
PR: Early evening.
TT: Okay. Early evening?
PR: Um hum.
TT: Go home, got ready for bed um, where did everybody sleep that night?
PR: Well, JonBenet was in her bed in her room. . .
PR: . . .and Burke was in his bed and we slept in our room.
TT: Okay. Do you have an idea if JonBenet moved over towards Burke’s room at all that night. Slept in his room?
PR: Um, I can’t remember, can’t remember.
TT: Okay. Is that something that she would normally do?
TT: Sleep in Burke’s room. I know everybody’s got, you got, they both have two beds in their rooms.
PR: Yeah, right um, I don’t think so. I just can’t remember.
TT: Okay. How about December 25th, Christmas day. How did that start out? Who got up first and that sort of thing?
PR: Uh, well, the kids came up and woke us up and John went down, he went to get everything ready, you know, get the lights on, get the music on, you know. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .uh, I think he, he said he had, he brought he, Santa Claus Brought me a bicycle so he had to go get that under the tree. . .
PR: . . .and then we all went down and, into the living room. That’s where we had the Christmas.
TT: Okay. Big tree in the living room. Okay. Because I know there’s kind of trees all over.
TT: What, what do you normally store the Christmas presents say before the 25th.
PR: I the basement. I had them all in the basement.
TT: Okay. Because there were some extra Christmas presents. Who were they for? Do you remember?
PR: Well, I had, I had some uh, bagged up and kind of ready to go up to the lake.
PR: We were going to the lake the 26th.
TT: Um hum.
PR: Michigan. And I had Melinda’s and Stewart’s and John Andrew’s.
TT: Okay. Those were the presents that were down in the cellar still?
PR: Uh. There were probably were some down there.
PR: I don’t know when you mean down still.
TT: Um, on the 26th there was still some presents downstairs.
PR: When, uh, I was, if there were I don’t remember, I had them kind of. . .
TT: Kind of all over the place?
PR: . . .you know, all over, yeah. And I had, uh, I know I had a (Lego?) set down there that I had gotten for Burke’s birthday which was in January, so I. . .
PR: . . .I had that there kind of back, held back.
TT: Okay. Why don’t you walk me through the rest of the 25th. What all did you guys do that day?
PR: Well, I continued to wrap some presents. I went back down to the basement on the washing machine area there and wrapped for taking the stuff to the lake . . .
PR: . . .and the kids were playing with there toys and the Colby kids were over and some other little new kids that moved in a couple of doors up uh, where the Whites had. . .
PR: . . .rented a house two doors up the hill.
TT: Towards Baseline?
PR: Towards Baseline.
TT: Um hum.
PR: Uh, south I guess that is. Um, there were just kids all around, you know, they all playing with all their stuff and . . .
TT: Quite a few kids in the house, around the house?
PR: Yeah, right.
TT: Okay. And then about what time did you guys go over to the White’s house that night?
PR: Um, um, dinner timeish, you know, five or six or something like that.
TT: Al right. What did you guys do at the White’s house, kind of, how many people were over there?
PR: Well, that whole group of her family was still there. . .
PR: . . .and uh, you know what? I think Heather did not come to our party cause she was, had a cold, but she rallied and was there for dinner at Fleet’s house.
PR: Um, so, you know, all of them were there.
PR: And we. . .
PR: . . .were all there, yean.
TT: About what time did you get home from the Whites that night?
PR: Well, we stopped a couple of places on the way home to drop off Christmas gifts.
PR: By the Walkers and the Stines.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And I imagine it was about nineish, something like that.
TT: Okay. Sometime, nine, after nine, something like that?
PR: Some, yeah.
ST: (Inaudible) um.
ST; Uh, quick quick question. Give me some more detail Patsy, if you will, on, on the daytime and afternoon of the 25th. Um, we sort of moved quickly to that evening but, but uh. . .
ST: . . .walk me through that day.
PR: Well, we opened our presents and uh, try to have them do it slowly so it doesn’t it’s not over with in five minutes, you know, and we all opened our things and then we had breakfast and uh, I was packing, as well as wrapping gifts that day. We were, we were going to go to the lake on the 26th so I was putting a few things together for that trip and um, and trying to get the presents together to take up there and then I was packing our suitcases to go, we were going to go on a Walt Disney cruise on. . .
ST: Big Red boat?
PR: Bid Red boat. On my birthday, the 29th. So I was, had summer clothes, trying to get all that ready, so uh, and packing and uh, I think I colored my hair that afternoon, like with one of those quick, you know, uh. . .
ST: Everybody stayed home the whole day. No trips out on the 25th prior to going to the Whites?
PR: Uh, John, I think went out to the airplane to kind of, he always kind of checks, checks it out.
ST: Prior to a flight?
PR: Yeah. So he went out there that afternoon and the kids were just in an out playing and playing with their, JonBenet was making this little jewelry things and Burke had this car that he was playing with.
ST: So you and the kids were home the whole day . . .
ST: . . .prior to going to the Whites and John returned from his short outing. . .
ST: . . .uh, and that was his only trip out that day?
PR: As best I can remember. Yes.
ST: And now I’ll let Tom take it again from (inaudible).
TT: Actually let’s take about five minutes.
PR: Take a five minute break?
PR: Okay, great.
TT: You need a glass, glass of water?
PR: Yeah, that would be great.
??: And just for the purpose of the tape, for the purpose of the tape we’re going to, we’re going to take a break at 10:05.
PR: . . .what that is.
PR: Call your . . .
??: Give me a call back?
??: That works.
PR: I don’t (inaudible) true confessions.
ST: Patsy, I’m going to jump back just a little bit and then we’ll come back to the 25th, but uh, for the record we’re back on the tape at about 10:17 a.m., uh, Patsy, one of the things certainly that we’ve taken a great deal of interest in and looked at is uh, John’s bonus and I familiar with uh, a lot of that a gross amount minus some FICA and taxes and so forth, roughed out to equally the $118,000. To the best of your knowledge, anywhere in the home, was that information available or displayed?
PR: I, I do not know.
ST: Okay. How immediate did it come to your mind or John’s mind uh, that that uh, amount of money asked for in the ransom note roughly equaled John’s bonus? Were you aware of that on the morning of the 26th?
PR: Was I, was I aware of what now?
ST: The bonus amount equaling. . .
PR: I was not aware that, I, I didn’t know that he had gotten a bonus.
PR: Or that that, he takes care of all that stuff and I didn’t know, I think at some time that morning he, I remember him saying that that might be close to a figure that was a bonus that he had gotten, but. . .
ST: Okay. I’m assuming his salary, and I don’t know if you know this, was to $118,000. Do you know what John’s salary was in relation to a bonus being $118,000?
PR: I don’t know any of that.
ST: Are you not privy to any of the financial information in the household.
PR: Well, I’m sure I’m privy. I can see it if want to, but . . .
PR: . . .I just. . .
ST: Okay. That’s not your day to day affair?
PR: That’s not my day. . . no.
ST: Okay. I certainly have chased leads far and wide on SBTC and has that, and over the last four months, brought anything to mind?
ST: Have you had any time to think of any theories of significance of what that acronym uh, might relate to? I’ve heard everything from Smyrna Bank and Trust, Southern Bell telephone Company to uh, everything under the sun, uh, any thoughts on that Patsy?
PR: I mean, I have racked my brain, I mean, if you say, is, have I spent any time on this, I have, you know, I can, I don’t have a clue what that is.
ST: Can you throw anything, you can’t throw anything out on the table for what that might be a . . .
ST: You mom thinks it’s son of a bitch Tom Carson.
ST: It certainly was, you know, thoroughly checked Tom Carson out. . .
PR: Um hum.
ST: . . .but. . .
PR: Yeah, she told me that too.
ST: Was there a problem with Tom Carson and John Ramsey.
PR: Not that I’m aware of um, that, you know might be something you can ask him. . .
ST: Um hum.
PR: . . .I, you know, I just really don’t know much about what goes on at work.
ST: How about, uh, uh, certainly we, we’ve chased a lot of things locally, but were there ever any Charlevoix concerns or concerns in the greater Atlanta area as you live there or continue to have ties there that you’ve thought of that we might be aware of? Any, anybody, zealots, nuts, fanatics in Charlevoix uh, any bad business dealings, bad neighbor dealings, anything at all?
PR: Um. . .
ST: The Northridge home, uh . . .
PR: No, I mean, there was one incident in uh, Charlevoix that, and you can ask John more about this, but, um, he was getting ready to do this yacht race to Mackinaw Island and this fellow, and I can’t remember his name, was going, you know they had to have six, I think a, six or eight people on the crew or something and one of the guys, one of the people on the race had to have done the race before, that was one of the boat rules or race rules or something like that and this guy that they, from the Charlevoix boat store or something like that was going to be, his name was Tim something, Tim, I think is was Tim something, was going to be on the race with them, and they were all suppose to meet in Chicago. Fleet White was going to be on the race and a couple of these buddies of Fleets from California and John and Melinda and John Andrew and then this guy from Charlevoix. Tim Mur. . .Murtock, Murtaugh, or something like that was going to meet them over in Chicago. Well, they were over there the day before the race and it was hotter than blazes that day and this guy never showed, never showed and I remember trying to down his wife. I called his wife and said, you know, where is, where is he. They’re waiting for him, you know, to qualify for this race or whatever and she said well he’s in Chicago, you know, that’s what he told me and he never did show up on that race. Now, I don’t know why he didn’t do that, but they almost, you know, they were pretty, he, John and Fleet were miffed over that. And they had to take a, this woman crew member, you know, which is kind of a, you know, walks around say does anybody need a crew, anybody need a crew, (inaudible) and they said yeah and she happened to have done this race before so they qualified, but that guy, you know, never did show up. Tim Murtock.
ST: How about Atlanta. Can you think back, days in Atlanta and Northridge and (inaudible) and I know, again, you’ve racked you brain and I’m sure you would have forwarded that to us, but anything today that comes to mind.
PR: No, um, no.
ST: Patsy, one of the things that, that I’m, certainly have to ask you about is we try to think of who would have had any reason or intent or motive to have done something like this and what might have pushed them to do something to do this would be terribly strong feelings and um, uh, have there and I need to ask you this, um, has there been any spurned or scorned lovers or infidelities in your marriage to John, uh that we need to look at as a, as a possible actor in this?
PR: No, absolutely not.
ST: And, and let me ask that another way. Have there been any infidelities in your marriage to John.
ST: Are you aware of a woman in Tucson claiming to have had an affair with John.
PR: Um hum.
ST: And what’s your response to that?
PR: She’s an extortionist.
ST: Okay. One person that we have not been able to run down, that I certainly want to exhaust in this ting is uh, a woman who Lucinda revealed to us is having had an affair with John that ultimately lead to the dissolution of their marriage. Um, that was some time ago, but, um, I think people have been reluctant to share that with us. Do you know who this person was?
PR: No, I’m not aware of anything like that.
ST: Are, are you aware of prior to today, because I had to ask Nedra and Pam and Paulie and uh, if they were aware of this person, while we were in Georgia so we could find her, and make sure she’s not some kook that laid in wait for 20 years. . .
PR: Um hum.
ST: . . .um, is today the first time you’ve been made, made aware of this woman?
PR: I don’t know of any woman with, I don’t know anything about this, no.
ST: Okay. Are you aware that John had some sort of infidelity according to Lucinda?
PR: No (Inaudible).
ST: Okay. So you certainly wouldn’t know this woman’s name then?
ST: And you’re not in a position so I’ll ask John if he’ll share that with us. Let’s get off that for a minute and I’m going to let Tom take you back into the 24th and 25th.
TT: Okay. Actually, let’s start back on the morning of the 25th, um let’s kind of break it down into small hours. What time did you guys get up that morning.
TT: Before sunrise?
PR: Sixish probably.
TT: Okay. Patsy, take me through say the first three hours of, of Christmas morning with you and John and Burke and JonBenet. Kind of, kind of in a by minute, step by step of what you guys did for the first couple or three hours.
PR: Well, we went down the stairs and passed out Christmas presents.
TT: About how long did it take you to pass out Christmas presents? I know you talked about you kind of did it slowly. . .
TT: About how long did that take?
PR: I don’t know. Hour, maybe.
TT: Okay. Um. . .
PR: I mean to pass them out and opening them. I try to get everybody to take turns, you know. Of course, their piles are bigger than my pile so . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .they open two or three and then I open one. . .
PR: . . .just, you know.
PR: Cause I take so long to open mine.
TT: You want to savor the moment for a little bit.
PR: Right. Um hum.
TT: What was John wearing when you guys came downstairs that day? What kind of clothing was he wearing?
PR: His pajamas and his robe probably.
TT: Okay. What were you wearing that day?
PR: Pajamas and my robe.
TT: Didn’t get cleaned up or showered or anything like that?
PR: No, no, no, no, kids won’t let you do that.
TT: All righty. Um, what, what are the kids wearing?
TT: Okay. What kind of pajamas does Burke normally wear to bed?
PR: Oh, you know, cotton shirt and pants.
PR: knit kind of stuff.
TT: Okay. Do you remember what color of pajamas he was wearing that day?
PR: That he was wearing?
TT: Um hum.
PR: No, not exactly.
TT: Okay, how about JonBenet. What kind of pajamas was she wearing?
PR: She was wearing, that day, she was wearing pink little kind of insulated underwear sort of . . .
TT: Tops and bottoms.
PR: Tops and bottoms, you know.
TT: Okay. Take you back how to open presents between seven, 7:30, what did you guys do after you open the presents up.
PR: Uh, I think we made pancakes.
TT: Okay. Had some breakfast? Um, about how long did it take to eat breakfast?
PR: I don’t know, a half hour.
PR: Seemed like that.
TT: After, after breakfast how did the family split. What did you guys do?
PR: Oh, the kids were just playing with their stuff, you know, and I was, I don’t remember exactly.
PR: I was, you know, trying to get clothes ready to go two different places. I remember that.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And then a bunch of kids started showing up to, you know, they want to see what each other got and, you know. Burke set up his Nintendo. Nintendo 64 and . . .
TT: During the early morning hours, the morning hours before the kids got there, did everybody go and get dressed I take it?
PR: At some point in the day, yeah.
TT: Okay. Uh, everybody take showers and baths and everything to get cleaned up for the day.
PR: I don’t remember. Doubt if the kids did. I don’t remember.
PR: They’re not interested in baths usually.
TT: Okay. So everybody just got dressed and then kids started coming over to the house?
TT: During the day, about what time did uh, John go down to the hanger and check on the plane?
PR: Oh, I don’t know. I don’t know, lunch time, after lunch, I, I don’t remember.
TT: Okay. Did you have lunch that day?
PR: I’m sure we did.
TT: Okay. Do you have any idea about, what did you have for lunch.
PR I don’t remember.
TT: About how long was John gone when he went out to check the plane?
PR: Oh, probably a couple of hours.
TT: So he left about noon, afternoon sometime. Gone till two, 3:00 in the afternoon?
PR: Um, yeah.
TT: Okay. And were there, there kids over to the house that whole time playing with John, excuse me, JonBenet and Burke?
PR: Uh, a better part of that day I would say.
TT: Okay. And who all, who all was over to the house that day.
PR: Um, Evan and Ky Colby and um, these new little kids from up the street.
PR: I don’t know their names.
TT: Are they uh, a little girl and little boy or two little girls, two little boys?
PR: Uh, I know there were two little girls. One girl was kind of foreign looking sort of like she might be adopted or something and the other little girl was uh, I can almost remember her name? Seems like it starts with an M or I don’t remember.
PR: There were just a lot of, they were inside, outside.
PR: Playing with those, a bunch of the boys had gotten those cars, you know, the remote control and they were all out playing with those.
TT: Okay. Did uh, did Burke and JonBenet play together during that time? Did the little girls and little boys mix up at all?
TT: Play together.
PR: Yeah they were all, yeah, a lot of them were in Burke’s room playing that Nintendo and she was, I remember coming up there and checking on them and they were, the boys were mostly sitting around playing the Nintendo and she was, had this little jewelry making kit right there in the, in the doorway of Burke’s room there making . . .
PR: . . .so I made a couple with her. Um. . .
TT: Okay. During the time that John was gone, was that when you were wrapping the gifts and trying to get all the suitcases packed . . .
PR: Stuff ready, right, uh huh.
TT: . . .and stuff ready to go. Okay. And you wrapped the gifts downstairs?
TT: Okay. About how many gifts were you wrapping that day to get ready to go?
PR: Oh, I don’t know. A couple of shopping bags full..
TT: Okay. This is for John Andrew and Melinda. . .
PR: And Melinda and Stewart. Melinda’s boyfriend was going to be up there too.
TT: Okay. Where were you packing the suitcases there?
PR: Um, the suitcases for the cruise I think I was packing in John Andrew’s room which is that room up on the same area as JonBenet’s room.
TT: Um hum.
PR: With the black bedspread on it.
TT: Okay. That’s John Andrew’s room?
PR: We refer to it as his room.
TT: Um hum.
PR: Um, the guest room, whatever. Um, I had two or three black suitcases in there and I think I had my suitcase up in my dressing room. . .
PR: . . .packing.
TT: And were you packing suitcases for the trip to the lake separately or was that all together?
PR: No, it’s not together.
PR: Those were two separate trips. The lake I think I was just packing a plastic bag.
PR: Because we have clothes up at the lake and uh, just taking a few. . .
TT: Okay, where, was, where were you packing the plastic bag at?
PR: Um, if I remember right, I think it was uh, in the laundry room area, right outside JonBenet’s room.
TT: Okay. About what time did you guys end up heading towards the White’s house that night?
PR: Oh, about dinner timeish, five or six or something like that.
TT: Okay. Say between. . .
PR: This is on the 25th right?
PR: Um hum.
TT: Say between three and six, by the time John gets home before you leave for the Whites, what kind of activities were you guys doing. What kind of, what was the family doing at that time?
PR: Um, I don’t remember. I just remember I was trying to get clothes ready for four people to go in two different places.
TT: Um hum.
PR: Uh, and the kids were playing then I, you know, got them dressed and then we, they were in play clothes and so we changed and got cleaned up to go over there.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And I think I colored my hair. I think I told you that.
TT: Um hum. So that was in the afternoon?
PR: And, and JonBenet, uh, you know, was getting cleaned up and. . .
TT: Okay. Did John help you get packed up at all?
PR: Uh, he, I believe, put some presents in the, in the Jeep.
TT: Okay. But he didn’t. . .
PR: Not the clothes.
TT: . . .pack his own clothes or anything like that?
PR: Oh, he probably would have packed his own clothes (inaudible) stuff.
TT: Okay. And do you know where he had that suitcase at that he packed his clothes at? Was that in the uh, John Andrew’s room?
PR: Um, no. It would, it would have been in his probably.
PR: I, I think I just had a couple of suitcase, the kids suitcases on the bed there, Burke’s and JonBenet’s.
TT: Okay. So you had Burke’s and JonBenet’s suitcases in John Andrew’s room, your suitcase was upstairs and John’s would have been upstairs too then.
PR: The best that I can remember, yeah.
TT: Okay. Right. You left, left for the Whites about five, 6:00, um, family of the Whites over there. Any other friends that weren’t related to the Whites or, or your family. Any other people over there at the White’s house that night?
PR: Uh, I don’t recall.
TT: Okay. So everybody’s, everybody’s pretty much related to the Whites.
TT: Was this kind of a spur of the moment or was it planned to go to the White’s house that night?
PR: It was planned to go there.
PR: We had gone there last year, Christmas dinner.
TT: Okay. So it was kind of a, a yearly event then. Everybody was (Inaudible). . .
PR: Well now it was, second time if you call that. . .
TT: Starting to (inaudible).
PR: . . .saying to become yearly.
TT: Okay. Who all did you let know that you were going over to the Whites? Did you let the Barnhills know or anybody like that?
PR: Uh, I don’t remember. I think I, seems like I did call Betty that day to see if they had anybody over there with them or, you know, if they were okay or. . .
PR: . . .and I may have told her that we were going. I don’t remember exactly.
TT: Check to see if anybody had come over to visit the Barnhills.
PR: Yeah. I just wanted to make sure they had something to eat and all that cause. . .
TT Okay. About what part, what part of the day did you call Betty to make sure she’s okay?
PR: Um, sometime that afternoon.
TT: Okay. Okay. What did, what did you do at the White’s house that night?
PR: We um, had dinner. I called Fleet’s mother, Fleet called his mother and I talked to her. She was ill. She was usually there, because Christmas is her big, she likes Christmas.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And um, she was ill and I talked to her for quite some time.
TT: Okay. Where does she live at?
PR: She, there from California, but they have a residence in Aspen.
PR: And she was in Aspen.
TT: Okay. So give me kind of a step by step, get to the Whites 5:30, 6:00, 6:30 whatever, what time did you have dinner that night? What did you do before dinner after dinner?
PR: Well, we had um, I think we had cocktails, kind of, she had some cracked crab left over from their Christmas even dinner and we sampled some of that and I remember she kind of, for some reason, made a little plate for JonBenet or I remember her making a special plate for JonBenet for some reason so she would have some crab. . .
PR: . . .cause my kids like seafood and uh, we nibble on that and I uh, we had dinner and I can’t remember what we had.
TT: Okay. Was it like a buffet, sit down, what kind of dinner was it?
PR: I just, I just, I don’t know. I can’t remember.
TT: Okay. Was it a formal plates around the table type. . .
PR: Well, we had, she usually puts up several tables in her living room. She had several tables in her living room, in her dining room. Just were, thee were a lot of us there and uh, we sat at the table, you know, she had a place for everybody.
PR: And uh, she had little gifts for the kids. They had these little paper jewelry things that JonBenet and Daphne got and um. Fleet and John were down on the floor helping them make those.
PR: Jewelry things.
TT: Okay. About how long did you stay at the White’s house?
PR: Oh, several hours, you know, I, something like 9:00 or so, eight.
PR: Eight or nine. We had to get up early so we didn’t. . .
TT: Stay out too late?
PR: . . .stay really late.
TT: Okay. So, other than the dinner with the little gifts, any other social activities go on that night, caroling or just socializing? What else happened?
PR: Uh, I think some carolers came. Some neighbors came to the door caroling and Fleet, big Fleet and little Fleet, I think went out with them for a little bit. Um, maybe Daphne went with them.
PR: Maybe, I don’t know. I think some of them went out and sang a little bit with them and . . .
PR: . . .came back in.
TT: JonBenet and Burke go out with them to carol?
PR: I just can’t remember.
TT: Okay. Got home about 8:30, 9:00. What’s the fist thing you guy do when you got home that night? Actually, let me step back. Before you got home you went over to . . .
PR: Walkers and dropped of a little gift.
PR: And Stines and dropped off a little gift and drove home and JonBenet was asleep. She had fallen asleep in the car.
TT: Did you have to wake her up to get her inside or. . .
PR: Well, she was just really zonked and John carried her up to her room.
PR: And I uh, you know, ran up behind him and, or in front of him, I can’t remember. Maybe, or it might have been in front of him to turn the bed down.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And he laid her down and I got her undressed and put her, I left her shirt on her and uh, went in the bathroom and tried to find some pajama pants and all I could find was some, like long underwear pants. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .and put those on.
TT: What color of top did she wear to bed that night? What color top was she ww3earing actually to the White’s house like?
PR: Well she wore this little outfit that I had gotten her at the Gap. We had a little, little riff over that, cause I wanted her to wear, I was wearing a red sweater and I wanted her to wear this red sweater with her black velvet pant, cause I was wearing black velvet paths and it was Christmas and all that.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And she didn’t want to wear the red shirt just because I was wearing it. She wanted to wear the shirt that went with the outfit which was a Gap outfit that I had bought her when we went shopping for her and it was a little white, kind of neck like this, kind of a . . .
TT: Kind of a crew neck?
PR: . . .crew neck and it had a little, little rhinestone, little kind of sequin kind of star thing on it.
PR: So I just left that on her.
TT: Okay. And I’m sorry. What kind of pants, what color of pants. . .
PR: They were black velvet. Black velvet jeans, kind of like, from the Gap. Some little black velvet vest.
TT: And what were you wearing Patsy, a, a red turtleneck and black. . .
PR: Velvet jeans, yeah.
PR: Velvet pants. And I have a Christmas sweater I was wearing.
TT: And what color was that?
PR: Red with all kinds of . . .
TT: And that was over the turtleneck.
TT: Okay. Okay. What did, what did Burke wear over to the White’s house that day?
PR: Oh, I don’t remember. I don’t remember.
TT: Okay. What about John? Remember having any idea what he wore that day?
PR: Um um. Unless I try to match us up I can’t remember.
TT: Okay. Formal, informal?
PR: Oh, it was casual yeah.
TT: Okay. Jeans type thing?
PR: Oh. . .
PR: . . .no, no, I think it probably, I would have him probably him a khakis or something a little cleaned up.
TT: Okay. What did JonBenet wear on the night of the 25th with her little outfit as wear as, as far as shoes go, her footwear?
PR: Probably the, I don’t remember exactly, but she had these little black boots with zip up front that kind of went with that outfit. That’s what she normally wore with that, so I think she probably wore those, but I can’t remember exactly.
TT: When you say you wore black velvet jeans were those like a, a, were they a jean material like a 501?
PR: No they’re, no, no, no. They’re black velvet.
PR: But they’re not dress pants they’re. . .
TT: Did you wear uh, uh, flats or, or . . .
PR: Shoes you mean?
TT: . . .boots, or, what did. . .
PR: Oh yeah.
TT: . . .you have for footwear.
PR: Uh, I don’t remember. I don’t remember exactly.
PR: Black something probably.
TT: Black something?
TT: To go with the black belt?
TT: So John carries JonBenet upstairs, puts her to bed. You pull up the bed sheets. You find this top for her to wear or you just. . .
PR: We just left her top on her.
TT: . . .you leave the top on. . .
TT: . . .uh, find a pair of. . .
TT: . . .bottoms for her to wear. Um, did she wake up at all during this?
TT: Stayed pretty crashed out?
PR: Uh huh.
TT: Okay. Sounds asleep the whole time then.
PR: Um hum.
TT: Okay. Sound asleep the whole time then?
PR: Um hum.
TT: Okay. What did Burke do? Did he fall asleep on the way home also?
PR: He didn’t. I think he was, he’s still wanting to play.
TT: Okay. What did Burke do when you got home then.
PR: Um, I don’t remember exactly, but I think he went to go play with something. I think maybe he and John were fussing with something. A toy he wanted to put together or something.
PR: I was trying to finish putting together things for in the morning and. . .
TT: Okay. Finish kind of packing, again the suitcases on the bed. Were they all finished, packed up?
PR: Um, probably pretty close to it.
TT: Okay. And then the close to go to Charlevoix those were. . .
TT: . . .in a plastic bag.
PR: Plastic bag. Um hum.
TT: And they were already to go? You said you carried down to (inaudible).
TT: Okay. Burke and John go downstairs to play?
PR: No, I don’t really, don’t remember where they were. I was, after I got her ready for bed I just kind of ran about doing my last minute things and. . .
TT: Okay., What kind of last minute things did you have to take care of?
PR: Well just, you know, presents. I mean, I put some presents by the back door and I don’t remember exactly, just things to go to the lake or, and so we’re doing a couple of, you know, getting things ready cause we were leaving so early in the morning. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .getting things kind of laid out ready to go and that kind of thing.
TT: Okay. Do you have clothes laid out for JonBenet to wear in the morning? Did you lay her clothes out?
PR: Uh, I don’t remember laying them out, no.
TT: Okay. What about Burke? Same thing with him. Did you lay his clothes out or anything for the morning?
PR: I don’t remember dong that.
TT: About what time did you head up to bed that night?
PR: Um, probably around 9:30, 10:00 something like that.
TT: Okay. Um, did you guys try to wake up JonBenet at all or did she. . .
PR: She was zonked.
TT: Sound asleep. Didn’t wake up at all?
PR: Um hum.
TT: Was she awake at all when you were over at the Stine’s house?
PR: Uh, well, I just went to the door. We didn’t all go in. I just went to the door. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .and gave them a basket of something. . .
PR: . . .for a Christmas present or something. We were going, I remember, cause I had a big basket in the car to take to the Fernies, but since JonBenet had fallen asleep and it was getting kind of late. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .I think we just decided not to go to the Fernies.
TT: Okay. I think we need to change tapes as well. Let’s just take 30 seconds here real quick.
(End of Tape 1, Side B)
(Begin Tape 2, Side A)
ST: You all set Jon? Okay, Tom. I’m sorry.
??: (Inaudible) set the tape.
ST: Yeah and uh, just for the transcriptionist, this is Tape 2, Side 1.
TT: Patsy, do you have any idea what time uh, Burke went to bed that night then? (Inaudible) him and John playing someplace?
PR: Yeah, they, yeah, I don’t know exactly.
TT: Okay. What time did John go to bed that night? Do you remember hearing him come upstairs at all.
PR: Yeah. I remember him coming to bed. I don’t know what time it was. It was shortly after I came to bed.
TT: Okay. That night were you able to sit up and read after you kind of took care of things. Get things ready in the morning. Go up to your room. Do you have any time to read at all that night?
PR: I don’t, I’m sure I had time to read, but I don’t know. . .
PR: . . .whether I did or not.
PR: I think I, I think I just, you know, pretty much went to sleep. I can’t, I just can’t remember.
PR: I know I was reading a book. I was working on a book, but I don’t think I. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .remember if I read that night or not. I don’t know.
TT: So you go upstairs, jump into pajamas go into bed. Did you have to take off your makeup, take off your jewelry. What’s that whole sequence?
TT: I don’t wear a lot of makeup, so it’s hard for me to know how often you have to do that.
PR: Oh, I probably washed my face, brushed my teeth.
TT: Okay. What’s your normal get ready for bed routine I guess is what I’m asking?
PR: Um, take my makeup off. Brush my teeth.
TT: Okay. Take all your jewelry off then.
PR: No, I don’t take them off.
PR: Sometime, I mean, it depends on what I have on, sometimes I take it off, sometimes I don’t, but . . .
TT: Okay. JonBenet, she had some jewelry on. Does she normally sleep in her jewelry in her jewelry too. She had a little necklace. . .
PR: Um hum.
TT: . . .and a bracelet and stuff . . .
PR: Um hum.
TT: …and the necklace, I believe, she got from Paulette?
PR: For Christmas.
TT: Okay. (Inaudible)
PR: I had given her the bracelet the night of our Christmas party.
TT: Back on the 23rd?
PR: Um hum.
TT: Okay. She didn’t over the last day didn’t, hadn’t taken that off at all then?
PR: I’m not, I don’t believe so.
TT: Okay. And what about the, the rings that she wears? (Inaudible)
PR: She had on a little gold ring that my mother had given her.
TT: That Nedra had given her.
PR: Um hum.
TT: Did she normally wear that al the time too?
PR: Um hum.
TT: So, you got upstairs, take your makeup off, jump into bed. John comes in shortly after that? Um, do you hear Burke go to bed at all? Do you hear him playing Nintendo, watching TV or anything like that?
PR: I just don’t remember.
TT: Okay. Anything else, before everybody goes to bed for the night that you can remember happen, hearing any noises, anything like that in the house?
PR: No, I don’t remember any.
TT: Okay. And let me back you up just a little bit. Do you guys ever use the alarm system I that house at all?
PR: No, we didn’t use it in years.
TT: Okay. Do you remember about when the last time you used the alarm system was?
PR: Well, I remember when JonBenet was probably two or three, it was, the house was still under construction. She was probably two.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And I didn’t even know the alarm system was activated yet, because we had had so many people in and out of there. She drug that little, this little bench we had back by the garage door, drug it over and I think she was trying to hit the garage door opener, but she hit, you know, boom, boom, boom on that . . .
TT: The keypad.
PR: . . .keypad and I mean it just, it’s an interior alarm. It’s got the speakers or whatever they are inside the house and it is just deafening. And uh, John, we ran back to the keypad, cause I had never really heard it go off and she was standing there, you know, like, and uh, I mean, I didn’t even know how to shut the dumb thing off cause I didn’t even know it was activated and pretty soon I, I was trying to call Safe Systems or whoever it was that I thought had been working on it and uh, I mean, you just couldn’t stay in the house it was so awful, so loud. And uh, I remember grabbing John’s cellular phone, because I couldn’t dial it inside the house it was too . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .loud and pretty soon I heard these sirens and apparently she had hit the button that, you know, don’t ask questions, just sent help.
TT: Um hum. So everybody came.
PR: Everybody came and, and, you know, they were saying well, you know, if this is your house why don’t you turn it off? And I was like we don’t know the code, you know, so that was the last, so we didn’t use it because of that, cause, cause like every time that we ever used the alarm system it would go off erratically and . . .
TT: Had problems with it? So it hasn’t, you hadn’t use it or it has it not been hooked up to an alarm company at all?
PR: I believe it was hooked up to a, um, I don’t know if you call it an alarm company or whatever, but for fire . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .but somehow I think that the smoke detectors were incorporated into that. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .and I think we did have it monitored, you know, for that purpose. . .
PR: . . .for the fire protection.
TT: And that’s it then? Okay. Patsy, let me take one step back. Um, you pulled the coverings on JonBenet’s bed. Nedra talked about that half of the house is real warm or something. . .
TT: . . .since you guys go the uh, remodel done?
PR: Yeah, right.
TT: What kind of covering, what are the bed sheets or blankets, what kind of covering does JonBenet normally have on her bed?
PR: Um, a fitted sheet . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .and a flat sheet and then a cotton blanket and then a bed spread.
TT: And is that what she had on the night of the 25th when she went to bed. When you pulled back all the sheets and stuff. Is that the uh, she had a couple of sheets, fitted sheets, flat sheets, this light blanket . . .
TT: . . .and then the heavy kind of quilted. . .
PR: Well, right, um hum. I usually turn the bed spread down.
TT: Um hum.
PR: (Inaudible) didn’t have that on her because it’s hot.
TT: She doesn’t use the bed spread, right?
TT: Okay. (Inaudible) follows with what Nedra was talking about.
PR: Yeah, it’s very warm in that part of the house.
TT: (Inaudible) Um, do you remember the type of sheets she had on her bed that night? The print of them. The characters of them?
PR: Well, now she had a lot of different sheets, I don’t know exactly.
TT: Okay. (Inaudible)
TT: Can you describe the blankets again is it, I take it a fairly light weight cotton blanket?
PR: Yeah, kind of a loose weave blanket.
TT: Okay. Okay. What I would like to do is show you a picture of a blanket, it’s got a scale and it’s a white blanket with what you describe as a loose weave and all that. It’s got a scale around the outside is all. Is this, does that kind of look like the blanket, there you go Pat, that was on her bed that night? And again, it’s uh, it’s folded up. Hard, kind of hard to see.
PR: Yeah. Yeah, it was probably, yeah.
TT: Does that look like the kind of blanket that was on her bed.
PR: Um hum.
TT: Or was that the blanket on her bed?
PR: I, it may have been, yeah. I can’t, I mean it sort of looks a little pinkish. It was . . .
TT: And, and that might be . . .
PR: It was white.
TT: . . .that might be the coloring of the picture.
TT: Uh, because the colors are not very good.
TT: It’s actually an all white blanket.
PR: Is it? Um hum.
TT: The colors are kind of deceiving on that.
PR: Yeah. It, it could have been.
TT: Okay. And um, is it a, she sleeps in a twin bed right?
TT: Is the blanket a twin bed blanket or is it oversized, um. . .
PR: Um, that was a twin.
TT: It was a twin size blanket also.
PR: Yeah, it was pretty generous twin.
PR: Well, it was pretty . . .
TT: It was bigger.
PR: Bigger, uh huh, yeah.
TT: Did it hang down (inaudible) to the floor on each side, but it went down the side of the bed quite a ways?
TT: Okay. Okay. And, uh, Nedra also talked about, and correct me if I’m wrong Steve, did you guys have a similar type of blanket up on your bed?
PR: Uh, I think so.
TT: Only and obviously different size.
PR: Yeah, I think we did.
TT: Okay. Alrighty.
PR: I think we did yeah.
TT: Steve, you want to, do you want to touch on the questions we have for the 25th and uh, (inaudible) stuff?
ST: Sure, just let me fill in some blanks if I can Patsy. On the night of the 25th after you came, and tot eh best of your recollection, I think you said it may have been 8:00 or 9:00, is that fair. Um, when you got home . . .
PR: Well it was, I don’t know exactly what time . . .
PB: Yeah, that, that was not fair.
ST: Okay. Uh, what time did you get home on the night of the 25th.
PB [sic]: I don’t know exactly, but it was, you know, it was nineish probably. I don’t I didn’t, not remember looking at my watch or anything.
PR: It was dark.
ST: But it was shortly thereafter uh, at some point, that uh, JonBenet was put to bed um, you and John went to bed uh, I noted that uh, I had a question. Who put Burke to bed or did he put himself to bed that night?
PR: Um, I don’t know. I did not put Burke to bed.
ST: Okay. Is it typical that, that he can go to bed on his own.
PR: Well, typically one of the two of us put, put them to bed so, I, I think John was playing something with him. One of this Christmas things and he, very likely, put him to bed.
PR: I did not so I don’t know.
ST: But John, and you to an extent, but JonBenet to bed, uh, by carrying her to bed because she was asleep or out.
PR: She was sound asleep.
PR: He carried her and put her in bed and I got her, you know, pulled off everything and put her, I left the shirt on and put the pants on.
ST: And remind me, what shirt did she go to bed in? Was that the same shirt that she wore to the Whites that night?
ST: The red, uh . . .
PR: no it was white.
ST: Okay. And then those little white sort of thermal bottoms?
ST: is that right? And what was your goodnight routine with JonBenet in her room on the night of the 25th? Did, John was getting her down. Did you simply peak your head in or how long were you in the room with John.
PR: Oh, he just walked in and laid her in the bed and then I, I, he left . . .
ST: You took it from there?
ST: And that consisted of simply getting her under the covers.
PR: Well, I changed her and took the black velvet pants off and found those, those long underwear pants and put on her.
ST: Okay. Turned off the light?
PR: Uh, the light in her bedroom was not on. I believe that bathroom light, we usually left the bathroom light on.
ST: As a nightlight?
PR: Or a nightlight. She had a little lamp in there. We either left that on or the bathroom light on in her room.
ST: Okay. Um, do you recall that night leaving a nightlight on for her?
PR: I mean, I just can’t remember exactly, but very likely I did.
ST: Do you know uh, when you left the room, John had laid her down and then you changed her into some different clothing, put her under the covers or put her into bed to sleep for the night?
ST: Do you remember how you left the door into her room when you left the room? Did you leave that open or closed or cracked?
PR: I usually leave it cracked a little bit.
ST: Okay. And is that your recollection on that night?
PR: Um hum.
ST: Okay. And then retrace your step for me, then did you go up and go to bed?
PR: I don’t think I immediately did. I, I uh, you know brushed my teeth and got ready for bed and I think, I think I got, a coup, you know, some presents ready to go and just kind of a couple of things. Yeah, I’m sure I was getting ready to leave early the next morning?
ST: Did you change out of the clothes or the pajamas or whatever you wear to bed during your nighttime routine, brushing your teeth . . .
ST: . . .and washing your face?
PR: Um hum.
ST: Um, did you ever go back and check on JonBenet again after you pout her down and turned out the light and closed the door, um, that time?
PR: I don’t believe I did.
ST: Did John ever go back in?
PR: I don’t, I don’t know.
ST: Okay. Um, it was how long after you put JonBenet to bed, did you then retire into bed for the evening?
PR: I don’t know exactly. Maybe half hour I think, I don’t, I can’t remember exactly.
ST: And it was shortly after you went to bed that John then came to bed?
ST: And during that half hour, 45 minutes, after you put JonBenet to bed, and that you were still up, uh, arranging presents, brushing your teeth, you don’t know uh, whether or not John went back into JonBenet’s bedroom?
PR: Um, no.
ST: Would it have been unlikely for him to have gone back in and awakened her for any reason?
PR: Oh, yeah. It would have been unlikely.
ST: Okay. Can you give me, to the best of your memory, if you got home at nineish, was it shortly after coming home at nineish that you put JonBenet into bed? That John carried her, or John carried her up and put her to bed.
PR: Yeah it was, I mean, he carried her from the car to her bed.
ST: So, were you in bed then, and I don’t want to put words in your mouth, by ten or 10:30 or what time, if you can reconstruct that, did you then go to bed?
PR: I was probably, probably in bed by then. Ten or 10:30
ST: Okay. And when you say. . .
PR: I can’t remember exactly.
ST: . . .John came to bed shortly thereafter, do you recall if that was 15 minutes or a half an hour?
PR: It was probably just a few minutes.
ST: Okay. You were still awake?
PR: I was, yeah, I could, was aware of him, you know, getting in bed, but . . .
ST: And are you a sound sleeper?
ST; And prior to December 25th were you on any sort of sleeping medications?
ST: Any medications whatsoever? Other than vitamins or over the co8unter?
ST: Is John a fairly heavy sleeper?
PR: Yes, I would say, he snores (inaudible).
ST: When John gets up during the night on occasion is he does to use the bathroom, for example, does that awaken you? Are you aware of when John leaves the bed.
PR: Um hum, usually.
ST: And is John aware when you leave the bed?
PR: I don’t know if he’s aware when I leave or not?
ST: Okay. So on the night of the 25th at some point, Burke went to bed, it’s possible or likely that John checked on him and made sure that he was down . .
PR: Um hum.
ST: . . .but, John had put JonBenet into her bed and she never awakened the whole time from the car to bed that night.
PR: Not that I real no.
ST: Did that concern you at all or was that common with a, a six-year-old baby?
PR: She just, she was really zonked.
ST: A long Christmas day. She had been up early opening gifts.
PR: Yeah (inaudible).
ST: When you awaken the next morning, uh, do you recall what you or John wore the following morning when you got up?
PR: You mean what did I put on in the morning?
ST: Um hum.
PR: Uh, I think I pout on the same black velvet pants and the red turtleneck sweater. I don’t know what John had on.
ST: And on the night before, on the night of the 25th, the black velvet pants and the red sweater, you don’t recall what your footwear was?
PR: I think, um, no, I can’t remember exactly. I usually wear these little black kind of little boots with it, bit I don’t know if wore them that, I don’t remember what I wore that night.
ST: Do you remember on the night of the 25th, when you and John came home, what the lockup procedure, the security procedure for the house that night was?
PR: No, I don’t.
ST: Concerning keys to the house Patsy uh, and access to the house, outside of John Andrew being in Boulder, were there another keys outstanding other than John Andrew’s and the Barnhills?
PR: Uh, my dad had a key. Um . . .
ST: Had that been accounted for?
PR: Has that been accounted for?
ST: Does Don Paugh still have that key.
PR: I don’t know. Um. . .
ST: Had anybody asked Don Paugh if he still has that key.
PR: (Coughing, response unknown) Excuse me. Uh, my cleaning lady had a key, Linda. The Barnhills I believe actually gave two keys, because I had given her one and she couldn’t find it. I think I gave them another one? Uh, Barbara Fernie had one at one time, I’m not sure. I think I might have gotten that back from her. Pricilla had one I believe. Uh . . .
ST: Does Pricilla still have that key?
PR: I don’t know. I can’t remember. It seems like I gave it to her before we went to the lake, because she was going to have a lot of house guest and I thought if she wanted to, you know, use the house for any reason she could have the key.
ST: What is the status of the key or keys that you gave the Barnhills?
PR: The status right now?
ST: Yeah. Have you gotten those back?
PR: I haven’t, no, I don’t know where they are. I don’t know what the status is of those?
ST: Would it be inaccurate if the Barnhills were saying that they returned the key to you? Could that be possible?
PR: Um, it could be possible I guess. I don’t remember, and I think, I think I gave it to them and the intent was if I got, anybody got locked out of the house they would have a key. So I don’t, I mean, it wasn’t like, you know, keep this for two days and then give it back to me or something, you know.
ST: And as some point we’ll come, uh, uh, Tom has some questions for you about when John had to break in that basement window . . .
ST: . . .but was there any reason you couldn’t or John could not have retrieve the key from the Barnhills at that time to get in rather than breaking the window?
PR: He, he may not have know they had a key.
ST: Do you recall on December 24th into the morning of December 25th, whether or not JonBenet slept in her bed or over in Burkes room?
PR: I, I just don’t remember exactly, but it seems like she was in her bed, but I don’t remember exactly.
ST: How about on the, uh, night of the 25th when you and John put her to bed, would it have been unlikely for her to have then moved to another location in the house to have slept, your bed or Burke’s room?
PR: Yeah, it would have been unlikely.
PR: The reason I can’t remember whether they, where she slept on the 24th were, not cause it seemed like they were conspiring about what time they were going to get up in the morning and I can’t remember whether they, it seems like there, that she did, they did talk about her sleeping in his room, but I can’t remember whether that really happened or not, but I remember they were conspiring about what time to get up and . . .
ST: On the night of the 25th after John put JonBenet into her bed, she’s zonked out sound asleep, did not awaken, um, you got her changed um, may have left the nightlight on, may have left the door cracked uh, you don’t know what John did for the 30 minutes or an hour that he remained up in the house prior to coming to bed. I that right?
PR: Well, he was, I remember he was, was with Burke playing with something. I don’t know what they were playing with, but . . .
ST: But he never mentioned to you that he re-awakened JonBenet for any reason.
ST: Take her to the bathroom so she didn’t wet or anything like that?
ST: Did any else, you, John or Burke have any ill effects uh, after eating dinner at the Whites in coming home? Any feelings of intoxication or drowsiness?
PR: I, I remember just being really tired. I don’t know that I was drowsy, but you know, it had been a big day. I was tired and I was anxious to get to bed.
ST: Patsy, in some ways I, I know more about your family than I know about my own, but uh, to the best of my knowledge and what everybody tells me neither you nor John are drinkers, your social drinkers as best. Did you have anything to drink on the night of the 25th at the Whites? A glass of wine.
PR: We may have had a glass of wine. I know John is very cautious about, I mean, knowing that he is going to fly the next, you know, does not, uh, you know, drink a lot.
ST: So certainly neither of you . . .
PR: I mean we may have had, and I’m very, I don’t drink a lot because my chemo did a number on my liver so I, I don’t, we just don’t drink a lot.
ST: So I’m assuming neither you nor John was intoxicated . . .
ST: . . .by any means that night.
PR: No, no, no.
ST: On the way home from the Whites, you made two stops you told me. Where there any issues or anything that come back to mind in hindsight uh, about any concerns or were these friendly social stops?
PR: Yeah, I just had a little bottle of perfume I gave to Roxie and, Roxie Walker, and that basket of uh, you know, goodies kind of stuff I dropped off at the Stines.
ST: As is so often the case in this case you hear so many things that you try to attribute back to a source that’s sometimes, but prior to the 25th was there any persons that came to your home unsolicited uh, that were invited in, not guests on the 23rd to the Christmas party, but in particular uh, wee there any women who asked to view or tour the home . . .
PR: Oh, yeah there, uh two older ladies, now I don’t know what day this was, but two older ladies stopped by. They were talking and uh, I, I think I was out, I don’t know why I was outside, but they stopped and I can’t remember why I invited them in. I think one, one of them said that she had been there on the home tour when the, when the Christmas home tour a couple of years before and I said something about I had the Christmas trees up or something and would you like to come in and they came in. Two, two ladies, old ladies.
ST: Uh, when you say older can you approximate an age for me?
PR: Sixty, seventy.
ST: Did they impress you as if they were neighborhood residents out walking?
PR: Yeah, I think they said they lived over on the other side of Baseline or one of them did or . . .
ST: And were they fairly innocuous and harmless in your estimation.
PR: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah.
ST: Did you give them a tour of the home?
PR: Yeah, I think I did.
ST: Do you recall, do you recall that tour and, and uh, was that a five cent tour or a two hour shot?
PR: Oh, it wasn’t very long no. They weren’t there very long.
ST: Was that uh . . .
PR: I don’t even remember what day it was. It was, I mean, it was sometime around that time.
ST: Okay. Um, a few day before, a week before, sometime in December prior to Christmas?
PR: Yeah, I mean, I had the Christmas stuff up, you know.
ST: Do you feel that bears any further investigation?
PR: Those, you mean those, those two ladies?
ST: Yes ma’am.
PR: I, no I don’t think so. I mean they were just little old ladies. (Inaudible)
ST: Often times, according to Nedra and Pam and Paulie, uh, JonBenet fall asleep with a video in . . .
PR: Um hum.
ST: . . .um, and that would play until I guess it uh, exhausted itself . . .
PR: Um hum.
ST: . . .and somebody would turn it off, but on the night of the 25th uh, was that the case.
ST: No video? Uh, do you normally sleep with any radio or television on upstairs in the converted attic?
PR: Uh sometimes John will put on a CD or something.
ST: Did you fall asleep to . . .
PR: You kind of fall asleep and then it clicks off or something.
ST: Was that the case on the night of the 25th.
PR: I don’t remember.
ST: Do you know which bed that Burke normally slept in, in his room. Was it the . . .
PR: First one in, the . . .
PR: Right as you go in the door.
ST: And if, on occasion, JonBenet would go sleep in Burke’s room would she get into the other bed.
PR: She’d be in, yeah.
ST: Okay. Um, what would cause that? That she got scared at night or . . .
PR: No, just, I mean, that happened very seldom and uh, I think, oh, I think one time when I reading to Burke and, she and Burke in Burke’s room and she feel asleep in that bed so I just let her sleep there or something, but I didn’t, you know, usually I’d get her back in her bed cause she would, occasionally wet the bed and her bed had a plastic wrap on it and that one didn’t so I . . .
ST: Move her to the other bed.
PR: Right, uh, huh.
ST: Was it common for her to uh, get up during the night at all, either to uh, use the bathroom or to go downstairs or uh, was she a, a fairly good sleeper that would sleep the night through.
PR: She, she was a fairly good sleeper. She um, very rarely, you know, would wake up at night. If she did she would, you know, sometimes she would have wet the bed and she would get up and get in that other bed or she, sometimes would come up to our bed, but it was not very often.
ST: On the way home from the Whites when you made the two social stops uh, you didn’t go in and eat or drink or anything. Were these limited stoops?
PR: Yeah, they were just, you know.
ST: Is the last thing that JonBenet had to eat on the night of the 25th, would that have been at the Whites.
PR: Um hum.
ST: Did JonBenet normally sleep in addition to her jewelry with any hair ties in her hair.
PR: Usually, uh, a rubberband.
ST: Pulled back into a single ponytail.
PR: Back, ponytail, yeah.
ST: When JonBenet would undress, uh, either pajamas or out of her normal clothes, uh, what would she do with those clothes? Would they be discarded on the floor where they hit . . .
PR: Um hum.
ST: . . .or go to a hamper? Just hit the floor.
PR: (Inaudible) hit the floor.
ST: Okay. You did not read to any nighttime story to JonBenet on the 25th nor did John, is that right if she was asleep.
ST: And which bed in her room did you put her into on the night of the 25th?
PR: The, the first one as you walk in the door.
ST: The most northern or next to her little dresser uh, um . . .
PR: Not against the window . . .
ST: . . .(Inaudible) okay.
PR: . . .the one closest to the door. I don’t remember what direction that is.
TT: The one closest to the door.
ST: You’re like my wife. She doesn’t know. She says right or left.
PR: I know the mountains are west. That’s all I know.
ST: When you retired for bed you slept through the night without getting up, or let me say it this way. You slept through the night uninterrupted until you awakened and got out of bed the next morning. Is that right?
ST: And we’ll certainly ask John, but as far as you know was that the case with him as well?
PR: Um hum.
ST: When John came to bed did he have a light on and, I don’t know if he’s a bed reader like I am, but did he have a light on and read at all that night?
PR: I think he did. I, he has um, I usually leave his light on, on his side before he comes to bed and then he turns if off when he goes to bed. I think he did read awhile that night.
ST: Patsy, let me ask you a question. Uh, and this is hypothetical, but were JonBenet to have been awakened by a stranger intruder, is it your belief as her mother that she would have been more paralyzed by fear or would she have fought and kicked and screamed and yelled.
PR: I, you know, I just, I, I can’t answer that. I don’t know what . . .
ST: Nedra suggested tome that when she might take her to the bathroom at night to prevent a bedwetting occurrence that sometimes she would get an elbow or, you know, a lot of this. Um, is, is that . . .
PR: Well, she didn’t like to be awakened . . .
ST: . . .consistent . . .
PR: . . .if that’s what you mean. She, she was a pretty sound sleeper.
ST: Did you hear anything out of the ordinary at all on the night of December 25th into the morning of the, December 26th?
PR: Hum um.
ST: Was the house secured to the best of your knowledge? Were doors locked and windows locked when you guys went to bed that night and awakened the next morning?
PT [sic]: I did not check the doors or windows that night.
ST: Have you had a chance Patsy to review the police reports that were provided to you.
PR: Uh, I know that, I think we got them, but I don’t, I didn’t read them (inaudible)
ST: Okay. So you haven’t had to, a chance to review those?
ST: So at this point you wouldn’t be able to tell me whether or not you agree with the factual content on those officers who made those reports?
PR: I guess if you have it I could read it and then tell if I agree.
ST: Were you going to finish the Charlevoix packing the morning of the 26th when you got up?
PR: Uh, yeah, I mean, throw in toothbrushes and last minute kind of stuff, you know. Uh . . .
ST: And were the . . .
PR: . . .stuff in the car, you know, packages.
ST: And I came into this investigation a couple of days after the fact um, and I did not spend a great deal of time in the 15th Street home um, but what suitcases specifically were going on the Charlevoix Disney trip. Were they the suitcases that were on the bed in John Andrew’s room.
PR: No, we were suppose to come back from the lake before we went to Disney boat trip. So I just had a few little things in a plastic bag as I recall that I was going to take to the lake cause we were only going to be there, I don’t know, a couple of days or something. And then I was coming back and then the suitcases were packed to go. We were coming back to here and then going from Denver to Florida so. Now what was your question?
ST: Were the suitcases, were going to leave the 15th Street home and go to Charlevoix I’m assuming . . .
PR: I don’t . . .
ST: . . .and stop me if I’m wrong . . .
PR: . . .know if any suitcases were going just this, I had a plastic bag and some shopping bag and some shopping bags with presents and stuff. I mean, we were flying our own plane, so we don’t rally, you know, pack real, you can just kind of throw stuff in there, you know.
ST: And did those, did that packing include clothing or do you have clothes at Charlevoix.
PR: Well, I think it included some clothes, because most of the clothes up there are summer shorts and T-shirts and stuff like that, but, you know, but it wasn’t a lot and the suitcases wee packed to go to Florida. So, I didn’t have any, I wasn’t going to take, I don’t think I was going to take a suitcase to Charlevoix.
ST: And was everybody on this same page about going to Charlevoix as far as uh, willing and wanting to go. There was no dissention in the ranks that, I don’t want to go or she doesn’t want to go. Everybody was looking forward to this trip?
PR: Well, I mean, we were. I wasn’t real crazy about going cause I just thought it was cramming a lot of stuff in there, you know, I told John I didn’t really want to go. I’d rather, cause, Christmas, going to Charlevoix, then going to, it just seemed like a lot, you know, but then we decided as a family to go and, you know, been looking forward to it. We never had Christmas up there before so I called the florist and had them put up lights and a wreath and flowers and all that cause Melinda and Stewart were coming up and John Andrew.
ST: How did the kid feel about, I mean, Christmas is the 25th, they just get all the presents, get everything opened up, get to playing and all of a sudden the 26th they’re, they got to take off to Charlevoix. How do . . .
PR: Oh, the little kids?
ST: Yeah, how did they feel about that?
PR: Oh, they, they would have loved it. They love theta cause they have toys up there, you know, they love it up there.
ST: Let me ask you one more question and then Tom if we can take a five minute break and let everyone use the restroom, um, Patsy, have you had any suspicions or concerns about any involvement in this on the part of Fleet White.
PR: Well, yes I, I have, um, and only because of some erratic behavior that, that they exhibited um shortly after uh, you know, we found JonBenet. Uh, I mean, there, there were a couple, two, three incidents and I know everyone was traumatized incredibly that morning, but they just acted differently than any of our other friends, you know, uh and it, it, you know, I mean, God, you know, I hate to, I, I hate to think, let myself think that, because those are, they’re friends of ours and uh, but they just acted strangely, you know.
ST: And certainly hard to gauge somebody after an event such as this as to whether the behavior is natural or unnatural.
ST: Certainly I’m no psychiatrist, but was there ever any, what we call, pre-offense behavior. Was there anything that you ever thought was just wrong prior to Christmas in Fleet’s behavior uh, concerning the kids.
PR: No, I mean, he was a very loving father, I mean, um, we called him Mr. Mom, because he was not, you know, working. I mean he was, I guess, doing some, a little bit of stuff still in California, but basically he was available all the time and took the kids, you know, I felt perfectly comfortable with him having our children and we had their children, you know and everything and they vacationed with us and everything. It just, it just subsequent to that it just, um . . .
ST: And I’m very familiar with what happened at your mom’s on the . . .
ST: . . .that was the 31st or the 1st of January . . .
PR: I don’t know.
ST: And those issues.
PR: Those days kind of run together. I don’t know what those days were.
ST: I’ll tell you, what with that, unless Tom has anything, uh, why don’t we take ten minutes and refresh ourselves and, and get started and just for the purpose of the tape, at 11:30 a.m. we’re going to take a break.
(End of Tape 2, Side A)
(Begin Tape 2, Side B)
ST: And for the purpose of the tape, we’re back on at five minutes till noon.
TT: Patsy, let’s go ahead and um, start out on December 26th when you first woke up in the morning . . .
PR: Um hum.
TT: . . .and again as you (inaudible) on the 25th, kind of give us a, almost a play by play, minute by minute, what did you do when you got out of bed? Where was John at? That sort of thing. All the way through the morning to the afternoon. Let’s kind of take it, we’ll take it in little chunks.
PR: Okay. Um, we got up at about 5:30, I think. I think John got up first and I got up just right behind him and he went to his bathroom and shower. I went to my bathroom. I did not shower that morning and I just put my clothes on and uh, did my hair and makeup and uh and then I started down the stairs, John was still in the bathroom and went uh, I stopped kind of briefly there in the laundry room area um, and I remember the ironing board was up I think and I fussed around with this little red jumpsuit of JonBenet’s cause it had, had some spots on it and I was going to remember to do something with that when I got back and uh, so I had, I had the light on in there in the laundry room area and uh, um then I started down the spiral staircase there. I came, I had come back down, I’d come down the back bedroom stairs there. . .
PR: . . .from my bathroom. Um, I started down the spiral stairs and when I got nearly to the bottom I saw these three pieces of paper, like notebook size paper, on, on the run of the stairs and uh, I went on down and turned around and started reading, reading it. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: And uh, I, I remember reading the first couple of lines and I kind of, didn’t know what it was or uh, and then I (inaudible) you know after the first couple of lines I, it dawned on me, it said something about, ‘We have your daughter’ or something . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: And I uh, I ran back upstairs and pushed open the door to her room and she wasn’t in her bed.
PR: And I uh, screamed for John. He was up in our bedroom still and he came running down and uh, I told him that there was a note that said she had been kidnapped. And uh, uh, I think he, he said, I said, ‘What should I do. What should I do,’ or something and he said, ‘Call the police,’ and I think somewhere, I remember I said something about, you know, check Burke or something and I think he ran back and checked burke and I ran back down the stairs and then he came downstairs. He was just in his underwear and he uh, took the note and I remember him being down hunched on the floor read, with all three pages out like that reading it and uh, and he said, ‘Call 911’ or ‘Call the police,’ or something and then I did. I called them and uh, and then I called the Whites and the Fernies and told them that she had been kidnapped or said come over quickly or something and they came over and the policeman came and uh, then the Whites and the Fernies were there and uh . . .Oh, I think the policeman was asking, you know, he kind of like, I think he kind of got us (inaudible) in the sun room or something.
PR: That little room, patio room. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .off the living room and trying to calm us down or something and uh, I think, I think John uh, by that time read and, that they wanted money or something and, and uh, he, I think he had called uh, Rod Westmoreland, our friend and our stock broker in Atlanta.
TT: Um hum.
PR: To see about getting that money together and uh, and I think two other, two ladies came that were social workers or something, came and uh, Linda Arndt came and some more policemen. Uh, and, oh, there uh, something in the note about they were going to call. I think it said they were going to call sometime in the morning. And Linda Arndt and some of the policemen were, they were going to set up uh, tape recording or something up in the TV room, phone back there. And they were, I think they were busy doing that and Father Rol came over and uh, praying that she would be all right and uh, uh I think initially right away we, we thought that um the cleaning lady was somehow was, you know, John mentioned that I had told him about that she had called and wanted that money and all that . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .and uh, I think I kind of looked at the writing and thought maybe it might have looked a little like hers or some, I don’t know, but I think they were rushing around and trying to find out where she lived and . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .uh, you know, there was a lot of talking about her and her, everybody, her family or something. And uh, and . . .
TT: Patsy, let me back you up just a little bit. Um, actually to the, to the very beginning of the morning. You and John woke up. (Inaudible) Did you have an alarm clock set or anything?
PR: Uh, I think he had it set, but I don’t think it went off. I think we woke up about, you know, I don’t remember it going off or anything.
PR: I think he just maybe might of, I don’t know how you can turn it off.
TT: Okay. So, John’s alarm I set.
PR: Yeah. It’s on his side of the bed.
TT: You don’t have an alarm that was set on your side of the bed at all?
PR: Hum um.
TT: Okay. Got up, got dressed. Do you remember what you wore that morning?
PR: Black velvet pants and my red sweater.
TT: Okay. Now you went downstairs. When you stopped there at the laundry room . . .
PR: The laundry room.
TT: . . .you stopped at the ironing board and laundry area, was JonBenet’s room, do you remember if the door was opened or closed at that point in time.
PR: It was, it didn’t strike me as unusual, you know, I . . .
PR: . . .and I think it was open just a little bit like I would have left it.
TT: Okay. And that’s, that’s kind of normally how she sleeps with the door kind of . . .
PR: Um hum. A little bit open.
TT: Just a little bit open.
PR: Cause I usually leave a light on in that hallway area there. Either the stairs sconces or the, there’s a light in where the washing machine is . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .right there, you know.
TT: Do you remember with the door being open just a little ways, of there being any lights on in JonBenet’s room.
PR: I don’t remember.
TT: Don’t remember whether there was anything that was illuminating out of that room.
PR: Now her, her main light was not on, you know her lamp was not. . .
PR: When I opened the door I could just tell that she wasn’t in her bed.
TT: Okay. Actually let me back up just a bit. Main light as in the lamp. . .
PR: Like the lamp on, yeah.
TT: . . .next to her bed. She (inaudible) overhead lights.
PR: Hum um.
PR: That lamp beside her bed.
TT: Okay, so that was not on?
PR: Hum um.
TT: Okay, um, what was you going downstairs for? At the very beginning. You get dressed, come downstairs, stop at the ironing board. Why were you heading downstairs in the, the very beginning?
PR: Oh, to make coffee and kind of get a little breakfast ready and just kind of, we were getting ready to, I mean we had to be at the airport at, you know, I think we were going to take off at seven or something like that.
TT: Okay. So you were going to get to the airport about, a little before seven so you could take off at seven?
PR: Yeah, we were going to get there about a half hour before.
TT: Okay. How strict are the takeoff times when your taking off? I mean, do you have to be there and the plane have to leave at seven by the gates . . .
PR: No, no.
TT: . . .or you guys got a window there?
PR: Yeah, there’s a window (inaudible).
PR: But I think we were suppose to meet Mike out there.
TT: Mike Archuletta?
PR: Pilot, yeah.
TT: Okay. So, you were going to try to get out there by 6:30 to meet him by seven and take off.
PR: Yeah. Something, John made all those arrangements. I don’t know exactly what time . . .
PR: . . .we were suppose to meet him.
TT: Okay. You come the spiral staircase. You talked about the note being on the, on the stair, um, do you have any idea which stair that note was on. How far up from the bottom or anything?
PR: I think it was like, the, about the third or somewhere around there.
PR: Cause I went down to the bottom and turned around and read it, you know, like kind of leaned over it looking at it.
TT: Okay. So, it, as it was laid out and you look, you’re standing on the bottom stair or the front . . .
PR: On the floor, yeah.
TT: . . .your looking at it, was it laid out from left to right like you would normally . . .
TT: . . .read a book or something?
PR: Yeah, um hum.
TT: Okay. Um, at that point in time, do you have to step on the note or did you step over it when you came down?
PR: I probably stepped over it.
PR: Cause we sometimes lay papers and stuff there to go up and. . .
TT: Um hum. (Inaudible)
PR: . . .if you step on it you might slip. . .
TT: Hurt yourself.
PR: . . .you know. I don’t, don’t think I stepped on it.
TT: Okay. You pick up the note and start to read it, um, go back upstairs to JonBenet’s room? Is that correct?
PR: Well, I don’t remember if I picked it or, or just leaned over and read it. I can’t remember. I don’t think I picked it up cause I remember just then bounding up the stairs toward her room.
TT: Do you remember hitting any of those papers, maybe sliding or anything as you were running back up to your room.
PR: I don’t remember. I just ran as fast as I could.
TT: Okay. And again when you opened her door, no lights on that you can remember in that room?
PR: Um, her, I know her main lights was not on. Her bathroom light might have been on. I don’t remember.
TT: Okay. Now does she have any little plug in nightlights into the wall or anything like that that she sleeps with.
PR: Um, no.
TT: Okay. She just has a little . . .
PR: Well, the Christmas tree. She had a Christmas tree in there and that, that might have been on. I don’t remember if it was or not. I just don’t remember. I just remember pushing the door open, looking at the bed and she wasn’t in there.
TT: Okay. Were the sheets pulled down, the uh, the comforter and everything pulled down on the bed?
PR: They were kind of ruffled up, you know.
TT: Ruffled up as pulled up towards the top or ruffled . . .
PR: Toward the bottom.
TT: Down towards the bottom of the bed?
PR: Well, I mean, I just looked at it for a split second. I knew she wasn’t there and I screamed.
TT: Okay. You yelled for John. John comes down. Okay, what happened, where did John read the note at when he read it?
TT: Okay. Where, where was . . .
PR: Down, down in the, you know, on, not, not in the laundry room area, but down. I said there’s a note down there.
TT: Okay. Down towards the butler’s kitchen in that area?
PR: No, not all the way down there. On the wooden floor . . .
PR: . . .right there by the TV room.
TT: Okay um. . .
PR: He, I remember him, while I was calling 911, he was hunched over the note and had it laid out there on the floor cause thee was a light. It was still kind of darkish and there was a light, hallway light on . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .he was, you know, reading it there.
TT: Okay. Patsy, do you recall who moved the note from the bottom of the stairs down to where John could read it with the good lighting.
PR: I think he did. I, I (inaudible) . . .
PR: . . .don’t remember exactly, but, I mean it was just, I was just, I was just nuts I (inaudible)
TT: Okay. Where, where were you at when you called 911 cause I know there’s . .
TT: . . .quite a few phones in the house. (Inaudible) kitchen phone there?
PR: Um hum.
TT: Okay. Is that a cordless phone.
TT: Just a, it’s a regular wall phone right?
PR: And it’s some kind of (inaudible).
TT: It, it’s not one of these, oh, what do you call them, you, you, little antenna. You can walk around the house?
PR: No, no.
TT: (Inaudible) This has a cord on it.
PR: To the wall, yean.
TT: Okay. Okay. So you are in there making the 911 call. John’s out in the hallway reading the note, um . . .
PR: ell, I mean we were real, the phone’s right here and he was right there.
PR: I mean it’s just . . .
TT: Right around the corner. Okay. When did you check on burke during all this? You talked about John going to check on Burke.
PR: Yeah. I think he ran and check on him when I was up, up there uh, you know, it just all happened so fast. I said, ‘Oh, my God. What about Burke?’ And I think he ran in and checked him while I was running back downstairs or something.
PR: But I remember he, you know, I think he ran and checked on him and, and he told me he was okay or whatever.
TT: Okay. Was Burke still in the same bed? He hadn’t moved beds or anything like that?
PR: I don’t know. I didn’t go in there and look..
TT: Okay. John talked about that with all the commotion and you guys yelling and stuff, did that wake up Burke at all?
PR: No, it didn’t.
PR: He didn’t get up for awhile.
TT: Cause we talked, John went up later on and, and woke up Burke . . .
TT: . . .and . . .
PR: Yeah. Brought him down.
TT: Okay. Uh . . .
PR: Got him dressed and . . .
TT: Okay. So you’re on the phone call 911. John’s reading the note. What happened then?
PR: Uh, that woman on 911 or whoever I was talking to . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .it just seemed like she took forever, you know. I said, I mean, she just kept saying well what is it, you know, and I said our little girl has been kidnapped, you know, and I gave her the address and, I mean, she just, I mean, just, she, I just said sent somebody fast, you know. Uh, it just seemed like she was just, I’m sure she had things she had to go through . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .but oh. And John just was reading that note and, and then uh, and he went up and got dressed sometime before the policeman got there he had gotten dressed . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .and uh, the Whites and the Fernies came over. . .
TT: Okay. Do, who called the, who called the Whites and Fernies?
PR: I did. I did.
TT: Okay. Do you remember which ones you called first. Who called. Who did you call first?
PR: I, I don’t exactly. I think I called the Whites first, but I can’t remember exactly.
TT: Who did you talk to at the White’s house?
PR: Pricilla, I think.
TT: Okay. Do you remember what you told her about what was going on?
PR: Not, I mean, I was just hysterical. I think I, I probably told her that she had been, JonBenet had been kidnapped. And uh, to come over and . . .
TT: Then you called the Fernies.
TT: And who did you talk to at the Fernie house?
PR: Uh, I think I talked to John. I think I talked to John.
PR: (Inaudible) I don’t remember. I don’t remember. I think John Fernie got there first, before Barbara, but I don’t remember who answered the phone really.
TT: Okay. So John runs upstairs, gets dressed. You’re already dressed. Who’s the first person that comes in the front door. Who’s the first person that comes in the front door. Who’s the first person that makes it over to your house.
PR: Uh, well. The policeman.
TT: Okay. The policeman arrives.
TT: Who, who all was, where was John at the time that the officer arrived?
PR: Oh, I don’t I don’t know. I remember I, I don’t know where he was. I walked out onto the front step there and I was just, I was just kind of out of it. I was hysterical.
TT: Um hum.
PR: I said that there was a not and that our daughter had been kidnapped and we were trying to get the money and I don’t, I don’t remember.
TT: Okay. So you met the officer when he came into, or came up to the front door.
TT: You’re the one that opened the door for him.
TT: Okay. Um, the officer kind of herded you into that, the sunroom area?
TT: And then, the way I understand it, then the Whites and the Fernies got there?
PR: I believe that’s right, yeah.
TT: Do you remember who came in first, the Whites or the Fernies.
PR: I think I think it was the Whites, but I can’t remember.
TT: Okay. Uh. . .
PR: It seemed like they got there pretty quick.
TT: Fleet and Pricilla arrived?
TT: Okay. About what time did John go upstairs and wake up Burke to have him leave, cause I know that was after the Whites got there. Is that right?
PR: I don’t know what time that was, but it was more, it was more daylightish. I mean that was after every, a lot of people were there by then.
PR: Uh, and there was some discussion about what to do about Burke and I think Fleet said he could come over to their house and play or something.
TT: Um hum. What, what kind of discussion, I mean, other than Fleet saying he can come over to my house and play. What to do with Burke?
PR: Well . . .
PR: . . .just you know, we just thought it was best that he not be around. It was, it was just bedlam, you know, and I was a mess and, you know the police trying to do their job and all and . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .you know.
TT: Was it uh, was Linda there by the time uh, when Burke was leaving?
PR: Um . . .
TT: Do you remember that?
PR: I don’t remember exactly. She was, she was there pretty soon, but it seemed like, I remember sitting in the sunroom and it was, more daylightish when she got there.
PR: So I don’t know, I don’t know what time it was really.
TT: Okay. Who called Father Rol and let him know what was going on?
PR: I think Barbara said she did.
TT: Okay. Do you have any idea about what time Father Rol got there?
PR: I don’t know what time anything happened. I was just, I was just frantic.
TT: Okay. Kind of maybe, make your own timeline here.
TT: Um, do you remember if Burke left the house before or after Father Rol arrived?
PR: No I don’t, I don’t remember.
TT: Okay. Um, again, who, who took Burke out of the house? Did John, John and Fleet do that or did just Fleet drive him away?
PR: Uh, I don’t believe John left. I think that John brought him downstairs and uh, he came over to me and told, really couldn’t (inaudible) or anything and he had tears in his eyes, I think, I think we just said you can go over and play at the Whites. I don’t remember exactly who took him out of there.
TT: I know it’s a difficult time and these are some hard questions we have to talk about. Um, Patsy, and again it’s more just hard to understand sometimes and I just want to make sure the secretary can understand . . .
TT: . . .so John brings Burke downstairs and then, is that, that’s when you told him that JonB. . .was missing. JonBenet was missing.
PR: yeah, I think Burke, Burke, I think John had talked to him some upstairs. I don’t know.
PR: (Inaudible) came in and, you know, hugged him before he left.
TT: Did he day anything to you before he left?
PR: (Response inaudible.)
TT: And then you a, then somebody took him over to the White’s house.
TT: Okay. And I know through the, through the morning, and uh, before John went downstairs, can you kind of give me an idea what, what went on in the house during that time? I know there were a lot of things going on, but, kind of what you can remember.
PR: Right, well uh, they uh, I just remember they were setting up back there that tape stuff or whatever so that we’re, and I think Linda had instructed John about what to say when they called and uh, uh, and she was talking to me and said uh, that they weren’t sure, I guess the note said something about like we’ll call at, I forget what time, 10:00 tomorrow or something and, and she wasn’t sure if that was going to be that day, you know . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .tomorrow meaning. . .
TT: The 26th.
PR: . . .the 26th that we were in or tomorrow the 27th and I just remember (inaudible) didn’t want her to be gone overnight and they had to find that day and uh, and I think the phone rang sometimes and every time it rang I would just pray that, that was, you know, that they were calling and, and I just, it got to be later and later and nobody called and I think somehow they got the money, you know, whatever. That $118,000 that they wanted or some, I don’t know how they figured out about that, but they had that ready I think.
TT: Did you have any part of that? An hand in . . .
PR: And uh . . .
TT: Do you know who did get the money? Who, who was suppose to do that?
PR: I don’t know. I mean, John Fernie and Fleet and John, I don’t know. They were in, I was in the in the sunroom and I think and they were all like back in the TV room talking about all that and I . . .
PR: . . .and then it just got so long, you know, it just, I mean it was like afternoon or something and SI remember walking back, cause everything seemed to be happ. . .the hub was kind of like back there in the TV room. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .and uh, so I, I walked back there and uh, that was where the call, they were going to take the call and everything and . . .
PR: . . .uh, so I walked back in there and sat down for a little bit and uh, there were some other people back there and um, and then I heard John scream, screaming and uh, then he just screamed uh, I think Fleet came running and said call 911 and get an ambulance or something and I kept saying what is it? What is it? And, and uh I think Fleet ran up and John Fernie took the phone and said send an ambulance. I don’t know what it is just send help or whatever he said and, and I think Barbara had a hold of me and she wouldn’t let me, she wouldn’t let me go in there. And then people were coming, coming back in and I looked at her and people were just white (inaudible) Pricilla and then, she (inaudible) I forget who, helped, helped me walk into the living room (inaudible) and she (inaudible). I think John said she was gone and he was crying and we kneeled over her and I felt her cheek and her cheek and she was really cold and (inaudible) cold (inaudible) and I just prayed to God to bring her back (inaudible) and so I just (inaudible) she wouldn’t be there anymore and get out of this house and I’m never coming back (inaudible). Sorry. I don’t remember what happened after that.
PR: We left. We left. I don’t remember exactly.
TT: Patsy, I do, we do have, I think we have quite a bit more to cover.
TT: Realistically I think we are looking at about an hour to an hour and a half. Personally I think this is a good time to give you some time. Okay.
ST: We’ll uh, conclude the tape for the moment at 12:30 and we can uh, make a decision when we can reconvene this afternoon.
ST: Back on the air. Well just put a short header on this for the tape. Again, Wednesday, April 30th at 1:40 p.m. and uh, we start an afternoon session with the same persons present.
TT: Patsy, before we get started Steve’s got a couple of quick questions, kind of quick follow up that came up during the morning session, We’ve got a few more on the 26th and we’ll move forward from there.
ST: Patsy, when you came downstairs on the morning of the 26th and discovered the note laid out as you described on the uh, uh one of the steps, do you recall, at that point, and can you recount for me, at what point you touched the note? Were you the one that, did you grab it and run upstairs with it or were you the one that moved it to the floor? Give me an idea of what points that morning you handled the note.
PR: That was a lot in one question.
ST: Okay. When you came down the stairs the first time did you touch the note that time?
PR: I don’t recall dong that but…
PR: …I may have.
ST: Do you recall uh, did the note go back upstairs with you when you went up to check JonBenet’s room?
PR: I don’t remember exactly, but I don’t think so. I think I just, you know, pounced up the stairs as fast as I could. I don’t, I don’t think I took it with me.
ST: Do you recall moving the note from the stairs to it’s eventual position where John read it on the floor?
PR: I, I don’t recall moving it. No.
ST: Do you ever recall touching the note?
PR: Um, not specifically, but I may have. I mean there, later on that morning there were, the note was on the coffee table and I remember, in the TV room, and we were talking about did anybody recognize the handwriting, so I may have touched it then…
PR: …but I just can’t remember.
ST: So certainly your fingerprints may very well be on the note and, and, and explained that way?
PR: Right. I, I, mean I may have touched it you know.
ST: Okay. When you uh, after the note and after what I’m assuming is just sort of pandemonium, after seeing the note, uh, and you called for John, you went to the kitchen and called 911?
ST: Is that right?
PR: …I called, um, I, ran up and opened, you know, pushed open her door and realized she wasn’t there and I ran to the stairwell that goes up to our room and called for John and, and, then, you know, momentarily went downstairs to the kitchen to call.
ST: Was that when John was checking Burke and the rest of the house that you made that call?
PR: Uh, I believe so. I mean everything just happened so fast right there. I, I don’t remember, I just remember at one point, you know, we were saying what about Burke and John ran into check Burke and I ran back downstairs and then suddenly he was downstairs and I mean it was just…
PR: …so fast, you know, everything.
ST: Um, and obviously Burke was Okay and he was able to sleep through this until he was later awakened. Is that right?
ST: Okay. Um, but at some point John came back and caught up with you. You don’t recall if it was during the 911 call or after.
PR: Well I remember I, I remember myself being of the phone and he was crouched down on the floor there in the hallway looking, reading at the note.
PR: And I was on the phone so I don’t know which happened first or it, simultaneously or.
PR: I remember as I was talking to that person looking down at him in his underwear reading the note.
ST: And it must have felt like forever, but it was a matter of minutes that the first officer then later arrived. Is that right?
ST: Patsy, that’s all I have for right now.
PR: Um hum.
TT: Again, some housekeeping questions and, and I touched on some of these before, but I’m going to hit them just one more time. Um, Patsy, do you have any idea which windows in the house were locked or unlocked?
PR: No I don’t.
TT: Any idea about those?
PR: I, I just you know, I don’t recall checking and I couldn’t say for sure which…
TT: Okay. What about doors? Do you have any idea which doors were locked or unlocked in the house?
PR: Um, like that morning…
TT: Um hum.
PR: …you mean or… Well, typically, the only door we would leave unlocked at night is the door from the coat room there…
TT: Um hum.
PR: …into the garage.
PR: You put the garage door down and that locks, you know, you don’t typically lock that metal door there.
TT: Have, have you…
PR: But I don’t, like I said, I didn’t check them. I don’t know, but. You know…
TT: Do you recall any lights being on in the house when you went downstairs the first time to, to make the coffee? Do you remember any lights on in the house?
PR: Not specifically.
PR: I mean typically leave some lights on, but I don’t, I couldn’t tell you exactly.
TT: Okay. Any, any lights specifically that you normally light, leave on. The same light all the time?
PR: Well, we usually leave a light on in the TV room. That little den.
TT: At the back of the house.
PR: And typically we leave on, you know the lamppost and maybe a lamp in the sunroom or something.
TT: So you kind of leave a few lights on in the house, but nothing major.
TT: And you, do you recall that morning whether those lights were on? Do you remember seeing an illumination out of the corner of your eye or anything or when you see John on the floor…
PR: Well, by the time he…
PR: …was on the, you know, when I’m telling you that I was on the phone with 911 and he was on the floor there reading those three pages, the hall light was on and I don’t you know, any one, either of us could have turned it on by then.
TT: Right. And that, that’s bright and obvious and…
PR: Yeah, very bright, yeah.
TT: …(Inaudible). Um, did you ever get a chance before the officer got there to read the whole note other than just the first little bit when you talked about when you first read it? Did you ever get a chance to, to read through that…
PR: I think I glanced back at it. I looked at the, to see who had signed it.
TT: Um hum.
PR: But I did not…
TT: Didn’t read word for word (inaudible). Okay. Later on when you kind of had a chance when the note was laid in, in the TV room there, you guys had kind of chance to look it over. Anything, any of the wording seem significant to you. Anything jump out at you from reading that note?
PR: I just, you know, I just, I didn’t really read it. I just couldn’t bear to read it.
PR: So, I mean I just, you know, I kind of glanced at it to kind of see if I recognized the handwriting, but I just, I never, I don’t know if I ever did read the whole thing.
TT: Okay. So, let me make sure I got this right. You read a little bit of it. The first part of it at the very beginning, got the flavor for what had gone on and then you remember reading the signature and that, that’s about the extent of the note you read?
PR: Right. I mean I, you know, I might have glanced and seen the $118,000…
TT: Um hum.
PR: …but I don’t, I didn’t read the whole thing.
TT: Okay. And I know someone covered a little bit on you, you run upstairs to JonBenet’s room. You go to the foot of the stairs going up towards your room. Is that right?
PR: Uh huh.
TT: Um, yell and John. Scream.
PR: And just call his name John, you know, John.
TT: Okay. Loud and vocal or just…
PR: Well, as loud as I could. I mean I remember my voice kind of cracking cause I was just…
TT: Um hum.
PR: …panicked. You know, but as loud as I could. I think he got the message something was wrong.
TT: Okay. Um, again, do you remember what you told John about JonBenet missing and the note? Do you remember the conversation that you had?
PR: It said she’s been kidnapped. I don’t remember exactly. I mean I was just out of my mind. I, I think she’s been kidnapped. There’s a note. We’ve got to do something, I mean, I just can’t remember what, I was just running around like crazy
TT: Okay. From the time you made the 911 call to the police, John’s on the floor reading the note, till the time the officer, the first officer gets there, other than call the Fernies and the Whites, what else did you do in that, that amount of time? Do you recall doing any other items.
PR: I just prayed. I just prayed and prayed and prayed.
TT: Okay. Do you know where John, John went through his movements throughout the house?
PR: Well, I, I mean, he went back upstairs I presume, and then he came down dressed.
TT: Uh huh.
PR: So, I didn’t really . . .
TT: And, the house is kind of, it’s spread out. I mean . . .
PR: Um huim.
TT: Are you guys using the back part of the house to go up and down . . .
TT: . . .for the most part?
PR: Um hum.
TT: Okay. And the note was on, the note was on the floor and John was reading it when you called the police. Is that right?
PR: When I was calling the police. Yeah, he, it was on the floor there in that back hall.
TT: Okay. And you don’t recall who laid the note down there.
TT: Okay. Before the police arrived and after you guys checked of Burke did either one of you run through the house and check the house at all?
PR: John, I remember him running, going like to the doors, various doors, cause I kept saying how did they get in, how did they get in? And he uh, checked some of the doors I remember. The door to the garage, you know, from the coat room there.
TT: Um hum.
PR: I don’t you know, I just remember him kind of going around checking. I think he went down to the butler kitchen there. Checked, I don’t, you know, I wasn’t watching he did.
TT: Did he ever make a comment about being, any of the doors being unlocked to you? Did he find any doors unlocked that you recall?
PR: He didn’t say that he did.
PR: I don’t remember him saying, you know, he didn’t say Oh I found it or something. I don’t remember him . . .
TT: Okay. Do you remember if John ever went down to the basement to check any of the windows down there before the police arrived?
PR: You know I, you’re just going to ask him I don’t . . .
PR: . . .I was just, you know . . .
TT: Okay. Patsy, after the 26th have you guys been able to do any type of inventory of the house. Have you come u with anything missing at all?
PR: No, I haven’t been back.
TT: Okay. Has John done anything like that? Any type of inventories to see if anything is missing?
PR: I don’t, not to my knowledge.
TT: Look at it like big jewelry items, anything like that something that . . .
TT: . . .you guys might see as obvious that was missing.
TT: Do you know about what time John woke u Burke to get him out of the house?
TT: Don’t have . . .
PR: Don’t recall what time.
TT: . . .any recall as to what time that might have.
PR: No, I wasn’t watching
TT: When did John break that window in the basement?
PR: He, I don’t know exactly when he did it, but I think it was last suimmer sometime when we, the kids and I were at the lake.
TT: In Charlevoix.
PR: In Charlevoix and he told me to come back from out of town or whatever and he didn’t have a key and the only way he could get in was to break the window.
PR: The little um, like door, little window to the basement there.
TT: He had to life the grate out of the way to, to get in there.
PR: Yeah, that’s the one, um hum.
TT: Okay. Any reason why that one wasn’t replaced or the pane wasn’t fixed or anything?
PR: No, I don’t know whether I fixed it or didn’t fix it. I can’t remember even trying to remember that, um, I remember when I got back, uh, in the fall, you know . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .uh, went down there and cleaned up all the glass.
PR: I mean I cleaned that thoroughly and I asked Linda to go behind me and vacuum. I mean I picked up every chunk, I mean, because the kids played down there in that back area back there.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And I mean I scoured that place when, cause they were always down there. Burke particularly and the boys would go down there and play with cars and things and uh, there was just a ton of glass everywhere.
PR: And I cleaned all that up and then she, she vacuumed a couple of times down there.
TT: To get all the glass.
PR: In the fall yeah cause it was just little, you know, pieces, big pieces, everything.
TT: Do you ever recall getting that window replaced?
PR: Yeah, uh, I can’t remember. I just can’t remember whether I got it replaced or not.
TT: Okay. You talk to Burk about, on this. Do you remember, has he talked about hearing anything at all on the night of the 25th or the morning hours of the 26th?
PR: Um, no. I haven’t really talked to him too much about it. It’s been pretty hard.
TT: Okay. You haven’t talked to him at all about it? Okay.
PR: I think he was interviewed by somebody.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And I (inaudible) question.
TT: Okay. Okay. Patsy, has anybody, that you can remember, um, spent time in the basement, um, how many people have had access to the basement know about that basement cellar?
PR: Well my cleaning lady and her husband.
TT: Linda and Mervin?
PR: Yeah, would definitely be one couple, because I had asked them at Thanksgiving time, we were going to be in Atlanta and I had hired them to put out the Christmas trees and some of the Christmas decorations and the big artificial Christmas trees were back in that room.
TT: Um hum.
PR: So they would have been there doing that.
PR: And uh, they also washed the windows, so they may be able to recall whether that window, and he was going to do some odd jobs.
TT: Mervin was?
PR: Uh huh.
PR: Uh, fix some shelves in the playroom and some uh, closet doors that had come off their track and some stuff like that.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And so I would, it seems to me like she and I talked about that window or did, somehow I vaguely remember that if it would have gotten fixed he very likely would be the one to fix it. And at any rate they were going to wash all the windows, so they would have known……
TT: Whether it was fixed or not?
TT: Okay. Um, other than Linda and Mervin, anybody else know about that cellar room down there?
PR: Um. We had people come and let’s see, like plumbers and stuff, but I don’t know if they would go down there. I can’t think who might, who had reason to know about that.
TT: Okay. You say that the artificial Christmas trees were stored in that room?
PR: Yeah, um hum.
TT: Okay. How do they…
PR: Oh, well, you know, Christmas before last, the guys that put them down there put the trees into the closed, into the cellar room there would have been Bob uh, Bob Wallace.
TT: With the goatee?
PR: Yes. Right.
PR: Bob Wallace and one of his friends. I don’t remember what his name was.
TT: Does anyone….
PR: They put them down there.
PR: Put the trees down there so they would have (inaudible).
TT: So Bob Wallace and his friend knew about that room?
PR: About that room. Yeah.
TT: How were the Christmas trees stored down there. Did you guys cover them up? Were they covered in any fashion?
PR: Well, those big ones were just set up in there. They weren’t even covered.
PR: The little ones, the little tabletop trees were back in the, back in the other room and I would put a sheet over them.
PR: But those big ones I don’t think they had anything draped cause, you know, it didn’t have any windows or anything so it didn’t get really dusty in there.
TT: Okay. Now, were the Christmas decorations stored down there too?
PR: Well, they were kind of hanging out in the, the wreaths and things were kind of hanging. Bob Wallace put up nails and…
TT: Um hum.
PR: … hooks and things to hang the, hand wreaths and put plastic over them…
PR: …and then there was another that I called the Christmas room back, back the other way, beyond that shower…
TT: Um hum.
PR: …there a little shower down there. And that’s where I kept most of the Christmas stuff.
TT: Okay. And that (inaudible) old shower that’s got stuff in it. Nobody uses that shower…
PR: As a matter of fact I put big Santa Claus I there and everything. In the shower.
TT: Santa Claus.
PR: Well, the like uh, figurine of Santa Claus.
TT: Okay. Um, that, that cellar door, that peg on that, does that have to be down to deep that door closed?
PR: Uh, well, no it will close. It, you know, it kind of sort of sticks on the carpet a little bit.
TT: Um hum.
PR: I mean, it will close, but that kind of I always kind of flipped that down just so the kids wouldn’t get in there.
TT: Okay. But it doesn’t the door won’t open up because of the carpet without that lock down. If you leave the lock in the up position the door doesn’t just swing (inaudible).
TT: Okay. Were you ever, you were not ever in the basement that morning before the police got there?
PR: No, I was not.
TT: Okay. Have you got anything Steve before we move on to JonBenet?
ST: Patsy, when were you last in that cellar basement room prior to Christmas?
PR: Prior to Christmas?
ST: Yes ma’am.
PR: Well, I was there, I was down there a lot on the 24th wrapping and I was there on the 25th wrapping.
ST: Let me show you a couple of tings. Patsy, does this look like duct tape that you’ve ever owned or used or had in the home.
PR: Um, no
ST: Do you recall ever having any duct tape or multi-purpose tape like that in the home.
ST: Okay. How about cord such as this? Have you ever seen or used or owned or had such cord in the home?
PR: Um, not to my knowledge, no, I’ve never seen…
ST: Doesn’t look familiar at all?
ST: Okay. Patsy, when were you last in Athens, Georgia?
PR: Athens, Georgia? Uh, probably, by stepdaughter went to college there. I was probably there for something.
ST: But, that’s Melinda I’m assuming?
ST: And that would have been some time ago?
PR: Yeah, it would have been, well, let’s see, she’s been in nursing school for two years. At least a couple of years ago.
ST: And the point of my question being if somebody was alleging that you were in Athens, Georgia between Thanksgiving and Christmas of last year would they be mistaken in that recollection?
PR: Yeah, (inaudible) Athens, Georgia.
PR: I was Rome, Georgia. I wasn’t in Athens, Georgia.
ST: Ad Rome, where, you were at the Saturday after Thanksgiving for the…
ST: Okay. That’s all I have for now.
JF: Okay. Let me change…
ST: I’m sorry, John needs to change out his tapes so for the purpose of the tape we’ll take just a short break as…
(End of Tape 2, Side B)
(Begin Tape 3, Side A)
TT: Patsy, we’re going to try to go through, try to get through some of these questions the best we can (inaudible). Is JonBenet afraid of the dark, at all?
PR: Uh, not, I don’t I, think so, not that I know.
TT: We talked early, didn’t have the night light thing plugged into the wall, and she normally slept with the bathroom light on, is that right?
TT: Okay. Any reason for sleeping with the bathroom light on, or just, that’s her normal routine?
PR: Just in case she got up in the night, and that she wouldn’t bump into something…
TT: Okay. Was it the overhead lights or did she have…
PR: I have a (inaudible) little lamp in there, in the bathroom.
TT: Did she ever talk about hearing sounds at night that scared her? Or any noised that she would come talk to you guys about that scared her or anything like that?
PR: Not that I know of, no.
TT: How was JonBenet’s health in general?
PR: Good, I’d say good.
TT: Okay. Any major illnesses at all?
PR: Well, when she was little she had, I think the doctor diagnosed it as pneumonia, but we had Finalin drops, kind of stuff that we made a humidifier kind of thing that I held under her nose and…
TT: Was she hospitalized any at all?
TT: Just a quick trip to the office and that was it?
TT: Okay. What about any injuries, any major injuries, any major injuries to JonBenet?
PR: She, Burke hit her in the face with a gulf club one time, and the leg…
TT: Ay stitches or anything like that?
PR: No, it was just kind of a skin abrasion, she had a little scar, a little teensy little scar there, but it just kind of squashed the skin up and something to stitch it. She had a black eye, and…
TT: The 25th, during the day of the 25th, do you recall seeing any injuries on JonBenet? Any scratches, abrasions, cuts, bruises, or anything like that?
PR: I don’t remember, but she was always getting bruised, you know. Kids just, I don’t remember anything.
TT: Nothing major…
TT: Nothing that you would have to use aspirin or ice, or anything like that?
TT: Okay. About how often do you think you took JonBenet down to Dr. Beuf’s office?
PR: Uh, I don’t know. I don’t know exactly, I man she got a cold or sniffle or something and I’d probably run her to the doctor, but…
TT: Okay. And during that time any major complaints, other that colds and sniffles?
PR: No, not that I know of, I mean, I just can’t remember, maybe there is something…
TT: No I’m just like, anything that sticks out of your mind, other than just for the colds.
PR: They had just the cold, and Burke gets strep a lot; he was there a lot with strep.
PR: But she…
TT: Did he ever pass it on to JonBenet at all or did she get (inaudible).
PR: She didn’t, she got it, I think one or something. They both had a huge case of chicken pox, and I just…
TT: Pretty much normal childhood diseases.
PR: She would ten to have more respiratory kind of stuff.
TT: And just on this, just a little bit, JonBenet wet the bed every once and awhile?
TT: About how often would that occur?
PR: Oh, maybe once a week or something.
PR: If I just didn’t take her to the potty and make her go to the potty before bedtime, she very likely would wet the bed.
TT: Ok. You have any idea about, has this been going on for how long? Any time that she broken and didn’t have any bed wetting problems and then started back up or anything like that.
PR: No, no, she just, I mean I’ve had her in pull-ups until very recently. I kind of thought it might be better, I mean pull-ups and those pamper things are so absorbent, that you can’t you know, the child can’t feel if they’re wet or not. So I thought well it might just be better if she felt wet than being…
PR: Yeah. But she had a lot of dry nights, but she would wet the bed probably once a week.
TT: When she wet the bed, would she come up and tell you guys, or would she just crawl onto the other bed, crawl into Burke’s spare bed, what was the routine if she actually wet the bed?
PR: Well, ah, sometimes she would get up and get into the other bed or sometimes she really wouldn’t wake up and until morning when she normally would wake up and maybe she’d change her nightgown or something and I’d find her things and pajamas in the bathroom floors and…
TT: OK. Is this something you guys (inaudible) about at all?
PR: No, cause I mean, all of, Burke wore pull-ups, you know till he was, at night, you know. Till he was fairly old. And Melinda was, we didn’t even have pull-ups back then, she wet the bed till she was, I mean at least when we were married, she was 8 then. So I didn’t see anything, and a lot of our friends, I mean, and Matthew use to wear pull-ups, you know, so …
TT: So, it wasn’t anything out of the ordinary.
PR: Uh-huh, no.
TT: OK. How did John feel about this, did he have any reason to…
PR: I don’t know if he even knew.
TT: OK. This was something that you took care of?
TT: OK. When JonBenet would wet the bed weekly, who took care of the sheets? Is that something Linda had to take care of? How often, I guess, who would even clean the sheets, to be more specific.
PR: Well, she normally changed the beds weekly, but typically, it the, as seen as, you know I, Linda didn’t come in till 9 o’clock But typically, I would strip the bed, you know, put them in the washer or something.
PR: Before she got there.
TT: Do you remember back in ’94, typical doctor’s visit, you fill out all those forms, making some sort of a notation, on one of Dr. Beuf’s forms about bed-wetting and soiling. That was kind of a concern, you remember anything?
PR: No, before was when I was having chemotherapy. I don’t remember. Susanne took them to the doctor a lot then. My housekeeper, a nanny sort of. I don’t remember. I mean if…
TT: Do you recall filling out these so-called, yes/no question type forms back then?
PR: If I saw it I might remember it.
TT: OK. Anyone that you can recall that would show any inappropriate affection towards JonBenet? Anybody out in the pageant circuit, friends, neighbors, anybody like that?
TT: OK. Anything bothering JonBenet? Did she talk about anybody in general or anything that was bothering her at all?
TT: Was she afraid of anybody? Anybody that she talked about that she didn’t like, she was afraid of, again, from the neighborhood, family, friends, anybody like that that she talked about being afraid of?
PR: She was a little shy with that Luke next door, I think a little blonde fellow. But he was always just real nice to her. I think she kind of had a little crush on him or something. I mean, I can of, always took him as that. By the was never, he never hugged her or any, we never saw him…
TT: She ever talk about being afraid of Luke or anything like that?
PR: No. She’d just kind of get real shy, I mean this is since she was little, kind of get shy with him or something like that.
TT: JonBenet got a letter from the secret Santa. Do you know who the secret Santa was?
PR: Ah, secret Santa. Where did she get the letter?
TT: I’m not sure that she got the letter.
PR: In school or, they had a secret, I know a secret sister thing at the pageant in the summer time, but I don’t remember it being any secret Santa.
TT: Any secret Santa that she talked about or anything like that?
PR: No. Burke had a little secret something at school around Christmas time, he had to bring a little gift for her, and kept getting it. But I don’t remember any of this secret Santa.
TT: Did he do anything like that in school?
PR: Not that I remember.
TT: But Burke did have a secret Santa?
PR: Burke had a little secret. He was supposed to bring a little gift, I think, little finger gifts, and he forgot, you know. He had some little girl and he fort about it until the last day. But I don’t remember JonBenet having that.
TT: OK. JonBenet ever come into your room and complaining or nightmares or anything like that? Any (inaudible)
PR: I don’t remember. I don’t remember her doing that.
TT: OK. Do you ever remember, ah, JonBenet was she able to get up in the middle of the night, if she’d wet herself, change her clothes. Did she have any problems changing clothes in the middle of the night?
TT: OK. And that’s they got dropped on the bathroom floor, (inaudible), jump into bed and be gone for the night.
TT: Anybody else ever sleep in JonBenet’s room?
PR: My mother slept in there.
TT: Slept in that, she slept in that part that…
PR: Right, towards the window.
TT: Against the window. OK.
PR: And, I think when we gone in the summer time, John Andrew had (inaudible) out and slept in there, and one of his friends slept in there before. I have slept in there if she was sick or something. I have slept in there.
TT: Who was some of John Andrew’s friends that have slept in that bedroom?
PR: I think Erin.
TT: From Atlanta.
TT: Erin female?
PR: Erin’s a girl, yeah, uh-huh. She slept in there, and I think one of his friends from college, I can’t remember his name.
TT: Brian Closey? Ben Pickup? One of the fraternity young men?
PR: No, I can’t remember his name. Ah, Brad, is there a Brad? He must be new. I may have been Brad. I don’t know exactly, I don’t remember. Buy John, that was John’s room there, the black and beige. So, typically, they would, if he had his friends or something, they’d sleep in JonBenet’s room when we were gone.
TT: Burke ever sleep over in her room at all? In the spare bed?
PR: A time or two.
TT: And she’d sleep in Burke’s room every once and a while too?
PR: Every once and while.
TT: OK. What kinds of things did JonBenet like to do? What kind of games did she like to play?
PR: She like crafts mostly, like making stuff. Painting, she liked painting. Watch movies and dressed up in makeup and dancing, tap dancing, singing. She got bent on taking violin one time, and I tried to talk her out of it, but she just insisted, so we got a little violin about that big, and she took that for awhile and she decided she didn’t’ want to do that any more.
TT: Did she take anything like craft classes?
PR: Ah, I don’t, I can’t really remember her ever taking any craft classes. She just, we just, I had a drawer full of paper and glue and thing that she liked.
TT: OK. What about painting classes? Take anything like that?
PR: I took painting class this fall, and she would paint with me. Again, we kind of turned our lower kitchen into a little are kind of studio, and she would paint.
TT: OK. For the tape, by the lower kitchen, is that where the sink is right outside by the bathroom there?
PR: That black and white tile from our den.
TT: Back towards the back?
PR: Low, way low. Behind the kitchen and the den.
TT: The bar (inaudible).
PR: There’s a kitchen there.
TT: So, you took painting classes in the fall.
TT: What kind of classes?
PR: Down at CU
TT: Water color or oil, or…
PR: I think you could do either one, acrylic or oils.
TT: OK. Which did you do?
PR: I started out with oil, but then I changed to acrylic because it got on my car when I (inaudible). It smelled real bad, so I switched.
TT: Do you normally keep the painting supplies in that (inaudible) area where the checkered board stuff is?
PR: Yeah, we had it there for a long time, and then around the holidays, I moved all that to the basement.
PR: Ah, cause we put coat racks and things in there for parties.
TT: OK. What part of the basement do you recall moving the painting supplies to?
PR: I don’t remember. I think Linda took all that own there. I think it was kind of, I don’t remember. (Inaudible) was storing everything, I don’t remember where she put it.
TT: Is that a (inaudible), how much stuff are taking about?
PR: Well, I had a bunch of big canvasses; had a Santa by the lawn, and a big easel, a big tall easel; and then like a white caddy kind of thing, like a plastic thing that I had a bunch of paint in. It would have been a lot of stuff to flip over.
TT: So some place in the basement is where (inaudible) all that?
TT: Did JonBenet ever sleepwalk during the night, did she ever have any problems with that?
TT: What about anybody in the family? Anybody in the family have any problems sleepwalking, getting up at night. You remember hearing Burke wandering around at night, John wandering around at night.
PR: I’d hear Burke get up and use the bathroom.
TT: Other than that, any sleepwalking problems with anybody?
TT: OK. Nedra talked about JonBenet’s pageant nightgown a little bit.
PR: Her what?
ST: May have described this as her Barbie nightgown or her traveling pageant nightgown.
PR: She had a Barbie nightgown, but I don’t know if we had a specific pageant nightgown.
TT: Was that special to her in any way, or just a nightgown like all the other little nightgowns?
PR: Well, she had this little kind of Genie kind of, little ink
ST: Maybe that’s it?
PR: That might be what it was. Genie, Barbie. Ah it was this little, grandma got it for her, it was little pants like, that nylon kind of stuff, you know. Just a little (inaudible) white piece.
TT: OK. Maybe that’s what Nedra was talking about.
PR: It might be what she’s talking about.
TT: Did she have a favorite nightgown that she took to all these pageants or anything like that or?
PR: I don’t remember that.
TT: OK. Something Nedra came up with.
PR: She remembered that.
TT: On the pageants a little bit, about how many pageants was JonBenet in?
PR: Ah, I was trying to think of that the other night. The best I can remember, about eight or ten, total I think. I mean, we, you know, it wasn’t, I mean we, it was just last year about this time that we were getting all of our clothes together.
TT: So she just started…
PR: It wasn’t, she had done a little in Charlevoix when she was 4, and she was, that would have been the summer before last. And then we did one, and we really, I don’t think, oh let’s see she did one, we just started in the spring I think, because I just started learning about these in Colorado like in March of last year.
TT: OK. In going to these eight or ten pageants, you notice anybody that was, and not only just towards JonBenet, but in general, notice anybody that was odd or out of the ordinary, anybody like that?
PR: Well, they were, I mean it was just pageants and things of the (inaudible). I mean I never noticed anybody, cause some of the same people sort of showed up at all of them.
TT: (Inaudible) the circuit or whatever?
PR: Right. I mean they were sponsored by different people, buy, you know, generally sort of the same girls went to these, and just, you know, parents. John didn’t go to all of them because he kind of take, it was a Sunday afternoon kind of thing. She and I would go do that, and he and Burke would go fly or something, and maybe they’d come toward the end and watch the crowning, you know. But it really wasn’t too much of a dad thing, but there were, you know, some dads there.
TT: No one though that as being kind of odd or out of place or…
PR: No, no.
TT: OK. I know JonBenet has quite a few photographs, some of them the professionally done ones. Do you have anybody that did most of her portraits?
PR: Well, just two fellows. One was this David Haskel in Denver. And I met him because I had been asked to go have a photograph made by him for the Colorado Women’s (inaudible) newspaper that, Debbie, Debra and Rosenberger is the editor, here in Boulder. So she took me down there one day, and I had my picture made and so then, you know, I like him and everybody down there. And actually the makeup artist down there was who told me that her little girls had done pageants. I said well, you know, where do you know about these, and she called and gave me names that day.
TT: So David was the photographer before the pageants got started before the pageant circuits started up?
PR: Right. He was taking pictures of me for the Colorado Women’s News or whatever the name of it.
TT: OK. About how many photographs did David do, about? Did he photograph at all?
PR: Yeah, then I went down, I know at least twice, and had pictures made of her.
TT: And those were glamour shot ones. Were they, what kind of portraits were they?
PR: Well, they, he did. I mean, we took, he said bring a bunch of different clothes. So we bought costumes, blue jeans, ah
TT: He did a whole portfolio.
PR: A bunch of stuff, yeah. And then he really had done most of them, but they all kind of looked alike, you know, the ones that he would do. So, I got the name of this other fellow, Randy Simon, who did this pageant pictures frequently. And so I called him at the last minute before we went to Michigan last year, and he had some time available. So, we went out a day with him, and he did a whole bunch of them too. He did some in the studio and then did some, we went to different places around.
TT: OK. Were these still the glamour shot type stuff, or are they portrait studio type?
PR: Well, I don’t know what you mean by glamour shot, I mean, they call them character shots, like one was Little Red Ridinghood and one was in a little sun dress, and one was bare foot, you know those fun things. And then there was some in the studios like a model, those kinds of things.
TT: Any professional photographs of Burke done?
PR: No. I mean, we had family pictures taken, but he, but these were just for the pageant things because they would have, they had categories that you entered. For photogenic or whatever. So those were specifically taken for those.
TT: Who was the family photographer? Did the family photograph do JonBenet and Burke?
PR: We went for a while to a fellow named Willis. I can’t remember his last name, but he as at Better in Light Photography. And he’d usually take a Christmas picture. And then I started going to Moto Photo there in, down in Deckens (inaudible).
PR: They did a Christmas one and Easter one, had a little Easter bunny (inaudible).
TT: OK. Any, did you get one, was there one photographer, Joe Moto, or was it just
PR: I think there was a woman, a tall woman. I think there was, those were (inaudible) pin-ups, kind of like all males or something that was there.
TT: To see what was available. OK. On one of JonBenet’s (inaudible), you do like a pageant resume, is that right? Or, I don’t know if that resume is the right word.
PR: Like an entry form or something?
TT: Yeah, entry form or something that kind of tell people about, who JonBenet, what her likes are?
PR: Yeah. You write down that, like what’s their hobbies.
TT: Right. And on of those had something about a kitty game, that was her favorite game. You remember what that’s about?
PR: To play kitty. Yeah, she likes to play kitty (inaudible).
PR: You don’t like kitty huh. She and Daphne like to, they love kittens. And we had some kittens up at the lake (inaudible). And she and Daphne like to pretend they were kittens. She’s just, they would walk around and they would say, oh there’s a kitty, (inaudible). Let’s go into the pet shop, I think I’ll buy this one.
TT: And that’s the game JonBenet really like or something?
PR: She and Daphne played kitty. They’d walk around on all fours, you know.
TT: Ah, you have anything else, Steve.
ST: You guys need a short break, or do you want to keep going?
PR: Fine, you guys need a break?
ST: Patsy, once we were told that Burke at times, would walk through the house whittling and that was something that apparently got on Linda Hoffmans’ nerves somehow to clean up after him.
ST: Was this consistent with his little pocketknife?
ST: He’d walk through the house whittling and for the tape, I’m showing Patsy a photo of a little red Swiss army knife.
PR: Right. He had one we had gotten him in Switzerland, it h ad his mane on it. Does this have his name on it?
ST: I don’t know.
PR: You don’t know, OK
ST: And I have spoken with Linda, and she’s identified this suitcase as belonging to, well not necessarily belonging to, but a suitcase that she has used and that John Andrew has used, and that John Andrew likely had left at your house.
ST: Do you recognize that blue suitcase?
ST: OK. Can you tell me anything about it?
PR: Well, just it’s old hard Samsonite or whatever, you know.
ST: And what this something that John Andrew let at the 15th Street home while he went to school at CU?
PR: Yeah, yeah, that’s to my recollection. Yeah, he moved out here with a bunch of stuff and then he left a lot of stuff t our house that he didn’t want to take to the dorm.
ST: Do you know where he kept that in your home, or where you last saw that?
PR: No, I don’t remember where I last saw it.
PR: He, I don’t know.
ST: Where would John Andrew store his other items and affects?
PR: Some of the things are in his room I think, in the closet, and I think he put a bunch of stuff down in the basement. A computer, he had a computer and a printer, and I think that might have been in the basement too. It’s pretty big, I think it was in the basement.
ST: Do you know what room in the basement he would have, his stuff was stored in? Was it in the train room, or the…
PR: It wasn’t, I don’t know now, there was so much stuff down there. I can, it could have been anywhere.
ST: I saw a Christmas photo and have been told that on the night of the 23rd, you gave several of those men that attended that party scarves s gifts.
ST: And is this scarf from your home representative of one of the scarves that you gave as gifts?
PR: Ah, I gave some like that, buy John also has one like that. And that could have been…
ST: John Andrew or John Ramsey?
PR: No, my husband, so that could have been his, I don’t know. He usually kept his stuff back in his (inaudible), I don’t. But the ones I gave out were similar to that.
PR: But, I don’t know whether that was…
ST: If this is the one that belongs to your husband or one that you gave as a gift?
PR: All right. It almost looks more like the one that was Johns.
PR: That that given him.
TT: Let me first describe the picture for the tape, cause the secretary’s going to kill me. That’s the back sink right there at he bottom of the circular staircase.
TT: OK. OK. That photograph of that.
ST: Patsy, to the best of your memory, how many flashlights did your family own or keep in the house on the 15th Street?
PR: I don’t know.
ST: Do you…
PR: Burke had some round ones, you know.
ST: Did John, as a pilot or for the cars in the garage or the house, did he, do you recall flashlights?
PR: I think we had kind of a big one, I don’t know where it was. I think John Andrew gave it to John for, I don’t know whether he gave it to him for the plane or not. I know he keeps one in the plane, I think.
ST: Can you describe that for me, what color it was for example?
PR: The one John gave…
PR: I think it was in that drawer that, that little, we usually kept it I think in that drawer. Yeah.
ST: Maybe in this room somewhere in this vicinity.
PR: Yeah, and I think it was like a big black one, you know.
ST: Well, is this picture, and that’s not a good photo. Would that be representative of the flashlight that you are describing.
PR: Yeah, probably, I’m afraid don’t know what this it is.
ST: Ad for the purpose of the tape, I’m showing Patsy a photograph depicting, is that the kitchen table?
TT: Kitchen counter.
ST: Kitchen counter, with several items, but including what appears to be a flashlight on it.
PR: Yeah, it appears to be. I remember a big, he gave him a big flashlight at one time, but I don’t remember.
TT: Is it plastic material it’s made out of?
PR: It seemed like it was heavy, I don’t know.
PR: John would remember.
TT: OK, next let me do this for the secretary. When you were talking about the drawer that the flashlight was normally kept in, refer back to that other picture, the drawer by the sink.
TT: Bottom of the staircase.
TT: The drawer to the left of (inaudible).
PR: Kind of a catchall, sort of.
TT: Dump drawer.
PR: Dump drawer, we have lots of junk drawers.
ST: Patsy, did you or John or anybody in the family own a pair of binoculars?
PR: We have binoculars somewhere.
PR: I think we’ve got some on the (inaudible), I think.
ST: OK. But again, probably like the flashlight, can you describe, recollect that pair of binoculars…
PR: I think there was some binoculars up I John Andrew’s room, up on the dresser, the highboy, I think.
ST: Green, black, blue, red?
PR: I, black I think. I don’t remember. I don’t think they’re blue or red. I don’t know where they cam from or…
ST: Patsy, is that bathroom in the basement typically used, infrequently used?
ST: Who uses that?
PR: I, when we had the home tour, that Christmas tour a couple of years ago, I cleaned it up and let the volunteers use that. They kind of made a little office down in the basement. You know, there were a lot of, all those volunteers would have been in that basement. Talking about who would have known about that cellar room.
TT: What part of the basement did they have their office down there?
PR: Well, I just had a little card table set up, and there were, is this ok to skip back to when we were talking about?
PR: You know, they had to like register, sign in. There was going to be a tour guide, that sort of thing. So a lot of people would have been down in that basement. I know it was couple of years ago, but you, I didn’t even go back down at all with them, they could have wondered back down there.
TT: OK. Now is there a sign-in list some place, who ran the sign I list.
PR: Jane Cronick was the, like the house chairman or something like that. And I bet she would have a list of those people.
TT: OK. Betty Cronick?
PR: But, I don’t know if they still kept it, but if anybody would, Mrs. (inaudible) might. I’m sorry (inaudible) what were we talking about? Oh a thought just occurred to me, it would have been a lot more people down there.
ST: I’m bouncing around on the page with you, but again, that might be a list that we’d certainly like to look at, along with a number of other things, as I hope we continue to work together on this thing. That includes a list of who was in that basement and might be able to (inaudible).
PR: And we were talking about who all used that bathroom. I think that, you know, the boys (inaudible) and Burke and kids would go play in the rain room there, and I think Linda mentioned one time that she, you know, opened that bathroom and it was coming back down in there, and I think occasionally the kids might have used that.
ST: OK. Kids.
PR: Somebody used the bathroom and didn’t flush it.
TT: OK. Kids.
PR: After a long time. But, you know, that was not one that we normally used.
ST: Did you ever report, previously I’ve been told that you have a video camcorder stolen from the home.
ST: Was that ever reported to the police?
PR: I don’t remember whether it was or not. That was, I don’t know if it was. I mean, we discovered that about the time we were having carpet done and that’s when I came back from chemo and all that, and I don’t think it was, in the sale of things, you know, all that important. I must don’t remember. I remember we thought it was probably the carpet people, but you can’t prove it. I mean, we’ve lost so many cameras and…
ST: Patsy, before we move into the next section, we’re going to get into some hard stuff and you know we’re going to get into some hard stuff and move through this and conclude our day. But I want to ask you a question, because as to how you perceive my role and Tom’s role in this investigation. And just in a minute of less what do you think it is that we’re doing ad trying to do.
PR: Well I hoe that you are tying to find out who killed my daughter. I mean, that is the bottom line, you know. We’ve got to find out who did this. I’m praying that your department is doing all they know how to do in your power to do that, and you know, I wouldn’t (inaudible) helping, you know.
ST: Well, Patsy I can tell you this, since December 28th when I was asked to participate in this case, this has been in one aspect or another, my entire life, seven days a week, every waking thought. And most of the time, most of my dreams at tonight. And I can tell you, and I can speak for Tom and Pete Hoffstroma well. And not speak out of school, but we are committed to finding the person who did this and (inaudible) of that is the truth, and that’s entirely what we’re working towards regardless of what you read in the tabloids or the newspaper.
PR: I don’t read anything…
ST: This is the first time that we’ve had an opportunity to sit down with you, and I’ve chased leads all over this country. And I’ve sat down with people in jail cells, and I will continue to chase any lead with any merit. But, you know you’re in the bucket, and I’m sure pat’s told you how the bucket works. We got to get you out of that bucket if that’s appropriate. And this was a start today to getting there, but let me move through some of these questions and regardless what you think of me personally, right now, or after today, I can tell you that I am committed, and I’ll go to the ends of the earth to work this case and to solve this case. Whether the Ramseys hate me or like me or are indifferent to me, but I …
PR: I appreciate you saying that. I mean, I , music to my ears.
ST: If it’s appropriate patsy, and you’re not involved and you know we’re still trying to determine whether you’re in the bucket or out of the bucket, I hope that if you ever et out of that bucket.
PR: What’s the in the bucket, out of the bucket mean.
ST: Well, let me give you that analogy. There is a number of people, a list if you will, that we certainly have to include or exclude off that list. I can only appreciate what your life’s been like for the last four months, but what we’re working towards is the resolution that we’ll reach in this thing. If this is somebody you knew Patsy, if this offender was somebody that you knew, who would have had the best opportunity to have committed this crime by entering your home, writing the note inside your home, and I don’t think it’s a far reach to say that the note was written inside the house given the circumstance with the pad and the character comparison and so forth.
PR: I don’t know what the ah…
ST: The note was written from a pad inside the home.
PR: It was?
PR: Oh, I didn’t know that.
ST: And let me ask you this, if this was somebody who came into the home that you knew, who might this person have been? Who would have had the best opportunity, if it was somebody that you know to have done this?
PR: God, I don’t know. I mean, I have asked myself that question a million times. I mean, you know, anybody that had keys and I’m trying to remember everybody. I think I, you know, the cleaning lady and the (inaudible) had a key and the, or if somebody that could have gotten to a key, or if it was actually, I don’t know how to pick locks, you know. And I don’t know that the doors wee locked or they could have, you know, walked right in. And you know, have you seen that little side flip door in the garage? That had been locked don the inside, one of those slide locks, you know. I mean, I don’t know, if that was open, they could have gotten in.
ST: Patsy, as you’ve thought about this over the last four months, do you think that this incident, the death of JonBenet started out as a premeditated act or do you think it was an event that got out hand by the offender?
PR: I don’t think that, I don’t know. I can’t begin to guess why anybody would do this.
ST: Why do you think somebody did this, Patsy?
PR: I don’t know.
ST: Do you think the person who did this, under any circumstances, would deserve a second chance?
PR: A second chance?
ST: What do you mean, a second chance?
ST: Pity or forgiveness?
PR: Oh God, no. I mean, not a…
ST: What should happen to the person that we apprehend, Patsy?
PR: I don’t know what you do tot people that do this. But whatever it is, strongest punishment there is, I don’t, especially to a child.
ST: Patsy, did you write the note?
PR: No, I did not write the note.
ST: Is there any reason, Patsy, that your blatted print of your hand will be on that paper when it tests?
PR: I did not write the note and I don’t, what’s blatted?
ST: This portion of your hand.
PR: I don’t know. I mean, I picked it up or touched it, it may be on there, but I did not write the note.
ST: You can appreciate Patsy, and I watched on CNN, and I tried to follow this point closely. We know that we’re not a large police department, and I’m certainly the first to ask for help when something’ beyond me or to go to experts. And I’m a little concerned because we’ve gone to the experts, the FBI, and Secret Service and Interpol and they told us there’s not an SBTC, and we’re having trouble with this small foreign faction, and the FBI guys in Quantico say that there were steps taken to make this look like something that it wasn’t.
PR: I’m losing you here. We having trouble with our what small foreign faction, what’s that?
ST: That was listed here in the note. That was some of the content of the note. But these guys at Quantico, Virginia with the FBI who do this day in and day out, told me they told Tom, they said, we’re having trouble wit the note. Because this is what we see in the movies, but not I real life. And whoever did this, all that was done was done and all that was made was made to make us look as something that wasn’t there. And they think that this was an accident and panic on someone’s part and that there was no initial intent to harm, but that things simply got out of hand. And patsy, I’ve got to ask you, and I’ll ask you right now, did you participate in anyway in the death or the events after the death of JonBenet?
PR: No, absolutely not.
ST: Patsy, do you have any knowledge of John participating in this in any way?
ST: If that were the case, would you come forward and tell me?
PR: Of course, yes.
ST: Patsy, will you continue to cooperate with us in the future as its appropriate, and certainly under the advice of your attorney, but at some point, if we could take you out of the bucket and of this list. This has been my life 100 hours a week, since December 28th, and come to the table and get on our side if we can positively and definitively eliminate you from involvement in this?
PR: Absolutely, I mean, I want to work with you. Everyday and every minute if it will help.
ST: Let me ask you one other thing Patsy. I’m no expert in handwriting, but I am concerned. And I’ll share with you quite frankly that I’m concerned and I’m having trouble moving away from you as being potentially involved, because the handwriting experts say, Steve, this means nothing to you because you’re not an expert, but we’re seeing some indications that you may have authored that note. Is there any reason at all that you can think of, why these experts would say that?
PR: I, I mean I don’t, I’m not a handwriting person. I’ve given handwriting after handwriting, after handwriting. You know, maybe it’s a female that wrote the note. I mean, I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know how to analyze handwriting, but I’m sure they’re doing the best they now how to do. But, I don’t know what else to do, you know. I write like I write.
ST: Patsy, has everything that you’ve told us today been voluntary and truthful?
ST: Tom, that’s all the questions I have.
TT: Patsy, is there anything else that you know of at this point and why it would point us towards a specific suspect?
PR: Not that I can think of right now.
TT: OK. Anything that we haven’t asked you that we need you to think of, that we need to talk about, anything at all.
PR: I don’t know, but you think of anything else, call me.
PR: Is that all right?
PR: I mean really and truly, I want to, I mean you say you thought about it 100 hours a day, I’ve thought about it every waking, sleeping moment, you know. God, and I want to work wit you, you know. John and I both. Please. You know, I can’t tell you how much we want to work with you. So, anything else, ask me.
ST: Patsy, if we each that point that we’re able to move past you.
PR: What does it take to move past me?
ST: Well, let me ask you this, and I know Pat Burke’s going to jump all over me. And I know, well, let me ask you his way. I’m not asking you to take one, but hypothetically, if you took a polygraph, how would you do?
PR: I’m telling you the truth. I would, I mean I don’t know how those things work, but if they tell the truth, I ‘m telling the truth. I’ve never ever given anybody a reason to think otherwise. I want to find out who did this, period.
ST: Does that mean, yes, you’d pass it?
PR: Yes, I would pass it. I’ll take ten of them, I don’t care, you know. Do whatever you want.
ST: Patsy, let me make this clear to you. As much as you feel, and certainly from the media.
PR: I don’t care what the media says. I do not give one diddly squat what the media says. Sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you. I just want to find out who did this.
ST: I want to make it clear to you that you are not the only people that we’re looking at in this thing. Despite what you may know and hear to the contrary. But outside the politics and outside of everything else hat goes on a t pay grades far above mine, Tom, and myself, and Ron, and Linda, and Jane, and Melissa, and Tom Wickerman will work this to the end, and I’m sort of beating a dead horse here, but I hope that we can reach that point. And if it takes your offer of passing ten polygraphs, if we can get pass that burden, we’ll certain do that. But I think today was a good start. OK. Now, I’m going to shut up.
PR: Well I, I mean I realize that you have to look at us, you know. And that’s fine. But just, I have the (inaudible) the exclusion to find out who did this. Because we did not, we’re not involved in this. And I just don’t want you to..
ST: I got to tell you what’s, and let me just give you a little opinion on my part. It’s been hard. Today we made great strides because we’ve got information direct from the source that we’ve never had before. I’ve had to fly to Atlanta and talk and your mom several times to check on everything from a blanket to a key to this and that. So I think that’s why t his has moved very slowly.
PR: Well, we want to get together, you know.
ST: I know, I know.
PR: And all that’s water under the dam and let’s start new. But I want to go together here. We got to, there’s somebody out there and I don’t want him to do it again, and heaven forbid, you know, if they are not found.
TT: Patsy, one of the things that I will ask is if you would ever like to speak with us again, obviously, can’t just call and come in and talk to me. Talk to Pat, and I’m available 24 hours a day. And anytime you would like to talk, get a hold off him, he can get a hold of Pete, and the door is always open. We’re always here to listen to you…
PR: I mean, I think you’re probably understand why we were a little gun shy, you know. And on the advice of these gentlemen, you know. We got to be a team here, al of us.
TT: OK. And if you come up with anything at all, we’d like to hear about it.
PR: Certainly will do.
ST: Not to cut if off, but I want to get John in. He’s been waiting al afternoon. So for the tape, I’m going to close, Mr. Burke unless you have anything, I’m going to close it at (inaudible).
PB: I have a few remarks. I would like you to leave the room for just one minute. In no particular order, I want both of you, if you have addition request, to go through me at all times, and the ones that were mentioned on the tape that I have a note on, were the people who came in to do construction repairs, and then a couple of other items. And under no circumstance would I want you to go directly to Patsy, and I hope you understand that. You made a statement, one of you made a statement that whatever is said here, stays in the room. Based on prior history, I don’t have a lot of confidence in that, but I, you said it sincerely, and I hope that you meant it.
ST: Let me just respond to that, real briefly. You have our worked, Tom’s and mine. You’ve got to also understand that secretaries transcribe this and people outside of our control will read these reports. So we will give you our word, it will not come from us other than to members on the team.
PB: Steve, I think you understand why I made that remark, and I was certainly not making any accusations directed you personally, or at you, Tom, personally. But you made the commitment that it stays in the room, and I hope that you will do try your best to honor the commitment.
TT: I will. I will do everything I can as far as the police department goes, that it stays right here.
PB: I held my tongue except for one remark throughout the day. I do not want you, either of you to think that just because I did not object in the legal sense that I thought each and every one of your questions was based on true facts, but I understand you had a job to do. I wanted to give you free reign so that you didn’t feel as though there was an attorney interrupting you from time to time. I just don’t want this transcript, when it is prepared, to suggest that just because I did not object at various times, that means that I agreed with all your remarks or all the facts that were put into your questions. I will find out the name of the medication, the green pill that she was taking. I think you asked that, and I will also find out what that was. And those are my remarks.
ST: OK. Pete, you have anything to say for the tape.
ST: OK. At 3 p.m., we’ll conclude this.
(End Tape 3, Side A)