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13 VOLUME 1 OF 4

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19 JUNE 23RD, 1998


































 1 LOU SMIT: Today's date is Tuesday the

 2 23rd of June 1998. The time is right at 9 o'clock.

 3 What I'd like to have done, and there's a lot of

 4 people that aren't on the camera, and for voice

 5 identification and everything, I'd like everyone

 6 to identify themselves and I'll start with myself

 7 and we'll just go clockwise. I'm Lou Smit. I'm an

 8 investigator for the Boulder County District

 9 Attorney's office. I've been working on this case

10 since March of 1996 -- 1997, I'm Sorry. So John?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: John Ramsey.

12 BRYAN MORGAN: I'm Bryan Morgan, and I'm

13 John's Lawyer.

14 DAVID WILLIAMS: David Williams, and I'm

15 an investigator for Bryan Morgan.

16 MIKE KANE: Michael Kane, and I'm Deputy

17 District Attorney in Boulder County.

18 LOU SMIT: Okay. First of all, as you all

19 know, this is being audio and video recorded. And

20 that's a -- I think a real good thing to do. The

21 video is in black and white and we do have real

22 good facilities for audio recording.

23 I'd like to just start out and ask, first of all,

24 I'm so used to calling you Mr. Ramsey. Is it okay

25 to call you John?



 2 LOU SMIT: John, at this particular time,

 3 do you have any medical problems at all that you

 4 know of?


 6 LOU SMIT: Okay. Are you under, taking any

 7 medication?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Taking Prozac.

 9 LOU SMIT: Okay.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Twenty milligrams in the

11 morning, ten milligrams at night.

12 LOU SMIT: Okay. And who is the doctor?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, Dr. Sheevy, Catherine

14 Sheevy, is who I saw in Boulder. Well I haven't

15 seen her in a while. Steven Jaffee, Dr. Steven

16 Jaffee in Atlanta, prescribed the Prozac for me.

17 LOU SMIT: Okay.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: He's actually Burke's

19 psychiatrist.

20 LOU SMIT: When was the last time you took

21 a pill?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: This morning.

23 LOU SMIT: This morning. About what time?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably about 7:30.

25 LOU SMIT: And what is the dosage of that?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: 20 milligrams.

 2 LOU SMIT: And how do you actually feel,

 3 mentally, right now?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I woke up on Eastern

 5 Time, so I feel like I've been up for a while. But

 6 I'm fine.

 7 LOU SMIT: Do you have any problem with

 8 this interview continuing?


10 LOU SMIT: Is there anything that may be

11 influencing your thoughts or your ability to think

12 clearly at this time?


14 LOU SMIT: In the first letter I wrote to

15 you, in passing, when we were first getting

16 involved in this, I did tell you that you and your

17 family would be treated with respect, and we'd do

18 anything in our power to find the killer of your

19 daughter and bring him or her to justice. Do you

20 remember that letter?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, I do.

22 LOU SMIT: We still intend to do this. And

23 we need your help. And we do need to work

24 together.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes. Well, you folks have


 1 always treated us with respect. And I think it's

 2 important for you to know from our perspective on

 3 this. We've been looking forward to this when you

 4 called, and we've been anxious to have an open

 5 dialog with the people that are trying to solve

 6 this crime. And, from the beginning, we felt that

 7 the, rightly or wrongly, that the Boulder police

 8 were not of that frame of mind. That they were,

 9 frankly, out to lynch us and that dialog was never

10 able to be established. So our intent is to just

11 be open and ongoing, and there's no higher

12 priority in our lives priority in our lives than

13 to find out who did this. If we can help do that,

14 we'll spend 24 hours a day, if we need to. So,

15 that's how Patsy and I look at this. So, we're

16 here to help.

17 LOU SMIT: All right. What I'm going to do

18 -- you sent a letter in April of 1998. And it

19 looked like a personal letter from you sent to

20 Bryan Morgan, I believe, and we got a copy. If you

21 don't mind, what I'd like to do is read that into

22 the record? Can I do that? Do you have any problem

23 with that?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: No. No problem.

25 LOU SMIT: This is -- first of all, the


 1 letter that we have from Bryan Morgan is dated

 2 April 15th, 1998, and it's a hand-delivery letter,

 3 and it's addressed to Alex Hunter. And Bryan

 4 Morgan writes in his own handwriting,

 5 (Dear Alex, as you know, we proposed last week

 6 that the Ramsey's meet with Detective Smit with a

 7 Boulder police officer present. The Ramseys regret

 8 that this proposal was not accepted and won't --

 9 and want to renew their offer to meet with

10 Detective Smit. I have been instructed to deliver

11 this letter from John Ramsey to you so that you

12 may know his feelings in his words.̃

13 And it's signed John Ramsey. Mr. Ramsey, I don't

14 know if I can read your writing very well, and I

15 would like you to read it, if you will?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: (Dear Mr. Hunter, I'm writing

17 this letter because it seems difficult at times to

18 communicate through attorneys who are focused on

19 protecting my rights as a citizen. I want to be

20 very clear on our family's position. We have no

21 trust or confidence in the Boulder police. They

22 have tried, from moment they walked into our home

23 on December 26th, 1996, to convince others that

24 Patsy or I or Burke killed JonBenet. I will hold

25 them accountable forever for one thing: not


 1 accepting help from people who offered it in the

 2 beginning and could have brought a wealth of

 3 experience to bear on the crime. We, myself and

 4 Patsy and Burke, John Andrew and Melinda will meet

 5 any time, anywhere, for as long as you want with

 6 investigators from your office.

 7 If the purpose of a grand jury is to be

 8 able to talk to us, that is not necessary. We want

 9 to find the killer of our daughter and sister and

10 work with you 24 hours a day to find it.̃

11 I can't refer to this thing as a person

12 frankly.

13 (If we are subpoenaed by a grand jury, we will

14 testify regardless of any previous meeting with

15 your investigators. I'm living my life for two

16 purposes now: to find the killer of JonBenet and

17 bring it to the maximum justice our society can

18 impose. While there is a rage within me that says,

19 give me a few minutes alone with this creature and

20 there won't be a need for a trial, I would then

21 have succumb to the behavior which the killer did.

22 Secondly, my living children must not have to live

23 under the legacy that our entertainment industry

24 has given them based on false information and a

25 frenzy created on our family's misery to achieve


 1 substantial profit.

 2 It's time rise above all this pettiness

 3 and politics and get down to the most difficult

 4 mission: finding JonBenet's killer. That's wall we

 5 care about. The police cannot do it. I hope it is

 6 not too late to investigate this crime properly at

 7 last.

 8 Finally, I am willing and able to put up

 9 a substantial reward, one million dollars, through

10 the help of friends if this will help derive

11 information. I know this would be used against us

12 by the media dimwits. But I don't care. Please,

13 let's all do what is right to get this worst of

14 all killer in our midst. Sincerely, John Ramsey.̃

15 LOU SMIT: Thank you, John. I would just

16 like to ask you a couple things about that letter.

17 First of all, where did you write this letter at?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I was in David Williams'

19 kitchen.

20 At his counter.

21 LOU SMIT: And is that here in --

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Here in Denver. Yeah.

23 LOU SMIT: And what prompted you to write

24 that letter? I mean you hadn't written a letter

25 before like that.


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: We just finally came to the

 2 end of our rope in terms of frustration with what

 3 we viewed as silliness. We, frankly, tried to

 4 communicate through -- actually it was Pat Burke,

 5 Patsy's attorney who was visiting with us and we

 6 said, look, this is ridiculous --

 7 BRYAN MORGAN: Excuse me. I really can't

 8 get into, and let John get into conversations that

 9 happened with the lawyers. That's a problem that I

10 just have to protect. Some the privileges have

11 waived for all purposes. I'm perfectly (INAUDIBLE)

12 for this conversation to be put on the record if

13 there's an understanding that this is not a

14 waiver. But the attorney/client privilege in

15 general. I understand, but I do have to watch out

16 for this. If that's okay with Mr. Kane, and it's

17 not a full-scale waiver, then go ahead and you may

18 talk about that conversation.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay. Well, we were, I guess

20 very frustrated that we couldn't seem to get off

21 the dime with a serious investigation with good

22 communication. There seemed to be just a lot of

23 frivolous motives floating around that were

24 preventing a serious investigation from taking

25 place. And we asked Pat to communicate with the


 1 district attorney's office, that we were here, we

 2 would meet with them right now if they wanted to.

 3 But let's get this thing figured out. And,

 4 frankly, in listening to Pat say what I wanted to

 5 say over the phone, I could see that there was a

 6 filtering going on, not intentionally, but a

 7 filtering of my emotions. And so I sat down and

 8 wrote the letter and I said to Brian, I said,

 9 (Here, you either deliver this or tear it up, but

10 don't change it.̃ And he called me about a week

11 later and said, (Well, I just delivered it.̃ And

12 that's how the letter came about.

13 LOU SMIT: Okay. I would like to ask you

14 just a little bit. It seems to me like the letter

15 indicates that this is a 100 percent commitment on

16 your part?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

18 LOU SMIT: What limitations do you have on

19 that? Are there any limitations that you're

20 putting on this?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: None. We want -- as long as

22 we are working with an objective investigation,

23 there are no limitations.


25 LOU SMIT: So we can contact you at any time?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely, as far as I'm

 2 concerned.

 3 LOU SMIT: Have you talked to Bryan

 4 about this? I'm mean this has always been a

 5 problem. What's been happening is that, we want to

 6 conduct an investigation. We go through the

 7 lawyers at the District Attorney's office. We're

 8 obligated to always go through an attorney if a

 9 person is represented by an attorney.

10 We cannot even contact John or Patsy

11 in person without going through attorneys. And by

12 the time it gets from two of our attorneys to four

13 of your attorneys, and a decision is made and

14 comes back, a great deal of time is expended. And

15 I'm not saying that it has to be that way. I'm

16 just saying, is there a way that we can streamline

17 this process. Because there's going to times,

18 especially if we're working in the intruder

19 theory, that we're going to want to just make a

20 telephone call. I know, because of this and the

21 focus of that's on this case, that's a very

22 difficult thing to do. And I know that lawyers

23 want to protect their client.

24 A lot of times I may come up with a name or one of

25 the investigators may come up with a name. We just


 1 want to say, (John, do you know who this is?̃

 2 (No.̃ I don't know what can be arranged. That's up

 3 to the lawyers and people to do. But, John, I

 4 don't know how you feel. But then --

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I --

 6 LOU SMIT: -- I'm not going to advise you

 7 on that. But I'm just letting you know.

 8 BRYAN MORGAN: Let me say this much. And I,

 9 I want to spare everybody a long speech. But, I

10 take it that at least you, Detective Smit,

11 understand why we truly do not believe that we

12 have any confidence in the Boulder Police

13 Department. When we have given leads to the

14 Boulder Police Department, those leads have been

15 turned around and used to poison the well against

16 us. With the people that we have good faith said,

17 (You at least should consider looking into . . .̃

18 and I (INAUDIBLE) but I won't.

19 So, what I would do, and John follows his

20 own lead. It was John who wrote that letter; it

21 was not with my prompting. And he did it because

22 of the frustration he felt at not being able to

23 communicate. The background of that was, we had

24 made an offer to Commander Becker to sit and talk,

25 and the offer was essentially rejected unless it


 1 could be this, that and the other. And that was

 2 not what John had in mind.

 3 I will put it this way. Let us see how long

 4 we go this week. Let us see and make our own

 5 judgment at the end of it (INAUDIBLE). What was

 6 happening and what sort of investigation is being

 7 run. And then I will talk with John, and John, as

 8 always, will do what he sees fit. We do not want

 9 to put impediments in the course of any sort of

10 conversation of the type you described: (John, do

11 you know this person? Can you tell us anything

12 about this subject, this object?̃

13 We don't want to put blockages there, but,

14 because half of everything we talk about winds up

15 being printed in the press and turned against us

16 in half-truths. We have a long history of being

17 very skeptical; not at you and not at the district

18 attorney's office. Let's see if we can get over

19 it. I say let's go through the next several days

20 and we'll see where we are.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, you know, we would

22 -- the last thing in our mind on December 26th,

23 was that we would be considered suspects. It was

24 hard for us to believe that we were considered

25 suspects. We accepted that and there's been a


 1 countless number of instances where believe not

 2 only were we suspects, but we were hunted

 3 suspects. And these fellows, frankly, in my mind

 4 were there to protect us as citizens and protect

 5 our rights.

 6 I would love not to have attorneys and

 7 let's get on with this and figure out who did

 8 this. And I'm encouraged that the investigation

 9 that has started now, started with the meeting

10 with Burke and Dan Schuler and Pete Hofstrom is

11 the start of what should have happened 18 months

12 ago. And so I'm very encouraged and look at this

13 as a fresh start, I guess. It should have happened

14 18 months ago.

15 Frankly, if we're wrong, we owe a lot of

16 people an apology. But our view is that the

17 cruelty that was willfully imposed on us and our

18 family by Boulder police was only exceeded by what

19 the killer did to us. And that's our perspective.

20 and so that's behind us, let's move forward and,

21 you know, we've said it, we said it for 18 months

22 that, you know, we'll be here 24 hours a day if we

23 need, if that's helpful. So, I mean that's how I

24 feel.

25 LOU SMIT: Well, you know, it just seems


 1 what the public perception of it is: is that you

 2 offered to do this in the past, to come in and to

 3 talk. And then all of a sudden you don't talk. For

 4 instance, like that CNN interview, for instance

 5 where you said you'd be in --

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: And we came back to Boulder

 7 and it was extremely difficult. Patsy, as we came

 8 over that hill coming down the valley, Patsy broke

 9 down in tears. We almost turned around and went

10 back to stay in Denver. But we were coming back to

11 help with how, you know, what we could help with.

12 And we sat down with Mike Bynum the next morning

13 and he said, (Look, there's something you aught to

14 know. Here's what the police are doing. And they

15 refuse to release your daughter's body for burial

16 until you came in for an interrogation.̃ And he

17 was in tears.

18 LOU SMIT: Now this was after June?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: This was after June. He said,

20 (I took care of it.̃ He said, (We had a lot of

21 shouting matches and it was taken care of. But you

22 need to understand these people are not your

23 friends.̃ So we kind of sat back and said, (whoa.̃

24 And that set the or reset our perception against,

25 I guess, of what was really going on. And so, then


 1 we offered -- I remember once offered -- we were

 2 in very bad shape. We were in shock, we were on

 3 medication. We went to bed at 6 o'clock at night.

 4 And we offered -- until we finally worked out

 5 we're okay. We're going to come in Wednesday

 6 morning when the police came back and said, (No,

 7 no, no. Six o'clock Friday night we want you to be

 8 here alone.̃ We're not even capable of holding a

 9 conversation that time of day. And it was, to us,

10 very obvious what they're trying to do.

11 And so this whole arena of trust just went

12 from, frankly, total trust on the morning of the

13 26th to zero trust by two weeks later. And it

14 never has gotten any better. And so it's been very

15 frustrating for us as we look at our daughter and

16 the life of the precious child that was lost and

17 we're dealing with all this pettiness. And then

18 one detective said, (Well, you know, there's a lot

19 of careers on the line here.̃ And my answer was,

20 (Careers? I don't even care about careers. And

21 that's the problem. Your motive is wrong.̃

22 But, you know, we've been hurt as much as

23 we can be hurt. Nobody can hurt us anymore. And

24 we've been hurt. Let's sit down and figure out who

25 the heck did this. But we never could seem to get


 1 to that point where there was an honest effort on

 2 both parties' parts.

 3 LOU SMIT: You know, gentlemen, I know this

 4 is going to be a tough question. I'm kind of

 5 winging it here. But some people even say that no

 6 matter what, a parent would come in. even if you

 7 were feeling bad. How do you answer that?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: We've made lot's of offers to

 9 come in. the day after the 27th they came over the

10 Fernie's where we were staying, in horribly bad

11 shape. I slept on the floor that night and then we

12 did well to get up the next day.

13 The police came in and we sat and talked with

14 them. They said, (Well, you know, we really want

15 you to come down to the station for an interview.̃

16 We said, (Look, we will talk to you the following

17 morning. But we can't leave this sanctuary, this

18 home.̃ It was just beyond our mental capacity to

19 get up, get dressed, go out into the media frenzy,

20 which was starting to develop.

21 And there's always been that offer on our part.

22 And it was always rejected in the condition, in

23 such a manner that we said, look, these people are

24 up to no good as far as we're concerned.

25 So, yeah, if could have called out the National


 1 Guard, I would have, if it had been in power. That

 2 was my first reaction that morning. Let's close

 3 the airport, let's put up roadblocks. What we got

 4 to do here? But I finally just lost total

 5 confidence in the Boulder Police. There's no

 6 sense. We stared our own investigation last summer

 7 because we, we didn't think anybody else was

 8 investigating the crime.

 9 MIKE KANE: John's attorney said there were

10 certain conditions and they were put on. What

11 conditions are you talking about specifically so

12 we can --

13 JOHN RAMSEY: By the police?

14 MIKE KANE: Yeah.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, on the 27th, they said,

16 (Well, we want you to come to the police station.̃

17 We said, (We're mentally not capable.̃ Our family

18 doctor was there. He said Patsy was in no

19 condition to leave this house. They said, (Well,

20 we've got to have you come to the police station.̃

21 I said why, he said, (Well we have records there

22 we want to pull out and look at.̃

23 And we said, (We can't. If you come here we'll

24 spend as much time as you want. But we physically

25 cannot be there.̃ And that's when Mike Bynum


 1 stepped in and said, wait a minute, time out. And

 2 he was there delivering food; he's a friend of

 3 mine and he happened to be an attorney and he

 4 smelled a rat, frankly.

 5 LOU SMIT: Now this was while you were at

 6 Fernie's?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

 8 LOU SMIT: Is that the first time that you

 9 contacted the lawyer, that they contacted you?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: He was there. He was bringing

11 food over from Pasta Jay's, and just happened to

12 be there when the police were trying to haul us

13 down to the police station, and he said time out.

14 He took me inside and he said, (John, there's some

15 things going here. Would you allow me to do what I

16 think is necessary?̃ and I said, (Of course.̃

17 LOU SMIT: And what did he do, John?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember, but you'd

19 have to ask him, I guess. But I suspect what he

20 did is take the police aside and say, stop. You

21 cannot do what you're doing to these people. And

22 he arranged to bring Bryan in and Pat and were

23 just kind of on autopilot there. And frankly,

24 skeptical, why did we need to do this.

25 But as time went on we became more and more


 1 confused of what the police trying to do. They

 2 were trying to put a square peg in a round hole,

 3 and we're the square peg. And, you know, it was an

 4 extremely frustrating time for us. It still is.

 5 Cause we know we didn't do it; there's a killer

 6 out there.

 7 LOU SMIT: Well, right now, John, it sounds

 8 a lot to me like you're kind of letting go of the

 9 lawyer and coming down. It's almost like starting

10 over. It just seems to happen, just in your own

11 words, how you explained that.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I would love not to have

13 attorneys in the middle of this. In fact, as long

14 as we are considered suspects in the murder case,

15 I got to have an attorney. That's the way I look

16 at it. That's always kind of been my guideline. If

17 it was said to us in January, (Look we don't

18 really think you are suspects,̃ I would have no

19 need for an attorney. But that's, you know, the

20 police said we're under an umbrella of suspicion.

21 Frankly, I think if they were honest about it,

22 they should say we're their number one suspect and

23 there are no other.

24 That's what we believe. Now, if we're wrong, we're

25 horribly wrong. But given that, and that's our


 1 belief, you know, having guidance, I guess, in

 2 this whole area to protect us is important. You

 3 know, we've had detectives come in. They came in

 4 one morning into my son's apartment, college

 5 students, and barged in and, (we want to talk to

 6 you boys.̃ And they said, well one of the kids

 7 said, (Well, gee, I need to call my dad and maybe

 8 talk to his attorney.̃ The detective said, (Well,

 9 innocent people don't need attorneys.̃ And what a

10 slam, you know.

11 LOU SMIT: That is, you know, that's the

12 perception that (INAUDIBLE) have.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's -- the law in the

14 hands of bigots is a dangerous thing. And,

15 frankly, that's what we have here.

16 LOU SMIT: If I might just make a couple

17 comments on that. You know, I've been here like

18 for 16 (INAUDIBLE) and it appears as though the

19 investigation focuses on two areas: the Ramseys

20 and on an intruder.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

22 LOU SMIT: And I know that a lot of work

23 has been done in regards to you. But see, John, I

24 have to stick up for the Boulder Police Department

25 a little bit. I don't know what all personally


 1 went with you. But they initially focused on you

 2 because of certain things that happened in the

 3 house and that they found. And you were in the

 4 house. So, as a detective, I myself would have

 5 probably have done that. I would have probably

 6 said, (Wait a minute, I got to put you on the

 7 front burner, John.̃ And I gotta do that.

 8 So, in fairness to them, I think that they

 9 started off doing what detectives do. They take

10 the most logical thing that's happened. You were

11 there; there were strange circumstances that

12 occurred and we'll get into these here a little

13 bit later. And so they would focus on you

14 initially. And I would. I'd do the same thing. And

15 I'd concentrate my investigation on you. And

16 really, what detectives do, they aren't supposed

17 to make judgments. What they are supposed to do is

18 to focus on an area of the investigation and

19 collect and record information. That's what

20 detectives do. That's all we're supposed to do.

21 Then we're supposed to take this information to a

22 prosecutor or to other people that evaluate this

23 information. And then they make a determination as

24 to whether there will be charges filed.

25 So really, as detectives, even on the Boulder


 1 Police Department, that's what they were doing

 2 initially, is gathering information. And, sure,

 3 they gathered a whole lot of it. And, John, on

 4 this area, there's going to be way more

 5 information gathered.

 6 But that's how I would look at it. It's

 7 information. I'm not going conclude that you're

 8 guilty because of this. And I'm not going to

 9 conclude that an intruder is guilty. I'm going to

10 collect information and then let other people

11 evaluate that. What do you say to that?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: We are comfortable with that.

13 We never objected to being looked at. We

14 understand that, logically, we were in the house.

15 Okay. We accept that in an objective

16 investigation. What became concerning to us is,

17 our investigators, you know, had a tip line;

18 they'd get calls, you know. I tried to call the

19 Boulder police for five days for a month. They

20 won't return my call. I have a lead, you know. I'm

21 anxious to tell someone.

22 I lost count of the number of times that happened.

23 It started to occur to us that they're just

24 blowing off the other inputs on this. You know,

25 they're so focused on the Ramseys that nothing


 1 else is getting looked at. We said early on,

 2 (Look, you're spending too much time on us. Look

 3 elsewhere as well and we'll be fine.̃ But we never

 4 got comfortable that there was anything going on

 5 but a 100 percent focus on the Ramseys.

 6 LOU SMIT: No, John, just from looking at

 7 the case report, and again, in respect of the

 8 police department, they have looked into other

 9 areas. I know that there's been a lot of focus on

10 you, but I looked at every one of those reports.

11 There's been a lot of work done in other ways. And

12 I know from your perception it seems like that --


14 LOU SMIT: -- but they have done a lot of

15 work.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, and I say, we may be

17 totally wrong and owe a lot of apologies, but what

18 I want to do is just frame what our perception is

19 so you understand.

20 LOU SMIT: Well, when you're through being

21 put under the microscope with inspection, it will

22 point to what actually happened. The microscope

23 can't lie. But the person that looks through it

24 possible can interpret it different.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we know a lot of effort


 1 has been put into this and we're grateful for

 2 that. And, you know, I sometimes find myself

 3 thinking, (Gee, those guys are working their butts

 4 off and we're criticizing them.̃ But then

 5 something will come up which will just confirm our

 6 suspicions. And so we've never been able to get

 7 over that trust area.

 8 And I don't mind having -- we've got nothing to

 9 hide. They can look at anything and ask us

10 anything and, that's always been our position. But

11 I guess there's got to be a level of trust in the

12 objectivity of the -- in the relationship, I

13 guess, with the investigation. I've never done

14 this before.

15 It's very hurtful to have be what you thought was

16 a very good parent and a loving parent, and then

17 to have lost a child, and then to be accused of,

18 at least, accused by inclusion in the suspect

19 list, of hurting your child. It's beyond anything

20 you can comprehend was possible.

21 LOU SMIT: How is Patsy doing?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy is doing pretty good.

23 She's, as she said, very well. She's been hurt as

24 much as she could be hurt. So there's nothing else

25 that anybody can do to her that would hurt her


 1 anymore than the loss of JonBenet. So we can take

 2 a lot of blows once you've taken a big one like

 3 that.

 4 LOU SMIT: Okay. If I can continue this a

 5 little bit here. Bryan, do you have any comments

 6 you would like to make in regards to that? I mean

 7 --

 8 BRYAN MORGAN: I have a lot of comments

 9 I'd

10 like to make about how this attitude came about.

11 But, frankly, I don't think that's productive.

12 LOU SMIT: Okay.

13 BRYAN MORGAN: I'm happy to document the

14 reasons why we acted the way we did. I seriously

15 doubt anybody running a professional investigation

16 would have done the media lakes that still occur.

17 And I'm not convinced people are just gathering

18 information and trying to give it to the district

19 attorney. I think they're still fighting a media

20 war (INAUDIBLE) side just to try to get the

21 district attorney's office to file charges.

22 So, I'll leave it at that.

23 LOU SMIT: Okay.

24 BRYAN MORGAN: I don't think that's the way

25 you operate. And we'll go forward.


 1 MIKE KANE: Yeah. And, for the record, the

 2 investigator is biting his tongue through all of

 3 this.

 4 BRYAN MORGAN: Never mind. Let's go, let's

 5 go. They need to talk to this man, not us.

 6 LOU SMIT: Okay. Let's -- if we catch the

 7 person that did this, if we catch the killer, and

 8 we've never lost confidence that we can, we're

 9 going to need to prosecute him or her. And we do

10 want a conviction on this person. And we want him

11 punished as payment for that horrible and brutal

12 crime they committed. And do you agree with this?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: One hundred percent.

14 LOU SMIT: First of all, the defense most

15 likely would be that you and patsy are the, if we

16 catch him, that you and Patsy are the ones

17 involved in (INAUDIBLE). And I think that's

18 probably going to be (INAUDIBLE) if we do catch

19 this guy. And they may think that we can't

20 eliminate you as a suspect. So, for that reason

21 alone, we must take steps now to prove your

22 innocence.

23 And I know one thing about investigation: it

24 shouldn't only be used to prove guilt, but

25 innocence as well. And that's why we need all of


 1 the help that you can give us. Now, we cannot

 2 actively pursue and convict this individual if you

 3 and Patsy are in the way of the investigation.

 4 We've got to get past you, and the sooner the

 5 better.

 6 For the past year and a half, you and Patsy have

 7 been in the picture. In fact, you have been the

 8 picture. There's been very little room for anyone

 9 else. This procedure is not going to be easy. What

10 we're going to be going through, even at the

11 district attorney's office. In fact, you may

12 perceive it, even though it seems like you have

13 trust and confidence in us, that it's going to be

14 harsh, cruel, insensitive, uncaring and demeaning.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I trust you objectivity and

16 your experience.

17 LOU SMIT: Okay.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: That's what I trust. And that's

19 all we've ever asked for in the investigation.

20 LOU SMIT: But you may feel this.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: That's fine. We put ourselves

22 up for that.

23 LOU SMIT: If you think you were under a

24 magnifying glass with the police department, you

25 better be aware that you'll be place under more


 1 scrutiny now. You'll be looked at under a

 2 microscope, like I mentioned before, by the

 3 prosecutors.

 4 My role, as I see it, is to work towards

 5 investigating the case and collecting and

 6 recording information. Mike Kane, even, was hired

 7 to look into the grand jury proceedings. He and

 8 others involved in the case will take a fair look

 9 at all of the information obtained, and will look

10 very closely into all aspects of the case.

11 We will both be asking questions in different ways

12 in our own areas from now on. In our discussion,

13 Mike emphasized that he will look, not only into

14 family involvement, but he'll look into the

15 intruder aspect of it also. In many instances it

16 will seem that we're concentrating only on you and

17 Patsy. And in some cases we will be. However, not

18 necessarily to convict, but also to prove

19 innocence. And that's what I mentioned before.

20 When everything is completed, the truth should be

21 evident and you should be able to go on with your

22 lives in a fairly normal way.

23 Now, Mike, do you have anything to day at this

24 time?

25 MICHALE KANE: I do. Mr. Ramsey, I'm somewhat


 1 new on the scene here. We've never been

 2 introduced. But I just wanted to say, I mean from

 3 a prosecutor's perspective, I come into this as a

 4 lawyer and probably not even just as a lawyer, as

 5 a prosecutor with a different mentality.

 6 Investigators go out and dig up leads and

 7 information.

 8 I always think in terms of down the road. I'm sure

 9 Bryan is the same way, when you're evaluating

10 things, you're think: how is going to be in court;

11 how is this going to play out. And so it gives me

12 from a different perspective in some regards.

13 The one thing that I wanted to emphasize, and with

14 what Lou has been saying is that, let's

15 (INAUDIBLE) down the road that someday there's

16 evidence that develops against an individual in

17 your home that night. And enough evidence develops

18 that we can file charges against that individual.

19 And, in short of some kind of confession or

20 whatever, we have to go to trial and prove that

21 person's guilt. There is no question, and you've

22 seen it because you've lived with it for a year

23 and a half, there is no question that the defense

24 is going to be, (It wasn't my guy. It was the

25 people living in the house.̃


 1 And, of course, as a prosecutor, our goal is to

 2 prove guilt of that individual beyond a reasonable

 3 doubt. And the flip side of that is, that the

 4 defense only has to suggest to create a reasonable

 5 doubt that maybe you were involved.

 6 And so from my perspective, and I think Lou and I

 7 talked about this since the day I came in, and

 8 everybody in the D.A.'s office, I think, looked at

 9 it the same way. In fact, as Lou said, we have to

10 prove -- if we're going to prove it's an intruder,

11 we have to prove your innocence.

12 And what that means is, is that a defense attorney

13 is going to go after you with a lot of very tough

14 questions to suggest that reasonable doubt. That

15 means I have to do the same thing. Because I have

16 to know the answers before any defense attorney

17 brings them up in the trial.

18 So I just want you to understand that, if I ask a

19 question, and I read your interviews with the

20 police department before. I know how it can get

21 uncomfortable if you get (INAUDIBLE). Would you

22 please try to understand, I'm going to ask a

23 question because I'm going to play the role that a

24 defense attorney is going to play and I just have

25 to hear what the answer will be.


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that's an interesting

 2 perspective. It's one I hadn't even thought about

 3 is. I mean, my hope is that, you know, this person

 4 is caught and they confess, and that's it. And

 5 there's some --

 6 MIKE KANE: I mean --

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: -- some piece of evidence that

 8 confirms their confession and off we go. But I

 9 never thought of that scenario, frankly.

10 MIKE KANE: Well, let me just add. So

11 truthfully it becomes absolutely -- you were in

12 the Navy. And there's a term -- I was never in the

13 Navy, but I know that there's a term called

14 (quibbling̃, and you know what quibbling is?

15 Technically true, but misleading.

16 So it's very important to not only give the truth,

17 the technical truth, but there's no quibbling

18 about it. But if something doesn't fit, but it's

19 the truth, just tell us the truth and we'll deal

20 with that.


22 LOU SMIT: You know, Mike also has assured

23 me in many discussions that we've talked about,

24 that there will be a two-way investigation.

25 Definitely. In other words, investigations that we


 1 can cover the aspects he just said and also into

 2 the intruder. So, he has assured me that, and

 3 thank God we can do more on that, maybe no. I

 4 don't know. I think we can. Part of the thing I

 5 want do with you while you're here is, I've got a

 6 tone of leads that I would like to discuss with

 7 you.

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Wonderful.

 9 LOU SMIT: And it won't be coming right away,

10 but that's why I didn't know how much time you had

11 to spend with us.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: We're here indefinitely as

13 far as I'm concerned. So, you know.

14 LOU SMIT: Would you like to take a little

15 break or anything or are you just --?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I'm fine. If this would

17 have been said to us 18 months ago, it would have

18 been a whole different picture, frankly. So, I

19 mean, I'm frankly, I would love to not have

20 attorneys. I mean, first of all, they've depleted

21 most of most of my life savings. But, to say

22 regretfully, I concluded that they are necessary.

23 LOU SMIT: We'll get on it (INAUDIBLE). We

24 have to proceed, because it's just too important

25 for us to --


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Well anyway. You know,

 2 I think about all the man-hours and the focus and

 3 the sacrifices I know you've made to find this

 4 killer. And, on behalf of JonBenet, thank you.

 5 LOU SMIT: I appreciate that. And there

 6 has been a lot of others that have done the same.

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I know. I know that.

 8 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) detectives in court

 9 themselves --

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I know they have. I know they

11 have.

12 LOU SMIT: Okay. We'll restart at 20 till

13 10 and we'll just kind of continue on with this.

14 But it's going a lot quicker than what I thought

15 and that's real good.

16 Now we have amassed pages and pages of questions

17 and from all kinds of sources, and there's almost

18 too many questions to handle, even at this time.

19 It's just that people have come in, the Boulder

20 Police Department has come in and they have

21 experts that supplied us with questions. They knew

22 were coming in today. And so we got questions from

23 a lot of different areas. And some of them are

24 hard questions; some of them are just normal

25 questions. Some of them we're going to have to


 1 ask, the majority of them. There are certain

 2 questions that I'm sure that we won't be able to

 3 do that.

 4 That's part of this procedure. You're here and we

 5 can do this at this time. It seems like they need

 6 most of the information. So we'll just go from

 7 there. And I don't know if I said this before, but

 8 it's our job to prove innocence, not yours.

 9 You know, I was going to ask you if there was any

10 place you would like to start this because I want

11 you to feel comfortable in this interview.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I think I wanted you to

13 know our perspective, which I think we talked

14 about. So where (INAUDIBLE) start is fine.

15 LOU SMIT: Okay. Did you have any specific

16 questions about certain things in the case or

17 evidence (INAUDIBLE). There's some things I give

18 answers to and there's some things that I can't.

19 But I'll try, within certain limits, to answer

20 your questions too. But I'd appreciate if you

21 would kind of hold them until a little bit later

22 and we'll see what we can do about that.

23 And we're just going to just start. This is right

24 off the bat, John. Give us your thoughts and

25 feelings as to what happened to your daughter that


 1 night? Personal. Any kind of thoughts.

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, you hope that she didn't

 3 suffer. And if I let myself think beyond that,

 4 it's too difficult. But my hope is that she didn't

 5 suffer. And, as far as (INAUDIBLE) this, I don't

 6 know. Like I have not let myself think about that

 7 too much, frankly.

 8 LOU SMIT: have you or your investigative

 9 team discussed different aspects of this as to

10 what could have happened? Do you have any insight

11 on that? You've been probably investigating this

12 for, you know, the length of time that we have. I

13 mean, if it's not you, obviously it has to be


15 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

16 LOU SMIT: What is your perspective on that?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think, obviously we

18 know it was an intruder, first of all. We spend

19 some time with John Douglas, who is a profiler for

20 the FBI, and he basically said it's someone that

21 you know. It's somebody that's been in the house

22 and it's somebody that's angry with you or

23 jealous. And, you know, we try to put that box

24 around it. We come up and say that we don't know

25 anybody that evil. And so it's very difficult for


 1 us to say, well you know it must have been

 2 so-and-so, because we don't know anybody that

 3 evil.

 4 We were getting to be a little more higher profile

 5 in the community than I was comfortable with. I

 6 thought about security, hadn't done really done

 7 anything about it. But there'd been an article in

 8 the paper a couple weeks before about our company

 9 had just past a billion dollars in sales. And I

10 had this gut feeling when they wanted to do that

11 publicity, that we shouldn't do it. But they had

12 it already rolling and they'd contacted the

13 camera. So I let them go ahead and do it.

14 I don't know if that kind of publicity elevated

15 this in somebody's mind. JonBenet was in a

16 Christmas parade, the December Christmas Parade.

17 In retrospect, after, you know, that was something

18 which she shouldn't have done.

19 One of the things I guess we realized about

20 all this, there's some very nice people. There's

21 some very good people in the world and there's

22 some very bad people. They're around you and you

23 just better be aware of them. And we were naive.

24 We felt we were in a safe community. We thought

25 all people were like us, basically pretty good


 1 people. And that's not true.

 2 So I wonder if those, either of those two events

 3 might have elevated us into the cross hairs of

 4 this maniac. And if they were angry at me, why

 5 didn't they take it out on me? If they were angry

 6 at me, why didn't they take it out on my son? Why

 7 JonBenet?

 8 LOU SMIT: Why do you say (theỹ John?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: (It.̃ I don't feel I have

10 (INAUDIBLE). I mean, I don't know. I mean, I in my

11 mind think that there's one person; one creature.

12 LOU SMIT: Do you have a mental picture of

13 this person?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. I thought about that.

15 Again, that's too hard to think about.

16 LOU SMIT: Okay. And I know, John, that it

17 really hurts to talk about this guy, but that's

18 probably all you've thought about since day one.

19 You must have a mental picture of the type of

20 person this is. I mean, in your mind. I know I

21 have a mental picture of various people that I

22 would look at. But I'm sure you think about this

23 all the time.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, absolutely, everyday. You

25 know. Of course, my first instinct is, it was a


 1 man. Because of some of the similarities,

 2 apparently in Patsy's handwriting, I wondered if

 3 it was a woman. The ransom note seemed childish,

 4 in terms of a young person. I think this person

 5 was very sick or trying to be very clever.

 6 You know, if they really wanted to do this, hurt

 7 us and walk away, why did they go to the trouble

 8 of leaving a ransom note? When Mike Bynum said,

 9 (Thank God they left a ransom note.̃ You know, why

10 is that? And it finally dawned on me what he

11 meant. They left us a piece of evidence. They were

12 clever enough not to leave much else, apparently.

13 I think it's say somebody that's very sick, thinks

14 they're very clever, is playing games. You know,

15 we heard about the two Bible verses, Psalms, that

16 were circled in some book. I don't know, some

17 book or not. I was not told that directly. We

18 heard it through the backdoor.

19 LOU SMIT: You didn't circle Bible passages?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE). They were leaving

21 little clues to analyze this. I think entry was

22 gained through the basement window.

23 LOU SMIT: Why do you think that?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Because the window was cracked

25 open. There was this large suitcase under it, as


 1 if it was used to climb out. That suitcase didn't

 2 belong there. I think the person was in the house,

 3 if not when we got home, shortly after. I think

 4 she was killed that night, versus in the morning.

 5 LOU SMIT: What makes you think that?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well the note talked about

 7 (I'm going to call you tomorrow.̃ And we debated,

 8 it was like tomorrow tomorrow, or tomorrow today.

 9 And, of course, we hoped it was today, you know,

10 the 26th. When I found her, she was -- her body

11 was cooled. Her arms were stiff. And that was it.

12 (INAUDIBLE) that morning.

13 Yet it was ironic that we were home that night. We

14 were leaving the next day for a second Christmas

15 with our older children and then we were coming

16 back from there. And we had bought and paid for

17 tickets on the (Big Red Boat.̃ It was to be our

18 first family cruise, first time we'd ever taken a

19 cruise. The kids were looking forward to that. And

20 it was just our misfortune that we were home that

21 night, or somebody knew our schedule. I don't

22 know.

23 LOU SMIT: See, John, we're going to get

24 into a lot of that, in specifics. That's why I'm

25 glad you're bringing it up a little bit now,


 1 because it's in your mind. And later on we'll take

 2 all of those specific items and we'll kind of go

 3 over it. And then we're going to look at what was

 4 said, and then we may go over them again, because

 5 I that may prompt more questions as we go.

 6 That's why I wanted to kind of just test you

 7 recall and just see how you felt about that.

 8 There's been a lot of speculation by a lot of

 9 people that maybe you didn't know anything about

10 the murder, but maybe Patsy did. I know that's a

11 hard question. It's one of the hard ones I have to

12 ask you. But what do you fell about that?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Monstrous. I mean, Patsy loves

14 both her children dearly. But frankly, she and

15 JonBenet were extremely close and Patsy fought

16 back from Stage Four ovarian cancer, which

17 probably, she had it five years ago, would have

18 been fatal in a few months. She fought back to

19 live so she could be with the children. And I knew

20 that. And she said that later, she said that she

21 was too young to leave those children. That kept

22 her going and it gave her the will to fight to

23 beat it. And she beat it.

24 Plus she's probably the kindest, least

25 mean-spirited person I know. There's not a mean


 1 bone in Patsy's body against anyone, let alone her

 2 children. So, it's just, I mean it's absolutely

 3 out of the question.

 4 LOU SMIT: See, John, I know these are really

 5 tough. And that's why we have to go into them,

 6 because the defense attorney is going to do all of

 7 this in spades and, not only that, but we have to

 8 know the answers to questions which people

 9 perceive. They have their own perception on a

10 question. And it's a lot better to have it come

11 out of your mouth, and we'll bring up these things

12 again.

13 And that's why, you know, Patsy's demeanor,

14 we're going to really go into that. We need to

15 have answers to all of that so that people don't

16 perceive it in a different way. And, again, all of

17 this is information that we're collecting. What

18 better place, than from you? That's what I said

19 since the beginning. You are our best source of

20 information. And here we haven't been able to

21 contact you or do that.

22 So, what do you want to happen to the person who

23 did this?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I thought about that everyday.

25 And there's certainly the Christian side of me


 1 that says, you know, forgive others' trespasses.

 2 But what I've concluded is, that, you know, that

 3 there is forgiveness, but there is accountability.

 4 And this person must be held accountable.

 5 Now, okay, what's accountability? I've gone from,

 6 you know, hang him by the neck until dead in the

 7 public square to put a tattoo on his forehead that

 8 said, (I killed JonBenet,̃ and let him go through

 9 life that way. But that's the rage within me.

10 Sometimes it's just is there, frankly. But, you've

11 got to try to put in the Christian perspective as

12 to what -- how should I really feel.

13 Fundamentally, I would want the harshest, cruelest

14 treatment that our society can put on an

15 individual for doing this.

16 LOU SMIT: Including?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I think, to me, the worst

18 thing that you can do is put a tattoo on his

19 forehead that said, (I'm a child killer,̃ and let

20 him go out in the street. We've had to live with

21 this for 18 months. We'll have to live with this

22 for the rest of our lives.

23 My family, my children, this has affected a lot of

24 lives. Plus, JonBenet's life has been lost. She

25 could have been a significant contributor to the


 1 world and that opportunity is gone. And whoever

 2 did this needs to suffer.

 3 LOU SMIT: You know, you mentioned religion

 4 before. I think even in our past, we briefly

 5 discussed that. Tell us a little bit about your

 6 religious beliefs? And I know this is a personal

 7 thing; I know it is personal to me. If you don't

 8 mind, just kind of --

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I mean, I as an occasional

10 Sunday Christian, I guess, for years. My mother

11 dragged me to church and I went regretfully and

12 reluctantly. And what you find, I think, is that

13 your spiritual foundation is that. It's a

14 foundation that you fall upon periodically in your

15 life. And it's there and it's helpful. And if it's

16 not, you're lacking. Because you're not on all the

17 time.

18 So my spiritual foundation has really grown over

19 the years. I think first, the first blocks were

20 made by my mother who dragged me to church every

21 Sunday. And then when I was divorced, I went back

22 to church and that foundation was there. It was

23 helpful.

24 And then we lost Beth, my oldest daughter, in a

25 car accident, my religious foundations were


 1 shaken, big time. You know, how could that happen?

 2 How could be allowed to happen? This wonderful

 3 child, this person who had so much to give; who

 4 was kind and loving. To be killed in a car

 5 accident, where is this God, this caring loving

 6 God?

 7 But I did a lot of reading, a lot of thinking and,

 8 frankly, my foundations were strengthened

 9 ultimately by that. And when we lost JonBenet, I

10 think the foundation was there and helped

11 immensely and was further strengthened for me.

12 So it's been a spiritual growth. It's exactly

13 that. It's a growing process. You're exposed to

14 people that are ahead of you in that journey and

15 you learn from them, and hopefully help people

16 that are behind you on that journey. It's only on

17 one path; I'm not there yet. But I'm glad to say

18 that I've been growing and that's helped me deal

19 with this a lot.

20 LOU SMIT: You think your religious beliefs

21 are stronger now than what they were before?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely. Yes, they are.

23 LOU SMIT: what's in your prayers at night?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I pray that God will bring the

25 killer to the attention of the police. That He


 1 will be remorseful and come forward and confess. I

 2 always try to be thankful for the blessings I

 3 have. I have three wonderful children that are

 4 still there and need me and support me. And try to

 5 keep that perspective. And praying about it helps.

 6 But I asked a good friend of mind, who's much

 7 further along in the spiritual journey than I am.

 8 I said, (Do I need to keep asking God to find this

 9 killer or is one request enough?̃ And he said keep

10 knocking. So I keep knocking.

11 LOU SMIT: Okay. That's pretty emotional.

12 Have you put any thought into what our respective

13 roles should be from this day forward? If you

14 thought about that, what are your thoughts about

15 that?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, what we want to participate

17 in is an open, ongoing dialog with the sole

18 objective of finding the killer. And if it means

19 that Patsy and I come out here and rent an

20 apartment so we're nearby, we'll do it. I mean,

21 it's that complete of a focus on our part.

22 What I'm anxious for is that this open dialog

23 starts now as it should have 18 months ago. And

24 that we work through the process that we have to

25 work through to get where we all want to get to.


 1 I'm not particularly, even if these guys are great

 2 human beings, I'm not anxious to communicate

 3 through them or have to consult with them when I

 4 try to say something. But I guess I'd just been

 5 convinced by them that it was necessary early on.

 6 But I hope that's changed. I'm confident it has.

 7 So our role is to do whatever we can to assist you

 8 in what you're trying to do.

 9 LOU SMIT: Mike? I've been talking here,

10 Mike (INAUDIBLE)?

11 MIKE KANE: No. I don't have anything to

12 add,

13 I think, at this time. Down the road, like Lou

14 said, we'll probably want to get into more

15 specifics. But for right now, this is fine.

16 LOU SMIT: You know what? Just a thought

17 popped into my mind, I just wrote a little note.

18 Can you talk about your daughter a bit? Near your

19 nightstand on your bed there was a book on dying?

20 How did that get there and did you read that a lot

21 or what?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm not sure what book was

23 there, but I did a lot of reading after she died.

24 I did a lot of reading about, a lot of books on

25 near death experiences and life after life and Dr.


 1 (INAUDIBLE). And, frankly, it was wonderfully

 2 helpful. In fact, (INAUDIBLE). At that point in my

 3 faith, I guess, I wasn't sure what the big picture

 4 was. And, see you try to really figure that out.

 5 And I read lots of books, and it was helpful to me

 6 to

 7 I mean the worst book I think I ever picked up was

 8 one that was entitled (When Good-bye is Forever.̃

 9 And that's contradictory to what you want to

10 believe. Let's hope it's not forever.

11 LOU SMIT: Is that your Christianity you're

12 talking about?


14 LOU SMIT: And what do you consider the big

15 picture is?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: The picture is that, as a

17 Christian, I believe that there is life in the

18 flesh, there is life on earth and there is a life

19 after death. And if all there was to life was what

20 we got here on earth, what's the point? And the

21 big picture is realizing that there is more of a

22 point to life than being here and just trying to

23 make some money and drive a nice car, and it's

24 over.

25 So I read a lot. And losing Beth was extremely for


 1 me. She was my oldest child. We were extremely

 2 close. She raised me, basically. And I mean I was

 3 just getting to the point where I didn't think

 4 about it a lot. I guess four, four and a half

 5 years later.

 6 LOU SMIT: John, I know that this part has

 7 been kind of you talking and everything and kind

 8 of expressing your thoughts and feelings. And I

 9 think that the next step that I might take is: I

10 am going to go into certain areas of the

11 investigation. And I'm going to go more

12 specifically into those areas. Now, do you guys

13 want to break or you fell like you might --

14 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I'm fine.

15 BRYAN MORGAN: Let's get on.

16 LOU SMIT: We're cranking here. Okay. The

17 first thing I'd like talk to talk about, I'm not

18 going to go way back into your past or anything at

19 this time. And I kind of want to start -- this is

20 shortly before the 26th. I think that the Camera

21 article came out on the 21st. And that's just form

22 recollection from me. And I'd like to ask you a

23 little bit about certain specific things about

24 that.

25 First of all, what do you remember about the


 1 Camera article specifically?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I remember it talked

 3 about us crossing the billion dollar sales level.

 4 I talked to a reporter. I think they had some

 5 quotes in the article from me about (INAUDIBLE).

 6 We had a luncheon party at the Boulderado for all

 7 employees and that's about all I remember.

 8 LOU SMIT: Do you remember who the reporter

 9 was?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. But I've got the

11 article so I can find out. But I don't who it was.

12 I just talked to him on the phone.

13 LOU SMIT: Okay. It wasn't an in-person

14 interview?


16 LOU SMIT: it was just over the phone?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

18 LOU SMIT: Did he contact you or did he --

19 JOHN RAMSEY: No, our public relations

20 girl/lady set up the interview and then handed the

21 phone at the luncheon.

22 LOU SMIT: And who was that?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Joanne Velva, now Joanne

24 Andreason. I think she's still there.

25 LOU SMIT: Another thing that I have written


 1 down here is: on the 21st and 22nd, actually it

 2 was on the 22nd, there was an Amerikids Pageant,

 3 and that's what I have listed in my time line. Do

 4 you remember JonBenet participating in the pageant

 5 just shortly before the Christmas?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, there was one down in

 7 Denver that she participated in. I don't remember

 8 that name. I think it's the one she got this medal

 9 at, this All Stars. But she was in that. Patsy

10 would remember exactly. It was in December some

11 time.

12 LOU SMIT: Did you go to that pageant?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I went to the talent part

14 which is always what I wanted to support JonBenet

15 on, was the talent part of it. So I'd actually

16 gone. Her talent performance was supposed to be at

17 like 3 o'clock and I got there at three and it was

18 actually ahead of scheduled because she had

19 already done it and she had one off the whole

20 thing for talent. And I walked in and she took

21 this off her neck and put it on my neck. She knew

22 that was important.

23 I had always said, you know, you have fun, you

24 know, don't worry about winning or losing but, you

25 know, work on your talent. So that was always kind


 1 of like (INAUDIBLE).

 2 LOU SMIT: Did (INAUDIBLE) go to the

 3 pageants, John?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I would go to some of them,

 5 and I would go to the talent part when she was

 6 doing her performance. But I usually wouldn't go

 7 to the whole thing. That was a mother/daughter

 8 thing they just had. And that, of course, got

 9 blown way out of perspective, I believe. It was,

10 what we thought was a private setting among

11 parents and gave JonBenet a chance to develop some

12 self-confidence and presence, and it was nothing

13 more than something she and Patsy enjoyed doing

14 together.

15 LOU SMIT: Who normally went to her pageants?

16 Was it just Patsy and JonBenet or --

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well sometimes her mother

18 would go. Her sisters would go if they were here.

19 Yeah, just usually Patsy and JonBenet. Because it

20 was usually an all day deal. They'd go in the

21 morning and come back in the afternoon.

22 LOU SMIT: Well, I planned on going a little

23 bit further on in the interview, and that's when

24 we get into the itemized things. Let's kind of go

25 over the pageants a little bit and maybe you can't


 1 answer all my questions.

 2 But you know there's a lot of times I'm sure

 3 JonBenet had certain training and certain people

 4 like coached her and certain people that knew her.

 5 Photographers that were involved with her. Things

 6 of that nature. And, as a detective, that's what I

 7 want to find out. And there's a lot of that in the

 8 report. Don't get me wrong. The Boulder Police

 9 Department really has done a lot of work on that.

10 And I've got a lot of that information.

11 But sometimes there's little pieces of that that

12 you miss. And sometimes you may have some type of

13 an idea or a little thought that maybe somebody

14 was a little off on this. And I'll kind of go into

15 that a little bit later. I'm just more or less

16 trying to generally cover topics at this time.

17 Okay. Now I want to go over -- the next thing I

18 want to cover is: the Christmas party for the kids

19 on the 23rd. now, if you could just in your own

20 words recall what you remember about that first?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, yeah. We had this

22 Christmas party, usually a day or two before

23 Christmas primarily for our family, friends and

24 children. And we invite Santa Claus to come and

25 we'd have presents for all the kids. And Santa


 1 would give them out and hors d'oeuvres and we'd

 2 start early and usually end early. And this year,

 3 we decided, or that year of '96, we decided, well

 4 we weren't going to do that because it was a lot

 5 of effort and Patsy just had her 40th birthday

 6 party and we were kind of partied out. We had a

 7 big birthday party for Patsy.

 8 LOU SMIT: When was her birthday?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had it, it was a

10 surprise party, it was in early December. He

11 birthday is not until the 29th of December, but we

12 had a surprise birthday party in early December.

13 So we kind of decided not to do the Christmas

14 party. I think we were going to ask a friend or

15 two over. (INAUDIBLE). The Santa Claus which

16 normally came called us and said she had got

17 Charles Kuralt here doing a documentary on me and

18 he's been kind of following me around and I'd like

19 him to come to your house, you know, for your

20 Christmas party because I think it's a nice one

21 and it's one of my favorites.

22 And Patsy kind of threw together a Christmas party

23 quickly because she thought that would be fun for

24 the kids. And Patsy is a born publicist, I guess.

25 She enjoys that kind of thing. And so we invited


 1 the regular crowd that always came and we put

 2 together the Christmas party.

 3 And Santa Claus came and passed out gifts and it

 4 was the standard party that we had every year. The

 5 kids decorated. I think they decorated a

 6 gingerbread house that night. Patsy went down and

 7 bought a bunch of these pre-made gingerbread

 8 houses and got big buckets of frosting and the

 9 kids were in the kitchen decorating them. One

10 thing I always wondered was whether it was really

11 Charles Kuralt.

12 LOU SMIT: Who was the person that said that?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Bill Reynolds.

14 LOU SMIT: I've got some pictures and these

15 were taken. There's no numbers on these pictures,

16 and they were taken, I believe right around that

17 Christmas party. And they came out of a camera

18 that was in the house. And you can kind of look at

19 them and then may be point just --

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I can do that. You know,

21 unfortunately, you tend to suspect everyone when

22 something like this happens.

23 LOU SMIT: What I'd like you to do, John,

24 is just kind of look at the photograph and tell me

25 who's in it. And if you can remember when this was


 1 taken and by who.

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Well, of course, that's

 3 myself and John Fernie. I don't know what he's got

 4 in his hand there. Must be some kind a bag. Could

 5 be that.

 6 LOU SMIT: Is that the one where he's also

 7 holding a scarf?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: He's holding a scarf. I guess

 9 it looks like -- Patsy gave all the men scarves.

10 That might have been the scarf she gave him, in

11 which case it would have been as Santa passed out

12 the gifts. She had Santa Claus usually read

13 something to the kids. That's probably what's

14 going on there.

15 LOU SMIT: Well the camera, John, is pointing

16 to a picture of Santa Claus kind of in a pensive

17 mood and Mrs. Claus is right behind him.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

19 LOU SMIT: We're going to go into Santa Claus

20 a little bit later and all kinds of Santa Clauses.

21 Because there was other Santa Clauses involved in

22 these different parties. In fact, there's even

23 indications that JonBenet may have had a secret

24 Santa Claus. Have you heard that in the past?

25 That's come up in our reports. And I'd like to


 1 talk a little bit about Santa Clauses and things

 2 of that nature.

 3 But what was McReyonlds' health about that time?

 4 What was your impression?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, he claimed to be very

 6 frail and the reason that Mrs. Claus came was

 7 because he was so frail. And she struck me as just

 8 kind of there. She wasn't really into it or

 9 particularly open. And I just accepted the fact

10 that she probably didn't really want to be there,

11 but was there because he was so frail that she had

12 to be there to help him. I think that was the

13 first year she ever came.

14 LOU SMIT: Did you ever meet any of his

15 family?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Patsy met him in the mall,

17 quite frankly. He was walking down the mall in a

18 Santa Claus outfit a few years ago. He was passing

19 out candy to the kids. And Patsy's never met a

20 stranger and struck up a conversation and said,

21 (Will you come to our Christmas party.̃

22 (INAUDIBLE) and got his phone number. That was, I

23 think he'd done maybe three, maybe, parties. We

24 had three years worth.

25 LOU SMIT: Did you talk to him personally?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Just at parties. Just in

 2 passing, you know. I didn't talk to him other than

 3 as Santa Claus.

 4 LOU SMIT: How did JonBenet react?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, she was fascinated with

 6 him. Cause she loved Christmas. Kids love

 7 Christmas. And Patsy was, Christmas was the

 8 holiday that Patsy always loved to decorate for.

 9 And, you know she had cancer. And I could tell

10 that she was trying to do everything that she

11 could for the kids while she was here. She didn't

12 know -- she was in remission, but she didn't know.

13 And we never talked about it. But she didn't know

14 for sure that she'd be around when they got to be

15 18.

16 So every event like this was always a big deal and

17 Patsy made the most of it. So Christmas

18 particularly was always -- she really tried to

19 make it a kids' thing. And Santa And JonBenet

20 seemed to -- of course JonBenet was fascinated

21 with Santa Claus, and I'm sure she thought it was

22 the real Santa Claus. There was nothing fake about

23 it.

24 She apparently, the year before or two

25 years before, been given a little bottle of angel


 1 dust which was from Walt Disney as a gift one

 2 night when he was there and I think it was the

 3 summer of '96 he sent us a letter saying that he

 4 was going in for, I think, it was open heart

 5 surgery and, you know, it's a serious operation,

 6 and he was taking this little bottle of angel dust

 7 that JonBenet gave to him.


 9 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. Patsy might know.

10 So, and we were touched by that. That that meant a

11 lot to him.

12 LOU SMIT: Do you know who took these pictures?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I would guess Fleet White,

14 because he was taking pictures. But I don't know

15 for sure.

16 LOU SMIT: Just off the top of your head,

17 do you remember who was there?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. The Fernies, John and

19 Barbara Fernie. Priscilla and Fleet White. And, of

20 course, their children; both the Fernie's children

21 I think were there. Priscilla's sister and

22 boyfriend who's this fellow. I don't remember what

23 his name is, from California, was there.

24 I can look at the picture and remember some people

25 who were there. Say Don Paugh, Patsy's father. I


 1 think that's Glen Stine, Susan and Glen Stine.

 2 There's Priscilla there. I think that's

 3 Priscilla's mother. Her father, I think, was

 4 there. That's Betty Barnhill, I believe, from

 5 across the street.

 6 The Barnhills, somebody came looking for the

 7 Barnhills later in the evening, knocked on the

 8 door. I let him in, he said he was looking for Joe

 9 and Betty, eh was worried about them. I said, well

10 they're in the next room and we invited him in and

11 we made him feel at home. I think we learned later

12 that he was a tenant they had living in the

13 basement. But he was there for a while.

14 LOU SMIT: What do you know about him?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Nothing. I had no idea they

16 even had a tenant over there. That's the first

17 time I had ever seen him. I thought he was just a

18 guest from out of town.

19 LOU SMIT: Do you know his name?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I did. After the facts.

21 I don't know if I'd recognize it if you even told

22 me.

23 LOU SMIT: Glen Meyer?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Glen Meyer, yes. That's the

25 only time I had ever seen him. At the time I


 1 didn't know who he was. I just thought he was a

 2 guest.

 3 LOU SMIT: But didn't you board your dog over

 4 at the Barnhill's?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: We did. They became attached

 6 to him. We had them keep him once or twice and

 7 they really loved him. They lost their dog and he

 8 died and so they really became attached to

 9 Jacques, and it was kind of a good setup because

10 they took care of him and the kids could play with

11 him. So it was, for us, it was, as parents, it was

12 kind of neat.

13 LOU SMIT: So did the kids go over there

14 quite often?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was not uncommon for

16 them to go over there or Jacques would come over.

17 He'd stay with us sometimes and he became

18 increasingly their dog because they were just so

19 attached to it. And we thought it was kind of nice

20 because they were older. It was nice companionship

21 for them. It was kind of neat for us because the

22 kids could still have a dog and we didn't have to

23 deal with a dog 24 hours a day.

24 So, more and more as time went on, he stayed more

25 at the Barnhills than he did at our house.


 1 LOU SMIT: Were the kids developing a

 2 relationship with this fellow, Glen Meyers, do you

 3 think or has that ever been discussed?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: It's never been discussed.

 5 I don't know. To my knowledge anyway. As I say, I

 6 didn't even know he lived there. They had an

 7 apartment in the basement.

 8 LOU SMIT: Had you yourself ever been over

 9 to the Barnhill's?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. We went over for dinner

11 once, I think. We'd stop in and check on them and

12 take him things to eat sometimes. And I think

13 Betty or Joe was sick for a while and Patsy would

14 take them a thing of food and check on them. They

15 were good neighbors.

16 LOU SMIT: See, John, this is the kind of

17 dialog I want. You learn things and quickly. And I

18 don't have to guess. And this is a way that you

19 can really (INAUDIBLE) a lot of information.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Great.

21 LOU SMIT: And I don't know if he's involved

22 in that. Who knows these things. But you gain an

23 insight into relationships.


25 LOU SMIT: And it's great.



 2 LOU SMIT: You don't have to figure out all

 3 this stuff out here. You're giving us information

 4 that you know directly and that's what we wanted.

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely.

 6 LOU SMIT: Okay. Did you go to the

 7 Barnhills

 8 to pick up a bike?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, Christmas Eve. We'd

10 given JonBenet a bike; we got Patsy a bike. We

11 were giving Burke a bike but not that year.

12 Anyway, there was a bike that we put in their

13 basement, and I gone over after the kids went to

14 bed to get it to put it under the tree. And Joe

15 went down to the garage and went down to get it

16 and brought it up. I offered to go get it and he

17 said no, he'd go get it himself. I don't know

18 where it specifically was, whether it was actually

19 in his garage or his basement.

20 LOU SMIT: You know, I've looked at a lot

21 of pictures in regards to this particular case and

22 I can't remember seeing any bikes. What happened

23 to the bikes?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, they were in the garage,

25 I guess. JonBenet rode her bike for a moment


 1 outside before we went to the White's; just round

 2 the patio. I'm sure that went back in the garage.

 3 Patsy's bike, I don't know, it could have gone in

 4 the garage. I don't remember.

 5 LOU SMIT: Have you seen it since, Patsy's

 6 bike?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. We have it.

 8 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) took it?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: No. We gave, Jonbenet's bike

10 we gave away. Patsy's bike we haven't (INAUDIBLE).

11 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) Now you're looking

12 at the bottom photograph, right under Santa on

13 this?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Larry Barber. The Barbers

15 are usually there every year. I don't see Pinky.

16 She took pictures, she was (INAUDIBLE). The

17 Stines, it's Barbara Fernie's mother. That's

18 Priscilla's father. That's Benny Barnhill, that's

19 Priscilla's mother. I don't know who those two

20 people are. Oh, wait a minute.

21 LOU SMIT: What we're looking at to on the

22 photographs, just for the camera: that's a Santa

23 Claus picture. That's the picture with Mr. Ramsey

24 and John Fernie with the scarf. And he was just

25 naming the people on this bottom photograph and so


 1 we correlate some way with the camera later, we

 2 can do that.

 3 It's just that there's no numbers on these

 4 pictures. They were in that folder and I didn't

 5 have a number associated with them. I pulled them

 6 --

 7 BRYAN MORGAN: What were the two that you

 8 did?

 9 LOU SMIT: Any time you have any questions

10 to

11 him, I have no objection if you interrupt because

12 I know that you want to look into this stuff too.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I think that's Priscilla's

14 -- yeah, one is Priscilla's relatives. The husband

15 of Priscilla's -- I think it's Priscilla's sister,

16 her sister's daughter. Patsy would remember the

17 names probably.

18 LOU SMIT: Were they just visiting at the

19 time?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: They were there for Christmas.

21 They stayed at the Whites. This is just kids doing

22 their gingerbread house decorations.

23 LOU SMIT: Just a quick question while you're

24 on that photograph, and let's show it for the

25 camera here. This shows Patsy and then the


 1 children making gingerbread houses. I notice in

 2 the report that for the past years you had always

 3 bought gingerbread houses. And it seems like they

 4 were always a part of your Christmas festivities?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy had one or two

 6 made one year. She did an open house for the

 7 Historical Society. We were always part of the

 8 historical homes tour where they raise money for

 9 the Boulder Historical Society, and our house --

10 we opened our house for that. And she had this

11 really elaborate gingerbread house made by bob

12 Wallace, who did some handy work for her. And that

13 sat on our kitchen that year. I think we actually

14 (INAUDIBLE) to use.

15 But then we put it in a plastic bag, and it was

16 real elaborate. And so I think it got reused a

17 year or two before it finally gave up. But I think

18 this is the first year she had had the kids

19 decorate gingerbread houses. And so they were

20 there, but I think it was.

21 LOU SMIT: Sometimes I'm going to be very

22 spontaneous. Bob Wallace, what kind of work did he

23 do for you?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I think the first time he

25 worked for us he cleaned all the windows. We had


 1 just finished our addition the third floor.

 2 LOU SMIT: When would that have been?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: '94 maybe; 1994 or '93,'94,

 4 somewhere in that timeframe. He was kind of our

 5 handyman. Patsy had him help her decorate for

 6 Christmas several years. I don't know if he made

 7 the gingerbread house or he had one of his friends

 8 make it. I assumed he had the house made.

 9 He did occasional handyman work, but mostly I

10 think it was decorating around Christmas time.

11 Because Patsy always decorated the house.

12 LOU SMIT: In '96 did he do that?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't remember specifically

14 if he did. Probably not. You see, we were leaving

15 town the next morning after Christmas. So I don't

16 recall. We weren't going to have a Christmas

17 party, so I don't think Patsy did a whole lot of

18 decorating. So I don't recall if he did.


20 LOU SMIT: Did he have a friend that would

21 come with him occasionally?


23 LOU SMIT: And I've never been able to

24 locate

25 that friend's name.


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I think that he was the guy

 2 that

 3 did the gingerbread house. I don't know his name.

 4 I don't think I ever did know his name.


 6 or Rubio?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Doesn't ring a bell. I don't

 8 know if I ever knew his name. Or if I did, I don't

 9 quite remember.

10 LOU SMIT: There's a chance that Patsy might.

11 (INAUDIBLE). Maybe tomorrow or whenever we get

12 together again, you can kind of learn that. It

13 just seems to me and, again, I've read so much in

14 this case that sometimes I'm full of information.

15 But it seems to me like I don't know what his

16 sexual proclivity was. But it seemed to me like he

17 was --

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, they were both gay.

19 LOU SMIT: That's what I was trying to get

20 at.


22 LOU SMIT: And that's why I was wondering

23 if he had a gay friend.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: My impression was that they

25 were both gay.


 1 LOU SMIT: Would he give, this fellow, Bob

 2 Wallace, give Patsy advice at certain advice at

 3 certain times, or did they did discuss things? Do

 4 you know that?


 6 LOU SMIT: Do you know if he had a key to

 7 the house?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible. I don't know

 9 if he did. I doubt he did. I don't think that he

10 did. But Patsy, again, would know better than I

11 would.

12 LOU SMIT: Do you know where he came from?

13 I mean, how did she meet this guy?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: That's a good question. I don't

15 recall. I think he was from Denver. I don't know

16 how she ran across him.

17 LOU SMIT: Again, this is the kind of

18 question that I like to sit down and ask you. I'm

19 just a real brief thing. Sometimes we don't know

20 the answer, but sometimes the answers come pretty

21 flowing. And it does jiggle the thought process

22 about it and start thinking. Again, pointing

23 fingers at somebody, I don't do that. But it's

24 nice to have a lead.

25 And this is how you develop the lead; the thing


 1 has to be developed. And whether or not it's the

 2 right guy or not (INAUDIBLE).

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I know.

 4 LOU SMIT: Do you have anything on that,

 5 Mike? Again, Mike, if I'm going over things that

 6 you want to interject at all. Please do, because I

 7 know you have been just reading (INAUDIBLE)

 8 there than I am. So anyway I touched on that just

 9 because his name did come up.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

11 MIKE KANE: Would it be possible (INAUDIBLE)

12 real quickly.

13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: One more thing you

14 might want to talk about -- David, why don't you

15 ask the question because you're aware of this

16 (INAUDIBLE). Cause he work on the windows. Was

17 that your point?

18 DAVID WILLIAMS: Well, yes. My point was: he

19 cleaned all the windows back in '93, '94. There

20 were screens on them at that time. See that's

21 where we (INAUDIBLE) the screens were already off.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: We took the screens off when we

23 painted the house and he would have cleaned the

24 windows after the paint was done.

25 LOU SMIT: When was the painting done?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it was finished just before

 2 that Boulder Home Tour, the Historic Home Tour,

 3 which I think was in '94. And the painting went on

 4 for years. Dominic thought the painter was -- well

 5 she thought he was --

 6 LOU SMIT: And who was the painter?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Jay Pedopiece. The reason

 8 I remember is, when it was over with, he went into

 9 the house just to finish up some last little

10 touches. We were going to be out of town. Patsy

11 told him please close the windows when you leave.

12 And he left the windows open in my bedroom and

13 bathroom. The wind blew hard, blew open the

14 shutters which turned on the faucet and flooded

15 the whole house. About two weeks before this home

16 tour. (INAUDIBLE) coming out the garage doors and

17 I said, (What in the world is that.̃ (INAUDIBLE).

18 So Patsy went crazy trying to put that back

19 together in two weeks.

20 BRYAN MORGAN: Well take a break. It's about

21 a quarter till eleven.


23 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) how JonBenet was exposed

24 during that particular time of her exposure?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: The biggest exposure which, say


 1 in retrospect, would be how stupid could we have

 2 been. But when she was in a children's parade in

 3 Boulder, I think it was December 6th or early

 4 December. And the kids had done it before.

 5 Actually they did it the year before as well. It's

 6 a neat children's parade. All the kids, and kids

 7 love to be in parades, and it just seemed like a

 8 fun thing for the kids to do. There's people

 9 lining the streets up and down.

10 LOU SMIT: Were you there for that?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: We were not; we were out of

12 town. And Patsy's mother was there taking care of

13 the kids, and they had prearranged for JonBenet to

14 go with Pam Archuleta who was, I think at the

15 time, (INAUDIBLE) United Way. So she drove her

16 little red convertible and JonBenet and that other

17 little girl sat up on the back.

18 LOU SMIT: Who was the other girl?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Again, Patsy would know. I don't

20 know her name. But she was one of the little

21 pageant girls from Denver, I think. A dark haired

22 girl. I have a picture of that.

23 LOU SMIT: Okay.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Which I can get for you.

25 LOU SMIT: I think I'd like a copy of that,


 1 if I could.

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. And the car might have

 3 had -- I think Patsy would normally put her name

 4 on the side of the car with a little magnetic-like

 5 pageant clothing. But basically I think it was

 6 like a red Christmassy velvet dress.

 7 LOU SMIT: And was that right downtown? Where

 8 was that at exactly?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it goes down, what is it

10 Walnut, I think. It goes down to Walnut and then

11 it kinds lines around and comes back. It's in the

12 early evening.

13 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) I've got my copy so,

14 like I said --

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, what concerned me

16 afterwards as we started looking into who could

17 have possibly done this is a lot of, as I said

18 earlier, there's a lot of good people and there's

19 a lot freaks out there, and we were just kind of

20 ignorant of that. And she was certainly exposed,

21 occasionally exposed to the freaks.

22 LOU SMIT: And I'm sure that still goes on

23 today. (INAUDIBLE) so you never know (INAUDIBLE).

24 Okay. Let's go back then to Christmas Eve. And you

25 did mention then -- Oh, I want to ask one more


 1 thing.

 2 Pasta Jay's. You went there after what, after

 3 church?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: After church.

 5 LOU SMIT: And who went there?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy and I and Burke and

 7 JonBenet.

 8 LOU SMIT: Okay. Now you know Pasta Jay real

 9 well?


11 LOU SMIT: Because you're business partners

12 with him?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

14 LOU SMIT: Okay. A thought that crossed my

15 mind, and I don't know if -- you used to go there

16 quite a bit?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Lots, yeah.

18 LOU SMIT: Okay. How often would you say you

19 went there?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I'd go there at least twice

21 a week, probably.

22 LOU SMIT: And how often would your family go?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, at least once a week. At least.

24 LOU SMIT: Just as an investigative thought, did

25 Pasta Jay have anybody working for him that may


 1 trigger something in your mind? I know he has a

 2 lot of people working for him.


 4 LOU SMIT: And he would be the one probably

 5 to answer that.

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I didn't really have any

 7 involvement in the day-to-day business. So I only

 8 knew the people that were out in front: the

 9 waitresses and so forth.

10 LOU SMIT: You see, David, my thought process

11 is maybe they met some kook cook or something or

12 somebody that may have quite shortly after or

13 exhibited a strange behavior. I don't know. I

14 think some place where JonBenet would have been

15 out with her family, sort of.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: She was there all the time.

17 And really, she grew up at Pasta Jay's.

18 (INAUDIBLE). The waitresses kind of adopted her as

19 sort of a surrogate child.

20 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) if Pasta Jay or anyone

21 else that we would like to talk to if we have

22 difficulties, please let us know.


24 LOU SMIT: We can do everything we can to

25 get anyone you want over. If we have any degree or


 1 sort of influence or friendship to talk to.

 2 Because a lot of times just going there,

 3 discussing the thing. Because I would like to talk

 4 to Pasta Jay. And we can do anything to facilitate

 5 that. I can do it, John can do it, we will do it.

 6 You see, this is one thing that's going to come up

 7 in this investigation too, is that somehow John

 8 Ramsey or someone else influences other people not

 9 to talk to the police. And what's your opinion on

10 that?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know, we certainly

12 influenced enough talking to the media. I don't

13 know if we ever, I have never, I just don't

14 recollect. I don't think I've ever said, (Don't

15 talk to the police.̃

16 LOU SMIT: I will absolutely guarantee that

17 we have not, at all, and I know the people I'm

18 working with. I know the investigators and

19 lawyers, I've known them for 20 years, and I'll

20 guarantee that we had discouraged no one. I do

21 believe there are a lot of people who consider

22 themselves of John Ramsey who then put off

23 (INAUDIBLE) by the Boulder Police Department

24 almost as we have and I'm quite sure, it would be

25 my guess, that some may have been less than of


 1 forthcoming.

 2 I have asked Peter Hofstrom for months if he would

 3 give me a list of people that you all even talked

 4 to. That you, for some reason, have been unable

 5 to, if there was anything we can do with any of

 6 those, we would. And I don't understand this.

 7 Okay. Because that was one of the concerns with

 8 the grand jury is that people won't talk so. I'm

 9 sure that was a concern of Mike here. How do you

10 get people to speak to you, to talk to you. You

11 just can't go down there an say we want to talk to

12 you and --

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we can. Because,

14 as I said, we are coming into this as this is

15 finally an objective investigation led by people

16 who have a lot of experience in homicides. And if

17 we could help, we will. I think Bryan said all

18 right.

19 LOU SMIT: Okay. I've covered those people.


21 JOHN RAMSEY: Just to backup one step with

22 Pasta Jay. The only one thing I noticed that night

23 that, when we were (INAUDIBLE) there was this very

24 striking couple there with their daughter who just

25 stood out in my mind. And I noticed her in church


 1 and he had very dark hair and she was very

 2 attractive. And I had never seen them in church.

 3 And they look kind of like they were from East.

 4 They were well cared for. They were dressed up.

 5 And they were in Pasta Jay's.

 6 LOU SMIT: Also.

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Also. And they kind of sat

 8 near us in the same room and then they moved to a

 9 table in the other room. And I thought, (Hmmmm.̃

10 LOU SMIT: Is this the first time you thought

11 of that?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I thought about it before.

13 What was that, who was it? I mean it was kind of

14 a, (Oh, I saw those people in church and it's a

15 coincidence that they are in Pasta Jay's.̃ And

16 later I thought, who were those people.

17 LOU SMIT: Were they in a farther row or did

18 anybody know them? Would that be in a signed

19 register?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: No. (INAUDIBLE) it's just

21 a piece of data.

22 LOU SMIT: And you ever seen them since?


24 LOU SMIT: So then Christmas Eve was at Pasta

25 Jay's and then what happened? Just kind of take



 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, yeah. I remember dropping

 3 Patsy off; I couldn't find a parking place right

 4 away. So I parked and came around and they already

 5 had a table in the front room. I came in, we had

 6 dinner, the kids colored.

 7 I think we drove up to -- after we left there I

 8 think we drove to the Star, might have driven a

 9 little bit to look at the lights. JonBenet was

10 miffed because we wouldn't let her walk up to the

11 star because she had on her church dress and

12 (INAUDIBLE) can't walk up there.

13 LOU SMIT: Why did she have on her church

14 dress (INAUDIBLE)?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: It was pretty good. She looked

16 beautiful in church. It was a purple dress. And

17 they wanted to get out of the car, I guess. After

18 we looked at everything, we turned around and came

19 home. The kids went to bed.

20 LOU SMIT: At different times. Sometimes

21 there are different times.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't remember exactly.

23 But it was dark, I remember that. Because the

24 lights were on and I remember the starlight. So if

25 we went to five o'clock church, that would have


 1 been over at six or so. Then we went to dinner and

 2 (INAUDIBLE) somewhere around there.

 3 I don't specifically remember the kids going to

 4 bed, but I'm sure they went to bed fairly early

 5 because they wanted to get up at the crack of

 6 dawn. You know, the normal routine was (INAUDIBLE)

 7 was as soon as we thought the kids were asleep we

 8 got Christmas organized.

 9 LOU SMIT: And how would you do that? What

10 would you do to organize Christmas?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we'd get up, haul the

12 presents and put them under the tree. And a lot of

13 the things were not wrapped so the kids had the

14 surprise when they came down. And we put those out

15 and we got the bike.

16 LOU SMIT: Where would you keep these bikes?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: They were usually in the basement.

18 That was Patsy's department. But I think she kept

19 them in that cellar room. We usually kept all of

20 Christmas stuff in there. Our Christmas trees and

21 lights and that stuff, the trim.

22 LOU SMIT: So you think that somebody would

23 have gone down to get those? Did you go down

24 there?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember specifically.


 1 I mean --

 2 LOU SMIT: Kind of think about that because

 3 that's kind of important. Who was in the basement

 4 close to the time of Christmas.

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well certainly we both would

 6 have been because Patsy did most of her wrapping

 7 down there. And that's where all the present stuff

 8 was stored. So in the process of getting ready for

 9 Christmas that would certainly have been down

10 there and been in there.

11 The only thing I remember is going over to Joe's

12 and getting the bike out of his garage. And then

13 after Patsy went upstairs, I had her bike in our

14 garage and I got that out and put it by the tree.

15 And then I went upstairs.

16 LOU SMIT: So both bikes then were at the

17 tree. You just took the one from Joe Barnhill and

18 put it by the tree?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: And brought Patsy's in from

20 the garage.

21 LOU SMIT: This may not be exactly the

22 time to interject, but did you get a painting for

23 Christmas?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, that's right.

25 LOU SMIT: Tell me about that.


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: It was a painting of some

 2 boats at anchor that Patsy had seen in, I think, a

 3 local art store. It was done by a local Boulder

 4 artist. And she had got me that for Christmas

 5 which were going to take it up to our cottage up

 6 in Michigan. It was behind the couch, I think.

 7 LOU SMIT: Yeah. I was just wondering

 8 where that would have been kept that evening.

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. That's where it was

10 the next morning. I don't know how long it had

11 been there.

12 LOU SMIT: But it's small enough to hide

13 behind the couch (INAUDIBLE)?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: It could have been behind --

15 probably about that high and not quite as wide as

16 that wall. So it was fairly large. And I recall

17 that's where she had it; behind the couch. And

18 then she got that out, that was when Christmas was

19 all over.

20 LOU SMIT: It was wrapped?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. The picture was wrapped.

22 LOU SMIT: I was just wondering, like when you

23 brought the bikes back in and Patsy was already in

24 bed and then --



 1 LOU SMIT: -- I don't know if you would

 2 have

 3 seen something like that?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't see it. So I knew

 5 it must have been there by the couch. That's my

 6 assumption.

 7 LOU SMIT: So you go to bed and you know

 8 the routine? (INAUDIBLE).

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. The kids, of course,

10 were up early. I remember both of them running up

11 to our bed early in the morning to get us up to go

12 downstairs.

13 LOU SMIT: Do you remember what time?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I'd be guessing. It could

15 have been 5:30, it could have been 6:30. It was

16 certainly early. Probably before daylight. I don't

17 remember exactly, but they were always -- Burke

18 came in one time at midnight to get us up one

19 Christmas, it was time to get up and open

20 presents. I looked at the clock, it was midnight.

21 LOU SMIT: That was not this Christmas?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think it was, if I

23 recall. And then I think I had them stay in the

24 bedroom until I went downstairs and turned on the

25 Christmas lights. It's always been kind of fun to


 1 make them wait a little bit.

 2 LOU SMIT: Real quickly, where did JonBenet

 3 sleep that previous night? And where did Burke

 4 sleep on Christmas eve?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think they slept in

 6 their own bedrooms. I don't specifically remember

 7 that. But. Anyway, they come down and we had

 8 Christmas and we usually have a breakfast, which

 9 we did I think that day afterwards.

10 LOU SMIT: What did you have for breakfast?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: It might have been pancakes.

12 Which is usually what we would eat. We would have

13 a special breakfast, but I don't remember exactly.

14 But we usually had a big breakfast.

15 LOU SMIT: Anything else that goes along

16 with the pancakes, or anything that you can think

17 of? I know I'm trying to get specific.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't remember. I mean,

19 it probably been like bacon and probably hash and

20 that kind of things. But I don't remember for

21 sure. But that's typically what we would have had

22 for breakfast. Coffee, juice, orange juice. But

23 that took up most of the morning, I guess. By the

24 time we finished --

25 LOU SMIT: How were you dressed when you


 1 were opening presents?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: The kids, JonBenet had on a

 3 little pink, like a long underwear bottoms and

 4 top. Burke, I don't remember, probably shirt

 5 pajamas. They didn't have time to get dressed.

 6 Probably Patsy and I had on pajamas and robe which

 7 we wore --

 8 LOU SMIT: So real casually dressed?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

10 LOU SMIT: Not like now or?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I'm sure we had on our

12 pajamas and robes.

13 LOU SMIT: Do you remember kind of what

14 the kids got? What she got?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well JonBenet got a bike.

16 I think Burke got a bike too. It seems like we had

17 three bikes there. JonBenet, I think she got a

18 little doll that was one of these look-a-like

19 dolls that was supposed to look like her. I

20 remember her looking at it and saying, this

21 doesn't look like me.

22 LOU SMIT: Was that made specially in

23 a certain spot?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Supposedly, I guess. Yeah.

25 That's a good question. Patsy would know. She got


 1 it. It's one of these -- it's supposed to be a

 2 doll that's made to look like the child.

 3 LOU SMIT: So it's a specially made item

 4 then from a certain kind of store.

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I believe so, yeah. Patsy,

 6 I'm sure, would know specifically where it came

 7 from, the details on that. But I seemed to

 8 remember her holding it up saying this doesn't

 9 look like me. And she didn't.

10 LOU SMIT: And she held it up for you?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: She did.

12 LOU SMIT: And can you think of anything else?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: They always get so much stuff. I

14 guess I don't remember. It's always kind of a

15 little bit overloaded with so many things. I

16 remember she did a little (INAUDIBLE) that night

17 and a little jewelry maker wrapped up in little

18 strips of paper and little beads. I remember

19 specifically playing that with her that evening,

20 Christmas day evening.

21 LOU SMIT: Now let's talk about Christmas day

22 a little bit more. Now, you were going to be

23 leaving for Charlevoix.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

25 LOU SMIT: And tell us a little bit about


 1 the arrangements you were making then?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well the plan was to leave

 3 the morning of the 26th. I had an airplane at the

 4 time that was on charter through a charter company

 5 run by Mike Archuleta, who is also a friend;

 6 became a friend. Mike was going to fly us that

 7 morning of the 26th from Jeffco to Minneapolis. We

 8 were going to get into Minneapolis before 11 and

 9 my older kids were going to arrive from Atlanta.

10 From Atlanta to Minneapolis we were going to pick

11 them up and then go on to Charlevoix.

12 And we did it that way because Charlevoix was a

13 difficult place to get to with airlines. And we

14 were flying from Jeffco to Charlevoix, you fly

15 literally almost fly over Minneapolis. So that

16 would be real easy for us to stop in Minneapolis

17 and pick them up. And they had really inexpensive

18 tickets to get there on the airlines. So that was

19 the plan.

20 They we were going to stay there for I think it

21 was till Friday. I forget what day the 26th was.

22 (INAUDIBLE) but we were going to stay for a couple

23 days and come back to Boulder around Friday. Then

24 I think the next morning on Saturday, we were

25 going to leave for this Big Red Boat trip with


 1 just JonBenet, Burke and Patsy and me. And that

 2 was a package deal. We had tickets on TWA and that

 3 was all kind of pretty pre-laid out for us.

 4 So that was the plan. I had gone out to the

 5 airport Christmas day to kind of tinker with

 6 airplane and load some presents and kind of get it

 7 pre-loaded because we're going to leave early in

 8 the morning. We had to be there, I wanted to be

 9 there when the kids arrive in Minneapolis.

10 LOU SMIT: What kinds of presents did you

11 bring there (INAUDIBLE)?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we were going to have

13 a kind of second Christmas up in Charlevoix for

14 the big kids. And so we had their presents. We had

15 a few little extra presents for Burke and JonBenet

16 so they wouldn't feel left out.

17 So I guess I kind of fussed around that for a few

18 hours and then I came home.

19 LOU SMIT: Where were those presents kept?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well there were some presents

21 in a little, what we call, the butler's kitchen,

22 but it was a lower level kitchen. There were some

23 presents some presents down there. In fact, I

24 think I wrapped some Christmas day to take to the

25 airplane to get ready for the next day. I think


 1 those were there.

 2 LOU SMIT: So when you wrapped them, the

 3 items, you wrapped them, where would you get the

 4 wrapping paper and all the things?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I could have either

 6 gotten it from there or down in the basement.

 7 Patsy had by the (INAUDIBLE) a bunch of wrapping

 8 paper and stuff, and I think there was some there

 9 in the butler's kitchen area as well. I might have

10 even went downstairs to get the paper and stuff. I

11 don't remember. That's where a lot of them would

12 have been.

13 LOU SMIT: I think what I'm trying to get

14 at is, did you go into the wine cellar at that

15 time in order to get any of these items?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. It wouldn't

17 have been out of the question or impossible.

18 LOU SMIT: Try to think about that a little

19 bit. It's just one of those things that we're

20 trying to determine who all would have gone in

21 there into that room at a specific time. That's

22 whey we have to find that out. That's why

23 specifically if you can think about it. I know to

24 sequence your memory is kind of hard. But it's one

25 of those things that I figure you can think about


 1 a little bit.

 2 Just to back up just a little bit. After the

 3 children opened their gifts, do you know what they

 4 did that day, your children?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well they played around the

 6 house. There were some kids in and out, I think.

 7 Because I wasn't there for several hours.

 8 LOU SMIT: And where were these kids from?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Only, I think based -- well

10 I'm pretty sure I saw Evan and Kile, I forget

11 their last name.

12 LOU SMIT: Coby?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Coby. They were there. I don't

14 remember specifically knowing that. But I think

15 Patsy, I heard her saying neighbors and girls from

16 up the street.

17 LOU SMIT: Do you know their names?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. I don't.

19 LOU SMIT: We were trying to determine who

20 all JonBenet or Burke had had any contact. And

21 later on we'll kind of get into those reasons. But

22 right now we have to find out any contact with the

23 children.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I know. Well, there were

25 a number of kids there that day. Our house was


 1 always kind of, kids were in and out of there all

 2 the time and it was usually the Coby boys. There

 3 was a family that lived not immediately next door,

 4 but the house over, that had moved in recently

 5 after the Whites had left the house. I didn't know

 6 them. I think there were a couple of girls in the

 7 house that had come down to play.

 8 LOU SMIT: How about the children like to

 9 the south of you?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Let's see, south. That's --


12 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It's possible. But I don't

13 remember seeing them there. But they were there

14 occasionally. The boy, the son, this is on the

15 house next to us, towards the baseline. Their son,

16 who seemed like a very nice kid, was always

17 attentive to JonBenet in a nice way; a brotherly

18 way, I thought.

19 LOU SMIT: Do you know his name?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't.

21 LOU SMIT: Is it Luke?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Luke? That rings a bell, yeah.

23 That's right.

24 LOU SMIT: Do you know of anybody from the

25 family who always lived next door to the north?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Not a lot. They had a child and

 2 they were divorced after that. He had children

 3 from another marriage; two boys, I think. All nice

 4 kids.

 5 LOU SMIT: And were they around them that day?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember for sure. Patsy

 7 probably would remember that.

 8 LOU SMIT: See, we're trying to determine

 9 the gap of anybody who could have contact, and

10 usually the neighbors and people close and we

11 would just like to have their names.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Again, Patsy would have more

13 information on that.

14 LOU SMIT: Or maybe Burke would have some

15 information on that, I'm not sure. (INAUDIBLE).

16 JOHN RAMSEY: There was a little girl, I

17 think, that lived diagonally across the street

18 that --

19 LOU SMIT: Which way was that?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: This would have been south

21 and east, next to the Barnhills, south of the

22 Barnhills.

23 LOU SMIT: Okay.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was a single mother

25 that rented that house. And I think she had a


 1 daughter or a son, was that a son. Maybe it was a

 2 son. I don't remember. It might have been a boy.

 3 They moved. They would come over occasionally but

 4 not often.

 5 LOU SMIT: What I'm going to do, I'm going

 6 to show you a small diagram. I might have a bigger

 7 diagram which I'm going to bring in after a while

 8 when we get into the neighbors.


10 LOU SMIT: This is a small diagram that we

11 have and it just kind of shows the relationship of

12 houses in the area. It's not to scale or anything.

13 We'd like to just look at it. This is your home,

14 755, and across the street is the Barnhills. And

15 which address were you talking about about the

16 other little girl.

17 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have been this one,

18 738.

19 LOU SMIT: 738?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I think it was a boy.

21 They had a child. She had a child. I think it was

22 a little boy. But that's the house I was talking

23 about.

24 LOU SMIT: Now you say he may have come over?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't know that he did


 1 that day. But I said he's come over once in a

 2 while.

 3 LOU SMIT: Okay, we're still talking

 4 Christmas day. And what time do you think you left

 5 for the airport?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: It was after breakfast. You

 7 know, 11, 12, probably somewhere there. I spent

 8 some time, it was in the Steven's Aviation hangar.

 9 There were a couple of mechanics there and running

10 boys. But the place was pretty well closed down.

11 But I spent some time cleaning it, having it

12 ready.

13 LOU SMIT: Anybody that you talked to or anything?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I spoke to one of the line guys.

15 LOU SMIT: You know his name?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. He was just one of the

17 guys that was there on Christmas day. But the

18 airplane was in their hangar, in the maintenance

19 hangar. Which is not normally where it's kept. But

20 it was there that day. And I just puttered around

21 for a few hours actually. Probably got home about

22 threeish, probably.

23 LOU SMIT: Did you have a run-in with somebody

24 at the airport over the parking of the plane, that

25 I remember reading someplace; some guy that you


 1 had a run-in with at the airport? Could you just

 2 think of that for a little bit?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) I don't remember

 4 that now.

 5 LOU SMIT: I remember something (INAUDIBLE).

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't specifically remember

 7 anything like that.

 8 LOU SMIT: So got home at about three?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

10 LOU SMIT: Now when you walk in right at

11 about at that time, what do you remember when you

12 come into the house? What do you remember in

13 regards to the children and in regards to Patsy?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: It seems like I remember there

15 were some kids around and kids were playing. We

16 were going to get ready to go to the Whites.

17 LOU SMIT: And the other kids?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember that, I think, yeah.

19 It seems like there were some kids around. Kids

20 were hanging around the house.

21 LOU SMIT: And you said you were getting ready

22 to go to the Whites?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

24 LOU SMIT: Now you'd been up all day and then

25 towards noon. Now did anybody have anything to eat


 1 prior to going to the Whites?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think I did have any

 3 lunch. It would have been normal for the kids to

 4 have some lunch. But, again, Patsy would know

 5 that.

 6 LOU SMIT: How about before you went to Whites

 7 later that day?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Not to my knowledge. Then again,

 9 they're always eating. But we didn't specifically

10 sit down and have any kind of meal or a sandwich

11 or anything before leaving.

12 LOU SMIT: You don't remember that?


14 LOU SMIT: Okay. Now, I'm sure you're getting

15 ready to go and how did that normally work? Did

16 you get ready to go out during that particular

17 night specifically, if you can remember just how

18 people had gotten ready and maybe how they were

19 dressed? You might remember how you were dressed.


21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well usually Patsy gets the

22 kids ready before we go out. I get ready and it's

23 always an effort to get the kids ready because

24 they wanted to get dressed up. I think it was she

25 got them dressed up to go over for Christmas


 1 dinner. And I don't remember specifically that

 2 process, but that's what we normally or usually

 3 do.

 4 LOU SMIT: Do you normally take a shower

 5 when you're (INAUDIBLE)?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I always take a shower in

 7 the morning when I get up. (INAUDIBLE) I feel like

 8 a needed a shower, I'll take one in the afternoon.

 9 I don't remember taking a shower. Could be, but I

10 remember doing that. We were just going to go have

11 a nice family Christmas dinner.

12 LOU SMIT: Now, when you go up to the Whites,

13 what time do you think it was that you left your

14 house?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it seemed like it was

16 4:30, 5:00, somewhere in that range, as I recall.

17 It was an early dinner. The kids wanted to play

18 together.

19 LOU SMIT: And when you say (together̃, who

20 is that?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: With Fleet, Junior, Daphne White.

22 And Fleet and Burke were buddies, and Daphne and

23 JonBenet were buddies. That was a nice setup.

24 LOU SMIT: Now later on the evening, I know

25 you dropped some presents off at different places.


 1 And I want to go back to the presents a little bit

 2 again. Someone would have had to load them into

 3 the car. Do your remember anything about that?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't. I don't remember

 5 loading anything.

 6 LOU SMIT: Okay. Which car did you take?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: We took Patsy's white Jaguar.

 8 LOU SMIT: Okay. Now I noticed you had another

 9 vehicle in the garage. What was that?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: It should have been a black

11 Grand Cherokee.

12 LOU SMIT: And whose was that?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: That was mine.

14 LOU SMIT: Did you normally use that for work?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I drove it -- unless the weather

16 was bad, and then we swapped.

17 LOU SMIT: Did you drive it to the airport

18 that day?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I sure did. Yeah. I did.

20 LOU SMIT: Okay. You're at the White's house.

21 Remember what you did there, if you can.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we came in. They had a

23 lot

24 of their extended family there, and their parents,

25 I think, Priscilla's parents were there. Her


 1 sister and brother-in-law. Her sister's daughter

 2 and her husband. I think there was a third sister

 3 there with a boyfriend. A collection.

 4 They had hors d'oeuvres and they made a special

 5 thing about cracked crab, that's some kind of

 6 family tradition that they always had cracked crab

 7 at their Christmas day dinner as an appetizer.

 8 They had that. They had some little gifts for us.

 9 They had given me some napkins for my boat that

10 had the boat name on them. I think that's where

11 JonBenet got that thing that makes the beads.

12 Because we played with that that evening on the

13 floor. I remember that. Pete and I were making

14 these little beads. He was doing it with Daphne

15 and I was doing it with JonBenet.

16 Priscilla gave the kids that at that party. But

17 then they had a typical, you know, in the kitchen

18 cooking the dinner, snacking on hors d'oeuvres

19 kind of evening. And then they had dinner. They

20 had the table set up in the dining room and they

21 had two tables down in the living room and

22 everybody kind of sat down to eat.

23 LOU SMIT: I want you to really specifically

24 to think on what you ate and how things were laid

25 out there.



 2 LOU SMIT: Very much so. I would like to

 3 just know, perhaps, what you ate or whether the

 4 children ate or if it was different or how things

 5 were set up.

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, all I can specifically

 7 remember was the cracked crab. I think they had a

 8 turkey dinner. But I think she made, she always

 9 makes these little hot dogs with barbecue sauce

10 that the kids love. I remember her specifically,

11 Priscilla coming over this big plate of cracked

12 plate making little plates, and I wanted to save

13 these out for JonBenet and she took them out and

14 put them in the plate.

15 LOU SMIT: What were they?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was the cracked

17 crab.

18 MIKE KANE: What is cracked crab? I'm from

19 the east. I don't know --

20 JOHN RAMSEY: She doesn't take all of it.

21 It's like pieces of crab that are cut up. They're

22 cold.

23 MIKE KANE: They're real crab?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. They're boiled like.

25 They're already broken. They're like just chunks


 1 of, like somebody has already broken up the legs

 2 and I guess it was like king crab that was

 3 partially open.

 4 MIKE KANE: Okay.

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: But she specifically, I

 6 just remember her making little plates going down

 7 the line. Which, in retrospect, seems a little

 8 strange.

 9 LOU SMIT: Did JonBenet like that?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember if she ate it,

11 but, yeah, she would have liked it.

12 LOU SMIT: Do you remember any fruit like

13 apples, oranges or anything like tat?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not specifically. I know we've

15 been asked indirectly a lot about pineapple

16 rounds.

17 LOU SMIT: I was going to get around to that.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It wouldn't have been

19 unusual. That would have certainly fit in with the

20 dinner, but I don't specifically remember being

21 there. But I can tell you there was some finger

22 foods. There were probably carrots and celery and

23 stuff like that.

24 LOU SMIT: Okay.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: They usually had peanuts around.


 1 I don't remember specifically having peanuts, but

 2 that would have been very normal.

 3 LOU SMIT: Do you know what Burke was

 4 doing at that time?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I think the kids were just

 6 kind off playing. I think they were upstairs.

 7 Everybody just disappeared upstairs. (INAUDIBLE).

 8 After dinner I think that's when we sat down and

 9 played with the little beads, the bead machine.

10 They were pretty much playing with their toys.

11 LOU SMIT: What time did you get started

12 dinner and what time did it end? I mean that's

13 hard to say? Was it an early dinner?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I'd guess; it purely a guess,

15 but it seemed like it was sevenish probably that

16 we sat down to eat. Cause we were there for a

17 little while before we were actually ate. Because

18 they were preparing the dinner and we had a glass

19 of wine and the hors d'oeuvres. So maybe probably

20 sevenish, 7:30 in the evening we sat down to eat.

21 LOU SMIT: You say you had a glass of wine.

22 Is that normal for you when you went there? I

23 don't mean (INAUDIBLE) alcohol or anything like

24 that.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I'd have of wine and then


 1 dinner, two maybe. I usually don't drink beer

 2 unless it's just to be sociable. But wine

 3 occasionally.

 4 LOU SMIT: And how much would you say you

 5 had that night?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't remember, but

 7 certainly not more than two glasses, and only if

 8 like the glass is not very full. I like to sip on

 9 it. I might have two glasses.

10 LOU SMIT: How about Patsy?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: She wasn't -- she might have

12 had a glass served to her. Whether she drank any

13 at all of it. It would have been unusual for her

14 to drink much alcohol.

15 LOU SMIT: Why?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: She just got real focused

17 on her health, frankly. You know, dying from

18 cancer. And she wasn't into wine to start with.

19 She never drank much.

20 LOU SMIT: Anybody else at the party drank

21 wine or more (INAUDIBLE)?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I remember. It was

23 just a nice quiet family party.

24 LOU SMIT: What time then did you leave the

25 White's party?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we left at about between

 2 8:30 and 9:00. Because I remember trying to get

 3 Burke into bed at a reasonable hour when we went

 4 home.

 5 LOU SMIT: How far is the Whites from where

 6 you live? I know that there is that little time

 7 period in there?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we went from the Whites

 9 to the Walkers to drop off a gift.

10 LOU SMIT: Were they labeled in this diagram?


12 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) would the drive have

13 been from the Whites there?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, six minutes, five minutes.

15 It's not really far.

16 LOU SMIT: Okay.

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably even less. I think

18 the kids and I stayed in the car and Patsy went

19 out to the door. It didn't take very long. Ten

20 minutes maybe.

21 LOU SMIT: Now this may not seem important

22 or anything, the dynamics of things back at that

23 time. You leave the Whites, the children are going

24 to get in the car. Is JonBenet walking with

25 anybody? I mean, describe like how they get in and


 1 where they go or whatever?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I don't remember

 3 specifically getting in. But I know she was, I

 4 mean, it's always a challenge to get them rounded

 5 up and with all her toys and get them detached

 6 from what they're doing and haul them away.

 7 Getting thing out to the car and off we went.

 8 LOU SMIT: Any particular seat arrangement?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well JonBenet sat behind me,

10 as the driver. Burke sat to her on the other side

11 of the backseat. Patsy was in the passenger seat

12 in the front.

13 LOU SMIT: Do you remember how JonBenet was

14 dressed?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: She had on a little top with a

16 silver star on it and a black pair of pants. I

17 don't remember if she had color -- she probably

18 did. I don't remember what color it was.

19 LOU SMIT: How about Patsy? How was she

20 dressed?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: You know I don't remember other

22 than I've looked at pictures of their party and

23 that's my memory. But I couldn't have told you

24 without looking at the pictures.

25 LOU SMIT: And what did the pictures show?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I think in the pictures she

 2 had

 3 like a red Christmas sweater on.

 4 LOU SMIT: These pictures that you have of

 5 the party, are these pictures that the police got

 6 or were these extra pictures?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I think they are the ones

 8 that the police got. I think they were taken at

 9 the White's. I don't think we took any pictures.

10 LOU SMIT: Okay. Did anybody take any pictures

11 that you know that were at the party?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not that I remember.

13 LOU SMIT: Okay. So you drive to the Walkers,

14 that's the first one. And you were driving, do you

15 remember what the road or weather conditions were

16 like that night?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I believe there was no weather

18 because I would've have been concerned because I

19 knew we were flying out the next morning. So I

20 know I wasn't aware of any weather. It wasn't

21 snowing. It was dry. I don't think the drive was

22 bad.

23 LOU SMIT: Did you file a flight plan?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Mike would have done it, yeah.

25 LOU SMIT: did you talk about weather or


 1 anything?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I always watch the weather

 3 channels for the day before we go anywhere just to

 4 get a feel for the flow of things. I don't

 5 remember that I was particularly concerned about

 6 the weather.

 7 LOU SMIT: So where did you pull into then

 8 at the Walkers?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I pulled into the

10 driveway. And it seems like that when Patsy, as I

11 recall, she went in and she stayed a little while

12 like five minutes.

13 LOU SMIT: And she went in to do something?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Just to give the Walkers their

15 gifts.

16 LOU SMIT: Do you know what that gift was?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't at the time. I think

18 it was perfume or something like that. I remember

19 her saying, but I didn't at the time. I thought it

20 was a food (INAUDIBLE) or something like that. And

21 she came back out and we went to the Stines and

22 she had a gift for them.

23 LOU SMIT: Now did you and Burke and JonBenet

24 stay in the car, do you remember?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember.


 1 LOU SMIT: You stayed in the car at the Walkers?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, the Walkers, yeah. I think we

 3 all three stayed in the car.

 4 LOU SMIT: And then you go to the Stines?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 6 LOU SMIT: How far a drive is the Stines?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Two minutes, three minutes.

 8 Pulled up out the front of their house. Patsy

 9 certainly went in, I don't think I did. I don't

10 remember if Burke did or not. I don't think

11 JonBenet did. But I don't remember for sure.

12 It wouldn't have been unusual for Burke to go in

13 because that was his buddy, Doug.

14 LOU SMIT: Did you have a gift for Doug?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I know Patsy

16 probably, but I don't recall. And then we debated,

17 we had a gift for the Fernies and we debated

18 whether we should go over there. But that's

19 probably 15 minutes away and we wanted to get home

20 and to bed. And we didn't know what time we would

21 get back. So we left the Stines and drove home.

22 LOU SMIT: So your concern then was mainly you

23 didn't want to spend that extra time (INAUDIBLE).

24 Why?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was 15 minutes over


 1 there and both the kids might want to go in and it

 2 would have been half an hour, 45 minutes before we

 3 went home. And we had to get up early next

 4 morning. They were tired. They had been up all

 5 day. So we said, well, we'd do that when we got

 6 back.

 7 LOU SMIT: So when you leave the Steins,

 8 Patsy returns or whatever and that's just a short

 9 distance to your house, I imagine. What? Just a

10 couple of minutes? And was Burke asleep at this

11 time (INAUDIBLE)?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: JonBenet, when we pulled into

13 the drive, she was sound asleep because I remember

14 getting her out of the car and she was just out.

15 LOU SMIT: Let's stop here.


17 LOU SMIT: Because I don't want to get into

18 another area before noon. And I'd like to go over

19 these notes a little bit. There's a few think that

20 I think and we can just start again.


22 LOU SMIT: Okay. The time now is approximately

23 five minutes till one. Still on Tuesday the 23rd

24 of June, 1998. And present in the room again is

25 everybody that was here before. And we did break


 1 for lunch.

 2 I think when we left off, John, was when you were

 3 driving into the garage at home. This would have

 4 been during the evening of Christmas of 1996. so

 5 later on what I'm going to have you do is draw on

 6 the diagram where you went in the house and

 7 everything. But for now let's just talk about it,

 8 okay. And kind of walk through it. And I know this

 9 is going to probably get harder as it goes, but

10 we'll get through this at some point.

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

12 LOU SMIT: Now you go home after leaving the

13 Stines. To your knowledge JonBenet is asleep in

14 the backseat and she's directly behind you?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

16 LOU SMIT: You pull into the garage. And just

17 let me, we're kind of going slower through this.

18 How do you get into the garage? I mean, does it --

19 JOHN RAMSEY: We have a garage opener in the

20 car and, as I recall, I think I parked on the

21 right side of the garage. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it

22 was the right side. And the kind of routine was

23 that I took JonBenet out and Patsy took care of

24 Burke. But JonBenet was sound asleep. In fact, I

25 was surprised at how she was because I picked her


 1 up or tried to pick her up and she was just really

 2 out. Because I kind of struggled a little bit to

 3 get her in my arms.

 4 LOU SMIT: Is that a two-door or four-door

 5 car?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Four-door.

 7 LOU SMIT: Okay.

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: And I just remember thinking,

 9 (Boy, she is really out.̃ Because I sort of

10 struggled a little bit. It wasn't graceful getting

11 her out, and yet she didn't wake up. And carrying

12 her up stairs, up the back stairs and lay her on

13 the bed. I don't remember --

14 LOU SMIT: Well let's go through that slowly.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: All right.

16 LOU SMIT: In other words, you had her in your

17 arms? Now do you have a door between the kitchen

18 and the garage there?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

20 LOU SMIT: Did you precede Patsy or did you --

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Gee, I don't remember. That door

22 is normally unlocked because we lock the garage

23 door and then we don't lock that door. And it's

24 kind of, as I recall, it's kind of one of these

25 latch handles so it's easy to open, I think. I


 1 don't remember who went in first.

 2 I had JonBenet in my arms. Her head was in this

 3 arm, and we went in the backdoor?

 4 LOU SMIT: In the (INAUDIBLE) room?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: To the (INAUDIBLE) and up the

 6 little spiral staircase.

 7 LOU SMIT: Where you carried her in your arms

 8 up the spiral staircase?


10 LOU SMIT: Does the garage door close

11 automatically?


13 LOU SMIT: Or was it open for a little while?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it doesn't close automatically.

15 There's a button by the door. Normal practice

16 would have been to close it from the inside at

17 some point.

18 LOU SMIT: Think about this. You had her in

19 your arms (INAUDIBLE)?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember closing the

21 door myself. I only remember carrying her.

22 LOU SMIT: Think about that at some point,

23 okay? Now you do remember going up the spiral

24 staircase?



 1 MIKE KANE: In terms of the button on the

 2 garage door, is it on the interior of the garage

 3 or the interior of the house?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it's on the interior

 5 of the house.

 6 MIKE KANE: So you can be fully in the house

 7 before you push that button?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: I believe so, as I recall,

 9 yeah.

10 So, anyway, I took her upstairs, laid her on the

11 bed. Usually what I would do, and I remember

12 either taking her shoes off or taking her coat

13 off, kind of getting her sort of started and then

14 Patsy took over getting her into bed. I went down

15 stairs --

16 LOU SMIT: How did you get downstairs?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably the back stairway,

18 which is normally how I would have gone up and

19 down. But I'm not really sure.

20 LOU SMIT: But that's from --

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I started to get Burke

22 into bed; get him ready. And he was sitting in the

23 living room working on a toy, an assembly little

24 toy he got for Christmas. And I could see that I

25 was going to get him to go easy. So I sat down and


 1 helped him put it together to try to expedite the

 2 process. So we did that together and it took us

 3 ten or twenty minutes, I guess. And then he went

 4 up to bed. And then we went up to bed. And I think

 5 we used the front stairs (INAUDIBLE).

 6 LOU SMIT: And what time was it that you got


 8 JOHN RAMSEY: It was probably nineish, 9:15

 9 maybe. (INAUDIBLE).

10 LOU SMIT: So you looked for Burke?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Then I got Burke on his

12 way to bed. I guess I must have gotten him for

13 bed, but I don't remember now for sure. But he got

14 in bed, and by the time I got to bed I think Patsy

15 had already been.

16 LOU SMIT: You just go right directly from

17 Burke and came upstairs? Is that what your saying?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I believe so.

19 LOU SMIT: And what is your routine then?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I just got ready for bed:

21 brushed my teeth probably. I did take a Melatonin

22 that night.

23 LOU SMIT: Where do you keep that?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Just in my medicine or in my

25 sink or in the drawer because I wanted to get to


 1 sleep right away, to sleep well, because I knew I

 2 had to get up the next morning early. And I might

 3 have read for a few minutes; I think I did. It was

 4 probably tenish or something in that range.

 5 LOU SMIT: Okay. So now did Patsy precede you

 6 into bed or you did say that she went to bed. Do

 7 you remember saying anything important?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Important? I know that she might

 9 have been asleep. I don't remember saying

10 anything. Patsy is called the sleep queen when she

11 goes to sleep. When she goes to sleep, she gets in

12 bed and she goes to sleep.

13 LOU SMIT: When you normally go to bed, and

14 especially that night, everybody has a way of

15 getting rid of the (INAUDIBLE) they got on

16 (INAUDIBLE). What is your habit of doing that? I

17 mean, what do you remember doing that night?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Normally, and I don't mean

19 specifically, normally I would have changed in the

20 bathroom. Sometimes I would hang the clothes on

21 the hook on the back of the door. We had the

22 laundry chute. If the stuff was dirty I would

23 typically take it to the laundry chute.

24 LOU SMIT: Can you think of anything

25 specifically (INAUDIBLE)?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I really don't remember.

 2 LOU SMIT: No. Did either you or Patsy feed

 3 JonBenet anything before you went to bed?


 5 LOU SMIT: An you are positive?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I am positive. She was sound

 7 asleep. And I certainly didn't and just based on

 8 discussions afterward, and then Patsy said she did

 9 not.

10 LOU SMIT: What does Patsy normally do with

11 her clothing when she gets into bed?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Where it lands is where it

13 stays.

14 LOU SMIT: Oh, I see.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: She usually changes in the

16 bathroom so it's usually draped over the tub and

17 off to bed.

18 LOU SMIT: Now do you put on pajamas (INAUDIBLE)?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Usually. Usually. I don't remember

20 now what I had on, but yeah, usually I wear some

21 kind of pajamas, yeah.

22 LOU SMIT: How about Patsy?


24 LOU SMIT: She wears pajamas also?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.


 1 LOU SMIT: Normally all to bed?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: To bed.

 3 LOU SMIT: And you said the normal procedure

 4 is to brush your teeth and everything?


 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't that night. No.

 7 LOU SMIT: Now let's think throughout the

 8 night. I know you probably thought that a 100

 9 times. Did you hear anything throughout the night?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not a thing.

11 LOU SMIT: Let's talk about the sounds in your

12 house. Have you ever been wakened by your children

13 before at night?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall I ever have been.

15 They would sometimes they would come in the bed

16 with us. But I don't remember ever being awakened

17 by a noise or (INAUDIBLE).

18 LOU SMIT: Would either JonBenet or would

19 Burke ever cry out in their sleep if they had bad

20 dreams?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember Burke used to talk

22 in his sleep. But crying out, no, I don't remember

23 that.

24 LOU SMIT: Could you ever hear Burke talk

25 in


 1 his sleep?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember, no.

 3 LOU SMIT: In Burke's room, does he have an

 4 aquarium?


 6 LOU SMIT: Can you describe any noises that

 7 that makes?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: It just has a normal pump. It

 9 was (INAUDIBLE), it's not particularly noisy.

10 LOU SMIT: How about, in almost every house,

11 especially my house, did you ever hear noises

12 associated with (INAUDIBLE) home noises? Can you

13 remember anything, maybe not that particular night

14 but any other night?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I really can't. I mean we hear

16 noises from -- when we hear noises, it was

17 typically from outdoors from students.

18 LOU SMIT: You can hear that from your room?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: We always slept with the windows

20 open.

21 LOU SMIT: How did you sleep that night with

22 your windows open?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably cracked. I always

24 liked to have the window open. But it was winter

25 night so we cracked it probably.


 1 LOU SMIT: Where are the windows located

 2 in your room?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: This is the window I usually

 4 open. This is the window to (INAUDIBLE). They're

 5 crank out windows. They were new windows. If I

 6 would have followed my normal procedure, I would

 7 have cracked that open a little bit. In the

 8 summertime, we would have them open.

 9 The only time remember being awakened is from

10 student noises or something going on in the

11 street.

12 LOU SMIT: Your neighborhood itself, is it

13 normally quiet?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: It's, except for the students,

15 well I presume they're students, and you can hear

16 some carrying on late at night from time to time,

17 usually on the weekends.

18 LOU SMIT: Now, you said you had taken that

19 Melatonin, how many tablets did you take or do you

20 remember that?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't remember exactly.

22 Probably I think one. It's a guess.

23 LOU SMIT: Were you under any other medication

24 at that time at all that you can think of



 1 JOHN RAMSEY: No. The only medication I took

 2 from time to time was for allergies. I don't

 3 recall. I don't think I was on any allergy

 4 medication.

 5 LOU SMIT: How about Patsy? Like Patsy, before

 6 she went to bed would she ever take any medicine?

 7 Would she have any medicine?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: She had some vitamins and things

 9 like that that she took. I don't think that she

10 had any medical medicine.

11 LOU SMIT: No prescription drugs?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't believe so.

13 LOU SMIT: Not even for the cancer?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so. I think she

15 was pretty much off all medication once they got

16 into the natural vitamins and things like that.

17 She probably took those.

18 LOU SMIT: How about in your medicine

19 cabinets? Do you have any medicine in them?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, yes. There were lots and

21 lots of medicine.

22 LOU SMIT: Can you name one of them?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, there was -- I would be

24 guessing. I'm sure there were some antibiotics

25 from just her dad. Linda, my daughter, whose a


 1 nurse came in once, actually before that, and she

 2 went through all our medicine cabinets and cleaned

 3 out all the old prescriptions and drugs that

 4 shouldn't be there. I know she through out a lot

 5 of stuff that just kind of accumulated.

 6 LOU SMIT: Do you remember what kind of shoes

 7 you were wearing that night especially?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't for sure. I looked at

 9 some of the pictures for them to show me shoes.

10 But they probably would have been shoes

11 (INAUDIBLE) pairs of shoes. But I've had these for

12 a long time. If they were loafers, I'm sure.

13 LOU SMIT: Is that the type you normally wear?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably would have worn those for

15 that kind of occasion. I have some kind of like

16 dress boots, but there wasn't any -- I don't

17 recall.

18 LOU SMIT: When you came into the garage that

19 night, do you recall the conditions, the weather

20 conditions and the road conditions that may --

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, the drive way was totally

22 clear. I remember that because (INAUDIBLE). I mean

23 there was nothing going on weather wise, because I

24 would have noticed that because we were leaving in

25 the morning. So there was nothing going on weather


 1 wise when we came in. It didn't give me any cause

 2 to worry what the weather was going to be like.

 3 LOU SMIT: Do you call that it snowed or

 4 rained?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: There was no snow at all when

 6 we came in. I got up the next morning and looked

 7 out. The sky was sort of breaking up. It look like

 8 some evidence of some snow in the trees, so it had

 9 snowed a little bit. But I remember thinking that

10 it was no big deal.

11 LOU SMIT: Where did you look out at that

12 time?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm pretty sure it was out

14 of my windows in the dressing area.

15 LOU SMIT: If you could show us that in the

16 diagram here?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Just study that. I remember

18 thinking that there was no concern.

19 LOU SMIT: Do you remember that there could

20 have been a light sprinkling of snow?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: There was a little snow in some

22 trees (INAUDIBLE).

23 LOU SMIT: Would that mean there was possible

24 snow in the driveway area (INAUDIBLE).

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't look specifically.


 1 But I would have if it had been enough snow if I

 2 would have been concerned about the runway, for

 3 example, it would have caused me to think, (Oh

 4 oh.̃ All I remember thinking is (INAUDIBLE) it's

 5 not going to be a problem.

 6 LOU SMIT: And this here, what is your normal

 7 procedure for making your bed or for your bedding

 8 at night? What is your normal procedure?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Usually I'll get up. Eighty

10 percent of the time I'll get up before Patsy does.

11 Probably make my half of the whole thing most of

12 the time.

13 LOU SMIT: Is that the majority of the time?

14 Do you remember what you did that 26th?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think we made the bed

16 because I got up before Patsy. I woke up before

17 the alarm went off and she got up after that.

18 LOU SMIT: How (INAUDIBLE) or the previous day?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: We pretty likely did not make the

20 bed.

21 LOU SMIT: After Christmas?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I guess I didn't even have

23 time.

24 LOU SMIT: You mean it would have (INAUDIBLE)?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well the kids were there. They


 1 wanted to go down and open presents.

 2 LOU SMIT: So the bed would have been unmade

 3 probably when you went to bed?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Quite possibly. I don't remember

 5 specifically.

 6 LOU SMIT: What part of the bed do you sleep on?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I slept on this side.

 8 LOU SMIT: Which is the north side of the bed?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

10 LOU SMIT: Okay. You wake up the next morning

11 and you recall then what time it was? What time do

12 you remember it being?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think we set the time

14 for 5:30. I remember waking up before the alarm

15 went off. So it would have been 5:25 or probably

16 something like that.

17 LOU SMIT: What time do you normally get up?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Normally I get up naturally. I

19 don't set the alarm. I wake up 6:30.

20 LOU SMIT: So you specifically set the alarm

21 when you want to wake up at a certain time?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

23 LOU SMIT: You remember setting the alarm on

24 Christmas night?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember specifically


 1 doing it. But I know I did because we had to -- we

 2 had wanted, because as I recall we wanted to take

 3 off at 7:00. It was a three-hour flight to

 4 Minneapolis. That would have gotten us there at

 5 11. The kids' flight got in at elevenish. I

 6 remember I wanted to leave, I didn't want to be

 7 late for the kids' plane.

 8 Typically with trips like that we're always

 9 late. We would need to be there at 7:00 and we'd

10 get there at 7:30. I wanted to be sure that we

11 were up at this time.

12 LOU SMIT: How about packing at all? I mean,

13 were you already packed?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm a light traveler when we

15 go to the lake. I've got clothes up there. I don't

16 remember packing anything. I probably would have

17 taken, it seems like I had a heavy coat I wanted

18 to take with me. But that was about it. Because I

19 got everything I --

20 LOU SMIT: What kind of a coat?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I would be guessing. I think

22 I was going to take a coat. Because it was have

23 been winter there.

24 LOU SMIT: What kind of clothes do you have

25 up there? You had that one that you were taking


 1 with you?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I've got one kind. (INAUDIBLE)

 3 It's like a fake nagahide kind of. I think that's

 4 the coat I wanted to take.

 5 LOU SMIT: So you're a light packer and you

 6 don't remember packing anything?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm sure I didn't pack anything.

 8 I just took the coat. Anything I was setting to

 9 take I would have done in the morning. But the

10 only thing I remember is that I wanted to take

11 this coat.

12 LOU SMIT: Did you take a shaving kit?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, no. I've got all that

14 stuff up there.

15 LOU SMIT: So you got up. What about Patsy

16 and the kids? There were various things. What do

17 you remember about that?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: About us packing?

19 LOU SMIT: Um hmm.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I know we had some suitcases set by

21 the back door to go.

22 LOU SMIT: And the backdoor would have been?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: The garage door.

24 LOU SMIT: The back garage door. What kind of

25 suitcases would they have been?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: They were, as I recall, there

 2 was a black carryon, one of those, I remember it

 3 was a pop out.

 4 LOU SMIT: You remember that specifically?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Pretty specifically. I think

 6 I

 7 had my computer; I think I had my little lap top

 8 computer there ready to go.


10 JOHN RAMSEY: I think that was set out the

11 night before.

12 LOU SMIT: When would you have done that?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I can't remember if that was

14 before we went to the Whites or after. I think it

15 was (INAUDIBLE).


17 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah.

18 LOU SMIT: And you would have just left that

19 by the door and then take it with you?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: As we left, yeah. I would take

21 it out.

22 LOU SMIT: It seemed like there was other

23 suitcases in the process of being packed? What

24 were the specific conditions of (INAUDIBLE)?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy had done some packing


 1 in anticipation of the Big Red Boat trip because

 2 we were going to come home Friday and I think she

 3 had pre-packed some things for the kids primarily.

 4 So when we returned we could just grab our

 5 suitcases and go.

 6 LOU SMIT: All right. Now let's talk about

 7 the morning. And when you wake up what do you

 8 notice? What is the first thing upon awaking do

 9 you --

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I went into the bathroom;

11 probably went to the bathroom, took a shower. Just

12 started to get dressed.

13 LOU SMIT: Did you ever have trouble during

14 the night going to the bathroom?



17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, yeah, usually once a night

18 I'll wake up and go to the bathroom and go back to

19 bed. I don't recall doing it that night. But

20 that's not unusual at all.

21 LOU SMIT: Okay.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: But I remember I was standing

23 at my sink and I was probably brushing my teeth or

24 combing my hair or something and I heard Patsy

25 scream.


 1 LOU SMIT: Had you showered yet at that time?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, usually I take a shower

 3 the first time.

 4 LOU SMIT: Before you brush your teeth?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 6 LOU SMIT: Which bathroom did you use (INAUDIBLE)

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: This one back here.

 8 LOU SMIT: And you just use the shower?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Yeah, normally (INAUDIBLE)

10 the tub.

11 LOU SMIT: You know about what time it

12 was that you heard her scream?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have probably been

14 between 5:30 and 6:00. Probably around that time

15 period.

16 LOU SMIT: Did you see your wife get up that

17 morning?


19 LOU SMIT: So you had already been in the bathroom

20 when she got up?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

22 LOU SMIT: Describe that scream?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: It was just a -- she screamed

24 my name and I knew, I could just tell that

25 something was just terribly wrong. And I just went


 1 charging downstairs.

 2 LOU SMIT: Okay. Which stairs did you go down

 3 then?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: It was the spiral ones.



 7 LOU SMIT: Okay.

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I went to the spiral ones.

 9 It seems to me she was coming up at the same time.

10 One of the things that these guys get nervous

11 about is when we tried to recall facts.

12 LOU SMIT: Right.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: But I'm telling you what I recall.

14 LOU SMIT: And that's what I'm saying, the best

15 you can recall. And sometimes to jiggle your

16 memory just a little bit. And a lot of times you

17 just kind of put yourself right back. I mean I

18 know it's hard to do, and I know that. But,

19 sometimes if you can do that a lot more details

20 come to mind.


22 LOU SMIT: You run down the stairs?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: You know, Patsy is hysterical.

24 I don't remember exactly what she said. I believe

25 that it was like, (They have JonBenet,̃ and she


 1 gave me this note?

 2 LOU SMIT: Where were you at that time?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I was either landing

 4 here or I had gone partially down the stairs. It

 5 was somewhere in this area.

 6 LOU SMIT: You would have been on the second

 7 floor then?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think. But it seems

 9 to me that somewhere here on the second floor,

10 partially down the stairs.

11 LOU SMIT: She had the note in her hand?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: As I recall, I remember I spread

13 it out on the floor just kind to absorb everything

14 quickly.

15 LOU SMIT: Tell me how you spread that out.

16 I mean, do you remember how the pages were like,

17 three --

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well there were three together and I

19 just kind of spread them out. I think there were

20 three pages. I spread them out next to each other

21 so I could look at the whole thing instantly.

22 LOU SMIT: Okay.

23 JOHN RAMSEY: And I remember just screaming.

24 Just --

25 LOU SMIT: What was the first thing then that


 1 struck you when you read the note? I mean your

 2 first impression after reading that?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well you first impression was

 4 that you can't believe it. And I can remember, we

 5 have your daughter. And it's the strangest feeling

 6 I could ever imagine.

 7 LOU SMIT: Are you standing reading the


 9 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I kind of got on my knees,

10 because I had them on the floor.

11 LOU SMIT: How were you dressed?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I had underwear on; I

13 had a shirt on. I don't think I had on my shirt

14 shirt. It was just an underwear thing.

15 LOU SMIT: How long did it take you?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Moments, I guess. I don't know.

17 I think I ran upstairs to look at her room. I

18 think Patsy said -- I don't know if she checked on

19 Burke. I don't know if she checked on Burke. I

20 remember running around a lot.

21 LOU SMIT: Let's think back just a little bit,

22 John, because sometimes that's important. The

23 sequence of things.

24 First of all, I notice that you need glasses

25 read. How was it that you could read that note?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: It was fairly large print,

 2 as I recall. But I can read, if I have to.

 3 LOU SMIT: What was the lighting like there?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Seems to me it was -- I don't

 5 remember it being dark out. But the light was

 6 good.

 7 LOU SMIT: Were any of the lights on in the

 8 hallway?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: They could have been. Probably

10 were.

11 LOU SMIT: Why?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Just because we would normally

13 turn that hall light on.

14 LOU SMIT: Where is the switch for that located

15 for the hall light?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: There's one here in the kitchen.

17 There's one here and one over here. There's

18 (INAUDIBLE) three light switches were here; one

19 here, over here and back here.

20 LOU SMIT: Now, you were reading the note,

21 and just try to think of -- first of all, where

22 was Patsy at that time?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember us both being kind

24 of in this area. She was in here, I was here on

25 the floor. She was just hysterical.


 1 LOU SMIT: Was she asking you any questions?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: What should we do, what should

 3 we do. And if we should call the police. And there

 4 was a (INAUDIBLE) that says not to call the

 5 police, so I called the police anyway. But she

 6 did; she called 911. And then she also called the

 7 Whites and the Fernies.

 8 LOU SMIT: Why would she? Why did she do that?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: They were close friends. And

10 I remember her just screaming, (Come over, come

11 over.̃

12 LOU SMIT: Did you do anything before the

13 911 call that you can think of?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we both checked JonBenet's

15 room and probably Burke's room before that.

16 LOU SMIT: Describe to me how you checked

17 their rooms?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think I ran upstairs

19 up the spiral staircase to her room and went in

20 and looked around and she wasn't there.

21 LOU SMIT: Describe how you looked around?

22 Did you look under the bed? What did you do?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. I tell you I

24 looked more later in the morning.

25 LOU SMIT: We'll get to that. Okay.


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: She wasn't in her bed.

 2 LOU SMIT: Patsy was with you at that time

 3 when you checked in JonBenet's room? You said we?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think she was. I think

 5 she checked, I don't know think she was with me,

 6 as I recall. She might have been right behind of

 7 me. There was just a lot of running around

 8 LOU SMIT: So that's before you called the

 9 police, is that right?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm pretty sure it was, yeah.

11 LOU SMIT: Do you remember either of you going

12 to Burke's room at that time?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we did. I think I did.

14 I remember going to his room. I don't remember if

15 it was directly from there to his room or if I

16 went downstairs and back up. But we checked his

17 room pretty shortly thereafter.

18 LOU SMIT: Was this before the police were

19 called or after?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I think before or at least

21 -- I'm not sure.

22 LOU SMIT: When you checked --

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Cause we called the police

24 pretty quick.

25 LOU SMIT: Okay. When you checked his room,


 1 what did you see and how did you --

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I just looked in and he was

 3 in bed and he was asleep. I mean I knew he was

 4 there and he was okay.

 5 LOU SMIT: Was the light on in his room?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I can't remember.

 7 LOU SMIT: Was the door closed or did he leave

 8 it open? Do you remember that?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: No, not specifically, I don't.

10 LOU SMIT: After that, then what do you do?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well sometime in that sequence,

12 I mean, Patsy called 911. I might have looked

13 around the house some more.

14 LOU SMIT: You have to describe that just a

15 little bit.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I know I looked in the refrigerator.

17 We have this walk-in refrigerator. We always

18 worried about the kids getting in there.

19 LOU SMIT: Before or after the 911 call?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was after, probably.

21 You see, as I recall, that was pretty quick.

22 LOU SMIT: Okay. Now you've called the police.

23 Patsy calls the police. Are you there with her

24 when she calls the police?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm -- yeah.


 1 LOU SMIT: Where is she at?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: She's at the phone in the kitchen.

 3 It's here, yeah, right here. I think I stood kind

 4 of right here.

 5 LOU SMIT: All right. Do you remember what she

 6 said on that 911 call?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: She was screaming, as I recall.

 8 I remember her struggling to make the person

 9 understand what the emergency was (INAUDIBLE).

10 LOU SMIT: So then the 911 call was made.

11 Do you hear Patsy then call her friends, or were

12 her friends called before?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, they were called after. I

14 remember hearing her scream, (Come over, come

15 over.̃

16 LOU SMIT: Where were you when you heard her

17 scream?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I was still in the same

19 general area. But I don't think -- somewhere here.

20 I was on the first floor, I think.

21 LOU SMIT: So then what? Then what do you do?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well before the first policeman

23 arrived I went upstairs and put on some pants and

24 a shirt and probably looked through the house some

25 more. You know.


 1 LOU SMIT: Just think about that just for a

 2 little bit. I probably went down (INAUDIBLE) At

 3 various through the morning I was checking to see

 4 what was locked.

 5 LOU SMIT: Was that later or was that right

 6 after --

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it wasn't a thorough --

 8 once (INAUDIBLE) backdoor, it was right there.

 9 LOU SMIT: Here? That's the south door.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. But it was locked, I'm

11 sure.

12 LOU SMIT: Do you remember when you checked

13 that?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not specifically. In your mind,

15 first of all you felt like you've been hit with a

16 baseball bat in your stomach and your mind is just

17 going mad. So it was a crazy time.

18 LOU SMIT: John, I just want to bring you

19 back to your reading the note here, okay? You come

20 down the spiral staircase, read the note?


22 LOU SMIT: Okay. Do you remember what the

23 temperature was at that time in the house, or do

24 you remember anything unusual at that time?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. It was odd.


 1 LOU SMIT: Now before the police come, you

 2 say you go back upstairs and you put on a shirt

 3 and pair of pants. Do you remember how Patsy was

 4 dressed at that time? Or do you have any

 5 recollection at all of how she was dressed?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. No.

 7 LOU SMIT: What's your first recollection

 8 then just before the police come? And just before

 9 the police come what were you doing?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I'm sure I started to

11 check some of the areas, like the refrigerator and

12 just trying to check this area?

13 LOU SMIT: Did you ever check this area,

14 the butler's kitchen?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember

16 specifically looking there, no. I might have, but

17 I don't remember.

18 LOU SMIT: How much of a time period

19 that call was made and the police officer arrived?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: It wasn't very long. Five

21 or ten minutes, maybe. Yeah. I remember I came in

22 and I came back and let him in the hallway. I

23 said, (My daughter's been kidnapped. Here's a

24 note.̃ And he said, (Are you sure she just didn't

25 run away?̃ and I said, (For God sake, she's only


 1 six years old.̃ And I sort of had to convince that

 2 we really had a problem here.

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: But, he was good, he was pretty

 4 good on the uptake.

 5 LOU SMIT: Just try to take it in slow steps.

 6 You know what you did with the officer and how you

 7 proceeded then; (INAUDIBLE)?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: We were standing in the hallway.

 9 We were handing him the note trying to explain and

10 convince him that we had a problem. And at some

11 point he asked us all to go into this room here

12 and stay there.

13 LOU SMIT: That's the solarium?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. The Fernies and the

15 Whites were arriving at sometime between - I think

16 he got there first. But at some point he kind of

17 shepherded us all in there and asked us all to

18 stay there. (INAUDIBLE)

19 LOU SMIT: What did you do with the not?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I gave it to him. I think at

21 that point he kept it. I mean I don't remember him

22 giving it back to me. I do remember later we had,

23 I think they made copies but we had it spread out

24 on the table back here just trying to figure out

25 what we could figure out.


 1 LOU SMIT: Are you with the officer from

 2 when he comes in? What is your association with

 3 that officer? Is it constant; is it sporadic?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: It's fairly constant, as I

 5 recall.

 6 I mean, you know, it's help and what can we do and

 7 what have we got to do.

 8 LOU SMIT: Where do you go with him? With

 9 the officer?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think another fellow

11 came fairly quickly after that and one of them

12 went through the house. (INAUDIBLE) another and I

13 think there were several that came very quickly;

14 uniformed police. And I remember they moved their

15 cars from in front of the house because they

16 didn't want people that we had called the police.

17 But at one point there were some five or six

18 uniformed police in the house. And then a couple

19 people from Victim's Advocacy came too.

20 LOU SMIT: Did you look in JonBenet's room

21 with the officer?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Possibly. I don't remember. I'm

23 sure I remember trying to go through to the parts

24 of the house.

25 LOU SMIT: See, that would help us to find out.


 1 What floor would you have gone through, I mean how

 2 would that have been?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think the first thing

 4 that perplexed me, was how could they have got in

 5 and how could they have got in the house. And he

 6 was trying to look for a how come they got in. And

 7 then I thought about it later, I don't remember

 8 when, I started wondering was anybody watching the

 9 house, because the note said they would be

10 watching.

11 So I went up to my bedroom and looked out the

12 window and then I went to Burke's room and looked

13 out the windows with some binoculars and I was

14 looking at cars that were driving by. There was a

15 truck that was parked in the alley across the road

16 that I had never noticed before and I was watching

17 the truck to see if possibly somebody who was --

18 What was going through my mind was, when we lost

19 Beth I was in my office. I got a phone call from

20 my brother and he said Beth is dead. There was

21 nothing I could do about it. I couldn't go an

22 visit her. It was over.

23 With JonBenet, I felt we were going to get her

24 back. And I remember mustering every ounce of

25 mental capacity I had to get her back. And, so


 1 despite the fact that I was just going mad out of

 2 my mind and my daughter wasn't there, I was trying

 3 to muster logic and reason and, (Okay, settle

 4 down. Let's get her back.̃

 5 So after that first shock of, she's gone. I was

 6 like, okay, what are we going to do. Let's get her

 7 back. And so as the morning wore on that was what

 8 was driving me. So I was trying to figure out

 9 (INAUDIBLE) watching the house. What are we going

10 to do and all those kind of thoughts. And is she

11 in the closet or in the refrigerator or behind the

12 curtain.

13 Just kind of scatterbrain and just took that focus

14 and so --

15 LOU SMIT: You say you used binoculars.

16 Where did you get them from?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: They were from my bedroom,

18 I think. Probably (INAUDIBLE).

19 LOU SMIT: Okay. Did you use a flashlight

20 at that point?


22 LOU SMIT: What kind of flashlight do you

23 have?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we've got several, I guess.

25 One that, I believe, came up as an item was this


 1 MAG light flashlight. If it's the one I think it

 2 is, my son gave me that for a Christmas present a

 3 year or two ago. And that was probably in the bar.

 4 The bar drawer was typically where it was kept.

 5 LOU SMIT: You don't remember getting that?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I know I did not get it.

 7 LOU SMIT: Anyone else get it?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I recall. I don't even

 9 know it worked. Typically our flashlights didn't

10 work because we needed new batteries (INAUDIBLE).

11 We might have a few blown flashlights around.

12 LOU SMIT: Let's talk about the truck that

13 you say you see. Which window were you at when you

14 saw it?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I was in Burke's room.

16 Because the window is here.

17 LOU SMIT: Where was the truck parked?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was kind of behind the

19 Barnhills. There's an alley behind the Barnhills

20 and then almost like a house behind the Barnhills.

21 And I watched it for a while and there wasn't any

22 activity. I also saw a little white car that seem

23 to drive by (INAUDIBLE).

24 And I think it was early morning, the day after

25 Christmas. There wasn't much going on.


 1 Specifically I do remember the truck; I remember

 2 seeing the white Ford Fiesta or something like

 3 that. It was a small white --

 4 LOU SMIT: And where was that at?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: It drove by --

 6 LOU SMIT: You got that picture of your house?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It drove on Cascade, drove

 8 down the street.

 9 LOU SMIT: Any other activity? When was this

10 that you were doing this, John?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: This was probably early part

12 in the morning as I was trying to grasp what was

13 going on. Probably before, some time between six

14 and ten. Because we started to wait for the call.

15 We were ready for the call. I think he said he

16 would call at ten or after ten. And so we were

17 ready for that call. (INAUDIBLE) before that.

18 LOU SMIT: So you were anticipating the call from

19 the kidnapper? You made a series of calls that

20 morning. Can you remember it just kind of in

21 sequence how you did that?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I called -- I wanted to get

23 hold of Mike Archuleta who was waiting for us at

24 the airport by that time. I think they got a

25 number which rings into the cell phones they carry


 1 with them: 877-4286, I think it is.

 2 I might have called that number. I don't remember

 3 if I got Mike or I got Rich, his partner. I got

 4 one of them. It seems like I got Rich.

 5 LOU SMIT: When was that call made?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well this would have been probably

 7 maybe 6:30, 7:00 I guess. Because I think he was

 8 waiting for us (INAUDIBLE). My older kids, at that

 9 time, had gotten on their plane to go to

10 Minneapolis, so there was no way I could

11 (INAUDIBLE). So I wanted to enlist Mike's help to

12 get in touch with them.

13 He volunteered to go to Minneapolis and pick them

14 up. I didn't want him to do that. So I just asked

15 him to get a hold of them when they got to

16 Minneapolis. So he took care of that.

17 And then I called Rod (INAUDIBLE) office, he's my

18 stockbroker and friend, to get the money together.

19 And that was probably fairly early, around 7:00,

20 7:30, around there. Rod was, I think he was at

21 home getting ready to go to his parent's place in

22 Mississippi, or he was at his parents. I don't

23 know which it was. But I was trying to get a hold

24 of him.

25 John Fernie, who was there, had a friend who was a


 1 head of a bank in Boulder, and so John kind of

 2 took over that role, getting the money together.

 3 Then Rod called and I basically told him what was

 4 going on. (INAUDIBLE) called back before he called

 5 back. Several times. And every time the phone rang

 6 my heart would stop. And they arranged to

 7 increase, just give me a credit line of $100,000

 8 or whatever it was, 120.

 9 And then John arranged with his bank to withdraw

10 $118,000 against my visa card. And I remember

11 John going bank to work on them so that. It seemed

12 like later in the morning. It was probably later

13 in the morning; nineish; eightish, nineish.

14 Somewhere in that region.

15 Those are the only calls I remember making. At

16 some point the (INAUDIBLE) called. I don't

17 remember if he was calling from our house or the

18 Fernies called before they left. But he came later

19 from homicide. And then people started to arrive.

20 LOU SMIT: How many phones do you have in

21 the house?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we had several. Some of

23 them didn't work. We had one in the solarium, we

24 had one in the kitchen, one back here.

25 LOU SMIT: All extensions?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. In terms of the number

 2 of phone lines, I think we had two. I had two. I

 3 think there was one that came out of here for the

 4 computer modem. It wasn't part of the rest of the

 5 house system. There is one here in the study.

 6 There's one in the basement


 8 JOHN RAMSEY: There's one jack here but it

 9 didn't work. I think there was phone in Patsy's

10 room. But that was it.

11 LOU SMIT: But just two lines basically other

12 than the modem line, or does that make it three?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Just a modem line and three

14 phone lines.

15 LOU SMIT: And what was your phone number at

16 that time, if you remember?


18 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) that's fine.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember.

20 LOU SMIT: Where did you wait for the call

21 mainly?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I remember when Detective

23 Arndt came in, the uniform guy was trying to keep

24 everybody in the back room here and, then there

25 were a lot of people in there. There were


 1 detectives there and they had their quarters set

 2 up. They had cell phones. We were back in here, I

 3 know, for a little while. And Arndt was down the

 4 hall (INAUDIBLE) in the study.

 5 So then she took me up to his bedroom and we sat

 6 in this room and talked about it.

 7 LOU SMIT: That's called the guest bedroom?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Well we call it John Henry's

 9 room.

10 LOU SMIT: John Henry's room.

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. She had kind of methodically

12 went through; look here's what we have to do: when

13 this person calls you've got to insist that you

14 talk to JonBenet and stall for time. And I said

15 why, and (INAUDIBLE) got everything. Tell him it's

16 a hard job to raise that much money and use the

17 time. But you must talk to JonBenet.

18 So she was just coaching me on what to say, and

19 then we were just waiting for the phone to ring.

20 Mostly, as I recalled, I kind of waited in this

21 room, cause the phone was here. Which was the one

22 that I think I answered. And it rang several times

23 (INAUDIBLE) hang up. When I answered it, it was

24 hung up. But most of the time it was --

25 LOU SMIT: When was the hang up?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that morning during that

 2 period of time, you got to hang up. But the other

 3 calls were either from Ron (INAUDIBLE), I think

 4 Shirley called, our old nanny. Who had

 5 coincidentally (INAUDIBLE).

 6 LOU SMIT: Shirley's?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I think Shirley called.

 8 LOU SMIT: Shirley Brady?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Shirley Brady. Because as I

10 recall I think I was kind of short with here

11 because I wanted to be off the phone.(INAUDIBLE)

12 wait in here for the phone to ring. And we waited

13 for the specific call. (INAUDIBLE) I mean we were

14 standing in this area here and Linda said to me,

15 (Why don't you take someone and go through every

16 inch house and see if you see anything out of the

17 ordinary. And so we were standing there.

18 LOU SMIT: Okay. Let's back up just a little

19 bit?


21 LOU SMIT: You said that you went through

22 the house at another period of time?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

24 LOU SMIT: I remember in your report. Did you

25 ever go down to the basement?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. I went.

 2 LOU SMIT: Who was with you at that time?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I was by myself. I was. I had

 4 gone down the basement. I went in the --

 5 LOU SMIT: You're going to have to back up a

 6 little so that the camera (INAUDIBLE)?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I came down the stairs. I went

 8 in this room here. This door was kind of blocked.

 9 We had a bunch of junk down here and there was a

10 chair that was in front of the door. Some old

11 things. I moved the chair, went into this room,

12 went back in here. This window was open, maybe

13 that far.

14 LOU SMIT: Okay. You said -- or how far

15 were

16 you? An inch?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: An inch, maybe, or less. It

18 was cracked open.

19 LOU SMIT: Which window?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was the little one.

21 There's three windows across here, as I recall. I

22 think it was the middle one. It was that was

23 broken. There was pane class broken out of it,

24 which I attributed to breaking myself.

25 LOU SMIT: People go into that basement?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: But it was open and there

 2 was

 3 a suitcase under it. This hard Samsonite suitcase.

 4 LOU SMIT: Describe how the suitcase was

 5 positioned?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: It was against the wall. I think

 7 the handle was on top. It was directly under the

 8 window, as I recall. And I closed the window, I

 9 don't know why, but I closed it. And then --

10 LOU SMIT: When you closed it, did you lock

11 it or close it?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I latched it. There's a little

13 latch on it.

14 LOU SMIT: And you're sure of that?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Pretty sure, yeah. Yeah, I am

16 sure. I don't think I looked anywhere else. I

17 think at that point I still was trying to figure

18 out how they'd get in the house.

19 LOU SMIT: Well wouldn't that trigger your


21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah.

22 LOU SMIT: Did you tell anybody about that?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't really remember. I mean,

24 part of what is going on you're in such a state of

25 disbelief this can even happen. And the, you know,


 1 the window had been broken out. And you say hah,

 2 that's it. But it was a window that I had used to

 3 get into the house before. It was cracked and open

 4 a little bit. It wasn't terribly unusual for me.

 5 Sometimes it would get opened to let cool air in

 6 because that basement could get real hot in

 7 winter. So it was like, you know, after I thought

 8 about it, I thought it was more of an alarming

 9 situation how it struck me at the time. It was

10 still sort of explainable to me that it could have

11 been left open.

12 And the suitcase was unusual. That shouldn't have

13 been there. I took that suitcase downstairs, I

14 remember. But I sure wouldn't have taken it all

15 the way back there and put it against the window.

16 LOU SMIT: Okay. Let's talk about suitcases a

17 little bit as long as your talking about it now.

18 It was right up against the wall?


20 LOU SMIT: And you said you had taken that

21 down. When did you?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Months before, probably, months

23 before, two months before. It was one of these big

24 Samsonite suitcases that, I don't know, the kids

25 used it to bring some clothes home, the older


 1 kids. Sometimes it ended up at our house. I don't

 2 think it was our suitcase. It seemed to belong to

 3 Cindy Johnson, my ex-wife.

 4 But it was here for a while. It was up in the

 5 laundry room. I remember taking it downstairs to

 6 clean up. And I think I just kind of sat it in

 7 this room here.

 8 LOU SMIT: That would be in that hall?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Just in the landing in the hall

10 area.

11 LOU SMIT: Okay.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: But I'm 99.9 percent taken I

13 wouldn't have taken it all the way back and set it

14 against that wall.

15 LOU SMIT: When you noticed it, about what

16 time was that? That's kind of important. In terms

17 of time now.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it would have been probably

19 before nine o'clock, I would say. It would have

20 been that time period: seven to nine. Cause I was

21 still, you know amidst all this other stuff,

22 trying to figure out what's going on here? How did

23 they get in the house? I know this is before Linda

24 told us to go through the house. It was well

25 before.


 1 LOU SMIT: And was there lighting down

 2 there

 3 or anything at that time?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't specifically, I don't

 5 remember that it was on. The lights were probably

 6 off, which would have been normal.

 7 LOU SMIT: How would you have been able to

 8 basement with the lights off, or was it --

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: With the lights off at night

10 it would have been hazardous because there's a lot

11 of junk piled in here. This door was kind of

12 blocked with boxes and a little chair. And you

13 could move the chair and then walk right in. But

14 it would have been pitch black; it would have been

15 tough.

16 LOU SMIT: Did you say you had to move that

17 chair to get in?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

19 LOU SMIT: Any other areas you looked at?

20 You walked into that train room? Did you look in

21 any of the closets or in any other area?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember doing that.

23 I

24 think my purpose in going down there was to see,

25 to figure how they got in. But I don't remember


 1 looking anywhere else on that trip in the

 2 basement.

 3 LOU SMIT: You didn't got to the wine cellar

 4 at that time?


 6 LOU SMIT: How long would you say you were

 7 down there?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, a minute. Thirty seconds

 9 to a minute.

10 MIKE KANE: When was this?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was, if you're trying

12 to put in blocks of time, it was probably some

13 time between seven and nine.

14 MIKE KANE: Okay.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: That's probably as close as

16 I can come. It was earlier in the day.

17 LOU SMIT: Did you notice if any police

18 officers had checked that before?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I didn't. I don't know.

20 My impression was when they first came that

21 morning that one of them looked around.

22 LOU SMIT: Would that have been before you

23 went down there?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah, it might.

25 LOU SMIT: Do you remember the crime scene


 1 techs coming with their equipment?


 3 LOU SMIT: Would you know if he went down

 4 there before or after they were there?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Before, I would say.

 6 LOU SMIT: Okay.

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I think before.

 8 LOU SMIT: So after you checked the basement,

 9 what did you do then? Do you remember?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Not specifically. I came back up.

11 But I don't remember exactly what I after that

12 point. At one point I did go out to check this

13 door here because there was a bunch of boxes piled

14 in front of it. It was locked. Then I came out

15 here and went around and it was locked.

16 LOU SMIT: So you came out the south door

17 and checked the garage door and then you went back

18 in the south door. How long would that have taken?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Twenty seconds. Not very long,

20 thirty seconds, if that.

21 LOU SMIT: Other than that, did you ever

22 leave the house that morning?


24 LOU SMIT: There have been some questions

25 about your activities between let's say 10:30 and


 1 noon. Do you remember where you were between those

 2 two times?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I was either in this bedroom

 4 with Linda Arndt talking about procedure or what

 5 we're going to do, or I was waiting for the phone

 6 call. Because that was 10 to 12, as I recall, was

 7 when he would have called.

 8 LOU SMIT: Where was Fleet at this time

 9 or John Fernie? Did they ever talk to you?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh boy. I don't remember

11 specifically. But I know there were some other

12 people who were sitting back here and trying to

13 figure out what was going on. At that a point

14 there was a copy of the note on the table, and we

15 were trying to, you know, in our minds analyze

16 what it was were dealing with. And I think Fleet

17 was back there for a while. Fernie might have

18 been. I don't remember.

19 Fleet at one point took Burke, and this was

20 earlier in the morning, he took Burke over to his

21 house to be with little Fleet. John Fernie had

22 gone to the bank to work that issue. He came back

23 without the money and I said, (Where is the

24 money?̃ And he said, (The police didn't want me to

25 bring it to the house.̃ They were supposedly


 1 copying bills frantically at a copying machine.

 2 That always struck me as funny. I expected him to

 3 come back with a bag of money. Somebody had

 4 instructed him not to bring the money back to the

 5 house.

 6 LOU SMIT: You say that Burke left. Do you

 7 recall the circumstances surrounding Burke leaving

 8 how he got involved in that?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Vaguely. I went into his room

10 to wake him up. I told him that JonBenet was

11 missing, gone. I remember him crying and just kind

12 of hustling to get up. I remember him delaying to

13 get a toy or Nintendo or something like that

14 before he left to take with him. Fleet took him in

15 his Suburban. They went out the front door.

16 LOU SMIT: Did he stop and get anything

17 to eat?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I doubt it. No. I mean, it

19 was a panic. I mean, we were just -- I don't even

20 remember that we got him dressed. I don't remember

21 specifically getting Burke dressed. I remember

22 discussing where should we take him; he needs to

23 get out of here; he needs to be safe.

24 LOU SMIT: Do you remember specifically ever

25 going out this door, the butler door?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: That morning?

 2 LOU SMIT: Yes.

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I did not. I know I did

 4 not.

 5 LOU SMIT: Do you remember anyone going out that

 6 door?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. That door, from time

 8 to time, I'd find wide open because if one of the

 9 kids would go out they'd leave it open. But in the

10 normal course of activity, I remember going down

11 there. And I think on a couple of occasions I went

12 door and the door was just wide open or unlocked.

13 LOU SMIT: Is it problem with the door or

14 is it a --

15 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I think it's just in

16 our house kids would come and go out of every

17 orifice and place and that was one of them.

18 LOU SMIT: I know we're going to get more

19 questions in regards to this. But I think this is

20 enough for now. But what I'd like you to them is,

21 just from the time that Linda Arndt told you

22 (INAUDIBLE) progress right in that time.

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I mean, she said go

24 through every part of the house to see if you see

25 anything that's unusual. So I so Fleet, because


 1 she wanted me to take someone with me. So Fleet

 2 was right there, so he went with me.

 3 LOU SMIT: What made you decide to go

 4 downstairs?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I just wanted to start

 6 logically from the bottom up, I guess, as I was

 7 looking at it. And I could have just as easily

 8 gone upstairs, but I went down. Probably just

 9 logically going through every inch of the house.

10 So I went down to the basement. I went into this

11 room with Fleet. I explained to him that this

12 window had been cracked open and I closed it. That

13 the window was broken, but I think it was broken

14 by me once before. We got down on our hands and

15 knees looking for some glass just to see.

16 LOU SMIT: What did you find?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we found a few fragments

18 of glass not enough to indicate that it was a

19 fresh break.

20 LOU SMIT: What did you do with those fragments?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: We might have put them on the

22 ledge, if I remember. It really wasn't much. We

23 had only found one or two. We might have put them

24 up here on the ledge.

25 LOU SMIT: Could you have put them on the


 1 suitcase?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Ahhhh, it's possible but I

 3 don't remember doing that.

 4 LOU SMIT: Was the suitcase, when you came

 5 back, in the same spot it was when you had been?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I moved it to see or

 7 to look for glass then. But I think it was where I

 8 left it, where it was when I was down there

 9 before.

10 LOU SMIT: Did you look inside the suitcase?


12 LOU SMIT: You knew what was inside of the

13 suitcase?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I presumed it was empty. It

15 should have been empty. I thought it was empty.

16 LOU SMIT: Okay.

17 JOHN RAMSEY: So we did that. I came back

18 out here and went right to this room.

19 LOU SMIT: So you left the train room?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I came right in here.

21 LOU SMIT: That's in the boiler, where the

22 boiler is?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I remember grabbing

24 the handle because the door was latched because I

25 expected it not to be latched. I reached out,


 1 flipped the latch and opened the door and

 2 immediately looked down.

 3 LOU SMIT: And you say immediately?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: There was a white blanket.

 5 And I just knew that I had found her.

 6 LOU SMIT: How were you standing in the

 7 doorway when you observed that?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: I was probably right there.

 9 The door pulled open. The handle was on the left

10 side of the door and it opened this way, as I

11 recall.

12 LOU SMIT: So now, I just want to get that

13 right because when you opened the door, you could

14 look inside the room. Is the light on or off at

15 the time you open the door?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was off. I don't

17 remember it being on. It was off.

18 LOU SMIT: Would you be able to see into

19 that

20 room if the light was off?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I saw clearly, instantly.

22 Yeah.

23 LOU SMIT: Do you remember turning the light

24 on?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think I did. I remember


 1 just this rush that I had found her and there was

 2 tape on her mouth. I took the tape off.

 3 LOU SMIT: We're going to get to that. I know

 4 that's hard, but we're going to get to that.

 5 You look inside there and you see that. Where is

 6 Fleet at this time?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I assume he's behind me, but

 8 I don't have any recollection (INAUDIBLE).

 9 LOU SMIT: Okay. What do you actually see

10 now,

11 I mean see in this room?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I see a white blanket

13 that's folded across her body neatly.

14 LOU SMIT: It was neatly folded across the

15 body?


17 LOU SMIT: Now describe that just a little

18 bit? Was it --

19 JOHN RAMSEY: She was laying on the blanket.

20 LOU SMIT: Was it laying on the back?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. On the back. The blanket

22 was caught up around and crossed in front of her

23 as if somebody was tucking her in.

24 LOU SMIT: Talk about the tape?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: There was a piece of fairly


 1 wide black tape, which I immediately took off. Her

 2 lips were blue.

 3 LOU SMIT: Where were you standing when

 4 you

 5 did that, John?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I was, she was like right

 7 there and I was right here.

 8 LOU SMIT: So you hadn't gone into the wine

 9 cellar, you were still on the north side of her at

10 that point?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Um hmm.

12 LOU SMIT: And the duct tape, do you remember

13 if it was adhered all the way to her mouth?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It wasn't really duct

15 tape, it was -- well I'm sure you've seen it. But

16 it was like black. It wasn't electrical tape. It

17 was kind of white, black, unusual tape, I thought.

18 LOU SMIT: What did you do with the tape?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I took it off with my

20 right hand and just dropped it. I didn't do

21 anything specific with it.

22 LOU SMIT: What else do you remember right

23 at that time?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I just remember just talking

25 and, (Come on baby.̃ And I tried to untie her


 1 arms; they were tied up behind her head.

 2 LOU SMIT: Were they tied tight?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, very tight.

 4 LOU SMIT: They were very tight?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I noticed a spot in her coat,

 6 below the surface.

 7 LOU SMIT: How do you know they were tied

 8 tight?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Because they were -- you know,

10 her skin was swollen around. And they were not

11 easy to get off. I tried to untie them quickly and

12 I just picked her up carried her upstairs. I was

13 screaming. In fact, I couldn't even scream.

14 And then I brought her upstairs into the

15 living room and later there, at one point, tried

16 to untie the not further, and Linda Arndt stopped

17 me from doing it.

18 LOU SMIT: The knot?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

20 LOU SMIT: Where?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Up on her arms. And I didn't

22 notice the -- as I noticed the blood below the

23 surface, but I didn't notice this core around the

24 neck.

25 LOU SMIT: Now when you brought her up, did


 1 you bring her from the basement, and did you meet

 2 anybody up on the first floor?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember anybody. I

 4 just remember bringing her in and laying her -- I

 5 mean there were people in the dining and living

 6 room. But I remember Linda Arndt kneeling down

 7 beside her. I was there and Linda said she's dead.

 8 And I didn't want -- Patsy hadn't come in the --

 9 LOU SMIT: When was Patsy --

10 JOHN RAMSEY: But I didn't know at the time,

11 but later, she was back in the study with Barbara

12 Fernie and I don't know who else. My emotion was

13 that I had found her, which was good. But she was

14 dead, which was horrible. But it was almost better

15 than not knowing. Cause not knowing where your

16 child is the most horrible feeling, I think, a

17 parent can experience. And that was (INAUDIBLE)

18 what had been going through our mind all that

19 morning.

20 So when I first found her I was like,

21 (Thank God, I found her.̃ I didn't want Patsy to

22 see her that way, and I ran upstairs and got a

23 blanket off one of the chairs, I think, it's got

24 a little shape like.

25 LOU SMIT: Upstairs?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably up in the TV room.

 2 I just ran up these stairs and went back down and

 3 put the blanket over her.

 4 LOU SMIT: At that time, what was Patsy

 5 doing?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think she'd come in

 7 the room yet. I think, what I remember later, was

 8 they wouldn't let her go into that room right

 9 then.

10 LOU SMIT: And when you say (theỹ, who?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Barbara Fernie and whoever

12 else was with her. I mean, she told me this later,

13 Patsy did.

14 BRYAN MORGAN: We've been doing this a lot

15 of time. I want to finish this part so we don't

16 have to go through this again.

17 LOU SMIT: I understand.

18 BRYAN MORGAN: Would you please do that and

19 give us some idea of how long, and then we can

20 take a break.

21 LOU SMIT: I think ten minutes and then

22 we'll probably --

23 MIKE KANE: I'm going to have some questions

24 about this too. I know we were going to come back.

25 I mean, we've been kind of doing this in a general


 1 way and then I just wanted to stay out of it for

 2 now.

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm okay.

 4 LOU SMIT: I know it's very tough.

 5 MIKE KANE: And I'm sensitive to that too.

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I appreciate it.

 7 BRYAN MORGAN: You all understand how many

 8 times I've seen this gone on.

 9 LOU SMIT: I see that; I believe that.

10 BRYAN MORGAN: Please.

11 LOU SMIT: Do you want to continue?


13 LOU SMIT: Just go ahead. And Mike I want

14 you to jump right in.

15 MIKE KANE: I'm trying to get the sequence

16 here. I don't know if it's clear. When, the first

17 thing in the morning, you had the note. You said

18 you got dressed and you were looking for her. Was

19 that before the police arrived?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I put on pants and a shirt

21 before the police arrived.

22 MIKE KANE: Yeah. But then you were doing

23 something to look for her at that point. And where

24 did you go first?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't remember


 1 specifically. I remember, because the first thing

 2 that goes through your mind is: she's missing,

 3 where is she. And I remember opening the

 4 refrigerator; it's a walk-in refrigerator. I think

 5 I looked under the bed. There was nothing

 6 methodical about it. (INAUDIBLE).

 7 MIKE KANE: Did you go to the basement?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I didn't go to the

 9 basement till later.

10 MIKE KANE: Was there a reason?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I mean, the first thing

12 that came to my mind was the refrigerator. I don't

13 know why. I had to look in there and she wasn't

14 there. I mean it was a combination of trying to

15 see if she was in the house, to see how they got

16 in, and there's all this going through your mind.

17 Just what's going on.

18 MIKE KANE: Okay. And then I think you

19 said you did go in the basement to see how

20 (INAUDIBLE) Could you like just picture that scene

21 again and walk me through it?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, when I came down, I

23 mean, one of the things I noticed, okay, that door

24 is still blocked?

25 MIKE KANE: What do you mean it was


 1 blocked?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, there were some boxes

 3 and there was like a barstool kind of thing

 4 sitting there. It wasn't obvious to me that

 5 anybody had gone through because I had to move the

 6 chair to get in, which I did. And then I came back

 7 in here and I noticed the window was broken, which

 8 fits from when I did it. But the window was open

 9 slightly.

10 MIKE KANE: It might have had a little

11 latch or something?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Just this little latch. But

13 what I did specifically notice was the suitcase

14 sitting under the window. That was not -- that

15 didn't fit. I could explain why the window was

16 broken or why it might have been partly open, but

17 the suitcase just kind of jumped out at me.

18 MIKE KANE: And you said that you had

19 previously taken that down? I think you said you

20 took it down to the laundry room. Are you talking

21 about the second floor laundry room?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I think it had been up

23 here for a while. The kids had gone in; they

24 unpacked or whatever. Maybe it was in this room.

25 It was somewhere up in this area.


 1 MIKE KANE: Okay. I thought you meant the

 2 laundry area?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: No, no, the second floor.

 4 Because I took it down to the basement, but I just

 5 kind of sat it in this room. We weren't terribly

 6 neat, so putting stuff away was kind of a

 7 progression. So it got that far. But I absolutely

 8 did not move that.

 9 MIKE KANE: Now you said that that window

10 was open a bit, but that sometimes that had been

11 open before to let air --

12 JOHN RAMSEY: It was open for ventilation.

13 It was wide open, because with the heat all

14 winter, that room would really get hot. So if the

15 kids were down there and playing, you had to open

16 the window.

17 MIKE KANE: And that was a room where the kids

18 played in a lot with the train?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: The train was there. Burke

20 used to play with that. They didn't play there a

21 lot. Burke did, from time to time. But not so

22 much JonBenet. That was Burke's train room.

23 MIKE KANE: And so this was before or do

24 you remember if this was before or after the

25 Whites and Fernies (INAUDIBLE)?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was after,

 2 because they came fairly early.

 3 MIKE KANE: Was it long after?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I really don't remember

 5 specifically. The best I can do is, it was, I

 6 believe, after the police came. Because they had

 7 gone through the house before I figured out what

 8 I'm going to do. It was before ten o'clock. They

 9 had already done some preparation before that. So

10 it would have been before. Probably before nine.

11 So then somewhere between seven and nine.

12 MIKE KANE: Okay. I think it's, and this

13 may put things into perspective. I think you were

14 saying that you were expecting a phone call

15 between ten and 12. The note said between eight

16 and ten.

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, really?

18 MIKE KANE: So does that note, does

19 that put into context, between eight and ten,

20 where were you?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) yeah. Really it

22 does. When we were ready for the phone call and I

23 was prepped about what I was going to say and I

24 was getting the family ready. And so between that

25 period of time we were just waiting for the phone


 1 call and I was near the phone. And I was either in

 2 the study or on the first floor. I just waiting

 3 for it.

 4 MIKE KANE: So it would have been before

 5 that?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have been before

 7 that time period.

 8 MIKE KANE: But would if have been before

 9 the time that you said Linda prepped you? I

10 believe she arrived later on; she arrived around

11 eight o'clock or so?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was before that.

13 MIKE KANE: It was before that?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) my time --

15 MIKE KANE: No, I understand. That's why

16 trying to (INAUDIBLE).

17 JOHN RAMSEY: But if the note said, eight

18 to ten, which I don't remember.

19 MIKE KANE: Yes, it said that, eight.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: We were well prepared. There

21 was recorders set up; there was wire taps in

22 place; Linda had briefed me on what to say. So she

23 would have gotten there, gosh, quarter to seven,

24 seven. I'm sure --

25 MIKE KANE: Yeah. No, I'm just trying to


 1 put the time --

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. But she was there for

 3 a while. She was there a good while before we were

 4 ready for the call.

 5 MIKE KANE: Okay. And now, there was another

 6 time that you went down, and that's when you went

 7 down with Fleet?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. That was after we waited

 9 and waited and it didn't appear we were going to

10 get a call.

11 MIKE KANE: So after that ten o'clock time

12 period was up, was there a discussion about, maybe

13 he'll call later or something (INAUDIBLE)?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I mean, first of all the

15 note said, we were going to call you tomorrow. We

16 didn't know if tomorrow was the 26th or the 27th.

17 We weren't sure. But it did say get a lot of rest

18 because you're going to have to travel a long way.

19 So it wasn't clear, totally clear, that it was

20 going be in the morning. But obviously we hoped it

21 would be. So I'm sure that was going through our

22 minds. That if he means tomorrow (INAUDIBLE).

23 But I remember we were standing out in this area

24 and Linda said, (Why don't you go through every

25 inch of the house and see if you see anything out


 1 of the ordinary.̃ And it just seemed like the

 2 appropriate thing to do.

 3 MIKE KANE: So, from ten o'clock on after

 4 that time had passed, what do you recall even

 5 during that time? Were you still waiting for a

 6 call?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I think beyond ten, I don't

 8 remember how long.

 9 MIKE KANE: At some point you thought --

10 JOHN RAMSEY: At some point we sort of

11 figured, okay, maybe we weren't going to get a

12 call.

13 MIKE KANE: And what did you do at that

14 point? How did you occupy your time between that

15 and when you went downstairs?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't that I did much of

17 anything other than I was just waiting for that

18 call. And the phone rang maybe four, five, six

19 times during that period.

20 MIKE KANE: Okay.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: And I always jumped up and

22 answered it and the police got their recorders on.

23 It was always a false alarm.

24 MIKE KANE: Where was Fleet White during

25 that time after the phone call (INAUDIBLE)?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember specifically.

 2 I mean, I remember by that time it was just kind

 3 of, people were all over. I remember Father Rol

 4 sitting on the couch praying in the living room. I

 5 don't have any specific --

 6 MIKE KANE: And where were you most of the

 7 time?


 9 MIKE KANE: Yeah, you.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think a lot of the

11 time I was back here.

12 MIKE KANE: After that ten o'clock deadline.

13 Do you remember?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I think for the most part I

15 was on the first floor. I don't remember

16 specifically. But there was people in the living

17 room, so I was probably kind of back and forth.

18 And the police were in the kitchen.

19 MIKE KANE: Was Fleet talking to you at

20 all during that?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Fleet was taking frantic

22 notes, I remember that. I noticed that it was a

23 yellow note pad, and he was just writing; writing,

24 writing, writing.

25 MIKE KANE: Do you know what he was writing?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. No. No. I mean it

 2 was like every little thing I had to do or should

 3 do --

 4 MIKE KANE: Did you find that odd?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I guess at the time I thought

 6 he was just trying to do whatever he could to

 7 help, was my impression. And at the time, I didn't

 8 find it odd.

 9 MIKE KANE: Was he talking to you and

10 comforting you?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember that he

12 was. Comforting that I remember was coming from

13 Father Rol. That's all I really remember

14 specifically.

15 MIKE KANE: And at that point, I knew

16 that one time you said that everyone was in the

17 solarium, and then you said Patsy and a couple of

18 others maybe went back to the study. Were they

19 still back in the study right after that ten

20 o'clock or do you know if they were back in the

21 solarium?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. Cause the

23 two ladies from the Advocacy were in the solarium.

24 A lot of them were sitting on the floor. I

25 remember sitting on the floor with a pail beside


 1 her because she was afraid she was going to throw

 2 up.

 3 I guess I remember her more in this room a lot

 4 than I do back there. I think they tended to stay

 5 in this room. We went back into this room.

 6 MIKE KANE: Bryan, I'm not sure, you said

 7 you don't want to go over it and I'm not sure

 8 exactly from what point to what point. Like, I do

 9 have questions about the night before.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: That's fine.

11 MIKE KANE: Questions about -- I don't know

12 whether you want to do this now or?

13 BRYAN MORGAN: John is anxious to get this

14 over with. The (INAUDIBLE) Q & A about what'd you

15 do next and what'd you do next. If he's up for it,

16 I'm up for it. I'm hoping that there will come a

17 time when we are finished with this. That's all

18 I'm trying to say.

19 MIKE KANE: That's fine. I understand. Okay.

20 You said that when you went down in the basement

21 that second time with Fleet, and you were back in

22 that room, you were looking for glass on the

23 floor. Why were you?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I was just trying to verify

25 in my own mind that I had in fact broken the


 1 window last summer and it was cleaned up and this

 2 wasn't the break I was looking for. If there was a

 3 lot of glass there.

 4 MIKE KANE: Okay.

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Because I wasn't sure that

 6 that window -- well I did know it hadn't been

 7 fixed. But it didn't totally surprise me that it

 8 hadn't been.

 9 MIKE KANE: Okay. Now when you went around

10 to the wine cellar door, you said you pulled at it

11 and, I think you said, that you were surprised

12 that it was latched?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I just said I remember pulling

14 on it almost popping out of hand because it's

15 always been open. And I don't think the latch was

16 latched.

17 MIKE KANE: I think you said, (I didn't expect

18 it to be latched.̃ Was it normally not?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I'd say, I mean, the door was

20 kind of stuck anyway, so it wasn't common to latch

21 it.

22 MIKE KANE: Did that latch, and I've seen

23 pictures of it, it was on like a pivot?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: It was on a block of wood.

25 MIKE KANE: A block of wood, but it was


 1 pivoted?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 3 MIKE KANE: Was it enough that it would fall

 4 down on its own or did you have to physically turn

 5 it?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I think you had to physically

 7 turn it.

 8 MIKE KANE: All right. Okay. Now, when you

 9 went inside to that room, you described the

10 blanket. And you said it was folded like -- I'm

11 just trying to get a mental picture of it. Was it

12 like --

13 JOHN RAMSEY: It was like an Indian papoose.

14 MIKE KANE: Okay.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: You know, the blanket was under

16 her completely. It was brought up and folded over

17 like

18 that.

19 MIKE KANE: Folded over, okay.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: It looked like, at that time

21 I didn't know the extent of the injuries, but it

22 looked like somebody had just put her there

23 comfortably, but tied up with her mouth gagged.

24 MIKE KANE: And John, I really understand

25 how difficult this is. Do you remember, was her


 1 head exposed? Were her feet exposed?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Possibly.

 3 MIKE KANE: But not the rest of her?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, yeah, I think her

 5 feet were exposed. But her head was. Her head was

 6 tilted to one side. I was trying to hold her head.

 7 MIKE KANE: I'm not really clear (INAUDIBLE)

 8 you said that they were tied tight. But were her

 9 hands tied closely together or were they wide

10 apart?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was like that.

12 MIKE KANE: There were crossed like that.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember, yeah, her hands

14 were close together.

15 MIKE KANE: And you tried to untie one of

16 them? Were you successful?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Partly. I mean, I sort of

18 started to get them untied, but I guess I was

19 starting to realize that that would do any good.

20 MIKE KANE: And so at that point then, was

21 it then you just took her right upstairs?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I just picked her up and ran

23 screaming upstairs.

24 MIKE KANE: Okay. And was the blanket still

25 there?



 2 MIKE KANE: Cause you took her out of the

 3 blanket and picked her up?


 5 MIKE KANE: Okay. Anyone else there with

 6 there? Was there anyone wait (INAUDIBLE), that

 7 door right there? Did you come up?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I came up and came

 9 around this part right over here.

10 MIKE KANE: Okay. And you said you yelled

11 and I guess people in the house heard that.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

13 MIKE KANE: And they came running?


15 MIKE KANE: Did you see everybody?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. All I

17 remember is Linda Arndt was there and Father Rol

18 was at her head.

19 MIKE KANE: Is there anybody that you


21 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. I mean

22 I've been thinking back, I don't remember Fleet

23 White saying anything when I was in that room. I

24 mean I felt like I was by myself. But that might

25 have been mistaken because I was. But from the


 1 point I found her to the time I got her into the

 2 living room, I felt like I was by myself, that

 3 there was nobody around in that little room.

 4 After we laid and I put the blanket

 5 over JonBenet and Patsy came in, I said to the

 6 people with her, both Fleet and Priscilla

 7 individually kneeled over her, just for a minute

 8 or two. And then at that point --

 9 MIKE KANE: This is really important.

10 That blanket, I mean, was it like there was care

11 taken? It was neatly folded?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I thought so, yeah.

13 MIKE KANE: It wasn't like it was just

14 barely thrown over her?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it looked like somebody

16 was trying to make her comfortable, because it was

17 under her, completely under her head and brought

18 up around her, as if you would wrap a --

19 MIKE KANE: Papoose?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: -- a papoose.

21 MIKE KANE: I don't have anything else.

22 LOU SMIT: Okay. I think that we should


24 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, it's frankly easier

25 now than it was.


 1 LOU SMIT: Do you want to take a break?



 4 LOU SMIT: Okay. You stayed in the house

 5 until -- do you remember what time that you left

 6 the house (INAUDIBLE)?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I'm always been messed

 8 up on my times, but we were leaving the house at a

 9 time when my older kids pulled up in a taxicab.

10 And they would have, my recollection is it was

11 around one o'clock. Mike Archuleta had contacted

12 them in Minneapolis. They were able to get on a

13 flight in Denver fairly quickly and then get a cab

14 from (INAUDIBLE) to our house. I mean they were

15 literally pulling in the cabs when were about to

16 get in the house to go to the Fernies.

17 LOU SMIT: Before you left, what did the

18 police tell you? I mean, normally they have

19 certain things that they tell someone. What did

20 they tell you prior to leaving?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: All I remember was they said,

22 yeah, we can leave the house. The coroner, I think

23 it was the coroner, came up with a form she wanted

24 to sign, because they had to do an autopsy and

25 they wanted me to sign it.


 1 LOU SMIT: Were you given any instructions

 2 to call the police or what to do or anything like

 3 that?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember that we were.

 5 I remember at some point I mentioned to Larry

 6 Mason that we go to in Atlanta, I remember

 7 thinking that I would just -- when Beth died we

 8 went to Atlanta, cause that's our home. That was

 9 kind of my instinct, just to go to Atlanta,

10 because that's home (INAUDIBLE). And he said,

11 (Well, you need to stick around for a couple

12 days.̃ (I said okay.̃

13 LOU SMIT: He said to stick around?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: For two or three days. And

15 so we went --

16 LOU SMIT: Did he say when he would contact

17 you or anything like that?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: He might have, but I don't

19 remember. All I specifically remember was the

20 coroner giving me this form to sign and I signed

21 it.

22 LOU SMIT: Now when you were in the house

23 just prior to leaving, were you or -- did you take

24 any medicine or Patsy take any medicine?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember anything


 1 about that.

 2 LOU SMIT: You know, to calm her down or

 3 anything like that?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: No, we didn't have anything

 5 like that.

 6 LOU SMIT: So then you go to the Fernies.

 7 Can you just kind of remember? This would have

 8 been during the afternoon. Can you just remember

 9 basically what you did as a family, Patsy and

10 yourself?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember much. I mean,

12 we went to the Fernie's house, we were in the

13 living room. The police might have been there. I

14 know we had a police officer 24 hours a day, which

15 we felt made us feel secure. We were very afraid.

16 LOU SMIT: Of?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Of the killer or who was

18 after us, who was trying to harm us. Were they

19 going to harm Burke. We were frightened. And

20 having the policeman there was very comforting. I

21 remember that. (INAUDIBLE) you leave, I don't

22 know.

23 But we pretty much just stayed in the

24 living room. People came in, or people were

25 coming. Dr. Bob came at some point that day. I


 1 don't remember when. I mean, there was just --

 2 from that point for several days it's kind of just

 3 a blur. We were in the Fernie's house. There were

 4 lots of people. (INAUDIBLE).

 5 LOU SMIT: At that point did you get any

 6 medications for yourself or for Patsy?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: You know I think we did, yeah.

 8 But I don't remember specifically. At that time we

 9 didn't take any medication. It just didn't occur

10 to us that there was that option. But I think

11 fairly early on we got some kind of prescription.

12 Whatever it was, I don't remember. But I'm sure I

13 had a drink or two or three.

14 LOU SMIT: What did you drink?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know. But it would

16 have been a hard drink.

17 LOU SMIT: Did you take any medications

18 yourself?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. If they

20 were available, I'm sure I did. But I don't

21 remember at what point I started taking it.

22 LOU SMIT: How about Patsy?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I think they got her on

24 medication fairly quickly.

25 LOU SMIT: Do you know what it was? Do


 1 you have any idea at all?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) well it was

 3 probably Dr. Bob, who's the physician there for

 4 the family; a pediatrician. A friend of ours.

 5 Cause I remember she came there and she was with

 6 her. I'm sure she (INAUDIBLE).

 7 But there were people, some very good

 8 charity (INAUDIBLE) who was with us and helped a

 9 lot.

10 LOU SMIT: Do you remember the first night?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember trying to sleep on

12 the floor. (INAUDIBLE). I think she was sleeping

13 on the (INAUDIBLE) in agony.

14 LOU SMIT: What was your interaction with

15 your wife at that time, or even earlier? Did you

16 have much interaction?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I think so. I mean, she was

18 in shock, I'm sure. I mean, I really don't

19 remember much that day. I remember sitting there

20 talking to Linda Arndt and Larry Mason. I don't

21 remember if it was that afternoon or the next day.

22 But it was within the time period.

23 I stayed on the couch. I knew they came and they

24 took us down to her bedroom and the basement to

25 talk to us privately because there were a lot of


 1 people around.

 2 LOU SMIT: Do you remember what you

 3 discussed down there at that time?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't.

 5 LOU SMIT: Whether to contact the police

 6 or whether they would contact you or whether to

 7 come in for an interview?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: No. The only time I remember

 9 them asking us to come in for an interview, I

10 think it was the next day Linda Arndt and Larry

11 Mason had come and they were sitting on the couch

12 and we talked for while. And they said, (Can you

13 come to the police station.̃ And I said, (I don't

14 think I can do that physically. Can you just come

15 here?̃ and they said no, you need to go to the

16 police station. I remember that.

17 I remember Dr. Bob saying that Patsy was in no

18 condition to go out of this house. (INAUDIBLE)

19 talking, come here talk to (INAUDIBLE) I just

20 can't leave.

21 LOU SMIT: Was anything said about that

22 at this time? Did they try to talk you through --

23 JOHN RAMSEY: We said, (Why do we have

24 to go there? Why can't you come here.̃ And they

25 said, (Oh, we have records and we might have to


 1 pull the file out and look at it.̃

 2 All we knew is that we couldn't physically get up

 3 and go downtown to the police station.

 4 LOU SMIT: Did you actually wear the same

 5 clothing you had on that day? Or did you take

 6 clothing with you?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I didn't take any clothes

 8 with me. I just left. I don't know how long I wore

 9 those clothes. People took care of us. That's all

10 I remember.

11 LOU SMIT: I know that relatives started

12 coming at that particular time too. How were they

13 notified?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. I know my

15 brother came; Rod (INAUDIBLE), a good friend from

16 Atlanta.

17 LOU SMIT: Your brother is Jeff?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. I don't remember

19 calling him. I probably did. But I don't remember.

20 I'm sure I probably called him that morning; the

21 morning of the 26th. But I don't specifically

22 remember doing it. But I'm sure I did.

23 LOU SMIT: Was someone in charge of, more

24 or less, the arrangements to bring JonBenet to

25 Atlanta?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we got in touch with

 2 the funeral home here, that was wonderful. I went

 3 out -- it might have been my brother and took care

 4 of everything. You know, there were people doing

 5 things for us. Our minister from Atlanta called

 6 and said he would be available at any time

 7 whenever we needed him. So we just kind of knew

 8 that was taken care of.

 9 When Beth died we got a cemetery plot.


11 LOU SMIT: What kind of arrangements were

12 made with the airlines to go down there? Do you

13 remember that or was it just --

14 JOHN RAMSEY: For us to go?

15 LOU SMIT: Right.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember (INAUDIBLE) who

17 I worked for, was great. They called; and my boss

18 called and said they would do anything, anything I

19 needed. I remember they called and said they were

20 going to send -- I don't know, it just happened

21 that they called and said they were going to send

22 an airplane to pick us up; which I was really

23 touched by.

24 LOU SMIT: Had you been in contact with

25 Lockheed or anything? Was there any protocol or


 1 procedure? You were an executive.

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I don't even remember

 3 how they became aware of it. I'm sure somebody

 4 told them.

 5 LOU SMIT: Is there a protocol for


 7 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Lockheed is surprisingly

 8 not very security conscious. I mean, I kind of

 9 noticed this afterwards. You have to be a higher

10 level and I was a group president, and at that

11 level doesn't pay for a security alarm in your

12 home; three (INAUDIBLE) bucks, great. At that

13 level (INAUDIBLE) paid for a full-time guard,

14 frankly.

15 For some reason it didn't seem, looking back on it

16 now, my God that's (INAUDIBLE) more as a big

17 industrial defense contractor why would they want

18 they be more security conscious. But they were

19 wonderful to us. But they arranged for us to get

20 back to Atlanta.

21 These guys just set it up. The group president

22 told me, he said, you do whatever you need to do.

23 And so they called up the aviation department and

24 said, (INAUDIBLE) type of plane you got out in

25 Colorado. Can you get that approved. (INAUDIBLE)?


 1 He didn't specifically approve that, but that's

 2 what they sent.

 3 So they sent out the (INAUDIBLE) That was just a

 4 really nice gesture because we didn't know how we

 5 were going to get back to Atlanta. We just knew we

 6 had to get back and that just kind of popped up.

 7 Whew.

 8 LOU SMIT: When you get back to Atlanta,

 9 and I have a few more questions, so just hold on.

10 When you get to Atlanta, and then you (INAUDIBLE)

11 for some time in Atlanta you have that conflict

12 between White. And I know you were probably good

13 friends --

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

15 LOU SMIT: -- at some particular point.

16 Just what caused this? Do you know Fleet that

17 well?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I thought I did. We knew

19 him for three years, or two years; two or three

20 years. We sailed together under some fairly

21 adverse circumstances. Fleet was always -- got to

22 know each other. We talked a lot, but it was

23 always about sailing. He kind of got me on that.


25 But Fleet was, and some of this is in retrospect,


 1 but apparently John Fernie wouldn't let him get on

 2 the plane. He was going to (INAUDIBLE) while he

 3 was flying back to Atlanta and John Fernie

 4 wouldn't let him get on the airplane. We were told

 5 because he was just crazy.

 6 LOU SMIT: I thought you said you were

 7 driven out there? What condition was this?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: He would tend to panic a bit.

 9 Not be controlled in a stressful situation. One

10 time we were sailing, we had come in, we just

11 crossed Lake Michigan and we had (INAUDIBLE) big

12 time and it was like 30, 40 knots and we were hold

13 in this harbor and dropped our sails and had our

14 engine on and we floated right in. And don't think

15 there were any waves because the wind was blowing

16 across the (INAUDIBLE) and the engine stopped.

17 So here we are about 40 knots from land and no

18 power. And I was steering and (INAUDIBLE) like,

19 what are you doing, there's this big break wall

20 coming at you. And so Fleet started screaming at

21 these boats passing us, (Throw us a line, throw us

22 a line.̃ And so they tried.

23 But if we had just thought a little bit together,

24 there's a lot of things we could have done. We

25 could have put the sail back up. We could have


 1 thrown out an anchor. We could have tried to get

 2 the line undone. But Fleet just immediately

 3 started screaming for help and I was just there

 4 trying to keep the boat from pointing in the wind.

 5 And then the Coast Guard came, fortunately, and

 6 they were incredibly professional as they pulled

 7 up along side of us. They were there with these

 8 lines. And they said -- and Fleet was standing

 9 with the lines, (Do not throw that line. Do not

10 throw that line. We will throw that line. Do not

11 throw that line.̃ Whew, over go the line.

12 But there have been cases like that. There were a

13 couple of other similar type of circumstances he

14 just seemed to kind of go --

15 LOU SMIT: Why did he go up to Atlanta?

16 What was his reason?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: His biggest issue was that we

18 retained attorneys. And he hated that. I don't

19 know why.

20 LOU SMIT: What was his big beef with that?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I remember

22 Priscilla saying, (You don't need attorneys. We're

23 next (INAUDIBLE), we're not going to get

24 attorneys.̃ I think he wanted to speak up. Because

25 by that time the media circus was rolling full


 1 speed ahead. He wanted us to speak out. He wanted

 2 us to -- and he was the one that advocated a

 3 (INAUDIBLE) our interview (INAUDIBLE).

 4 LOU SMIT: Tell me how that kind of came

 5 about. Because that's been something that's been

 6 brought up a few times.

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: You know, I don't remember

 8 exactly. But I remember he was just rabid about

 9 what the media was saying about us and we needed

10 to defend ourselves. And we needed to go on

11 television and --

12 LOU SMIT: Who actually made the arrangements

13 for that?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think I decided to

15 do it. And Bob Westmoreland, who is a friend of

16 the president of CNN, he was around us all that

17 time too, Bob was. And he said well I can call

18 whoever it was, and that was a logical place for

19 us to do it.

20 And so he called the president of CNN. I remember

21 at that time, which was only days after that, that

22 the president of CNN (INAUDIBLE) these people

23 (INAUDIBLE). Do you know this guy, and Rod said,

24 I'd stake my life on it. There's no way he could

25 have done this.


 1 And so the president of CNN kind of set up the

 2 interview. But it was at Fleets insistence. I

 3 remember he was (INAUDIBLE). Once before we really

 4 felt like we were making our own decisions for any

 5 kind of sanity.

 6 But you feel this (INAUDIBLE) kind of coming at

 7 you. And were weren't really aware of it other

 8 than they were at the church. They were literally

 9 at the gravesite, all these guys with big cameras

10 and telephoto lenses. And you start to realize

11 that there's this frenzy going on around you.

12 LOU SMIT: So then what was the purpose

13 of the interview?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think in my mind we

15 had gotten a lot of letters and sympathy cards and

16 just wonderful outpouring of support and I wanted

17 to thank people. There had been a wonderful

18 article in the Atlanta Constitution that said,

19 (Georgia bids goodbye to JonBenet̃ and I was very

20 touched by that.

21 I started to realize that this was touching a lot

22 of people, and I just wanted to thank them. And

23 this pressure that we were getting from Fleet and

24 Priscilla just to speak up for ourselves and

25 defend ourselves. And that, as I remember, it was


 1 Fleet's pounding on that. (INAUDIBLE) very happy.

 2 I mean there was that much pressure on us to do

 3 it.

 4 LOU SMIT: Why did you actually (INAUDIBLE)?

 5 What was it like to have your personal

 6 (INAUDIBLE)? Because I knew initially it said you

 7 were real upset or something about the way things

 8 were going. But what actually prompted you to


10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, as I said, we came

11 back

12 from Boulder, back from Atlanta to Boulder, with

13 the expressed purpose to coming to help with the

14 investigation. I know it was very upsetting Patsy

15 to come back. (INAUDIBLE) Things are not as you

16 would think they are; you need to be aware of what

17 was going on.

18 Like in April, I think the objective was that it

19 was being used so much against us: that we weren't

20 cooperating with the police; we weren't helping

21 with the investigation; that it was in our minds

22 not all what our intentions were. That we finally,

23 we wanted to do it.

24 And then we came back and I can remember sitting

25 around the table in Bynum's office and people


 1 explaining how it worked. But I was convinced I'd

 2 better listen to people and (INAUDIBLE). But I

 3 didn't. I was growing more and more convinced that

 4 were in, as I say, not only a focus of the

 5 investigation, but the only focus of the

 6 investigation.

 7 So we, frankly, just said, okay, we'll do whatever

 8 you guys tell us to do. (INAUDIBLE). And I think

 9 we were always very clear to them and we were

10 clear what our intentions were. And I think our

11 only position was: we would talk to the police as

12 long as there's a representative (INAUDIBLE)

13 there.

14 And that was always a sticking point. I don't

15 remember exactly why, but we developed a very

16 strong distrust of their motives and objectives

17 earlier on. And I remember that was one of the

18 conditions.

19 And then (INAUDIBLE) we agreed on to do it and we

20 said, okay, let's do it at ten in the morning or

21 whatever time it was. And they said, no, we want

22 you to come in at Friday night at six p.m. I said

23 whew.

24 So these attempts to do it, in our perspective we

25 were met with our good faith effort in return. And


 1 the April thing (INAUDIBLE) we had been so

 2 criticized with this, which is unfair. But let's

 3 get it over with. We're not going to speak out

 4 until. (INAUDIBLE) because we didn't feel that was

 5 right for us to (INAUDIBLE) and talk to the press

 6 or anyone else before we talked to the police.

 7 And so, in our minds, we wanted to help, to do

 8 what we could to help, despite what the risks were

 9 that these guys were telling us about. But all I

10 remember (INAUDIBLE) today, the years go forth. I

11 think we (INAUDIBLE) the district attorney

12 representative. And Patsy spent six hours and I

13 spent three hours or whatever it was.

14 And our plan, and we did, is when it came out, we

15 said, okay, we talked to the police. I don't know

16 how much else we said, but that was the first time

17 we could publicly represent ourselves against this

18 basic avalanche of (INAUDIBLE) to crucify us.

19 MIKE KANE: Let me just verify that.

20 Because I think there was something that I saw in

21 my file, that you had a real hang up with the DA.

22 What was it you were worrying about having the DA?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it wasn't my mind, it

24 was basically what was being recommended. But it

25 did make sense. And that was, that they felt the


 1 police were so biased against us that they wanted

 2 an independent, objective listener in the room so

 3 any information that came out of that room to you

 4 was not presented by a biased speaker.

 5 And all he did was sit there. I don't think he

 6 asked one question.

 7 BRYAN MORGAN: He didn't.

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: They felt that was very

 9 important. That was the only requirement that we

10 had. And the police wouldn't agree to it. I mean

11 there's a sequence of suspicious behavior on

12 (INAUDIBLE) that made us extremely cautious, even

13 though we wanted desperately to find out who

14 killed our daughter and (INAUDIBLE).

15 MIKE KANE: Did you ever feel like you were

16 playing right into that? In other words, just kind

17 of catch 22?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Sure. All we were doing was

19 being pressured. There were media leaks --

20 MIKE KANE: No, I mean it's a catch 22 if

21 you wanted to dispel suspicion and then you do

22 something that just creates more suspicion, like

23 not talk.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: We didn't not talk. We talked for

25 hours on the 26th, we talked for hours on the


 1 27th. We said we'll answer question (INAUDIBLE)

 2 properly. And we made offers to come in as long as

 3 the district attorney was present (INAUDIBLE).

 4 And it sure was frustrating to us. Because we knew

 5 we were getting --

 6 BRYAN MORGAN: I don't know the purpose of

 7 this frankly, but there is a lengthy record of

 8 requests of everything from blood samples to

 9 interviews with privileged personnel like doctors

10 and nurses to a half dozen handwriting samples to

11 (INAUDIBLE). Every single one was granted in that

12 period of time.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably.

14 BRYAN MORGAN: I repeat, I don't understand

15 the point of this questioning, and I'm not trying

16 to act the lawyers argument. But there is some

17 flesh on bones kind of statement that we would

18 cooperate to the extent we could.

19 MIKE KANE: My purpose is that, as I said,

20 in opening to you, these are questions that

21 somebody might ask down the road if we have an

22 intruder sitting in the defense chair.

23 BRYAN MORGAN: Well, I object.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we as the parents of

25 the murdered child wanted to be there and help


 1 them solve the crime. People that we respected

 2 were advising us. And evidence began to grow that

 3 they were right. And we saw no evidence that they

 4 were wrong.

 5 We invited Commander Becker to come to our home.

 6 It was like, okay, let's start this thing fresh.

 7 You come to our home. Let's sit down and have a

 8 cup of coffee, get to know each other. And you

 9 know what the police response back we got was? I'm

10 not going to their home, that would be to their

11 advantage.

12 Well what does that tell you? That would be to

13 their advantage. I mean we're, what are we

14 fighting here or are we trying to solve a crime.

15 So there was just no, not one demonstrable

16 instance of anything that we could put confidence

17 in that we were inviting anything but a lynch mob.

18 MIKE KANE: I just want to clarify that.

19 LOU SMIT: Do you have anything else?


21 LOU SMIT: No, go ahead.

22 MIKE KANE: No, no. Not in this case.

23 LOU SMIT: Okay. I think that's kind of a

24 chronological that kind of gets up to the hearing.

25 Now I would like to go over the specifics. And


 1 this here is academic questions about heating. And

 2 you brought up this that you heard something about

 3 pineapple. Now what have you heard about

 4 pineapple?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we were asked if JonBenet

 6 had eaten any pineapple, because apparently it was

 7 found in her system. I don't know if the police

 8 asked us that or we saw it on television or the

 9 question came up. I don't remember her eating

10 pineapple, I don't remember pineapple at Fleet's

11 or the White's house. It sort of been a very

12 logical hors d'oeuvres. I don't' remember

13 specifically if it was there.

14 I think part of the question was what did she eat

15 when she got home, and I'm sure she didn't because

16 she was absolutely sound asleep. So I don't know

17 nothing about the basis of the question.

18 LOU SMIT: That's why I wanted to show you

19 the picture. I just didn't know what you had heard

20 of this thing. I'm going to show you what's called

21 a picture of 414.

22 This is a photograph that's taken of the dining

23 room table. And it shows various things on the

24 dining room table. Do you see the gingerbread

25 houses? And then you see a bowl on that



 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

 3 LOU SMIT: What else do you see on there?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I see a glass with what looks

 5 like (INAUDIBLE). Tissues on the glass. A couple

 6 knives.

 7 LOU SMIT: Do you have any idea how that got

 8 on that table?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: It might have been (INAUDIBLE)

10 that's a big bowl.

11 LOU SMIT: I'm going to straighten out the

12 picture so we'll want a close up of everything.

13 This is a photograph of 417. what does that

14 represent there?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's a large spoon, not

16 a teaspoon. It looks like Patsy's good silver. I

17 guess that could be pineapple, I can't tell. But

18 it could be. Some people (INAUDIBLE) pineapple to

19 make it old and there's this teabag in an empty

20 glass. I can't tell, but it looks like there is

21 some milk or something.

22 LOU SMIT: Who do you know would eat

23 pineapple like that? Do you have any idea?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well the kids like pineapple,

25 but that's a big bowl and this is a big spoon and


 1 I can't imagine that the kids would have something

 2 like that at any time. Certainly not with iced

 3 tea, I don't think. They don't even drink iced

 4 tea. I think they do not. (INAUDIBLE) yeah.

 5 LOU SMIT: John, I just wanted to kind

 6 of check back with you. Now these obviously are

 7 crime scene photographs.

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

 9 LOU SMIT: And this is the condition that

10 things are found when pictures are taken. We're

11 trying to explain that, even in correlating it

12 with your daughter (INAUDIBLE)?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Could that have been

14 gotten out by someone who was in there that

15 morning, I wonder?

16 LOU SMIT: I don't know. That's a thought.

17 What do you think?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I mean I don't --

19 that's just a huge --

20 LOU SMIT: You mean somebody who had been


22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, the Fernies or the

23 Whites or, there were a lot of people in the house

24 that were -- that would not be like us to leave

25 that. Certainly not leaving the next morning on a


 1 trip, to leave it like that, out.

 2 That's a big bowl, whatever it is, if it's

 3 pineapple.

 4 MIKE KANE: Do you recognize the bowl?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know. I recognize

 6 the spoon, because it's a big serving spoon. It's

 7 not like a teaspoon. And that could be one of our

 8 bowls. We had white bowls like that. Patsy would

 9 recognize it for sure. It looks like our glass.

10 LOU SMIT: Who would drink tea with a teabag

11 in the glass?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Somebody who would drink tea,

13 I guess. I don't know. I don't drink tea. Burke

14 will drink sweet ice tea. I don't remember if

15 JonBenet did, if she did.

16 I mean, even for someone who's there and to get

17 out that big of a bowl and put that much pineapple

18 in it and just leave it. That doesn't make sense.

19 MIKE KANE: That was a serving spoon?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: It's a big serving spoon. I

21 mean don't even have an answer.

22 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE) taken out and put

23 back in the refrigerator. Could that have

24 (INAUDIBLE) where it had been?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible.


 1 MIKE KANE: Any other tea drinkers in the

 2 house?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy drank tea. She likes

 4 sweet ice tea.


 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I believe, not much, once

 7 in a while.

 8 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) sweet ice tea, you

 9 can put a tea bag (INAUDIBLE)?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, no. With sweet ice tea

11 you have to make the tea. And I don't know how you

12 do it, but she puts sugar in it or something. It's

13 a southern drink. But, no.

14 I mean, first of all, it was hot tea. You

15 wouldn't it in that kind of a glass, it was weird.

16 That doesn't make sense.

17 LOU SMIT: You see, this is the trouble.

18 That we don't know. We don't know the answer. We

19 just didn't know whether it was like that or

20 (INAUDIBLE) around it.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I would almost think that

22 (INAUDIBLE) that's Patsy's too. But that would not

23 have been left out by us where it would be for any

24 extended period of time. And that is a huge bowl

25 of pineapple or whatever it is and a big spoon.


 1 LOU SMIT: On the 26th, that was the

 2 morning of the 26th, John, do you remember eating

 3 at that time?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't, but -- No, I don't.

 5 I think there was -- I don't know, I don't

 6 remember. There might have been some coffee made

 7 or something like that. I don't think anybody was

 8 feeling to eat.

 9 LOU SMIT: Where would you keep pineapple?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: If it were opened, it would

11 have been kept in the refrigerator.

12 LOU SMIT: And that's the walk-in one?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. If it were not open,

14 it would be in the pantry. This little (INAUDIBLE)

15 was here with the cans. (INAUDIBLE) next to the

16 cans. I mean it doesn't look like -- the kids

17 wouldn't have gotten that thing and the spoon

18 down. I mean, that's huge for a child's mouth.

19 They would have gotten a little spoon or a fork.

20 They wouldn't have fixed themselves that big a

21 bowl.

22 LOU SMIT: Is this the first time that

23 you knew about this?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: It's the first time I've

25 seen it, yeah.


 1 DAVID WILLIAMS: Can we take a look at the

 2 photographs?

 3 MIKE KANE: While your doing that, could

 4 I ask, you said you had cans of pineapple normally

 5 would be kept in that pantry that's open. Do you

 6 ever by fresh pineapple (INAUDIBLE)?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: We did not, not that I remember.

 8 No. I mean, we had --

 9 LOU SMIT: What other kind of fruit did you

10 have around?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we had apples around;

12 bananas, a lot of bananas. The kids loved

13 bananas. Grapes, green grapes.

14 LOU SMIT: Where would (INAUDIBLE)

15 JOHN RAMSEY: The bananas would be hanging

16 from a little stand that was kept in the kitchen

17 over in this area. The grapes tended to be in the

18 refrigerator. I don't remember specifically.

19 LOU SMIT: Do you know if JonBenet would

20 ever get up in the middle of the night to eat

21 these things?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so. Not -- no.

23 DAVID WILLIAMS: Was that fresh? pineapple?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: No. But, no, that would be,

25 certainly not a glass that with a teabag in it. It


 1 absolutely doesn't make any sense for the kids to

 2 have left that there.

 3 LOU SMIT: Well we can come back to that later. I

 4 do want to talk about that a little bit later. You

 5 got any more questions?


 7 JOHN RAMSEY: But, I mean, it's strange.

 8 It doesn't (INAUDIBLE).

 9 LOU SMIT: This is also another picture,

10 picture 416, which also shows the same bowl, only

11 it shows the gingerbread house, and there's some

12 Kleenex on there and things of that nature. So I

13 don't know. Is that the gingerbread house that the

14 children were making?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It looks like it. This

16 was like in -- Patsy would know. I'm not sure why

17 a Kleenex box is there either. That's not normal

18 for a Kleenex box.

19 LOU SMIT: What do you say about that?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I guess it doesn't

21 belong on the kitchen table. I don't know where it

22 came from, but that's now it aught to be.

23 LOU SMIT: Well, I'm sure that Patsy is

24 going to be asked the same question. Maybe she

25 remembers more on this or not. Is it possible that


 1 that could have been left out, maybe because to be


 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I doubt it very much.

 4 LOU SMIT: Whey do you say that?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we were leaving town

 6 the next morning. We would be gone nearly for a

 7 week and a half. I've never seen a teabag left in

 8 a glass like that in our house. I know we're not

 9 the neatest people in the world, but I don't think

10 we'd have left an open bowl of fruit sitting on

11 the kitchen table.

12 LOU SMIT: All right. I'll get back to this

13 just a little bit later.

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Can I see the (INAUDIBLE).

15 LOU SMIT: Sure. I'd like to talk about

16 the window rail and the broken window that's at

17 the scene. Do you have any other areas you'd like

18 to (INAUDIBLE)? The reason that I want to talk

19 about that is, in your mind there could be a

20 potential point that (INAUDIBLE)? You're not sure

21 that we ran across that with you. Now let's just

22 talk about that a little bit.

23 You say that earlier you had gone in that same

24 window. Now, can you remember when this was or the

25 circumstances surrounding doing that?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I can't remember

 2 exactly when it was. I've done it maybe twice,

 3 maybe three times during the period of time we

 4 owned the house. It was a way that I could get in

 5 the house if we didn't have a key that was least

 6 expensive to repair. It was one single pane of

 7 non-insulated glass and.

 8 I think that was done one summer I came back late

 9 in the evening. Patsy and the kids were delayed,

10 and for some reason I didn't have a key. I don't

11 know why. But usually if I don't drive my car I

12 take a cab or something to the airport and back,

13 and I don't have a key and the house keys are on

14 the key ring.

15 But that was the time, it was in the summer I had

16 come back from a business trip. I think I had a

17 suit on. It was late. It was like about 11:30 at

18 night. It was dark. It was (INAUDIBLE) Amazingly I

19 took the grill off. I think I probably kicked the

20 window with my foot and then reached in and

21 unlatched the window.

22 LOU SMIT: Were you alone at that time?


24 LOU SMIT: First of all, now when you

25 drove home, did you drive home when you got in


 1 that late that night?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall specifically.

 3 But I think I took (INAUDIBLE) and it dropped me

 4 off.

 5 LOU SMIT: And then they dropped you off

 6 there at the house.

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 8 LOU SMIT: So you don't have a garage

 9 door opener at that time, is that what you're

10 saying?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

12 LOU SMIT: Do you normally have a garage

13 opener?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: In my car. See I have a

15 garage opener I can get in the house because we

16 never lock the door in the garage that goes in the

17 house. And that was 98 percent of the time how I

18 got in the house.

19 LOU SMIT: Where would (INAUDIBLE)?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably the garage, in the

21 garage through that door. And I think I had given

22 my key to John Andrew or somebody. I didn't have

23 it. Very rarely that I use the key to unlock the

24 door into my house because I've always had a

25 garage --


 1 LOU SMIT: You mean it's normal in the car?


 3 LOU SMIT: Okay. And at that time of night I

 4 assume you didn't want to call a locksmith for

 5 that?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I didn't have any way

 7 to call. (INAUDIBLE) I remember it was late. I

 8 could go to my neighbors.

 9 LOU SMIT: And you say the family was gone?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

11 LOU SMIT: And did you ever keys like to the

12 neighbors or anything?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well The Barnhills had a key.

14 I don't know if know if I remember that at the

15 time. It was late. I'm sure I wouldn't have gone

16 over anyway. But I always wished I would have done

17 is bury one somewhere under a rock or something.

18 One time we had one under a statute. But could

19 also be used by somebody (INAUDIBLE) So we moved

20 it.

21 LOU SMIT: Now, I'm going to show you some

22 photographs, if I can? These photographs I'm

23 showing you here right now -- initially when the

24 police were there during the kidnapping time

25 period, some kind of crime scene techs did come in


 1 and they took pictures and they did some work

 2 inside the house.

 3 But picture number 92 was taken fairly early on.

 4 Can you tell me what area that is of the house?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's the back patio,

 6 looking at the house from the south side. This is

 7 the door into the dining room. This is the door

 8 into the hallway, the back hallway. And this was

 9 early that morning?

10 LOU SMIT: Do you notice anything unusual

11 there or anything out of place?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: There's not a (INAUDIBLE)

13 for one thing. That window looks (INAUDIBLE) maybe

14 it's just a shadow.

15 LOU SMIT: I'm going to show you some

16 more of those photos that (INAUDIBLE) kidnapping

17 period.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: This is one of the kid's

19 toys. (INAUDIBLE).

20 LOU SMIT: Well, I know (INAUDIBLE) I'll

21 show it to you now and then I'll tell you what it

22 is. This here photograph is also of that window

23 area. But these were taken somewhat later. And

24 these are just crime scene photographs also.

25 Now these are photographs 418, 419, 420, 421,


 1 422,423, 424 and 425. I'm going to show you these

 2 and see if, first of all, can you explain to me

 3 how you got into that window, while I'm showing


 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well you can just lift the

 6 grate out and slide it out, lay it on the ground

 7 and then jump down into the well.

 8 LOU SMIT: And when you slide it out, what

 9 do you mean by sliding it out?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think there was a

11 couple of supports on the side (INAUDIBLE) went

12 here and just lift that up. I didn't lift it up.

13 LOU SMIT: Right, and then straight down.

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I probably lifted it

15 up and just pulled it away from the hole.

16 LOU SMIT: And then did you have any trouble

17 getting in?


19 LOU SMIT: And how much do you weigh? Right

20 about then?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably about what I do now:

22 195.

23 LOU SMIT: And you're how tall?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Five ten, nine and a half.

25 LOU SMIT: And you say that you went down


 1 in there and you had taken your clothing off?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I had my suit on, so I took

 3 my suit coat off and my pants off so I wouldn't

 4 (INAUDIBLE). I might have taken my shirt off. But

 5 it's not difficult to get in. it would be

 6 difficult to get out; you needed something to step

 7 on. But basically you just open the window and

 8 just let yourself drop down on the ground.

 9 LOU SMIT: Have you ever gotten out that

10 way?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I've (INAUDIBLE) the house.

12 LOU SMIT: Do you know anyone that has?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't.

14 LOU SMIT: So you say you just went down into

15 the window well where you kicked out the window.

16 Then what did you have to do? What's your next

17 step?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Then you had reach in to

19 unlatch the window, and if it's stuck, you just

20 pop it open. I mean, I don't remember if I slid in

21 face forward or a turned around. Probably turned

22 around, turn around backwards and put your needs

23 on the ledge here and let your feet in and then

24 just drop down. That's probably how I would have

25 done it?


 1 LOU SMIT: Now you say that the time that

 2 you went into this window, that was nighttime?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

 4 LOU SMIT: And you say it was about 11:30 at

 5 night? Obviously it would be dark at that time?

 6 What's your recollection of the difficulty of

 7 getting into the house then?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I guess I remember the

 9 unknown harm is when you drop the last foot or two

10 in the basement. Because that basement room is

11 always kind of a mess. You're not quite sure what

12 you're going to land in.

13 Once I was in the basement I could find my way to

14 the door. The light switch is over by the door. So

15 you got to be careful because there's a lot of

16 junk in there.

17 LOU SMIT: But you could make your way

18 around? Would you be able to even see?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I remember being able

20 to see real well, I think. Cause there's not

21 (INAUDIBLE) light in that basement room. So unless

22 there was light left on or something in one of the

23 rooms you wouldn't have been --

24 LOU SMIT: So even if (INAUDIBLE) you know

25 where it was? Where's the light switch at if you


 1 look at the diagram?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right here.

 3 LOU SMIT: So you're pointing just to the

 4 end of the train room table there?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. The thing that always

 6 puzzled me was, when we had the house living room

 7 was all done and we were trying to get it back

 8 together, we kept talking about that we needed to

 9 replace the closet doors that's damaged in the

10 basement. Couldn't fix it. I can remember what

11 closet door was damaged.

12 Apparently I finally found it; Ellis had cut in

13 half. But I think it was either this door or this

14 door. It was a heavy door. Because we had an

15 elevator here and we took it out.

16 LOU SMIT: Right. Right.

17 JOHN RAMSEY: And it was one of those

18 heavy doors. And I was very curious as to what

19 were they talking about the door was damaged, they

20 had to replace it. And I looked at that door in

21 Ellis's office and it was slit. But it didn't look

22 like it was -- I mean my suspicion was, that it

23 was an elevator door that you can open from the

24 outside but I don't think you can open it from the

25 inside. So I was just wondering that if something


 1 got in there and couldn't get out, did they --

 2 LOU SMIT: Push it.

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: -- push and break it open.

 4 It didn't look like that to me. But paneling was

 5 split. But I couldn't tell what was going on

 6 around the latch. But that was very perplexing to

 7 me. Whey was that door damaged? Because it was not

 8 damaged, to my knowledge.

 9 LOU SMIT: Have you run any tests on that

10 to see if it was from the inside or outside or

11 anything?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Ellis has it. Now it's in

13 storage. But that's an item of curiosity.

14 LOU SMIT: And, like anything else, those

15 items can be attached. You know, they got great

16 labs and the labs are free, and all of that stuff

17 can be done. And it would be interesting to see if

18 it was from the inside or the outside.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Because if it was that

20 door, and it was from the inside --

21 LOU SMIT: It may or may not show you

22 something.

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

24 LOU SMIT: But at least it would be

25 something that you should look at.



 2 LOU SMIT: And has the door fingerprinted

 3 anyway?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know.

 5 BRYAN MORGAN: I don't believe we have. I

 6 think when we discovered it, it was something was

 7 unfamiliar with. We gave Ellis instructions to get

 8 it and preserve it in whatever state it was that

 9 he found it. I don't know exactly when detectives

10 (INAUDIBLE) but that was some time after the house

11 was released to us.

12 LOU SMIT: Right.

13 BRYAN MORGAN: We would be happy to turn

14 over the door who wants to do any kind tests.

15 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE). In fact, that's

16 something that laboratories could do and they got

17 the equipment to do all the fingerprinting stuff

18 on three. Again, if we can speak with him.

19 BRYAN MORGAN: When he got it, then how

20 he tried to preserve it. Sure. But we are happy to

21 make that available.

22 LOU SMIT: Great. Great. But again, that

23 is the window well. And I'm going to show you some

24 photographs of the window well. And again those

25 are photographs number 418 through 425.


 1 MIKE KANE: Can I ask a quick question of

 2 John?

 3 LOU SMIT: Sure, go ahead.

 4 MIKE KANE: You said that this was in the

 5 summer. Can you be more specific (INAUDIBLE). You

 6 said that Patsy probably got delayed?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't remember exactly.

 8 I'm just guessing.

 9 MIKE KANE: When did she usually go up to --

10 JOHN RAMSEY: They went up usually in the

11 first week of June then came back in the last week

12 of August. So it would have been in that

13 timeframe.

14 MIKE KANE: And she always (INAUDIBLE)?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

16 LOU SMIT: I'll start off first with these.

17 These are photographs that were taken on the 30th

18 of December. And this is a series of photographs,

19 like I mentioned 418 through 425.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I was really (INAUDIBLE) the

21 ivy is under the grate.

22 LOU SMIT: And what does that signify to

23 you?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: That it had been moved fairly

25 recently. I would have expected that the ivy to be


 1 dead. It was (INAUDIBLE) like that

 2 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) because we had seen

 3 that also. And I don't want to mislead you.

 4 Because, obviously all of us have seen that. And

 5 at first we didn't know exactly why that was. But

 6 we think a perhaps an officer may have moved that

 7 grate. So I just wanted you to know that. Because

 8 it's very easy to make the conclusion that it was

 9 done.

10 But we have had some real discussion on this and

11 did find out that an officer had moved that grate.

12 I usually don't tell you whether we know about

13 that. But otherwise that's misleading.

14 But that's the same grate in the same area then?


16 LOU SMIT: Now you replaced that grate

17 completely with a new grate, is that correct?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think it was replaced,

19 yeah.

20 LOU SMIT: A question I'm dying to ask, does

21 anybody have any photos before the officer thinks

22 he moved the grate?


24 DAVID WILLIAMS: We can put an end to this

25 if the officer had any recollection.


 1 LOU SMIT: That's something that we're still

 2 looking into.

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Can we find out what it is that

 4 (INAUDIBLE) that the dirt and dust had been

 5 disturbed?

 6 LOU SMIT: If that's your observation, then

 7 it's good.

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: When I was there it was July,

 9 that was six months earlier.

10 LOU SMIT: I would like to just add something

11 though before we move too much further. I would

12 like to do that. (INAUDIBLE) the wind was very

13 strong in that area. Is It possible that the wind

14 could have done this? That it could have blown

15 into the --

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Disturb the --

17 LOU SMIT: Right.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have blown a lot of

19 dust in there. (INAUDIBLE) to clean it off. I

20 mean, there was a nasty window well with spider

21 wells. It was just dirty.

22 LOU SMIT: And for your information also,

23 there is some spider webs also. I just want to

24 make sure that you're not misled.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I appreciate it. I mean these


 1 spots look clean; cleaner than the rest. That's

 2 glass there. A piece of glass there. I don't know

 3 why -- I mean if there's enough wind, it kinds of

 4 kicks things up. I don't know why this would have

 5 been cleaner than the next two. I wouldn't have

 6 been down there for six months. I would have

 7 expected a more uniform (INAUDIBLE).

 8 That's kind of an odd state to be in too.

 9 LOU SMIT: Do you remember anything


11 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, maybe the top corner

12 where that little circle thing is.

13 LOU SMIT: And you're sure the last time

14 that you were in there was in the summer?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I'm sure.

16 LOU SMIT: Any questions you'd like to?

17 MIKE KANE: Well I have a lot of questions

18 about the things that we've covered. But I just

19 didn't want interrupt you.

20 LOU SMIT: Go ahead.

21 MIKE KANE: I apologize if I ask any

22 questions that have already been asked. I wanted

23 to ask you about Mike Bynum and the television

24 with Diane Sawyer. Did you have any discussions

25 with him before? Did you know he was going to


 1 come?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I knew he was going

 3 to do it. I think what he was trying -- they were

 4 after, of course, was to have us talk to him. And

 5 I think Mike felt compelled to make it very clear

 6 that he was the one basically who took control of

 7 the situation earlier on and that he had brought

 8 the attorneys in, and it wasn't the Ramseys, as we

 9 had so widely accused of. I think he wanted to

10 make that clear. And that was our venue to do

11 that.

12 MIKE KANE: So then he talked to you before

13 he went?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I knew this was going

15 to happen. But I never saw the program, so I don't

16 know what was said. I don't know if it was good or

17 bad. I heard it that it was good.

18 MIKE KANE: You never saw the program, but

19 did you see a transcript of it?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: No. It's too hard to look at

21 that stuff.

22 MIKE KANE: All right. Okay, this has been

23 kind of been covered it but I'm going to go into

24 it some more. Plane trips, you said that you had

25 headed to the plane that day, that you were going


 1 to fly it out. Did you own it and lease it?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I owned it and leased it to

 3 Mountain Aviation Charter to kind of make it pay

 4 for itself.

 5 MIKE KANE: Like a lease?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 7 MIKE KANE: And was that a King Air?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: A King Air; C90 King Air.

 9 MIKE KANE: And that's a twin-engine turbo?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

11 MIKE: How many seats?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: It will seat,

13 uncomfortably, counting the pilot and six

14 comfortably.

15 MIKE KANE: And were there any other

16 planes that you owned at that time?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I owned a Bonanza. I still do,

18 which is a small single engine.


20 JOHN RAMSEY: Straight tail.

21 MIKE KANE: Straight tail?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I bought it, maybe a

23 year before. (INAUDIBLE) who is another friend of

24 mine said, this is a great deal; buy it for the

25 summer and then sell it and not lose a dime.


 1 MIKE KANE: Was it here in Boulder?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was in Jeffco that I

 3 bought it.

 4 MIKE KANE: Who's the salesman?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Scott Westfall.

 6 MIKE KANE: Do you know a Grady Parsons?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I know the name, but I don't

 8 know why?

 9 MIKE KANE: He's your predecessor.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I think I do. He looked

11 older.


13 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, gosh. I didn't know that.

14 MIKE KANE: Did anybody else fly your

15 aircraft?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Other than the pilots at

17 Mountain Aviation, no.

18 MIKE KANE: And how many pilots flew that

19 King Air?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably four; maybe four or

21 five.

22 MIKE KANE: And your Bonanza? Anybody else

23 fly it?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Just my brother occasionally.

25 I know he has recently, but I'm not sure of the


 1 time.

 2 MIKE KANE: When you flew, did you fly as

 3 pilot command or (INAUDIBLE)?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I flew as pilot command and

 5 he was copilot.

 6 MIKE KANE: So you logged in this and


 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Yeah.

 9 MIKE KANE: And how often did you fly


11 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I used it may be 60 to

12 80 hours a year.

13 MIKE KANE: And was that mostly for business

14 trips?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was mostly for pleasure.

16 Once in a while I'd use it for business, but not

17 very often.

18 MIKE KANE: When you went on business trips,

19 did you generally fly commercial?



22 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

23 MIKE KANE: I noticed there was some

24 reference about that. That it was a citation or a

25 Lear, I don't know which one. Did Lockheed know?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Lockheed has citations on

 2 the jet, the Centennial, which technically we can

 3 use if we pay for it. (INAUDIBLE) company, but we

 4 can get it.

 5 MIKE KANE: Okay. So those times when you

 6 were in the King Air, it was with your family?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

 8 MIKE KANE: You said that you went down

 9 the say before, I guess it was Christmas day, you

10 went down to prepare. What was your reasons to

11 cleaning?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean I spend more time on

13 the airplane on the ground than I do in the air. I

14 like to keep it clean and polished. And part of it

15 is just I like airplanes. It's fun to be around

16 them. And part of it is, if it's clean then you

17 know if there's a problem, because you can see it

18 right away. If there's an oil leak or a fuel leak.

19 I just like it to look -- if it looks right, it is

20 right. Plus Melinda's, who is my (INAUDIBLE)

21 fiancTe, who's going to be with us, and I wanted

22 the airplane to look nice. Make her feel

23 comfortable. I just like it to be clean.

24 So I spent some time cleaning. I cleaned the

25 wheels; I remember that being dirty. Just getting


 1 ready for a big trip.

 2 MIKE KANE: And what was your family while

 3 you were doing this?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy was home. I guess

 5 the kids were playing. They were basically at

 6 home.

 7 MIKE KANE: Other than going to the Whites,

 8 did you have any plans for Christmas day?


10 MIKE KANE: When you went to the airport,

11 Jeffco, did you usually drive?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

13 MIKE KANE: You have a place to park there?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I park near Steven's

15 Aviation, yeah.

16 MIKE KANE: How about when you flew

17 commercially?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I would quite often take a

19 limo. Because it was no more expensive than a

20 taxicab and a lot more comfortable. It was just a

21 long drive out there and it was just easier than

22 driving and parking.

23 MIKE KANE: When you say a limo, when I

24 think of limo I think of (INAUDIBLE) pile in.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: No, this was like a --


 1 MIKE KANE: Limousine.

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Sometimes they would

 3 pull up in these big.


 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I mean it was a

 6 limousine service and we use to use it like if we

 7 had customers that came in town we'd have them

 8 sometimes.

 9 MIKE KANE: A Boulder service or a Denver --

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was placed in

11 Denver. Admiral Limousine.

12 MIKE KANE: Admiral?


14 MIKE KANE: On the trip to Charlevoix --

15 is that how you pronounce it? Charlevoix?


17 MIKE KANE: So you find the Kind Air. Did

18 you normally have a copilot?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I normally took a pilot with

20 me.

21 MIKE KANE: And was there any reason than

22 obviously you're (INAUDIBLE)?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) safety. I wasn't

24 terribly (INAUDIBLE) I didn't fly every week. I

25 just felt safer, and it wasn't a big expense to


 1 take a pilot. Mark Archuleta normally flew with

 2 me. He was a friend. He was nice to have around.

 3 We took him to Charlevoix I always took some work

 4 up there, so it was --

 5 MIKE KANE: That's what I want to ask you?

 6 What would he do when you --

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: He stayed with us in the house.

 8 If we had work to do, he'd pitch in. If we wanted

 9 a babysitter, he'd watch the kids. He was great.

10 MIKE KANE: And how long were you intending

11 to stay in Charlevoix?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: When it comes to the days, I

13 don't remember. I believe we were leaving for this

14 Big Red Boat thing on Saturday morning, and we

15 were planning to come back on Friday from

16 Charlevoix.

17 MIKE KANE: Okay.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: and I think the 26th was

19 Tuesday or Wednesday. I don't remember.

20 LOU SMIT: Maybe we should look at a

21 calendar.

22 MIKE KANE: Yeah.

23 BRYAN MORGAN: There are records of the

24 Big Red Boat reservations.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: We had bought and paid for


 1 the tickets.

 2 LOU SMIT: We'll nail it down.

 3 BRYAN MORGAN: The 26th was a Thursday.

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Thursday.

 5 MIKE KANE: So Wednesday was Christmas.

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well that doesn't make sense,

 7 then. Let's see. So the 26th was Thursday, so we

 8 would have gone on Thursday morning. I don't think

 9 we were going to stay one night. I'd have to look

10 and say when the Big Red Boat --

11 MIKE KANE: I guess Patsy's birthday was on

12 the --

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Her birthday was on the 29th.

14 I thought we were going to be there already. I

15 don't remember. But we can figure it out.

16 MIKE KANE: So you were going to fly back

17 to Jeffco?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

19 MIKE KANE: The day before you went to --

20 I guess you had to go to Florida to get there?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, we had to go to Orlando

22 to take a bus, from Orlando to Cape Canaveral and

23 take a bus.

24 MIKE KANE: So you would fly back in the

25 day before, fly out, I think you said TWA?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 2 MIKE KANE: And you're leaving on the boat

 3 that day or did you fly down and then you would

 4 leave the next day?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I think we were doing

 6 this boom, boom, boom. Then we were going to be on

 7 the boat that night.

 8 MIKE KANE: And how long a trip was that

 9 going to be?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: It was maybe four days. It

11 was over through New Year's Eve. I don't know if

12 we were came back New Year's day or the next day,

13 but it was a four-day trip.

14 MIKE KANE: And then would you come straight

15 back here?


17 MIKE KANE: That's all I have.

18 LOU SMIT: I just have one more window.

19 MIKE KANE: I mean, I have other areas.

20 LOU SMIT: What I'm going to show is

21 photograph number 252. In fact, I'll maybe hold it

22 up for the camera, and I'll ask Mr. Ramsey, what

23 does that show?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it shows the window

25 open and the suitcase. But the suitcase, when I


 1 first saw it, the suitcase was flat up against the

 2 wall and for some reason I felt like that window

 3 opened to the other side.

 4 LOU SMIT: Any other observations that you


 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I realize it

 7 looks like just kind of marks on the wall, but I

 8 can't --

 9 LOU SMIT: On the diagram, John, can you

10 show us where that is?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: We're here.

12 LOU SMIT: Now is that the area that you

13 observed earlier on the 26th and then a little bit

14 later with Fleet White?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

16 LOU SMIT: Does that look similar to that?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Except for when I was there

18 the suitcase was flat up against the wall.

19 MIKE KANE: When you say flat up against the

20 wall, how do you mean?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: It was standing up like this,

22 only it the light surface was against the wall.

23 LOU SMIT: You said you moved it? Did you

24 mention that?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I moved it a bit just to see


 1 if there was glass. It's funny how you remember

 2 things. I swear that window opened from the other

 3 side. I guess other than that, I can't see

 4 anything.

 5 LOU SMIT: Now is this the suitcase you

 6 described as John Andrew's suitcase?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it was -- I mean, it

 8 looks like it. It looks a little darker but I

 9 think it's cause the room is darker. It was like a

10 hard case, a Samsonite suitcase that I think, I

11 think, John Andrew when he came to college, he

12 brought all his stuff out and left it at our

13 house.

14 LOU SMIT: Now you said that you picked up

15 pieces of glass.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

17 LOU SMIT: A few little pieces.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

19 LOU SMIT: And did you say you put them on

20 the window well or on the suitcase or do you

21 remember?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember for sure.

23 There wasn't enough there for me to be convinced

24 that the window was broken that morning. I was

25 assuming that it had been broken by me and it


 1 hadn't really been fixed.

 2 LOU SMIT: And I'm just going to show you

 3 another photograph here. I want to talk to you

 4 again a little bit, if I can, about the

 5 flashlight. Okay?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

 7 LOU SMIT: You said you kept in a drawer

 8 where? Can you point out to that?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, normally it was just

10 in a drawer in this little bar area in the

11 hallway.

12 LOU SMIT: On another interview, were you

13 shown a picture of a flashlight?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I was shown a picture of a

15 scarf and a picture in which there was a

16 flashlight in the background, and not just of a

17 flashlight.

18 LOU SMIT: Okay. I'm going to show you a

19 photograph that I've got out of labeled Book Four.

20 And I'll show it to the camera. And I'd like it,

21 if you can, to tell me what you see there?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it looks like a MAG

23 like kind of flashlight there. But that looks like

24 maybe a plane or (INAUDIBLE) or something.

25 LOU SMIT: Does that look like flashlight


 1 that you have or does --

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, it could be. It

 3 looks a little bigger than the one I had. But it

 4 could have been the same one.

 5 LOU SMIT: Were you ever shown the

 6 flashlight?


 8 LOU SMIT: Where does that flashlight

 9 appear to be here?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's on the kitchen

11 counter.

12 LOU SMIT: Can you point on the diagram

13 where that is?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: It's right here. (INAUDIBLE)

15 is right there.

16 LOU SMIT: Do you have any idea how it got

17 there?


19 LOU SMIT: Did you put it there?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not that I recall.

21 LOU SMIT: Did you use a flashlight at all

22 that morning to look for JonBenet?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so. There was

24 no reason to turn the lights on. I wouldn't even

25 bet that our flashlight worked. If I were to bet,


 1 I'll bet it wouldn't work. We just didn't keep up

 2 with that.

 3 LOU SMIT: When you had that flashlight,

 4 did you ever put batteries in it? Do you remember?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I might have once. Certainly

 6 probably initially. We have a flashlight in the

 7 car also, but it's a smaller thing.

 8 LOU SMIT: Was that a MAG light?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was a smaller one.

10 You've got to show this to John Andrew. He might

11 remember because he bought it for me.

12 LOU SMIT: Do you know when he got it for

13 you?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: No. It was like a father's

15 day or birthday or Christmas present. It may have

16 been a year or two before. And it looks kind of

17 big. But it could have been the same one.

18 LOU SMIT: I'm going to show you another

19 photograph now. And this here is, it came off the

20 video camera. And I do have a larger picture of

21 this. And perhaps you can answer the question and

22 perhaps and perhaps you can't.

23 I would like you to take a look at this

24 photograph. And, again, this one is not numbered.

25 It's just a Sony video print. And I would like to


 1 ask you what that appears to you? And, again, if

 2 you don't know what it is, that's fine. And if you

 3 do, that's fine. It's not a very good picture.

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like a bag with a

 5 plastic container or something in it with a point

 6 or two.

 7 LOU SMIT: I just don't recall if you had

 8 ever seen that item before.

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: I can't even tell where it's

10 at for sure. It's a Tupperware cup, but I don't

11 know what it is.

12 LOU SMIT: I'll hold that up to the camera.

13 Okay. This here that I'm going to show you now,

14 John, during the kidnap phase of this there was

15 some photographs taken, and I'm sure this is

16 probably the very first time you've been shown

17 many photographs (INAUDIBLE).

18 And we're doing this for a couple of reasons. And

19 the police are right, you shouldn't show the

20 photographs in an ongoing investigation. But you

21 can show photographs, and I feel that they should

22 be shown because I would like to know. You know

23 your house better than anyone. These are

24 photographs that were taken at a time you hadn't

25 even found JonBenet's body yet.


 1 We can't spend a whole great length of time on

 2 this, but I would like to spend some time. And I'd

 3 like you to just look at the photographs and see

 4 if you can see anything that's out of place that

 5 don't belong there. Something that may have been

 6 taken that's missing. Or something that the killer

 7 may have left in the house.

 8 A lot of time they'll take things out, but you

 9 just don't remember what it is because you haven't

10 taken the photographs, you don't know that.

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

12 LOU SMIT: And that's why, I know my others

13 have discussed this, we decided to show

14 photographs of the scene at this time. And I've

15 got too let you know that the police department

16 did go along with this. So they're not -- I know

17 that there's hard feelings on this. I just want to

18 let you know that.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, as I said earlier, if

20 we're wrong, we owe a lot of apologies.

21 LOU SMIT: I know. I know. Well, I'm just

22 going to -- Mr. Morgan, you can look at it as

23 well. If you see something that you don't

24 understand or something that looks out of place,

25 we'll take notes of this.


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: That is.

 2 LOU SMIT: He's pointing to photograph two


 4 JOHN RAMSEY: This photograph two, is

 5 (INAUDIBLE) her bed. I don't know where her pillow

 6 is. I mean the pillow on her bed.

 7 MIKE KANE: Excuse me. I think we were

 8 just wondering if were going to five? Is that the

 9 plan.

10 LOU SMIT: Why don't we just stop for

11 tonight if that's a --

12 MIKE KANE: Because we're done.

13 LOU SMIT: Why don't we just stop right

14 here and we'll show these in the morning. We'll go

15 over these tomorrow.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I guess the one thing is,

17 where's the pillow.

18 DAVID WILLIAMS: What time tomorrow?

19 LOU SMIT: Does nine o'clock tomorrow

20 sound okay?







 1 _________________________________________________







 8 _________________________________________________





13 VOLUME 2 OF 4

14 PAGES 259 - 432





19 JUNE 24, 1998


































 1 LOU SMIT: Okay. For the purposes of the tape,

 2 today is Wednesday the 24th of June, 1998, and

 3 it's just about a minute after nine in the

 4 morning. Present in the room, and we'll just do

 5 it by voice again. I'm Lou Smit, John Ramsey,

 6 Bryan Morgan, David Williams and Mike Kane.

 7 We left off yesterday and we were looking at

 8 some photos. And I'm just going to change things

 9 a little bit. We're still going to look at the

10 photos. And I'd just like to ask you John, do you

11 the (INAUDIBLE) Entrepreneurial magazine that they

12 have? You were both, I guess, (INAUDIBLE) of the

13 years?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes. It wasn't quite that

15 good.

16 LOU SMIT: Okay. Tell me a little bit

17 about that?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: It's free, right?

19 LOU SMIT: Yes.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, it was free. It's a

21 offshoot of the Boulder Chamber of Commerce that

22 focuses on entrepreneurs in business and privately

23 owned businesses and (INAUDIBLE). And one year I

24 was, I think, was going to be awarded Entrepreneur

25 of the station or something like that.


 1 And as part of that, we gave tours of our business

 2 to anybody who wanted to come in. And we spoke to

 3 a group. We told them about the business, what

 4 made us successful, what were the issues and just

 5 kind of a --

 6 I think that the program is to encourage

 7 entrepreneurs in business development. And so we

 8 did that. I think it was in '95. I don't remember.

 9 But we had there was a day when Axis (INAUDIBLE)

10 was open to the public and we had that in the

11 conference room and people came in and we talked

12 to them for an hour.

13 We got the award and it was real quick. Twenty

14 seconds, thank you.

15 LOU SMIT: Do you remember who would have

16 been present at during that time. If it wasn't a

17 large group of people?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: In the room? In the conference?

19 LOU SMIT: Yeah.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: You know what, I don't.

21 Because

22 most of them I didn't know. There was one lady who

23 approached me afterwards who was in the public

24 relations business or advertising business, and

25 she acted like, I really wanted to come and learn


 1 about the business.

 2 So she gave me her business card. (INAUDIBLE)

 3 doing a job interview; solicitation. And she

 4 popped up again later. She was a little bit of

 5 an odd duck, I thought. I really couldn't tell

 6 you who she was.

 7 And other than that, nobody really stood out in

 8 my mind.

 9 LOU SMIT: Were you competing with

10 anybody (INAUDIBLE)?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: For that? No, it was given

12 to three, four or five people. And there wasn't

13 any competition.

14 LOU SMIT: What I have here is a photograph

15 here that's labeled 23-12, and this for the

16 camera. It's a photograph of an entrepreneurial

17 magazine, and it was found at the scene. And it's

18 something that kind of caught our attention from

19 the standpoint that there is writing on this. Now

20 take a look at that.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: (WHISTLE). That's weird.

22 LOU SMIT: Why do you say that?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's got Ray. It's

24 got "no, no, no" written on the three faces, one

25 of whom is the guy from Corporate Express, I


 1 think. What does it say? "Heart" "Two Hearts."

 2 Where was this found?

 3 LOU SMIT: It was found in the house. I'm

 4 not sure of the exact location. It's a piece of

 5 evidence that was taken that morning.

 6 DAVID WILLIAMS: I'm sorry, I misunderstood.

 7 Did you say it was found in the house?

 8 LOU SMIT: In the Ramsey's house.


10 LOU SMIT: What do you see in that picture,

11 John, that seems like it -- have you ever seen

12 that article before?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I don't think I ever had.

14 LOU SMIT: Can you describe the writing on it?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like --

16 LOU SMIT: I can get a bigger copy of that.

17 JOHN RAMSEY: It's weird.

18 LOU SMIT: It was in a folder of some kind.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know. I mean,

20 I didn't, I'm not. This was a very nice event and

21 a nice award. But it wasn't a big deal for me. And

22 I don't even know if we saved any of this stuff.

23 It was a nice thing. But that is bizarre.

24 It shows a heart and I can't quite figure out what

25 that is across the face.


 1 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) identify any

 2 one of those as your picture.

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think that's my picture,

 4 but I can't --

 5 LOU SMIT: But it's written on your picture,

 6 is that correct?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, yeah, it looks like

 8 it's my picture.

 9 LOU SMIT: Could Patsy or would JonBenet

10 would have written that?


12 LOU SMIT: Are you sure?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely. That is very

14 strange.

15 LOU SMIT: Well the reason why it has come

16 to our attention, JonBenet, did you ever read or

17 hear anything about her in the autopsy report?

18 That she had a heart on her hand?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I heard that just recently.

20 LOU SMIT: And the heart was in red ink? I

21 don't know what that means. You got any thoughts

22 on that?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: My thoughts, after I thought

24 about it was, she wouldn't have drawn on herself

25 like that.


 1 LOU SMIT: Have you ever seen her draw

 2 on herself?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, they get stuff on their

 4 hands. But I don't ever remember her drawing on

 5 herself. I mean, certainly, it was Christmas, she

 6 was dressed up. She was clean, she was getting at

 7 the age where she started to notice what she wore,

 8 and she wanted to look real nice.

 9 Anyway, after I heard that I thought about that,

10 and she wouldn't have written on her hand like

11 that.

12 LOU SMIT: You say that you played with

13 her at the Whites.

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

15 LOU SMIT: And that you made these little

16 jewelry things. Do you think you were in close

17 proximity with her where you would have noticed

18 that?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely. I mean we sat on

20 the floor and made these little -- we took little

21 strips of paper and we rolled them up on a little

22 axle, (INAUDIBLE) beads, paper that you glue, and

23 they had a holder, and the idea was you make a

24 bunch of them and put them on a string and you got

25 a necklace. And we sat and made, I don't know,


 1 half a dozen. And she would cut them out and then

 2 I would roll them up for her.

 3 If that ties, somehow that ties to that, I don't

 4 know. I don't believe it, no. I do not believe

 5 that she would draw a little heart on her hand

 6 in the same kind of ink.

 7 LOU SMIT: And we don't know that, and they

 8 don't know that.

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: That has got to be weird.

10 LOU SMIT: Well it's just evidence that

11 was

12 taken right off the bat. It's just that it's out

13 of place and this article and the thought little

14 girl having a heart on her hand.

15 Now what we have to try to figure out is, first of

16 all, where did that come from?

17 MIKE KANE: Excuse me. Was it in a newspaper?

18 LOU SMIT: An article in the newspaper. And

19 we wondered who wrote that article. First of all,

20 they're going to ask if you know the existence of

21 it. Then if you knew who may have written.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recognize this article.

23 All I remember was they had me put out a glossy

24 brochure that advertise the whole event. And the

25 picture was in it. I guess that only (INAUDIBLE).


 1 LOU SMIT: And then again, if we wanted

 2 to talk about the heart on JonBenet's hand. People

 3 that may have been there that night at the Whites

 4 may have seen that heart.

 5 Did she say anything about a heart? There as some

 6 mention, I think, of a secret Santa Claus. We

 7 don't know that. It's just that that's why it's

 8 good for us to sit down with you, because you know

 9 your daughter better than -- and so does your

10 wife.


12 LOU SMIT: And if we can sit down and

13 talk about these things, how are we going to know

14 the answers. So it's a question we have all

15 because that exists.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Do you know where that was

17 found in the house?

18 LOU SMIT: I will find that out specifically.

19 This was the piece of evidence was found in --

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that is very bizarre.

21 LOU SMIT: Also, another question. Have

22 you ever seen pictures of your daughter in the

23 basement of your residence?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: At any time, you mean?

25 LOU SMIT: At any point.


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Of our house?

 2 LOU SMIT: Is it possible they could be

 3 down there?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, pictures of her?

 5 LOU SMIT: Yeah, pictures of her.

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: It's unlikely. We tend to

 7 keep

 8 all our photographs in a drawer in a particular

 9 study. What we call the study. There were some

10 small pictures that were down there that we just

11 didn't have a place for, but (INAUDIBLE).

12 LOU SMIT: Would they have been pictures

13 of her

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not of her, I wouldn't think.

15 I only think there were a couple pictures down

16 there of a flower pot or something that we didn't

17 want in the house, so they just ended up in the

18 basement. But I don't know of any pictures of her

19 in the basement.

20 LOU SMIT: I'll try to sign specifically

21 today where that was found. I had an idea where it

22 was found, but I don't want to say it because I'm

23 not sure and I'd rather (INAUDIBLE).

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Could you tell us, when

25 you've


 1 seen the larger photograph, could you see what

 2 this scrawling is?

 3 LOU SMIT: I haven't been able to make

 4 that out as yet. It's kind of a scrawl.

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: And I see it's inside like

 6 a magazine?

 7 LOU SMIT: Right. Well, it's in a folder

 8 of some kind. You know like a folder that would

 9 include (INAUDIBLE) books. It was just a curious

10 thing with us.

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I'm extremely --

12 LOU SMIT: But you said that JonBenet

13 didn't

14 write on her hands?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember her doing

16 that.

17 LOU SMIT: Do you remember washing her

18 hands or cleaning up her -- as the Whites are

19 cleaning up before or anything of that nature?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: She was pretty good about

21 cleanliness. She always took a bath (INAUDIBLE)

22 daily, I think. I think she was getting to paying

23 attention to her grooming. I don't specifically

24 remember her washing her hands.

25 LOU SMIT: But could you specifically


 1 tell

 2 us of a time --

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Where she washed her hands?

 4 In fact, Patsy was always after the kids to wash

 5 their hands before dinner when they came in from

 6 playing. So she would know.

 7 LOU SMIT: Okay. Because that is important

 8 that we know that.

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: But I don't think she would

10 have drawn a heart on her hand. The trouble with

11 that piece of information, which is very bizarre.

12 Something is amiss there.

13 LOU SMIT: Okay. So we can investigate

14 that

15 there.


17 JOHN RAMSEY: The person who did this

18 obviously (INAUDIBLE) clues to tantalize us. And

19 that's just another one (INAUDIBLE).

20 LOU SMIT: Do you have any red paint in

21 the house or would there be a marker like that?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, we probably do. We had

23 pencils and magic markers all over the place.

24 LOU SMIT: Okay. we'll get off that subject

25 for just a little while, may be I'll come back to


 1 it later. I'm going to just touch a little bit on

 2 presents, okay?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

 4 LOU SMIT: And I wanted to do that and

 5 kind

 6 of lead into various photographs, okay? I've got

 7 photographs of the wine cellar. And these were

 8 taken during the course of the crime scene

 9 investigation. And it shows various presents in

10 the wine cellar. And I just had a couple questions

11 on that.

12 It's 263, 264, 265, 266, 267 -- I'm sorry. We'll

13 eliminate those 266, 267 and 268. we'll just

14 concentrate on the first three. And we'll just

15 show that to the camera and that will make up

16 somewhat of an image. Do you have any comments

17 about that, or does anything that looks out of

18 place? Because you're the one that knows basically

19 your house.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy had gotten a bunch

21 of gifts at FAO Swartz up in New York in early

22 December, some of which were for them were for

23 Burke's birthday, which was in January. She didn't

24 know they were in the closet exactly,

25 But the cigar box -- I had some cigars that I kept


 1 in the basement because it was kind of humid. And

 2 that looks like (INAUDIBLE) like they where the

 3 tobacco (INAUDIBLE).


 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, at least Monte Christo's

 6 were there.

 7 LOU SMIT: Can you remember if it was a full

 8 box (INAUDIBLE) cigars?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: I had taken two out, so

10 it should have been reasonably full. I can't quite

11 tell. It's like it's upside down, maybe. Or dumped

12 over.

13 LOU SMIT: You notice how the packages seem

14 to be partially opened. Can you explain this?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I can't.

16 LOU SMIT: So Patsy had gone there and

17 just kind looked to see what was (INAUDBILE)?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible. (INAUDIBLE) I mean,

19 you can figure out what's in them. The cigar box

20 was sitting on a paint can, or something like

21 that. And I believe it shouldn't have.

22 LOU SMIT: So it wasn't in the place

23 where it had been. It's not on the floor?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: And if I interpret the picture,

25 it's looks like it's kind of almost upside down on


 1 the floor.

 2 LOU SMIT: And that's not where you remember

 3 it being?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't notice any of the

 5 stuff that was in the room. I was surprised I

 6 didn't. all I saw was JonBenet.

 7 When I put the cigar box in that room, the reason

 8 that I set it down here, over here on a paint can

 9 or something, and I just stuck it down there

10 because it was humid.

11 LOU SMIT: So it was on a paint can?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: It was, yeah.

13 LOU SMIT: If you want to look at these,

14 just the photographs on this side.

15 MIKE KANE: How often did you smoke a cigar?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I couldn't smoke in the house.

17 And JonBenet would actually get after me if I

18 smoked or drank a beer. So the only time I would

19 smoke a cigar is if I drove to the airport or

20 something like that. So, once or twice a week,

21 maybe.

22 MIKE KANE: Those cigars I see are to be

23 Cuban, you must have gotten them out of the

24 country?



 1 MIKE: Where did you get them from?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I used to go to Europe two

 3 or three times a year.

 4 MIKE KANE: So you sneaked them back through

 5 Customs?


 7 MIKE KANE: I'm a former Fed.

 8 LOU SMIT: Okay. This here is a photograph.

 9 (INAUDIBLE) you golf clubs, okay? Now, you're a

10 golfer, I assume?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: I can claim that.

12 LOU SMIT: Now this is a -- just take a

13 look at this. This is actually a photograph of

14 golf clubs. It's located down near the wine cellar

15 in the basement. And I just wanted you to take a

16 look and see if you see anything in regards to

17 that that seems out of place, or maybe if any

18 clothes are missing there?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't see anything that

20 looks odd. Looks like there's two woods in the

21 bag. I think I have three and I can't really tell

22 if there's three or not. There's a putter, eight

23 irons, seven or eight. (INAUDIBLE) I don't see,

24 no.

25 LOU SMIT: By the way, that's photograph


 1 number 374. And that photograph was taken during

 2 the crime scene investigation after the search

 3 warrant was obtained. So that was after.

 4 Now I have photographs 72 and 71. And these are

 5 photographs taken during what we can describe as

 6 the kidnapping phase, when the crime scene techs

 7 were there. And that's before the body was found.

 8 And I wanted to show you this. This was taken

 9 earlier that morning. And I want you to take a

10 look at these photos and do you see anything out

11 of place and anything which would draw your

12 attention, or if anything is missing that you can

13 remember?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's obviously been

15 moved around some. This bag has been moved, looks

16 like.

17 MIKE KANE: Which one are you referring to?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: A purple bag with my name on

19 it.

20 MIKE KANE: From where to where?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it looks like it's been

22 moved down off the pile, because it's usually

23 here. This laundry basket doesn't show in here.

24 LOU SMIT: So it looks like something has

25 been moved between the time this picture was taken


 1 and this picture was taken?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like this cane

 3 has been moved. It's hard to tell from the

 4 picture.


 6 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like those little

 7 marks

 8 are right on the heel in the back hallway.

 9 LOU SMIT: I wanted to direct your attention,

10 if you could, John. This photograph 71, and

11 especially in the entryways there and into the

12 various rooms. Now this must have been taken

13 fairly early on the morning of the 26th.

14 Can you describe what you see there? Is there

15 anything out of place or is there anything

16 different from the way you remember it. Because

17 you said you went down into that area.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: What is difference is, I

19 think that the door is blocked by this drum table.

20 Here's the chair I said was brought to the door.

21 And it's not. I moved the chair to get into the

22 door.

23 If this was taken before I was down there -- well

24 I put it back. When I went down there, that chair

25 was kind of blocking that entrance right there.


 1 And there was something else on the other side,

 2 whatever it was. But all I had to do was move that

 3 chair, then I walked into the room.

 4 LOU SMIT: That's the first time down?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. In this picture here,

 6 I would have had to move that drum table and the

 7 Easter basket in that room. So that's different.

 8 LOU SMIT: So you say that that's been moved.

 9 Which way would you say that's been moved?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember the Easter

11 baskets there at all. But it would have had to

12 have been moved. The drum table was over, and the

13 chair was also blocking the door.

14 LOU SMIT: So do you think that the chair

15 would block the door and nobody would have gotten

16 in there without moving it?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Correct.

18 LOU SMIT: In other words, let's say

19 that the intruder goes into the training room,

20 gets out, let's say, that window?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

22 LOU SMIT: How in effect would he get

23 that chair to block that door, if that is the

24 case, is what I'm saying?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. All I'm saying


 1 is, that is different than when I went down there.

 2 LOU SMIT: Okay, let's say that you go down

 3 there?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. All I want to show

 5 is that that chair was kind of sitting right in

 6 here, and there was something else here. I don't

 7 know what it was. It could have been that


 9 LOU SMIT: You go down, that's what you see?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I go down, I say, ooh, that door

11 is blocked. I move the chair and went in the room.

12 LOU SMIT: So you couldn't have gotten in

13 without moving the chair?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Correct.

15 LOU SMIT: And the door was opened or closed?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: It was opened.

17 LOU SMIT: The door was opened?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: correct.

19 LOU SMIT: Okay.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: In that picture, it looks like

21 -- I came in on this side of the door (INAUDIBLE)

22 and would have had to remove that drum table and

23 the Easter basket.

24 MIKE KANE: Which side are you talking about?

25 The inner side or the lock side?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: If I had the door open it

 2 must be the lock side. That chair was right there

 3 when I went down there, on the lock sided of the

 4 door.

 5 MIKE KANE: On the opposite the hinges.

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. And I moved it and

 7 entered the room. And in that picture --

 8 LOU SMIT: And you don't know if you were

 9 the first one down there?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I thought I -- Well the police,

11 they probably went through the house a bit. I

12 don't know where they went. I heard later that

13 Fleet White claimed he went through the basement

14 alone. I don't know if that was before or after I

15 did alone.

16 LOU SMIT: That's why we're trying to

17 determine your time. If you can get that down.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I wish I can tell

19 you precisely, but it had to be -- you see I think

20 when the first uniformed officer came, French, he

21 very quickly said, I want all you people in the

22 room, and then people started showing in this

23 room, which was the solarium where he talked, is

24 the solarium.

25 And then some other officers came and I my


 1 impression at that time was that they did a

 2 cursory check of the house. One of the uniformed

 3 house went through the house. That had been fairly

 4 early.


 6 JOHN RAMSEY: We don't. I think it's between

 7 6:00 and 6:30. So that person should have been the

 8 first one to go through the house.

 9 I went in the basement, certainly before we were

10 getting ready for the call. (INAUDIBLE) until

11 eight, so that would have been eight o'clock. So

12 we were preparing for that. By 7:30, let's say,

13 and Fleet and I were talking about what we were

14 going to say.

15 LOU SMIT: Would that have been before

16 then or after?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have been before

18 then I believe.

19 LOU SMIT: So it was before eight o'clock?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: That's right. (INAUDIBLE) I'm

21 trying to reconstruct in it my mind.

22 LOU SMIT: But when you went to the train

23 room, you had move these things in order to get

24 into the train room?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I had to move the chair.


 1 LOU SMIT: The thing I'm trying to figure

 2 out in my mind then is, if an intruder went

 3 through the door, he'd almost have to pull the

 4 chair behind him.

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. That's correct.


 7 LOU SMIT: Because that would have been

 8 his exit?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

10 LOU SMIT: Okay.

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was blocked. He'd

12 have to move something to get into the room.

13 LOU SMIT: And he would have had to move

14 it back, if he was in there trying to get out, is

15 that correct?


17 LOU SMIT: So that's not very logical as

18 far as --

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it is. I mean if this

20 person is that bizarrely clever to have not left

21 any good evidence, but left all these little funny

22 little clues around, they certain are clever

23 enough to pull the chair back when they left.

24 LOU SMIT: But it was your impression that

25 that chair was blocking that door?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. The chair and something

 2 else. But it certainly wasn't the Easter baskets.

 3 They were sitting there on the drum table. So I

 4 never touched them. I just moved the chair and

 5 went in.

 6 LOU SMIT: And that's one of the things

 7 that we have to really get clear, because the

 8 photographs were taken fairly early that morning.

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: But I think the question is,

10 would a police officer have done that? Probably

11 not. Would Fleet White have done that? I don't

12 know. Just looking at this picture, it doesn't

13 appear to me that that chair had anything to do

14 with the door. But, you know, geez, I wish I could

15 remember. But I don't remember moving that. I

16 really don't. all I remember is kind of moving the

17 chair and walking in.

18 LOU SMIT: And sometimes the photograph

19 perspective is a little bit different. You don't

20 really have the perspective on the photograph. But

21 that's why we just wanted to clarify that. In

22 effect, it's just a question that I had.

23 JOHN RAMSEY: So this was taken -- okay.

24 No, I don't see anything else. I was looking at

25 the latch on the door.


 1 LOU SMIT: What's you --

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: No, they look like they were

 3 in the same position. Well I can't see them in

 4 both pictures. They were taken at the same time?

 5 LOU SMIT: That's 71 and 72 could have been.

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't see anything else.

 7 LOU SMIT: Okay. I'm going to hit one more

 8 area, and then Mike I wondered if you had some

 9 areas that you wanted to get into?

10 MIKE KANE: Um hmm.

11 LOU SMIT: So just one more area. Everybody

12 has heard about -- I can't say that. What have you

13 heard about a paint tray?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Just what I read, or tried

15 not to read. But can't help but hear the media

16 that tell us a broken paintbrush that was used as

17 part of the -- you see, I found JonBenet. I never

18 saw a cord or that sort of thing. I thought I saw

19 a cord, but I didn't focus on it or realize there

20 was anything in the way of a twister, which

21 apparently it was.

22 It apparently was a paintbrush. And that's based

23 on what I heard in the media. That's my

24 impression. That's all I really heard.

25 LOU SMIT: Your impression then of that


 1 literature then, what did you picture that to be

 2 in your mind? I mean, you hadn't seen it?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I did remember -- I mean,

 4 the cord on her arms was kind of an unusual cord.

 5 It wasn't a piece of twine or heavy string or

 6 anything like that. It was like a drawstring out

 7 of a coat or something. It was woven kind of cord.

 8 (INAUDIBLE) apparently around the neck, I guess

 9 the same stuff. That's all I really noticed.

10 LOU SMIT: I'd like to show you a series

11 photographs. It starts at photograph 175, 178, 181

12 -- excuse me, 179, 180 and 181. and I'd just like

13 to show these photographs to you. Mr. Ramsey, I'll

14 just show them briefly for the camera. I know it's

15 hard to pick up completely but I'll show you

16 anyway, the front and back.

17 If you'll take a look at those and let me know,

18 first of all, what in fact is that? It's a tray

19 but --

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's a tray of artist's

21 brushes; it looks like, which I presume was Patsy

22 and JonBenet's. They liked to paint together.

23 Looks like some paints. Can't tell what that is on

24 that side.

25 LOU SMIT: And you're pointing to --



 2 LOU SMIT: To the right side as you're

 3 looking at it?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 5 LOU SMIT: And that's photograph 178, by

 6 the way.

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like it's sitting

 8 outside the door of the wine cellar. Were these

 9 pictures (INAUDIBLE)?

10 LOU SMIT: I can't say, but I don't believe

11 that you can see it in the others.


13 LOU SMIT: But their perspective may

14 different.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't remember seeing

16 those in those other pictures, or this for that

17 matter. But I'd have to look at them again to see

18 if that was from a different perspective.

19 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) those two on the

20 top here. I can show you where they have the

21 handwriting.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I can't even tell.

23 I'd say it looks like art supplies and then some

24 paint. That's painting Patsy had painted.

25 LOU SMIT: That's on photograph 178?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Looks like stuff I

 2 couldn't recognize as some paper towel in this

 3 picture. I don't know what this is.

 4 LOU SMIT: That's 182. That's just a

 5 photograph of a -- What is that photograph of?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like the blanket

 7 on the concrete floor. And that's quite possible.

 8 It could have been the white blanket she was

 9 wrapped in.

10 LOU SMIT: Where was that blanket on her

11 kept?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. Patsy said

13 that it came off her bed.

14 LOU SMIT: Is it something that was on

15 JonBenet's bed?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, according to Patsy,

17 yeah. That was the blanket that was on her bed.

18 No, I just can't tell what that is. I don't know.

19 LOU SMIT: That's on photograph 182?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

21 LOU SMIT: And you're pointing to a little

22 shiny object?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, it looks like -- yeah.

24 These other pictures could have been pictures that

25 Patsy used for examples of things to paint of. She


 1 could answer that. Yeah.

 2 LOU SMIT: Sorry to be getting a little bit

 3 into these other kinds of areas I want to cover

 4 but --

 5 MIKE KANE: I'm not asking very much here

 6 but, I do have a whole series. As long as we can.

 7 I may cover some stuff that (INAUDIBLE), but I

 8 have no problem with that. It's okay.

 9 LOU SMIT: There's also photographs 183

10 and 184 that are taken in conjunction with that.

11 Photographs of the wine cellar floor. And I want

12 to show this to Mr. Ramsey. These, again, were

13 crime scene photographs after the search warrant

14 was obtained. If you have --

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it looks like it could

16 be a Christmas ornament. It looks a little bit

17 (INAUDIBLE) like the hook of the top of a

18 Christmas ornament. It wouldn't be unusual to find

19 one broken in that room.

20 LOU SMIT: It would not?


22 LOU SMIT: Okay, good.

23 JOHN RAMSEY: That's where we stored the

24 Christmas trees and stuff.

25 LOU SMIT: Okay.


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Looks like it's little

 2 fragments of the artificial tree over here. That

 3 would be my guess is what that is.

 4 LOU SMIT: I think I'm going to just

 5 switch gears right now, unless you have any other

 6 questions. One thing I did want to show you on

 7 picture 147 here; this again is photographs of the

 8 wine cellar. There's a series of them: 146, 147,

 9 148 and 149. Again, photographs of the wine cellar

10 after the search warrant was obtained.

11 And I'd like to just show them to you, Mr. Ramsey,

12 and see what you observe on these photographs,

13 whether they're in place or out of place or if

14 there's anything that seems to be different? And

15 what you remember?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, in terms of the pictures,

17 this cigar box is different, certainly.

18 LOU SMIT: And what do you mean by that?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, in terms of versus the other

20 picture, it's kind of resting on its bottom here,

21 more or less. Here it's a different box.

22 LOU SMIT: So you had more than one box

23 of cigars?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember that box,

25 Romeo and Juliets. I remember this. The Cubans.


 1 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) the same box?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't remember that box.

 3 LOU SMIT: Okay. That's it?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't. I don't. This --

 5 LOU SMIT: Photograph number --

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: -- 149, that was like

 7 (INAUDIBLE) what looks like a big piece of duct

 8 tape. That doesn't look like that tape I took off

 9 JonBenet's mouth.

10 LOU SMIT: Okay. And why do you say that?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, because as I recall,

12 it was black. It was like a little larger than

13 electrical tape in width. And it struck me, and as

14 I thought about it later, as the kind of tape you

15 might use in sailing to wrap around the stanchion

16 or something.

17 LOU SMIT: The black tape?


19 LOU SMIT: Have you used that type of

20 tape on (INAUDIBLE)?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I didn't recognize it.

22 But in this picture, it looks like a piece of duct

23 tape. A big piece of duct tape. And that's not

24 what I remember.

25 LOU SMIT: Okay. That's on photograph number --


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: 149. Cause it was like stuck

 2 to the blanket almost in this picture.

 3 LOU SMIT: What are you thinking?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: It's just hard to look at these,

 5 that's all. Basically JonBenet was right here.

 6 LOU SMIT: If you want to get off this,

 7 we can?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: No, that's okay. Sorry.

 9 LOU SMIT: You touched on something, you know,

10 and I was going to ask you about that tape later

11 on and the cord. But you mentioned that the tape

12 that you took off JonBenet, we're trying to

13 determine if in fact you could have been in

14 contact with that type of tape. And you mentioned

15 something about that's the type you seen on a

16 stanchion.

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it's just it wasn't

18 a tape that looked familiar to me, or it looked

19 like it wasn't torn, it was cut perfectly,

20 literally, that it fit her mouth. It was black, it

21 wider than electrical tape, but not as wide as

22 duct tape. I mean I know what duct tape is; it

23 wasn't duct tape.

24 Just thinking about it later, where do you get

25 this kind of tape? It's a little wider, and I've


 1 seen it in white before. It's kind of a utility

 2 tape that you can use on a sailboat in boating.

 3 LOU SMIT: Okay.

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: And we had some, and

 5 there's white. Somebody had (INAUDIBILE) that they

 6 wrapped around rough edges, the stanchion, so that

 7 the sail didn't catch it and tear. It was just

 8 kind of a wider utility tape. I don't remember if

 9 we had any black or not. But certainly white.

10 LOU SMIT: And this would have been where?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Up at Michigan.

12 LOU SMIT: Michigan, okay.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: It wasn't a big piece of

14 duct tape like that.

15 LOU SMIT: Okay. And we're going to get

16 into to that. I've got some I'm going to show you

17 also later. It's just that we divided that up

18 between the other room and this one. And so, when

19 we get it I'll show you a little more on that

20 later. And we will come back to some areas again.

21 I want to just let Mike -- I know he's had

22 questions. He's kind of written down questions in

23 an order that he's used. So let's just kind of

24 shift gears just a little bit. Then we can come

25 back.


 1 MIKE KANE: Mr. Ramsey, as I ask these

 2 questions, if there any that you don't want to

 3 answer, just let me know.

 4 I want to talk a little bit about the Christmas

 5 Eve period to Thanksgiving. Did you guys do

 6 anything for Thanksgiving?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, gosh. I don't remember.

 8 I'm sure we had.

 9 MIKE KANE: I mean, were you at home or

10 did you go some place?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I remember. We were

12 at my brother's.

13 MIKE KANE: In Atlanta?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: That's up in Atlanta.

15 Because we had a family picture that was sent out

16 with our Christmas card. That was at my brother's

17 at Thanksgiving.

18 MIKE KANE: Okay. Now I think yesterday

19 that you mentioned when one of the parades on

20 December the 6th, that you were away then. Do you

21 recall where you were then?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: We had gone to New York

23 that weekend with Susan and Glen Stine. They

24 invited us to go. I forget when Glen came back, it

25 was like a Friday and they came back on the Sunday


 1 or something like that.

 2 MIKE KANE: Where did you stay then?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I can see the place; I

 4 can't tell you the name. Patsy might remember.

 5 MIKE KANE: In Manhattan?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, it was downtown. It

 7 was near the theatre district. The Marriott or

 8 something like that.

 9 MIKE KANE: And you went there to go

10 to a dance -- The thought in the back of my mind

11 was that (INAUDIBLE) took JonBenet to New York. Is

12 that the same trip?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, that was a different trip.

14 Some friends of her in Charlevoix had a

15 mother/daughter trip to New York that they invited

16 her to go on. And that was, I think that was after

17 that. It was the Christmas season, as I recall.

18 And so she and JonBenet went. Patsy's mother and

19 sister went also. It was, as I recall, two or

20 three mother/daughter couples. And they went to

21 shows and the Center.

22 MIKE KANE: Rockefeller Center, you said?


24 MIKE KANE: And how long of a trip was that?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it was on a long weekend.


 1 I don't remember.

 2 MIKE KANE: During this period of time,

 3 and I'm going to get into this in more detail down

 4 the road. During this period of time between

 5 Christmas and Thanksgiving, did Patsy have any

 6 cancer treatments or follow-ups or trips to


 8 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall that she did.

 9 But it's (INAUDIBLE) day. She would know if it

10 was. She knows exactly when she needs to go again.

11 MIKE KANE: Okay. The party when that

12 Santa Claus contacted you, that party was on the

13 23rd. Now in the past you've had those parties

14 were the same with (INAUDIBLE)?


16 MIKE KANE: And this year, in 1996, you

17 said you weren't going to have it. Was there a

18 discussion about having it and you decided --

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, we talked about, you

20 know, should we have a Christmas party or should

21 we just have this big birthday party; and we were

22 going to leave town the next day; and the boat

23 trip. And we said, we won't really do that. I

24 think we were going to invite one or two couples

25 over with their kids and just have kind of a real


 1 small family thing. That was the extent of it.

 2 MIKE KANE: And then Mr. McReynolds called

 3 and you spoke about him saying Charles Kuralt?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: We normally would have

 5 called him well before that to arrange for him to

 6 come. Of course, we didn't that year. But he

 7 called and said, you know, Charles Kuralt is here

 8 in town and he's doing a documentary on me and I'd

 9 love to bring him to your Christmas party. He's

10 come, because that's one of my favorites.

11 So Patsy got excited, so a party sounds like fun.

12 So we put it together.

13 MIKE KANE: How long before the 23rd was that?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: It wasn't very long before.

15 MIKE KANE: So, pretty short notice?


17 MIKE KANE: What kinds of things did you

18 do to get ready for this?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I mean the house was

20 pretty well decorated. She just invited a lot more

21 people than we had planned to have over. And she

22 got those gingerbread things, I think, especially

23 for that.

24 MIKE KANE: What about food? Did she prepare

25 it or have it catered or what?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Usually she has it catered.

 2 I think that's what we did that night as well. I'm

 3 sure we did.

 4 MIKE KANE: Were there any other preparations

 5 for it, do you remember? You know, people that you

 6 might have contacted?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: No, besides the caterer.

 8 Then we have the other people we invited. I don't

 9 think so.

10 MIKE KANE: Did you have any workmen do

11 anything in the house in preparation for that?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I recall. We did have

13 -- the only work that was done in that period was:

14 Patsy's shower faucet had broken, the water. And

15 so we had a plumber come in. they tore out the

16 wall, you know, to get the valve out and replaced

17 out. And that was done, maybe Novemberish.

18 So now we had the shower wall with a big hole in

19 it and this Mervin Pew over Thanksgiving to repair

20 that tile work. But that's all work we had done in

21 the house around that period of time.

22 MIKE KANE: And while this Marvin Pew

23 was making that repair, did you contact him to do

24 that?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't. Patsy arranged


 1 for them to do some work. I remember she came to

 2 her and said, "We'd like some work." And she gave

 3 them a list of things to do. I think that's how.

 4 MIKE KANE: You said that the house was

 5 already decorated and the person who had done it

 6 in the past was Bill Wallace?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: He had helped in the past.

 8 I don't recall him being there this year. I know

 9 Patsy knew specifically what she did. You know, I

10 don't remember, but it wouldn't have surprised me

11 a bit if she threw up some extra decorations. They

12 were pretty excited that we were having an extra

13 party and so forth. But I don't remember her

14 specifically doing it. But she'd remember.

15 MIKE KANE: Mostly from what I can see from

16 photographs there are garland and things like that

17 look to me to be artificial. Is any of it real?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: The Christmas tree was real.

19 That's about it.

20 MIKE KANE: Do you know if any of the

21 greenery from your yard (INAUDIBLE)?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Sometimes she'd cut

23 (INAUDIBLE) in my yard, brought in ferns and stuff

24 for her room from the fir family, evergreen. But

25 I'm not sure.


 1 MIKE KANE: You don't know?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) we got some

 3 holly in the room.

 4 MIKE KANE: You don't (INAUDIBLE)?


 6 MIKE KANE: You don't know whether Wallace

 7 took part in that?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't, but Patsy would

 9 know for sure.

10 MIKE KANE: When he assisted in doing

11 that, is that what he was? He assisted her?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

13 MIKE KANE: Or did he kind of do it

14 and she assisted? Which was it?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I knew he was

16 there, I guess, when (INAUDIBLE). I think he was

17 artsy, so I'm sure he had opinions and stuff on

18 what should go where. But I suspect it was

19 probably a joint effort.

20 MIKE KANE: Yesterday in the room we had

21 some confusion about when you were leaving. Well

22 we know it was the 26th that you were leaving for

23 Charlevoix. And we found out, I guess, that was a

24 Thursday, when you were going on the Big Red Boat.

25 Did you have an opportunity to talk about that?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we talked a little bit

 2 about it last night, because I was amazed of how

 3 poorly our memory of things like that. Patsy

 4 didn't remember it either, but it's easy to figure

 5 out, because we lot purchased the tickets through

 6 our travel agent and so forth.

 7 BRYAN MORGAN: I may be able to shorten

 8 that because I know that I have seen the

 9 reservations. So I would be glad to send you

10 copies.

11 MIKE KANE: Okay. That would clear that

12 right up. Great. Where did the idea of going on

13 the Big Red Boat, how did that come about?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we actually that was

15 fairly well in advance. We had never been on a

16 cruise. Christmas is a tough time for us because I

17 think we lost Beth in January, and we liked to

18 kind of have things to do and planned.

19 So we thought, that would be fun thing to do, a

20 family thing. And we had never been on a cruise,

21 and going to the Big Red Boat and have fun with

22 the kids. So we just planned it and it was kind of

23 a first. Because I'd never done something like

24 that. And it was planned well in advance and we

25 got a package deal and it was TWA that was going


 1 through St. Louis, or something like that. Which I

 2 was kind of nervous about, because I could see us

 3 changing planes and missing planes. But it was a

 4 cheap airfare.

 5 MIKE KANE: You would rather have flown

 6 yourself?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Or rather flown nonstop to

 8 Orlando or something from Denver. I just get very

 9 nervous changing planes. But yeah, it was a trip

10 together. We had a very full, a very fun season

11 planned out.

12 MIKE KANE: Who made those arrangements?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy made the reservations?

14 MIKE KANE: Was it through the travel agent?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: The travel agent. Actually

16 I think I remember calling Walt Disney directly. I

17 think I might have gotten the number out of a

18 magazine or something. Because I think I remember

19 joining the Disney or somebody like that directly.

20 Because we had the option of going to Disney World

21 for a day or two, and we no, because Patsy didn't

22 want to. I Remember.

23 MIKE KANE: And then the trip to Charlevoix,

24 was that planned a lot in advance?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, fairly. Not months


 1 in advance, at least a month in advance. We had to

 2 get tickets for the kids and figure out their

 3 schedule and get Mike Archuleta lined up. So it

 4 was planned. For sure three or four weeks in

 5 advance.

 6 MIKE KANE: Why Charlevoix?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we have a summer

 8 cottage up there and I love it up there and the

 9 kids like it, and I just thought it would be fun

10 to have a Christmas up there just to see what it

11 was like.

12 MIKE KANE: Had you ever been up there

13 before?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: For Christmas?



17 MIKE KANE: Was the house, the cottage,

18 decorated?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy had a way of doing

20 things, had a local florist go out and drape

21 garland on the fence and lights, and I think they

22 decorated the mantle. We weren't going to have a

23 Christmas tree because we were only going for a

24 short stay. It didn't make any sense. But she had

25 it decorated. We never saw it. But it supposedly


 1 decorated. Because we wanted it to be nice for

 2 Melinda and (INAUDIBLE) and the other kids.

 3 MIKE KANE: How often did you go to Charlevoix?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy would normally go

 5 up with the kids, because we've only had it for

 6 three or four five years, something like that. But

 7 she would go up in June and stay through August.

 8 MIKE KANE: And go out every year?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, every year that we've

10 had it, we just may have been two or three

11 summers.

12 MIKE KANE: So you had never been out there

13 for Christmas before?


15 MIKE KANE: Did you take the trips there

16 during the winter --

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, once a year, maybe. We

18 didn't go till much later.

19 MIKE KANE: And is there like an airport

20 where

21 you can land?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Within a mile of the house.

23 MIKE KANE: And you had a car up there?

24 I mean, from the airport you'd just leave it at

25 the airport?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: We've done both. I don't

 2 remember then what whether it was at the airport

 3 or in the garage. I think that it was in the

 4 garage. And then we'd call neighbors and they

 5 would come pick us up. I think that's probably

 6 what we would have done.

 7 MIKE KANE: You said you had clothes up

 8 there?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

10 MIKE KANE: How much in the way of winter

11 clothes did you have?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: We had jeans and sweatshirts,

13 which is really all we need. I hate to haul a lot

14 of stuff when we're traveling. I just travel so

15 much, I guess. That's one of the attractions of

16 having a place like that is, when you go there you

17 shouldn't have to carry everything with you.

18 So I consciously don't do that, and make it a

19 point to try to have the stuff there:

20 toothbrushes, extra electric shaver, (INAUDIBLE)

21 so I don't have to take things back to Boulder. As

22 I recall, the only thing I wanted to take with me

23 was a winter coat.

24 MIKE KANE: Yeah. You had mentioned that

25 about some luggage, the pull-behind type. Were you


 1 have taking that to Charlevoix?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know if we were

 3 taking it to Charlevoix or not. I think we had

 4 something packed for the boat trip. A lot of times

 5 we would just -- because the kids always had stuff

 6 they had to take, because they always are growing

 7 out of clothes, so you can leave the right stuff

 8 there. But when you came back it was too small.

 9 But we try to pack like in soft bags or plastic

10 bags. Because it's just easier to cram that in the

11 plane.

12 MIKE KANE: Does the King Air have a

13 separate cargo hold?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it's like just in

15 the back of the cabin. So if you pack in a soft

16 thing, you can really fill up that little space.


18 MIKE KANE: And that was pretty big capacity,

19 though, weight wise?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, yeah. You can --

21 MIKE KANE: What was that? Four thousand

22 pounds or something like that?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, empty. But you put

24 fuel on board. Yeah.

25 MIKE KANE: Yeah.



 2 MIKE KANE: Did you have any problem with

 3 that?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't remember any.

 5 MIKE KANE: I'm going to get into another

 6 area here. Like I said yesterday, they'll try to

 7 put anything into (INAUDIBLE).


 9 MIKE KANE: Okay. You hired media consultants.

10 (INAUDIBLE) you hear about. But whenever you hear

11 about the Ramseys, you always hear they hired

12 media consultants. Tell me about that?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: As far as I'm concerned,

14 (INAUDIBLE), it's the biggest mistake he ever

15 made. These guys came to us and said, well we got

16 to get --

17 BRYAN MORGAN: Wait a minute, wait, wait.

18 You're getting into attorney/client conversation.

19 MIKE KANE: Don't tell anything that is --

20 JOHN RAMSEY: We didn't hire --

21 BRYAN MORGAN: I am entirely willing to explain

22 it, but this is not a general area. (INAUDIBLE)

23 talk about this particular back and forth between

24 us.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: They said we have to be


 1 isolated from these piranhas so we can do our job.

 2 But we needed somebody that could respond to them

 3 with accurate information, but keep us from having

 4 to deal with these people. And, you know, we were

 5 total on autopilot, because we were in shock. We

 6 had lost our daughter.

 7 This guy, I forget his name now, was brought in.

 8 And the objective was to try to give the sharks

 9 what they wanted so they'd go away. And these guys

10 came in and they did what needed to be done. I

11 mean, we were trying to figure out, let's find out

12 who did this. (INAUDIBLE) here, how to get away

13 from here. And that was the objective.


15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah. And it was a

16 total weight of money.

17 MIKE KANE: How is that?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: He was a blow bag. He was

19 worthless. What we should have done is put a phone

20 number in and hired somebody that knew how to not

21 say anything, to be polite.

22 MIKE KANE: What was it that he didn't do?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well the one thing that he

24 did, and had backfired in our face was, he said I

25 worked out a deal with the media that, if you will


 1 give them some footage, they'll go away. I'd like

 2 it that when you come out of the church. He set it

 3 up so they would be there and he said if you could

 4 do this one thing they'd get their meat and then

 5 they'll leave. (INAUDIBLE)

 6 And we said, okay. We'll do that. Because

 7 that's the video they used a lot, when we were

 8 walking out of the church. And we had set it up

 9 with Father Rol, that this would happen, and sorry

10 that these guys were hanging outside the church

11 anyway.

12 And so Father Rol agreed and he said

13 we'll walk over to the sanctuary where the

14 community center was. At the sermon he said,

15 "Okay, I'm going to do something that I said I

16 wouldn't do, but I'm going to do it anyway." He

17 said, "Here's what's going to happen. I would like

18 all of you to line up along the sidewalk and

19 protect the Ramseys from these people and show

20 your support." He said, "You don't have to do it.

21 But if you'd like to, that's what I'd like to do."

22 And sure enough, everybody wanted to

23 line up along the sidewalk. Well the media said

24 the Ramseys set this up and media consultant

25 arranged this and what a sham. And that was the


 1 start of our disgust with the media.

 2 BRYAN MORGAN: And the same thing again,

 3 pursuant to my limit on this particular issue. I

 4 think my office got 400 phone calls in the first

 5 week or seven or eight business days after somehow

 6 word got out that we were involved. That was the

 7 driving factor in trying to get something to be

 8 done (INAUDIBLE).

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) between them,

10 us, the police and these animals. And that's why

11 we tried to put that in place.

12 BRYAN MORGAN: And I agree with John,

13 when he said it was a mistake we made, we're

14 responsible for it. We needed lawyers, we

15 (INAUDIBLE). We didn't have any idea how it was

16 going to happen. And that was a mistake;

17 completely misinterpreted. And we hired

18 (INAUDIBLE) for that.

19 MIKE KANE: Now you talked about the

20 incoming stuff, what about the outgoing stuff? Did

21 the media, either him or his firm or anybody else,

22 have a role in formulating any of these strategies

23 with either CNN or the people? Did any of them

24 have any discussions with them?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not that I remember.


 1 BRYAN MORGAN: Nothing with CNN. I don't

 2 quite understand it. They had nothing to do with

 3 anything legal in a strategy for us.

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Are you talking about

 5 Kourten, or are you talking about --

 6 MIKE KANE: No, I'm not talking about

 7 you guys, I'm talking about Kourten.

 8 BRYAN MORGAN: The answer is, no.

 9 MIKE KANE: Well, may I direct it to your

10 client?

11 BRYAN MORGAN: You answer.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember saying

13 that. I thought he was a total jerk, frankly. I

14 talked to him probably three times, I suppose.



17 BRYAN MORGAN: I want to make sure that

18 we're not now getting into that gentlemen, who was

19 hired through my firm to protect a privilege. So

20 if this is not some open-ended labor so that

21 everybody can run and talk to Pat Kourten.

22 If we have that understanding, I will

23 let John talk about it.

24 MIKE KANE: Well, I mean, I don't know

25 if that would be determined attorney/client


 1 privilege.

 2 BRYAN MORGAN: That's what it is. He was

 3 hired as our agent.

 4 MIKE KANE: Well, I don't know that --

 5 I don't want to get into any area if you can't --

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: If you're going start

 7 asking questions about stuff your read in the

 8 media, we're going to be here a long time and I'm

 9 going to be angry, because all of that was

10 bullshit. How more pointed can I put that.

11 MIKE KANE: Like I said, if I have a

12 question and you don't want to answer it, just

13 don't answer it.

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I want to stuff that's

15 constructive. And if you start pulling stuff that

16 you read in the media out and ask me about it,

17 Whew. That's not constructive. That's not good

18 information.

19 MIKE KANE: I need to find out if it's

20 true or not.


22 MIKE KANE: Well, like I said, if you start

23 second-guessing my motives, can't do that.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, all I can say is, Pat

25 Kourten was brought in to keep these animals from


 1 people who were trying to do their work. That

 2 included the police, that included the city, that

 3 included my attorneys, that included our privacy.

 4 He had failed miserably. It backfired on us by the

 5 creatures that we tried to protect ourselves from.

 6 I tell you, we spend a lot of money on it, you

 7 know, painfully. So I don't know what else I can

 8 say about it.

 9 There was no strategy to try to influence

10 anybody. We were in mourning, in deep shock. We

11 didn't care about living. We'd lost the most

12 precious thing in our life. We were trying to

13 survive from hour to hour.

14 MIKE KANE: As time went on, how about in

15 the May first interview with the local media here,

16 was there any discussions about how that would be

17 setup?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Which was that? Was that the

19 one in the hotel room?

20 LOU SMIT: He's referring to the interview

21 immediately after the (INAUDIBLE) interrogation by

22 the Boulder Police Department.

23 JOHN RAMSEY: No, we just said, look we've

24 been so criticized for not cooperating, which was

25 ridiculous, because we'd happily agreed to do


 1 anything that we were asked. The only one thing we

 2 asked was, that if we're going to sit down in an

 3 interview, we wanted a representative for the

 4 district attorney, and that these fellows'

 5 recommendations.

 6 And we were just roundly criticized.

 7 False information was out there about what we had

 8 or hadn't done. And we said, well we'd do this. We

 9 want to say we've done it. For the reputation of

10 our family for our reputation. And try to correct

11 the record.

12 So they set up that little meeting.

13 MIKE KANE: Who set that up?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Charlie Russell, I think.

15 BRYAN MORGAN: I don't really know.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember that.

17 MIKE KANE: Charlie Russell?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: He's the guy that was brought

19 in as a buffer after we got rid of Kourten to try

20 to -- and he put in girl that answered the media

21 line, Rachel Zimmer. So now these guys had a

22 number they could call.

23 Of course, as far as I remember, wasn't

24 telling them very much. But at least if their boss

25 said go check with the Ramsey camp, they could


 1 call this number and Rachel would tell them one

 2 thing, well they'll call you. And of course, she

 3 never would. And he put that in place.

 4 He, again, tried to put a wall up. So

 5 they (INAUDIBLE). I don't remember if it was

 6 Rachel or Charlie or who, I don't know. But as a

 7 legitimate of the media people that we could find

 8 in the local area.

 9 MIKE KANE: Who hired Charlie Russell?

10 BRYAN MORGAN: We did. My law firm.

11 MIKE KANE: Okay. Did any media people play

12 a role in formulating the flyers or the

13 advertisements you put out?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I recall.

15 BRYAN MORGAN: I was involved in that again.

16 Subject to my understanding, our understanding.

17 This is not a waiver of anything else. But I can

18 answer that question if you want an answer.

19 MIKE KANE: I want to hear Mr. Ramsey's

20 answers.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know. I --

22 MIKE KANE: Okay. Well if that's the answer,

23 then that's the answer.


25 MIKE KANE: Okay. That's all I need to know.


 1 Yesterday you spoke about when Commander Becker, I

 2 guess soon-to-be Chief Becker, came into the

 3 picture, that he would have, I don't know if you

 4 contacted him directly or he had an invitation of

 5 some sort?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, actually through our

 7 minister, Steve Thomas is one of the detectives.

 8 Gee, it would be nice if we could just talk and

 9 not give it second hand, because (INAUDIBLE)

10 conversation. We just kind of like laughed. We sat

11 down to coffee and said let's see if we can break

12 the ice here.

13 And we thought it was a genuine offer and a

14 genuine attempt to establish some trust and

15 communication. And we told Rol, we said, "Hey,

16 great." We want to do that. He's a new guy. We

17 certainly had no use for Eller. They said let us

18 see if we can (INAUDIBLE) this crime.

19 That's all we cared about. We didn't care

20 about people's jobs or careers, how it looked in

21 public. It was extremely frustrating for us that

22 we can't sit down and have that kind of

23 conversation.

24 What we basically offered through Rol was,

25 yes, we'd love to have you come to Atlanta, come


 1 to our home, let's sit down and talk. Let's get to

 2 know each other as human beings and let's go

 3 forward.

 4 And the response that we got back was,

 5 well that would be to their advantage. I want to

 6 meet them in a neutral place, not in their home.

 7 And I said, God, what are we dealing with? What

 8 kind of mentality are we dealing with here.

 9 We are the parents of a murdered child

10 who was murdered in this man's jurisdiction. He's

11 in charge of the investigation; he won't come to

12 our home to call on us to tell us what's going on,

13 to introduce himself. We give up.

14 MIKE KANE: Where did he offer to meet you?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: He never did.

16 MIKE KANE: He said a neutral spot.

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well that's all we heard. He

18 never said what that was.

19 MIKE KANE: How did you hear that? Was that

20 from him directly or was that from --

21 JOHN RAMSEY: From Father Rol. Oh, he would

22 never talk to us. It was either Father Rol or

23 maybe Bryan. (INAUDIBLE).

24 MIKE KANE: What was your understanding

25 about -- would be a mutual spot be in Georgia or


 1 Colorado?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: My impression was, it was

 3 the police station.

 4 MIKE KANE: Why that impression if it was

 5 neutral?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: You have a good point. (INAUDIBLE).

 7 But that was the impression we got. I don't know

 8 if we know anymore than that.

 9 BRYAN MORGAN: I do. But I'm not answering

10 the question.

11 JOHN RAMSEY: All right. I don't know.

12 MIKE KANE: So was it your decision not to

13 do anything? You were just (INAUDIBLE)?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I said, look it. Again,

15 that is the mentality that's trying to help us. We

16 don't need that kind of help.

17 MIKE KANE: I think it was on the CNN January

18 first interview, you said that at that point you

19 wanted to hire -- do your investigation to make

20 sure that there was an investigation. And I think

21 you used the term "best minds in the country".

22 What have you done to follow up on that?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we brought in John Douglas

24 earlier on. Patsy and I have met with him

25 individually, no bias. In fact, I think he told


 1 the news guys. He said, "I'm going to talk to

 2 them." And I think I know what the answer is going

 3 to be, because I'd been reading the paper.

 4 So we sat, each of us sat with him for probably

 5 an hour as an investigator. He came away --

 6 BRYAN MORGAN: Hold it, hold it.


 8 BRYAN MORGAN: That's a waiver problem.

 9 We hired Douglas just like we hired this guy. And

10 if you want to hear what John has to say, I'll let

11 him give it to you, but I don't want to waive the

12 privilege, and I consider it privileged.

13 MIKE KANE: Okay.

14 BRYAN MORGAN: If you want to hear an answer

15 with that understanding?

16 MIKE KANE: Sure.


18 JOHN RAMSEY: He said, the report we got

19 back was that the police these people are wrong;

20 they're barking up the wrong tree. And then we

21 took him to the house. We told him everything we

22 knew. He spent several days there. He came back

23 and said, I think it's somebody you know. I think

24 it's somebody that is angry with you or jealous. I

25 think it's somebody who has been in the house


 1 before.

 2 And that became kind of the foundation

 3 for who it could have been. We have had some

 4 follow-up with him. I know Ellis went back with

 5 him later; many months later. He was still very

 6 solid on that. And we offered his services to the

 7 police. I think he met with them for an hour or

 8 two. Our investigators have followed up leads that

 9 we've gotten. I think they've given most, if not

10 all, to the police. I'm sure probably all.

11 We ran those ads. One of the things that Douglas

12 said right off, he said publish the ransom note.

13 Put it on a billboard outside of town. Somebody

14 will recognize that handwriting or the wording or

15 the language. And we tried for months to get that

16 to happen and we finally got the permission to

17 print the letters or something (INAUDIBLE) and we

18 had some full-page ads.

19 We still have a tip line that we monitor everyday.

20 I don't know what else to do. In fact, I would

21 love to offer -- I was very impressed with

22 Douglas.

23 MIKE KANE: Would you have probably talked

24 to them.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely not. I wouldn't.


 1 BRYAN MORGAN: Well I wouldn't. I'm not

 2 getting into a general waiver about this, and

 3 that's the reason I've protected it the way I did.

 4 John's giving you an accurate summary of the

 5 information John Douglas told us. And if there is

 6 to be a further discussion with Douglas, I need to

 7 be involved in that.

 8 MIKE KANE: I would think so. I will have

 9 to do a formal letter.


11 MIKE KANE: Anybody else that you brought

12 in on a national level or who you got involved?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we brought in handwriting

14 experts. Geez, I don't know. I had lots of people.

15 I mean, what frustrated us so much in the

16 beginning was we didn't think we -- Okay, we

17 accept the fact that you look at us, but, God

18 sakes, look elsewhere as well just as hard as

19 you're looking at us.

20 And we were never convinced that was going on. So

21 we thought if anybody's going to do it, we've got

22 to it.

23 MIKE KANE: You mean like just what I'm

24 doing now?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Now I feel -- Cause I


 1 wouldn't be here if we didn't feel this was an

 2 objective investigation run by people who really

 3 knew what they were doing. And let the chips fall

 4 where they may.

 5 MIKE KANE: And so it's Douglas and the

 6 handwriting people out there (INAUDIBLE).

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

 8 MIKE KANE: Anybody else?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) I think. I don't

10 remember.

11 BRYAN MORGAN: We've submitted the essential

12 reports that we have put together on account of

13 our experts, and you've seen those. We're happy to

14 participate further (INAUDIBLE). We're starting to

15 see something very encouraging.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Because, very frankly, I'd

17 rather spend money, and I know this isn't going to

18 impact on Boulder County and budgets and all that,

19 and for which we're very grateful, but if I'm

20 going to be spending money, I'd rather spend it on

21 a guy like Douglas that can work for you guys than

22 my good friend Bryan here; for example.

23 So consider that an offer on the table.

24 I told these guys, I'll spend every dime I got to

25 find out who did this. I've spent a lot, a good


 1 portion of what I had.

 2 MIKE KANE: How much?

 3 BRYAN MORGAN: No, no, no. That is, in my

 4 view, an improper question.

 5 MIKE KANE: Why is it improper? Because he

 6 said he would spend everything, and he's spent a

 7 lot and he's saying how much.

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know that I added it

 9 up, but I can tell you that we're virtually out of

10 money.

11 BRYAN MORGAN: I can give you the numbers

12 if somebody can convince me that it is: a)

13 relevant; and b) not privileged. I got the

14 numbers. I had a large part. I don't mean to be

15 antagonistic about this.

16 DAVID WILLIAMS: I'm curious the line of

17 question, Mike?

18 MIKE KANE: Like I said, if you don't want

19 to answer it, don't answer it. I'm not going to

20 sit here and give a reason for every question that

21 I offer. If you don't want to answer it, don't

22 answer it.

23 BRYAN MORGAN: We never had this problem

24 in all day yesterday and all day today about any

25 number of questions. It seems to me only fair if


 1 we are trying to cooperate under a poisoned

 2 atmosphere, because this man is at great risk,

 3 that we be given some sense of understanding about

 4 the purpose of questions which are not obvious

 5 (INAUDIBLE). That's all I'm trying to stay.

 6 MIKE KANE: I think generally, I told you

 7 yesterday, obviously somebody sitting there, if

 8 there's an intruder sitting there, these questions

 9 are going to be asked.

10 BRYAN MORGAN: Okay. I accept that. I

11 accept that as the purpose. And I think that what

12 we will do is respond to that by letter. Because I

13 want to be accurate about that.

14 MIKE KANE: That's fine.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm sure I think I've spent

16 a lot more than I have. But it's been very --

17 MIKE KANE: And once again, if there's question

18 that I ask, if you don't want to answer it, you're

19 here voluntarily. You can walk out the door. Okay?

20 All right.

21 MIKE KANE: What steps have -- I mean that

22 there's a handwriting, I know that John Douglas

23 helped you. What affirmative steps, in your mind,

24 just tell me have you taken to find that intruder?

25 I mean what is the sum total of that in your mind?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I feel like we've exhausted

 2 almost everything that we can do. I have racked my

 3 brain everyday as to who could have possibly have

 4 done this. What does the note mean, what does SBTC

 5 mean. All these little clues that were left for

 6 us.

 7 I think there is a -- I don't want to comment on

 8 that. I don't know how that is, because I don't

 9 know. But we do live here. I look at the Susan

10 Chase thing. She's two days before Christmas

11 bludgeoned in the head. No great clues. It's the

12 same guy.

13 A month ago there was a woman, probably not

14 murdered because somebody interrupted him. Again

15 I read it in the paper, blocks from my house. Same

16 guy. It's got to be.

17 MIKE KANE: Why is that?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Head injuries. Strong, you know,

19 physical abuse to the woman; huge physical abuse.

20 Susan Chase was a beautiful blond child, just like

21 JonBenet. Somebody said these serial killers start

22 out with children and get more aggressive. You

23 guys would know that better than I do.

24 MIKE KANE: Who told you that?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Just a friend. Everybody


 1 has tried to solve this; tried to help. And,

 2 frankly, my hope was that it was the same guy that

 3 did this attack a month ago and they got a

 4 profile image of him now.

 5 MIKE KANE: Um hmm.

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: And that's the killer of JonBenet.

 7 Let's just hope he doesn't get killed or disappear

 8 before we can find out. I hope there is enough

 9 evidence that could tie him to the crime scene.

10 MIKE KANE: At some point, and I can't

11 remember, there was a reward that was posted. When

12 was that?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: We offered a reward literally

14 immediately. Nobody would publicize it. The police

15 didn't seem interested in publicizing it. I think

16 they were afraid they were going to get too many

17 calls or something.

18 We set up a deal with crime stoppers where we paid

19 for that service. I think we announced the reward.

20 And one of the reason we did this (INAUDIBLE)

21 press conference was to publicize the reward?

22 MIKE KANE: Were they --

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. There's

24 (INAUDIBLE) but that was one of our objectives.

25 And I was very disappointed that when the camera


 1 showed a picture of the reward poster, they cut it

 2 off at just about the dollar amount. So we didn't

 3 achieve what we wanted to achieve.

 4 I asked early on, I said look, "Does it need to be

 5 a million dollars?" (INAUDIBLE).

 6 MIKE KANE: Who said that?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: We just got it back from

 8 the police and we couldn't get anybody --

 9 MIKE KANE: Did you talk to the police

10 about the amount?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember.

12 MIKE KANE: When was it that you said the

13 people that they don't need it?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: You know, I'm sorry, I can't

15 do this because I don't remember.

16 MIKE KANE: So what was the figure that

17 was settled?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: A hundred thousand. But

19 we couldn't get anybody to publicize it or

20 whatever. The police weren't interested in talking

21 about it. It was very frustrating for us.

22 MIKE KANE: Did you take other steps to

23 publicize it, or what steps did you take?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we announced it.

25 That's one reason why we did that press


 1 conference. Patsy had the poster and she held it

 2 up to the cameras and said, "We are offering a

 3 reward of $100,000."

 4 MIKE KANE: Prior to May, was there one?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It had been announced.

 6 We didn't get it. Nobody wanted to do it. We did

 7 it. We worked out a deal with Crime Stoppers. It

 8 cost us about five grand.

 9 BRYAN MORGAN: There's a written record

10 about when we finally came to an agreement with

11 Crime Stoppers. It was very difficult to conclude,

12 which surprised me greatly. And we'd be happy to

13 provide that to you.

14 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE) I guess I'm not

15 familiar with how Crime Stoppers works out here.

16 What was those discussions?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't have them directly.

18 I don't know. But I remember it was a bit

19 bureaucratic. You couldn't say this in the ad. And

20 I said, "Come on, we're trying to find a killer

21 here."

22 They had sponsored a golf tournament.

23 MIKE KANE: Was the initial award immediately --

24 you offered a reward, was that through Crime

25 Stoppers?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember the sequence.

 2 But I remember the issue was that the police

 3 weren't interested in talking about it. The

 4 feedback I got was that they weren't prepared to

 5 handle all the calls that they would get from a

 6 nationally publicized number on the reward.

 7 So we went to Crime Stoppers and who were

 8 supposedly set up for that. Got that set up. I

 9 think that people we were immediately assigned. We

10 paid the phone expense every month, maybe still

11 are. And we tried to get the reward published. And

12 then we ran some pictures of JonBenet with that in

13 the Boulder paper. I don't remember when it was.

14 What we were trying, the best we can do to

15 (INAUDIBLE) this person, and we still look at this

16 way. There's a perverse of me doesn't want to see

17 it ever go off the front pages, even though it's

18 very harmful to Patsy and I. But I don't want

19 people to forget about it. I want to find this

20 person.

21 If this whole thing just dies and it loses public

22 interest, and so I'm helpful even though we're

23 awful tired of people sitting outside our home

24 with binoculars and cameras, and following the

25 children around with lights of in the back of the


 1 car, and those type of things.

 2 MIKE KANE: In arriving at the figure of

 3 a hundred thousand, did you talk to professionals

 4 or your friends?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we might have talked

 6 -- I don't remember. It may have been. I wanted to

 7 make it $118,000. but that seemed a little -- but,

 8 basically what I was told is $100,000 is a lot of

 9 money. And if somebody has something to say

10 they're going to say it for a hundred grand.

11 MIKE KANE: I just ask one final question.

12 LOU SMIT: And we'll take a break.

13 MIKE KANE: Did that produce anything?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: We got flurries of calls.

15 Obviously it hasn't produced what I had hoped.

16 MIKE KANE: Um hmm.

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I guess my impression is that.

18 if there was something, we would have heard by

19 now. So if we put a bigger reward on it, all it

20 would do is put more pressure on the person. It's

21 probably going to produce a phone call, or I don't

22 know.

23 MIKE KANE: Okay. That's it. It was quite

24 a lot.

25 BRYAN MORGAN: That's okay. There are


 1 things to, if you want to go off the record on

 2 this. There are people we can tell you to talk to,

 3 in charge of this, who really know the details

 4 that John does not. We, frankly, should have

 5 thought of that. I can give you those names, if

 6 you want that we've been corresponding with, and

 7 the (INAUDIBLE) to prove which were absolutely

 8 savaged by the Mayor of this city, saying it was a

 9 phony and fraudulent deal --

10 JOHN RAMSEY: That's right. To divert

11 attention from themselves and part of our

12 strategy.

13 BRYAN MORGAN: -- to divert attention from

14 (INAUDIBLE) obtain as a result of conversation

15 (INAUDIBLE) and it was horribly embarrassing to

16 have to say what we did. But we got ripped in

17 half. When we were running the ad, it was the

18 language he suggested in it.

19 Our experience in this whole matter has been

20 frustrating beyond words to describe. We can fill

21 it out anyway you want, Mike. I'm just asking. He

22 doesn't have to defend himself.

23 JOHN RAMSEY: We're sorry to be a little

24 feisty, but the media has earned a place in our

25 (INAUDIBLE). It is never going to go away. They're


 1 like animals.

 2 LOU SMIT: And if I can say something too.

 3 (INAUDIBLE) Mike is just trying to really get the

 4 information that we're going to need.

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I know.

 6 LOU SMIT: And I know I have the contacts

 7 to do it.

 8 BRYAN MORGAN: And we will provide it.


10 LOU SMIT: Okay. For the camera, we took

11 a break at about quarter till 11. Now it's just

12 about three or four minutes after 11. We will

13 continue. And, Mike, would you like to ask some

14 more questions?

15 MIKE KANE: Mr. Ramsey back to that Spree

16 article, Spree Entrepreneurial. Had you ever seen

17 that article? Do you remember the first time?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: When you showed this morning.

19 MIKE KANE: So you don't know when the exact

20 publication or that issue of that organization?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. I mean, it looked

22 like it was a publication that they put out that I

23 saw.

24 MIKE KANE: The Spree?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: The Spree, right.


 1 MIKE KANE: Okay. And Spree, you say, is

 2 part of the Chamber of the Commerce?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: That's my understanding, yeah.

 4 MIKE KANE: Okay. Do you recall when they

 5 first contacted you about that?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: It seems to me it was months

 7 before the event because we had to hand in some

 8 background of the company. We had to agree to

 9 participate and we had to put together the

10 collateral returns.

11 It seems to me it was a summer event, but I don't

12 remember that, no. It was months before. I think

13 as much as six months before.

14 MIKE KANE: They ran a photograph of --

15 Lou asked you if that could have been JonBenet's

16 handwriting and you said absolutely not. What is

17 it about that that makes you so sure?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean I don't remember

19 actually saying that. But she was a child. She was

20 six years old. She didn't have particular good

21 letter formation or anything yet. And the o's here

22 and the n's are uniform n's. and the letters are

23 the same size. That's not a six year old's

24 handwriting.



 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well there's a cursive "a",

 2 a cursive "a" maybe. She doesn't write cursive.

 3 This is bizarre. This is somebody who is sick who

 4 did this.

 5 MIKE KANE: What about Burke? Could he have

 6 written it?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's just the fact that

 8 that is not something that Burke would do. For

 9 starters, his handwriting is not very good either.

10 Those notes look to me like they're written by

11 somebody who has quite good handwriting, who can

12 consistently write. And Burke certainly, two years

13 ago wasn't -- I mean, he's gotten (INAUDIBLE) in

14 school for not having good handwriting. It

15 something he needs to work on.

16 MIKE KANE: I think you said that when

17 Lou asked you about the art on her hand, you said

18 that you were aware of that but you had just

19 recently heard about that. Where did you hear

20 that?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I think I heard about

22 it through the media, somehow.

23 MIKE KANE: And what did you think about

24 it then?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I guess it kind of stunned


 1 me. I mean it sounded bizarre. I think we were

 2 asked that question, I can't remember now. But it

 3 just seemed unusual. It didn't seem right.

 4 MIKE KANE: Did you do anything at all?

 5 Talk to anybody about it?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I mentioned to our (INAUDIBLE)

 7 That it seemed strange.

 8 MIKE KANE: Did you talk to Mrs. Ramsey?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we had a conversation

10 about it, yeah. I think you guys may have asked us

11 about it, actually.

12 MIKE KANE: And what did Mrs. Ramsey (INAUDIBLE)?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think she was as -- we

14 hadn't seen it, obviously. I think she wasn't as

15 adamant as I am now that wasn't possible at the

16 time. The first impression was, yeah, it is. We

17 (INAUDIBLE) occasionally.

18 LOU SMIT: One quick question. Could that

19 have been Patsy's handwriting?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: She has very good handwriting.

21 That just looks sick to me. It's the only

22 impression I had.

23 MIKE KANE: The note, do you have a copy of

24 this?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. But I've seen it, yeah.


 1 MIKE KANE: It's been released to you. What

 2 was your first reaction?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Obviously my first reaction

 4 was horrifying. I screamed. Just went through this

 5 moment of panic, I guess.

 6 MIKE KANE: Did you believe it at first or

 7 did you disbelieve it?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: It took seconds to sink in,

 9 you know. (INAUDIBLE) you don't know what to

10 believe. What is this, you know. Again,

11 (INAUDIBLE) believe it pretty quick.

12 MIKE KANE: What made you believe?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Because she was not there;

14 she was gone.

15 MIKE KANE: And did you look in her room

16 by the time you read this?


18 MIKE KANE: What did you do to determine

19 that she was gone?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy and I went to the room,

21 I think I ran up and looked again. That was it.

22 MIKE KANE: Did you look any place else?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: At that time?

24 MIKE KANE: Yes.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't think so.


 1 MIKE KANE: I think you touched on this,

 2 and I want to go into it a little bit more than

 3 this. You were pretty adamant about calling the

 4 police and the FBI obviously and all these

 5 references to knowledge of police tactics and

 6 stuff like that.

 7 Was there any discussion about not calling the

 8 police?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, for a moment. I mean,

10 Patsy said, it says not to call the police. I

11 said, call them anyway. We called them. I mean,

12 there's no question in my mind that that was the

13 right answer.

14 MIKE KANE: Did you have any concern

15 about doing that? Even when you had made that

16 decision, did you have any concerns?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: No. No. Because we couldn't

18 just sit there. We would have gone mad.

19 (INAUDIBLE). We didn't. No.

20 MIKE KANE: Did you have concerns cars

21 pulling up when they said --

22 JOHN RAMSEY: We were just anxious for

23 them to get there. They actually took care of that

24 themselves as soon as they found out what's going

25 on. They moved their cars and anybody else that


 1 came had parked away.

 2 MIKE KANE: You didn't even think about

 3 before, that they got you under surveillance or

 4 anything?


 6 MIKE KANE: It said, "You will withdraw

 7 $118,000 dollars from your account." What did you

 8 think about when you saw this?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: It was just a strange amount.

10 And I was thankful I could do it. Because it

11 wasn't a hundred million. So I could deal with

12 that.

13 MIKE KANE: Um hmm.

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I thought it was obviously

15 strange. I thought it was strange that they wanted

16 $20 bills and $100 bills. $100 bills. Because

17 those were -- I don't even like to carry $100

18 bills. (INAUDIBLE). So that's all I can say, that

19 that was odd. It seemed amateurish, you know, the

20 whole thing.

21 MIKE KANE: Yeah. Yesterday you said the

22 word childish.

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

24 MIKE KANE: What do you mean? What was it

25 about this that --


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: well (INAUDIBLE) and you

 2 know that just some of the language in this, it

 3 sounded like some radical young person or people.

 4 MIKE KANE: What's in the language, do you

 5 feel, go into that type of mind?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I mean, it's just a really

 7 sick note; kind of calculated kind of pressure

 8 through measures and tactics. It sounded militant.

 9 It started and used my name a lot. It started out

10 "Dear Mr. Ramsey" and then it went into "John",

11 "John", "John".

12 That, to me, is unusual for people to use your

13 name a lot. The only person -- at some point, I

14 thought that, gee, that sounds like so and so

15 talking, because they use my name a lot.

16 MIKE KANE: When did you have that thought?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember.

18 MIKE KANE: Was it that day?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I doubt it. At least,

20 I don't remember. Fleet uses your name a lot. John

21 this, John this. And that's unusual. And that was

22 my only impression. I didn't think a whole lot.

23 Fleet and Priscilla, we thought were our closest

24 friends. So that's a bizarre thought. But it was a

25 thought.


 1 MIKE KANE: You said that with the $118,000,

 2 one of the first thoughts that you had, was that

 3 it could be doable?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

 5 MIKE KANE: When you say it was doable,

 6 did you have like liquid assets?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: No. On one hand, it struck

 8 me as (INAUDIBLE) to come up with. And then I

 9 thought, why isn't it 100. I would have wanted a

10 million. Why not two million. It's just a very

11 strange number. And I then I thought maybe --

12 I mean, we sat and analyzed this thing that

13 morning and tried to figure out who the hell this

14 could have been. And my thoughts was maybe it was

15 somebody who needed $100,000 and hired a hit man

16 for $18,000. I mean, there are always some kind of

17 logical explanation there.

18 MIKKE: And now it's been 18 months that

19 you been thinking about that. Do you have any

20 other thoughts on it? I mean, I know this has been

21 -- you see, it has to have a correlation with you


23 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I think that was just

24 a bit coincidence. That was my net bonus after

25 tax. And it wasn't exactly 118; it was 118 and


 1 something.

 2 MIKE KANE: Do you think this was a random

 3 figure as opposed to a purposeful figure?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: A purposeful. I think there

 5 were a lot of things left around that were

 6 purposeful.

 7 MIKE KANE: But you haven't been able to --

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, the closest that

 9 I've come to have some believability is this

10 theory that Father Rol came up with. There were

11 psalms, which were circled in the Bible, which

12 apparently were fairly vengeful psalms. 118 Psalms

13 was a vengeful psalm in the King James Bible. It

14 talked about victory (INAUDIBLE). I think I've

15 read it a hundred times, I guess, (INAUDIBLE).

16 I guess I would accept that kind of a tie more

17 than I would the bonus amount.

18 MIKE KANE: Would that figure that you

19 said you had, was it assets?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE), for lack of

21 a better word.

22 MIKE KANE: So it wasn't something that

23 you were trying to approximate what they thought

24 would hurt?



 1 MIKE KANE: You also said yesterday that,

 2 when you were asked, when Lou asked you about just

 3 in mulling this over, over the last 18 months,

 4 that it might be someone who knew your schedule.

 5 What schedule are we talking about, that day or in

 6 general?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had a fairly busy

 8 week and a half planned and we had talked about, I

 9 talked about going up to the lake that day. You

10 know, briefly, we said before we left, do you want

11 to just go Christmas day. And I said, well, you

12 know, the kids had all their toys, and they need

13 to stay with their toys. And we had Christmas

14 dinner with the Whites there that night.

15 So we knew there was going to be some volatility

16 about them being there that day, that night. And

17 certainly we were going to be there until the

18 night before the boat trip, and then just for the

19 evening. And then we were leaving early the next

20 morning.

21 MIKE KANE: So somebody would know that

22 you were there Christmas night?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. It was just blind

24 luck. I mean, most people are at home on Christmas

25 night. It was unfortunate for us a coincidence


 1 that we were.

 2 MIKE KANE: There are these phrases in

 3 here that seem to have some kind of Hollywood

 4 connection? What did you think about that?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: It didn't dawn on me at

 6 the time, because we (INAUDIBLE) so much. But that

 7 came out later. There was a couple of phrases that

 8 came out later: "you must grow a brain"; and we

 9 can talk about the of the fat cat; and other fat

10 cats here, or something like that.

11 MIKE KANE: You're not the only fat cat

12 around.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Those are the phrases

14 that we, you know, later we thought we had heard

15 from people around us who have tried to

16 reconstruct who, where.

17 MIKE KANE: When you say we thought?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy and I.

19 MIKE KANE: Okay. And how was it that you

20 heard?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, grow a brain, fat

22 cats. We'd heard those before.

23 MIKE KANE: Were you ever able to --

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had some names

25 we came up with. We passed on (INAUDIBLE) our


 1 friends in Atlanta, "Atlanta fat cats" later in

 2 that week.

 3 MIKE KANE: When was that specifically?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: That was when she was back;

 5 when we were back for the funeral.

 6 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE) friends saying that

 7 about?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, when we went back, Ron

 9 Westmoreland had like a little reception after the

10 funeral, and some of my friends were there, and he

11 has a beautiful home in Atlanta. He makes a lot of

12 money. It's not a stretch for him to have it. It's

13 very nice.

14 My friends were around me, consoling me and trying

15 to give me advice. And to be a part of that group

16 it's the Atlanta fat cats.

17 MIKE KANE: And grow a brain. Does that

18 ascribe to anybody?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember now. I'm

20 trying to remember that confrontation, but I don't

21 know. But I kind of forget who we came up with on

22 that. Do want me to give any number --



25 JOHN RAMSEY: One of the names that came


 1 up was Jim Reno because Don Paugh, I remember him

 2 saying that in the mall once. "Grow a brain," to

 3 one of the media indigents. And that was one of

 4 the recollections that came up.

 5 MIKE KANE: How about that "listen carefully"?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it didn't really mean much

 7 to me.

 8 MIKE KANE: What about the reference to "the

 9 delivery will be exhausting, so I advise you to be

10 rested"?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, that concerned me because

12 I didn't know whether that meant it was going to

13 be the next day that we'd get a call, and I'd be

14 out of mind by then. Certainly couldn't rest.

15 MIKE KANE: What about connections about

16 having something along that line before?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't have anything


19 MIKE KANE: And likewise, the "talking to the

20 stray dog"?


22 MIKE KANE: Look at the second page --

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It didn't mean anything

24 to me. It doesn't ring a bell. It didn't then.

25 MIKE KANE: Subsequently, now that we've had


 1 discussions, do you know where that might have

 2 come from or an association?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: No, we hadn't really focused

 4 on that.

 5 MIKE KANE: In the ads and the flyers

 6 you put out, did you make references to movies

 7 like "Dirty Harry"; because that was an original

 8 line in "Dirty Harry."

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Is that right?

10 MIKE KANE: You didn't know that until today?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) said that, no.

12 MIKE KANE: Okay. And any discussions about

13 that and going through all of this --

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not the "stray dog" line.

15 We talked about some of the other lines that came

16 out. One of them came out as apparently as this

17 "Ransom" movie, which I never saw. There was

18 similarities, we were told. Some people told us if

19 that it was or if we read the newspaper or what,

20 but apparently there's some very strange

21 similarities to some of these phrases, none of

22 which I don't believe, we had seen or have seen.

23 MIKE KANE: Have you ever seen "Dirty Harry?"

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Seems like I have. That's an

25 old movie, right?


 1 MIKE KANE: Um hmm.

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) that it's Clint

 3 Eastwood, but I don't remember what it's about or


 5 MIKE KANE: Did you see it before, or had

 6 you seen it since?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I haven't seen it since.

 8 If I saw it, it was well before.

 9 MIKE KANE: Did you see that in a theatre or

10 rented it?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember seeing it.

12 I just remember I know the name and it's Clint

13 Eastwood. Usually what we did was we rented. If we

14 watched a movie we rented them. We watched them at

15 home. We very rarely went to the theater. I'm not

16 sure that I did go to the theater and see "Dirty

17 Harry."

18 MIKE KANE: How often did you rent?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Actually not that often.

20 We had a projection, video thing in our bedroom

21 which would probably used it more frequently when

22 we first got it. But the kids watched, they liked

23 their kinds of movies.

24 The thought was when we rented a movie, we put it

25 in the bedroom so we could all pile in the bed and


 1 watch a movie together. But (INAUDIBLE), the kids

 2 liked and I liked the ninja movies and Patsy liked

 3 something else, so. It was always difficult to

 4 rent a movie that appealed to the whole audience.

 5 MIKE KANE: What was it, kind of action

 6 movies?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I liked Harrison Ford

 8 movies, "Indiana Jones", things that have

 9 airplanes and boats and stuff going on. It's

10 entertainment but not -- I liked old movies, you

11 know, the old, old classics.

12 MIKE KANE: What's your favorite movie

13 of all?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: "African Queen".

15 MIKE KANE: what others?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: "Animal House" is one of

17 favorites. I've watched that one probably five

18 times or more. I mean, "African Queen", if I could

19 watch that kind of movie every week, I'd do it.

20 They just don't exist. That's a great movie.

21 MIKEE: Were you with a fraternity?


23 MIKE KANE: And was it (INAUDIBLE) "Animal

24 House"?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE). Not quite as bad.


 1 MIKE KANE: Anyone break a guitar over

 2 your head?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: No, we just rode our

 4 motorcycles and (INAUDIBLE).

 5 MIKE KANE: That movie system that was

 6 up in the bedroom, was that already added when you

 7 had the remodeling done?


 9 MIKE KANE: And do you know how that

10 came about? I mean, was that -- I mean, was it

11 your idea or was it Patsy's?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: That was mine. We had

13 wanted a basement home, which we enjoyed back in

14 Atlanta. Be we never went down in the basement. So

15 it was silly to have that in the basement. Just

16 put in our bedroom where we live, you know, when

17 we're home most of the time.

18 MIKE KANE: Did it have a screen that

19 came down from the ceiling?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. And the room was

21 long so it was kind of a perfect set up to do it.

22 MIKE KANE: So that you never saw the

23 (INAUDIBLE) either before or after? How about some

24 of the other ones that your ad talked about the

25 "Speed"?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I watched "Speed" on an

 2 airplane, and airliner without headphones. And if

 3 you ever watch that movie without the sound, it's

 4 the stupidest movie you can imagine. (INAUDIBLE)

 5 throughout the whole movie. And it didn't have

 6 sound. So I've seen it, but without the sound.

 7 MIKE KANE: Before or since?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Before. When it was out,

 9 it was on one of the airlines.

10 MIKE KANE: When you looked at this and

11 you said that you laid it on the floor and studied

12 it, what did you make of it?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I was panicked. Patsy was

14 by the phone and what should I do, what should I

15 do. And I don't like to use the phone. (INAUDIBLE)

16 cause if there are reservations to be made or this

17 or that I always to get Patsy to do it. That's

18 just the way our family works.

19 MIKE KANE: Even under the circumstances.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Even then.

21 MIKE KANE: Patsy, how was she acting?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: She was hysterical.

23 MIKE KANE: Didn't that concern you, that

24 she would make the call being hysterical?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: No, no. She was said, "what


 1 can I do?" and I said, "Call the police." And she

 2 was standing by the phone. And it was how it

 3 happened. (INAUDIBLE) could talk better. I mean,

 4 she was hysterical at that time. I was just trying

 5 to sort things out and can you call the police.

 6 MIKE KANE: And you had discussed about,

 7 just a little bit about, calling (INAUDIBLE)?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Very briefly. (INAUDIBLE).

 9 MIKE KANE: Okay. Do you remember it

10 specifically saying that?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: It says not to call the police.

12 MIKE KANE: Okay. And you said you said

13 something about, I guess when you were asked about

14 what are your impressions about (INAUDIBLE) how

15 you said something about the possibility of it

16 being a woman? Maybe you could tell me about that

17 a little bit.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, there were apparently some

19 similarities of Patsy's handwriting the notes. All

20 the experts we had looking at it says it's almost

21 at the point of being excluded. But they couldn't

22 quite exclude it because there were just basic

23 things that we all learn to do in handwriting.

24 But I had said (INAUDIBLE) if it's a woman, and he

25 said, no, you can't tell. You can't tell gender by


 1 handwriting. That's just my amateur suspicion. The

 2 fact that apparently there was no (INAUDIBLE).

 3 There were another few reasons.

 4 MIKE KANE: Last July, I think it was, that

 5 you (INAUDIBLE) and I think at that point you said

 6 that you had been thinking about it about, once

 7 again, the possibility of a woman, and you had

 8 thought Priscilla White. (INAUDIBLE), the fat cat

 9 thing.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. We went back to Douglas's

11 analysis that it's somebody you know; it's

12 somebody that's been in the house; it's somebody

13 that's hanging with you who's jealous. And if I

14 put that box around it, and what was subsequently

15 extremely bizarre behavior on both their parts.

16 MIKE KANE: What kind of behavior?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: A lot of it I didn't see,

18 but just heard about it. But when John Fernie

19 wouldn't let Fleet on the airplane because he

20 thought he was too out of control. My brother

21 called, they were supposed to stay at the

22 Westmoreland's and they nearly got cross-wise, and

23 they're two of the nicest people you'll ever meet.

24 They wouldn't stay there.

25 They went and stayed at my brother's and my


 1 brother called me and said that he had a gun in

 2 the house. I was, apparently lost. And he said,

 3 Fleet White just left here and he's on his way

 4 over. I think he's extremely dangerous. I got him

 5 out of the house. Apparently he had those -- and

 6 my brother is as calm and as level headed as any

 7 person I know who is right to the core. Whatever

 8 happened there.

 9 MIKE KANE: What about Priscilla? I think

10 you said (INAUDIBLE)?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Always when there was tending

12 to the children, he was the mom. I mean, he took

13 care of the kids. He was a stay home dad. He

14 wanted to have more kids and Priscilla didn't want

15 to have anything to do with it. He just seemed

16 very attentive to the kids.

17 (INAUDIBLE) if I narrowed that box down any

18 further to, I would pick Priscilla.

19 MIKE KANE: You think she was less (INAUDIBLE)?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Only because it would be

21 very hard for me to believe that Fleet would do

22 such a thing.

23 MIKE KANE: You're saying that it wouldn't

24 be hard that Priscilla would though?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Less hard. And there's a lot


 1 of data that flowed in afterwards to us from

 2 friends that said, you know, Priscilla was very

 3 jealous of Patsy. And they made a comment that

 4 they'd rather eat glass than live in a house like

 5 Rod Westmoreland's. It was hatred for wealth. It

 6 was like strange stuff that was coming out, coming

 7 back.

 8 MIKE KANE: Is Fleet wealthy?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Fleet? I don't have a clue.

10 MIKE KANE: He was always described (INAUDIBLE).

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. (INAUDIBILE). He bought a

12 house; he was apparently to get a mortgage. He

13 kept commenting about his mortgage rate. He didn't

14 have a job and he was pretty open about that .

15 I just assumed that he must had some money stashed

16 away.

17 MIKE KANE: Did Priscilla work?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Well she use to say things

19 were tight and they had to -- cause she was going

20 to go on this trip to New York and Patsy wanted

21 her to go with Kathy and she wouldn't go because

22 they couldn't afford it. So it's hard to tell.

23 MIKE KANE: You also mentioned Jeff Merrick's

24 wife. What was it about that?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Merrick was a guy that


 1 I worked with at AT&T when we first got out of the

 2 Navy. And we went through the management

 3 indoctrination class together and just kind of

 4 became friends and stayed in touch more by

 5 telephone over the next 20 years.

 6 He was good about calling once a year just to stay

 7 hello and he was a real talker, and we always talk

 8 for half an hour. So if felt like I knew him well,

 9 but I didn't.

10 Then he called me, I don't know when it was

11 exactly, but he said that he had just been fired

12 from his job at Snap-On Tools where he had been

13 for 18 years and he needed a job, did we have

14 anything. And I knew he was a distribution guy and

15 we were in the distribution business.

16 So I got kind of excited about it and had him come

17 in for an interview. And we used to use a

18 psychologist to get a profile on the people who

19 we're going to hire. I mean, that's an

20 organization who determines whether people are

21 good or not to do what we're going to hiring them

22 to do.

23 And he got interviewed for them and he was going

24 to work for Don Paugh, my father-in-law. And the

25 psychologist came back and said, no, that's not


 1 the one. He's too big picture. He's not a detail

 2 guy; he's not a hands on guy. Don didn't want to

 3 hire him.

 4 And then Jeff was just insistent and call me at

 5 home, "Hi. Did you guys make a decision yet." And

 6 he'd helped out once. So I kind of forced the

 7 decision, let's hire the guy. It was against

 8 everybody's good judgment. It didn't work out.

 9 Three or four years later, Don finally did what

10 everybody knew pretty much should have been done,

11 was terminate his employment and did it. I did it

12 in as amicable a way as we could so we had time to

13 get back on his feet and (INAUDIBLE). But he just

14 flew off the handle. He said, "Does John know

15 about this?" He said, "I'm going to talk to him."

16 And then I was out of town at the time or

17 something. And I guess he became very verbally

18 violent. And he sat in my office and said, "I'm

19 going to bring you to your knees." And I said,

20 "Jeff, you wouldn't be in here if we weren't

21 friends." And I said, "I'm not going to override

22 something that somebody in this organization has

23 done. I still consider you a friend."

24 It was just a very -- and he filed a grievance

25 with Lockheed ethics group and Lockheed is very


 1 sensitive about ethics in government contracting

 2 businesses. And he wrote this big, long letter

 3 about Don and I and the company and how we


 5 Lockheed brought in people and we were

 6 investigated for weeks. But we cleared up

 7 everything. But he was a very hostile (INAUDIBLE)

 8 so when the people asked if there was anybody at

 9 work (INAUDIBLE).

10 MIKE KANE: What about his wife?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: I always thought his wife

12 was kind of strange. Jeff was married to, what I

13 always thought was a nice lady. They had a couple

14 of kids. They got divorced. It was a pretty

15 hostile divorce. He was always hauling him into

16 court. (INAUDIBLE) precipitated in divorce, this

17 woman he worked with.

18 Her kids didn't live with her, which is strange.

19 She was divorced; the kids lived with their dad. I

20 (INAUDIBLE) thought it was kind of odd. So she was

21 as angry as Jeff.

22 MIKE KANE: Was he married to that second

23 wife when this all happened?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

25 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE) she was his angry


 1 wife behind her husband who as mad as the devil at

 2 anything. I could see, perhaps, that she wasn't

 3 the sweet loving mother.

 4 MIKE KANE: Go on, go ahead.

 5 LOU SMIT: I just have another question

 6 on Jeff Merrick. I have something in the report,

 7 and I'm going to have to do just a little research

 8 on it, but I think that there was something about

 9 a $100,000 figure (INAUDIBLE) was what his payoff

10 was. And I kind of compare that with a $118,000

11 just to see if there was any correlation there?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: See, when he first demanded

13 what he wanted, to leave without making a fuss, I

14 think it was $250,000. And I forget the logic, but

15 if you took that number and subtracted what he

16 actually got left, a hundrerdish thousand about.

17 LOU SMIT: That's what I was wondering about,

18 because it could have been 118 that you owed him

19 or something. And he just figured that.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember exactly.

21 I remember coming up with around a hundred.

22 (INAUDIBLE) but I don't remember any kind of 118.

23 We gave him the severance. We paid for outsource

24 or outplacement counseling. There were a number of

25 things that we did in that up to the $250,000.


 1 LOU SMIT: Is there a way of determining that?

 2 I mean, I'm thinking he told me 118 thousand.

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I think Gary Yearman, he was HR

 4 director, and still is. He would have remembered

 5 it very well, because he handled it.

 6 MIKE KANE: Access is still (INAUDIBLE) is

 7 still (INAUDIBLE)?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I guess he was (INAUDIBLE)

 9 the whole episode. Don Paugh also because he was

10 the supervisor.

11 MIKE KANE: You said that you don't actually

12 look at that and some similarities. What

13 similarities do you no in Patsy's handwriting.


15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't see any. I mean,

16 it was sloppy; Patsy has very nice handwriting.

17 MIKE KANE: Um hmm. If someone were

18 attempting to disguise their handwriting though,

19 is there any lettering?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I mean, it was almost

21 like child writing when I first looked at it. It

22 certainly doesn't look like anybody's writing.

23 MIKE KANE: Any of the letters as opposed

24 to just the whole thing?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I really don't.


 1 MIKE KANE: You don't see any similarities?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: You said that you didn't notice

 3 anything; it got better on the third page.


 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I looked at them side by

 6 side. There's was quite a dramatic difference.


 8 JOHN RAMSEY: I was looking at the content,

 9 I wasn't looking at that kind of stuff.

10 MIKE KANE: Do you remember discussing

11 this with any of the anybody and pointing out this

12 is very scratchy and this is much more



15 LOU SMIT: We are on and I should note that

16 it's right at one o'clock, and it's still on

17 Wednesday the 24th of June. Everybody is present

18 that was present before and we're ready to

19 continue. And Mike Kane will start out with the

20 questioning.

21 MIKE KANE: Okay. We were talking about

22 the ransom note and the handwriting on that. I

23 believe when we broke. Once again you know your

24 wife's handwriting better than anybody. Is there

25 anything in here that you've see would rule her


 1 out?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it's a bizarre note.

 3 It's a bizarre thought process. That would rule

 4 her out, number one. Patsy just doesn't have that

 5 capacity to think that way. I don't know. That's

 6 out of the question. That's absolutely out of the

 7 question.

 8 MIKE KANE: Are there any particular words

 9 and phrases that you think would, I mean, out of

10 that whole context of it, any particular words or

11 phrases that you think is --

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, having a mother talk

13 about beheading your child is just nonsense. This

14 is written by a very sick person, in my opinion.

15 MIKE KANE: Do you get, in reading that,

16 if the person that wrote is trying to frame you or

17 frame her?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I don't because,

19 frankly, I thought this myself. If somebody really

20 wanted to frame us, they wouldn't have left a

21 note.

22 MIKE KANE: Why do you think that?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well that's evidence that I

24 didn't write it; Patsy didn't write it. The

25 handwriting experts have said Patsy or I didn't


 1 write it. Our guys have said on a scale of one to

 2 five, Patsy is 4.5 five against not writing it.

 3 I think that whoever did this is very, very insane

 4 and clever. Because it looks different as well as

 5 some other stuff we've seen. So I think they were

 6 teasing us.

 7 MIKE KANE: By leaving the (INAUDIBLE)?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Just like these all these

 9 other little clues you see being left around?

10 MIKE KANE: Teasing you or teasing the police?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Teasing all of us.

12 MIKE KANE: What I'm thinking about teasing,

13 do you think that there's anything in there that's

14 trying purposely (INAUDIBLE) say a diversion to

15 fool the police or to fool you?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it certainly bought

17 some time. I think everybody assumed JonBenet was

18 not in the house. Maybe it was an attempt to get

19 money. I don't know. I could have been attempt to

20 get money. I don't know. I could have been a

21 legitimate attempt to get money. But maybe because

22 of the police activity or whatever, they didn't

23 follow through at that end. I don't know.

24 MIKE KANE: Do you have anything about the

25 note?


 1 LOU SMIT: No.

 2 MIKE KANE: The autopsy report, have you

 3 seen it?


 5 MIKE KANE: You haven't seen it?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I have not. I can't look at

 7 that.

 8 MIKE KANE: Okay. Have you discussed in general

 9 what's in there, in general?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Very little. It's hard to discuss

11 with her accidentally (INAUDIBLE).

12 MIKE KANE: What would that be?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: That there was her skull

14 fracture; that there were abrasions in her pubic

15 area; two of her organs were swollen which

16 indicated a slow death.

17 MIKE KANE: Did you do your own investigation

18 into this? Did you have any experts look into

19 those -- like you said there were bruises in the

20 pubic area?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know if we did.

22 MIKE KANE: I mean here, now?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I know. No, not to my knowledge.

24 MIKE KANE: I'll bring another aspect about

25 the (INAUDIBLE) fragments.


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think we've had

 2 pathologists look into the report, but I don't

 3 know where or what they said.

 4 MIKE KANE: You never received the report

 5 then?




 9 MIKE KANE: How about Mrs. Ramsey?


11 MIKE KANE: What do you understand about

12 that trauma, vaginal trauma?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: It's something I don't like

14 to think about. I don't understand or read

15 anything about it, because there are certain facts

16 that I just can't bear to know.

17 MIKE KANE: There has been some discussions

18 that I've heard since I've gotten involved in the

19 case that perhaps that it was prior vaginal

20 trauma. Now, I'm not talking sex assault or sex

21 abuse or some indications at least, that there may

22 have been something prior.

23 Is there anything that you can think of that would

24 account for that? Any opportunities she would have

25 had to be alone with somebody or even something


 1 innocently that might account for that?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, certainly not that

 3 we're aware of. I mean the kids stay with

 4 babysitters from time to time. Susan Savage was a

 5 babysitter, a family babysitter that the kids

 6 would stay with. They stayed with her for a few

 7 other.

 8 Patsy's mother did a lot. She would come out and

 9 stay with the kids if were going to be gone for a

10 while. There was a young college, well she's in

11 college, but she's college-aged girl who sat for

12 us several years before that if we needed her to.

13 (INAUDIBLE) watch the kids.

14 I remember Patsy when she went down to the

15 (INAUDIBLE). But it had been regular at that time.

16 I don't think I can remember.

17 MIKE KANE: Were there any short-term

18 babysitters like if you go out for the evening?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well even Susan used to

20 do that a lot.

21 MIKE KANE: Okay.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: This other girl did before

23 that. Susan pretty much lived for us when Patsy

24 had cancer that year. She did live with us. She

25 was there from dawn till dusk for literally for


 1 the whole year. (INAUDIBLE).

 2 MIKE KANE: Any other family members sit

 3 with than your mother-in-law?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Don Paugh stayed for

 5 a few times, cause he was their grandfather. Or

 6 even they would go to his place. He had an

 7 apartment over on Pearl Street. Not often or for

 8 very long. You know, for an hour or two here.

 9 MIKE KANE: And overnights?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, there might have been

11 one or two. If we were going to be out late and we

12 didn't' want to wake the kids up when they come

13 home.

14 MIKE KANE: What do they think about them?

15 You know there are certain babysitters you say,

16 (INAUDIBLE) you can't wait, and another on they

17 say they don't want hear about. Are they any?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I can recall.

19 MIKE KANE: Did they enjoy staying with their

20 grandfather?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

22 MIKE KANE: And with Susan.

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. As I recall, I think

24 probably the babysitter they weren't going to get

25 to go (INAUDIBLE). They only like to go and sleep.


 1 So babysitters in general might (INAUDIBLE) a

 2 particularly welcome sight.

 3 LOU SMIT: How about neighbors, John? Any

 4 of your neighbors (INAUDIBLE)?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: That babysat?

 6 LOU SMIT: I don't think so. I don't think

 7 anyone?

 8 MIKE KANE: Was there ever, I've never

 9 seen her medical records but I heard that you

10 talked about comments about I noticed she had

11 (INAUDIBLE) at certain times. Was there ever

12 treatment that you or Mrs. Ramsey had to do at

13 home for that?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I did. I don't know.

15 MIKE KANE: Any antibiotic treatment or anything?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: If there was, that was kind of

17 between Patsy and her, you know.

18 MIKE KANE: Any other questions?

19 LOU SMIT: Would there have been anything

20 -- I know there was a bedwetting problem or

21 something. And they do have certain kinds of

22 devices for bedwetting to avoid the leak. I don't

23 know what that means. But anything on that ever

24 occurred that you recall?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean we read about that,


 1 and of course, I don't know if JonBenet had a

 2 bedwetting problem; I'm not sure she did. I think

 3 all kids wet their beds; I know my older kids

 4 certainly did. The kids used to wear these all

 5 night pampers or whatever they were called. I

 6 wouldn't classify it as a bedwetting problem that

 7 I was aware of.

 8 MIKE KANE: You weren't aware of one?


10 MIKE KANE: I guess that's relative term,

11 a bedwetting problem. And I don't mean to define

12 it, but just for our purposes here, let's define

13 it as once a week.


15 MIKE KANE: Let's say that is a problem.

16 Were you aware whether under that definition that

17 maybe once a week or more that she would wet the

18 bed?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I wasn't even aware of that.

20 But I think that wouldn't be at all abnormal.

21 MIKE KANE: Based on?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Based on having raised four

23 older kids. I don't know. Melinda would

24 occasionally wet her bed. She would have been

25 Burke's age. I don't think she was much older.


 1 MIKE KANE: Was she treated for that?


 3 MIKE KANE: How about your other children?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not that I'm aware of.

 5 MIKE KANE: Do you have any specific recollection

 6 of the other children?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well John Henry did, I think,

 8 occasionally (INAUDIBLE). (INAUDIBLE) diaper stage

 9 to no diapers.

10 MIKE KANE: But beyond us, I think that's

11 two or three years old, six or seven.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I think that was very

13 normal in our family.

14 MIKE KANE: So there was never any discussions

15 that you had with anybody: with a doctor, with

16 Mrs. Ramsey about it being a problem?


18 MIKE KANE: Okay. Her bed apparently had

19 a plastic wrap around. Were you aware of it?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, it doesn't surprise me as

21 what we would have done.

22 MIKE KANE: Would have done?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well she hadn't gotten fully

24 trained or whatever the word is. All the kids have

25 that on their beds. (INAUDIBLE).


 1 MIKE KANE: Would there be a time that it

 2 was more likely that it would happen than other

 3 times?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. As I recall,

 5 we would always try to get both Burke and JonBenet

 6 to go to the bathroom before they went to bed.

 7 Sometimes that's hard if they were asleep. If they

 8 fell asleep watching television or driving in the

 9 car, and we always hated to wake them up.

10 Sometimes we didn't, usually.

11 MIKE KANE: Is there some other times

12 that she it might have been more likely that she

13 wet the bed?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I can remember that was

15 something Patsy was trying to do, is we would get

16 them to go the bathroom before they went to bed.

17 MIKE KANE: I don't know what the heck

18 the meaning of this is, but I'll (INAUDIBLE). One

19 of the things of which I found curious, I don't

20 know why it's curious, but it is to me.

21 Your house is obviously a pretty big house and

22 pretty well appointed. You would know, there was

23 no thing for the toilet paper to hang on in her

24 bathrooms.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: When we found that house,


 1 it was not finished. I had remodeled it and got it

 2 95 percent done. Then we never occupied it. We put

 3 it on the market. And so there were light fixtures

 4 and little things just like that. (INAUDIBLE)

 5 Patsy's remodeling had really kind of messed up

 6 the house as far as what we required. So we had to

 7 do a very extensive remodel and go back and put in

 8 all those little light fixtures. It was something

 9 that we needed to put in. Those are the things

10 that (INAUDIBLE).

11 LOU SMIT: I want to show him just one.

12 MIKE KANE: Yeah.

13 LOU SMIT: This is a picture of a toilet here.

14 Take a look at that?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it looks like it has

16 been used but not flushed. Right. And that would

17 have been taken fairly shortly in the after the

18 scene.

19 We were just wondering if it was her habit not to

20 flush or would she have gone to the bathroom that

21 nigh?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy would know better than

23 I. But I don't think the kids are particularly

24 good about flushing the toilet. So that could have

25 been earlier. I don't know.


 1 LOU SMIT: By the way, that's photo number

 2 19.

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: JonBenet had to have to

 4 have been very tired that night. She'd been up

 5 early for Christmas. They had been playing all

 6 day. It was just the whole day. She was absolutely

 7 sound asleep when I put her to bed. And I can't

 8 imagine her to have even gotten up to go to the

 9 bathroom.

10 LOU SMIT: Even after she had gone to bed,

11 would she have get up and drink anything


13 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I don't know for sure.

14 Burke does now, but I don't know that she did it.

15 MIKE KANE: You said that they always had

16 plastic wrapped on their beds. Do you know if

17 Burke did?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Do you mean now or back then?

19 MIKE KANE: Back then.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. He might have.

21 But, I don't know.

22 MIKE KANE: Do you remember when, in fact,

23 she wet the bed?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know.

25 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)? What would she do?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: In fact, the only reason

 2 I would know if the kids wet their beds is if the

 3 sheets were off the bed in the morning.

 4 MIKE KANE: And then what?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Wash them, put new ones on.

 6 It was just no big deal.

 7 MIKE KANE: All right. Do you have any

 8 other questions in that area?

 9 LOU SMIT: I was wondering a little bit

10 about the second floor laundry and how that was

11 laid out there?

12 MIKE KANE: Yes, I was going to ask that.

13 Do you recall (INAUDIBLE)? Let's talk about the

14 remodeling. When did you purchase that house?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: It was in the fall of '90,

16 I believe. (INAUDIBLE).

17 MIKE KANE: Okay.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: And we looked for about

19 six months. We lived in an apartment.

20 MIKE KANE: Where was that?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: We stayed with Don Paugh

22 in Pearl Street. It was one that we rented when we

23 first started commuting. Instead of staying in a

24 hotel, we rented an apartment. And then buying

25 this house, which need some work.


 1 MIKE KANE: Were there additions on there

 2 at the time you bought the house?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: That was on.

 4 MIKE KANE: It just hadn't been finished?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that part of it was

 6 actually okay. What hadn't been finished was the

 7 third floor bedroom area. It was finished but it

 8 wasn't done very well.

 9 They kind of gutted the second floor, the old part

10 of the second floor and made one big room. And we

11 wanted bedrooms there. They had elevator shafts

12 right through the middle of the house. It was just

13 put in the worst spot because it tore up the every

14 floor it went through. And that had to go.

15 So it was just really, it was an older couple and

16 she had a bad leg, and they put the elevator so

17 that she could get up and down. It was made for

18 them and nobody else. And we tore it out once we

19 bought it.

20 MIKE KANE: When did you start remodeling

21 that?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably shortly after we

23 bought it. And it went on for quite two or three

24 years in bits and pieces. We had it totally

25 finished before this Historic Home Tour, which I


 1 think was in '94.

 2 One of the reasons I wanted to be in the Historic

 3 Home Tour was so we'd get it finished. And we'd

 4 draw a line in the sand and say, it's done. I

 5 remember that.

 6 MIKE KANE: So was decorating kind of a

 7 continuing process?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was. We didn't

 9 really get into decorating the house much because

10 we had spent so much time and money on remodeling.

11 So by the time we got that done we were just,

12 that's it.

13 MIKE KANE: Who made the decision on

14 remodeling? You know, of what content, design

15 specifics? Was it you or was it Patsy?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I like that stuff. I wish

17 I would have been more (INAUDIBLE). So I avoid

18 doing that kind of thing. I usually come up with

19 the mechanical layout. Patsy was good at

20 decorating with colors and so forth. That's kind

21 of the way it worked.

22 MIKE KANE: Did you ever have a disagreement

23 over what you're spending on this or what you were

24 going to put into it?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. But I don't remember


 1 what was said in every process. I mean I couldn't

 2 add up. And I was afraid to for a long time.


 4 MIKE KANE: That's it? (INAUDIBLE) income tax.

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) how deep I was

 6 in the house just to satisfy my curiosity. But no,

 7 that was not an issue.

 8 MIKE KANE: Was that second floor laundry

 9 room there in the old -

10 JOHN RAMSEY: The sink and cabinets were

11 there. We relocated that circular stairway, the

12 spiral stairway and put the laundry (INAUDIBLE) in

13 there.

14 MIKE KANE: So the spiral staircase wasn't

15 there originally?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: It was there but it was twisted.

17 There was a door down below. We probably had 20

18 doors in our house. There were many doors. But

19 that's that area was kind of (INAUDIBLE). I think

20 that was closet. We had that changed to that

21 stackable washer/dryer there.

22 MIKE KANE: And when was that done?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, the house was kind of

24 done in two phases. The first phase was the first

25 floor, which probably could have been where the


 1 spiral staircase -- so that probably would have

 2 been done from the first phase. Yeah, the second

 3 phase was with the third floor. So '91, '92,

 4 probably through '93.

 5 MIKE KANE: And why was that washer/dryer --

 6 that's not a full size washer/dryer as I can see?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: We wanted a washing

 8 machine/dryer on the second floor so we could just

 9 take the clothes. The basement's not a

10 particularly nice basement and it was just too far

11 to take the clothes down. It wasn't by the

12 bedrooms. I don't care. I don't ever (INAUDIBLE)

13 or something like that, I don't think Patsy ever

14 used those washer and dryer in the basement.

15 MIKE KANE: Who usually did the laundry?

16 (INAUDIBLE) I always have.

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy usually does it.

18 Yeah, she usually does it. We had a cleaning lady

19 would come once or twice a week, but I don't know

20 if she did the laundry.

21 MIKE KANE: The cleaning lady is Linda

22 Hoffman?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, she's the cleaning

24 lady most recently. For a year or two there was a

25 couple of girls who used to come during the day


 1 that were kind of one of those cleaning service.

 2 They just came to clean the house and then someone

 3 let them out.

 4 I don't think we had anybody before that. (INAUD).

 5 MIKE KANE: So you had like a service

 6 and then Linda --

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

 8 MIKE KANE: -- became the regular?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

10 LOU SMIT: I just had a quick question.

11 I just want to know if they had any problems with

12 them? Did Patsy or yourself ever go down and help

13 JonBenet? Did she ever cry or indicate that she

14 had wet her bed or anything like that? Do you

15 remember anything like that.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: No. No. I don't remember if

17 it was Burke or JonBenet, but they would change

18 beds if they had an accident. They would start

19 doing that and usually if they were uncomfortable

20 they'd just change beds.

21 LOU SMIT: Can you remember Patsy getting

22 up to go down and help JonBenet?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I can't. I can't remember.

24 I mean not that she called out.

25 LOU SMIT: How about JonBenet herself?


 1 Did she have any concerns about bedwetting? Did

 2 she ever say anything to you or do you remember

 3 discussions with JonBenet about her bedwetting?


 5 MIKE KANE: Did she ever talk to you about

 6 this? Did she say I have accidents, Daddy, or

 7 something like that?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: This just wasn't an issue at all.

 9 MIKE KANE: In the general maintenance of the

10 house, and I think you mentioned Mervin Pew fixed

11 that thing in the bathroom. Or for little things

12 around the house, do your remember how they would

13 taken care of? Or would you take care of them?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I'd take care of a few

15 things, but not much. I fixed the roof once.

16 MIKE KANE: Where was that?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: A squirrel had chewed a hole

18 through the roof where it joined the new part,

19 yeah.


21 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

22 MIKE KANE: What did you do?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I just took a piece of tin and

24 formed it around and tarred it.

25 MIKE KANE: And that was outside up on the


 1 roof?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 3 MIKE KANE: Not on the top.

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: It was on the black part,

 5 the top black part.

 6 MIKE KANE: I believe that I did go to the

 7 houses. I know it's kind a flat roof area off of

 8 the bathroom. Is that where you found that?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it's above that. And

10 typically, it hadn't been working for two or three

11 years, and I got things that needed fixing and I

12 got to fix them. But once the house was done, we

13 had the guy who used to mow the yard, Patsy had

14 the Bob Wallace wash the windows once or twice.

15 On occasion we'd call (INAUDIBLE). That's about

16 it.

17 MIKE KANE: That auxiliary in the back,

18 is it another boiler?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

20 MIKE KANE: Was that part of the renovations?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

22 MIKE KANE: To add extra heating capacity?


24 MIKE KANE: Now you said that Vern Lapue,

25 on that occasion was looking to make a little


 1 extra money and stuff like that? How did that come

 2 about?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy arranged it, so

 4 I'm just going by hearsay. I think they were in

 5 our house over Thanksgiving while we were gone and

 6 doing other things: cleaning windows, fixing that

 7 tile in the shower. Patsy gave them a list of

 8 things to do. I think it was just Linda and her

 9 husband. But I'm not positive.

10 MIKE KANE: Had she ever hired him to do

11 any kind of maintenance in the house?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't think so.

13 MIKE KANE: After that Thanksgiving weekend,

14 do you know if Vern La Peu was ever back in the

15 house to do any other types of those things?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Not to my knowledge.

17 MIKE KANE: And was it him that brought it up,

18 that he can fix it, or was he asked, do you know?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know.

20 MIKE KANE: Did he volunteer?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: My recollection is they needed

22 some work and Patsy gave them something to do. So

23 I don't know which one -- I wasn't even aware that

24 they were there until we were gone. That was just

25 something she would take care of.


 1 MIKE KANE: There's been a lot of (INAUDIBLE)

 2 about people who had keys. So I don't want to

 3 belabor that point. But you said yesterday that

 4 you had a garage door opener. Was one in each car?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: There were three or four.

 6 There was one in each car. Well, I take that back.

 7 There were three garage openers. The cars we had

 8 most recently had those kind of new programs. So

 9 whether the garage door opener is in the car or

10 not, I open it in the unit. So there was a

11 separate unit.

12 There was won that we put out under the barbecue

13 grill cover once for a while as just kind of a

14 backup for us getting in the garage.


16 JOHN RAMSEY: It was prior to December '96,

17 but I would say it was in '96 some time. I think

18 my son had a garage door opener in his car.

19 LOU SMIT: By the way, where was John

20 Andrew's car at night?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: He had parked it, I think

22 down near where he lived on the hill. And

23 (INAUDIBLE) parking in the driveway or something

24 like that.

25 LOU SMIT: No one was in charge of (INAUDIBLE)?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: It was just parked.

 2 LOU SMIT: Any other garage door opener

 3 In his car?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I believe so.

 5 LOU SMIT: Any of his friends have access

 6 to his car that you remember?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I aware of. I

 8 wouldn't be surprised if they did. But I don't

 9 know anything, no.

10 LOU SMIT: I Just have one more question.

11 And it was just a follow up question. You said

12 that when you took JonBenet on Christmas evening,

13 you had her in your arms and went inside the

14 garage door. And then who closed that garage door?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember.

16 LOU SMIT: Or was it closed?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I can't say for sure that it

18 was. I don't know. We had had other occasions

19 where we just forgot to close it. And most likely

20 Patsy closed it.

21 MIKE KANE: Did you talk her with her

22 about that (INAUDIBLE)?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. No we didn't. So I don't

24 actually know. Although I think I would have. I

25 don't remember if I ever looked that morning in


 1 the garage. I might have. I don't remember closing

 2 it.

 3 LOU SMIT: When you went out the next morning,

 4 was it closed or open?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I would have noticed

 6 if it was opened. I didn't go around back to see

 7 it, when I went to check that little side door.

 8 But I think I would have noticed if it was open.

 9 But it looks like it was closed.

10 LOU SMIT: If you're up in your bedroom,

11 can you hear the garage door going up and down?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I think you can, yeah. I

13 think so.

14 LOU SMIT: Did you hear the garage door

15 going up or down?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I didn't.

17 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE) yesterday, you

18 said what was on in the inside. Where on the

19 inside?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was right there.

21 MIKE KANE: Right inside the door?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

23 MIKE KANE: To the left as you walked through

24 the door?



 1 MIKE KANE: What was your daily routine

 2 on a normal working day?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I'd usually wake up naturally,

 4 without my alarm clock. I usually wake up 6:30 or

 5 so, when the sun came up. I'd get up and take a

 6 shower.

 7 MIKE KANE: The sun wake you up?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Normally.

 9 MIKE KANE: In the winter time (INAUDIBLE)?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I cannot sleep late. I've never

11 been able sleep late. So I'm always waking up

12 between six and seven.

13 MIKE KANE: Do you wake up during the night

14 at all?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I would usually get up once

16 a night to use the bathroom.


18 JOHN RAMSEY: Only if they were loud or

19 the

20 phone rang or if there was some loud commotion

21 outside.

22 MIKE KANE: You said you windows open

23 so if the kids were partying in the neighborhood,

24 you remember that?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Right, right.


 1 MIKE KANE: That would wake you up?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: In the past, yeah.

 3 MIKE KANE: You ever call the police or

 4 anything for something like that?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Doesn't make sense.

 6 It usually died down after a while.



 9 MIKE KANE: Would you hear more from the

10 alley or from the street from the kids?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: I never heard anything from

12 the alley. It would tend to sound like it was from

13 down the street, down 15th, towards campus.

14 MIKE KANE: Do the windows in that area

15 up there; were they all open a little?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. Yeah. These are

17 all new windows that we put in.

18 MIKE KANE: I see.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: And they were all openable.

20 MIKE KANE: Is it the crank type?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. They were all crank

22 types. These are all lift up. They would open all

23 the way and we had shutters so we didn't

24 (INAUDIBLE), no.

25 MIKE KANE: And which windows did you


 1 leave cracked?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Usually it was this one.

 3 Just that one. Except if it was really hot, I'd

 4 crank those open. These are hard to get to because

 5 the couch is in front of them.

 6 MIKE KANE: Okay. I'm sorry. You were talking

 7 about your typical day. You get up on your own?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I usually take a shower.

 9 Go to the bathroom and take a shower. I usually

10 take a shower in the morning. That's the way it's

11 always been. I usually shave in the shower with a

12 disposal razor or sometimes a use and electrical

13 razor at the sink.

14 I usually get dressed partly. Sometimes I go down

15 and make coffee and come back up and get dressed.

16 Just turn on the television and watch the news and

17 the weather channel before I went to work. I

18 usually leave for work at eight or 8:30.

19 MIKE KANE: Did Mrs. Ramsey normally get up

20 after you?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, usually.

22 MIKE KANE: Would your getting up wake

23 her up or did she use an alarm?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: No, she didn't use an alarm.

25 She either woke up or I woke her up.


 1 MIKE KANE: By the time that you left, she

 2 was up generally?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well she

 4 would get up and get the kids ready for school.

 5 That and so forth.

 6 MIKE KANE: On a non-school day, would

 7 the kids wake up on their own or do they use and

 8 alarm, do you know?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: No, they would just wake up

10 normally. Quite often they would get up earlier

11 on a non-school day and lay down and watching

12 cartoons or something.

13 MIKE KANE: Did you know if it was the

14 same time on the weekends as the weekdays?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Not too far off. I usually

16 wake up around the same time.

17 MIKE KANE: And would both kids get up

18 around the same time?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, pretty much, pretty much.

20 MIKE KANE: You couldn't say which one was

21 the earlier riser?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm trying to remember actually.

23 I used to joke how I wanted them to be a great

24 colleges student, I forget which one it was. I

25 think it was Burke.



 2 JOHN RAMSEY: They were sleeping in. I

 3 think Patsy might remember.

 4 MIKE KANE: And so when they got up they

 5 would kind of just turn on the TV?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, turn on the TV. And

 7 sometimes they would be playing, what we call here

 8 this TV room (INAUDIBLE).

 9 MIKE KANE: Okay. So by eight, 8:30 you

10 were out of the house and you'd go to your office?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

12 MIKE KANE: I mean, this is obvious, that

13 you did have a typical days a lot of days. But if

14 this was a typical day, would you have lunch at

15 the office, go out to lunch, go home for lunch?

16 MIKE KANE: If it was either, we'd go out.

17 I usually like to get there at 8:30 because that's

18 when office hours start and I wanted to set an

19 example. And usually go out, one or two people,

20 just happen to go around the block up to the mall

21 and decide what I wanted to eat.

22 Sometimes I'd go by myself and get a

23 hotdog and bring it back to my desk.

24 MIKE KANE: Did you go home to eat very

25 often?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Not very often, no.

 2 MIKE KANE: And how late would you normally

 3 stay?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, 5:30, 6:00, usually.

 5 MIKE KANE: And then would you come right

 6 home?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

 8 MIKE KANE: Were there any occasions when

 9 you had an evening meeting?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well certainly when I first

11 got involved in the business I used to have to go

12 out to dinner a lot when we had people in town.

13 But after Beth died I just don't do that anymore,

14 yeah, only when necessary. I was pretty selective

15 when I'd go out to dinner when people were in

16 town.

17 MIKE KANE: So when you came home in

18 the evening, would dinner be ready?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, we eat out a lot. We

20 stayed in too. When either Patsy would have

21 something that she's cooked or we go to Pasta

22 Jay's or we probably ate out two or three times a

23 week. (INAUDIBLE) kind of places.

24 MIKE KANE: The kids liked that?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.




 3 MIKE KANE: The kids want to eat out.

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) that's my ideal

 5 place to go.

 6 MIKE KANE: How about JonBenet?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: They just kind of went with

 8 the flow. Burke more than her, if I recall, he

 9 likes to eat at home. He likes his free time. He

10 doesn't like to be (INAUDIBLE) to do things. And

11 she wasn't that way. (INAUDIBLE).


13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I'd go during school

14 days or a school day. (INAUDIBLE) Patsy and Burke,

15 or (INAUDIBLE) they used to watch the business

16 channel in the morning. Those were the only two

17 channels I watched on television.

18 The kids would be in bed by 8:30, 9:00.

19 And we'd go to bed shortly thereafter.

20 MIKE KANE: Were they

21 difficult to get to bed, either of them?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: No, not

23 really. If there had something going on, they'd

24 sometimes put up an argument. They used to like to

25 watch the movies when they went to bed. Sometimes


 1 we would let them do that. That was about the only

 2 argument we had, whether or not they could watch

 3 the movie that night. It wasn't an argument, it

 4 was just a discussion.

 5 MIKE KANE: What kinds of things broke

 6 you out of your routine (INAUDBILE) your routine

 7 would be disrupted?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, my travel, of course.

 9 Patsy did a lot of -- she was in school a lot. I

10 think mostly it was just traveling. If I wasn't

11 traveling, there wasn't anything else.

12 MIKE KANE: And where do you travel?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, California, frequently

14 Europe, Mexico occasionally, Canada occasionally.

15 I really didn't frequent the East Coast. I

16 eventually fly California the most. San Francisco

17 mostly.

18 MIKE KANE: And that was to go to offices

19 of Access or (INAUDIBLE)?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: It was mainly to meet with

21 just suppliers or going to Lockheed to them.

22 MIKE KANE: Lockheed had a lot of influence

23 in the day-to-day operation?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: No, they didn't pay attention

25 to us all for several years. And then as we got


 1 bigger they started to pay attention to us. They

 2 just let us ran own business.

 3 MIKE KANE: How often did you go to

 4 California for?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, probably once a month I

 6 supposed.

 7 MIKE KANE: How long on average?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, we'd go for how long?

 9 MIKE KANE: Yeah.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I try to just do overnights,

11 sometimes one-day trips, but I didn't like to go

12 out and spend two or three days. I tried to work

13 it so I could go out in the morning and come back

14 the next afternoon.

15 MIKE KANE: Did you usually go commercial?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I do that sometimes.

17 MIKE KANE: Is there a reason for that?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was usually cheaper.

19 It was quicker.

20 MIKE KANE: To go commercial?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, if you go to somewhere

22 like where San Francisco was, cause you can fly

23 directly there with the airlines, I didn't want to

24 go out. Some of us think you don't ask the

25 question unless you know the answer, but I had a


 1 feeling that Lockheed wouldn't be too excited

 2 about me using my airplane for business travel. So

 3 I just didn't do it.

 4 MIKE KANE: Did they closely watch the bottom

 5 line?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well that's just a liability

 7 issue. A lot of companies don't like employees to

 8 use their private airplanes for travel. They knew

 9 if I could rent a jet, then they wouldn't say a

10 thing. But I just had a feeling it would be an

11 issue so I really didn't do it much. I used it a

12 couple of times when we were going somewhere that

13 it would be real pain to go on the airline.

14 MIKE KANE: And how often did you go to

15 Europe (INAUDIBLE)?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we opened an office,

17 we opened for business in Europe in '93 or 4, and

18 I did several trips just to kind of understand the

19 market and some of the suppliers that we

20 potentially could work with and just kind of a

21 research business to understand what we're getting

22 into.

23 And then we opened an office and I used

24 to visit that office maybe twice a year.

25 MIKE KANE: Where is it? Do you have


 1 several?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we opened in Amsterdeem,

 3 Netherlands. That was our main office. And then

 4 we, over time, had an office, we bought a small

 5 company in Bristol, England, and had an office in

 6 Paris. I think those were the only three offices I

 7 visited: Bristol, Paris and Amsterdeen.

 8 MIKE KANE: And what was it that your

 9 company distributed?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Basically all (INAUDIBLE)

11 work stations and associated software, (INAUDIBLE)

12 products.

13 MIKE KANE: Is that unique to (INAUDIBLE)?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: PC units.

15 MIKE KANE: PC units. Right. Where was

16 the first office that you opened in Europe?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Amsterdam.

18 MIKE KANE: Amsterdam?


20 Amsterdam.

21 MIKE KANE: What lead up to that?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, expansion. We were

23 growing. Sun Microsystems was a big part of our

24 business. We were trying to develop some balance,

25 develop new sources. One of the way we could do


 1 that was to move geographically.

 2 One of the fundamental things I'd always

 3 done in the past was (INAUDIBLE) my own

 4 self-critique, so I didn't want to be caught in

 5 that making that mistake. So I felt that for us to

 6 be successful long term, long term being ten years

 7 out, to get people to our company so we have the

 8 mass and the efficiency as well as the reach to do

 9 what we did globally.

10 Actually the first expansion was in

11 Canada because we felt that would be easiest. It

12 wasn't (INAUDIBLE), it was close, same language.

13 So actually we opened up in Canada first, got our

14 feet wet. And then our parent, the Lockheed

15 people, (INAUDIBLE) encouraged us to go to Europe

16 and get that going. So we did.

17 MIKE KANE: And who made

18 the decision and how did you make a decision on

19 like where in Canada? Would that be something that

20 as CEO would make or was it board decision?


22 basically made those kinds of decision because we

23 didn't have an active board. Those are my choices

24 totally.

25 MIKE KANE: And the same with the European


 1 sites?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: As far as the Amsterdam

 3 location.

 4 MIKE KANE: And what was the hitch there?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I looked in Amsterdam,

 6 I looked in Brussels, both of which had labor

 7 bases with multilingual. They were neutral

 8 countries in terms of emotions. It was pretty much

 9 a rule of thumb, you didn't want to be in France,

10 Germany or England because one of the three hated

11 the other and you couldn't be successful unless

12 you were in a small country. There were all the

13 historical emotions you had deal with.

14 But it was mainly because they had great

15 labor pools, and so we had six languages that were

16 spoken in our Amsterdeen office. Plus the Dutch

17 are very good business people. Their economy is

18 set up for business. (INAUDIBLE) we had a sister

19 company that had an office there which they

20 (INAUDIBLE) and it just became a logical choice.

21 MIKE KANE: And then you went to Paris

22 and Bristol?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we opened some small

24 offices around last year. We bought this small

25 company, it was in Bristol I think a year, two


 1 years later. We got a set of new (INAUDIBLE).

 2 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE) speculation today,

 3 and people say that they've seen you in the Red

 4 Light District in Amsterdam?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I was in the Red Light

 6 District once with a group of people, and perhaps

 7 even with Patsy, as a tourist. If anything would

 8 make you celibate, it would be going to the Red

 9 Light District in Amsterdam. It's a nasty place.

10 But we were there as tourists. We were probably

11 there for 30 minutes along with all the other

12 American tourists that were there. That's the only

13 time I was in there, yeah.

14 MIKE KANE: Do you have any questions?

15 LOU SMIT: No. You have covered a certain

16 range of topics there. I was just going to say

17 that I know you talked about going down as your

18 normal practice to make coffee in the morning.

19 Would you, like, make coffee or is that --

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, usually I would. Whoever

21 got down there first, it's usually me.

22 LOU SMIT: Okay. Another thing, you said

23 you used to walk through the mall, you used to go

24 to various restaurants and things like that. Are

25 you acquainted with the "Bulk and Army" store?



 2 LOU SMIT: Do you ever go in there?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I have been there once that

 4 I can remember. Maybe twice. I went in there, I

 5 think it was probably in the winter of '95 because

 6 we were getting ready for a (IANUDIBLE) and we

 7 were doing that (INAUDIBLE) during that summer of

 8 '95. I was looking for some camping stuff. We

 9 needed some silverware to take. It wasn't too big,

10 to take on a boat trip. It was a long distance

11 race.

12 But I don't remember if I bought anything

13 there or not. I might have gone in there with

14 Burke or John Andrew, just walking by. But that

15 was it.

16 LOU SMIT: Have you purchased any cord or

17 duct tape or anything like that?


19 MIKE KANE: I want to talk about you and

20 Patsy for a little bit. (INAUDIBLE) many of those.

21 There have been people that said that at the time

22 Patsy, that may have been preoccupied with work.

23 What's your (INAUDIBLE)?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that's probably fair.

25 Normally Patsy never criticized me on, since we've


 1 been married, just buying this Harley-Davidson

 2 motorcycle. She is --

 3 MIKE KANE: When did you buy it?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: This past winter. Patsy

 5 is very easy going. She never, to me, objected

 6 when I traveled. It was something I had to do. But

 7 it was just okay. See you when you get back. So,

 8 no doubt that I spent a lot of time I work. It was

 9 my life. But she certainly didn't (INAUDIBLE).

10 MIKE KANE: There is a (INAUDIBLE)?


12 MIKE KANE: What kind of a Harley is it?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: It's a Fat Boy.

14 MIKE KANE: Is it new?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, it's new. A friend of

16 mine got me interested in it. It kind of became a

17 winter project for me.


19 JOHN RAMSEY: Last time I think March or

20 April of this year.

21 MIKE KANE: Oh, '98?


23 MIKE KANE: So if she had a complaint

24 about the time that you were putting in at work,

25 she would tell you about it?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't recall her

 2 ever saying that to me.

 3 MIKE KANE: I think I read that her mom

 4 came out and lived with you. Who would you say

 5 gave you more heat? Your mother or (INAUDIBLE)?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well she and her mother are

 7 real close and I think we both had different

 8 roles. She took care of the kids. But I tend to

 9 focus more so I get a lot of reading and talk to

10 doctors and that kind of logistics side of her

11 treatment.

12 I traveled with her back and forth to (INAUDIBLE)

13 where she was treated frequently. Occasionally it

14 was hard for her mother to travel. So it was kind

15 of a team effort. But that's her mother. So, sure,

16 she got a lot of support and compassion from her.

17 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE), that would be her

18 impression, as far as your roles?


20 MIKE KANE: Were there any parenting duties

21 that you kind of assumed at that time that you

22 hadn't been involved in much before?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: There were I guess. (INAUD).

24 We had to make sure the kids were fed and dressed

25 for school and those kinds of things. I've kind of


 1 forgotten now. There were periods of time she was

 2 actually she was actually incapable of doing it.

 3 MIKE KANE: Did you bring in, what's her

 4 name? Susan?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Susan.

 6 MIKE KANE: When was she brought in?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: She was there a long time

 8 during that period. I think a year almost. I think

 9 she either quit her job or coincidentally didn't

10 have a job. I don't know what it was. But she was

11 available. And she was there, I would say

12 literally everyday all day, as I recall, most of

13 that time.

14 MIKE KANE: And was her primarily role to

15 take care of Patsy or to take care of the kids?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: It was the kids mostly. I

17 think (INAUDIBLE) and I took care of Patsy for the

18 most part.

19 MIKE KANE: And how did you hook with her?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Susan? I don't remember. Yeah,

21 I don't know. Patsy would know.

22 LOU SMIT: Did she have boyfriend or husband?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I don't think. She was

24 very overweight; a young girl, but very

25 overweight. Very nice person that came from a


 1 wonderful family. (INAUDIBLE) parents.

 2 MIKE KANE: I imagine going through that type

 3 of illness it's very taxing on everybody. How did

 4 Patsy handle it?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy was just unbelievable.

 6 She was going to beat it. I have never seen her as

 7 scared as she was. She thought she was going to

 8 beat it. There was an experimental treatment that

 9 she was on. Gill Gloster, who was a very close

10 friend, was a doctor.

11 MIKE KANE: Who was that?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Doctor Gill Gloster, he's a

13 plastic surgeon who works in Atlanta.

14 MIKE KANE: Gloster?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: His wife had died of cancer

16 years before and he was there immediately for us.

17 He said the mistake we made was we didn't go after

18 it with both guns drawn. (INAUDIBLE) so we kind of

19 treated it a little bit and that's not the way to

20 do it. He recommended this National Cancer

21 Institute program he was familiar with because his

22 mother-in-law or his friend's mother-in-law, I

23 guess it was, had just gone through it.

24 He got on the phone, got us connected up with that

25 program. But it was an experimental program. She


 1 was a guinea pig, basically. They were testing a

 2 new protocol that included some of the things that

 3 we, based on research, looked like it made sense

 4 and should be used, like Taxol, for example.

 5 Until we got her into that program, which wasn't

 6 automatic, because she was young and healthy and

 7 she didn't have any other illnesses. So they were

 8 just treating the cancer, that made her a good

 9 candidate, so she became enrolled in this program.

10 And it was a scary process. Very scary for her.

11 I distinctly remember you would go into, whatever

12 it was, this 30-storey building which looked

13 wonderful and the doctors and horrible bureaucracy

14 and try to figure out where we go, who do we see.

15 It took us three days to break the code and get in

16 the system. But she was absolutely determined from

17 that moment.

18 MIKE KANE: I do know. We all kind of

19 looked at our wives (INAUDIBLE). When and on what

20 circumstances was her cancer discovered?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well she had. For about six

22 months, a lot of shoulder pain. She had gone to

23 some local doctors here in Boulder, and she went

24 to her doctor. I mean it was very bad shoulder

25 pain.


 1 MIKE KANE: Who was her doctor?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't remember. She

 3 obviously would know that. And they did some

 4 studies and then back like in June, her stomach

 5 started to swell.

 6 MIKE KANE: Do you remember what year was

 7 this?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: This was '93, about that. I

 9 think '93; summer of '93. And she couldn't get her

10 skirts buckled and (INAUDIBLE). Which is kind of

11 what we thought it was; too many treats. She just

12 still had this horrible shoulder problem and she

13 was taking lots of Tylenol and stuff like that.

14 She was going to West Virginia and we were going

15 to go up to Charlevoix. And when we went to

16 Charlevoix, she went to the emergency room a

17 couple of times a couple of evenings and they

18 didn't know what was going on. They asked her if

19 she was pregnant; they didn't have a clue.

20 And we decided to go back to Boulder, and then we

21 said let's go to Atlanta and it was Fourth of

22 July. We went to Atlanta and she immediately went

23 to the emergency room in Atlanta and in 30 minutes

24 they knew what it was and had her checked into the

25 hospital and operated on the next morning.


 1 MIKE KANE: And what kind of operation was

 2 it?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: They just split her open and

 4 cleaned it all out, as much as they could. That's

 5 kind of the first step. And it was much worse that

 6 they thought. And they tell you, well, it might be

 7 inoperable, which (INAUDIBLE) you're hopeful

 8 that's what it is, which it wasn't. Then they knew

 9 that knew that it was much worse than had hoped.

10 So we tried to figure out what we could do. And

11 Gill Gloster was very helpful to us. He was at the

12 hospital with us. He made some calls to Anderson

13 Clinic in Houston, I think it was. I mean you

14 started looking, because you wanted the best

15 treatment. And what is it? And that's difficult to

16 figure out.

17 The oncologist that was there in Atlanta wanted to

18 treat her. (INAUDIBLE) and with Bill's help we got

19 her in the program. (INAUDIBLE) year, she'd go

20 there. And the treatment was basically heavy

21 dosages, much heavier dosages than you would

22 normally have given of three drugs.

23 And she'd go there for a day or two or three, and

24 then come back to Boulder. Usually then check in

25 Boulder Hospital for a week, because her immune


 1 system fell to zero. And that was just kind of the

 2 routine that we went through for 12 months.

 3 MIKE KANE: So once a month she would go

 4 to (INAUDIBLE)?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was once a month,

 6 yeah.

 7 MIKE KANE: And you'd be there for three

 8 days.

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: It was a couple overnight.

10 MIKE KANE: And was this treatment IV

11 administered?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: She had a port-o-cath that

13 was permanently installed.

14 MIKE KANE: And then she'd come back. Would

15 she normally fly there commercially?


17 MIKE KANE: Via BWIA I guess?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Usually, I guess either Duluth

19 or National from here. I don't know if she flew

20 BWIA or not. But all three of them were

21 equidistant.

22 MIKE KANE: This is Maryland, right?


24 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE). And you came to

25 do it once a month for 12 months?



 2 MIKE KANE: How many times did her mom go

 3 with her?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know really, three

 5 or four or five times, somewhere in that range. I

 6 went with her many more times.

 7 MIKE KANE: How many times did you go with

 8 her?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I did sort of in the

10 beginning every time. But there were times when

11 she would go by herself. One time I remember I

12 flew into Duluth and met her at the airport and

13 flew back. I wasn't with her when she was there,

14 but I escorted her home. It was a tough time for

15 her; very tough.

16 MIKE KANE: You said in the beginning you

17 went each time?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had to get into the

19 system and that wasn't easy. What finally made it

20 easier for me was I said it was just like the

21 Navy. It was not the doctors that run the place;

22 it's the clerks. And so we started making friends

23 with the clerks and then we got into the system.

24 And they knew which forms we needed to get in.

25 So it was a very imposing process. Then we'd go


 1 back and stay at a Holiday Inn and get ready for

 2 the next day.

 3 MIKE KANE: She wouldn't stay overnight

 4 in a hospital?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Not then. She was trying to

 6 get checked in.

 7 MIKE KANE: Oh, I see. Okay. And how long

 8 after her surgery did she get involved in this?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: In at least a month; I think

10 30 days; as soon as she recovered from the

11 surgery.

12 MIKE KANE: And I guess they started her

13 right away with her. So this protocol was just

14 something relatively new (INAUDIBLE) and it was

15 very, very aggressive?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Very aggressive, focus on

17 ovarian cancer, which she had. The way that his

18 protocol system works is the National Cancer

19 Institute does all the testing. Once they conclude

20 that it's better than what's out there, they'll

21 release it to these member hospitals that

22 administer cancer treatments.

23 So they administer protocols that are generally

24 under the experimental testing program. This

25 protocol was only available at the National Cancer


 1 Institute, because it wasn't backed by any

 2 experimental program.

 3 She goes back now every -- it's being spread out

 4 the longer she goes, but she'll go there forever

 5 (INAUDBILE) research.

 6 MIKE KANE: So we're talking about, since

 7 June of '93, his wife was diagnosed, till? When

 8 was the last treatment?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's a 12-month program,

10 as I recall. But she went in for surgery, but they

11 just (INAUDIBLE) work. And then --

12 MIKE KANE: Went back in.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: -- went back in. And then

14 they gave her one or two more treatments just for

15 good measure. And that was it.

16 MIKE KANE: And when was that concluded

17 around?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: It started right around '93,

19 it would have been in the late summer of '94.

20 MIKE KANE: And that whole time when she

21 was undergoing treatment, was it the same routine:

22 come back to Boulder and check into the Boulder

23 Hospital?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: No, she's come back and

25 (INAUDIBLE) to come and check the blood and white


 1 blood count went to zero. So she had no immune

 2 system. And when her temperature up - we had to

 3 take her temperature every half hour or something

 4 like that when her temperature went up to a

 5 certain level, and then come right back down and

 6 we needed instructions, we'd go to the hospital.

 7 MIKE KANE: So this wasn't every time?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: It was almost every time.


10 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Right. Almost every

11 time she had to go to Boulder Hospital. And she

12 might be there for a week before her immune system

13 got back to where it could fight off infection.

14 MIKE KANE: And during those times in

15 between those treatments, how was it? I mean,

16 physically, would she get out and about at all?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: A bit. Patsy is a one of

18 the most positive people I know. And she made the

19 best of it. She made the best of it with her

20 children, she made the best of it with me, and

21 yeah. For a week before she went back in, she

22 would feeling pretty good. And she would try

23 (INAUDIBLE) a little life. I mean she just made

24 the best of it. She would (INAUDIBLE).

25 MIKE KANE: Lost her hair, I guess, from


 1 the treatment?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, and around her body.

 3 But for that week or so when she was kind of back

 4 to being normal, life was just fairly normal.

 5 MIKE KANE: So in the late summer then of

 6 '94, her last treatment, was that part of the

 7 protocol, or did they stop the treatment because

 8 it seemed like --

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: No, the protocol was very

10 defined: 12 treatments; surgery; and three more

11 treatments. Because you had people who were on

12 that same program that didn't have the success

13 that she did.

14 The most difficult thing for her, I think was that

15 when they supposedly opened her up again with all

16 sorts of biopsies and waiting for the results. If

17 they found one cell, it didn't work. She was in

18 trouble.

19 MIKE KANE: So when that happened, she got

20 the good news?


22 MIKE KANE: And then a few more?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: A few more treatments for

24 good measure and that was part of the protocol;

25 part of the experiment.


 1 MIKE KANE: So probably by September of '94


 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I think so, yeah.

 4 MIKE KANE: And then from that point on,

 5 there would have been anxiety, I suppose, how did

 6 her health go?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: It was good. She got her hair

 8 back slowly. But it was fine. She really had no

 9 health problems.

10 MIKE KANE: And how often did she have to

11 go for follow-ups?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Well initially, it was every

13 month. They did a full CAT-SCAN. It was a full

14 check and then it became once every two months,

15 and then once every three months, and then once

16 every four months. I think it's every six or seven

17 months now.

18 MIKE KANE: And was that follow-up done

19 back at NCI?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

21 MIKE KANE: Did she have any kind of

22 follow-up here with a local doctor?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so, no. It

24 was all back there.

25 MIKE KANE: Prior to this time, did she


 1 go to the doctor often here?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: She'd go for her annual

 3 checks or whatever they do, women.

 4 MIKE KANE: How did all that change her?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy very much lived for

 6 the moment after that. She enjoyed everyday. She

 7 tried to maximize her time with the children.

 8 Things that she with them or gave to them.

 9 Sometimes I'd complain about something, something

10 at work, and she's say, "Well, it's better than

11 cancer." And I'd say, "Yeah, you're right."

12 She said it just changed her whole -- she was a

13 very positive person anyway. But I think she tried

14 to cram as much in everyday as she could.

15 MIKE KANE: During this whole time, it

16 sounds like it overlapped with the remodeling of

17 the house?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: It did. I don't remember that.

19 If it did overlap with when we bought this cottage

20 up in Michigan, like that summer. But I forget the

21 date when we bought that. That summer we had just

22 bought this place and in the winter we were going

23 to have some remodeling done.

24 MIKE KANE: This is out in Michigan?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. And we were meeting


 1 the architect, and Patsy just felt horrible. She

 2 had this swollen stomach, I remember that. so that

 3 whole year that overlapped with the cottage

 4 remodeling, because I had to do all that.


 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I was trying to remember. I

 7 may be off a year. It may have been a year back. I

 8 think we bought that place in the summer of '91 or

 9 '92. So that would put her cancer and diagnosis

10 in summer of '92.

11 MIKE KANE: Summer of '92, okay.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Perhaps. She would know exactly

13 the day and hour that that's right.

14 MIKE KANE: So what changed is she began to

15 more live for the day. Carpe diem. What about

16 physically?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I think she was much more

18 conscious of what she ate and tried to take some

19 natural vitamins. I mean, once this treatment is

20 over, they gave her some counseling on how she

21 should go on living, and I think part of it was to

22 not -- she couldn't take estrogen, for example,

23 which she none anymore. But they didn't want her

24 to. That was a no, no.

25 But she basically went through menopause, I guess


 1 because her body was unable to produce estrogen.

 2 MIKE KANE: So she had a hysterectomy?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. She just became more

 4 conscious of what she ate and tried to be healthy

 5 in terms of that. other than that, she just really

 6 got back to her normal life.

 7 MIKE KANE: How did it change your

 8 relationship?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I think we became more

10 close, not that we weren't anyway. I mean, you go

11 through a hardship with someone and you see them

12 more of a person inside than you had before.

13 MIKE KANE: Like how do you mean?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's just the bonding.

15 You bond in a way that you don't bond if you

16 haven't gone through hardship. That's the best way

17 I can tell you. If it affected our relationship at

18 all, it was constructive.

19 MIKE KANE: It made you more close in what

20 sense?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I think you just accept each

22 other more totally for who you are, and respect

23 each other more fully for who they really are.

24 MIKE KANE: Can you give me an example of

25 before and after?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I can't really. I mean

 2 love is an evolving thing. I think you grow more

 3 deeply in love as your relationship continues. And

 4 it changes from what was probably lust in the

 5 beginning to true spiritual love, and that just

 6 contributed to that development.

 7 MIKE KANE: Do you spend more time together?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I think we were very

 9 conscious of not letting external things rule our

10 lives and going out to dinner with people that we

11 didn't really want to do. Patsy has always

12 volunteered for everything. And I used to kid her

13 that she aught to put a sticker on the phone that

14 says "Just say no." And she was just more

15 conscious of her time. She wanted to spend all her

16 time with the kids.

17 So she did hardly any volunteer work after that

18 other than at the school and generally with the

19 kids. That part changed a lot.

20 MIKE KANE: How did it change you?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it was a very sobering

22 experience. It caused you to think about

23 (INAUDIBLE) in life. I think it made me less

24 apprehensive about the future. I always worried

25 about things: if we going to have enough money; is


 1 this going to happen. You just kind of back up and

 2 just enjoy today. So I think I became less of a

 3 worrier.

 4 MIKE KANE: I don't want to be indelicate,

 5 but how did it affect your sex life?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Of in terms of that year that

 7 wasn't an option. After, I think because we were

 8 more deeply in love because of this kind of

 9 experience together, it was probably more

10 meaningful.

11 MIKE KANE: Would you say it was normal?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, yeah, from that standpoint,

13 certainly.

14 MIKE KANE: And what does normal mean?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Once every week and a half

16 or so I supposed, you know that kind of frequency.

17 MIKE KANE: She didn't have any physical

18 impairment or anything like that?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: It was hard for her, it hurt,

20 frankly, to that part of the body. Because she got

21 cut open and sewn together and cut open and sewn

22 together again. I don't know that it was 100

23 percent pleasurable for her for a while.

24 MIKE KANE: And emotionally?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: No issue there at all.


 1 MIKE KANE: How did it affect her spiritually?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: It has affected her a great

 3 deal. She became much more spiritual. She believed

 4 that she was cured by God, as much as (INAUDIBLE),

 5 if not more than (INAUDIBLE).

 6 MIKE KANE: Was there a specific incident?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Father Rol came over

 8 once and we had a prearranged healing service,

 9 which is part of the Episcopal ritual, and I think

10 that was earlier on, and Patsy was very moved by

11 that. And she went in for the CAT-SCAN. They had

12 said they had to have the CAT-SCAN before they

13 treated her again to see where things were at.

14 And after that healing service, all the tumors

15 were gone in the CAT-SCAN.

16 MIKE KANE: And that was early on?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. And she believed in

18 that as much as anything.

19 MIKE KANE: This was an Episcopal service?


21 MIKE KANE: I'm raised Roman Catholic, is

22 that kind of the equivalent of the Sacrament for

23 The Sick?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Of course we invited friends

25 and we all prayed and there was an oil; there was


 1 prayer with people's love around her.

 2 MIKE KANE: She had friends that participated

 3 in this?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

 5 MIKE KANE: Let's just back up a little

 6 bit. You said that you had looked at other places

 7 for treatment, in Houston or whatever?

 8 JHR? Well, I was trying to figure what the

 9 best answer was.

10 MIKE KANE: What was your role in finding --

11 (INAUDIBLE) about the cure?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I got all the document and

13 gotten all sorts of reports on Taxol and looking

14 into it. And I became a mini-expert on ovarian

15 cancer.

16 MIKE KANE: What were your sources of

17 information for that?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I got a lot from

19 Bill. I think there were some places I could call

20 to get information. I've forgotten now. The

21 Internet wasn't around. But that kind of

22 information. A lot or research report, news

23 articles, whatever I could get my hands on.

24 I talked to people. It's very confusing if you

25 really don't know where to go. My mother died of


 1 cancer and she was treated at the local hospital

 2 in Lansing, Michigan. In retrospect, was that the

 3 best answer? I don't know. But I didn't want to

 4 give up.

 5 The way I looked at Patsy's illness is: okay, we

 6 can do something about this. Beth, I couldn't do

 7 anything. I lost something I loved very much.

 8 There was nothing I could do. Patsy I could do

 9 something. And that's what I tried to do.

10 In the process of making some of these calls, Bill

11 got into this National Cancer Institute program

12 and that (INAUDIBLE) seemed like the right cancer

13 (INAUDIBLE). That really became the focus.

14 MIKE KANE: Did she pretty much leave that

15 aspect of it to you doing the research, or how

16 much did she take part in that?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: She obviously wanted to know

18 what was going on, and Gill was very good about

19 explaining to us what was going on. The doctor

20 would say this, here's what he meant in plain

21 English. Yeah, she wasn't involved so much in the

22 research, as I recall, but she was certainly

23 involved in the decision.

24 MIKE KANE: Is it Gill, is it Glou --

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Gloster.


 1 MIKE KANE: And he's a friend, a business

 2 associate?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Personal, long time personal

 4 friend.

 5 MIKE KANE: Had she had any ancillary effects

 6 of that?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: She lost a lot of feeling in

 8 her legs, her feet. All the nerves were killed.

 9 Chemotherapy is killing the body, as you well

10 know. And it kills nerve endings. And she still, I

11 don't think, has a lot of feeling in her feet.

12 It's slowly coming back. That's probably the main

13 thing. She still kind of has pain.

14 MIKE KANE: Any other limitations on her

15 now?


17 MIKE KANE: No lasting effects outside of

18 the neurological?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Perhaps. On her body, she has

20 a big scar up and down her chest. I mean you

21 couldn't pay her enough to put a bikini on. But

22 other than that, no.

23 MIKE KANE: Any other organs that's affecting

24 her?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I don't think so.


 1 MIKE KANE: She goes for regular physicals

 2 now?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: She goes back to (INAUDIBLE)

 4 for a complete CAT-SCAN, physical, blood work.

 5 MIKE KANE: Is there any medication she can't

 6 take because of her kidneys or her liver?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I think her liver. She has to

 8 be careful of her liver because that was damaged

 9 in that process. The only thing I know is the

10 estrogen and the liver.

11 MIKE KANE: What did she do to substitute

12 for this?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Nothing. No.

14 MIKE KANE: Since then, is she on any

15 medications for its aftereffects?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: For cancer?

17 MIKE KANE: Yeah. Or since her cancer? Do

18 you know if she has to take medications or

19 anything like that?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well she's on Prozac now, and

21 that's because of JonBenet, but no, I don't think

22 so.

23 MIKE KANE: Was she ever on any medication

24 at all?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so.


 1 MIKE KANE: Other than Prozac?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, during this last period?

 3 Well, yeah. She had taken Paxil for a while. They

 4 switched her to Prozac, which is similar.

 5 MIKE KANE: I think you said you were taking

 6 Paxil --


 8 MIKE KANE: -- when you were, and you switched


10 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I don't know, Patsy just

11 said she felt better on it, and so I gave it a

12 shot.

13 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)? The stuff is

14 expensive?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Maybe a little, I don't know.

16 It seems to help, and it's the kind of drug that

17 you can't just quit taking one day. You have to

18 taper off of it. So it's just that if you're

19 taking it and try to get off of it and see how you

20 feels.

21 MIKE KANE: Any other medications along

22 that line that she's taking?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't think --

24 MIKE KANE: Not now?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, earlier on, we also


 1 took, it was like, I could never have been a

 2 doctor.

 3 MIKE KANE: Xanax?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Klonopin.

 5 MIKE KANE: Klonopin?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Klonopin. And that was kind

 7 of on an as needed basis for a while. It was kind

 8 of a quick, picker upper, I guess.

 9 MIKE KANE: Prior to this, had she ever

10 been on any medication, I mean, would you know

11 that?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, yeah. She was very

13 healthy?

14 MIKE KANE: Has she lost consciousness or

15 anything?


17 MIKE KANE: I think you said yesterday

18 that all those medications (INAUDIBLE) Melinda,

19 your daughter, is a nurse. You said that at one

20 point she came in and she cleaned out that kind of

21 old stuff. When was that?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it might have been when

23 she graduated or close to it, which would have

24 been '95, '96.



 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean you go to the doctor

 2 and you get some antibiotics and you don't take

 3 the whole bottle because you start feeling better

 4 and you quit taking them. We had (INAUDIBLE) left

 5 around like that.



 8 MIKE KANE: Can you describe, if you could,

 9 your wife's range of moods?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: She's the most positive person

11 I know. She never was down. She, of course, was

12 sad when we lost Beth. It was very hard on her;

13 they were close. She's a very, very positive

14 person.

15 MIKE KANE: And what year was that when you

16 lost her?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: That was 1991. It was '91. It

18 was January 8th, 1991.

19 MIKE KANE: When was she the happiest?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: When she was with her family,

21 I guess.

22 MIKE KANE: What about today?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, she lives for her children,

24 for Burke, quite frankly. And she loves to be with

25 him. We all enjoy being at the lake. There's been


 1 a lot of happy memories there. It's peaceful and

 2 we've got lots of good friends that take care of

 3 us and care for us. And she's happy up there.

 4 She has a very good friend in Atlanta now, that's

 5 a new friend. They have a lot in common together;

 6 they go out for coffee in the mornings. She enjoys

 7 that friendship a lot.

 8 MIKE KANE: So with friends?


10 MIKE KANE: What's a downside? What's one

11 of the things that make her --

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Lot's of down things these

13 days.

14 MIKE KANE: Yeah. But prior to her cancer?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. She didn't get down much,

16 I suppose. I can't honestly tell you when I ever

17 remember her being down. She's just not that kind

18 of person.

19 MIKE KANE: Did you guys ever get in a fight

20 or disagreements?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Not --

22 MIKE KANE: Differences of opinions?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Not really, no. The only time

24 I got angry was, this was years ago, she had gone

25 to New York with her mother and girlfriend and her


 1 mother. They'd gone to shows and they had a great

 2 time. And she was on her way home and I got a

 3 phone call from this Raul, wanted to know if Patsy

 4 got home all right.

 5 And so when she came in, I said, "Who is Raul?" So

 6 there was this long story about how they had come

 7 out of the show and one of the mothers said,

 8 "Okay, here's a cab, get in." And they jump in and

 9 there's this nice cab, it was a Rolls Royce, and

10 there was this guy (INAUDIBLE) in the back of my

11 car and it was Raul.

12 It was a perfectly innocent story, but I was

13 suspicious, I guess. And that's the only time I

14 ever really got angry, I guess, with her.

15 MIKE KANE: And how did you resolve it?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I kicked the kitchen

17 door, and that was it.

18 MIKE KANE: When she got home, did you have

19 this discussion about that?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, yeah. I had to know who

21 Raul was.

22 MIKE KANE: Did you believe her?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, she

24 was with her mother, for heaven sakes.

25 MIKE KANE: Couldn't her mother have given


 1 her an alibi?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well she supported her telling me.

 3 MIKE KANE: How did the weather affect

 4 her? Going from the south to the -- the one thing

 5 I remember when I left to Boulder, is that I

 6 didn't have to look forward to snow in May.

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, she liked the south.

 8 She liked the weather in the south. She hated cold

 9 weather. She didn't like to ski. But she'd go, but

10 there was no ifs, ands or doubts about how she

11 felt about the snow and cold weather.

12 So if given a choice, ten times out of ten she'd

13 choose the beach rather than go skiing. But the

14 thing with Colorado winter is it's actually quite

15 mild and lots of sunshine and (INAUDIBLE).

16 When we first came out to Colorado, we were like,

17 well we're going to do this for two years and then

18 (INAUDIBLE) and we're going to move back home to

19 Atlanta. And then the longer we were here we were

20 thinking, hmm, I don't want to go back Atlanta

21 (INAUDIBLE). And that was not really in our

22 thinking when we were worrying about middle school

23 and high school. I mean there are some great

24 schools in Atlanta.

25 So we hadn't gotten to that stage where we had to


 1 worry about it. So she liked Colorado a lot.

 2 MIKE KANE: She was as happy here as she

 3 was --

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: She missed some of the amenities

 5 of Atlanta, you know, the big shopping centers and

 6 the country club. And I think it was to the point

 7 where she couldn't find where to buy lipstick in

 8 Boulder because she used makeup and stuff like

 9 that. But she liked it.

10 But there's things about Atlanta I miss too.

11 MIKE KANE: Were there any pet peeves that

12 she had about to you? You mentioned several times

13 that you watch the weather channel. That sounds to

14 me like watching paint dry. What did she think of

15 it?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: She didn't care. I watched it

17 because we flew and I wanted to see what was going

18 on with the weather systems and I couldn't do that

19 unless I watched it for seven days. I didn't watch

20 24 hours a day, but I did watch it for 20 minutes

21 to kind of get a feel for what was going on.

22 MIKE KANE: If you were to cite one pet

23 peeve, and everybody has them, what would it be?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Channel surfacing probably

25 with the TV. If I can think of one thing she used


 1 to kid me about. If I had the controller in my

 2 hand, that's what I do. Never stop moving the

 3 channel to watch it. I can watch two or three

 4 channels at once.

 5 MIKE KANE: And then on the flip side,

 6 what would your pet peeve be?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: The only thing I've ever

 8 kidded about was, she takes huge bites of salad.

 9 When she eats salad.

10 MIKE KANE: And that's as bad as it got?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: That was really about as bad

12 as it got. And she talked about it and joked

13 about it. (INAUDIBILE).

14 MIKE KANE: Did she have a local physician

15 here in Boulder County?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, yeah. It was a gynecologist.

17 In fact, she was quite upset with her that,

18 apparently one of her routine tests, part of her

19 cancer diagnosis came back abnormal and it stayed

20 on this woman's desk for several months. Had she

21 been diagnosed six months earlier, she could have

22 gotten a huge head start on it.

23 MIKE KANE: Did you ever talked about any

24 legal action?



 1 MIKE KANE: Did you have a regular family

 2 physician?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I used to go to Peter Ewing,

 4 Dr. Peter Ewing in Boulder, for pain and stuff. I

 5 go there, but Patsy (INAUDIBLE).

 6 MIKE KANE: Do you know a doctor named

 7 Farue or Darue?


 9 MIKE KANE: Any other (INAUDIBLE)?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Just Ewing. I'd go to Ewing.

11 MIKE KANE: Where did you get it filled?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Usually in Jone's Drug or

13 (INAUDIBLE) or there's a Rexall or something down

14 on Pearl Street on 16th or something like that.

15 LOU SMIT: We're getting close to that time

16 of the day and I just have a quick question. I'm

17 kind of the nuts and bolts kind a guy. What it is

18 that you had mentioned before that you and Patsy

19 got together occasionally. Did Patsy use John

20 Andrew's room?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: She used it for folding laundry

22 and that kind of stuff.

23 LOU SMIT: Did you ever perhaps have a light

24 that's on in John Andrews room?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: This may be a dangerous answer,


 1 but I don't think so.

 2 LOU SMIT: okay. That's the only thing I got.

 3 And we should probably take a break. I think they

 4 probably have to change the tape.


 6 (END OF TAPE 2)





















 1 _______________________________________________







 8 _______________________________________________






14 PAGES 433 - 531





19 JUNE 24, 1998

















10 LOU SMIT: Just note that we are

11 back in session. It's 2:15, again on Wednesday,

12 the 24th of June.

13 MIKE KANE: 3:15.

14 LOU SMIT: I am sorry, 3:15. On

15 Wednesday the 24th.

16 MIKE KANE: Okay. Let me jump

17 around a little bit here. The train room, you

18 know what I mean when I say the train room, is

19 that what you guys called it? There was a train

20 set down there?

21 What was that? I know you said

22 that there was a lot of storage down there and

23 from looking at it on the diagram, it was --

24 actually looks like there was a little bit of a

25 divider in there so it was two different rooms.


 1 Where was, you said there were a lot of things

 2 stored. Where were they stored?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had, this

 4 used to be an elevator shaft and that was like

 5 the electronics for the elevator, so that's --

 6 we were kind of' stuck with that when we bought

 7 the house, so we had stuff stored in those

 8 closets.

 9 There was stuff, I think we had

10 some shelving installed, here, here, stuff

11 stacked on shelving. There was a little

12 bookcase here. What's that is. Usually had

13 junk in it.

14 MIKE KANE: Did the kids play

15 there?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: They played, Burke at

17 course played with the train off and on.

18 Sometimes the would play back here. Not a lot,

19 but once in awhile.

20 MIKE KANE: Was it primarily used

21 for storage and--


23 MIKE KANE: And did they play with

24 the trains at all?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, Burke did a


 1 lot.

 2 MIKE KANE: There was, I don't

 3 believe we have a picture of it, but there was a

 4 poster hanging up. Do you remember if there was

 5 a poster?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay. Some movie

 7 posters, right?

 8 MIKE KANE: Yeah.

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Hung up. Those were

10 from our old house, the space where we had the

11 theater, we had those hanging on the walls.

12 MIKE KANE: Okay. Do you know,

13 have you ever been a hunter, anything like that?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I have hunted. I

15 have hunted for quail (NOTE: Video off). I

16 went deer hunting once with my father-in-law.

17 Then quail hunting maybe three or four times.

18 Five times, maybe.

19 (NOTE: Video resumed.)

20 MIKE KANE: Here or Georgia?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Quail hunting in

22 south Georgia. Maybe 3 times. Quail hunting in

23 north Michigan once, deer hunting in West

24 Virginia once.

25 MIKE KANE: Do you own a shotgun?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I have a shotgun that

 2 my father-in-law gave me as a gift. It's like a

 3 collectors' item. It's never been fired. It's

 4 up in Michigan.

 5 MIKE KANE: Do you have any other

 6 rifles?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: We have pistols now

 8 as a result of this; didn't before.

 9 MIKE KANE: Do you have any long

10 guns, rifle, shotguns?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Just the one 12

12 gauge.

13 MIKE KANE: And that's up in

14 Michigan?


16 MIKE KANE: So didn't have any in

17 the house at this time?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think. The

19 shotgun was in here, for a while. But it's been

20 up in Michigan for several years.

21 MIKE KANE: Okay. And have you got

22 hand guns?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: We have just in the

24 past year.

25 MIKE KANE: And is that four or one


 1 or what?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: We have three I

 3 think. Three, yeah. One in Charlevoix, two in

 4 Atlanta.

 5 MIKE KANE: And where are they?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: 38 caliber specials I

 7 guess, one pearl handle 38.


 9 MIKE KANE: And did you, I don't

10 know what the law is in Georgia, did you guys go

11 through training or anything?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: You don't. You got

13 the little printout what the law was, and you

14 generally keep them in little box one of these

15 locked safes. Like that.

16 MIKE KANE: Have you taken any

17 training?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I did in the

19 military, but I haven't been. Just going to the

20 range a couple of times.

21 MIKE KANE: Did Patsy?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: She never showed up.

23 MIKE KANE: On the -- I want to

24 talk about Patsy's birthday, there was a big

25 party down at the Browns, that's what I


 1 understand?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

 3 MIKE KANE: And that was in

 4 November?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, it was late

 6 November, early December.

 7 MIKE KANE: Who organized that?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Priscilla White.

 9 I funded it, she planned it basically.

10 MIKE KANE: Did you take any role

11 in planning at all other than writing the check?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Not much, other

13 than writing the check. Actually my idea was a

14 lot less elaborate than Priscilla's. I wanted

15 to go up to Boulderado and -- (INAUDIBLE). So I

16 actually my idea which got shot down.

17 MIKE KANE: What besides

18 Boulderado?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I think that was the

20 main one. My idea was less than her, the scale

21 of the 800 -- the concept. Mine was less than

22 hers. But she (INAUDIBLE) with it.

23 MIKE KANE: I mean, you say you got

24 shot down. Obviously, you must have agreed at

25 some point that--


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Priscilla is a

 2 pretty forceful person. I mean just she was,

 3 no, I can't do Boulderado. You know, it's got

 4 to be -- out in Denver.

 5 MIKE KANE: And how many people

 6 were there?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: There was gosh,

 8 50 maybe.

 9 MIKE KANE: And what were the

10 arrangements I mean how did you all--

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well they, she -- we

12 hired two Greyhound buses, as I recall, and

13 everybody met at a parking lot, where the bus

14 was and then we all got in the bus and both the

15 buses came over and pulled up in front of our

16 house and we got Patsy, I had arranged for Patsy

17 to go out for dinner just her and I, as I think

18 it was a belated anniversary dinner is how we

19 billed it so she was dressed to go out.

20 MIKE KANE: So it was a surprise?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, I believe

22 it, yes, it was a surprise, the reason I believe

23 it was a surprise to her was that she was, that

24 she said herself this old wool dress was ready

25 to go up to a restaurant in the mountains, she


 1 said she would have in no way worn that dress,

 2 if she knew what was up. So yeah, I believe it

 3 was a surprise.

 4 MIKE KANE: How did she react?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, she was, I

 6 knew now, she was just excited. The kids came

 7 on the bus.

 8 MIKE KANE: The kids stayed at home

 9 for the party?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, yeah.

11 MIKE KANE: Have you ever forgotten

12 her birthday?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, yeah, I am

14 sure I have. Her birthday is the 29th of

15 December, which is, you know, too close to

16 Christmas, so I would have forgotten, I had not

17 gotten her presents.

18 MIKE KANE: How did she feel about

19 it Mine is December 20. How did she feel about

20 it?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: She always, she

22 thought it was a rotten time to have a birthday

23 because it got overlooked. But.

24 MIKE KANE: Did you ever give her a

25 combination Christmas slash birthday present?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably, but I

 2 can't remember specifically. But that's an easy

 3 way to do it.

 4 MIKE KANE: And how did she react

 5 to that?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, she would

 7 joke about being shortchanged, you know.

 8 Couldn't do that, had to do the birthday

 9 present, be fair. That was always in a joking

10 way.

11 MIKE KANE: Never anything serious

12 though?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, no.

14 MIKE KANE: All right. Do you ever

15 remember her being angry with anybody outside of

16 the family.

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Not really.

18 Patsy is not that kind of person. She frankly

19 brought home a lot of stray dogs. She didn't

20 meet a stranger she didn't like.

21 MIKE KANE: How did you feel about

22 that?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, she was much

24 more outgoing than I am. So that was just her

25 personality.


 1 MIKE KANE: Did you ever, did it

 2 ever annoy you, you know, show up at home and

 3 have some body you never saw before--

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I mean I

 5 thought it was nice, you know, we -- that was

 6 just her personality. She had a lot of friends.

 7 MIKE KANE: Okay. Was there ever

 8 an occasion when the kids' affection for you

 9 might have caused friction, maybe?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, no. Not at

11 all.

12 MIKE KANE: I want to back into

13 what happened that day. I think it was John

14 Andrew when he was interviewed he said that --

15 he was talking about the beauty pageants and the

16 possibility of this being a work of a, you know,

17 a jealous parent or whatever. And of course

18 there have been instances where I think there

19 was one that was really well publicized about a

20 cheerleading, problem of cheerleader mom or

21 something like that. What do you think about

22 that?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it's

24 plausible. Neither Patsy nor JonBenet or I took

25 those very seriously. It was just a fun thing


 1 for her generally to do. She looked at it as

 2 it's a way to build her confidence, and

 3 presence, you know, in front of people and those

 4 kind of things. But it was, it was just fun.

 5 There wasn't any -- whether she won or lost

 6 wasn't really a big deal. It was just fun being

 7 there. There were parents that were there that

 8 were just intent on winning.

 9 MIKE KANE: So what do you think

10 about that in terms of a theory of who--

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I mean I

12 thought it was very odd and very unhealthy that

13 they felt that way. That to us wasn't why we

14 were doing that, you know. But in terms of who,

15 you know, we hardly knew those people. Usually

16 it was a very small group. The girls and their

17 parents, grandparents. Some siblings maybe,

18 that was about it.

19 MIKE KANE: Were you ever aware

20 that there were people that really took this

21 pageant stuff seriously, can you give me some

22 examples?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, just when they

24 would announce the winners. Everybody won

25 something, nobody went home without a big trophy


 1 and there were always ones that were favorite

 2 trophies, and these parents were just like their

 3 team just won the Superbowl. I mean they just

 4 within by one point, and it was just really

 5 tense emotion that they had won. I always

 6 thought that was not very healthy.

 7 MIKE KANE: Did you witness any of

 8 that the times you were there?


10 MIKE KANE: Yeah? Okay. What

11 happened, what kind of atmosphere, what kind of

12 atmosphere would that create?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: It was really

14 nothing other than just, you know, they would

15 say yes, and they would hug each other and you

16 know. That was about it.

17 MIKE KANE: Did you ever in looking

18 back on it, do you think that any -- anybody was

19 so wrapped up in this that I think you said it's

20 plausible. Is it possible?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so.

22 Because, well, I don't know. I mean I just

23 don't think that way, but I mean there were

24 girls that had been to 40, 50 pageants, and just

25 every weekend. I mean it was just, that was --


 1 JonBenet went once in awhile. Just kind of when

 2 they felt like it and they had time.

 3 So she wasn't -- and she didn't win

 4 that often. She would win the talent thing

 5 usually, she was very good, but she very rarely

 6 won -- she was young, I mean, know, relative to

 7 some of the girls that were there we just didn't

 8 take it that serious, and just kind of a fun

 9 thing for her to do.

10 And I think had they been one of

11 these every one you know competing, it might

12 have, you know, potentially could have been some

13 hostilities there, because there were some

14 pretty intense emotions going on on the part of

15 the parents.

16 MIKE KANE: Do you know how they

17 got started in that?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: According to

19 Patsy, she was, Patsy was Ms. West Virginia in

20 1977 and she was in the Miss America pageant and

21 periodically she would go back to West Virginia

22 to judge, it was a judge for the Ms. West

23 Virginia pageant and she took, they had a, it

24 must have been 20, 20th anniversary or something

25 like that, I don't know. Some anniversary, they


 1 invited her back to -- to be in the program I

 2 think and she took JonBenet's and her mom went,

 3 and she said JonBenet really enjoyed it, seeing

 4 mom up on stage, and she found, apparently

 5 JonBenet found a little advertisement in the

 6 paper for one of these little pageants, local

 7 pageants.

 8 MIKE KANE: Later she found it?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: I believe so,

10 JonBenet did. And asked, you know, how -- it

11 was something she wished she could do, or how do

12 we do this. I think that's how that got

13 started.

14 MIKE KANE: Was that a local

15 Boulder paper?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know, it

17 might have been Denver. It had to be a local

18 paper, but I am not sure which it was.

19 MIKE KANE: You say you think

20 that's it happened, why to you can --

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Because I heard Patsy

22 tell that story to somebody, recently had asked.

23 MIKE KANE: Okay?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: And I remembered

25 them going to Ms. West Virginia pageant, but I


 1 didn't really remember the sequence of how it

 2 got started.

 3 MIKE KANE: Do you know when this

 4 was?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: It might have been

 6 1995, that they went back to West Virginia,

 7 perhaps.

 8 MIKE KANE: And do you know when

 9 that first pageant that she was in was?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I really --

11 no, I don't remember. You know, probably within

12 six months of that time period, I suppose.

13 MIKE KANE: Did you ever have any

14 discussions with Patsy about before she got

15 involved in these pageants, with just what are

16 they, what do they do, what's the upside,

17 downside?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: No, not really.

19 I mean I had a great deal of respect for the

20 Miss America Pageant, I went to one of those

21 once with her. I was just astounded at the

22 talent level of the girls over there, not just

23 the ten we see on television, but everyone is

24 incredibly talented. They weren't particularly

25 attractive, you know, they were there because


 1 they had a very special talent. And they were

 2 all extremely talented.

 3 I sat through one of the

 4 preliminary things where they all do their

 5 talent, and I was just astounded. So I was very

 6 impressed with that program, and the caliber and

 7 the person that got to that level, extremely

 8 talented.

 9 MIKE KANE: Did you ever see

10 Patsy's performance?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so.

12 MIKE KANE: Did you see that

13 outside of the--


15 MIKE KANE: The, there was, and I

16 don't know where I saw this reference to, but

17 there was some -- something that I saw that

18 Patsy had a concern about one of the pageants,

19 the Gingerbread Pageant, something about she

20 didn't like the way it was run. Do you have any

21 information about that?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: No, not really.

23 MIKE KANE: Did you ever discuss

24 with her problems with any of these pageants?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I mean I knew


 1 she was doing it because, you know, she was

 2 trying to live for the moment, and she was

 3 trying to be as much with her children as she

 4 could. All she could, we talked about that, but

 5 I could see that was what was going on. And a

 6 couple of times I remember saying geez you guys

 7 aren't doing another pageant, are you, and I

 8 think once they decided not to do it, but that's

 9 about the extent of it.

10 MIKE KANE: Why did they decide not

11 to do it?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I think they had --

13 I think -- I don't remember exactly, but I think

14 they just decided it was too much to be, you

15 know, I think it was out of town or something,

16 and they wanted to stay home with the rest of

17 us.

18 MIKE KANE: Did they did go out of

19 town for some of these, from what I understand?


21 MIKE KANE: Down in Georgia there

22 was--

23 JOHN RAMSEY: There was one in

24 Rome, I think, Georgia. There were a couple of

25 them in Georgia, one in Atlanta, one in Rome,


 1 maybe two.

 2 MIKE KANE: And the trips down

 3 there were specifically for that, obviously

 4 family--

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, one I think

 6 was, they were down there and they noticed this

 7 was one going on, they just went to it. I think

 8 that was the one in Rome. It was just kind of

 9 an after-thought.

10 MIKE KANE: And how do you remember

11 that, that that was -- I mean did you talk, did

12 Patsy tell you while they were down there --


14 JOHN RAMSEY: It was kind of what

15 I remember, yeah. But they just kind of

16 noticed, they were getting ready to go to a

17 pageant and so they had this one in Rome, they

18 said great.

19 MIKE KANE: This was why they were

20 down there or here?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: No, we were there

22 for a family visit or something, I forget what

23 it was. It was around Thanksgiving time.

24 MIKE KANE: Did she have one of her

25 pageant dresses with her?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: No, probably not.

 2 They always threw stuff together at the last

 3 minute. They had stuff around sometimes. Might

 4 have had something sent up, I don't know.

 5 MIKE KANE: Do you know how many

 6 that she was in?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I heard nine,

 8 somebody said nine. I heard that on the news.

 9 I don't know if that's true or not.

10 MIKE KANE: What did you think as a

11 father seeing your six-year old in makeup?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I can't say that

13 I liked it. I think -- she had fun with it. It

14 wasn't done -- every little girl, certainly all

15 my little girls liked to put on makeup and dress

16 up, and play dress-up and so this was just kind

17 of an another level of playing dress-up. But I

18 always kind of did a check on was -- you know,

19 did she really want to do that today.

20 And I never said you know, hope you

21 win or just -- just have fun you know, hope you

22 have fun. Sing good, you know, doesn't matter

23 if you're the prettiest. You're the talent,

24 that's really what counts. It became kind of a

25 thing between us, she always said I am there for


 1 my talent, dad.

 2 But no, I think she drug Patsy to a

 3 couple of them that Patsy didn't even want to go

 4 to.

 5 MIKE KANE: Which one was that?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. I

 7 just, I remember that she was more insistent on

 8 going than Patsy.

 9 MIKE KANE: Were those instate or

10 out of state?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I think they

12 were instate, probably. I don't recall.

13 MIKE KANE: The -- did you -- know

14 that there was some videos taken, I mean at your

15 house had some videos that sent over her

16 pageants or--

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, these pageants

18 always took a video of the girls, which in

19 retrospect was a huge mistake, to allow that.

20 MIKE KANE: In what regard?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, because it

22 made national news, you know, they had no ethics

23 in terms of, I mean this was a small little room

24 with parents and girls and they you know,

25 wasn't -- that's all it was. And yet these


 1 videos that were made which we shouldn't have

 2 allowed were released to the world. And so it

 3 looked like we were putting our daughter on

 4 display for the world and in fact, we weren't at

 5 all.

 6 MIKE KANE: Some of the criticism

 7 that you had gotten from media and press,

 8 public, is that some of these productions with

 9 the kids, some of their actions were

10 provocative. What did you feel about that?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: It's in the eyes of

12 a beholder. If you look at a little girl in a

13 dress and think something sexual, you got a

14 problem. That's how I look at it.

15 MIKE KANE: Did it ever concern you

16 that --

17 JOHN RAMSEY: No, because the

18 audience were parents, you know, it was moms and

19 dads, and grammas.

20 LOU SMIT: Usually how big of an

21 audience was it?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, there might be

23 50 people.

24 LOU SMIT: So it's not like

25 hundreds?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: No, no, not the ones

 2 I was at. Just kids running around, you know,

 3 siblings and babies and --

 4 LOU SMIT: Any room for perverts

 5 in there?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I could have gotten

 7 in there. I could have walked in. It wasn't

 8 hard to walk in and sit down and act like a

 9 relative, I suppose. I didn't see anybody that

10 didn't look like they were part of the group, in

11 terms of having a child or have children there,

12 it wasn't a stranger sitting over in the corner

13 in a raincoat or something like that, but it

14 would have been possible, certainly, to do that,

15 if you were so inclined.

16 MIKE KANE: Were you aware of Patsy

17 lightening JonBenet's hair? Make it lighter

18 than its natural color?


20 MIKE KANE: There was a -- I don't

21 think it was pag -- it was part of a pageant,

22 there was a, you know, come-as-a-famous-person

23 part of I think it was a local pageant, might

24 have been down in Lakewood, bow tie (phonetic)

25 or something like that, I am not sure. That I


 1 read about that she, JonBenet came as Marilyn

 2 Monroe, do you remember that?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't.

 4 MIKE KANE: I think you said

 5 earlier, when Lou was talking to you about it,

 6 that Patsy's mom and her sisters had been to

 7 some of these. Do you think they came out

 8 specifically for that?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, probably. In

10 some cases I suspect they did. I don't remember

11 specifically, but that wouldn't have been out of

12 the question.

13 MIKE KANE: I know that Pam had

14 been in the pageants. She followed Patsy, Polly

15 didn't. Why was that?


17 MIKE KANE: Yes, what's your

18 knowledge?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I think Polly didn't

20 have talent. Pam was a wonderful singer. She

21 has a beautiful voice. Polly played the flute

22 in a high school band. It's a talent

23 competition. And I don't know that she was

24 inclined, I don't know that she ever even tried.

25 MIKE KANE: Did you ever talk to


 1 her about that?


 3 MIKE KANE: You might want to --


 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know, that's

 6 a good question, but I don't know that there was

 7 one. I don't remember. They might have gotten

 8 tired of it too, for that matter. I don't

 9 remember.

10 MIKE KANE: On the 26th, that day,

11 some people who had seen, who were there or they

12 were at your house or at the Fernies afterwards,

13 have commented that -- that the two of you, you

14 and Patsy didn't spend a lot of time together

15 under this crisis atmosphere. What's your

16 reaction to that?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall we

18 didn't spend a lot of time together. We were

19 both totally devastated, crushed, ruined.

20 Mentally vegetables. I mean, you know, you

21 just, you don't really care to even be alive

22 after something like that happens. And --

23 MIKE KANE: Do you recall that you

24 were together a lot during that time?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, yeah, we were


 1 together. We were in the same house, we -- I

 2 mean, there were ton of people around us all the

 3 time. Patsy was sedated. I don't remember

 4 where she slept the first night. The first

 5 night I just sat in the living room until I

 6 could lay down on the floor, and you know, I

 7 just --

 8 MIKE KANE: You didn't sleep

 9 together the first night?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I slept on the

11 floor. I don't know that I even slept. Only

12 because I -- I didn't -- I mean, I mean, when

13 Beth died, I sat up all night, probably had 6

14 Scotches. I don't know that I slept a minute.

15 Basically I felt the same way that night. You

16 don't go back to a normal routine of putting on

17 your pajamas and brushing your teeth and

18 climbing into bed and kissing each other good

19 night. You have been crushed.

20 MIKE KANE: I just wondered why you

21 wouldn't gravitate to each other in that

22 circumstance. You have such a common interest

23 at that point.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know, I

25 mean, I don't recall that we didn't. And


 1 that's -- I wouldn't have made an observation of

 2 our behavior, put it that way. You know, she

 3 was, I know when we were -- before we found

 4 JonBenet, Patsy was kind of stayed in the

 5 solarium area, and I would go in and check on

 6 her periodically and just assure her that we

 7 were going to get JonBenet back, and but my

 8 focus was on getting her back, you know.

 9 For me to sit there and you know,

10 what are we going to do, it wasn't going to get

11 done.

12 MIKE KANE: What was going to get

13 done?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I tried to apply

15 every ounce of energy and mental power I had to

16 figure out what we had to do to get her back.

17 And --

18 MIKE KANE: You mean beyond coming

19 up with the ransom money and waiting for the

20 phone call?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean there was not

22 much you could do unfortunately, that was the

23 terrible part about it. But you sure

24 couldn't -- you couldn't loose control at that

25 point in my mind, because I thought we could --


 1 we could -- we had the opportunity to make this

 2 come out right.

 3 MIKE KANE: The -- probably have

 4 heard this, I am sure, that Janet McReynolds who

 5 had written a play?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: After the fact,

 7 yeah.

 8 MIKE KANE: And it was based on a

 9 book called "The Basement". What have you heard

10 about that?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, just that it

12 was -- that she had written this play, that it

13 was about a child being murdered or you know,

14 tortured, I don't know, a very awful play.

15 MIKE KANE: Awful in an artistic

16 sense or a dramatic sense?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Dramatic. That it

18 was very sick, and very similar to what happened

19 to JonBenet. There is -- beyond that, I didn't

20 really hear much, but it just was kind of

21 shocking to us that we had allowed somebody like

22 that to come into our home.

23 MIKE KANE: Did you -- when you say

24 somebody like that, what do you mean?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that's that


 1 perverted and sick and, you know, I don't think

 2 that way. I don't want to be around anybody

 3 that does.

 4 MIKE KANE: But as an artistic

 5 thing do you--

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't buy that,

 7 no.

 8 MIKE KANE: Did you think that

 9 Janet McReynolds had something going through her

10 head that made her write that, outside of just a

11 --

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know,

13 but I mean the fact that anybody could

14 apparently write something like that is kind of

15 nauseating.

16 MIKE KANE: You hadn't heard of

17 that before this?


19 MIKE KANE: Patsy knew about that

20 before this?


22 MIKE KANE: Have you read either

23 one, The Basement or Hey, Rube?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't know there

25 was a second one.


 1 MIKE KANE: No, I mean Hey, Rube is

 2 a play based on the book.

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: They did a play on

 4 that book?

 5 MIKE KANE: No Janet McReynolds

 6 wrote a play and the play was based on a book

 7 written by somebody else years before.

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I see. Okay,

 9 no, I didn't know that.

10 MIKE KANE: Okay. All right.

11 Yesterday, you said something about on the -- a

12 couple of things that on the 20th or on the 6th

13 of December she was in that little parade. What

14 is that parade? Is that a parade for kids or a

15 parade of kids?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: A parade of kids.

17 Kids are in the parade.

18 MIKE KANE: Okay.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: High school band

20 and it was full of kids.

21 MIKE KANE: You said her name was

22 on a car?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I think so, I am not

24 positive of that, but it's quite probable.

25 MIKE KANE: Why do you think it's


 1 probable?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Because Patsy

 3 tended to do that.

 4 MIKE KANE: Do what, do you know

 5 what --

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: JonBenet Ramsey,

 7 Miss Little Colorado or whatever.

 8 MIKE KANE: Okay, so it was in

 9 connection with being miss --

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

11 MIKE KANE: Did you have like a

12 sign or placard or something like that?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: She had an I think a

14 little magnetic or this a little sign that kind

15 of adhered to the side of the car.

16 MIKE KANE: Okay, she had that made

17 up?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: She was in a

19 couple of little parades in Charlevoix where

20 they, you know, little small town, brought your

21 own Corvettes and kids would be on the back and

22 JonBenet was in a couple of those.

23 MIKE KANE: You guys were out of

24 town that weekend. I think you said that Mike

25 Archuleta's that wife is the one that took --


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: She drove the

 2 car, she was there as United Way. I think

 3 Patsy's mom was there. She took care of the

 4 kids while we were away, so I don't know who

 5 picked up, how the logistics were handled but --

 6 MIKE KANE: Another thing that I

 7 wanted to a follow a little bit on, you said

 8 that looking back on it the article on Access

 9 Graphics was a mistake but at the time you had

10 some apprehension about it. What was your

11 apprehension?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: This was a gut

13 feeling that that wasn't a good idea.

14 MIKE KANE: In what sense?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't want that

16 notoriety or that visibility.

17 MIKE KANE: Which, which --

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that we were a

19 billion dollar company.

20 MIKE KANE: Why didn't you want

21 that as a company?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I -- I didn't want

23 that attention basically and I just had this gut

24 panic in my stomach that said to me don't do it.

25 MIKE KANE: What's wrong with


 1 attention when you're in a business?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: It doesn't -- if it

 3 doesn't buy anything, why do it. These aren't

 4 customers locally. We had maybe one or two

 5 customers locally. Publicity is useful when

 6 it's to your audience. I was -- I am not

 7 particularly boastful, I don't like that kind of

 8 person, I don't want to be that kind of person,

 9 and I felt it was being I guess probably

10 boastful.

11 MIKE KANE: Was it for you

12 personally you didn't like the attention or for

13 your family?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, I was starting

15 to think geez, you know, we need to -- because

16 we had -- we had had, you know, since Jeff

17 Meric and we had a couple of other employees who

18 were let go. Not that I even knew, but that

19 didn't go happily and I just was starting to

20 think about I better, you know, I need to start

21 thinking about visibility.

22 MIKE KANE: How do you square that

23 with Little Miss Colorado pageants?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: That was part of

25 what I guess was starting to think about. I


 1 mean in retrospect it was totally foolish, but

 2 it was, I mean these -- see, if you don't think

 3 like an evil person, you assume everybody else

 4 is kind of normal like you, and these little

 5 pageants were in a little room with the parents

 6 and these little parades in Charlevoix were you

 7 know, small town parades, everybody knew each

 8 other, and we just kind of a fun thing for kids

 9 to do. It was innocent.

10 We had falsely, I think, assumed

11 that Boulder was a small innocent town. We

12 used to go back to Atlanta and our friends would

13 talk about their security systems and you know

14 if you shoot the guy, be sure to get him in the

15 house, you know. And God, we don't talk about

16 this stuff in Boulder. It was just, you know,

17 being out of that environment and coming back to

18 it, it just was astounding to us. We thought we

19 were in safe little Boulder, nothing ever

20 happened in Boulder.

21 MIKE KANE: Prior to this what was

22 changing your mind about that?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Nothing in

24 particular. But I just was starting to -- we

25 were starting to be more visible. And every


 1 time we let somebody go, we would get sued, I

 2 mean it was just you were becoming a bigger

 3 target for whoever wanted to take a shot at you.

 4 MIKE KANE: Was there ever a time

 5 other than that billion dollar article that you

 6 recall being in the paper?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, there was an

 8 article a couple years before that that talked

 9 about Access Graphics rapidly growing, we were

10 always in, you know, the industry publications.

11 We would get circulated in Boulder, but Boulder

12 Camera did articles on us from time to time. I

13 think the Rocky Mountain News did one once on

14 the company.

15 MIKE KANE: And there was one that

16 I think I have seen that you were pictured on

17 the wall?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. That was

19 shortly after Beth died, I guess it would have

20 been 1992, '1 or somewhere in there. Because I

21 thought I looked like hell frankly in that

22 picture, and I probably felt like it.

23 MIKE KANE: That was a lot of

24 visibility?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. But we were


 1 -- at that point --

 2 MIKE KANE: Why did you agree to

 3 have your picture in the paper?


 5 MIKE KANE: Yes.

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Back then publicity

 7 was good publicity. We were trying to make a

 8 name for ourselves, and it was just a different

 9 mindset. One of the reasons you do that, one of

10 the reasons I decided that well, hey, we will do

11 it is it makes your employees proud, you know,

12 they want to be proud of the company. Helped us

13 attract potential new employees and so forth.

14 You know, there is a benefit to

15 that kind of exposure in the local community,

16 and even customers. Like I say, I just had this

17 gut twang that said that's not a good idea and I

18 kind of wonder whether there is something I

19 don't understand was trying to tell me

20 something.

21 MIKE KANE: Do you have any follow

22 up, Lou?

23 LOU SMIT: No. I don't believe

24 so.

25 I did have one follow-up question


 1 and that was in regards to the Brown Palace.

 2 There was mention in one of the reports about a

 3 comedian, some comedian that somebody had hired

 4 for that.

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Priscilla hired. It

 6 was a -- he dressed up as Miss America. With a

 7 beard, with a --

 8 LOU SMIT: Do you know if he was

 9 from Boulder here?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know where

11 he was from.

12 LOU SMIT: I was just wanting to

13 know if anybody knew his name?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know that we

15 did or would. I don't. I think Priscilla

16 arranged for it.

17 LOU SMIT: If you happen to hear

18 it, we can make a quick check on him.

19 MIKE KANE: I don't know if I have

20 asked this. Not in this context, but do you

21 think or have you thought in the last year and a

22 half that someone was trying to frame you for

23 this?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: No. The thought

25 crossed my mind, but I think -- no, I don't


 1 think that's the -- I didn't give him credit

 2 for being that clever.

 3 MIKE KANE: Why not?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Because I think

 5 they have left too many clues. They left a

 6 ransom note. They left this newspaper with, you

 7 know, this bizarre thing you showed me today.

 8 MIKE KANE: But some of these clues

 9 now the public has taken and made judgments.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I can't --

11 MIKE KANE: No, but I mean in the

12 context of someone trying to frame you?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it's too

14 much of a stretch. I mean what -- if I were

15 going to do that, I wouldn't have handwritten

16 the note. I would have typed it out or you

17 know, I mean, if they are really that clever to

18 have done something like this, to not only hurt

19 JonBenet, hurt us but to frame us as the

20 murderers, I think if you give them credit for

21 being that clever, they would have done some

22 other things that would have supported that kind

23 of theory more.

24 MIKE KANE: What kind of things

25 come to mind?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Like I think I

 2 wouldn't have handwritten the note. I would

 3 have done it on a word processor or on a --

 4 maybe I wouldn't have left a note at all.

 5 MIKE KANE: Do you feel like if

 6 there were no note, the finger would point more

 7 to you or less to you? When I say you I mean

 8 your family.

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I mean that

10 was Patsy's reaction, she said thank God they

11 left a note. I said what do you mean by that,

12 he said well, they left some evidence, so he was

13 going to follow it that way.

14 So yeah, I mean I think if somebody

15 was really trying to frame us, it could have

16 been a lot more obvious and a lot less -- a lot

17 more likely to do that. Seems to be I mean I

18 think it was just, I mean, for example what if

19 instead of Patsy's handwriting coming back

20 almost exclusive, what it if had come back

21 exclusive. We didn't write the note, Patsy

22 didn't write the note, boom, it's over, who

23 wrote the note?

24 But the fact that, okay, maybe

25 there is a few similarities in her writing,


 1 that's about it. She wouldn't be absolutely

 2 excluded, that becomes -- I mean if somebody is

 3 trying to frame you, that's just too -- that's

 4 too lucky.

 5 MIKE KANE: What's your

 6 understanding about the fact that there are

 7 similarities? I mean what's the --


 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Our experts who I

10 believe are national experts said look, we give

11 it a 4.5 on a scale of 5. If we had more

12 samples prior to the murder, we could maybe get

13 it to a five where there was absolutely no

14 possible way that she wrote this note. 4.5 is

15 as professional, as good as we can do it.

16 MIKE KANE: How did they rule you

17 out?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know.

19 MIKE KANE: Did they have a lot of

20 pre-December writings?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember

22 frankly. But we gave whatever we needed to,

23 both to the police and our people, and I think

24 mine was fairly quick.

25 MIKE KANE: Did you have any


 1 understanding about what's the probability that

 2 there would be any similarity? There obviously

 3 were none with you?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Of course we

 5 assumed there would be none, because we didn't

 6 write it so I was -- I mean we were -- in our

 7 minds there was no doubt what the outcome would

 8 be.

 9 MIKE KANE: Were you surprised when

10 there were similarities?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, the way it was

12 explained to us was that there are certain

13 things that we all learned when we learned how

14 to write, that are kind of common and that's the

15 kind of things that were there apparently in

16 Patsy's samples that they just couldn't

17 absolutely say totally exclude it. But they

18 were as close as they can be as professionals,

19 at least ours, to say that --

20 MIKE KANE: What do you think about

21 the -- there is a range you probably heard some

22 other may be about the 4 to 5 level?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: The only one I heard

24 was CBI was recently quoted as saying they were

25 closer to exclusion than they were inclusion and


 1 it was a three on a scale of ten, which to me is

 2 --

 3 MIKE KANE: Where did you hear

 4 that?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: It was in the Denver

 6 paper. Chuck Green, which of course always has

 7 been reliable and accurate information. So it

 8 may not be accurate as all, I don't know. But

 9 -- what we heard, I guess, officially was it was

10 inconclusive. Couldn't be excluded, couldn't be

11 included.



14 done, I have run numbers and letters, I have

15 tried to figure code. I have looked in the

16 bible extensively for that reference. Talked to

17 people who know a lot more about the bible than

18 I do. The only thing I have heard that makes

19 sense are that it's star-based technical

20 command, was a term on I think Star Trek, one of

21 those, Star Wars, Star Trek, I think, which kind

22 of fits the movie theme.

23 You know, this freak had a passion

24 for movies. Or Sanibel and, whatever her name

25 was, Claus, or the T could have possibly been a


 1 J, Sanibel or Janet Claus. But the T would have

 2 had to have really been a J, that's the only

 3 thing.

 4 Then there was a guy early on that

 5 was going to believe that had a tee shirt that

 6 was Santa Barbara Tennis Club and I checked, and

 7 there was a Santa Barbara Tennis Club and but

 8 other than that I don't have a clue what means.

 9 LOU SMIT: You said you looked at

10 a biblical theme. In what sense?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, just because we

12 had heard there were psalms circled, possible

13 118 being 118th psalm and there was some, I

14 think some interesting things there. So I tried

15 to just take it another step, does SBTC mean

16 anything in the bible. I couldn't.

17 MIKE KANE: Did you do some

18 research yourself in that regard?


20 MIKE KANE: What kinds of things

21 were you looking in the bible for?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Any time I pick

23 up the bible I look in the index. I read

24 passages, I read thinking does that stand for

25 anything. You know, looked in the dictionary.


 1 I looked it up on the Internet, there is a Web

 2 site called SBTC, it's a little bit bizarre, as

 3 far as I could tell.

 4 MIKE KANE: Was that the one that's

 5 the Small Business Technical Center that's on

 6 the Internet -- had you ever --

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I saw that, I think

 8 I saw that.

 9 MIKE KANE: It's like a small

10 business trade organization?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I --

12 MIKE KANE: Access was never

13 involved in at all?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: No. So we would

15 have -- that's been puzzling to me from day

16 one.

17 MIKE KANE: What other things have

18 you done yourself to investigate this? I mean

19 outside of hiring people to do it, besides --


21 JOHN RAMSEY: Tried to put my

22 brain to it, just to try to figure out what

23 these clues mean, this person's life force. I

24 have given every possible -- you think back,

25 who you had a conference with, going way back,


 1 and I tried to give those names to our people,

 2 and instructed them to share that with you. He

 3 have -- I was trying to -- unfortunately I had

 4 an affair 20 something years ago and I was

 5 trying to figure out where this person was and I

 6 looked in the phone book and I found the

 7 addresses of, there are several with her name

 8 and I wanted it to seem logical, she used to

 9 live in the area, went to an apartment complex

10 and sat there for a while, to see if I could see

11 her come and go.

12 MIKE KANE: When was that?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know,

14 six months ago, something like that. So you

15 know, it's -- you know, when Patsy and I have

16 talked about, you know, of course we have the

17 media hounding us to talk to them all the time

18 and I think we both kind of concluded that if

19 this thing ever dies down, we are going to

20 sister it up again. We want to keep the

21 pressure on. One thing we think we can do is

22 keep the pressure on the killer.

23 LOU SMIT: Could I interject

24 you're talking about Gloria Williams?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: (Nodding).


 1 LOU SMIT: Have you ever thought,

 2 you know you had claimed in that first letter

 3 you sent to me or in the letter that was sent to

 4 me, that she had kind of a fatal attraction type

 5 personality. How did you attribute that? I

 6 mean --

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, just -- we

 8 hired her as a secretary in a small office, and

 9 you know, I was vulnerable, but not -- not

10 crossing the line. We were at a Christmas party

11 that this office building had, she said gee, I

12 left something up in my office, do you have a

13 key? And so I went up, unlocked the door and as

14 soon as the door unlocked she turned around and

15 kissed me. And then I just kind of got sucked

16 in. But it was a, just a very strong physical

17 attraction.

18 LOU SMIT: How long did that last

19 for?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, two years,

21 maybe. It was one of the things I got into and

22 I couldn't get out. She was extremely

23 aggressive. Like you know, I tried to, you know

24 --

25 LOU SMIT: What do you mean


 1 aggressive?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I wouldn't answer

 3 the phone so she would call 27 times.

 4 LOU SMIT: At home?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: At home. Our

 6 marriage probably wasn't strong or that wouldn't

 7 have happened at all, but it certainly ended it.

 8 And it was probably the biggest regret I have in

 9 my life, but she was a very volatile person.

10 LOU SMIT: Why do you think she

11 hasn't surfaced? I mean your name has been all

12 over the place.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. And

14 that really surprises me. I am surprised she

15 hasn't come forward and said, that son of a

16 bitch, you know, I knew him when.

17 LOU SMIT: Was it a bad breakup

18 that you had?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, and I got rid

20 of her finally. You know I just couldn't, I

21 finally got her to stop pursuing me.

22 LOU SMIT: But did she make any

23 threats?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: No. No. Not --

25 that was 20 years ago, or longer than that


 1 maybe.

 2 LOU SMIT: And you have never

 3 heard from her since?


 5 LOU SMIT: Do you know if she had

 6 any children?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: She had a son, I

 8 think I read his name in the note but I forget

 9 it now. I think I was reading the note,

10 whatever the name was, Scott or Mark -- Mark

11 Williams, Mark Williams. It was probably 20

12 years ago, he was probably nine years old or so.

13 LOU SMIT: There has been another

14 gal in Tucson?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I have no clue who

16 that woman is. No clue.

17 LOU SMIT: I know you said in the

18 last statement that's bullshit?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Total. She

20 called, she called my office several times. We

21 tried with our investigators to get her to ask

22 for money. She never would do. When she would

23 call and say, the newspapers want me to talk,

24 what does John want me to do? My secretary

25 would come in and say who the world is this


 1 woman, I didn't know her. I had no clue. I

 2 haven't been in Tucson for 20 years, so I turned

 3 it over to these guys and they called her back

 4 and she said you know, I need help, you know,

 5 tell me what to do, I don't know what to do and

 6 so they tried to get her to ask for money, what

 7 do you need. I don't know what you guys did.

 8 She never would cross that line to extortion.

 9 And we just blew her off. I never talked to her

10 and next thing I know she is --

11 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.) Celebrity on

12 television.

13 LOU SMIT: How would she have

14 gotten Pam's telephone number?


16 LOU SMIT: Patsy's sister?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I guess I didn't

18 know she talked to Pam. But it was, we were

19 writing in the paper at that time. Only thing I

20 can figure. There was our phone numbers is the

21 phone number.

22 LOU SMIT: You're saying that's

23 definitely not true, there is nothing?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: There is nothing

25 that happened. I have no clue who that woman


 1 is. I wanted these guys to go out and say look,

 2 give the poor guy some credit for having some

 3 taste. You know, she was --

 4 LOU SMIT: You have seen a picture

 5 of her?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, on television.

 7 They wouldn't do that. I don't know who she is.

 8 LOU SMIT: Just one other question

 9 along those lines. In the report, there is some

10 kind of an indication, this is somebody talking

11 about a blond bitch down the street that may

12 have interest in you.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy mentioned

14 that last night, that somebody said she called

15 somebody a blond bitch. And that even shocked

16 me. That doesn't ring a bell at all.

17 LOU SMIT: Do you know anybody in

18 the neighborhood that may have had an eye on

19 you?


21 LOU SMIT: Do you know anybody at

22 all?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I know some of

24 the people in the neighborhood, but --

25 LOU SMIT: Do you know a Debbie


 1 Shefley (phonetic)?


 3 LOU SMIT: Do you know an Otto

 4 Burdenier (phonetic)? Otto?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Otto rings a

 6 bell, but I don't know why. I think that was a

 7 name that came up later. I don't know him, but

 8 the name kind of rings a bell.

 9 LOU SMIT: They may live in the

10 block to the north of you.


12 LOU SMIT: Don't know anybody in

13 that area?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I mean, we

15 knew, that is a girl that was friends of the

16 Fernies who lived there, down the street with

17 her boyfriend a block or two north of us. Who I

18 met through the Fernies, you know, over for

19 dinner.

20 LOU SMIT: Could you tell me a

21 little about that person?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: She is an artist,

23 she is quite attractive, she is cute, probably

24 35 or 40. I can't think of her name. But she

25 was an either an art student of John Perry's or


 1 moving through, he used to be an art teacher I

 2 think or something, they were friends of the

 3 Fernies, she is actually quite a good artist.

 4 Some of the paintings, but she lived with a

 5 boyfriend and had a -- she was divorced, she

 6 had I think one or two boys that were, you know,

 7 kind of Burke's age, plus or minus a little.

 8 Not a good relationship with her

 9 ex-husband. There was some animosity as to

10 where the boys lived and where they went to

11 school, those kind of things.

12 LOU SMIT: How do you know

13 so much about it her?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: She was friends of

15 Barbara Fernie's and Barbara was a good friend

16 of Patsy's and so they always --

17 LOU SMIT: But you talk to

18 her too then I assume?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I probably been with

20 her, that was -- we had dinner once in Dicio's

21 (phonetic), with a big group and she was there.

22 That's the first time I met her.

23 She was with the Fernies at a

24 birthday party I think for either John or

25 Barbara, and I would see her once in awhile.


 1 Either at the Fernies or --

 2 LOU SMIT: Could that be who Patsy

 3 was referring to?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't have a clue.

 5 That's not the kind of words that Patsy would

 6 use. What Patsy thought, and there -- there is

 7 a woman that was lived down that way, and I

 8 can't think of her name. Who apparently ran,

 9 who used to jog and she ran by, knew this story,

10 she ran by Priscilla's house once and they had a

11 bunch of junk piled in their living room, had

12 been there forever and she asked Priscilla, "are

13 you ever going to clean up your house?"

14 And of course that wasn't the right

15 thing to say to Priscilla, and Priscilla used to

16 call her the blond bitch.

17 MIKE KANE: That could be who they

18 are referring to?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, and Patsy

20 didn't have any axe to grind with her. She was

21 kind of a neighbor friend, a neighborhood

22 friend. I can't think of her name but, she

23 lived on the next block to the north.

24 LOU SMIT: That answers that. Go

25 ahead.


 1 MIKE KANE: Just to follow up on

 2 what Lou was saying about Gloria Williams. You

 3 said you finally put a stop to it, or called and

 4 said -- how did you do it?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was

 6 actually Patsy indirectly or unknowingly helped

 7 that. I met Patsy, she was one of the first

 8 persons I met that I really cared about, and

 9 wanted to -- I always kind of thought she was

10 kind of a gift from my another to help me get my

11 life straightened out, who had died ten years

12 before.

13 But Patsy and I were down, we were

14 downstairs in the apartment, she was staying

15 cooking hamburgers, and I went upstairs to get

16 some more wine, and when I got up there, this

17 Gloria had called and said she was coming over

18 and I didn't want it to mess up my -- what was

19 just starting to be a relationship with Patsy.

20 And so I left the apartment, I just left. I

21 didn't want her to find me anywhere.

22 And she came over and was

23 apparently knocking on my door and Patsy by this

24 time was thinking, where in the world did I go?

25 She said she came upstairs, she tells the story


 1 later she came upstairs with these two wine

 2 glasses and here is this woman standing and

 3 knocking on my door and she said well, where is

 4 he? And this Gloria says he is in with her.

 5 Patsy said her, her who? She said Patsy. Oh,

 6 well, I was just bringing these wine glasses

 7 back.

 8 She was smooth as a cucumber, and

 9 later that evening, I came back, kind of told

10 her what had happened, I said I had this

11 girlfriend that was crazy and I just didn't want

12 it to -- and so I said I was going to stay

13 there that night and sleep on the couch, because

14 I didn't want to be in my apartment and we were

15 just talking and knock, knock, knock on the

16 door, and -- actually I think I was going to

17 leave. There was a knock on the door, and I was

18 literally behind the door, Patsy opened the

19 door, it's Gloria, and she said I was waiting

20 for John, I want to come in, use your phone and

21 Patsy, "oh, our phone is out of order, we just

22 moved in."

23 And here I was standing behind the

24 door, I was -- then she just was -- and from

25 that moment -- first of all, from that moment


 1 on, Gloria left me alone and I also realized how

 2 much, what a significant person Patsy was.

 3 Because here she was a 23-year-old, just

 4 standing there. So that was kind of the

 5 breaking point.

 6 LOU SMIT: Have you been able to

 7 locate her at all?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know,

 9 but I am very surprised that she hasn't

10 surfaced.

11 LOU SMIT: That is kind of an

12 unusual thing.


14 MIKE KANE: I was talking to you

15 about things that you have done yourself. You

16 mentioned the Internet. Anything else on the

17 Internet that you have done?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Not me

19 personally. I know we had a Web site, actually

20 looked at it the other day, it was out-of-date,

21 hadn't kept up, someone was doing that, it was

22 part of a press interference, but no.

23 MIKE KANE: Why hasn't it been kept

24 up?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we just


 1 couldn't afford to keep paying for that person

 2 to sit there and answer the phone for the press

 3 frankly. So we discontinued that.

 4 MIKE KANE: The Internet site

 5 itself, is that still up?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: It was the last I

 7 looked, which is maybe a month ago or.

 8 MIKE KANE: Outside of running that

 9 site, I mean is there anything that you have

10 done like research-wise or on the Internet?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: No, just I have done

12 searches on the SBTC. Primarily. That's all I

13 used it for, to try to figure that out. That

14 didn't hold up anything.

15 MIKE KANE: Outside of that, have

16 you made -- I mean are there other things that

17 -- maybe I should ask it this way. Is there --

18 are there things that you feel that you could do

19 but you haven't done yourself, personally?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah; no, not really

21 other than sit and look at evidence, things that

22 you have questions on, that I can perhaps shed

23 light on. No. That's kind of the remaining

24 thing I think we can do that we haven't been

25 able to do.


 1 MIKE KANE: Okay.

 2 LOU SMIT: I got a couple of

 3 things. How about Jamison?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: She called me. I

 5 mean I have heard of her, I heard she is a

 6 supporter and so forth, but I have never looked

 7 at her Web site. And she called me once in

 8 Atlanta, and we -- this was maybe a month or two

 9 ago, and I told her, I said I have always kind

10 of wanted to write you and thank you for being a

11 supporter, but I am sorry.

12 She said well, I would like to talk

13 to you, and I said well, hope you want her to

14 come to our house, because we didn't want her to

15 be there, it might be hard to (INAUDIBLE) we met

16 her for a cup of coffee and just little things

17 familiar with. (INAUDIBLE). That was I don't

18 know, a month or two ago.

19 LOU SMIT: Her name is Sue

20 Bennett, your name is Bennett?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

22 LOU SMIT: Is there any

23 relationship?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so, I

25 had a cousin named, I was thinking what was her


 1 name, I haven't seen her in years and years and

 2 years, but her name was, at least her maiden

 3 name was, they call her Susie Bennett or, it was

 4 close enough to think I wonder if it could be my

 5 cousin, but it wasn't.

 6 LOU SMIT: So when you met

 7 with her there was no relationship

 8 established like cousins or --

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I just

10 mentioned that my middle name was Bennett,

11 JonBenet was named after me.

12 LOU SMIT: And you never had

13 contact with her before personally or on

14 the Internet or anything like that or can

15 you --

16 JOHN RAMSEY: No, no, I

17 never did. She had written us a letter

18 once, I remember a letter because it said

19 Jamison, a/k/a Sue Bennett. That was

20 maybe a year ago.

21 LOU SMIT: So you have put

22 nothing on the Internet through her name

23 or anything like that?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: No. She said I

25 could if I wanted to, but that was one of the


 1 things she offered, if you want to get --

 2 LOU SMIT: Just recently?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, a month or so

 4 ago, yeah. In fact, she called the other day

 5 and along with Steven or whatever his name,

 6 Jeffrey Shapiro, so we changed our phone number.

 7 I mean she is a nice person, and --

 8 BRYAN MORGAN: I missed that, she

 9 called with Jeffrey?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: No, they had both

11 called. Somehow -- I was more concerned about

12 the fact that Jeffrey Shapiro had our phone

13 number. But we changed the number anyway so.

14 MIKE KANE: Let me follow up on

15 this. How did you know about her?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I guess I started to

17 hear about her from friends that, Susan Stine, I

18 don't remember, Susan checked some of that

19 stuff, the Internet stuff. I think it just kind

20 of started coming out that she was is a

21 supporter. And we just started hearing about

22 her.

23 MIKE KANE: You said you didn't

24 have any direct contact. How about indirect,

25 through others?




 3 JOHN RAMSEY: No. We had gotten a

 4 couple of messages from her through my brother's

 5 sister-in-law who apparently had communicated

 6 with her a few times.



 9 MIKE KANE: When you met her for

10 coffee, where was that?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: It was at a coffee

12 shop in the neighborhood, Moonbeam Coffee Shop.

13 MIKE KANE: She came down?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum. She was

15 in Atlanta with her family to go to Six Flags.

16 MIKE KANE: Is she from that area?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: She is from North

18 Carolina, I think.

19 MIKE KANE: What did she want to

20 talk about?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I really don't know.

22 I mean she seemed to be more concerned about

23 what the tabloids were saying about us. And she

24 said I know what they are going to attack you

25 on, you know. You know, we don't care, I mean


 1 the tabloids are -- makes us angry, but it's

 2 not of concern to us, in terms of I mean if it

 3 had been The New York Times, I guess, if they

 4 had come out with some big story, it might be

 5 more concerning, but I think she was just --

 6 just felt genuine concern for us, and our

 7 polite.

 8 MIKE KANE: Do you know why?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. No.

10 MIKE KANE: Did she seem --

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Mostly.


13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, anybody that

14 could sit on a computer for a hundred hours a

15 day or whatever she does, no way I am going to

16 -- sorry.

17 VOICE: Remember you still do those

18 things.


20 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean she obviously

21 she is obsessed with it, but she mostly seemed

22 pretty normal. She had a child and she home

23 schooled, she mentioned that.

24 MIKE KANE: Have you ever given her

25 anything of value, besides the --


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Money-wise, no.

 2 MIKE KANE: Or anything besides

 3 money that's of value?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I mean, I wanted

 5 to write her and just thank her for being one of

 6 our few supporters, and just kind of an

 7 opportunity to -- I didn't want to blow her

 8 off, you know, I just didn't feel that was

 9 appropriate.

10 MIKE KANE: Why didn't you write

11 her?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't know where

13 to write her for starters. I had a letter from

14 her, there were hundreds and hundreds that we

15 kept, you know. Just something I was always

16 going to do tomorrow.

17 LOU SMIT: I can't think of

18 more --

19 MIKE KANE: Okay. I don't know if

20 this is any particular -- I tried to keep this

21 in order, but it's now totally out of order, but

22 I will just jump as I go through a page here.

23 On that morning I think before last April, when

24 you gave a statement about this, you were

25 describing, I mean there were some disagreement


 1 or confusion about if you checked the doors that

 2 night and you said that you hadn't checked the

 3 doors that night.

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, you know, one

 5 of the things that perplexed me is how did this

 6 person get in. When Linda Arndt was there, I

 7 used to say I don't know how they got in. The

 8 doors are locked. Well, these guys said did you

 9 check all the doors, I said yeah. Well, did you

10 check all the doors? Well no, I didn't, there

11 is doors on the second floor, you know, I guess

12 I didn't check all the doors.

13 So you know, if -- I don't remember

14 specifically what you're talking about, but I am

15 sure I told Linda Arndt the doors are all

16 locked. I don't know how they got in. But the

17 fact of the matter is I didn't check the door in

18 JonBenet's room, I didn't check the door in the

19 TV room, I didn't check the door on the third

20 floor bathroom, I don't remember checking the

21 pantry door. So I mean, I checked the doors

22 that we normally used, and would have left open,

23 you know, accidentally, perhaps, but.

24 MIKE KANE: Okay. And then you

25 also went down the basement, at some point you


 1 saw, you know --

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 3 MIKE KANE: -- that window?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 5 MIKE KANE: Are there other windows

 6 in the basement besides that?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Those are the

 8 only -- there is one set of windows, the rest

 9 of them are blocked up, through remodeling

10 or -- I am pretty sure. There is a little

11 window, a little bathroom right here, I don't

12 remember if that's open or -- it might have

13 been a window, I forget now.

14 MIKE KANE: The night before you

15 got home, I just had a couple of questions but

16 you covered it pretty much. When you were

17 saying you carried her upstairs. When you got

18 to her bedroom, and she was still asleep at that

19 point, did you put her in her bed?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I laid her on the

21 bed. I didn't -- I don't remember the cover,

22 if the bed was made or not, but I laid her on

23 the bed. Because I knew Patsy would follow up

24 to put her nightgown on and get her ready for

25 bed.


 1 MIKE KANE: The blanket you don't

 2 recall whether that --

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't.

 4 MIKE KANE: Was that usually on the

 5 bed?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: It should have been.

 7 I mean it was wintertime.


 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know.

10 When I saw that blanket that morning, that you

11 know, I found her, I didn't -- I didn't know

12 where that blanket came from. Patsy later said

13 probably came from the bed. But I don't know

14 that she's actually seen the blanket. I don't

15 know whether she wants to or not, but that was

16 her speculation.

17 MIKE KANE: And so you put her in

18 the bed and you said Patsy would normally get

19 her ready. I mean if you were out and came

20 home?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: That was pretty

22 standard.

23 MIKE KANE: Patsy dress her?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

25 MIKE KANE: If she was asleep?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Or at lest take

 2 off, sometimes she would leave her in her tee

 3 shirt, underwear, but --

 4 MIKE KANE: So you left the room, I

 5 take it, you said you went to play with --

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I went to try to get

 7 Burke to bed. He was downstairs in the living

 8 room working on a toy.

 9 MIKE KANE: So you went back in

10 that area, let me see, up here where her bedroom

11 was again?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I went back, I came

13 down here, Burke was here on the floor. By the

14 Christmas tree.

15 MIKE KANE: Do you remember what it

16 was he was playing with?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Some kind of

18 little square car elevator, you know, I don't

19 know, it was a -- something only a child would

20 appreciate, but it was like a car, garage repair

21 thing, elevators run up and down and stuff,

22 little micro cars.

23 MIKE KANE: When you took him up to

24 bed, I imagine you went up that front steps?



 1 MIKE KANE: To the bedroom?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 3 MIKE KANE: I see we are back in

 4 that back part of the house?


 6 MIKE KANE: All right. And from

 7 that point, you -- did you go right to your

 8 bedroom?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: I think so.

10 MIKE KANE: Up the next set of

11 steps?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: As I recall, yes.

13 Just I remember going up to bed.

14 MIKE KANE: And you said you may

15 have read for a while?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I did, you

17 know, a few pages, but I fell asleep pretty

18 quick.

19 MIKE KANE: Patsy was already in

20 bed?


22 MIKE KANE: In the morning, after

23 Patsy came running up the steps, told you what

24 she had found, where did you look for her? You

25 said that you, I think you used the word --



 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I ran back

 3 up and looked in her room, and I think accepted

 4 the fact that she was gone. And you know, I

 5 don't remember, I mean I said I remember I

 6 looked in the refrigerator. Just -- I just

 7 tried to look in Places like -- (INAUDIBLE). I

 8 wasn't looking for her hiding. That wasn't in

 9 the equation, but, I -- I, I think I just

10 accepted that she was gone from the house pretty

11 quick. As did I think the police. Of course we

12 used to operate on that assumption that I was

13 worried about her being cold, you know, it was

14 wintertime. All these thoughts go through your

15 head.

16 LOU SMIT: Could I interject.

17 This is a good time to do that. You said that

18 you went through all the house, you were looking

19 at different things. Did you go into John

20 Andrew's room?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: We did when we

22 sat down with Linda Arndt, she wanted to, you

23 know, kind of get out of the crowd, she would

24 sit down and tell me what to do when the call

25 came, so we went into John Andrew's room.


 1 LOU SMIT: Did you look in

 2 closets and things in that room?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I remember.

 4 LOU SMIT: I am going to show

 5 you a picture of John Andrew's room and

 6 it's picture 29. That's this picture

 7 right here and your head might be in the

 8 way there. Picture 29. And what it is,

 9 you tell me which room that is, and see if

10 you can make any observations of that room

11 and then I will touch on something a

12 little bit later. This was taken during

13 the kidnapping phase.

14 JOHN RAMSEY: It's John

15 Andrew's room. There are some clothes piled on

16 the chair, which isn't unusual. Maybe it's a

17 backpack. Some red thing with a black and white

18 looks like it might be one of JonBenet's

19 outfits. Clothes stacked.

20 LOU SMIT: Do you remember

21 looking under the bed?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: (Shaking head).

23 LOU SMIT: Take a look at

24 the ruffle on the bed.



 1 disturbed. And I didn't look under the

 2 bed. It's pulled out.

 3 LOU SMIT: Is that something

 4 that would be usual or unusual?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it may be a

 6 bit unusual. That room didn't get used much and

 7 the cleaning ladies would clean it and make it

 8 neat and Patsy used it to fold laundry, on top

 9 of the bed, but it didn't get used. So you

10 know, somebody would have straightened that out

11 when they cleaned the room, I am sure. It's a

12 little unusual I would say.

13 LOU SMIT: If I might just

14 touch on a couple of other things. When

15 you, the police officers at one time asked

16 you for a note pad.

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

18 LOU SMIT: Tell me the

19 circumstances surrounding that?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Linda Arndt when

21 we found the note and she said look, as a matter

22 of routine, I need samples of your handwriting

23 and Patsy's, just routine, I said I understand.

24 So I grabbed a note pad that had some of Patsy's

25 grocery lists or something on it, and I said


 1 this is Patsy's handwriting and they grabbed a

 2 pad I had taken some notes on from a seminar and

 3 it was on the bar and I said this is my

 4 handwriting.

 5 LOU SMIT: Where, do you remember?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: This bar.

 7 LOU SMIT: And where was

 8 Patsy's?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy's was on

10 this table here.

11 MIKE KANE: Okay.

12 VOICE: John, would you point to

13 the bar again?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: This is the back

15 hall in the garage, this little sink bar that I

16 had, the sink was right there. Pad that I

17 picked up.

18 LOU SMIT: Was on that table?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Was on that

20 table.

21 LOU SMIT: Okay.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I just gave

23 them the whole pad. I said this is

24 Patsy's handwriting, this is mine.

25 LOU SMIT: Okay. Now, I am


 1 going to show you two photographs; that's

 2 number 52 and number 645, that shows that

 3 particular area. And I will show that for

 4 the camera. Can you pick that up? And

 5 these were taken again during the

 6 kidnapping phase of the investigation.

 7 Now, if you will just take, first of all,

 8 52 and tell me what you see there?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's the back

10 hall. There is a couple of things over here by

11 the stairway that would have been put there to

12 take downstairs for storage. There's a plastic

13 bag.

14 LOU SMIT: Do you know what's

15 in that bag?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Not for sure.

17 LOU SMIT: Do you know why

18 it's there?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Not for sure. No.

20 It don't -- it doesn't (INAUDIBLE).

21 LOU SMIT: Did here Patsy say

22 where she got the note from?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: She said it was on

24 one of the steps, I think the third step or the

25 second step of this spiral staircase.


 1 LOU SMIT: Did she say how

 2 she first observed that, what caught her

 3 attention?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Just that it was

 5 laying this, she came down the steps, and she

 6 said at first she thought it was a note from the

 7 cleaning lady, because it kind of looked like

 8 her handwriting, just didn't put much account to

 9 it. I mean, what is somewhat meaningful is that

10 that's -- 95 percent of the time we came up and

11 down that stairway.

12 LOU SMIT: You used it all

13 the time?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: All the time.

15 MIKE KANE: And would people know

16 you used it? Seems like if you put something

17 there people would know?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

19 LOU SMIT: Who would know that?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I wish I knew. I

21 mean, that's one of the things that perplexed

22 us, why not the front stairway, which you know,

23 you might -- you could very logically say I

24 come down that way.

25 LOU SMIT: Why not on the


 1 bed, on her bed?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know.

 3 LOU SMIT: Who would know

 4 that you would use it? I mean, this may

 5 be a clue and that's why --

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I think, and Patsy

 7 and I have talked about that, that somebody must

 8 have known that we use that stairway all the

 9 time. I don't know if a cleaning lady ever left

10 notes there for her, for example.

11 LOU SMIT: Did anyone else

12 ever leave notes? Have you ever had a

13 note or had anything left there?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I remember.

15 I mean if I left Patsy a note I usually leave it

16 on the kitchen counter. You always go to the

17 kitchen first. When we came back. If I left

18 her a note, she was gone somewhere, she would

19 always come back to the kitchen first, so that's

20 where I leave notes. I mean, yeah, I think

21 that's pretty significant.

22 LOU SMIT: Now what table

23 did you get Patsy's pad from?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I am pretty sure it

25 was this table. I don't know if that's it or it


 1 doesn't quite look like in this picture, but I

 2 think it was laying on this table. The only

 3 other place it could have been, but I swear I

 4 picked it up off this table, would have been the

 5 telephone table right here.

 6 LOU SMIT: Do you

 7 remember --

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Not with a

 9 hundred percent certainty, but I would, my

10 recollection is that I picked it up off of

11 this table.

12 LOU SMIT: Just one more

13 question. I have got a photograph here

14 called 17.7. Somehow this is in your roll

15 of pictures or someone's roll of pictures

16 from before, okay, and it shows, first of

17 all, put it to the camera so they can see

18 that. And I am going to show you that.


20 LOU SMIT: Do you know who

21 would have taken that photograph?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: It's remotely

23 possible that I was having trouble with my

24 camera, I think, and I don't remember doing

25 this, but I can remember just clicking the


 1 camera, trying to see if it worked.

 2 LOU SMIT: When was that?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, I don't

 4 know. I mean it was, you know, the only time we

 5 got the cameras out were typically at Christmas

 6 time. But this looks like the pad frankly that

 7 I gave her.

 8 LOU SMIT: Does that look

 9 like the spot where you would -- that you

10 picked it up from?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, my

12 recollection, yeah.

13 LOU SMIT: So that could be

14 the actual pad of a picture taken prior to

15 what happened?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: That's possible.

17 LOU SMIT: What else do you

18 notice?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, this bag is

20 still there, the school bag in the corner. The

21 toy is still roughly where it was. There is a,

22 I think that was a Santa Claus or something that

23 was --

24 LOU SMIT: Santa Claus suit?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Suit, yeah, or


 1 something, likes look. I don't remember what it

 2 was. But that's there. Looks like it's still

 3 in this picture. This red present is still

 4 there. Day-Timer is not there in this picture.

 5 LOU SMIT: What?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: The Day-Timer

 7 doesn't look like it's there in this picture.

 8 LOU SMIT: In the picture

 9 taken prior, the Day-Timer is not there?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I think that

11 is -- I think that is my Day-Timer, but I am

12 not sure. I had one that was similar, black.

13 LOU SMIT: You notice the

14 bags that are in this picture dated prior,

15 the prior one, the bags, the plastic bags,

16 does it appear as they have been moved to

17 you?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

19 Definitely.

20 LOU SMIT: Do you know why

21 they would have been moved?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know what's

23 in there. I mean it -- there is something else

24 of course here on the floor, looks like a

25 stocking or something, Christmas stocking. But


 1 no, I don't. I mean I can't -- sometimes when

 2 we bag up clothes that we were going to give

 3 away, you know, that might have been what that

 4 was.

 5 LOU SMIT: That's kind of

 6 coincidental, isn't it, to have a

 7 picture --

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, it is.

 9 You think this came off my camera or

10 you're not sure?

11 MIKE KANE: I am pretty sure it

12 came off your camera.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: They asked if we had

14 any pictures of the Christmas party and I

15 literally -- well, it's possible, because we

16 had an unusual, an uncompleted roll of film in

17 the camera and I think I clicked off some

18 pictures fairly quickly just to finish up the

19 roll, handed it to the policeman, one of the

20 uniform fellows that was there, and they took it

21 to get developed.

22 LOU SMIT: Okay. So this

23 picture here with the pad --

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Could have

25 been when I was just burning up pictures.


 1 LOU SMIT: At the scene?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 3 LOU SMIT: That morning?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 5 LOU SMIT: So it could have been

 6 taken just shortly before?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Right, it's

 8 possible. That I think I remember they wanted

 9 pictures of the party and I said yeah, we got

10 'em, there was wasn't complete.

11 LOU SMIT: So then that would

12 show the pad in its spot that morning?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

14 LOU SMIT: Prior to you giving it

15 to the police officer?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

17 LOU SMIT: That explains that then.

18 BRYAN MORGAN: If that's what --


20 BRYAN MORGAN: I think when did you

21 do that?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Pretty early on.

23 I mean, I think we very early on were concerned

24 about the cleaning lady and the fact that she,

25 you know, asked to borrow money and called Patsy


 1 all upset and had a big fight with her sister

 2 the day before. I mean this was just kind of

 3 like coming out, I didn't know about it, and you

 4 know, Officer French was there, we very quickly

 5 focused on the cleaning lady. I think they had

 6 a wire tap put in place, they got hold of the

 7 police in wherever she lives, Lafayette or

 8 something like that, and they got involved.

 9 So I think they wanted pictures of

10 the party because I think she was -- she was at

11 that 23rd party. Is I think the reason why they

12 wanted that roll of film. As well as they had

13 pictures of JonBenet on it. I don't remember if

14 that was the reason or not, but...

15 LOU SMIT: So then when this

16 photograph was taken you think you clicked

17 some off?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

19 LOU SMIT: That's why it

20 shows the pad there and then later you

21 gave the pad to the officer?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

23 LOU SMIT: Now it's a short time

24 later then that these photographs are taken and

25 trying to figure out why they would have moved


 1 the bag?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, there is

 3 something else laying there too.

 4 LOU SMIT: So that's a

 5 question we have to answer.

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I don't know.

 7 There is no reason I would have moved it.

 8 LOU SMIT: So that wouldn't

 9 have been three days prior that this thing

10 was taken, but it could have just been

11 taken hours prior--

12 JOHN RAMSEY: It could have been

13 that morning. Yeah, it could have been.

14 BRYAN MORGAN: Could I see the

15 photograph? Lou, is there any way to tell where

16 in the sequence of the roll it was taken?

17 LOU SMIT: On the roll of John --

18 I am sure there is. I am sure the negatives

19 would be available.


21 LOU SMIT: That would show what

22 number, that's absolutely true. Now if you

23 remember doing that?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I do, I think I did

25 it, because I had to finish the roll up to get


 1 it out of the camera.

 2 LOU SMIT: Makes sense.

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Because it was

 4 one of those electric rewinds and all that.

 5 MIKE KANE: What kind of camera

 6 was it?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I -- it's a --

 8 well, I am stretching if I try and remember. We

 9 got a new camera, but I think that was after --

10 after that.

11 VOICE: But it had an auto winder?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, I am pretty

13 sure it did. Yeah, I am sure it rewound or --

14 it was one of those cartridge (INAUDIBLE).

15 LOU SMIT: I just, if I could just

16 -- I know it's getting close to five on our

17 thing -- I think we came here a quarter after

18 and the tape was put on, these are two-hour

19 tapes, so we still have a little bit of time but

20 I wanted to ask you a question and that's in

21 regards to the pineapple.

22 Again, did you discuss that at all

23 or try to find out what the reason for the

24 pineapple in the bowl was, last night?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Last night? I


 1 told, let's see, if I tell Patsy that there --

 2 I think I mentioned that I was puzzled by the

 3 bowl, the large bowl of what appeared to be

 4 pineapple with a big serving spoon in it. It

 5 didn't register with her. She said I hope they

 6 show you a picture, because I think that's --

 7 LOU SMIT: We can do that at some

 8 point.

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: It didn't register

10 with her last night. I guess what I would want

11 to ask her is where did you keep that

12 silverware, is that in fact your good silverware

13 in wherever it was kept. Because we had a

14 drawer and just you know, everyday silverware,

15 it was always full of teaspoons, there was a

16 million teaspoons, and why that bowl had a big

17 serving spoon in it, and what I think was, you

18 know, a good silver, doesn't make any sense to

19 me.

20 LOU SMIT: That's a question we

21 have to try to figure out, what happened there,

22 when that bowl was placed there and who did

23 that.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Right, where this

25 spoon came from.


 1 LOU SMIT: And even the

 2 pineapple.

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, is that

 4 what was in the bowl?

 5 LOU SMIT: Yeah. And we, and

 6 we haven't talked about this too much, but

 7 have you heard anything about pineapple in

 8 regards to your daughter?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Just that it was

10 a question mark that there was either was or

11 could have been pineapple in her system.

12 LOU SMIT: And where did you

13 hear that?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it's been on the

15 tabloids, been on television; I think these

16 fellows asked me about it. It started to come

17 up as a question, at least in the media.

18 LOU SMIT: See, that is a

19 question, when did JonBenet eat pineapple?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know.

21 I mean, the I will guarantee you it was not

22 after she came home. She was sound asleep. So

23 it had to be at the Whites or prior to that.

24 LOU SMIT: Okay. Now when

25 you say it wouldn't be afterwards, I mean


 1 now that's why you know this is going to

 2 be a (INAUDIBLE) the question that's going

 3 to always be asked?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: She was sound

 5 asleep. When I carried her upstairs. I mean I

 6 noted when I got her out of the car, and I

 7 struggled to get her out of the back seat and

 8 she was just, (NOISE) I almost dropped her, I

 9 kind of struggled to get her up in my arms and

10 it didn't phase her, she didn't wake up, she was

11 just out. And I know, if she goes to sleep, she

12 is -- that's it for the night.

13 LOU SMIT: Next question is,

14 is could someone have gotten her up and

15 fed her pineapple? I mean that is a

16 logical question, and that's the question

17 we have to answer.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I can't

19 imagine that somebody could have gotten

20 her up, fed her pineapple, and she

21 wouldn't have screamed bloody murder.

22 LOU SMIT: Why?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: What if it was a

24 stranger.

25 LOU SMIT: Well, it was.


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Had to be.

 2 MIKE KANE: Well, could have been

 3 -- (INAUDIBLE)--?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy said she

 5 didn't give her any -- I mean, first of all, if

 6 we had said oh, yeah, well, we gave her

 7 pineapple, that would have ended the discussion.

 8 LOU SMIT: That's correct.

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: But we didn't.

10 LOU SMIT: But the fact

11 though, John, is she has pineapple in her

12 intestines, okay. She has that in there.

13 No one has fed her pineapple that we know

14 of.

15 Could someone have fed her

16 pineapple that night is all I will say,

17 could somebody have done it? I mean if

18 it's in there, that is a positive. There

19 is nothing --


21 JOHN RAMSEY: I understand,

22 I understand. I mean, my suspicion when I

23 first heard that was well, there must have

24 been pineapple at the Whites' house, and I

25 don't remember it but there was all sorts


 1 of little finger foods and the kids were,

 2 you know, in and out and grabbing this and

 3 that. We understand the Whites said no,

 4 they didn't serve pineapple. That's

 5 factual or not, but I guess my question

 6 would be well, did the kids go to the

 7 refrigerator, you know, and get a bite of

 8 pineapple at the Whites.

 9 If it wasn't there and was it

10 earlier in the day, Patsy would most likely

11 know, you know. She liked pineapple. And it

12 wasn't -- if there was open pineapple in the

13 refrigerator, it wouldn't have been -- I am not

14 sure she could get that refrigerator door open.

15 You have to ask Patsy. It was not easy, it was

16 like a freezer door, big walk-in freezer door,

17 it wasn't that easy to pop open.

18 But they certainly weren't above

19 going in the pantry, grabbing a box of cereal

20 and, you know, having cereal and stuff. So I

21 guess to say if it was, would not have been out

22 of the question that she grabbed some out of the

23 refrigerator in the day sometime, but I don't

24 know that she could get the door open.

25 But I mean, it's hard for to me to


 1 think that this intruder could have taken her

 2 downstairs and fed her pineapple. I just can't

 3 buy that.

 4 LOU SMIT: See, that is the

 5 thing, that's the one thing --


 7 On the counter you mean.

 8 LOU SMIT: We don't know.

 9 The pineapple is inside her, so we have to

10 figure out how that pineapple got there.

11 There is one way it could get there, she

12 had to eat it at some point.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Are you sure it was

14 pineapple?

15 LOU SMIT: Yes.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: No question?

17 LOU SMIT: No question. No

18 question. So that's always been the big

19 bugaboo.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: What's the -- is

21 there a time line based on where it was in the

22 digestive system?

23 LOU SMIT: That's always open

24 to people's opinions. But there is

25 various theories it could be anywhere from


 1 two hours to more than that. But again,

 2 it is in her intestine.

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well my -- my

 4 amateur reasoning would be that she came

 5 home at -- she was in bed, she was asleep

 6 before we got home, which was, you know,

 7 9:00, 9:15. I believe she was killed that

 8 night.

 9 LOU SMIT: What night?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: The 25th. If I have

11 my dates right. The 26th, evening of the 26th,

12 rather than early in the morning or the next

13 morning.

14 LOU SMIT: Think about the

15 date.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well okay, the 25th,

17 Christmas Day night. So if you said midnight,

18 that means there is three hours that I would say

19 there is no way she could have eaten any, as --

20 it's a time mark. I think Patsy -- see that

21 picture, asked to see if that bowl looks like

22 something that would have been in the

23 refrigerator and left out, did JonBenet grab a

24 bite when she left the house, I don't know. But

25 I know as a father and as sound asleep as she


 1 was, that she didn't get up, we didn't feed her

 2 when we got home.

 3 She wouldn't have gotten up, Patsy

 4 didn't get up. She would have gotten up to feed

 5 her. So that isn't an option in my mind. I

 6 mean, it would be -- an intruder drug her down

 7 there and tried to feed her something, she would

 8 have screamed bloody murder. If she opened her

 9 mouth to eat pineapple, she would have screamed

10 bloody murder.

11 LOU SMIT: But still it's a

12 fact that it's in there. There is nothing

13 that we can do to change that particular

14 fact.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I understand.

16 LOU SMIT: So is there any

17 possibility at all that Patsy could have

18 done that, have gotten up and gone down

19 there?


21 LOU SMIT: Would you have known it

22 if she had?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I wouldn't have

24 known it but she certainly would have said it.

25 I mean, there was no reason she would have


 1 denied it. I mean, it would be very easy, if we

 2 were trying to hide this, it would be very easy

 3 to say oh, yeah, I got up and fed her pineapple,

 4 that explains that, then put her back to bed.

 5 We didn't. So I --

 6 LOU SMIT: This is why, you know,

 7 people think about those things, and especially

 8 detectives.

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, what I -- I

10 guess one of the things that I felt all along is

11 I mean this thing with oh, you know, we found

12 the practice note and ransom note -- the

13 practice ransom note on the pad. If I was

14 setting this up, give me some credit for being

15 smarter than that. You know, would I have

16 handed Linda Arndt the pad that I wrote the

17 practice note on? If we were trying to disguise

18 something, why wouldn't we say oh, yeah, we fed

19 her pineapple before she went to bed, that

20 explains that. We didn't.

21 So I can't -- I don't accept that

22 that happened. If it did, I would have said it

23 or Patsy would have said it. Even if we were

24 guilty, I mean what's the big deal? I mean you

25 know, what I mean, that it didn't happen. I


 1 know it didn't happen after she went to bed. So

 2 I -- there has to be another answer to that

 3 question. Than that she got up in the middle of

 4 the night and had a big bowl of pineapple and

 5 went back to bed or we got her up. So...

 6 LOU SMIT: Did she ever go

 7 out on her own to go down there and eat

 8 pineapple?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall that

10 she ever did. I don't know. I don't think so.

11 Not that I remember, ever, at night. She was

12 getting to the point where she was -- she used

13 to be not afraid of the dark or anything at all

14 and then she was getting kind of -- she was

15 growing up a little bit and getting afraid of

16 the dark and, you know, just kind of normal

17 things that -- that people start to think

18 about.

19 But she wouldn't have been -- I

20 mean, we were out solidly asleep, we were all

21 tired. Christmas is a big day, it's exhausting.

22 I know she was, had to be exhausted.

23 LOU SMIT: Can you see why we have

24 that concern, though?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I can see why


 1 you -- you know, this question, where did it

 2 come from, but I don't think -- other than the

 3 fact that there is this bowl on the table, which

 4 I can't -- Patsy needs to look at it to answer

 5 that question. But I don't -- it's either very

 6 significant if the intruder somehow -- well,

 7 that just doesn't make sense.

 8 I mean JonBenet was a smart, strong

 9 little girl. And if she had the opportunity to

10 scream and to kick and fight, she would have

11 done that. No question in my mind. So I don't

12 buy that, you know, an intruder sat her down and

13 fed her pineapple.

14 LOU SMIT: That explains how

15 she got that? We have got to figure that

16 out?


18 LOU SMIT: I know.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think

20 Patsy needs to see that picture, see if

21 that makes any sense to her, that bowl.

22 It didn't to me. If our kids or if we had

23 prepared food for our kids, we would have

24 given a teaspoon, because there is a whole

25 drawer full of them. It would have been a


 1 heaping bowl of pineapple. Just -- if

 2 that bowl were in the refrigerator,

 3 covered with Saran Wrap or something, it's

 4 possible that Patsy would remember that.

 5 But I have to look at the

 6 picture, I can't see any other explanation

 7 -- it looked strange to me. Quite

 8 frankly.

 9 LOU SMIT: Mike?

10 MIKE KANE: No, I don't have

11 anything.

12 LOU SMIT: You know, I

13 might touch on this again and I know

14 that's kind of an unsettling question for

15 you because it put questions in your mind

16 which is very difficult and we have had

17 those questions in our mind too, how does

18 that happen. We will touch on this again,

19 okay?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: (Nodding head.)

21 LOU SMIT: Maybe something will

22 come to you and we will find that out.

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, well, I

24 thought about it a lot, I mean what I have

25 principally thought about is was there pineapple


 1 at the Whites' house, and along with the other

 2 snack foods. I just didn't pay that much

 3 attention. The only thing I specifically

 4 remember was the cracked crab and Priscilla

 5 making a plate of it for JonBenet.

 6 LOU SMIT: I think there was

 7 a key to figuring this out too. You never

 8 know if sometimes things that puzzle you

 9 the most are the keys to figuring it out.

10 So who knows what this will bring. Why

11 don't we take a little break. I know that

12 the camera is running low on film


14 VOICE: Let's do some

15 scheduling. How long do you think you

16 have more?

17 MIKE KANE: I have quite a

18 few pages. (INAUDIBLE).

19 MIKE KANE: I will bet I

20 have maybe five hours for this guy. Four

21 hours maybe, four hours.

22 BRYAN MORGAN: Are we going

23 to be looking at any more pictures?

24 LOU SMIT: I have a whole

25 bunch of stuff that I can show you later.


 1 I don't know if you want to reschedule

 2 those or not. Like I say, there is a ton

 3 of stuff that we can go through.

 4 BRYAN MORGAN: Here is the

 5 thing.

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Excuse me.

 7 (Mr. Ramsey left the room.)

 8 BRYAN MORGAN: I don't know

 9 if anybody appreciates what this means.

10 They got to worry about their child, they

11 got to worry about where we are going,

12 they got to worry about a bunch of people

13 yelling and screaming. What I was

14 thinking of is there any we can audio tape

15 this tomorrow?

16 We have two full days of this

17 guy on tape, and I don't know anybody

18 thinks that's so damn important, but

19 whatever you needed them for, it's done.

20 I am wondering if there is not some way we

21 can do the questioning tomorrow in a place

22 where it would be audio taped and moved to

23 a site so we can't be seen.


25 LOU SMIT: I think


 1 you're going to have to talk that over

 2 with Peter Hofstrom and Alex, they are in

 3 contact with other people that want

 4 certain things done too. Why don't we

 5 take a break and try to figure that out.

 6 And we will just make a decision.

 7 I am here for the duration,

 8 Mike's here for the duration, we will be

 9 here for as long as anybody wants to be

10 here.

11 MIKE KANE: You know,

12 believe me, I appreciate the concern, we

13 talked about this beforehand internally

14 about just how to avoid any backup

15 contingent plans if we showed up the first

16 day with the press out there, and we did

17 have those. But one of the things I know

18 that the access to here doesn't have to be

19 through the parking lot.

20 BRYAN MORGAN: I understand

21 that, but look -- there is, our life

22 doesn't stop and start here. It's where

23 do you go and where do you get home and

24 where do you stay and do you move every

25 night and all of that. The problem is not


 1 while we are here, the problem starts when

 2 we leave.

 3 LOU SMIT: But maybe we can

 4 have a diversion, we have done that before

 5 where we have a diversion and we did that

 6 before.

 7 (Discussion off the record).

 8 (Recess taken).



















 1 __________________________________________







 8 __________________________________________






14 PAGES 532 - 704





19 JUNE 25, 1998


































 1 LOU SMIT: We are ready to

 2 start. I am pretty sure the camera is

 3 rolling. Today's date is Thursday, the

 4 25th of June, 1998, it is approximately

 5 9:15 in the morning. Again for voice

 6 identification, for everybody.

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: John Ramsey.

 8 BRYAN MORGAN: Bryan Morgan.


10 Williams.

11 MIKE KANE: Mike Kane.

12 LOU SMIT: We would like to

13 start off this morning and I am going to

14 show Mr. Ramsey some photographs and the

15 first photograph I am going to show, I

16 will hold off just a little bit. You're

17 familiar with your house pretty well on

18 the 26th when this occurred?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

20 LOU SMIT: John Andrew's bedroom,

21 did you ever recall any rope or cord being in

22 his room?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Gee, it's possible,

24 John Andrew loved the outdoors, he was there, I

25 stayed in that room. I know he had seems like


 1 he had his backpack there for a while. So it

 2 wouldn't be -- I don't remember seeing any, but

 3 it wouldn't be --

 4 LOU SMIT: I would like to show you

 5 a photograph and have you just take a look at

 6 it. Do you ever remember seeing anything like

 7 that and on the back, this is just a container

 8 for it, that's photo number 114 and I will show

 9 it 114 and I will show it to the camera.


11 LOU SMIT: You can turn it over.

12 There is another --

13 JOHN RAMSEY: The person obviously

14 I think you know would be John Andrew, but I

15 don't -- it doesn't ring a bell.

16 LOU SMIT: But he could have had

17 things there in his backpack?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: It wouldn't have

19 been out of the question.

20 LOU SMIT: Just for the camera, the

21 photographs we are looking at is photo 113, 114,

22 115 and 116, and I will just hold that up to let

23 the camera take a look.

24 BRYAN MORGAN: May I ask just one

25 question. Can you tell us if this is the form


 1 in which it was originally found?

 2 LOU SMIT: No, that's the bag it

 3 was put in for evidence.

 4 BRYAN MORGAN: So the paper bag is

 5 just in evidence.

 6 LOU SMIT: Evidence bag. And

 7 again that was just found in the room, and it

 8 was found in a bag in her room, that's all I can

 9 tell you at this time.

10 BRYAN MORGAN: In a bag.

11 LOU SMIT: Okay. We will just go

12 on to the next photograph. I am going to show

13 you a photograph, this will -- you had

14 described your flashlight before. The one that

15 you had. And we had a photograph on the counter

16 of a flashlight and we discussed that before. I

17 am going to show you another photograph and have

18 you take a look at that, see if that looks

19 familiar to you, that's a photograph of a

20 flashlight, and I don't have a number associated

21 with that.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's dirty.

23 Mine was hardly used. You know, it was

24 completely black. I don't know what the scale

25 is here. Is that 3 feet do you suppose or maybe


 1 that's -- (handing a magnifying glass).


 3 JOHN RAMSEY: It's dirty. Mine

 4 was not dirty.

 5 LOU SMIT: Is that a similar type

 6 flashlight as to what you --

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: It is similar if

 8 that's a metal case, and it looks similar. The

 9 end looks a lot different, the end where the

10 battery is in. It looks -- looks similar, but

11 it's very dirty. Mine was, I don't think mine

12 ever got used; it was just in the drawer.

13 LOU SMIT: Just another question to

14 touch on the flashlight. You have seen the

15 photograph before of the flashlight on the

16 kitchen counter. Do you have any idea how that

17 got there, have you thought about that?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: A little bit, but I

19 didn't have a flashlight that morning, no, I

20 don't. I mean there was a lot of chaos going on

21 and the kitchen was kind of ground zero, so the

22 police could have left one there or whatever,

23 but no, I don't. I don't remember ever leaving

24 a flashlight there.

25 LOU SMIT: You had said before that


 1 you had gotten some binoculars and things to

 2 look out the window. Is it possible you took

 3 things out of the drawer, that's just a --

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't think

 5 so, because the binoculars were upstairs in my

 6 bedroom. That's where I went to bed.

 7 LOU SMIT: I would like to show you

 8 another photograph and this again is photograph

 9 562 and this was also a photograph taken during

10 the crime scene investigation, and again I will

11 just hold this up to the camera. It shows a bag

12 and I would like you to identify that, if you

13 can.

14 JOHN RAMSEY: That's a plaque I got

15 when I was at the Naval base in Subic Bay late

16 60's, early 70's, I don't know if the date is

17 on. I was stationed there. It was hand carved

18 by Philippines, they had a lot of craftsmen that

19 could carve like that. I don't recall where it

20 was, it wasn't something that I had out.

21 LOU SMIT: Who else would have

22 known about that, because there has been a lot

23 of things said about Subic Bay training center,

24 things of that nature? What does that say on

25 there by the way?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: It says Lieutenant

 2 J.P. Ramsey, PNBC, Subic, which is where I was

 3 stationed. USNR, I think.

 4 LOU SMIT: Does it say anything

 5 about Subic Bay Training Center, does it have

 6 initials on this?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: It's PWC, was the

 8 public works center.

 9 LOU SMIT: I see.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: U.S. Navy Public

11 Works Center, Subic Bay, Philippines. March

12 '68. October '70.

13 LOU SMIT: You have to speak a

14 little louder.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it says

16 March 1968 to October 1970, CEC, which is Civil

17 Engineer Corps.

18 LOU SMIT: Do you know where you

19 kept that at home?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: It might have been

21 in my closet, in my dressing room, which is here

22 (indicating) in these closets up on a shelf,

23 perhaps.

24 LOU SMIT: In the study area?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Or it could


 1 have been down here somewhere stored but --

 2 LOU SMIT: Not displayed?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so.

 4 It wasn't -- it wasn't a big deal.

 5 LOU SMIT: Okay. Okay I am going

 6 to show you some more photographs, and do you

 7 remember whether your children played baseball

 8 or bats or anything of that nature?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Used. I mean Burke

10 played baseball. We used to play, have batting

11 practice in the back yard.

12 LOU SMIT: Do you know if there was

13 one bat, two bats or three bats, do you have any

14 idea?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think Burke

16 had a bat, I think there was a little plastic

17 bat JonBenet would use, a small one. Used to

18 use little Whiffle balls. And.

19 LOU SMIT: I am going to show you a

20 picture, and again this is photograph number

21 434, it's a photograph of a bat and it appears

22 to be in the yard and this is a close-up of the

23 same bat and I would like to show both pictures

24 and it's for photograph 435.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that sort of


 1 looks like Burke's bat. I could probably tell

 2 exactly if it was or not, but looks familiar.

 3 It wouldn't be unusual for it to be lying out in

 4 the yard, because it just kind of just got

 5 dropped where it was left.

 6 LOU SMIT: I am going to show you

 7 another bat. It's photograph number 410. This

 8 was found in a different location and I will

 9 show you a picture of that bat.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, it's hard for me

11 to tell whether it's similar, but --

12 LOU SMIT: Do you know what area of

13 the house that is?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Looks like it -- I

15 know what it is. It's -- it is there it is

16 here -- it's probably right in here.

17 LOU SMIT: The area of the north

18 window?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.


21 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. This down

22 spout came down right there, right there -- no,

23 over here. Well, yeah, it was here. But that's

24 definitely in this area.

25 LOU SMIT: Do you ever recall


 1 seeing a bat there?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: No, that doesn't

 3 belong there. When we played baseball we played

 4 right out here, because that's the only place

 5 you could hit a ball, and that yard kind of

 6 stretched back this way. But you know, I don't

 7 know why there would be a bat there.

 8 LOU SMIT: I want to show you a

 9 photograph, a series of photographs from that

10 same area, and I would like you to take a look

11 at this, these photographs, they are numbered

12 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240 and 241.

13 These are photographs that were taken at the

14 crime scene of the area of the window, and

15 that's -- of the north bathroom window into the

16 home. And I would like to show these to John

17 and first of all, I would like to ask you a

18 couple of questions, if I can.

19 That particular window goes into

20 what room in the house, do you know?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I am not sure

22 which window.

23 LOU SMIT: Okay, the window, this

24 window located right there?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: That goes into the


 1 -- that's a -- that window goes into the half

 2 bath that's on the first floor.

 3 LOU SMIT: First floor? Okay. Now

 4 look?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Is this the window,

 6 that kind of looks like the window in the

 7 picture.

 8 LOU SMIT: Yes.

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: That goes into that

10 little bathroom in the basement that's at the

11 bottom of the stairs.

12 LOU SMIT: Okay. Now I am going to

13 show you a series of photographs and then you

14 can identify them. Just identify them by

15 picture number when you're looking at them and

16 you can start with one photo and just kind of go

17 all the way through. Let's start with the

18 lowest numbered photo first, that's number 235,

19 that would be fine.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, 235 is that same

21 window we have been talking about, the bath

22 would have been just to the right of this east

23 trough or downspout, rather. I don't see the

24 bath. There is no reason for that bath to be

25 there, we never run this side of house, you had


 1 to go, to get this, I mean there is like a big

 2 planting area here and there is not much there,

 3 it's an arrow and this side of the house we just

 4 never went on. Activity was from the front door

 5 walkway back to the backyard. ^ NOTE back to

 6 the.

 7 LOU SMIT: Okay.



10 LOU SMIT: Just go to the next

11 photograph, maybe you'll -- that's 236?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: The hose I think

13 there was a faucet over this somewhere, exterior

14 faucet, wouldn't be abnormal for the hose to be

15 there, although I don't -- looks like it --

16 LOU SMIT: Does that hose -- where

17 does that show in relationship --

18 JOHN RAMSEY: It's laying under,

19 under that window.

20 LOU SMIT: Okay.


22 LOU SMIT: All right.

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know what's

24 on the window there, I can't tell. It looks

25 like its smudged, however, the dirt is smudged.


 1 On the bottom sill. Like there is dirt, quite a

 2 bit of dirt moved in that sill area. And that

 3 -- and that's --

 4 LOU SMIT: Do you know of anyone

 5 that's ever went in that window?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: No, absolutely not.

 7 LOU SMIT: Could your children have

 8 played there and gone in that window?


10 LOU SMIT: Photograph number 236?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: The same window.

12 Just spring he had here and there. I don't know

13 what this little yellow thing is. The ivies

14 look a little beaten there for some reason. But

15 back in the corner. Okay.

16 LOU SMIT: Turn it over. 238 is

17 the next view. Again, that's just -- just

18 briefly describe it, if you would, and if you

19 see anything that's out of the ordinary, please

20 let us know.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I can't tell

22 what's on the windowsill in the right-hand

23 corner, but it almost like tape of some kind,

24 but I can't tell.

25 LOU SMIT: Here is another


 1 photograph.

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay. The pine

 3 straw, there is no pine straw up against the

 4 window at all in this sill, whether it's all the

 5 way around it, that seems strange. That was

 6 kind of a deserted area of the house, we never

 7 got back there to -- you know, it was just a

 8 side of the house we never got to. So that

 9 definitely looks odd.

10 LOU SMIT: Go to number 239.

11 JOHN RAMSEY: It's not very clear.

12 It's somebody has cleaned off that sill. In the

13 center of it. And it looks like -- looks more

14 like duct tape in that picture. I don't know

15 whether there is dust on it, I can't tell. But

16 that doesn't look at all normal. There is

17 actually no pine straw on the sill or in the

18 area in front of the sill. I don't see anything

19 else in this.

20 LOU SMIT: Okay, next one is 240.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Again, it's dirt has

22 been disturbed. Looks like the window is

23 calked, has been calked but not painted.

24 Although that paint is in the old paint scheme,

25 we didn't -- we had the house painted but it


 1 looks like the painter never painted that

 2 window. Because it's white and the windows were

 3 painted either gray or purple. So it looks like


 5 Like he just didn't get to that.

 6 Again, it's just, it's been disturbed.

 7 LOU SMIT: Okay. And then

 8 the last photograph, I think there is one

 9 more?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: That's what I thought

11 was tape, maybe chipped paint it look looks like

12 now. Maybe (INAUDIBLE) or something. Under the

13 light. It's definitely very disturbed in front

14 of the window. I can't tell what this little

15 item is here, right -- it's a dead bug or a

16 seed or something. That's all I see in this.

17 LOU SMIT: Now, have you

18 ever gone in that window or --


20 LOU SMIT: Could you say for

21 sure that that hadn't been there let's say

22 a week or two before?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I wasn't back

24 there, but highly, highly unlikely.

25 LOU SMIT: Okay. All right.


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: That was the side of

 2 the house nobody went to. It was in the

 3 wintertime. You know, when we went in the yard

 4 it was spring, summer, fall. No reason

 5 whatsoever to be in there in months. If ever.

 6 I never was around that window. I think -- I

 7 think I may have opened it from the inside once,

 8 I don't even remember that, but...

 9 LOU SMIT: I just have a

10 couple more photographs that I want to

11 show and then I will let Mike take over

12 because I know he is anxious. I am going

13 to show you what this photograph is for

14 the camera, is it -- this photograph was

15 taken off of a video that was taken at the

16 crime scene and so this is not a very good

17 picture. It's not numbered and it's just

18 a video paper reproduction of what was on

19 the video.

20 So I will show this to you,

21 Mr. Ramsey.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, those

23 are binoculars. Those look like my

24 binoculars .

25 LOU SMIT: What area of the house


 1 is that?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Kitchen --

 3 kitchen by the telephone. Right here, right

 4 there it looks like. (Indicating) (INAUDIBLE).

 5 Staplers, (INAUDIBLE). (Papers being rattled).

 6 I would say this looked like my binoculars which

 7 now are up at the lake I think.

 8 LOU SMIT: Do you have any

 9 idea how they got there, to that position?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I wasn't there. I

11 don't know. Yeah.

12 LOU SMIT: Now it seems,

13 sometimes the reason I am showing you

14 photographs or things like this is to

15 recollect, so you have recollection, and

16 also you may later on you may think hey, I

17 remember other things and that's why we

18 would like to be able to talk to you

19 again, because a lot of times these -- we

20 are bringing them right out of the dark

21 and you don't know all the answers. Okay.

22 Two more and I am done.


24 LOU SMIT: It's just that I

25 know we were limited a little bit on time,


 1 as far as different things. I would like

 2 to show you a couple of other photographs.

 3 Now these photographs again are

 4 unnumbered. And the photographs which are

 5 blowups of other photographs that we have,

 6 but what I would like to do is just show

 7 them to the camera here and it's just a

 8 letter and I will let Mr. Ramsey describe

 9 what this letter is, if I can.

10 And there is just two

11 different photographs and again these are

12 blowups and they are not very high quality

13 photographs, but sometimes all we have is

14 a videotape record to get these

15 photographs from, so we are trying to take

16 these photos from a videotape. And I will

17 just show you that, these two photos.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: These both the

19 same pretty much, I guess.

20 LOU SMIT: Yes, they are

21 pretty much the same. What do you see in

22 those photographs, Mr. Ramsey?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I am not really

24 sure. I guess it looks like Christmas, I am not

25 sure. Message that's kind of written in a fancy


 1 -- printed in fancy letter style.

 2 LOU SMIT: Have you ever seen

 3 a letter like that?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: It doesn't look

 5 familiar. I can't tell.

 6 LOU SMIT: I can tell you

 7 that --

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: It says

 9 somebody loves you all. Merry Christmas.

10 LOU SMIT: I can tell you

11 that these items were found in the trash

12 can in your daughter's room and it was

13 torn up.

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Do you know

15 what the word before "loves" is? Somebody

16 loves you all?

17 LOU SMIT: I am sure that

18 that has been looked at very closely. It

19 appears to be a Santa Claus letter.


21 SPEAKERS). Friend, enjoy your holidays,

22 Christmas (INAUDIBLE). Well, it doesn't

23 look like anything I have seen before.

24 LOU SMIT: Okay.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: And I don't


 1 know what it would be doing, you know,

 2 torn up in -- looks like it's torn down

 3 here, maybe. On the right side.

 4 LOU SMIT: You have no reason or no

 5 idea how it may have gotten there?


 7 LOU SMIT: Okay. Again these are

 8 two photographs for the camera. Okay. That's

 9 all I have for now. And if you think of

10 anything in regards to this, I would appreciate

11 it if you would -- (INAUDIBLE).

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Are we ready

13 to talk more about the pineapple later on?

14 LOU SMIT: If you would like

15 to, you can talk about it now.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: All right.

17 Bryan chastised me a bit on the way home,

18 he said like you were very adamant that

19 she wouldn't be eating pineapple. What do

20 you know for sure? I said I know we

21 didn't feed her pineapple. I know I

22 didn't feed her pineapple, I know Patsy

23 didn't feed her pineapple, because she

24 said she didn't.

25 And I was going on track of


 1 there is no way of a strange intruder

 2 could have gotten her down there without

 3 her screaming, kicking and hollering and

 4 fed her pineapple. But you asked I think

 5 if what if it was someone she knew, and

 6 that's conceivable. And --

 7 LOU SMIT: How would you

 8 explain it?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, at the risk of

10 just unfortunately after this case already

11 jumping to the conclusion there was apparently

12 one of JonBenet's friends or parents that day

13 said JonBenet told them that Santa Claus was

14 going to come visit her that night, last night,

15 not the night, I don't know if that's hearsay on

16 my part.

17 LOU SMIT: Where did you hear

18 it from?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I heard it

20 from our investigators. I think.

21 LOU SMIT: Okay?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay. So let's,

23 if that's true, and if the Santa Claus were

24 somebody she knew, she adored Santa Claus, they

25 had a special relationship. If he was the one,


 1 came into her room, as previously promised, she

 2 wouldn't have been alarmed, she would have gone

 3 downstairs with him, gone wherever he wanted. I

 4 don't know why he would have sat down and fed

 5 her pineapple, but it's possible.

 6 LOU SMIT: Do you have any

 7 ideas who this could be?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Bill McReynolds is

 9 the only Santa Claus I know. That she knows.

10 LOU SMIT: Didn't JonBenet

11 have other Santa Clauses?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: (Shaking head).

13 LOU SMIT: How about a fellow

14 named Cal?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't -- I don't

16 know.

17 LOU SMIT: How about a Santa

18 Claus that may have been on her note, on

19 the Christmas --

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think

21 there was one. No.

22 LOU SMIT: How about another

23 Santa Claus from a previous years?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, this Bill

25 McReynolds has done it for two or three years.


 1 Patsy would know, but I don't know if there is

 2 anyone else before that or not. I don't recall

 3 if there was. We had a guy at Atlanta, he used

 4 to come to our Christmases as Santa Claus and

 5 that's kind of how we got the tradition started,

 6 he would come to the Christmas party, kind of

 7 our office Christmas party at the house, that

 8 was, you know, five, six, seven years ago. She

 9 wasn't even there, frankly, so --

10 LOU SMIT: Do you understand

11 why I pushed you on this?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I say it hit

13 me like a ton of bricks when I thought about it.

14 I said that's very conceivable. Trying to

15 explain where she ate pineapple and there was

16 pineapple on the table. I don't know if that

17 bowl of pineapple on the table came -- I don't

18 remember seeing it that morning, but it was

19 chaos, so you know, there was food that was

20 gotten out, when people were there. They made

21 toast, I think, that was pretty much all

22 confined to the kitchen, the kitchen counter

23 area.

24 You know, it's possible that bowl

25 was brought out as part of the food for people


 1 that were there, in which case this -- that

 2 doesn't quite fit. But it's possible.

 3 LOU SMIT: John, you think

 4 about that, and I am sure you have

 5 investigators and stuff that will think

 6 about that too. Is it possible you might

 7 check, you know, any sources of that and

 8 we will do the same thing. But that's a

 9 question we had to ask. So if you come up

10 with anything on that, that is kind of an

11 important thing in the case, and I would

12 like to know it personally and I am sure

13 every investigator here would like to know

14 that.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well --

16 LOU SMIT: It's there?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: It's -- if I -- you

18 know, if I recall this little tidbit that her

19 mother said that JonBenet said Santa was going

20 to come visit her the evening of the 26th, she

21 never told us that. And if that's something

22 they would have, you know, secretly prearranged,

23 would have been very possible, because I think

24 JonBenet took Santa through the house, you know,

25 that night of the 23rd or was with him while he


 1 was there the year before, I remember that.

 2 If I came -- if I in fact -- if

 3 in fact that's who said that to her and in fact

 4 was said, and somebody she knew, and was

 5 expecting, particularly Santa Claus, she would

 6 hop right out of bed, you know, gone to the mall

 7 if he wanted to.

 8 LOU SMIT: You see that that

 9 pineapple is a clue, I mean that's in the

10 case.

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's -- you

12 know what I don't understand, I guess, to -- is

13 when she would have eaten, could she have eaten

14 it during the day, you know, grabbed a bite of

15 pineapple at our house or Fleet's house or how

16 much pineapple. So you guys would know that a

17 lot better than I. But if we say okay,

18 let's -- let's have the hypothesis that she ate

19 the pineapple sometime between 9 p.m. when she

20 came home and -- then and we found a bowl of

21 pineapple on the kitchen table, I know for a

22 fact that I didn't do, serve her pineapple, I

23 know for a fact that Patsy didn't because she

24 said she didn't. She wouldn't have gotten up

25 and just gone down and fixed herself a big bowl


 1 of pineapple in my opinion, she's never done

 2 that that I ever recall.

 3 She was dead tired. And she

 4 wouldn't do that. An intruder wouldn't have --

 5 say she could open her mouth, she would just

 6 scream bloody murder and we heard her, she sure

 7 wouldn't have sat there eating pineapple, but if

 8 it was somebody she knew I don't know why she

 9 would have sat down and ate pineapple, but

10 JonBenet liked pineapple, no question about it.

11 So that's good.

12 I am glad you brought that up too.

13 Did I say that? You know, we were suspicious of

14 McReynolds I guess in the beginning and he was

15 the only -- he came to the memorial service, a

16 good friend of mine who was there said that you

17 guys need to go back and look at that video,

18 because when Patsy went up to hug him, he pushed

19 her away.

20 And this Jim Hudson is the fellow's

21 name that said this. He said my brother's, I

22 don't know, in Orange County, been working with

23 pedophiles for 35 years and I described Santa

24 Claus to him and he said that's the guy. So

25 early on we were saying wow, well, Santa Claus,


 1 you know, acting so feeble and how could he have

 2 carried her down the stairs, and was the

 3 feebleness an act? Possibly. Was this all part

 4 of a grand play that they put together? He

 5 certainly showed up on the Today Show, you know,

 6 a week later right in the middle of it, I am

 7 Santa Claus from Boulder, then he split for

 8 Europe. Obviously wasn't too feeble.

 9 And then he -- he certainly fits

10 -- one of the things when I was hypothesizing

11 with these guys early on about who could have

12 done it, they said look, we are not going to do

13 the same thing that the Boulder police have

14 done, you know, you're right. But if I am

15 working this hypothesis through, he fits the box

16 that John Douglas drew for it, somebody we knew,

17 somebody who was in the house, somebody I think

18 that would have been jealous of people that had

19 assets, I think it's not a bad thing, I never

20 said a harsh word to him, but he would have been

21 very jealous, apparently didn't have two nickels

22 to rub together.

23 So he and JonBenet had a kind of a

24 special little bond. She worshipped him as

25 Santa Claus and apparently from what we


 1 understand the guy is, if not a pedophile, he's

 2 a frequent visitor to pornography shops.

 3 LOU SMIT: Have you investigated

 4 that?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: We have gotten

 6 information to that effect. I don't know how

 7 much we looked at it, but --

 8 LOU SMIT: Are you sure,

 9 absolutely couldn't have?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely. We

11 have some letters if him. We have a tape from

12 him that hopefully you guys have. If you guys

13 don't have it, I couldn't listen to it but it

14 was a tribute to JonBenet or something like

15 that. And apparently it starts up and it says

16 you left Santa Claus and went, you know, doing

17 all those fancy things and you came back to

18 Santa Claus, our guy said it was very weird. He

19 wrote me a letter saying that he carved

20 JonBenet's name in a heart, it had the name of

21 three other little girls that died early.

22 I mean I couldn't start saying,

23 okay, that's the guy. But that's premature, but

24 that would be in my mind explain how, if we said

25 JonBenet ate pineapple between 9 p.m. when she


 1 went to bed and when we found her, that is the

 2 only way that's plausible to me that she could

 3 have eaten. Is someone she knew and trusted and

 4 said let's go downstairs, there is a surprise.

 5 He might have sat there with pineapple and a

 6 glass of tea, I don't know, but --

 7 LOU SMIT: Those are things that

 8 have to be answered.

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. So say it

10 could be like -- last night I thought about it

11 all night but.

12 LOU SMIT: Mike, I am finished for

13 a while and I will take a break.

14 MIKE KANE: I want to go back to

15 how we started this all off, and once again

16 there are so many possibilities here, you must

17 imagine that we are sitting in court, and Santa

18 Claus is sitting -- it's almost writing a

19 movie, prosecuting Santa Claus, but let's

20 imagine that. Where do you think his lawyers

21 are going to go?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I guess it depends

23 on what other kind of evidence we have. And I

24 don't know other than what these clues have been

25 left around, I don't know what evidence, you


 1 know, hard unexplained evidence we have, that

 2 could possibly link to him, fingerprints, DNA,

 3 handwriting samples, both for he and his wife,

 4 one as writer --


 6 MIKE KANE: Where do you think his

 7 defense attorneys would go in defending him?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I think based on

 9 the, you know, public crucifixion or persecution

10 that's been made on us, they would probably look

11 at our excuses.


13 MIKE KANE: More than anybody that

14 a little bit of evidence, a lot of it not even

15 accurate, people would rush to judgment and we

16 understand that would be the natural way that

17 anybody sitting in that defense chair would go.

18 And I really hope you appreciate the fact that

19 when I ask you a lot of these questions that I

20 have been asking, I am not making any judgments.

21 Lou is certainly not making any judgments, these

22 are questions that some day hopefully, hopefully

23 will get asked, because when I say hopefully,

24 that means it's going to be because we are in

25 trial against somebody. Do you appreciate that?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Very much do.

 2 MIKE KANE: Okay. Let me go over

 3 some -- some things. Security type issues.

 4 You mentioned that Lockheed didn't really have

 5 very much in the way unless you were at a

 6 certain level, $300 alarm system, something like

 7 that. Did they ever give you any kind of

 8 training?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: None whatsoever.

10 MIKE KANE: Did they have, I

11 imagine Lockheed did have I would imagine have

12 volumes and volumes of security procedures and

13 things likes that?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I would sure have

15 thought so. I think with large companies like

16 that, at least based on my experience, sort of

17 lacking is their visible executives done and say

18 look, here is the things you need to be aware

19 of. The freak's out there. You could be a

20 target, you know.

21 There is none of that. I don't

22 know, I have never been associated with any

23 company that did that. I think would be a great

24 business for somebody to do, because it's

25 desperately needed.


 1 MIKE KANE: So they never talked to

 2 you about for example travel abroad, what to do,

 3 how to handle yourself, how to stay out of

 4 trouble if you get in trouble?


 6 MIKE KANE: Nothing like that? Did

 7 you have any self-defense training?


 9 MIKE KANE: In the military they

10 taught you how to shoot a 45?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Right, that was about

12 it.

13 MIKE KANE: Anything beyond that?


15 MIKE KANE: Did you have security

16 clearances? Lockheed I am sure --


18 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't have with

19 Lockheed because we weren't really in that part

20 of the business. I had a top secret clearance

21 when I was in the Navy.

22 MIKE KANE: You never got like a

23 DOD clearance as part of your association

24 with --

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Not recently, I had


 1 a clearance, no. This is probably ten or 15

 2 years ago, to go into nuclear plants, I forget

 3 how that was given to me, but --

 4 MIKE KANE: Um --

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: As far as Lockheed.

 6 MIKE KANE: You're not aware of any

 7 threats to your company, I think you have been

 8 asked that.


10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, once there have

11 been passed on I mean, been typically from

12 employees that have been discharged, Jeff Meric

13 being the most notable. Other than that.

14 MIKE KANE: Hook lead --

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean one of the

16 things I thought about -- you know, we extend

17 credit to people, and we have had a lot -- well,

18 I shouldn't say a lot. We have had number of

19 people that we have either restricted credit or

20 denied credit. That would come unglued, it's

21 like saying your Visa card is full. Those

22 people just go crazy and they always go right to

23 the top. I want to talk to John Ramsey.

24 And I talk to them occasionally,

25 maybe once every month I get a call like that,


 1 and my response is I never make credit

 2 decisions. You know, I would be glad to put you

 3 in touch with the top people that do, and I stay

 4 totally out of that. Because that's not my job,

 5 I am not good at it. So --

 6 MIKE KANE: Had Lockheed sent any

 7 notices out to -- to your company about

 8 security issues or what not?


10 MIKE KANE: Newsletters?


12 MIKE KANE: All right. The, I know

13 there was an alarm in the house, was it in that

14 house before you moved in, did you have it

15 installed?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was in. When

17 we moved in. Obviously we had it updated and we

18 furnished the house but --

19 MIKE KANE: What was do done to it

20 to update it?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I think there

22 were some garage, I think the garage door was

23 reworked a bit. In back of the garage we had a

24 thing to the -- see, there was a door to the

25 garage right there, this used to just be a


 1 closet, so we made an entry, that door out,

 2 those kind of little adjustments, but changed

 3 the window or the door, but that was it.

 4 MIKE KANE: The security system had

 5 motion detectors inside?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Some I think

 7 on the first floor, maybe the second.

 8 MIKE KANE: How about the doors, do

 9 you know were those --

10 JOHN RAMSEY: As far as I know they

11 were all --

12 MIKE KANE: How about in the yard,

13 did you have motion detector lights that would

14 come on when you pull into the back?


16 MIKE KANE: Did you ever have it

17 serviced while you were there, the security

18 system?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had it, I

20 mean when we finally got the house done, I think

21 they -- we had the alarm company out once or

22 twice, or whatever, during that construction

23 process. We had maybe on two occasions water

24 leakage that caused, I think it was -- let me

25 think. One of the sensors, maybe on the second


 1 floor hall, I can't remember exactly, but maybe

 2 the sensor back here, might have been up here,

 3 but we had water leakage in this area when the

 4 squirrels chewed the roof open and water got in

 5 the little box that was on the ceiling and it

 6 just started, just rained continuously. We had

 7 that replaced, I think.

 8 MIKE KANE: What ran?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Just the little

10 you know, the -- (INAUDIBLE). I don't think it

11 set off the alarm. Just a whine in the sensor.

12 MIKE KANE: You had a smoke

13 detector?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, maybe it was a

15 smoke detector, maybe that's what it was.

16 MIKE KANE: What was the company,

17 do you remember?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Safe alarms, I

19 believe.

20 MIKE KANE: In Boulder?


22 MIKE KANE: There were various

23 components of that alarm system, there was I

24 guess the intruder component, which would be the

25 motion detectors and that kind of stuff. There


 1 was also fire?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 3 MIKE KANE: Any other --

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I mean as far

 5 as I know, it was monitored. The main reason, I

 6 mean I was most concerned about fire, as far as

 7 the alarm system.

 8 MIKE KANE: And they monitored it

 9 there from the headquarters and they had call?


11 MIKE KANE: Okay. Um, I am going

12 to ask you some questions about you, okay. How

13 would you just describe yourself in a paragraph?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, um, fairly

15 passive. Sensitive. Not extremely well-spoken.

16 Decent work ethic. Loves his children. Loves

17 his family. Likes free time. And is growing

18 spiritually.

19 MIKE KANE: How would others

20 describe you?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, quiet, um,

22 that's always how I am described, is quiet.

23 Nice guy. Gentle. Hard to get to know.

24 Doesn't talk a lot.

25 MIKE KANE: You wonder why I ask a


 1 lot of questions?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Ha, ha, yeah.

 3 MIKE KANE: Did your parents get

 4 along when you were growing up?


 6 MIKE KANE: And you came from

 7 Nebraska to Michigan?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. From Nebraska

 9 to Michigan and then kind of where I grew up,

10 from junior high school on.

11 MIKE KANE: Was there a conflict in

12 your house growing up?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, none whatsoever.

14 MIKE KANE: You had a brother I

15 know?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

17 MIKE KANE: Any other siblings?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Just one brother.

19 MIKE KANE: That's Jeff?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

21 MIKE KANE: Were you close to him?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: We are very close

23 now. Jeff was my little brother and I am sure I

24 taunted him to death when we were growing up,

25 but yeah, we are close.


 1 MIKE KANE: Was there ever a

 2 history of psychiatric problems in your family?


 4 MIKE KANE: Alcohol?


 6 MIKE KANE: Before JonBenet's death

 7 were you ever treated for a psychiatric problem?


 9 MIKE KANE: Did you ever get

10 counseling through your divorce?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: We talked,

12 together talked to a marriage counselor. But

13 after that, no.

14 MIKE KANE: What was your, what was

15 your socioeconomic status growing up I mean.


17 JOHN RAMSEY: We thought we were

18 better off than most, but looking back on we

19 were solidly middle class. My dad worked for

20 the state of Michigan, the state of Nebraska, he

21 was a great man, but didn't make a lot of money,

22 but we thought we had lot, you know, we felt

23 very -- I think most kids tend to feel they are

24 better off than most people. We felt that way,

25 but looking back on we go back to our old house


 1 sometime, and but we felt comfortable.

 2 MIKE KANE: What was the most

 3 traumatic thing as a kid that you can remember,

 4 growing up?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I have never really

 6 thought about that. I mean I can remember when

 7 my mother's brother died, I was just young, I

 8 was maybe six or eight years old, um, um, I

 9 remember when a friend of our's son was, who I

10 kind of knew as a, kind of growing up at least

11 to that point to be the, we were still living in

12 Nebraska so I would have been in grade school,

13 was killed. I can remember being sad about

14 that. He died in a skiing accident.

15 When I was in high school, I had a

16 girlfriend who gave me the boot. That was kind

17 of hard. You know, when I got in college, I was

18 president of my fraternity and we had two

19 fraternity brothers that were killed in a car

20 accident, that was very tough. So you know.

21 MIKE KANE: Well, I am not

22 suggesting you ever got out of hand as a kid,

23 but if you did, how would your father deal with

24 that?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I can specifically


 1 remember, and I must have been, could have been

 2 7, eight years old probably, there was a new

 3 house being built and I and a friend of mine

 4 went over and threw bricks through the basement

 5 window. That was so much fun, we broke all the

 6 windows in the house. I don't remember feeling

 7 like that was bad, it just was, we did it. We

 8 were being mischievous and my dad made me rake

 9 the yard for about a month after that.

10 MIKE KANE: Was there any corporal

11 discipline?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: None that I

13 remember, no.

14 MIKE KANE: Has Mrs. Ramsey ever

15 talked about these things growing up, things

16 that were traumatic to her --


18 JOHN RAMSEY: No, she had a nice

19 childhood.

20 MIKE KANE: Did she ever talk about

21 how her parents disciplined her?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: All I remember her

23 saying is that her dad is also a very quiet

24 person. All he had to do was say something

25 stern you know, to them, and they melted. That


 1 was their discipline, but it was very adequate.

 2 MIKE KANE: We talked about your,

 3 you know, your religious beliefs now, how about

 4 growing up?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we were raised

 6 Episcopal. My mother took me to the (INAUDIBLE)

 7 holy trinity (INAUDIBLE) church, I was an

 8 acolyte. When I got older I went to the church

 9 that my friends did, which was a Methodist

10 church. You know, I think that for part of my

11 life, you first went to church because your

12 parents made you, and then you kind of went to

13 church because you figured it might be a mistake

14 not to. And your spiritual development, at

15 least for me, has been a slow process.

16 MIKE KANE: And I don't know if I

17 heard you say it or I read it, went to Michigan

18 state undergrad.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

20 MIKE KANE: And did you go to

21 graduate school?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

23 MIKE KANE: Where was that?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Michigan State

25 also.


 1 MIKE KANE: What was that in?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Undergraduate was

 3 in electrical engineering and graduate school

 4 was in marketing, business marketing.

 5 MIKE KANE: Did you get an MBA?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 7 MIKE KANE: Okay. What did you

 8 like about school?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, we had a lot of

10 fun, I mean that was part of it. I mean, we had

11 a lot of laughs. I didn't really settle down,

12 become a good student until my second year of my

13 program. I think as I recall I kind of

14 graduated by the skin of my teeth, in

15 undergraduate school. But I mean we had

16 football games, and parties and campus life.

17 MIKE KANE: What are the things you

18 didn't like?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, you know, I mean

20 I am sure I didn't like to study. I mean I

21 didn't -- he was -- I was in a hard

22 curriculum. You know. I don't remember

23 anything I didn't like, other than, you know, I

24 wasn't a totally absorbed student. I was a kid

25 that was there kind of having fun and realized


 1 he had to stay in school to graduate, and that

 2 conflicted a bit with the social part. I made

 3 it through.

 4 MIKE KANE: What year did you go to

 5 Michigan State?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I graduated in 1966.

 7 MIKE KANE: The year of the



10 stood in line all night for those tickets.

11 MIKE KANE: I remember that well.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes. It's amazing.

13 That game is probably more memorable -- that's

14 memorable as Kennedy's.

15 MIKE KANE: That's size of the

16 side --


18 VOICE: Don't hold it against him.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I wish you hadn't

20 told me that.



23 MIKE KANE: The, you said yesterday

24 about -- Lou asked you about Gloria Williams and

25 you said that didn't break up your marriage, but


 1 you said your marriage probably wasn't on a

 2 solid foundation to begin with. What did you

 3 mean by that?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Just in

 5 retrospect, you know, I think something I also

 6 thought about after we were divorced, but Cindy

 7 is a very, she is a very wonderful person, she

 8 was a wonderful mother for the kids. She was

 9 kind, came from a great family. You know, was a

10 perfect wife and we were married for ten and a

11 half years, but we weren't each other's best

12 friend. We were around friends once and they

13 were -- obviously, they were married, and they

14 -- they just laughed at each other's jokes, you

15 could just tell they were buddies. And Cindy

16 was more my mother.

17 I mean when I got out of college, I

18 was really looking for a mother replacement. As

19 I analyzed it myself, looking back on it. If I

20 told a joke if it was at all off color, I

21 probably got chewed out. So it was that kind of

22 a mother discipline relationship, that we never

23 really became best friends, and so there was

24 just that element missing, I think, in our

25 marriage. And it was kind of a -- as I did, as


 1 I thought about a lot, because it's not that she

 2 is not a wonderful person, a wonderful mother

 3 and has been very supportive of me in all this,

 4 we just lacked that part of the marriage.

 5 MIKE KANE: How did you end up in

 6 the Navy?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I, my dad was a

 8 World War II pilot, said if you got to go in the

 9 military, go in the Navy, because I used to risk

10 by life flying jelly to the Navy in Burma.

11 Silverware, we had plastic forks, whatever, that

12 was kind of a frankly kind of --

13 MIKE KANE: You didn't take up

14 flying?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't, I was --

16 it's one of my few regrets in life that I

17 didn't. But I looked into it. Unfortunately, I

18 talked to a recruiter and the guy totally blew

19 it. I was there how do I learn to a pilot. We

20 didn't sign you up to be a pilot, but you are

21 going to be a manager, you are going to run

22 people, you are going to work with that. I want

23 to be a pilot.

24 So I turned around, walked away,

25 and that was it and never pursued, but that was


 1 a 6 and a half year commitment which was the

 2 other factor for me. At 22 years of age, that's

 3 a lifetime. So I mean, so I didn't do it but I

 4 always kind of wished I had.

 5 MIKE KANE: You stayed there for

 6 quite a while?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I stayed in for what

 8 I was obligated for, which was 3 and a half

 9 years, approximately and then I stayed in the

10 reserves for a while. Six or eight years.

11 MIKE KANE: How was your health

12 going?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: It's fine.

14 MIKE KANE: You have any

15 hospitalizations?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: As a kid? No.

17 MIKE KANE: Or at any time.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I used to have

19 allergy problems and those used to drive me

20 crazy, when I was in high school or in college.

21 It really through a good part of my adult life.

22 So I was always kind of a constant (INAUDIBLE).

23 I think the only time I have been hospitalized

24 for an illness was I had a viral infection

25 called pericarditis, which, I don't know, four


 1 or five years ago, and I think I was in the

 2 hospital for a day or two.

 3 MIKE KANE: Where was that?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Here in Boulder.

 5 MIKE KANE: Boulder Community?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

 7 MIKE KANE: I am sorry?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: But other than

 9 that, I think that was the only time I have ever

10 stayed in the hospital that I can remember.

11 MIKE KANE: Have you ever lost

12 consciousness or anything like that?


14 MIKE KANE: What kind of

15 medications, were there anything you regularly

16 took?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, for my

18 allergies, what finally worked for me was a

19 nasal spray that was cortisone based and that

20 kind of came out and I was able to use it, it

21 really helped. And I used that off and on for

22 several years. Other than that, no.

23 MIKE KANE: You talked about now

24 taking Prozac and using Paxil?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Clonopin.


 1 MIKE KANE: Clonopin?


 3 MIKE KANE: Any other prescription

 4 medicines that you were on other than --

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Antibiotics

 6 occasionally or something like that, but no.

 7 MIKE KANE: How about, I know you

 8 took Melatonin. Did you take that on a regular

 9 basis?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I would get

11 treated with it, because it was interesting from

12 some of the -- I mean, back this was you know 2,

13 3 years ago, they were, it was -- did

14 everything for you, made your hair grow, made

15 you sleep, had all these wonderful claims plus

16 there is no side effects, you can buy it

17 over-the-counter, hey great, I will give that a

18 shot. But it also was helpful in jet lag.

19 And so and I even, if I were, you

20 know, tense or things on my mind, it did help me

21 sleep. And but I wasn't religious about taking

22 it but for a period of time there I kind of

23 tried it and experimented a little bit with

24 dosages and I think I used it and I still do for

25 going overseas, for jet lag.


 1 MIKE KANE: How often did you use

 2 it, to sleep?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, sporadically,

 4 but I mean when I first got interested in it I

 5 probably used it every night for a few weeks and

 6 then I kind of got out of the habit. But you

 7 know, once to three times a week, probably.

 8 MIKE KANE: And were these on

 9 particular occasions that you would use it?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Just, if, as I

11 say, if I had things on my mind or I just want

12 to sleep well or you know, just it would give

13 you a little bit of a peaceful sleep.

14 MIKE KANE: Normally would you not

15 have it or just on certain times?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I usually slept

17 pretty well. I always woke up early. But I

18 didn't have any particular problems sleeping.

19 Unless I had something on my mind.

20 MIKE KANE: Okay. Yesterday, you

21 mentioned your personal physician, I can't

22 remember --

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Hughey.


25 that's the person you saw, whenever you needed


 1 to go to the doctor?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

 3 MIKE KANE: Any other physicians --


 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I had a nose

 6 doctor that did some nose surgery when I was,

 7 had some polyps in my nose that were

 8 contributing to the allergy problem and he kind

 9 of went in and did a Roto-Rooter job on the

10 nose, I don't know what they call it, but --



13 JOHN RAMSEY: It was here in

14 Boulder. And I don't remember his name. Ear,

15 nose and throat guy, I could probably figure it

16 out if I looked in a phone book, but --

17 MIKE KANE: Any other restrictions

18 on your flight medical?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Other than I have

20 to have reading glasses, that's the only --

21 MIKE KANE: That night of the 26th,

22 you took Melatonin?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

24 MIKE KANE: Were you uptight at

25 all, anything like that?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I remember.

 2 I just remember thinking I want to get a good

 3 night's sleep because we are going to get up

 4 early in the morning to fly, I just want to be

 5 rested.

 6 MIKE KANE: What attracted you to

 7 Patsy?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: We met through

 9 some friends, she was staying with some friends

10 and I knew the husband who was in (INAUDIBLE)

11 business and Patsy was, I don't know, 22, 23, he

12 was 34, 35, and she had just gotten out of

13 college, and I had met her, but had just kind of

14 -- she didn't really catch my eye or it wasn't

15 an instant affection, but we would go down, I

16 would go down there for dinner and we would play

17 cards or something just as a group, and I really

18 started to admire her wit and just her as a

19 person. And thought she was, for a 23 year old

20 she is got lot on the ball, and then asked her

21 out and I just felt very, very right and --

22 MIKE KANE: And how long did you

23 date before you got engaged?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, boy, I don't

25 know. A year, probably or so. (INAUDIBLE).


 1 MIKE KANE: What year did you get

 2 married?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: 19 -- I got

 4 married in November of 1980.

 5 MIKE KANE: And before you got

 6 married, how long had you manned -- how long

 7 were you engaged?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, well, again, I

 9 don't remember for sure but it would probably

10 have been six or eight months I suppose.

11 MIKE KANE: Did you have any

12 conflicts at all during the time you were

13 dating, until the time you were married?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: With Patsy?

15 MIKE KANE: Yeah.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: No, not really.

17 No. No.

18 MIKE KANE: Did you take her home

19 to the family?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, yeah.

21 MIKE KANE: Were they still in West

22 Virginia then?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum. Yep, I

24 remember that, and she said her dad, I was the

25 only boyfriend she's ever had that he talked to.


 1 I was flattered by that.

 2 MIKE KANE: So you passed that

 3 test?


 5 MIKE KANE: What kind of hobbies

 6 and outside interests do you have?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I like flying is

 8 probably my biggest hobby, interest. I enjoy

 9 doing that the most of anything extracurricular

10 I do. I got into sailing for a few years, I

11 didn't have a passion about it.

12 MIKE KANE: Photography, do you do

13 any of that?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I like boating,

15 water, to be around the water.

16 MIKE KANE: Do you read any

17 magazines on a regular basis?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I get you know

19 the ALP magazine, probably get Sailing, Sailing

20 World. That's really about it. Occasionally I

21 pick up a yachting magazine or something like

22 that, just on boats.

23 MIKE KANE: Did you have any


25 LOU SMIT: Just, on the sailing I


 1 was going to ask (INAUDIBLE).

 2 MIKE KANE: Go ahead.

 3 LOU SMIT: We can just go through

 4 the -- John, I would like to show you a couple

 5 of items here. Again, I will show this to the

 6 camera. This is a cord, I would like you to

 7 take a look at that, and --

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well yeah, that's

 9 similar to as I recall the cord --

10 LOU SMIT: On --

11 JOHN RAMSEY: On JonBenet. And

12 it looks like (INAUDIBLE), but I remember

13 briefly.

14 LOU SMIT: Have you ever

15 seen cord like that before?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-uh. Well like

17 this no, this looks like drawstring cord that

18 you find in a coat jacket. There was some

19 laying on a driveway up in Michigan, some

20 drawstring cord, and it was --

21 LOU SMIT: Is that like the cord?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: It's not quite this

23 fat. It's a little thinner. But it's this

24 woven.



 1 LOU SMIT: Have you witnessed what

 2 it says on there, if you would, just a little

 3 bit there?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Ten suppose, uses.

 5 LOU SMIT: Would you have

 6 ever used cord like that on your boat or

 7 would anyone else that you know of used

 8 that type of thing?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I don't think

10 -- no, this is a little too flat for what you

11 use on a boat. Of course, most of the lines are

12 a lot bigger, if they were woven, they were, you

13 know, 3 inch to a half inch diameter, round. We

14 did put a, one of the requirements for doing

15 this long distance race, which you had to fasten

16 the wooden planks that cover the hatch by a cord

17 to the boat, so in case you top, you got upset

18 or whatever it is, you wouldn't lose those hatch

19 covers, and there was a cord that Fleet put on

20 the boat for that, which -- but it wasn't flat

21 like that. It might have been a woven cord that

22 was more round. So you know I --

23 LOU SMIT: Do you know anyone that

24 in the camping or tenting or anything that would

25 have that kind of cord?


 1 Any of your personal friends that

 2 may be into that, anybody at Access Graphics


 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, not that really

 5 heavily into it. Well, yeah, the only friends

 6 we had that were really into camping were Bob

 7 and -- his son's name who is a friend of

 8 Burke's, is Woody. They moved to Seattle, they

 9 got divorced. Patsy would remember the name,

10 but I can't remember the last name. They were

11 really into camping. A lot. They also he was

12 also a big sailer.

13 LOU SMIT: Could you give us

14 --


16 they still in Boulder?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: No, they are in

18 Seattle.

19 MIKE KANE: In Boulder Christmas of

20 '96?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, they moved to

22 Seattle, I want to say -- that's a good

23 question. They moved to Seattle, yeah, it might

24 have been before then. No, I don't -- I will

25 find out. Patsy would know exactly.


 1 LOU SMIT: Could you find

 2 that out?

 3 VOICE: Yes, sir.

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Woody, Bob and

 5 I forget her name.

 6 VOICE: We can maybe do that

 7 today?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy would know.

 9 LOU SMIT: Okay. Anything,

10 any other ideas on it, did you ever see

11 anything like that in your house or in

12 your boat or in your plane or in your

13 hangars or anything like that?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I recall.

15 No.

16 MIKE KANE: Is this similar to or

17 identical to the cord?

18 LOU SMIT: Yes, it is.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Identical.

20 LOU SMIT: As close as we can

21 get.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Interesting.

23 LOU SMIT: See, that's

24 another clue in this case. That's why

25 it's so important that if you have any


 1 ideas of someone who could have had

 2 something like that or any indications or

 3 you could have seen?


 5 MIKE KANE: Someone was in your

 6 house, someone could have had access to it that

 7 came in and if it's an intruder that would tell

 8 us something about the intruder, they didn't

 9 bring that so --

10 JOHN RAMSEY: No, no, I don't ever

11 remember having anything like this. You know,

12 if I look at friends that -- I mean some people

13 buy rope and they just buy twine and that's it.

14 This is more of a -- you know, somebody used

15 this as more of a -- this is a little more

16 refined than just buying clothes line rope, for

17 whatever the uses were.

18 Um, you know, certainly Fleet White

19 was knew a lot about lines, mostly associated

20 with sailboats. He knew a lot about that. I

21 don't know if the Walkers camped or not, Stuart

22 and Roxie Walker, I don't recall. Probably not.

23 LOU SMIT: I am sure that

24 you probably write down and so forth maybe

25 find some similar, maybe you will be able


 1 to put more and more together on this,

 2 okay?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

 4 LOU SMIT: But remember any -- the

 5 person left behind something, that's why all

 6 these little things that the killer left behind,

 7 we have to try to explain, we have to try to

 8 find it. We pretty well determined what kind it

 9 was, but we still have to find a person that has

10 something like this. That's why, John, we have

11 to look at you, if you ever had anything like

12 that on your boat or anywhere and that's why --

13 everybody thinks that you might think they are

14 getting up on that but they have to find this

15 out.

16 For instance, if you said you have

17 never seen this and somebody said hey, he bought

18 a whole bunch of this stuff at one time, that's

19 why we have to check into your background and

20 that's why a lot of this investigation is going

21 on. A lot of times you think well, they are

22 trying to pin it on me, but really we are trying

23 to eliminate you too. If we can't find it that

24 just goes toward seeking the truth also.

25 MIKE KANE: And you understand


 1 that you know, I think we all believe in here

 2 that you know the truth will set you free and

 3 the worst thing, if you know let's take the

 4 (inaudible) sitting in the defense room and they

 5 find out that something that just seemed

 6 innocuous to you was not true, that's --


 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well --

 9 MIKE KANE: To raise that

10 reasonable doubt.

11 JOHN RAMSEY: I can absolutely

12 promise you that we, I am telling nothing but

13 the truth, to the best of my ability.

14 MIKE KANE: And every question we

15 ask, I know that we all have a tendency

16 sometimes to think that's not important or geez,

17 I don't really want to say that because it's

18 embarrassing or something like that, but those

19 are the kinds of things that come back and haunt

20 us later on.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: We are way beyond the

22 point of being embarrassed by anything. Our

23 whole lives is out in public, most of the stuff

24 isn't even true so I am certainly not a perfect

25 individual and there is things I am not proud of


 1 in my life.

 2 VOICE: I assure you we take the

 3 point and we know that you're dealing with.

 4 LOU SMIT: I am going to show you

 5 another item. It's a roll of tape.

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: This looks certainly

 7 similar in color but it looks much wider than I

 8 recall. I tried to remember, I would say that

 9 it must be that kind of width.

10 LOU SMIT: What would you measure

11 that to be?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Like an inch maybe.

13 LOU SMIT: An inch wide?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: That I am saying is

15 the width that I remember.

16 LOU SMIT: Okay. Color the

17 same?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: It's close.

19 LOU SMIT: What about the

20 texture and the looks of it?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember the

22 texture, I mean it looks close. It's not too

23 far off.

24 LOU SMIT: Would you look at

25 the back (INAUDIBLE)?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Gee, I am

 2 having such a hard time but what I

 3 remember about it was it, it was cut

 4 squarely, it wasn't torn or wasn't too

 5 much. It was just a very properly cut

 6 piece of tape.

 7 LOU SMIT: That was your

 8 impression?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: That was my -- as I

10 remember it. But it was black, it was a bit

11 narrower than that.

12 LOU SMIT: Was it light in

13 that room or how could you tell?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know.

15 It just seemed light enough. And I don't

16 remember if I turned on the light or not, but.

17 LOU SMIT: I mean did you

18 look at the ends?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: No, just an

20 impression, you know, and as I thought about it

21 later, that's what I remember.

22 LOU SMIT: Now John, I know

23 we are touching right back on a very

24 delicate spot, but was this tape wrapped

25 around anywhere, was it stuck down?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was very firm

 2 across her lips.

 3 LOU SMIT: And you recall

 4 that?


 6 LOU SMIT: And why did you have to

 7 work at it to get this tape off?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I mean just came

 9 off, it wasn't loose, it was tight enough.

10 LOU SMIT: Fine, we won't go

11 into any more of that. But have you ever

12 seen anything like this before? This is

13 really critical, because our -- the

14 killer left that behind, there is no doubt

15 about that. It's a clue that we have.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Is this the size

17 of the tape?

18 MIKE KANE: Yes, it is.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I thought it was

20 narrower.

21 VOICE: When you say he left that

22 behind, do you mean he left a roll behind?

23 LOU SMIT: No, he left the

24 tape behind.

25 VOICE: Just the tape that we


 1 find that was on her mouth?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, if I were to

 3 speculate that's something that Fleet White

 4 would have, which --

 5 LOU SMIT: And why would you

 6 say that, have you ever seen anything like

 7 that?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Maybe, you know,

 9 I can't -- I can't remember for sure, but Fleet

10 had -- when we got, went up to get our boat

11 ready for this Mackinaw, Mackinaw race was a

12 300-mile race, Fleet had some special tapes, I

13 remember white tape. And possibly I remember

14 black duct tape. The only kind of duct tape I

15 have ever seen a gray.

16 LOU SMIT: Did you have gray

17 duct tape in your house?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Certainly

19 did. Gray duct tape.

20 LOU SMIT: Do you know where

21 you would have purchased it or got it or

22 anything about it?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, no. Um, I mean

24 I don't know that I ever used it but -- I know

25 I have used gray duct tape before.


 1 LOU SMIT: Do you believe you

 2 used it in your house here or where?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I have used

 4 it up at the lake. So it doesn't -- some duct

 5 work there, you know, I don't know that I have

 6 ever used it in Boulder. Because we had steam

 7 heat, steam and hot water heat.


 9 have to try to find that someone that has

10 that. How often have you seen black duct

11 tape?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall that

13 I ever have. But if I try to imagine back,

14 (INAUDIBLE) see this, this feels like, see you

15 never use duct tape on a boat. It's too --

16 it's got too much adhesive. It would just leave

17 a big mess. I think what I would be curious

18 about is this adhesive, less adhesive than you

19 find on standard duct tape, which kind of feels

20 like it is, but I haven't looked at duct tape in

21 a while.

22 But if -- if it, I mean if it is

23 more specialized than just plain old duct tape,

24 you know, one of the purposes would be to so it

25 didn't leave such a mess, this duct tape.


 1 LOU SMIT: Any friend, any of

 2 your friends, any of the people at Access

 3 Graphics, anybody that -- if we are

 4 hunting for a killer here we have to find

 5 somebody that has that, and that's where

 6 questions have to be asked. Who would

 7 have something like that? Somebody has

 8 seen somebody with that? That's why we to

 9 check all this out with you. Did anybody

10 see you with this type of duct tape? We

11 have to eliminate that.

12 We just ask you, you say no,

13 there is no way that we know that, that's

14 why we have to check these records and we

15 have to check everything, if we find that

16 you have it that's not going to look too

17 good. If we find that you don't have it,

18 that's going to look a lot better.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recognize

20 it. I don't think I have anything like this.

21 MIKE KANE: Okay.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Is this -- can

23 you buy this stuff in a hardware store?

24 LOU SMIT: I think that they

25 checked all over the place, to find


 1 various areas, and they have a list of

 2 different places I am sure that sell this.

 3 But again, can you remember buying any

 4 duct tape anywhere in town?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I, I can't certainly

 6 can't remember, and if I would have bought duct

 7 tape I think it would have been gray.

 8 MIKE KANE: How about Patsy?


10 MIKE KANE: Project?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's possible.

12 MIKE KANE: Christmas decorating I

13 mean --

14 JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible.

15 You know she, we had lots of glue and Scotch

16 tape and stuff like that around. Packing tape,

17 clear packing tape. Brown packing tape.

18 But -- the only time I ever remember duct tape

19 was gray duct tape. And it's more fibery, it's

20 got more fibers in it. It's tougher. It's also

21 got a little more adhesive on it.

22 LOU SMIT: Before we take a

23 break, Mike, what I would like to do and then we

24 will get back in, there is an area here, in

25 order to determine, a lot of things are going to


 1 have to be determined. Let's say you wrote out

 2 a check for duct tape. People want to know if

 3 you did or didn't. We are going to need a lot

 4 of records from you, do you have any objection

 5 to signing waivers for records? I mean,

 6 yourself.

 7 Now I will tell you just some of

 8 the records we are going to need okay, and I

 9 made kind a list of them and they are just

10 general, we don't have specifics. But we are

11 going to need, for instance, we are going to

12 need your bank records, if we can get them. We

13 are going to need credit card records, to see if

14 you charged anything on credit cards.

15 We are going to need movie rental

16 records, just to see if you rented "Speed" and

17 "Dirty Harry" or any of those movies. We are

18 going to need --

19 JOHN RAMSEY: You don't have any of

20 that, those kind of records now?

21 LOU SMIT: Certain records

22 require permission to do that or we need a

23 subpoena for certain records, so we can

24 either have it where it's given

25 voluntarily or sometimes I have to go


 1 through a subpoena, and that's one of the

 2 Grand Jury things that would need to be

 3 done. But again we are asking here for

 4 these things and it's up to you whether

 5 you want to --

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely no

 7 problem with that.

 8 LOU SMIT: We are going to

 9 need any records on telephone or cell

10 phone records, okay, all of the phone

11 records that you got. We may need to have

12 some Access Graphic business records that

13 show stuff that you may have purchased

14 through Access Graphics. We are going to

15 need your home phone records. We have got

16 some of these already.

17 We are going to maybe need

18 like I say some company financial records.

19 We are going to need medical records, both

20 from you and from Patsy, if we can get

21 that, to show any type of pathology that

22 you may have in regards to this. In other

23 words, if somebody out there says hey,

24 they went off the deep end about four or

25 five years ago, nobody knows about this,


 1 we have to find that out. And that's for

 2 you and for Patsy. I hope you understand

 3 this. It's not --

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Just I say

 5 I am surprised you don't have all that.

 6 MIKE KANE: See, these have to be

 7 realized a lot of times, personal things, I just

 8 want to know how you feel about it?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: It's not an

10 issue.

11 BRYAN MORGAN: I am going to say I

12 have had a discussion with Peter Hofstrom this

13 morning about this long list and told him

14 subject to conversation with my client I believe

15 that the likelihood is very strong that we will

16 produce all of that. We are not in a position

17 to say if you do this, we will do that. And we

18 want to get this thing moving.

19 On the other hand, you said at the

20 beginning of all this the time will come when we

21 can ask some questions and I have got some

22 questions, and I really think finally finally

23 when you're finished we are entitled to know and

24 I want this to proceed in good faith basis on

25 each side and I told Peter and I will tell John


 1 and I will say it for everyone, I have a real

 2 problem with certain kinds of medical records.

 3 These people are entitled to a

 4 privacy to try to recover from what they have

 5 been through, and that's a very serious issue

 6 for me, so we are going to discuss that and make

 7 a reasoned decision on it. I think you will

 8 find that every time anybody has asked us for

 9 anything in your office you have gotten it. I

10 think you will get virtually everything you have

11 described with the possible exception of

12 personal medical records that I think John and

13 Patsy are at least entitled to make a reasoned

14 decision on, Detective Smit, with respect to

15 privacy about things they need to continue this

16 healing process.

17 Other than that, I don't think it's

18 going to be an issue, but I have already

19 discussed these matters with Hofstrom and he

20 knows how we operate, and there won't be a delay

21 on this either, we will move on it, we will give

22 you an answer.

23 LOU SMIT: This is what has taken

24 so much time in this whole thing. By the time

25 we go through lawyers one way, through the


 1 lawyers on the other side, even the police

 2 department has run into this because they have

 3 tried to get records and it goes through this

 4 process and you say hey, wait a minute, we can't

 5 do these things and then the process is delayed.

 6 I am had not saying that's not the

 7 way it it's supposed to be. It's just that it

 8 gives the impression that people are holding

 9 back.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: From my

11 perspective, I have never ever told these guys

12 not to provide whatever is asked for.

13 BRYAN MORGAN: As the record now

14 stands your office has never asked us for

15 anything that we have not given. I am pretty

16 clear on that.

17 LOU SMIT: And I have no doubt

18 about that.

19 BRYAN MORGAN: I know you have got

20 some phone records, I know we pulled all those

21 together. I don't think this is going to be a

22 problem. But we are going to take some time to

23 think about some islands of privacy that I think

24 you're entitled to have to continue your healing

25 process, and I am very serious about that. So


 1 we will answer that in my view before the week's

 2 out.

 3 LOU SMIT: Let's take a break.

 4 It's about time to change the camera.

 5 (Recess taken).

 6 LOU SMIT: For purposes of the

 7 tape, we are continuing. It's 20 after 11. I

 8 think we broke right about 11 o'clock. It still

 9 is Thursday, the 25th of June, 1998.

10 Everybody's present that was here before. I

11 just stopped with the records that were needed

12 and Bryan Morgan did make a statement on that.

13 And Mike, if you would like to

14 continue here, appreciate it.

15 MIKE KANE: Where do you go from

16 here, any future plans?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: We will, we have

18 established a residence in Atlanta, which is

19 home. Haven't been home for years. Burke is in

20 a grade school. And that's certainly our

21 current plan, given that we can choose some

22 model of privacy and peace from the media.

23 MIKE KANE: Business plans?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I have gotten

25 involved with a software product that we are


 1 starting to market. We put that deal together

 2 first of June. Hopefully that will work.

 3 MIKE KANE: Burke was in here a

 4 couple of weeks ago and what did you feel about

 5 that?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, we were -- we

 7 were fine to have him interviewed. We were, you

 8 know, we have been in -- trying to keep him as

 9 normal as possible. Although it's very

10 difficult with being chased around by cameras

11 and people sitting outside your home at night,

12 so you can't go outside, shoot baskets. But we

13 were comfortable that he would be treated as a

14 child, apparently he was treated like a king.

15 So I think it was, you know, it was

16 not a hurtful experience for him. As far as we

17 can tell but --

18 MIKE KANE: Have you talked to him

19 about that, did he feel it was --

20 JOHN RAMSEY: No. In fact was

21 funny in one of the issues, the issue with the

22 original request from the police was that he not

23 talk to his parents about it. We said that's

24 ridiculous. There is not anything that my son

25 is not going to be able to talk to me about,


 1 fundamentally and that became a sticking point.

 2 But yet, all we could get out of

 3 him was you know, what did they ask you?

 4 Nothing. Was it fun? It was the most boring

 5 thing I have done in my life. End of statement.

 6 BRYAN MORGAN: Where did you go?

 7 Out. What did you do? Nothing.

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: So that was a lot

 9 of fuss about I guess we all thought about

10 12-year-old boys, they don't really talk much.

11 MIKE KANE: The, have you and

12 Mrs. Ramsey, and maybe yesterday I asked you

13 about your relationship and your relationship

14 today, and I noted that just having been

15 involved in cases over the years myself, that --

16 involving children that have been killed and the

17 parents of the children have been killed, I have

18 seen rock solid marriages end up in divorce

19 because of that, and there is a lot of reasons,

20 obviously there is a lot of tension, there is a

21 lot of guilt that turns into anger and gets

22 directed. Mrs. Ramsey gone through any of that?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: No, not really. You

24 know, we talked to someone early on, I don't

25 remember which doctor, Seevy (phonetic) or who


 1 it was, and we asked that question, what --

 2 somebody quoted as well 70 percent of marriages

 3 break up after something like this happens. We

 4 said why is that? And I think the reason that

 5 in my mind was that because one or the other

 6 blames the other for not doing something.

 7 And I think if Patsy and I were

 8 both to sit down and blame ourselves for lots of

 9 things, not having the alarm on, not checking

10 the doors, not being more security conscious,

11 not letting JonBenet -- I mean there is lots of

12 things that in retrospect as a parent my God how

13 stupid were we.

14 But one of the things that my

15 friends kind of reassured me on was you made

16 every effort, we probably sold more burglar

17 alarms and security systems because of this,

18 which is good. My good friend Rod Westmorland

19 is probably as security conscious as anybody I

20 know said after this he went through his house

21 and found windows that were unlocked. You know,

22 he said he was shocked at how unsecure his house

23 was.

24 So that's given us some relief from

25 guilt. Um, we both lost something that was


 1 very, very precious to us, and it knocked us

 2 both to our knees, and that's --

 3 MIKE KANE: What is -- what does

 4 Mrs. Ramsey feel about the whole pageant

 5 business?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, she's never

 7 really talked much about it. I think she saw it

 8 as what it was and through her eyes it was just

 9 a fun thing for her and JonBenet to do.

10 MIKE KANE: I mean in retrospect?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: In retrospect, I

12 don't know, I have never asked her that

13 question. It's not a fair question to ask.

14 MIKE KANE: I mean has she ever

15 brought it up, when you talked about how you go

16 through these feelings if I only put the alarm

17 on, if I only did this, has she ever talked

18 about it?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: No, because I mean

20 -- no, I mean that's because we don't know. I

21 think, you know, once we know what happened, you

22 know, I thought God, I mean John Douglas said

23 someone's angry with you, John, or jealous, you

24 know, if I did something at work unknowingly

25 that has caused me to lose my daughter. If it


 1 turns out that if it's somebody at work that we

 2 fired and they took it out on me, that's going

 3 to be a heavy burden for me to carry.

 4 MIKE KANE: Did you know anything

 5 about JonBenet having dumbbells in her room?

 6 Did she work out or anything like that?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so.

 8 How big were they? Were they -- Burke might

 9 have had some, Patsy had some, she was

10 recovering from cancer, she used to ride her

11 bicycle and work these dumbbells. They were

12 usually -- they usually were in the TV room. I

13 am not sure they were there when she was works

14 out, but those were the dumbbells that we had

15 around.

16 MIKE KANE: Okay. There were some

17 surveillance equipment that was put in your home

18 after the fact. When was that done?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, these fellows

20 did it, it was done because the house was broken

21 into. We thought if it was broken into again we

22 could perhaps have a lead. It might have been

23 before Halloween, I don't remember. But it was

24 put in because the house was burglarized or at

25 least broken into. We thought if it happened


 1 again, we would perhaps get some information.

 2 LOU SMIT: Who actually owns

 3 the house now, John, there is a lot of

 4 confusion?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Lockheed

 6 graciously bought it as part of their executive

 7 transfer program. They buy it through a third

 8 party, that's what they specialize in, and they

 9 turn around and sell it. And I did that,

10 because just because I, A, didn't want to deal

11 with it, B, it was expensive just to have it.

12 Even though the offer was probably half the

13 value of what it was six months ago before it

14 happened.

15 And then Mike Bynum felt very

16 strongly that he didn't want the house falling

17 into the media's hands or TV crew or a film

18 producer. And basically called and said I put

19 together a group of people that are going to buy

20 the house, we are going to hold it, so that it

21 doesn't fall into the wrong hands. And we sell

22 it, if there is profit, the profit's to be

23 donated to JonBenet's foundation we set up and

24 we were just overwhelmed that they -- we had

25 friends that would do something like that.


 1 But they, I don't know if it's a

 2 corporation or a partnership or how it was set

 3 up, but that's who owns it. And I think he had,

 4 last I knew, some senior football coach was

 5 staying there. He hasn't really talked too much

 6 about it.

 7 MIKE KANE: Did you hear anything

 8 in the course of this last year and a half about

 9 JonBenet's body, that someone was suggesting

10 that it was white paint?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: I unfortunately had

12 seen that in a tabloid or newspaper, briefly.

13 MIKE KANE: Have you discussed that

14 with anybody to get your insights on (MULTIPLE


16 BRYAN MORGAN: I am not implying

17 one way or the other but (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS) no

18 discussions about what we did or didn't.

19 MIKE KANE: I understand that.

20 BRYAN MORGAN: And you didn't

21 intend it that way.

22 MIKE KANE: I am just wondering

23 what insights you have.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: That's disgustingly

25 sick and it's something that you know there is


 1 certain amount of information that's just very

 2 difficult for me to handle, or to have. And

 3 that just struck me as nauseating to think about

 4 that, I didn't know much about it other than

 5 just a little clip I saw in the newspaper.

 6 MIKE KANE: I know you have

 7 provided some clothes last year. That I guess

 8 the request was the clothes that you might have

 9 been wearing the night before, the clothes that

10 we are dealing were the ones to the best of your

11 knowledge that you were wearing then?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Just as we could

13 remember and tell what the photos looked like,

14 that we had on.

15 MIKE KANE: Okay. I think you were

16 asked this back in April, of last year, and I

17 think Patsy even said well, I guess this will be

18 all over the paper, about her having breast

19 augmentation. Was that Dr. Clouston (phonetic),

20 was that the plastic surgeon?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was -- she

22 had it done originally in Atlanta and they

23 ruptured or, whatever. But which was discovered

24 I think during her cancer treatment. And then

25 she went to a Boulder doctor, Rapallo


 1 (phonetic), I believe. He was a plastic

 2 surgeon.

 3 MIKE KANE: Has there ever, has

 4 anybody ever made a connection, we talked about

 5 a connection between speculation and about the

 6 implants and cancer?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I wondered about

 8 that. I mean, yeah, I mean that's one of the

 9 things I looked at when I was studying what was

10 going on, but you know, Phil Clouston I think I

11 talked about that, and didn't feel there was

12 really any correlation.

13 MIKE KANE: Did she have that after

14 you were married?


16 MIKE KANE: How did the interview

17 with -- if this was set up by your lawyers, you

18 don't need to answer this -- the interview with

19 the producer from Geraldo, there was a --

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, in Atlanta?

21 MIKE KANE: Yes, there was

22 Geraldo's producer and I think Patsy --


24 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy is too

25 kind. This woman walked up to the back door


 1 with a cameraman and that was the interview.

 2 Patsy would -- if Patsy had a mean bone in her

 3 body she would have told her to get the hell off

 4 or else. She didn't, she stood there and kindly

 5 talked to this women and then she left. She

 6 tried that again, I don't know, a month later,

 7 Susan Stine happened to be there. Susan called

 8 the police, the police threatened to arrest her

 9 and that's the last we saw of her. That's what

10 Patsy should have done, but she is not that --

11 she is not mean. That was the interview, of

12 course I guess, I didn't watch it, but --

13 BRYAN MORGAN: This may not be

14 important, but we had nothing to do with that.

15 As lawyers.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: No one did.

17 BRYAN MORGAN: And we are appalled

18 by it.

19 MIKE KANE: It was pretty schlocky.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Geraldo, he's --

21 we are going to go after him if we can. He is

22 one of the lowest of the low, as far as I am

23 concerned.

24 MIKE KANE: The Patsy call in to I

25 guess it was right after Princess Di's death,


 1 she called in Larry King, were you there?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I was -- she

 3 was -- she was at her sisters I think, and

 4 unfortunately her sisters watched that stuff and

 5 Patsy was there, and saw it and -- and just was

 6 incensed that this Tony Frost was on this at

 7 all.

 8 MIKE KANE: From the Globe?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Should have been

10 in jail, not in television. And I don't know

11 what was said. I didn't see the show, I didn't

12 ever see her comments, but --

13 MIKE KANE: But that's what

14 prompted -- the Globe's editor I guess is Tony

15 Frost?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. They have

17 been particularly nasty to us.

18 MIKE KANE: Okay.


20 Globe some day.

21 MIKE KANE: You going to publish --

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know, I will

23 see how my ethics are, when they start looking

24 at the profit side of that business, I am sure.

25 MIKE KANE: You called Alex Hunter


 1 recently. What was that all about?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I got a call from a

 3 reporter who said, I forget exactly what she

 4 said, but basically -- I can't remember exactly

 5 what -- basically the net of it was that, you

 6 know, Alex had gotten this letter that had been

 7 written, he's confused as to whether that's what

 8 we really wanted to do or were going to do or

 9 willing to do, and I said I don't think -- just

10 call him up. She said maybe you better, maybe

11 you should.

12 So I picked up the phone and called

13 him and he said before we talk, I need to have

14 permission from your attorneys to talk to you,

15 and I said okay, I understand, and I think I

16 called Bryan or.

17 BRYAN MORGAN: I don't remember the

18 conversation.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: That's --


21 JOHN RAMSEY: We had about a 15

22 second conversation. But you know we are very

23 frustrated, we don't like the going through

24 filters and we want to find out who did this,

25 and think that was just an outgrowth of


 1 frustration. If there is something that needed

 2 to be done, just pick up the phone and take care

 3 of it.

 4 MIKE KANE: What about this BBC

 5 production, do you remember anything about that?

 6 Is that going to be airing soon?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know --

 8 MIKE KANE: I heard something today

 9 as a matter of fact on the radio, that the 29th

10 of this month?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: One of the

12 biggest shocks to us, when you get in -- when

13 something like this happens, the best you can do

14 is to try to make something good come out of it.

15 You know, what -- it can't just be the

16 senseless loss that you say oh, well, and move

17 on. Something substantially good has got to

18 come out of this.

19 One of the real cancers, I believe,

20 in our society, is our media system, and I

21 didn't really -- wasn't really particularly

22 strong on this until we got into it, and saw how

23 it operates, how inaccurate it is, how biased it

24 is, and what a rush to judgment it is, and what

25 an entertainment industry it is. I think it's a


 1 horrible cancer for us as a society. And we

 2 have no legitimate information system in this

 3 country today, that I know of. Certainly none

 4 that addresses a wide body of population. It's

 5 an entertainment industry. We became

 6 entertainment. To feed their profit coffers.

 7 And so one of the things I wanted

 8 to adamantly speak out about eventually was what

 9 a mess it is for us as a society, and I had

10 envisioned, you know, writing books, going on

11 television, sponsoring legislation. I didn't

12 know, that was just one of the causes that I

13 wanted to take up to try to make something good

14 come out of this and Michael Tracy, who is a

15 professor at CU had written a wonderful article

16 I thought last summer that I read in the Boulder

17 Camera that was as accurate an assessment of the

18 media as I have ever read. You know, I couldn't

19 agree with him more, I couldn't have written it

20 as eloquently as he did, but it said exactly

21 what I felt.

22 And one way or the other we talked

23 to him, and he said we would like to -- your

24 story, what has happened to you, documents in

25 real life a message that we have been trying to


 1 get out for years. But you can't just go on

 2 television and talk theoretical about you know

 3 the media's really messed up and people turned

 4 off and switch to Geraldo Rivera or something.

 5 So it's going to be wrapped around

 6 a national event that people are interested in.

 7 He said this was handed to us on a silver

 8 platter, the message that we want to get out.

 9 And we saw it and he said we thought that

10 through acquaintances, you get interest from the

11 BBC in airing it, which appealed to me, because

12 that to me is one of the most legitimate news

13 organizations in the world. It was in Britain,

14 so it wasn't like the wolf watching the hen's

15 house. It was made by somebody that was looking

16 at the United States from afar, from a much more

17 civilized society or a more mature society.

18 And so that appealed to me. And it

19 looked like the best opportunity we would have

20 to address that topic. Much better than us

21 trying to go around and individually talk about

22 it. It was a one shot deal to address a real

23 tragedy in our media system. And so that's why

24 we wanted to do it. We said this is important

25 to us, Patsy and I. Obviously these guys


 1 weren't crazy about it. One of the reasons I

 2 guess they wouldn't be. But we said no, this is

 3 -- this is one of the things we want to do. And

 4 this is the best vehicle that's going to be

 5 there to do it. And so that's the reason we

 6 participated in that.

 7 MIKE KANE: There was a, the only

 8 thing that I have read as far as stipulations

 9 go, and this may not (INAUDIBLE) but as the case

10 was that the agreement was a no holds barred

11 with the exception that it wouldn't be aired

12 until after any Grand Jury. Is that true?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I didn't make

14 the, that agreement.

15 MIKE KANE: Okay, I don't -- if

16 anything's not made.


18 JOHN RAMSEY: The only thing that

19 I think we had, we had the right to say don't

20 run it.

21 MIKE KANE: Okay.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Right now. We did

23 have, we had no right to the content. I have

24 never seen one inch of video from that. I mean

25 it could come out great, it could be a disaster,


 1 I don't know. I think I have confidence in the

 2 people who put it together. I think the message

 3 they are trying to get out is exactly the

 4 message that we felt, but our entertainment

 5 media system is horribly, horribly messed up in

 6 this country. And we got to fix it as a society

 7 or we are in big trouble, long-term.

 8 MIKE KANE: So you don't know

 9 anything about when it's airing or?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: (Shaking head).

11 I had heard July, I don't know if that was in

12 Britain or here but.

13 MIKE KANE: I just heard that on

14 the radio this morning. Anything about the 29th

15 ABC is --

16 JOHN RAMSEY: ABC, they were

17 talking to ABC about running it.

18 MIKE KANE: What do you think of

19 that?


21 acceptable to us, NBC was absolutely not

22 acceptable. NBC is a tabloid and they are a

23 problem. They are the, Fox NBC are very

24 tabloidy. ABC is, has, in our impression, after

25 you know throughout this, is they have been the


 1 most credible of anybody in terms of ethics and

 2 standards and so that made a lot of sense.

 3 MIKE KANE: Did you have input into

 4 that or --

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: We just said don't

 6 come to us telling us NBC is going to do it.

 7 Over our dead body will that happen.

 8 MIKE KANE: Okay?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: They also said look

10 what's important is we get it so it is on the

11 widest -- I wanted it to be on PBS, that was my

12 thought. Which is public broadcasting, that's

13 the whole -- that's the hope for our

14 information system as best I can tell. They

15 said well, it's yeah, that fits but it's not the

16 audience, you're going to get 10 percent of the

17 audience that you get with a message on a major

18 network. So what they said the objective should

19 be is where do we get the largest audience, and

20 it absolutely has to be run uncut. I said okay.

21 But I still don't like NBC.

22 MIKE KANE: Just go through this

23 here quickly. You talked yesterday about books,

24 what kind of books -- I used to talk more about

25 movies, but what kind of books do you like?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I like -- I

 2 kind of have gotten -- I don't read as much as

 3 I used to. I used to read a lot.

 4 MIKE KANE: What kind of things do

 5 you --

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, Tai Pan was a

 7 favorite book of mine. Shadow Moon. A lot of

 8 the James Clavell books. Chesapeake I enjoyed.

 9 MIKE KANE: James Mitchner?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Mitchner, yes.

11 Clavell was Tai Pan I guess. I enjoy, I start

12 to realize I enjoy books that have some

13 historical content to them, but they put in

14 fictional environment. I read Undaunted Courage

15 recently, about Lewis and Clarke's expedition.

16 It was interesting but it was also a neat story.

17 Kind of learned about history. So I kind of

18 gravitated to that kind of book, I think in

19 terms of interest. I don't read that much.

20 MIKE KANE: You mentioned

21 yesterday, Lou had asked you about the, and you

22 -- I don't know if you brought the name up

23 or -- it's a book that was in your, about --

24 oh, I know what it is. You said that one of the

25 worst books you had read when you were talking


 1 about how you dealt with Beth's was Goodbye is

 2 Forever?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: The title. I don't

 4 know if I read the book, but the title was too

 5 -- that wasn't the message I was looking for.

 6 Because I don't believe goodbye is forever.

 7 MIKE KANE: And I think the entire

 8 title was when "Goodbye Is Forever: Learning to

 9 Live Again After the Death of a Child." That's

10 the book that you were talking about?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, sounds like

12 it.

13 MIKE KANE: John Brentwell, I

14 guess?


16 MIKE KANE: Did, you had that right

17 next to your bed. Is that something that you

18 read.


20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't

21 remember reading it. I mean we had a lot of

22 those books around and but I don't think it was

23 anything I was reading currently, at that time.

24 MIKE KANE: Do you remember having

25 read it?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know if I

 2 ever read it, because as I said, the title was

 3 difficult. I might have skimmed it, but -- I

 4 don't remember reading it.

 5 MIKE KANE: Did you purchase it?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, I don't know

 7 that I would have purchased it. Like I said,

 8 that wasn't what I wanted to hear.

 9 MIKE KANE: Do you know who did

10 purchase it?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: We got a lot of

12 those that were given to us. Like people -- we

13 might have been given it, Patsy might have

14 bought it, I don't know. I don't think she

15 bought it either but, it might have been a gift.

16 MIKE KANE: Do you know where it

17 normally would have been kept? I mean do you

18 have like a study -- you do have a study but

19 most of the books --

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I had drawers by the

21 bed. Books used to get stuffed in there. We

22 had books in the study downstairs. You know, we

23 were -- weren't that well organized that we had

24 a special place for them. Because I had a bunch

25 of books in and around my bed area that I either


 1 had read or was in the process of reading.

 2 MIKE KANE: But this wasn't one of

 3 them?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think I was

 5 reading it at the time, no.

 6 LOU SMIT: Okay. Do you remember

 7 what books your wife may have read around that

 8 time or before? Was she a big reader?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: She wasn't really a

10 big reader. She would hit the bed, she would

11 fall asleep. I usually read in bed. She wasn't

12 a real big reader.

13 MIKE KANE: Did -- the occasions

14 that she did read books, what kinds?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, you know, I

16 don't know if I could tell you one brook she's

17 read.

18 MIKE KANE: But was she a library

19 person, would she go to the library?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Not much. We would

21 take the kids to the library but --

22 MIKE KANE: She pick up a book when

23 she would take the kids?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, no, probably

25 not.


 1 MIKE KANE: Okay. What about "Mind

 2 Hunter", John Douglas's book was there in the

 3 house, had you purchased that?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: No. It was there in

 5 '96? Interesting.

 6 MIKE KANE: Was it interesting?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I never never heard

 8 of John Douglas or that book before.

 9 MIKE KANE: So you never read that?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I bought one of

11 his books the next summer, his newer book.

12 MIKE KANE: Did you ever read any

13 Stephen King stuff?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I had. But it

15 was too freaky. You know, I read some of it,

16 and --

17 MIKE KANE: Which one, any.


19 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, the -- I

20 remember the one about the clown that came out

21 in (INAUDIBLE) something like that that was

22 probably the last one I read, because it was

23 pretty bizarre. Some of his earlier books

24 weren't quite so sick. There was one about "Pet

25 Semetary", I read that book.


 1 MIKE KANE: Was this a long time

 2 ago?


 4 MIKE KANE: Anything more recent?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: No, as I say, I

 6 don't care for his style anymore. It's a little

 7 over the edge.

 8 MIKE KANE: All right. This other

 9 book, "Campfire Stories"?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Vaguely.

11 MIKE KANE: Was that yours?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: It was the kids'.

13 If it was a kind of a kids' story book?

14 Something that goes bump in the night or

15 something like that.

16 MIKE KANE: No, some of them didn't

17 seem to be, would have scared the heck out of my

18 kids.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well the kids like

20 scary stories, JonBenet used to ask me to tell

21 her a scary story, I tried to make something up,

22 you know.

23 MIKE KANE: Okay, so?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know, they

25 like to hear scary stories.


 1 MIKE KANE: All right. Okay. How

 2 about -- James Dobson, you heard of him?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: We met with

 4 them, -- I met with him and his staff that

 5 spring.

 6 MIKE KANE: After?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: After.

 8 MIKE KANE: How about before?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: I think might have

10 one of his books. I don't know which one but, I

11 forget, if you told us some names I might

12 remember.

13 MIKE KANE: "What Wives Wish Their

14 Husbands Knew About Women"?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall that

16 one but.

17 MIKE KANE: "Why Johnny Can't Tell

18 Right From Wrong"?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-uh.

20 MIKE KANE: There any other, that

21 kind of Christian psychologist type books that

22 you were into or your wife was into?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: No, not that I can

24 remember.

25 MIKE KANE: Okay. Did you ever


 1 hear of the book "Day After Tomorrow"?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Doesn't ring a

 3 bell.

 4 MIKE KANE: Okay. I talked a

 5 little bit about movies, you said "Animal House"

 6 you have seen four or five times. You have

 7 never seen "Ransom", never seen "Speed"?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: "Speed" only

 9 sitting in an airline seat.




13 MIKE KANE: I guess I already asked

14 you about "Dirty Harry". You talked about, when

15 you had the theater, theater installed, you had

16 a different taste in movies, and I don't know

17 that I followed up on that. What, you said you

18 liked adventure, Indiana Jones type stuff, and

19 you said but the kids were different and Patsy

20 was different. What did the kids like?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, the kids liked

22 kids' movies. Patsy, gosh, I don't know,

23 she -- you know, I would come home, like

24 sometimes I come home with these older movies

25 that were kind of semiclassic movies, but...


 1 MIKE KANE: When you say come

 2 around.


 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, she --

 5 MIKE KANE: Patsy --

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: She always fell

 7 asleep so it wasn't an issue for long, but.

 8 MIKE KANE: Where did you grab

 9 there down in --

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, Blockbuster,

11 on -- well, Blockbuster on 28th usually where I

12 went.

13 MIKE KANE: Okay, used to be a

14 video store at Baseline and March. Still there.

15 Do you remember going there?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think I ever

17 went there. But.

18 MIKE KANE: Have you had any

19 inclinations since this talked about how you

20 have done some of your own research about this.

21 I was surprised you haven't gone back to see

22 "Dirty Harry".


24 MIKE KANE: I thought you were

25 looking for clues.


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know, what's

 2 the clue in "Dirty Harry"?

 3 MIKE KANE: Well some of the

 4 language out of there?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I thought --

 6 MIKE KANE: The dog, talking to the

 7 dog. Be arrested, you're going to need it, that

 8 kind of stuff. That's were the fliers that were

 9 put out?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I didn't do

11 those. In fact, I don't know I even saw them.

12 I don't like to watch any movie now that has

13 anything to do with violence, children, I mean.

14 MIKE KANE: I mean watch it on

15 entertainment about --


17 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it would be hard

18 for me to watch frankly. I am very careful with

19 what movies we do watch. I haven't been to see

20 "Titanic". I know it's going to be a sad movie

21 and I don't want to deal with that.

22 MIKE KANE: If you had a

23 15-year-old.


25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I heard about


 1 it.

 2 MIKE KANE: How it was discovered,

 3 teen --


 5 LOU SMIT: Could I ask a quick

 6 question. You know, one time a while back we

 7 were talking about the posters and stuff that

 8 was sent out. There was something in regards to

 9 a poster being placed in a mall, and then your

10 picture being placed on this poster as being a

11 wanted poster, do you remember anything about

12 that?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Somebody told me

14 about that. Yeah.

15 LOU SMIT: The person that

16 placed those posters, I heard someplace

17 that maybe he may have lived in the

18 neighborhood, did you ever hear anything

19 like that?


21 LOU SMIT: Okay. It was

22 just --

23 JOHN RAMSEY: The wanted,

24 put my face on it?

25 LOU SMIT: Yeah?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, no I didn't.

 2 LOU SMIT: Somehow I had

 3 heard that the house at the end of the

 4 block, there was a fellow lived in there?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: In the Baseline

 6 end or the other end?

 7 LOU SMIT: On the Baseline

 8 end.

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: That was a

10 house on our side of the street was rented

11 by students.

12 LOU SMIT: Right, and somehow

13 I heard, and I didn't know where I heard

14 this from, I don't know if I heard it over

15 the Internet or heard something, that

16 maybe the fellow that placed those posters

17 in the mall could have somehow lived in

18 that house. This was just an ironic

19 thing, but I wanted to throw that in.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Wasn't there

21 something about that house that came out?

22 Does that ring a bell?

23 BRYAN MORGAN: If you know, I

24 don't know.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, the


 1 house --

 2 LOU SMIT: 715?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Baseline and

 4 15th. On our side of the street.

 5 LOU SMIT: Right there

 6 (indicating).


 8 remember anything like that?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't.


11 JOHN RAMSEY: Something rings a

12 bell but I -- I don't remember.

13 LOU SMIT: Okay. It was

14 just a thought I had. Go ahead, continue.

15 The poster rang that.

16 MIKE KANE: Do you have a favorite

17 passages out of the Bible?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, hum, I didn't

19 really have a favorite passage. I have been

20 studying Philippian with a friend of mine.

21 There is a passage in there that he said you

22 need to memorize this, and I can't quote it

23 because I haven't memorized it yet, but. I

24 don't -- I couldn't quote you a favorite

25 passage out of the bible, sorry to say but --


 1 MIKE KANE: Yesterday you mentioned

 2 about Father Rol, that he -- the healing

 3 service.


 5 MIKE KANE: During Patsy's cancer,

 6 did you get involved in any other type of faith

 7 healing, programs?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, no. Prayed a

 9 lot but we didn't --

10 MIKE KANE: Did you have like tent

11 revivals?


13 MIKE KANE: Like hands, Oral

14 Roberts type stuff?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I don't think

16 so.

17 MIKE KANE: Okay. I notice I am

18 really taking a long time here but it's really

19 important for us to get to know you, and I do

20 appreciate the fact that you have been real

21 patient. You have -- have you ever thought

22 about suicide?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

24 MIKE KANE: Before JonBenet's

25 death?



 2 MIKE KANE: About how Beth?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall -- I

 4 have -- when I was going through a divorce,

 5 suicide's an easy way out, kind of the

 6 rationalize I come to. You know, it's not fair

 7 to people that love you and are around you, but

 8 boy, when you're down big time that's boy, you

 9 think just check out of here. And I remember

10 one night thinking about that when I was -- not

11 that I did anything about it, but I was at that

12 point in despair when he was going through my

13 divorce.

14 I don't remember with Beth. I mean

15 I was -- it was -- that was a huge loss for

16 me. And (INAUDIBLE) on medication, and it took

17 me years to get through that. I couldn't drive

18 home from work without crying for a long time,

19 because I was by myself, and I had time to think

20 and it was very difficult to take a long trip,

21 look at the back of an empty seat. So it took a

22 long time to get me -- to get past that where I

23 could think of Beth and smile. And think of

24 happy things. But.

25 MIKE KANE: Have you recently been


 1 thinking these thoughts?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: No, no. Certainly

 3 something you think when you're so far down

 4 after something like this, it looks like the

 5 only relief, but then -- the reason that Patsy

 6 and I come through this and have come through is

 7 because we have Burke, Melinda and John Andrew.

 8 If we didn't have other children, we probably

 9 would have checked out a long time ago. What's

10 the point.

11 MIKE KANE: Okay. Has Mrs. Ramsey

12 ever come through this, been on Prozac

13 (INAUDIBLE) I mean which states of depression

14 trigger or was it just to cope?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: You mean since

16 JonBenet's death? No, she never -- we talked

17 about that. I mean we never talked about it

18 with each other but, it wouldn't surprise me if,

19 you know, deep down in her thoughts that -- (Mr.

20 Ramsey is banging on the table as he speaks,

21 making it difficult to understand).

22 MIKE KANE: A lot of these

23 questions I have already asked. Oh, have you

24 ever had any history of anxiety disorders or

25 panic attacks or things like that?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I know of.

 2 I mean I have always felt like I am kind of a

 3 worrier and anxious about the future but --

 4 MIKE KANE: But not abnormal?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't think.

 6 MIKE KANE: No history of obsessive

 7 type behavior or dwelling on things obsessively?


 9 MIKE KANE: You don't recall any

10 events of anything like that?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: I feel like my

12 memory is a lot worse now than it used to be,

13 but no.

14 MIKE KANE: All right. Have you

15 ever had any disorder anything like that?


17 MIKE KANE: Mrs. Ramsey, to your

18 knowledge?


20 MIKE KANE: Do you have any

21 recurrent nightmares about all this?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I had nightmares

23 for a while. Of course, I can't remember, yeah

24 I did for a while. But I haven't recently.

25 MIKE KANE: You don't have any


 1 recollection of what they might have been?


 3 MIKE KANE: All I can remember one

 4 dream where I was holding JonBenet and we were

 5 playing and everything was okay, and then I

 6 couldn't figure out if I was dreaming or not.

 7 You know, it just -- I mean of course when you

 8 wake up, it's a pretty big downer.

 9 MIKE KANE: Have you ever had an

10 incident of sleepwalking?


12 MIKE KANE: Has Mrs. Ramsey?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, no.

14 MIKE KANE: She gets up during the

15 night, she says she hears you; do you hear her?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: She does now once in

17 awhile. She didn't used to the all, but she

18 gets up. Seems like recently, once a night to

19 use the bathroom.

20 MIKE KANE: Do you remember the day

21 after this happened, being on the phone talking

22 to someone about getting your golf clubs?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Absolutely not.

24 MIKE KANE: Okay. From what I have

25 read, JonBenet had an injury at one time to her


 1 face. What do you know about that?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Burke was up at

 3 the lake and Burke was in the yard swinging a

 4 golf club, and she walked up either in front of

 5 him or behind him, I was not there, and she got

 6 clobbered. It was a pure accident.

 7 MIKE KANE: Where did you hear

 8 about that?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, Patsy called me.

10 MIKE KANE: You were out of town?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, I was -- she

12 was at the lake, I might have been in Boulder, I

13 don't remember. I was not there.

14 MIKE KANE: I guess this was

15 another -- Burke went to school after this. Had

16 a black eye. Do you know anything about that?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, he got --

18 there's a picture of him in his baseball uniform

19 with a real shiner and he had gotten a black eye

20 playing baseball. He was a fielder and "I got

21 it, I got, I got it", clunk.

22 MIKE KANE: Was it during a game?


24 MIKE KANE: As part of --



 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, it was part of

 2 the league he was in, a practice or a game.

 3 MIKE KANE: You weren't there?


 5 MIKE KANE: Where did you hear

 6 about it?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy told me

 8 about it.

 9 MIKE KANE: Okay.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: But he got conked

11 by a because ball. It should have been in the

12 glove but he missed it.

13 MIKE KANE: You never heard it was

14 Patsy that threw the ball?


16 MIKE KANE: Okay.

17 JOHN RAMSEY: It wasn't. Never

18 heard that. It wasn't her; it was a fly ball.

19 MIKE KANE: Fly ball? We all do

20 that.


22 MIKE KANE: All right. Look at

23 this, I'm just going through this stuff here.

24 The morning of the 26th, after the police were

25 called, the Whites and Fernies were called, was


 1 that right away, were you there when they were

 2 called?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I vaguely remember

 4 Patsy saying "come over, come over", but I

 5 didn't know she was calling.

 6 MIKE KANE: You didn't have a

 7 discussion with her about --


 9 MIKE KANE: -- you know, call --

10 why did she call those folks?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: I think she just

12 wanted help. From friends. Barbara Fernie and

13 her were good buddies, she and Priscilla were

14 good friends. I think she was just reaching out

15 for any help she could gather.

16 MIKE KANE: Okay. But you hadn't

17 discussed with her why?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-uh.

19 MIKE KANE: In looking back on it,

20 is there anything -- I mean obviously this was

21 a scene where there was a lot of trace evidence

22 and things like that and more people come in, it

23 was more confusing, contamination and that kind

24 of stuff. Do you have any discussions with her

25 about that, about geez, wish all these folks


 1 hadn't been there?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well yeah, in

 3 retrospect, we wished we had followed --

 4 MIKE KANE: I mean have you talked

 5 to Mrs. Ramsey about that in retrospect?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Not really.

 7 MIKE KANE: Okay. You mentioned

 8 yesterday that when she was on the phone, 911

 9 call, that she was having a hard time

10 communicating the seriousness of it or something

11 like that, I can't remember?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I just remember her

13 saying that. I mean I didn't hear the other

14 side of the conversation, so I remember her

15 saying, you know, she felt like it took forever

16 to --

17 MIKE KANE: Okay, was this after,

18 right after she got off the phone or later on or

19 what?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Later on, yeah.

21 I don't remember.

22 MIKE KANE: Were you listening, I

23 mean, do you remember hearing her on the phone?


25 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember her


 1 screaming into the phone, but I don't remember

 2 really what she was saying or anything.

 3 MIKE KANE: And you know these are

 4 recorded, 911 calls are always recorded. Have

 5 you heard the recording?


 7 MIKE KANE: All right. Do you know

 8 whether she hung up right away, after she

 9 stopped talking?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I am sure she did,

11 but I don't -- I don't remember specifically

12 that.

13 MIKE KANE: Do you remember what

14 conversation you had immediately after she

15 stopped talking on the phone?


17 MIKE KANE: Could anybody else have

18 been there?


20 MIKE KANE: Okay.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Just Patsy and I.

22 MIKE KANE: All right. Um, you

23 have been to Florida, I am sure?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

25 MIKE KANE: Have you ever been to


 1 Coral Gables?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: We were in Coral

 3 Gables for the, as a guest of Sun Microsystems

 4 for the Superbowl that was played in Miami.

 5 They lost. '93, '94, something back in there.

 6 MIKE KANE: Did you ever hear of

 7 Spy World?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that came up,

 9 and I couldn't remember for sure the name, but I

10 said you know, one of the questions that came up

11 was a stun gun thing, and I know fundamentally

12 what they are. I don't know that I could draw

13 one for you, but I know what they are. And I

14 was curious where you buy one, where would

15 somebody buy something like that. Somebody said

16 spy shop.

17 We were in Coral Gables and I told

18 these guys, I said -- we were in Coral Gables

19 and we were talking about the street and there

20 was this spy shop that we went into and I was

21 curious about if there was a device that you

22 could buy that you could figure out if your

23 phones were tapped. That had been a big concern

24 about gee, there is a lot of stuff going on in

25 our business, and gee what, you know, what if we


 1 are naive and somebody has tapped our phone and

 2 really, that could be very damaging to us in

 3 other negotiations and so forth.

 4 So I went in there specifically

 5 asking is there a device like that you can buy

 6 and basically the answer I got was no, that's

 7 pretty tough to do but do, but here's all the

 8 other stuff you can do, and he showed us how you

 9 can put bugs in. It's easy to bug something,

10 pretty difficult to find the bug is kind of what

11 I came out of that. It actually made me more

12 worried about what I was worried about.

13 But he gave us a video and said

14 here's a catalog of our stuff and we threw it in

15 our suitcase, we never looked at it, threw it in

16 a drawer, sat there for years. I don't remember

17 when that Superbowl was.

18 LOU SMIT: John, who is we?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy and I.

20 LOU SMIT: Into the store?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, Patsy and I

22 went with, Patsy and I were just together.

23 LOU SMIT: Anybody else with

24 you?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't think


 1 so.

 2 LOU SMIT: You were with the,

 3 what's the name of the --


 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Sun

 6 Microsystems was the host, and they had

 7 invited us to the Superbowl game that year

 8 and they put us in a hotel in Coral

 9 Gables.

10 LOU SMIT: So it was just you

11 and Patsy walking together and you just

12 walked by the store?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I am pretty sure it

14 was just us; yeah, I am sure it was.

15 LOU SMIT: Do you know who

16 else you might have been down there with

17 or that you visited with, because we may

18 want to talk with these people.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, there's

20 some of the people from Sun Microsystems.

21 A guy named Joe Womack. Stylvan

22 (phonetic) he was there. I am sure

23 (inaudible name). What's his name, Joe

24 Roebuck. He's one of the top people at

25 Sun Microsystems. He was there, we spent


 1 some time with him. There was a group of

 2 people, probably 60 people were invited.

 3 LOU SMIT: Okay, go ahead.

 4 Continue?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: But anyway on

 6 that, I mean because we talked about that in

 7 first of all, I don't know what was on that tape

 8 because we hadn't looked at it. I believe the

 9 only reason it didn't tossed into the

10 wastebasket is it made into the drawer first.


12 MIKE KANE: So you never made any

13 purchases there?


15 MIKE KANE: You were down there

16 later on?


18 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE) whatever?


20 MIKE KANE: Did you ever purchase

21 any other type of security, personal security or

22 you know, that kind of genre of --

23 JOHN RAMSEY: (Shaking head).

24 MIKE KANE: -- product line?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: (Shaking head).


 1 MIKE KANE: -- from them or anybody

 2 else?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't think

 4 so. Not that I remember.

 5 MIKE KANE: All right. What did

 6 you know at the time I guess Lou talked to you

 7 last July about stun guns and what did you know

 8 about them at the time?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: I just knew they

10 were an electrical device that emitted a high

11 voltage, low current probably, enough to stop

12 somebody but not kill 'em.

13 MIKE KANE: Have you since that

14 time learned any more about them or done any

15 research into them or made inquiries about them

16 or --

17 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I haven't.

18 MIKE KANE: -- looked to see, I

19 think one of the questions Lou asked you was any

20 of your friends or anybody --



23 MIKE KANE: Yes, have you followed

24 up on any of that -- I think you might have

25 even mentioned Priscilla or (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS)?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: That was just

 2 speculation. To me it was, I mean, I didn't

 3 know how big they are, but it sounded like

 4 something that a woman may have in her purse for

 5 personal protection. And the people we knew,

 6 Priscilla being from California, and kind of --

 7 probably more -- she came from an area where

 8 you have security issues and so forth. Might

 9 have -- you know, if anybody was going to have

10 one, it might be somebody like her. I

11 absolutely don't ever remember her having one.


13 MIKE KANE: You haven't found any

14 other associates or acquaintances or people

15 that --

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I haven't.

17 MIKE KANE: Okay.

18 LOU SMIT: Could I ask a little

19 bit?

20 MIKE KANE: Sure.

21 LOU SMIT: We always talk

22 about clues, now there has been a lot of

23 discussion, was it a stun gun or wasn't it

24 a stun gun and there is probably reasons

25 for everything on this. But if it is a


 1 clue, that's something again that points

 2 us at a killer, okay, and that's why I

 3 think it's really important that all of us

 4 work together on that. I don't know if

 5 you use your resources or anything on

 6 this. This is really important.

 7 If our guy or gal or whatever

 8 it was used a stun gun. I said that once

 9 before, and somehow whether or not that's

10 important or not. Stun gun, if a person

11 uses a stun gun in the commission of this

12 particular crime it really tells a lot

13 about the mental aspects of this person.

14 A stun gun is something that you or anyone

15 else would probably know if a person had a

16 stun gun.

17 John, if you had a stun gun,

18 somebody would know that you had that. Or

19 if anybody else, if Fleet White had a stun

20 gun, somebody would see that. My

21 estimation on this case, and somehow I

22 don't know, maybe I have been is if that's

23 advertized some way, and I don't know if

24 we are ever going to be able do that, or

25 maybe we ought to have a lot of careful


 1 consideration before that's done, because

 2 I could throw it off on a wrong track,

 3 somebody could see some kook with a stun

 4 gun, so that's why I kind of pushed that a

 5 little bit. And that's why I would like

 6 to you think about that a little bit.

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Believe me, I

 8 thought about it hard. And I mean, I could

 9 speculate as to who might, but I have never --

10 never talked to anybody that had one or known

11 anybody to have one.

12 LOU SMIT: Because the

13 clues, the cord, the tape, the stun gun,

14 its got to point that somebody may --.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. On a

16 scale one to ten, how certain are you that

17 that was involved, a stun gun was

18 involved?

19 LOU SMIT: Personally? Other

20 people don't think it's quite that high.

21 It's really hard to determine different

22 things, but just from what we know, and I

23 won't get into all the things on that, it

24 very consistent with that, some things

25 have to be explained. Now whatever


 1 follows or going to be done on this from

 2 this time on, I don't know exactly. But

 3 again --

 4 DAVID WILLIAMS: Could I say

 5 one thing. This Simons, photographer, he

 6 has a lot of paramilitary type items, bows

 7 and arrows, hunting knives, things along

 8 those lines.

 9 LOU SMIT: Okay, that's good

10 to know.

11 DAVID WILLIAMS: He never,

12 never did we learn anything about stun

13 gun. But he has bows and arrows and

14 hunting knives, collections of those

15 types. Paramilitary kinds of things.

16 BRYAN MORGAN: Lou, if you

17 will recall at the time that you asked

18 John and Patsy and John Andrew, you

19 requested to keep it quiet.

20 LOU SMIT: For obvious

21 reason.

22 BRYAN MORGAN: And we did.

23 So we are completely take your judgment on

24 should it be advertized or not but we did,

25 and it was heartbreaking to us when it was


 1 leaked.

 2 MIKE KANE: Well, you know,

 3 on that, I don't know. I mean I think

 4 that there was a lot of investigation. It

 5 was done and the Boulder police started

 6 asking a lot of people if they had or if

 7 they knew of, so I don't know if it was

 8 necessarily leaked. If it was that you

 9 start asking those questions and everybody

10 starts to say wait a second, there is a

11 stun gun.

12 BRYAN MORGAN: The disturbing

13 thing to us about that is that the people

14 that were asked that talked to us about

15 it, said they were never told to keep

16 their mouth shut. Wasn't even mentioned

17 by the police who talked with them,

18 "please keep this quiet", as you did to

19 us, that was really wrong .

20 But enough, I don't want to

21 cast any more rocks. Obviously your

22 judgment controls. If you want to put it

23 up on a billboard.

24 LOU SMIT: The cat's out of

25 the bag now, because if we go in the wrong


 1 direction on that we can go in the wrong

 2 direction. So people that make those type

 3 of decisions have to make them.

 4 MIKE KANE: And I would say

 5 that it's going to be, it's the kind of

 6 thing that first of all you have to be

 7 sure that that's, that a stun gun was used

 8 because like you said, if it's not, and

 9 you start doing that, you're going to go

10 down a path that has a dead end.

11 BRYAN MORGAN: How could you

12 be sure? There is a lot of opinion out

13 there.

14 MIKE KANE: We will have to

15 talk about that.

16 LOU SMIT: There is a lot

17 of things, it's kind of a delicate thing

18 to talk about things like that. I think

19 it takes a little bit more discussion, a

20 little more thought before we come up with

21 things that we should do.

22 BRYAN MORGAN: Anything that

23 we can do to help on the comments that

24 were just made or on this or any other

25 issue, call, okay. Any time. You guys


 1 don't have to --


 3 JOHN RAMSEY: It would be nice to

 4 have the information just to be sure that there

 5 was --


 7 BRYAN MORGAN: I really believe as

 8 of this point, we have gotten probably as many

 9 crack leads as anybody else has, and we do

10 perform a filter screen, because some of these

11 (INAUDIBLE) and we don't want police wasting

12 their time on people who take a lot of these

13 crack pots, but short of that neglect that we

14 thought we had came to us, whether or not we

15 thought anyone knew about it or read. I think

16 we have made sure that it got an answer when

17 Peter, Alex or David to you or others I will

18 double-check that and we will continue to do it.

19 LOU SMIT: Sometime even

20 innocuous leads, in other words you got a

21 lot of these calls and get a lot of tips

22 in. Maybe for instance, just to get into

23 that just a tad, I would like to show a

24 photograph here. This is a photograph of

25 a stun gun. Now, is this the type of stun


 1 gun, we don't know positively for sure.

 2 We do know that there are different kinds,

 3 all kinds, different kinds of stun guns,

 4 and somehow, and we have indicators of at

 5 least which ones to eliminate. Some of

 6 them.

 7 Now, I would like just to

 8 take a look at this photograph,

 9 photographs 7-1 through 7-6.

10 DAVID WILLIAMS: Could I ask

11 a question. Is there a standard dimension

12 of how far the probes are apart --

13 LOU SMIT: No, and that's why

14 you can narrow things down a little more

15 to certain types. This one is an Air

16 Taser. Have you ever heard of that name

17 before?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: No. No, I have

19 never even seen this. (INAUDIBLE).

20 BRYAN MORGAN: I take it that's one

21 of the once that you have not been able to

22 eliminate.

23 LOU SMIT: Right.

24 BRYAN MORGAN: And that's the name

25 of the brand?


 1 LOU SMIT: Right, and with this

 2 particular brand, it requires a registration

 3 also. And I have picked up some names.

 4 VOICE: I was going to ask about

 5 registration.

 6 LOU SMIT: A lot of them aren't

 7 registered.

 8 DAVID WILLIAMS: Are these the ones

 9 that the probes shoot out?

10 LOU SMIT: Yes, but it also

11 has a mechanism whereby you don't have to

12 use that.


14 LOU SMIT: John, as long as

15 we are in this, and I know it's going to

16 take a little bit of time, but I would

17 like you to look through a list of people

18 that I have that have purchased these in

19 Colorado, so if any name pops out at you,

20 please let me know.

21 BRYAN MORGAN: It would be

22 very awkward for us to -- (INAUDIBLE).

23 LOU SMIT: Let's discuss it

24 with people that make those decisions.



 1 love adding those names to our --

 2 BRYAN MORGAN: If we got it

 3 we would absolutely guarantee that it --

 4 LOU SMIT: This may be a

 5 confidential list.

 6 BRYAN MORGAN: Understood. I

 7 will simply say that if we got it we would

 8 absolutely guarantee it doesn't get

 9 anyplace except for me and John and Patsy

10 for us to run it against names we --

11 LOU SMIT: I will discuss

12 that.


14 LOU SMIT: In fact, Mr.

15 Morgan, the reason I have this, is I have

16 a cover letter here that does say,

17 "accordingly, I must ask that you preserve

18 the privacy of this list from public

19 disclosure."

20 BRYAN MORGAN: Understood.


22 JOHN RAMSEY: The only other

23 kind, and this is horrible to throw out,

24 the only thing that I know that has, likes

25 guns and stuff like that is Jay Arotski


 1 (phonetic). (INAUDIBLE), I know that has

 2 guns. He likes to collect those things.


 4 JOHN RAMSEY: A guy that worked

 5 for us, Ken Bishop, I think, Access Graphics.

 6 This says Billington, Colorado, which I don't

 7 remember (INAUDIBLE).

 8 LOU SMIT: By the way, who

 9 did you use -- did you ever have

10 locksmith work done to your house?


12 BRYAN MORGAN: Let me see that?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, seems like it.

14 That we had the front door replaced when we were

15 remodeling. It seems like it. But I couldn't

16 tell you.

17 LOU SMIT: Do you remember

18 the company?


20 LOU SMIT: Have you ever

21 heard of Boulder Lock and Key or anything?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: No, that name rings

23 a bell, but I don't know if it's because they

24 have been in the news or what. But I was going

25 to say Boulder Lock and Safe, but -- I have a


 1 list of all the bills I paid when we did our

 2 remodeling.

 3 LOU SMIT: That would be very

 4 helpful.

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay, all the

 6 contractors, all the individual checks, because

 7 I keep track of it. So I have that. We can get

 8 a copy of that to you.

 9 LOU SMIT: I don't mean to dig in

10 a whole lot into what you say, but I have one

11 rather real quick list. This is kind of a

12 county pedophile list, okay. Now, you may or

13 may not know people on here and we are not

14 saying that anybody did this, but this is list

15 of people that has been kind of developed in the

16 county. Any of those names look familiar,

17 please let me know, that may have done work for

18 you or that stick out.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: No, unfortunately,

20 not.

21 BRYAN MORGAN: We make the same

22 request for that so we can see (INAUDIBLE).

23 MIKE KANE: That's a public record

24 and not it's not releasable. (INAUDIBLE).

25 BRYAN MORGAN: Just helps to be


 1 able to think. And.


 3 MIKE KANE: All I am saying there

 4 may be a statutory prohibition.

 5 VOICE: A straight legal

 6 prohibition?

 7 MIKE KANE: Right.

 8 LOU SMIT: Why don't you

 9 continue.

10 MIKE KANE: Okay.

11 DAVID WILLIAMS: Did I miss the

12 list of the pedophiles, the pedophile list?

13 LOU SMIT: Okay, just take --


15 LOU SMIT: You can continue unless

16 the -- (INAUDIBLE).

17 BRYAN MORGAN: John, I don't know

18 why I am thinking of maybe running down


20 MIKE KANE: Is this something we

21 should know?

22 BRYAN MORGAN: I will tell you all

23 I remember, and I don't know what happened.

24 Sometime well along in the last year, from my

25 memory, we and by that I think Ellis got a


 1 letter from someone who said you should know

 2 that having mentioned a male relative of mine is

 3 someone who has an interest in little girls, an

 4 improper interest, and as far as I know was

 5 living in south Boulder last Christmas, and

 6 there was one thing under that piqued our

 7 interest. And I don't even want to say the name

 8 out loud, because I am not sure, but I can find

 9 that piece of correspondence and I will do it.

10 It may or may not have been the man

11 is a pedophile, but there was a strong

12 indication from the letter writer that he or she

13 was reluctant to do it, because it was a

14 relative, but that he or she was concerned and I

15 know we looked into that to some degree. But I

16 will call that back.

17 DAVID WILLIAMS: Is Ellis getting

18 allowed to look at this, do you know?

19 LOU SMIT: I don't know why

20 not. If we show it to you, we can show it

21 to them, as long as it's not copied or

22 anything.

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we got a

24 call, I wish I could remember.



 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Maybe a month

 2 and a half or so, Pam got a call and she

 3 called me at about 10 o'clock at night,

 4 all upset and said I just talked to a

 5 woman in, I forget the town, Greeley, I

 6 think, that said she knows who did this,

 7 and she will only talk to you or Patsy.

 8 And we called her. And she wasn't there.

 9 We called and left a message.

10 And we got in touch with her

11 like a day later, and it was a housewife

12 who sounded very normal, and said she was

13 a long time friend of I think it was one

14 of the daughters of Linda Hoffman, or in

15 that family and she said I am absolutely

16 convinced Mervin Peters (phonetic) is the

17 killer, we call him Irwin the molester.

18 We won't leave him alone with Adriana, and

19 I guess we were hoping for more than a

20 suspicion, which is all that was. But.

21 LOU SMIT: Could we get more

22 information on that, John?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, did we write

24 that up?

25 BRYAN MORGAN: I don't remember


 1 that. But I know -- let's talk with Ellis and

 2 see.


 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Because I think I

 5 asked Pam to write up her conversation. We have

 6 -- we will run together what we have.

 7 LOU SMIT: But it was a

 8 woman in Greeley that mentioned that or

 9 called in?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: She called us, she

11 said -- I remember Patsy saying there is one

12 other person out there that knows this killer.

13 And she said I decided I better call but I mean,

14 it was, it was, she didn't say anything that to

15 me was conclusive, but it was circumstantial.

16 You know, Mervin Peters is a bad guy, we called

17 him Mervin the molester, we won't leave him

18 alone, he's gone off the deep end, he is doing a

19 lot of drinking. I just know that's who did it.

20 And --

21 BRYAN MORGAN: This is a woman in

22 Greeley?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I am pretty sure.

24 Patsy will remember.



 1 We debated whether we should call.

 2 We said hell, let's call. She was a very nice

 3 woman, she had a family, she sounded very normal

 4 at the time.

 5 LOU SMIT: I know we are

 6 pushing just a little bit here.

 7 MIKE KANE: Actually I am

 8 pretty close to wrapping up.

 9 BRYAN MORGAN: Let's go

10 ahead.


12 LOU SMIT: I have a lot of

13 stuff but that's --

14 BRYAN MORGAN: If you can

15 finish yours and I am not saying forever,

16 let's do that. If it's a logical breaking

17 point, then, I am getting faint.


19 MIKE KANE: How well do you

20 know Dr. Buff?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Just as casual

22 friends. We met him as JonBenet's physician

23 initially, they go to our church, his wife Penny

24 is a real wonderful woman, I mean we, we have

25 been over to dinner two or three times, I


 1 suppose, at their house. But he's just a -- we

 2 certainly consider him a friend, but he is not a

 3 close friend. He is an acquaintance.

 4 MIKE KANE: You have never been

 5 treated by him, he was strictly JonBenet's?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, he was

 7 JonBenet's pediatrician.

 8 MIKE KANE: Burke goes also?


10 MIKE KANE: You don't know Patsy

11 was ever treated by him for anything?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Not -- not that I

13 know of. I mean I think he may have prescribed

14 some medication very early on after this

15 happened, but only because he was there.

16 MIKE KANE: Well, there is from

17 what I understand, he ended up there, he was

18 called by somebody, that person said that he was

19 called because Patsy asked that he be called to

20 get -- because she wanted something to take

21 after this happened. Do you know about that?

22 In other words, she asked a person

23 to call Dr. Buff to get me a prescription.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible. I

25 don't know. I mean, I mean that's conceivable.


 1 I am not aware of that. That's conceivable.

 2 MIKE KANE: Why would she go to

 3 Dr. Buff for a prescription?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, he was a

 5 family friend, and you know, the only other

 6 doctor, the only other doctor I went to is Peter

 7 Gillian and he was always kind of a hard guy to

 8 get to know. I never felt like I knew him.

 9 Because we -- he just was a doctor. So he's

10 not somebody, you know, who I would have called.

11 I don't know, I mean, ask Patsy,

12 she would know or remember, probably. But

13 Dr. Buff was there with us in the Fernies' house

14 as a friend primarily, as a concerned friend,

15 and you know, if somebody said gee, maybe put

16 Patsy on medication or he might have said that,

17 I don't know.

18 MIKE KANE: Yesterday I threw out

19 the name Dr. Daaru (phonetic) or Daared,

20 D-A-A-R-E-D, I think it is.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: That doesn't ring a

22 bell. What kind of doctor?

23 MIKE KANE: He was a family

24 practitioner.



 1 MIKE KANE: When Dr. Buff, he was

 2 interviewed, Prime Time or one of those, about

 3 JonBenet's treatment. Did you know that was

 4 going to occur, that he was going to be --

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: No, we didn't.

 6 MIKE KANE: Didn't talk to you?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: No. As a matter of

 8 fact --

 9 MIKE KANE: As a matter of fact

10 what?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: We were surprised.

12 We thought that was, that was a Mike Bynum deal?

13 MIKE KANE: Yes.

14 JOHN RAMSEY: We just thought they

15 were talking to Mike. Certainly wasn't aware.

16 MIKE KANE: So you hadn't had any

17 discussions ahead of time?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-uh.

19 MIKE KANE: Get any waivers from

20 you to go on TV and talk about it?


22 MIKE KANE: All right, he says that

23 --

24 BRYAN MORGAN: He didn't.

25 MIKE KANE: All right. What do you


 1 think of that, about his going --

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I never saw the

 3 program, so I don't know what he said. But I

 4 know when he has spoken out in support of us,

 5 he's gotten crucified, is my impression. That's

 6 not fair for him as a person. Brilliant guy, a

 7 very good doctor. So I don't know what he said.

 8 So I don't -- I didn't -- I mean I guess my

 9 reaction was gee, it's nice that he felt strong

10 enough to speak out and support us, but I don't

11 --

12 MIKE KANE: Have you heard anybody

13 say or suggest that he was speaking out in

14 support of his own interests?


16 MIKE KANE: The -- he, it said in

17 that, that he had -- I guess one of the things

18 that he was asked about on that program was that

19 there were several instances of vaginitis,

20 urotract infections and whatever. And that he

21 had done, he I guess limited vaginal exams.

22 Were you aware that at the time, I am not saying

23 that --

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. No.

25 MIKE KANE: -- that he was speaking


 1 about it but prior to --

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I wasn't.

 3 MIKE KANE: Did you ever talk to

 4 Patsy about --

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: It was kind of a

 6 mother-daughter thing, right.

 7 MIKE KANE: Okay. Have you heard

 8 about that since?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't

10 remember why, but I have.

11 MIKE KANE: Do you know in what

12 context?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know if

14 these guys asked me about it or I read it in the

15 newspaper or something, but that's the extent of

16 it.

17 MIKE KANE: Okay. Do you know why

18 he was -- he was called apparently in the

19 evening on the 17th of December, three different

20 times, do you know anything about that, why he

21 was --

22 JOHN RAMSEY: (Shaking head).

23 MIKE KANE: He has noted in his

24 records that he was called or his office was

25 called 6:28, 6:50 and 6:59. Do you know what


 1 that would have been on the 17th?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: No, not for sure.

 3 Patsy was pretty quick to call for help if she,

 4 you know, if she -- she didn't let medical

 5 problems sit around. She usually just picked up

 6 the phone. She might remember, but I don't.

 7 MIKE KANE: When JonBenet was put

 8 to bed that night, when you carried her

 9 upstairs, your pictures from Christmas Day, she

10 is wearing a little pink bottom and top. Is

11 that typical?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, that's what she

13 got up, I remember her running into her bedroom

14 with that on Christmas morning.

15 MIKE KANE: And she wore that for

16 Christmas on the bicycle?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

18 MIKE KANE: I mean, I have two

19 daughters and they wear the same, you know,

20 until it's the end of the week and washing or

21 whatever. Did she wear that generally

22 underwear?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember.

24 She had a drawer full of nightgowns, and she

25 didn't have one nightgown she wore all the time.


 1 It varied.

 2 MIKE KANE: There was a nightgown

 3 that was found down in the wine cellar?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I have heard about

 5 that.

 6 MIKE KANE: Okay, do you know

 7 anything about that?


 9 MIKE KANE: Was that --

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I had never seen

11 that. I didn't see it when he was down this.

12 Sounds very bizarre. I don't know why that

13 would be there. I mean that room was usually

14 full of Christmas stuff. It's a nasty room.

15 Just you didn't go in there.

16 MIKE KANE: Could have been brought

17 down in a blanket?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I suppose, I don't

19 know. I didn't see it at all. As part of the

20 blanket or anything.

21 MIKE KANE: You don't remember it

22 being there or anywhere?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Not at all.

24 MIKE KANE: Okay. Subsequent to

25 that, have you talked to Mrs. Ramsey about that,


 1 what that nightgown was or where it might have

 2 been or?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: No. The only thing

 4 I heard was that she didn't recognize it. Or

 5 wasn't sure she could recognize it, based on the

 6 picture that we had been shown yesterday.

 7 MIKE KANE: So you discussed this

 8 last night with her?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: I think, I think it

10 came up in a review that we had, I don't

11 remember. But yeah, we are here to solve the

12 murder, I mean Patsy, you know, sees something--

13 MIKE KANE: I am not suggesting

14 any --


16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah but we talked

17 about it briefly and what caught my attention

18 was Kayo (phonetic) was there, he heard

19 something about a nightgown, but I didn't know

20 where it was found, that's the first time I

21 heard it was found in the basement, and the fact

22 that Patsy didn't recognize it I felt was

23 significant, because she knows stuff like that.


25 MIKE KANE: You said that she had a


 1 drawer full of things so she can wear the same

 2 one every night?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 4 MIKE KANE: Where was that, that

 5 drawer?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: It was in her

 7 bathroom, I believe, one of the drawers in her

 8 bathroom. Cabinet.

 9 MIKE KANE: These were just like

10 certain color nightgowns little girls would

11 wear?


13 MIKE KANE: Are there any special

14 ones?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, not some of

16 them more appropriate for summer and spring,

17 some of them heavier.

18 MIKE KANE: Were they like do you

19 have -- the only reference point I have is that

20 Christmas morning that pink top and bottom, was

21 that typical of the wintertime?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, it might have

23 been. She had, you know, some long nightgowns

24 that she would wear. I think she had a Beauty

25 and the Beast one, I remember. But it was


 1 usually first an issue of warmability, what was

 2 going to keep her warm. And --

 3 MIKE KANE: Yeah. This is a

 4 photograph and it's numbered 3, actually if I

 5 could have that one too. Just for the record,

 6 these are photographs number 2 and number 3 of

 7 JonBenet's bed, and that, there is a pink

 8 nightgown top in there. Does that look like one

 9 that she was wearing Christmas morning?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was kind

11 of a knit long sleeve, long -- like long

12 underwear kind of top it looks like.

13 MIKE KANE: I think it's the same

14 thing that's pictured in photo number 2?


16 MIKE KANE: All right, sort of

17 looks like.

18 MIKE KANE: When JonBenet would get

19 dressed, and maybe you remember specifically on

20 Christmas morning when the kids got dressed?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I really don't, I

22 mean all I remember was the pink nightgown,

23 because I remember her running up to the bed and

24 then. It's one of few images I have of her.

25 But she probably wouldn't have gotten dressed


 1 for breakfast or anything like that it, would

 2 have been after we got through breakfast,

 3 cleaned up. I don't remember whether she was

 4 dressed when I left for the airport or not. She

 5 might have been because we might have gone out

 6 --

 7 MIKE KANE: What time was that?


 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it was 11, 12,

10 12:30, maybe in that range. 1 o'clock.

11 MIKE KANE: Would you have gone to

12 bathe that morning or she had one Christmas Eve?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: She wouldn't have

14 gotten one that morning. I remember the suit

15 for that.

16 MIKE KANE: I mean after opening

17 her presents and breakfast and whatever before

18 getting dressed to go to the Whites?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, she might have

20 before the Whites. I don't know that she did,

21 but that wouldn't have been out of the ordinary.

22 MIKE KANE: What clothes was she

23 wearing after she got dressed that morning, do

24 you remember, before she -- subsequent to the

25 Whites?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I really don't

 2 remember. I don't have any picture of that at

 3 all.

 4 MIKE KANE: Okay.

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't.

 6 MIKE KANE: And do you know whether

 7 she got herself dressed after, you know, she got

 8 out of her pajamas, would she normally do that

 9 or --

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Usually I think

11 Patsy would lay her clothes out. So I don't

12 know. More often than not, Patsy would lay the

13 clothes out to get dressed.

14 MIKE KANE: And from that I guess

15 she just needed pajamas there?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: JonBenet.

17 MIKE KANE: JonBenet?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: She would have made

19 it (INAUDIBLE).

20 (Papers being rattled).

21 MIKE KANE: There was no long

22 hamper or anything?





 1 MIKE KANE: Okay. You have heard I

 2 am sure that you had a neighbor I believe that

 3 lived in, is it Melanie Stanton, 738?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Kind of catercorner?

 5 Okay, yeah.

 6 MIKE KANE: 738 across the street

 7 from you. Whose said that she heard a scream?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I heard that a

 9 scream was heard. I assumed it was down here,

10 so this is, and I saw this when we looked at it,

11 but I always thought it was from this house, I

12 don't know why.

13 MIKE KANE: Did you know Melanie

14 Stanton?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: We met the woman who

16 lived there. We think had a son or a daughter,

17 I think it was a son, but I didn't know her. In

18 fact, I wouldn't recognize her, I don't think.

19 MIKE KANE: You haven't talk to

20 her?


22 MIKE KANE: At all?


24 MIKE KANE: So you haven't followed

25 up on that?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know.

 2 Have we?

 3 BRYAN MORGAN: I think we tried to.

 4 MIKE KANE: Do you have any further

 5 information on that?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I don't. I

 7 mean I also heard somebody heard a grate being

 8 scraped across the pavement.

 9 MIKE KANE: Who is that?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I

11 just had heard that.

12 MIKE KANE: Was that a --


14 DAVID WILLIAMS: I think that came

15 from the Internet, and I think it's supposed to

16 be Melanie Stanton's husband and I think that it

17 was, it was the banging of a grate, and I

18 believe that its basis comes from a tabloid.

19 MIKE KANE: Okay.

20 LOU SMIT: But you haven't

21 contacted the Stantons at all?

22 DAVID WILLIAMS: I think we tried.

23 LOU SMIT: So you were

24 unsuccessful.

25 BRYAN MORGAN: I believe so.


 1 BRYAN MORGAN: We will let

 2 you know, she is one of the people that

 3 wants to talk with us, I think.

 4 DAVID WILLIAMS: But I think

 5 the information originally came from the

 6 Globe, about the scream and the grate, the

 7 metal pounding against cement, something

 8 like that.

 9 LOU SMIT: Can I touch just

10 a little bit before you move on. It's the

11 nightgown. JonBenet, did she own a life-

12 sized Barbie nightgown -- life-sized

13 Barbie doll?


15 LOU SMIT: She did, big one?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: It was about that

17 tall maybe.

18 LOU SMIT: Did she used to

19 dress this Barbie nightgown in any type of

20 -- I keep saying nightgown, Barbie doll in

21 any type of clothing?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: She probably did

23 when she first got it. I don't remember that

24 she played with it much. I mean I can remember

25 the thing just sitting in the corner or


 1 something.

 2 LOU SMIT: Where is the

 3 Barbie doll kept normally, if you could

 4 show us?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, my memory of

 6 is that -- oh, man, I can't find where we are at

 7 here. Where is the second floor? I remember it

 8 kind of sitting against the wall back here in

 9 her room.

10 LOU SMIT: In her bedroom?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: In her bedroom.

12 I think that's the last time I remember seeing

13 it, which might have been, you know, months

14 before. I don't know.

15 LOU SMIT: We have heard

16 that a Barbie nightgown was one of her

17 favorite nightgowns. What can you tell us

18 about that?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I think she had a

20 Barbie nightgown, yeah, as I recall. Pink,

21 maybe.

22 LOU SMIT: The night you put

23 her in bed, do you remember anything about

24 a Barbie nightgown?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: When I put


 1 her to bed she had on, when I laid her

 2 down in the bed, she had on what she had

 3 worn to the Whites. She had that same

 4 shirt on when I found her.

 5 LOU SMIT: What I am trying

 6 to say, John, is where would that Barbie

 7 nightgown have been?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have either

 9 been in her bathroom drawer here, which a lot of

10 them were kept.

11 LOU SMIT: Under the sink?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: By the sink, I

13 believe. It could have been on the floor or it

14 would have been in the washing machine. That's

15 probably only three places it would have been.

16 LOU SMIT: I would like to

17 show you photograph number 145, and this

18 is a photograph of the wine cellar and it

19 was taken at after the body was found.

20 But John, I would like you just to take

21 look at this, and again difficult

22 photograph, but tell us what you see.

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that's looking

24 in the room from the door, I see the blanket

25 that looks like the one that was around her.


 1 There is a pink something, pink -- I think

 2 that's the nightgown or.

 3 LOU SMIT: That's what I was

 4 going to inquire about. It is a

 5 nightgown, it is a pink one, it is a

 6 Barbie nightgown?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like

 8 it's a shinier material than I remember.

 9 (INAUDIBLE). That looks more like what I

10 kind of remember was on the Barbie doll

11 itself.

12 LOU SMIT: That one does?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. If I had to

14 speculate, that looks too shiny, the material,

15 but it seems to me I remember that Barbie doll

16 had a shiny pink nightgown thing on it.

17 LOU SMIT: Why do you think,

18 John, that that's down here? I mean --

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I don't.

20 It certainly should not be. I don't

21 remember seeing it. But I was pretty

22 focused, I guess, at that time.

23 LOU SMIT: Again, you had mentioned

24 the fact that the blanket had been wrapped

25 around her almost like, what did you describe it


 1 as?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, she looked

 3 very, like someone had very carefully placed her

 4 on the blanket, wrapped the blanket around her

 5 to keep her warm.

 6 LOU SMIT: And then we have a

 7 Barbie or a nightgown. There is just

 8 suggestions that are made to that, and

 9 what's your opinion of that, and what's

10 your impression?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: God, I can only

12 imagine it. That that was something very

13 perverted.

14 LOU SMIT: That's good

15 enough. Unless you have other thoughts or

16 comments on that, John?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: No. The only

18 thought I had, normally the winter, JonBenet's

19 nightgowns were cloth and they weren't those

20 silky, because they weren't very warm. And they

21 were always a cloth or a flannel kind of

22 material. That looks like a silky kind of

23 nightgown, and -- I don't even know she had --

24 see, my recollection is Barbie nightgown, she

25 had a lot of these little nightgowns with faces


 1 on them and stuff, and I kind of remember a

 2 Barbie one, but it was like a cloth nightgown

 3 that had printed, a printed Barbie face on it or

 4 something.

 5 LOU SMIT: And this was more

 6 like the one on the doll?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: That looks more

 8 dressy. That looks like something that might

 9 have been on the doll.

10 LOU SMIT: Mike, do you have

11 anything?


13 LOU SMIT: Well then, I think we

14 can take, just let this grow into that.


16 MIKE KANE: Yesterday you talked

17 about Patsy, after obviously her surgery, she

18 had no natural estrogen and couldn't take he

19 estrogen supplements because of the cancer, you

20 were worried about that. Was there any other

21 supplement that she took to counteract the lack

22 of estrogen?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, not that I

24 specifically remember. It seems she took a lot

25 of natural things. She went to a, I think she


 1 got some counseling on this at NIH when she

 2 left.

 3 MIKE KANE: I think that she

 4 probably would. Were you part of that?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, not, no, no. I

 6 wasn't.

 7 MIKE KANE: Tell you she had to

 8 take certain type of supplements to --


10 JOHN RAMSEY: As I recall, they

11 said okay, you're done, bye. She said well,

12 wait a minute, you know, got to be -- what do I

13 do now, other take some of this or that, but you

14 know. I don't remember what it was. She would

15 remember.

16 MIKE KANE: All right?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: They pretty much

18 just said bye, you're done and she pressed to

19 say okay, wait a minute, there is got to be more

20 to this than that.

21 MIKE KANE: Okay. When you saw

22 JonBenet in longjohns that morning, what did you

23 think? It wasn't her pajamas.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: On the morning I

25 found her?



 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember she had

 3 the top on, she had worn to bed, that she had

 4 worn when I laid her down. Her lower body was

 5 clothed, but I don't remember, seems like it was

 6 a white pull-up.

 7 MIKE KANE: Like longjohn type?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Like longjohns,

 9 right.

10 MIKE KANE: Not pajamas?


12 MIKE KANE: Think about that.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, they were like

14 white tights or something. As I remember. And

15 she looked normally dressed. She looked --

16 MIKE KANE: Was she -- you know

17 what longjohns are?


19 MIKE KANE: What are under --


21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, they might

22 have been, I am sure, you know, I mean you have

23 them, but I mean my memory of it is they were

24 white, she had it looked like she had underwear

25 on under those. She looked normal in that


 1 respect. I didn't see any -- clothes weren't

 2 askew.

 3 MIKE KANE: Without dragging out

 4 photographs or anything like that, but would she

 5 normally have, when Patsy put her pajamas on put

 6 a pair of long underwear on her?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: She might have. I

 8 mean, it was, you know, it was winter. Usually

 9 when she conks out like that, before she gets to

10 bed, we get her comfortable, but we don't get

11 her nightgown on her all the time. So like

12 Patsy obviously left that shirt on. I don't

13 remember if she had those tights on or the

14 longjohns on under her black pants. Patsy just

15 took the black pants off and put her bed or she

16 pulled those on, but...

17 MIKE KANE: What I am getting at,

18 the person that did this had put her in those.


20 MIKE KANE: I mean would those be

21 unusual for her to be wearing --

22 JOHN RAMSEY: No, they wouldn't.

23 MIKE KANE: -- longjohns?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: It's with the feet?

25 MIKE KANE: I am not talking pajama


 1 bottoms, I am talking about longjohns that are

 2 just, you know, like the proverbial flap on

 3 back. I am not saying they had it, they had a

 4 flap, but those kind of --

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: It wouldn't be, no,

 6 it would be unusual for her to have those on.

 7 Leggings, kind of just a regular nightgown. She

 8 didn't always wear a nightgown to bed. If she

 9 was awake when she went to bed, she got into a

10 nightgown and brushed her teeth, got into bed.

11 But if she was asleep, we usually just tried to

12 make her comfortable, make sure she was warm.

13 Didn't go into the trouble of getting her into a

14 nightgown, necessarily. Sometimes she had a tee

15 shirt on.

16 MIKE KANE: Pajama bottom?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Pajama bottoms,

18 maybe, yes.

19 MIKE KANE: All right. Are there

20 any big secrets you kept from Patsy?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: No. No. Not that I

22 can think of.

23 MIKE KANE: Do you think there was

24 any big secrets she ever kept from you?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: No. No. I doubt


 1 that very much.

 2 MIKE KANE: Why? Why is that?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, you live with

 4 somebody for 18 years, it's pretty hard to keep

 5 secrets for one thing, I guess. I don't know

 6 what a big secret is but --

 7 MIKE KANE: How did you keep the

 8 Gloria Williams secret from Cindy?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that was

10 ultimately not possible, obviously.

11 MIKE KANE: But I think you said

12 two years?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: No. We were

14 divorced after two years, I think. But I think

15 that affair probably went on for eight months or

16 a year maybe. Before it exploded.

17 MIKE KANE: Before she found out

18 about it?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

20 MIKE KANE: But you were able to

21 maintain it for that period of time?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: (Nodding).

23 MIKE KANE: We talked yesterday

24 about I think you said it wasn't a problem that

25 you were aware of, and there has been a lot of


 1 publicity about that?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: It was total

 3 nonsense, but ask the question.

 4 MIKE KANE: Okay. Did you ever

 5 have discussions -- you said before it never

 6 came up in discussions with Patsy. What about

 7 subsequently with all the publicity about it?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Just I mean it

 9 was one of those ridiculous tabloid pieces of

10 data that was, you know, served.

11 MIKE KANE: Would it be a big

12 surprise to find out if that was in fact the

13 case, that you did have a problem with it?



16 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I mean all my

17 children wet the bed. It was not a big deal.

18 MIKE KANE: But it would be a

19 surprise to you if you found out that in fact it

20 was more of a regular occurrence than what you

21 know right now?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably just no,

23 I mean, if it was every night, I didn't know

24 that. But. No, just part of raising a child.

25 MIKE KANE: I mean but the fact


 1 that you didn't know about -- I am not talking

 2 about would it be a surprise that she did it.

 3 But the fact that say a couple of times a week,

 4 she wet the bed, that seems to be a lot more

 5 than what you were aware of. Would you be

 6 surprised if you found out it was more than what

 7 you were aware of?


 9 MIKE KANE: And why is that?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Because it was a,

11 it's a minor, it's a nonissue. You know, if she

12 was wetting her bed every night when she was 11

13 years old, I think we have a problem we need to

14 look into medically, but it just wasn't an

15 issue. It wasn't a big deal.

16 MIKE KANE: You said that you were

17 aware that there was plastic, her mattress was

18 wrapped in plastic. Did you put that on there?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know.

20 Probably did, but I don't remember.

21 MIKE KANE: You said that you

22 thought, I think you said all the kids had that.

23 Did Burke have that on his bed?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, he's had it I am

25 sure, yes. But I don't remember whether he did


 1 you know, then or not. But -- that's a very,

 2 for us, just a -- hard not just to discount,

 3 because it's so ridiculous. I mean it's

 4 just --

 5 MIKE KANE: Why you do I think --


 7 JOHN RAMSEY: It's just not an

 8 issue for us as a family. I mean Melinda wet

 9 her bed until she was older than, I don't

10 remember how old, but it was older than -- if

11 anybody had a bed wetting problem you would have

12 said maybe it was Melinda, because it went

13 longer, but it was --

14 MIKE KANE: But this is the first

15 one that Patsy had to deal with?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean Burke

17 probably did too. No, Burke did. I know he

18 did. You could tell that, you knew if you came

19 downstairs and he was in the other bed,

20 guaranteed what happened. Or he would come

21 upstairs, crawl in bed with us. And have a

22 clean pair of underwear on. So he wet his bed

23 too.

24 MIKE KANE: And I think you have

25 already answered this. You didn't have any


 1 discussions with your wife about the urinary

 2 tract infections that your daughter had.


 4 MIKE KANE: What do you know about

 5 Mrs. Ramsey having panic attacks?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, I don't know

 7 what a panic attack is, I guess, for sure. How

 8 would you -- describe it.

 9 MIKE KANE: Just a feeling that you

10 can't control the moment, overreacting to

11 something maybe more than would be within a

12 normal range. Just feeling, I can't handle the

13 situation.

14 JOHN RAMSEY: She is as stable as

15 a rock.

16 MIKE KANE: So you have never known

17 her to have those?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: (No response).

19 MIKE KANE: Never known her to be

20 treated for those?


22 MIKE KANE: Never known her to take

23 any medication for those?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: (Nodding).

25 MIKE KANE: Would it surprise you


 1 to find out that she did?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. That would.

 3 MIKE KANE: Did you ever hear the

 4 drug Xanax, X-A-N-A-X?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: (No response).

 6 MIKE KANE: Ever known Ms. Ramsey

 7 to take that?


 9 MIKE KANE: I got to ask these

10 questions. You have seen other circumstances

11 where like the Susan Smith case in North

12 Carolina, are you aware of that something

13 totally out of it what any of us could ever

14 imagine?


16 MIKE KANE: What do you think of

17 that?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: It's horribly

19 tragic. You know, we have lost two children.

20 And would give anything to have them back,

21 anything. I would be out on the street with no

22 possessions to have my children back. And

23 to -- it's -- we cannot fathom, I cannot

24 fathom how anyone could feel that way about a

25 child.


 1 MIKE KANE: Yet it has?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I know. And it's,

 3 that's horribly tragic.

 4 MIKE KANE: I know early on when

 5 you were describing to Lou, you know, your

 6 theories of what might have happened, and one of

 7 the suggestions about Mrs. Ramsey being involved

 8 in this, you said it was preposterous, what do

 9 you base that on?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: She lived for the

11 children. Period, pure and simple. She was

12 given a gift to live after facing death and she

13 was there for her children.

14 MIKE KANE: Has the thought ever

15 crossed your mind in the last 18 months, or the

16 possibility that this was an accident?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: No, no.

18 MIKE KANE: Or it started out as an

19 accident?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean how could it,

21 how it, I mean I saw some dippy FBI guy who said

22 this might have been just the outcome of an

23 accident. The child was strangled, her head was

24 bashed in, that is not an accident. No,

25 absolutely not. I would have given my life for


 1 JonBenet in the instant and I regret that I was

 2 unable to. Patsy feels the same way. We know

 3 that much about that.

 4 MIKE KANE: Do you ever give

 5 thought to maybe this was the result of a some

 6 kind of a demon?


 8 MIKE KANE: Demonic?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: (Shaking head).

10 Somebody, yeah. This is a creature that's out

11 there.

12 MIKE KANE: But it's never, you

13 have never thought of all the suggestions, in

14 all the finger pointing, the thought never

15 entered your mind that maybe it was a product

16 of --


18 JOHN RAMSEY: I can tell you this,

19 I can tell you I have suspicion, and I have

20 thought about almost everybody we knew, because

21 you just don't trust people anymore. People

22 that I would never, you think could have been,

23 you know, John Fernie, oh, God, no, but how do

24 you know. I have never, ever had that thought

25 about Patsy. Or Burke.


 1 MIKE KANE: This is a big, big if.

 2 I mean, if, if it were to come out that there

 3 was some pathology Patsy was going through,

 4 caused her to do this, would you feel an

 5 obligation to protect her rather than find out

 6 that that was what killed your daughter?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: As a very big if,

 8 if that was what happened, I would not protect

 9 her from or protect that fact.

10 MIKE KANE: Knowing the truth about

11 her?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Knowing the

13 truth. Absolutely not.

14 MIKE KANE: Final question. Is

15 there anything I have asked or said or done that

16 you feel makes you not want to give follow-up --


18 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I mean, you

19 know, we, we are looking forward to being here

20 and I absolutely want to continue an open

21 dialogue. You know, probably figure that out,

22 so Bryan doesn't --


24 JOHN RAMSEY: Got to fire him,

25 I fire him. I probably should do that. But no,


 1 we -- you know, we are never, if somebody -- I

 2 don't know. We have said to ourselves, look,

 3 there is never going to be a victory in this,

 4 there is no victory, but if we can find who did

 5 this, there could be some closure we can

 6 understand, what do we do, if anything, so our

 7 -- you know, the only thing that's important to

 8 us is our existing children. And finding who

 9 did this.

10 MIKE KANE: And that's what's most

11 important to you, you use the word us what --

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy.

13 MIKE KANE: What about you?


15 MIKE KANE: You personally?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, if I had to put

17 those in order, I say and I find myself saying

18 this, look, you got three wonderful children,

19 you pick yourself up and get on with it. They

20 need you. So and that obviously has got to be

21 number one. But number 2 is who the hell did

22 this. And number 3 is let's make something good

23 come out of this. That's a contribution to

24 society.




 2 LOU SMIT: I think we are out of

 3 time. And we will be back.

 4 (End of tape).























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19 JUNE 25, 1998


































 1 LOU SMIT: We can get started. It

 2 is right at 2 o'clock, Thursday the 25th and

 3 everyone is in the room that has been in here

 4 before. And I would like to start this part of

 5 the questioning off just to show a couple of

 6 pictures. And again, we are dealing with crime

 7 scene photographs that were taken somewhat

 8 shortly after the technicians arrived, within

 9 the first three or four days, anyway.

10 So I'd like to show photograph

11 number 201 and I would like to show that to Mr.

12 Ramsey. And ask if he can identify where that

13 is, and maybe you can point to it in diagram

14 here.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well back, this

16 corner of the house right here.

17 LOU SMIT: Which would be the

18 southwest corner of the house?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

20 LOU SMIT: And that's near the

21 grate area?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. The dog dish

23 sprinkler head, it's a bucket with some ivies,

24 looks like evergreen cuttings.

25 LOU SMIT: That's what I would like


 1 to ask you about. The blue bucket with the

 2 contents is located near the grate. Can you

 3 tell me anything about that and maybe how it got

 4 in that location and who put these items in

 5 there?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I did

 7 not. It's full of water, as if the cuttings

 8 were a table decoration or something. Patsy

 9 might have done that or somebody. If it was

10 just trash that was stuffed in the bucket or

11 basket, I don't.

12 LOU SMIT: I would like to know who

13 put items in there. So far we haven't been able

14 to identify who that is. And somebody would

15 have had to be in close proximity to your house

16 in order to do that.

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think I did.

18 I don't -- I don't remember. I don't recognize

19 the bucket. It's a while ago. No, like I say,

20 I didn't do it. I don't know -- I am sure

21 that's our container but.

22 LOU SMIT: If we can try and answer

23 that question, I would like to know.


25 LOU SMIT: I am sure they are shown


 1 in the same photographs here.

 2 MR. MORGAN: If they are showing it

 3 to Patsy, that's about the only other source of

 4 information.

 5 LOU SMIT: Then I would like to

 6 show a couple of more photographs. Now these

 7 are photographs again right in the early morning

 8 hours pretty close to the kidnapping time.

 9 Those are photographs 102 and 103. They are

10 outside photographs but they show vehicles and

11 you know probably the neighborhood as well as

12 anyone. Maybe you will remember it, maybe you

13 won't, but I would like you to look at these and

14 see if you might identify --

15 JOHN RAMSEY: The white Volvo in

16 102 is Priscilla White's, I believe. This car

17 in front with that funny paint job is I believe

18 Luke's that lives in the house two down from us.

19 I can't tell what -- I don't recognize the car

20 behind Priscilla's. The car behind that further

21 down the street, I don't -- I don't recognize or

22 I don't know who that is. This was taken later

23 it looks to me, because Priscilla's car is gone.

24 I still don't recognize the car in

25 103, it was perhaps behind Priscilla's.


 1 LOU SMIT: I am sorry?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Priscilla's

 3 car is still in the picture in 103 it looks

 4 like. And there is a car behind that which I

 5 don't recognize it. The one behind the

 6 (INAUDIBLE) nor do I recognize that one.

 7 LOU SMIT: The blue one that's

 8 shown in 103, just the front end is showing?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

10 LOU SMIT: That wouldn't be --


12 LOU SMIT: That wouldn't be


14 JOHN RAMSEY: This could have been

15 Fleet's Volkswagen, I don't know. He had a blue

16 Volkswagen, bark blue, dark gray maybe

17 Volkswagen, that might be his.

18 LOU SMIT: Do you know anyone that

19 owns a black Jaguar?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Late model like XJ6

21 or a later model?

22 LOU SMIT: Right.

23 JOHN RAMSEY: No. They had a

24 white one, it was kind of an unusual color,

25 gold, it wasn't green, you know (INAUDIBLE).


 1 But I don't remember.

 2 LOU SMIT: Did they have a Jaguar

 3 convertible?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: They do, yeah.

 5 LOU SMIT: Do you know anyone that

 6 owns a --

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Hold on, yes, I do.

 8 There is a guy that had an apartment or

 9 apartments in Barbara Fernie's mother's complex,

10 that we looked at renting, this was after this

11 happened, for a place to live. And he had a

12 black Jaguar I believe.

13 LOU SMIT: There was one seen in

14 the neighborhood, the Whites on that morning or

15 that evening so --

16 JOHN RAMSEY: That's the only

17 black Jaguar I have seen in Boulder. This guy's

18 got to be a short guy. He was in real estate.

19 He was an (INAUDIBLE) but just peculiar,

20 wasn't -- I mean --


22 JOHN RAMSEY: No, but the Fernies

23 might, because I think they put -- I can't think

24 of the name of the apartment complex, but it's

25 where Barbara's mother had an apartment. In


 1 Boulder. He had to leave -- I think he had left

 2 it there where he had a sublease perhaps.

 3 LOU SMIT: How about anybody that

 4 owns an Astro type van, do you have any friends

 5 that own that or people from Access that --

 6 there was an Astro type van seen in the area in

 7 the report.

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: What color?

 9 LOU SMIT: There was no color.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: The Access had a van

11 that was a white Chrysler mini van. Astro van?

12 No, I don't.

13 LOU SMIT: Is it possible to

14 tell --

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Except it might be a

16 gray Caravan Fifth Avenue, the one going down

17 the street in 102, which would have been, could

18 have been Fleet's. He had a gray Caravan.

19 LOU SMIT: Okay. I would like to

20 talk to you about John Andrew's suitcase.

21 That's a suitcase that you thought might be the

22 one in photograph number 248. This was a

23 suitcase in the train room that you said you

24 moved a little bit.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.


 1 LOU SMIT: And I would like to ask

 2 you just some questions. Do you know what a

 3 sham is or a duvet?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: (Shaking head).

 5 LOU SMIT: Two type of things?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Sham is a blanket,

 7 right? But duvet, I don't know.

 8 LOU SMIT: Do you recall any shams

 9 or duvets being in your house? I know if you

10 don't know what a duvet is, you probably don't

11 know to say it was in there but --

12 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't.

13 A sham, I mean I don't know if I

14 know what a sham was, a small blanket. That's

15 purely a guess, but we had lots of little

16 blankets and stuff like that around.

17 LOU SMIT: How about a Dr. Suess

18 book, do you remember anything in a Dr. Suess

19 book, either associated with John Andrew or

20 associated with JonBenet or anything that --

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had lots of

22 kids' books. We had bookshelves full of them.

23 I know that they had -- I know I read to 'em,

24 Dr. Suess books, so I am sure they were there.

25 LOU SMIT: Do you know why there


 1 would be a sham and duvet and a Dr. Suess book

 2 in that suitcase?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Could you tell me

 4 what a duvet is?

 5 LOU SMIT: A duvet is also

 6 something that fits on like on a couch or almost

 7 a little blanket that fits on a couch.

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: A square or does it

 9 fit?

10 LOU SMIT: Yes. I have never seen

11 this, I don't have a photograph of it, but can

12 you think of why there would be a sham or duvet

13 in John Andrew's suitcase along with a Dr. Suess

14 book?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: No. My recollection

16 of where that suitcase came from was he brought

17 some clothes from Atlanta, where he went to

18 school, and when the kid left to go to school be

19 and every port in a storm in his apartment, and

20 it ended up and it was in his room for a while,

21 then it was in the laundry room outside of his

22 room for a while, and then I carried it

23 downstairs. I presumed it was empty.

24 LOU SMIT: I appreciate if you

25 wouldn't just talk to John Andrew about that


 1 right now. I would like to ask him that.

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: You want me to talk

 3 to him right now?

 4 LOU SMIT: We can talk to him

 5 either today or tomorrow, that's fine.

 6 VOICE: You said dump truck.

 7 VOICE: I would like to talk to him

 8 and ask him that question. So there is no

 9 misunderstanding.

10 VOICE: We will arrange that.

11 LOU SMIT: So that was just a

12 question I had on that.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: It seems a bit odd,

14 I don't know why it would be -- (INAUDIBLE) --

15 LOU SMIT: Okay, we are going to

16 talk a little bit if we can about the wine

17 cellar. Now, did you -- what -- how often would

18 you go into the wine cellar, let's say before

19 the 26th? We touched on this yesterday. But --

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, throughout the

21 year, hardly at all. I mean the only things

22 that were down there that we would get at, I

23 think we had some wine stored in there, just in

24 boxes at one time. I don't know if there was

25 any -- I don't know if there is any left or not.


 1 But we would get a case of wine and we would put

 2 it down there. Cigars I stuck down there.

 3 Um, and of course, you know,

 4 Christmas stuff out once a year, put it back.

 5 Patsy usually I think certainly that year did it

 6 or had it done, so I don't remember ever getting

 7 in there to get the Christmas stuff out. That's

 8 about it. We rarely went in that room.

 9 LOU SMIT: Have you ever been asked

10 to make up a list of people who you thought

11 could have ever been in that wine cellar?


13 LOU SMIT: Is there a way that

14 perhaps you could sit down, it's a little

15 time-consuming right now, but at some point

16 write down everybody's name that you may have

17 thought could have possibly been in there, let's

18 say within three months, let's start off with

19 that?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay. Went into the

21 room?

22 LOU SMIT: Into the room. And that

23 may even be contractors or --

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, I will do that.

25 LOU SMIT: What have you heard


 1 about Hi-Tech shoes?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Just that there was

 3 a print found, a Hi-Tech boot, and that's all.

 4 LOU SMIT: Do you own a Hi-Tech

 5 type shoe, or have you ever owned one?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't -- not

 7 that I know of. I mean, I never have been -- I

 8 never paid much attention to brands of boots I

 9 had. I had some -- I had some running -- not

10 running shoes. Hiking boots. I think I looked

11 at those and they were -- they weren't Hi-Tech

12 or anything.

13 LOU SMIT: You have already looked

14 at those?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I had some

16 kind of dress boots that were more for -- but

17 they weren't Hi-Tech boots. So I mean, I don't

18 think we had anything like that. We had -- I

19 had some of these felt-lined like duck boots.

20 LOU SMIT: If we ever ask you to

21 bring these items in, would you do that to make

22 sure that we got them?


24 LOU SMIT: And there is a reason

25 for that, of course. How about Patsy?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't -- I am sure

 2 she doesn't. I mean we were aware that that was

 3 an issue, I think we looked and thought about

 4 it. But to my knowledge, she didn't or doesn't.

 5 LOU SMIT: Mike, what was that shop

 6 in Vail or something?

 7 MIKE KANE: Pepe's. I think that

 8 was the name of it.

 9 LOU SMIT: Pepe's, is that in Vail?

10 VOICE: Yeah.

11 LOU SMIT: Did she ever shop --

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't --

13 Patsy's -- I don't remember the last time she

14 was even in Vail. Pepe's doesn't ring a bell.

15 LOU SMIT: I am going to show you a

16 series of photographs, okay. And see if you

17 recognize a print of the photographs, they are

18 foot prints or shoe prints, and I would just

19 like to show that to you if I can, and see if

20 you might recognize maybe by looking at shoe

21 prints, sometimes you know what the bottom of a

22 sole looks like, if you have something similar

23 to that or even maybe one of your friends?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Where was the print

25 found?


 1 LOU SMIT: In the wine cellar.

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: In the wine cellar?

 3 LOU SMIT: Yes. So I would like to

 4 show you a series of prints and it's starting

 5 with -- it's 257, 258, 259, 260, 261 and 262.

 6 This is the front, this is the back (indicating)

 7 and just start with 259. If you will do that,

 8 Mr. Ramsey.


10 LOU SMIT: What do you see?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: I see high, looks

12 like high something you see in a square block

13 with, I can't tell if it's raised or lettering.

14 LOU SMIT: If you look at a

15 photograph, see something to make a comment on

16 just --


18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I think what

19 would be -- I can't tell what that is. I don't

20 know if that's sand or is that mildewy stuff

21 that was in the basement. Looks like there is

22 some -- some of the Christmas tree --

23 LOU SMIT: Needles?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: -- needles, yeah,

25 that were laying in there. It almost looks like


 1 the wall to me rather than the floor. Is it the

 2 floor?

 3 LOU SMIT: Yes.


 5 LOU SMIT: If that's your

 6 impression?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it looks

 8 rough. I don't remember the floor being that

 9 rough, unless it was back in the corner. Back

10 in the --

11 LOU SMIT: Pointing.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Back in this corner.

13 There was a lot of moisture that came in there.

14 We had, in fact at one time we had a leak and I

15 extended the drainpipe. The down spout that

16 came in, probably right there and I extended it

17 out, which stopped the leaking, but the down

18 spout just emptied out in the ground and ended

19 up in this part of the basement and this kind of

20 looks like that was kind of a nasty end to the

21 wine cellar.

22 LOU SMIT: When did you do that?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: A year or two ago.

24 LOU SMIT: I mean, was it, how long

25 before Christmas?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I am sorry, a

 2 year or two before Christmas. I did it some

 3 time ago.

 4 LOU SMIT: Did you ever clean or

 5 sweep that wine cellar for any reason or know

 6 that it had been?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was

 8 absolutely full of junk when we bought the house

 9 and lumber and old windows and we had all this

10 stuff hauled away. I think I had swept it out,

11 yeah.

12 LOU SMIT: Do you know when?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it would have

14 been in early -- early in the ownership of the

15 house, as we --

16 LOU SMIT: Okay?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: -- cleaned up the

18 basement.

19 LOU SMIT: And that would have been

20 when, what year?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, '92, probably

22 '93 maybe. '92 most likely. Because the room

23 was just nasty. I had to get all this stuff out

24 and then I discovered a little safe that was

25 down there. And I cleaned it out.


 1 So I think I cleaned it up. I

 2 don't know whether I did it after that but I am

 3 sure it was cleaned at one point. The painter

 4 stored his paint cans in there. (INAUDIBLE) was

 5 in that room. Generally, where was this, in

 6 that back corner, that area?

 7 LOU SMIT: It was just right there

 8 in the room. I would say that it's more not

 9 right close to the wall.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: As I say, it, things

11 tended to kind of get stuck in here, if you put

12 anything in there, because --

13 LOU SMIT: That would be towards

14 the west wall there?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. There were

16 some screens stored in there, a door.

17 LOU SMIT: It would have been more

18 in the open area?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. That he I

20 didn't -- (INAUDIBLE) was in and out of that

21 room and was in and out of here, you know, he

22 didn't ever go back. I think -- well, I will go

23 make a list, but --

24 LOU SMIT: Yes, try to make a list

25 of everyone you can think of that's been in


 1 there.


 3 LOU SMIT: Because I know the

 4 police have really done some work on collecting

 5 shoes. That was a tremendous, tremendous

 6 undertaking that they did, because they, you

 7 know, all of the contractors and everything, did

 8 -- a lot of work went into that, just a

 9 tremendous amount. But maybe you can think of

10 other people that went in there, or Patsy.

11 And would people normally go in

12 there or would they --

13 JOHN RAMSEY: There's no reason to

14 go in there. It was -- I don't know if it used

15 to be a coal storage or something that just was

16 a deed end room. It was, I think there was one

17 light, and it was -- that was it. There was no

18 reason to be -- the types of people that would

19 have known that we know that was there would

20 have been say the painter, because he put his

21 stuff in there. Whoever helped Patsy get the

22 Christmas stuff out, whether it was Linda

23 Hoffman or Rob or Father Rol or whoever it was,

24 but --



 1 JOHN RAMSEY: In that room. I

 2 don't know for sure. They were in the house for

 3 over Thanksgiving for several days and we went

 4 home, so it's, it's not out of the question.

 5 They certainly could have been in there.

 6 LOU SMIT: Make a list, that would

 7 be a helpful thing.

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: We had the water

 9 faucet worked on, they had to have gone down to

10 the basement to turn the water off.

11 LOU SMIT: Those were the plumbers?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: The plumbers. That

13 valve was right there by the steam unit, which

14 is right by that room.

15 LOU SMIT: Where would that be if

16 you can could point that out to me?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, the cut off

18 valve for the water is right there.

19 LOU SMIT: That's by the window

20 leading out to the boiler room?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Right, that's the

22 window going out to the front of the house.

23 LOU SMIT: What used to be

24 connected to that opening vent at that window?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know if it


 1 ever was or that vent -- that room gets very

 2 hot, that boiler sitting. I would assume they

 3 just put that vent in there to allow some air to

 4 get out of that window.

 5 LOU SMIT: And that leads outside

 6 and to the east; is that correct?

 7 Okay, which is the front of the

 8 house?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. We had a

10 psychic call us and say that she had this image

11 that there was something significant about a gas

12 meter or electrical meter, and there is a gas

13 meter that sits right by that window. Yeah.

14 It's either gas or water. But -- I figured that

15 (INAUDIBLE) that window would be very difficult

16 to get in. Nobody even very far (INAUDIBLE.)

17 LOU SMIT: There is one photograph

18 here, some kind of fancy type technology or --

19 VOICE: I believe the flash just

20 didn't come off.

21 VOICE: Is there more than one that

22 we are looking at?

23 VOICE: One last question, do you

24 have any photographs of what a Hi-Tech boot

25 looks like?


 1 LOU SMIT: I do, but I don't have

 2 it here with me.

 3 MIKE KANE: There is all different

 4 kinds.



 7 LOU SMIT: Many different styles.

 8 LOU SMIT: I don't know, if you

 9 could take a look at, there is another print

10 there. You picked up a Hi-Tech print. I was

11 just wondering if the sole pattern on that may

12 look familiar to you. It would be on the

13 photograph, let's see, 262, you might look at

14 that.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Is that this pattern

16 here?

17 LOU SMIT: Yes.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, no, it doesn't

19 look like anything that we had or would have

20 had. I don't -- this doesn't mean anything to

21 me.

22 LOU SMIT: Just a couple of

23 questions and these are just miscellaneous

24 questions that I had. In what area of the house

25 do you think that JonBenet received the injuries


 1 to her head? This is just from your own --

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I guess my

 3 impression is that it was in the basement. But

 4 that's just purely an assumption. We didn't

 5 hear a thing. I think if she had cried out or

 6 -- you know, we would have heard that. I didn't

 7 know she had any head injury at all. It

 8 wasn't -- I just didn't see --

 9 LOU SMIT: You had no knowledge?


11 RESPONSE.) I don't know. I just, that's

12 something that's been difficult for me to think

13 about it, is what exactly happened.

14 LOU SMIT: And where?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: And where.

16 LOU SMIT: Do you think that the

17 head injury occurred at the same place as the

18 other injuries, say with the literature?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean it's just no

20 reason to -- to know that. I mean I guess --

21 well, like I say, I just -- that's very

22 difficult to think about and imagine, but I

23 wondered whether the head injury didn't kill her

24 and after that they strangled her.

25 LOU SMIT: All right. This is


 1 getting way off of that. Do you know who

 2 brought John Andrew to the airport, when he left

 3 for Atlanta?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it probably

 5 was Melinda and Stuart, who were with him. You

 6 mean to come to Minneapolis?

 7 LOU SMIT: No, I am talking about

 8 Boulder to Atlanta.

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: He -- oh, leaving

10 for Christmas?

11 LOU SMIT: Yes, leaving for

12 Christmas.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. He would

14 either usually take the airporter. He usually

15 took the airporter. But I know he left his car

16 parked I think at friends, driveway kind of

17 thing.

18 LOU SMIT: You don't know the name

19 of the friend?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't, but John

21 would, I am sure.

22 LOU SMIT: How did Don Paugh get to

23 the airport when he went to Atlanta, did anybody

24 bring him?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: He would either take


 1 a limo, probably took a limo. I don't know,

 2 that's typically I think how he would get to the

 3 airport. I don't think he drove his car very

 4 often.

 5 LOU SMIT: Did he ever live with

 6 anybody in his apartment or was it just him

 7 alone?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: No, that was kind of

 9 our corporate apartment. I lived there for a

10 while. Patsy and I and Burke lived there for a

11 while. Jeff Merrick (phonetic) lived there for

12 a while. Michael Bernard (phonetic) lived there

13 for a while. Curt Fisher lived there for a

14 while, a fellow we hired.

15 LOU SMIT: Did anyone live with Don

16 Paugh, in other words could somebody have been

17 at his apartment or known that he was leaving

18 and that the family was leaving for Atlanta and

19 in that apartment, did he live with anybody?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I recall.

21 People -- that were there were, you know, they

22 were instead of staying at a hotel they would

23 stay at the apartment for a week or two or a

24 month until they got their own place. I don't

25 think anybody was there then. The only person


 1 that could have been, I think the last person

 2 that kind of went through that apartment was

 3 Michael Bernard. But I think he had his own

 4 apartment, whatever.

 5 LOU SMIT: How about your church.

 6 Do you have any suspicion of anybody in your

 7 church that may have, because you went to church

 8 all the time when JonBenet was there and she

 9 would have been visible to somebody in your

10 church, any suspicions of anybody?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: We didn't have any

12 suspicions of course while we were going. It

13 was a congregation of, it was a pretty mixed

14 congregation, in terms of families, single

15 people, you know, street people would come in

16 and go to church.

17 We had this foyer dinner group at

18 our house prior to Christmas. There was

19 probably 30 or 40 church people there. Many of

20 whom I had never met before. There were a

21 couple of odd ducks that were there.

22 LOU SMIT: Could you add names?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: There was one guy

24 that kind of wears a little cap, like almost

25 like a Jewish --


 1 LOU SMIT: How about --

 2 VOICE: Yarmulka?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Yarmulka, yeah, but

 4 it's a little bigger than that. Kind of covers

 5 his whole head. Older guy, maybe 55, 60, 65, in

 6 that range.

 7 LOU SMIT: Could you recognize the

 8 name --

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know if I

10 would recognize the name. I am sure Father Rol

11 or somebody if I described that, they would know

12 who it was.

13 LOU SMIT: What makes you

14 suspicious of him?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I talked to him for

16 a while and he just -- he just was a little

17 strange. You know, I just, some of the things

18 he said. Nothing about children or any of that.

19 LOU SMIT: Was JonBenet visible at

20 that time in the house?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I am sure she was,

22 yeah. She -- but I can't visually remember her

23 being there, but I am sure she was. Had to be.

24 LOU SMIT: Did you see this man in

25 church before?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I see him in

 2 church. He was, I guess, the one that just sat

 3 and talked to for a while and he seemed a little

 4 bit of an odd duck.

 5 There was a fellow that surfaced

 6 later that I am sure you guys are aware of or,

 7 because he -- he probably said he saw some stuff

 8 at our house, and I forget his name, but he was

 9 a little bit of a weirdo also. I didn't know

10 him before, but afterwards, we kind of became

11 aware of him. And I guess we had some worries

12 about him, and he would approach me in church

13 and -- afterwards, and just you know, be very

14 sympathetic and --

15 LOU SMIT: Did he ever tell you

16 that he had seen anything at your house?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know whether

18 he told me directly. We had gotten some

19 information that he was seen in a pickup truck

20 in the alley and had washed it or something and

21 the police were watching him at the same time

22 and he was odd.

23 LOU SMIT: Jack Logan?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, Jack Logan,

25 yeah.


 1 LOU SMIT: Did you know him

 2 personally in church or before that time?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so.

 4 LOU SMIT: How about a fellow named

 5 Dan Burns, do you know a Dan Burns?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: The name rings a

 7 bell, but I don't -- I can't -- I can't tell

 8 why. You know, that name sounds familiar.

 9 LOU SMIT: He may have been at the

10 foyer group.

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Is that right? I

12 wonder if that was the guy with the hat. That

13 kind of -- that could be his name. It's

14 possible.

15 LOU SMIT: The reason I mention

16 these names it's not because they are suspects,

17 but just because names come up, sometimes you

18 associate a name and something will click and

19 you will know that in the next --

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Another

21 thing that happened that night was, there was a

22 couple that moved in down the street in 777,

23 15th, that had lost a child, and somebody that

24 was at the church party said gee, I know these

25 people, they are really nice, I would like to


 1 invite them up and have you meet them. They

 2 came up that evening.

 3 LOU SMIT: They lived there?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, I don't

 5 remember the names. Arno (phonetic) -- yeah,

 6 yes, Arnold, unusual name. So this lady or

 7 couple, I think it was a couple, invited them

 8 up, they came up about 9:30, 10 o'clock, kind of

 9 as the church party was winding down and they

10 stayed in the kitchen, talked for half hour, 45

11 minutes, and I had never met them before.

12 And --

13 LOU SMIT: When was that foyer

14 party?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: That was at the

16 foyer party.

17 LOU SMIT: When was it?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: That evening,

19 probably 9:30, 10. Gosh, I don't know. I could

20 look at the calendar, but it had been like

21 the --

22 LOU SMIT: In December?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: In December, yeah.

24 In mid December.

25 LOU SMIT: Who is Rick and Ruth


 1 Irwin?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know.

 3 LOU SMIT: That name familiar?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it isn't.

 5 LOU SMIT: Maybe the (INAUDIBLE).

 6 (PAPERS RATTLING). Does that name ring a bell

 7 with you?


 9 LOU SMIT: Do you think they could

10 have been at this foyer party?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: There were a lot of

12 people there I didn't know. Is there -- well,

13 um, maybe the lady that put that together.

14 Carolyn, Catherine, Carolyn, Catherine. Her

15 husband was like the treasurer of the church.

16 She organized that, she did that foyer group

17 stuff.

18 LOU SMIT: So that name isn't

19 familiar with you right off the top of your

20 head?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: No. She might have

22 had a list of the groups.

23 LOU SMIT: Do you know a Bob Tofte,

24 T-O-F-T-E?



 1 LOU SMIT: How about Randy Simmons,

 2 the photographer?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I have heard his

 4 name of course since then. I couldn't tell

 5 you -- I couldn't -- I don't think I have ever

 6 met him or could identify his picture, but I

 7 think he was a photographer that Patsy used.

 8 LOU SMIT: Anything you can tell me

 9 about him?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I think one thing I

11 remember I think we looked into that and he was

12 kind of holed up in the mountains and was very

13 strange, was that the guy, Randy Simmons.

14 DAVID WILLIAMS: I think he went on

15 the on -- he moved out -- (INAUDIBLE).

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Right, he was going

17 somewhere. It was kind of a -- seemed to be

18 really affected by this or --

19 LOU SMIT: Have you been able to

20 find anything on him or dug up anything on him

21 other than the paramilitary type.


23 (INAUDIBLE) did you look at his record?

24 LOU SMIT: I have looked. But I

25 just wondered if there are any suspicions or


 1 extraordinary suspicions.

 2 DAVID WILLIAMS: I think it would

 3 be appropriate for us to talk afterwards, I will

 4 let you know.

 5 LOU SMIT: Can you remember talking

 6 to anybody real close to Christmas about your

 7 trip to Charlevoix, I ask you this real briefly?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Well of

 9 course, Fleet White and Priscilla White knew our

10 schedule. Of course my secretary did. The

11 people at the lake would have known we were

12 coming, would have had the cleaning lady, the

13 people who did the decorations on the house.

14 Don Paugh, I mean the family would have known we

15 were coming. Seems like there is somebody that

16 Don talked to, I don't know if they asked about

17 our schedule, and this is pulling from deep

18 memory but --

19 DAVID WILLIAMS: If I may how about

20 people at Access?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Denise probably

22 would have known, my assistant.

23 LOU SMIT: Is that your secretary,

24 she got a little upset after this and had to

25 take a vacation and so forth? Denise Wolf?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I didn't know

 2 she got real upset. I am sure she got real

 3 upset. She had a boyfriend that we kind of

 4 wondered about one time that came to us as a

 5 kind of a, it was a little strange. And that

 6 was of interest.

 7 In fact, I somehow remember

 8 thinking he passed me some (INAUDIBLE) even like

 9 a trust in the system, and I didn't want to ask

10 her about it, it sure sounded strange. Her

11 boyfriend was taking kids or be at the Christmas

12 parties, had been at the office Christmas

13 parties every year.

14 LOU SMIT: He had been there?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I think so. And I

16 think we looked into it then.

17 DAVID WILLIAMS: That rings a bell


19 JOHN RAMSEY: That there was

20 something strange enough about it that I was

21 concerned. He hated kids or hated me or

22 something. I shouldn't say, I don't know

23 whether that was true. I remember something

24 about kids and he was dating Denise and if I

25 recall, I met him, you know.


 1 LOU SMIT: How was her actions

 2 after this, I mean her own actions (MULTIPLE


 4 JOHN RAMSEY: No, not at all. I

 5 didn't see her after for quite a while but --

 6 LOU SMIT: Does she still work

 7 there?



10 information. I talked with Denise a lot after

11 this because somehow it's very difficult to find

12 John. It was really a hard time. Thought her

13 behavior was absolutely straightforward, very

14 concerned. Very caring. Very compassionate,

15 very shattered over it. For what it's worth,

16 those were my impressions of her.

17 LOU SMIT: Okay. How about people

18 that occupied offices real close to you, there.

19 I know there was a couple that had offices --

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, that was next,

21 Ross Churchill was -- no, Don Paugh was on one

22 side and Tom Carson was on the other. Tom was

23 our chief financial officer, he was there when I

24 got there and kind of took care of him. We had

25 an awkward business relationship, just I never


 1 felt comfortable, I didn't trust him, which is

 2 absolutely terrible to have a CFO you don't

 3 trust. He -- I was, he was always a struggle

 4 for me to deal with. I just didn't like the

 5 guy.

 6 LOU SMIT: Was it a two-way street?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, probably to some

 8 degree, I don't think he -- Tom might think --

 9 at least for a while I think my impression, he

10 always thought he should have had my job instead

11 of me. And some people you're around, in your

12 work environment that when you're around them it

13 pumps you up and it's a positive thing and

14 others it's just always a drain. He was just

15 always a drain for me.

16 LOU SMIT: Do you think he could

17 have any reason to do this? I know we are

18 speculating, I know it's hard to say.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I mean I

20 thought about it, quite frankly. I mean I

21 thought about everybody. You know, we were

22 looking at, at that time, a, was it a sale of

23 the business? Yes, there was -- Lockheed had

24 made it kind of known, they -- we weren't

25 strategic to them and they were divesting some


 1 of their nonstrategic businesses and we were one

 2 of those and they were open to offers and so

 3 that was going on. Tom certainly would have

 4 been the loser had we been acquired by another

 5 company. We were being looked at by Endicom

 6 (phonetic), which a company in Omaha, that was a

 7 fairly serious or getting fairly serious

 8 (INAUDIBLE) value of the company and that's how

 9 bizarre my thoughts have gotten.

10 LOU SMIT: What's the name of the

11 company?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Endicom.

13 LOU SMIT: Endicom.

14 LOU SMIT: Any particular name

15 associate?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, Bill Fairfield

17 is the president. It's a public company, you

18 know, your mind is just reaching. And you know,

19 if I was -- think they should have just killed

20 me, that would have been it. Better way to do

21 it, then the company wouldn't have been

22 devalued, but Tom would have lost in that

23 because clearly they would have put their own

24 CFO in charge of the whole thing and he would

25 have been out, probably.


 1 He was always anxious to get us out

 2 from under Lockheed but do it in such a way that

 3 he could make a lot of money at it. Tom's

 4 agenda ways his own agenda, that was one of the

 5 problems with the trust issue.

 6 He had two daughters. He was

 7 divorced. The only people he dated were people

 8 in the office, which was always a problem. My

 9 former secretary almost filed a sexual

10 harassment suit on him. He just, he was kind of

11 an awkward, socially, guy. But he came to the

12 memorial, he came to the funeral in Atlanta.

13 It's almost inconceivable to think he could be

14 involved. In fact, he was on one side.

15 LOU SMIT: What, would he have

16 known you were leaving?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Quite possibly. We

18 talked a lot so it wouldn't have been -- he

19 probably more than anybody on my staff would

20 have, other than Denise would have known my

21 schedule, because, though Denise certainly would

22 have known my schedule, it would have been on

23 her desk. She kept a calendar. If somebody

24 wanted to know they could have gone to the

25 calendar.


 1 And it might have been a former

 2 boyfriend, I don't know if it was currently a

 3 boyfriend, you know, in December of '96 but

 4 something really on, mean working to. But you

 5 know.

 6 LOU SMIT: Do you know a Robert

 7 Phillips?


 9 LOU SMIT: And what do you know

10 about him?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: He used to go by

12 Nell, changed his name to Robert. He and Patsy

13 worked together at Hayes Micro Computer

14 Products, in Atlanta. He was a programmer,

15 wrote a software program that Hayes bought, then

16 they hired him to do the software program. I

17 think he got enough money out of that to last

18 him for a while.

19 He quit Hayes, was an investor, in

20 his own words, for a couple of years. Went to

21 law school here in Colorado, graduated. Is now

22 a lawyer in Atlanta or in Boulder that practices

23 mostly -- was interested in estate planning.

24 He's done some divorces and he's married to Judy

25 Phillips, who is now Judith Phillips and she


 1 moved to Boulder. They have children. They

 2 have Lindsay, they have got two children, but I

 3 forget the other's name. They met through --

 4 they were either pen pals or e-mail pals, they

 5 had never met face to face, when they were

 6 engaged before they ever got -- strange. They

 7 got married, we knew them in Atlanta. They

 8 moved to Boulder. Fairly suddenly and we moved

 9 to Boulder just coincidentally a year later or

10 so.

11 Knell's done some deals for me, he

12 did my wills, Patsy and my wills, set up some

13 trusts for our kids.

14 LOU SMIT: You had done this when,

15 when had he done this?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, maybe three

17 years ago, three or four years ago. Every year

18 he would -- it was a gift.

19 LOU SMIT: The lights on in the

20 house. Do you normally leave certain lights on

21 in the house?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, gosh, we usually

23 left lights on. Sometimes we turned the lights

24 in the, in this laundry area, we would turn them

25 on dim, because there were a bunch of lights in


 1 the ceiling, there is a dimmer on them, you turn

 2 that down. Sometimes you would leave the light

 3 on in the laundry room there. Washer and dryer

 4 room. There is a little neon light or frosted

 5 light, it was enough to light that area. There

 6 was nothing religious about which ones we left

 7 on. We tried to leave lights on enough so you

 8 could see if you were up at night.

 9 LOU SMIT: How about in the

10 basement?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Not at all unless it

12 was just accidental.

13 LOU SMIT: If you were to go down

14 in that basement at night, would you be able to

15 see your way around down there?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: It would be tough.

17 But no lights on, it would be difficult. And

18 there is always a lot of junk around. You know,

19 it was open, the door here usually the light was

20 on in this hall and if you left the door open,

21 it wasn't a very long stairway, it would have

22 provided some illumination probably in this

23 area. But.

24 LOU SMIT: Where was the light

25 switch for that basement?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: It seems to me it

 2 was either against that wall or as you went into

 3 the basement. Right now I don't remember for

 4 sure. There was a light, I think a light bulb

 5 right there. You might have had a little street

 6 light in this window at night.

 7 LOU SMIT: Where was the street

 8 light located at?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Hum, I don't

10 remember. I think there's a telephone pole

11 right in here somewhere.

12 LOU SMIT: In front of the --

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean there is one

14 down here maybe. Yeah, they are in front of the

15 house. No, that's not right. The telephone

16 pole is in back of the house. We had a lawn

17 light that was out at the edge of the drive --

18 edge of the sidewalk.

19 LOU SMIT: Was that normally on or

20 off?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was

22 normally on. It usually was left on all the

23 time.

24 LOU SMIT: How about on the first

25 floor?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we might

 2 have left lights on in the study. Um, we might

 3 have left a light on, you know, in front of the

 4 window here, sometimes.

 5 LOU SMIT: Solarium?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: In the solarium.

 7 LOU SMIT: We talked to Mrs.

 8 Bloomfield next door. She said normally the

 9 light was on in the solarium but that night it

10 was off. Does that sound logical?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's possible.

12 I mean we came home after dark, we were tired.

13 I wouldn't -- Burke and I played in the living

14 room for a little bit. But I can't say for

15 certain that I turned it on. Sometimes this

16 light, there is an outdoor light right there.

17 Sometimes that --

18 LOU SMIT: Door light, you're

19 pointing to the door of the solarium that opens

20 to the south?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Sometimes we

22 would leave this light on here outside of the

23 dining room doors because it illuminated the

24 patio.

25 LOU SMIT: To the west?


 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. But not --

 2 not always. You know, so we least had some

 3 lights on normally. We never turned them all

 4 off. I guess I shouldn't say never, but never

 5 intentionally turned them all off. I wasn't

 6 comfortable.

 7 LOU SMIT: Okay. Do you know a

 8 Dominick Giafrancisco (phonetic)?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

10 LOU SMIT: What do you know about

11 him?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: He worked for us for

13 several years. He was a marketing guy. He -- I

14 always felt was a little low on horsepower. We

15 had him doing -- he eventually quit, I think of

16 his own accord. But he did so I think because

17 he didn't feel that he was being advanced as

18 fast as he wanted to be, is kind of my

19 recollection. He probably left Access, you

20 know, '95, '96 kind of time frame, is my

21 recollection.

22 He's an architect by education. I

23 think moved to -- was building a house in

24 Steamboat or somewhere in the mountains. That's

25 the last I knew of him. What's the significance


 1 to his name?

 2 LOU SMIT: It's just that his name

 3 came up and I just wondered if you knew or had

 4 any suspicions on him or could have.


 6 JOHN RAMSEY: He never crossed my

 7 mind as someone I was suspicious of. He was

 8 actually (INAUDIBLE).

 9 LOU SMIT: Do you know a fellow

10 named Mike Wolf who lives on 16th?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: No. We looked into

12 a guy named Wolf that came up. I don't know if

13 it was Mike Wolf or not.

14 LOU SMIT: Chris Wolf?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Chris Wolf, yeah.

16 No, Mike Wolf I don't know.

17 LOU SMIT: Okay, Robert Christian

18 Wolf, Chris Wolf, did you fellows look into it?

19 MIKE KANE: Yes, we did.

20 LOU SMIT: The reason I am bringing

21 that up a little bit is I am not positive that

22 of this a hundred percent, but wasn't he a

23 reporter also?

24 VOICE: He claimed to be.

25 LOU SMIT: Didn't he wrote articles


 1 about Access Graphics?

 2 VOICE: He wrote articles, yeah.

 3 LOU SMIT: Could he have had

 4 anything to do with that Entrepreneur Magazine

 5 or --

 6 VOICE: I never knew about it until

 7 yesterday. We are willing to give you

 8 everything we got on him. I know we turned over

 9 some information through Ellis, was that not to

10 you?

11 LOU SMIT: Yes, we got some things.

12 VOICE: But I will ask Ellis to

13 purge it all. If that's a connection


15 JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible. I

16 mean he wrote articles for, was it Daily Planet

17 or I forget what we found out, but apparently he

18 was like a free-lance writer, claimed he wrote

19 about Access Graphics, claim -- I know, claimed

20 that there were a lot of phone calls to

21 Cheryl -- Cheryl.

22 LOU SMIT: One of your employees?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: She sat right next

24 to Denise Wolf for years.

25 LOU SMIT: Really?



 2 LOU SMIT: What was her name?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Cheryl --

 4 VOICE: I remember this.

 5 VOICE: I don't have the name of

 6 the magazine straight, do you? Did you all get

 7 the one that you showed.


 9 JOHN RAMSEY: P R I T, I think.

10 She can came up with the name, she is blond, she

11 sat next Denise. She was on probation several

12 times by the fellow she worked for who was Ross

13 Churchill, she was calling in sick a lot, she

14 wasn't that great of an employee, but apparently

15 there was a number of calls to her somehow

16 determined and she had handled all the travel

17 arrangements, most of 'em, not -- she hadn't

18 done that for the whole job but --

19 LOU SMIT: Was she there in

20 Christmas of '96?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, she would have

22 been an Access employee then. I don't know that

23 she was in that job then, because she was taken

24 out of that job or went to Human Resources and

25 then took over all the travel arrangements. I


 1 think actually she was fine with, but at some

 2 point she was moved out of that desk downstairs.

 3 LOU SMIT: Who would we talk to

 4 that would know her?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Denise Wolf would be

 6 a good source. Ross Churchill. She worked for

 7 Ross for a number of years, and we used to tell

 8 Ross, Ross, you got to get a better assistant,

 9 she is not very good, kind of move her out.

10 LOU SMIT: Did she know what your

11 bonus was, for instance?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: It's not out of the

13 question. Not out of the question. She sat

14 right there by Denise, they were back to back,

15 there was no wall between them. It would have

16 been very easy to know everything Denise would

17 have almost.

18 LOU SMIT: Again I throw out these

19 names not more or less to say well, this guy did

20 it or not, but just to jiggle recollections and

21 maybe start to look at them a certain way.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well --

23 VOICE: We can look up our reports

24 and give you that information. I think we

25 contacted him.


 1 VOICE: I don't recall. That was

 2 not in my division. ^ ^NOTE.