0001
1 _______________________________________________
2
3 IN THE MATTER OF:
4
5
6 INTERVIEW WITH PATSY RAMSEY
7
8 _______________________________________________
9
10
11 TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW
12
13 VOLUME 1 of 4
14 PAGES 1 - 140
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18
19 JUNE 23, 1998
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25
0002
1 FOR PATSY RAMSEY'S INTERVIEW,
2 THE FOLLOWING WERE PRESENT:
3
4
5 THOMAS HANEY
6 TRIP DeMUTH
7 PATRICK BURKE
8 ELLIS ARMISTEAD
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
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25
0003
1 TOM HANEY: Today's date is June
2 23, 1998. We are at the Broomfield Police
3 Department, the time is approximately 9:04 a.m.
4 Present are Patricia Ramsey, Pat
5 Burke, attorney-at-law, Ellis Armistead, Trip
6 DeMuth from the Boulder County Sheriff's or
7 District Attorney's Office and my name is Tom
8 Haney, I am with the Denver District Attorney's
9 Office and working for the Boulder Police
10 Department or Sheriff's -- District Attorney's
11 Office.
12 Ms. Ramsey, I want to tell you that
13 this interview is being both audio and video
14 recorded. This is a voluntary statement.
15 You're free to go or free to stop this interview
16 at any time. Do you understand that?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
18 TOM HANEY: Why are you appearing
19 today?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I have been
21 since the beginning of a new page in trying to
22 find out who murdered our daughter.
23 TOM HANEY: And as I said earlier,
24 you are here voluntarily. In fact, it was your
25 idea?
0004
1 PATSY RAMSEY: That's right.
2 TOM HANEY: And you're willing to
3 discuss with us anything we ask and answer any
4 questions that we have?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: As far as I -- it's
6 productive and we are trying to get to the
7 bottom of this, I will be here for the duration.
8 TOM HANEY: Okay, thank you.
9 That's our intention, we want to move this case
10 forward. It's been some 14 months, I think,
11 since your previous statement. I want you to
12 know that some of the questions that we ask
13 today may be very personal, and we are not
14 trying to antagonize you or upset you, but these
15 are questions that have arisen in the course of
16 the investigation. They are based on facts,
17 rumors, stories, and we feel that we have to ask
18 all of them. Okay?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
20 TOM HANEY: Is there anything
21 preliminarily from anybody? Mr. Burke?
22 MR. BURKE: No.
23 TOM HANEY: Trip?
24 TRIP DeMUTH: No.
25 TOM HANEY: Ms. Ramsey, are you
0005
1 currently under a doctor's care?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, I am.
3 TOM HANEY: And who is the doctor?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Dr. Sammy Brown,
5 Samuel Brown in Atlanta, psychiatrist, M.D.
6 TOM HANEY: Okay. And are you
7 taking any medication?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
9 TOM HANEY: And what are you
10 taking?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I take 30 milligrams
12 of Prozac a day, and Ativan, half a milligram as
13 needed.
14 TOM HANEY: When is the last time
15 you took either/or both of these?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: I took 20 milligrams
17 of Prozac this morning and I will take ten this
18 evening. And I took Ativan, half a milligram of
19 Ativan.
20 TOM HANEY: Are you under any other
21 doctor's care?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I am a patient of
23 the National Cancer Institute in Bethesda,
24 Maryland, I go there twice a year now.
25 TOM HANEY: Are you on any
0006
1 medication?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
3 TOM HANEY: Any other supplements,
4 over-the-counter items, anything like that?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
6 TOM HANEY: Ms. Ramsey, let's just
7 start off by you telling us what you can about
8 the death of JonBenet?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Where would you like
10 to start?
11 TOM HANEY: Just wherever you want
12 to start right now. Like I said, we have tons
13 of questions, but I want to give you this
14 opportunity early on to tell the -- what you
15 know about it.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, all I know is
17 that her father and I put her to bed. The night
18 of Christmas day, 25th. And that was the last
19 time I saw her until the afternoon of the 26th,
20 when John discovered her body in the basement
21 and we had -- I had found the note which said
22 that it was a kidnapping.
23 So that morning we were all
24 operating under the presumption of the facts of
25 a kidnapping. Fact that it was a kidnapping.
0007
1 The police were there and they were setting up
2 telephones and all that. They were trying to
3 obtain the ransom money and all that kind of
4 stuff. And then we found out otherwise.
5 TOM HANEY: What I would like to do
6 now is just kind of walk you through diagrams of
7 the house, and it's going to be a little bit
8 tricky here, but first of all, if you just take
9 a minute and look. This is of the third floor,
10 floor plan. It's -- I don't know if it's
11 approximately to scale. If you just look it
12 over.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
14 TOM HANEY: Orient yourself there.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. Uh-hum.
16 Okay.
17 TOM HANEY: And look at the other
18 diagrams too, before we start, just to make sure
19 that you have oriented yourself and they are
20 fairly accurate representations of the house.
21 MR. BURKE: I assume that when we
22 get a copy of the tape we will get copies of
23 these I guess you call them demonstrative
24 exhibits.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: We are about to -- we
0008
1 can talk about it during a break.
2 TOM HANEY: And that was the second
3 floor.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
5 TOM HANEY: This is the main level?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding). Right.
7 Uh-hum.
8 TOM HANEY: What I would like to do
9 then is just have you walk us through and maybe
10 first of all, just in your own words again, if
11 you could tell us from the time that you got up
12 on the 26th of December, what you did and what
13 happened on that, after you go through it all
14 once and we will come back again and that's when
15 I would like you to mark on here, we will trace
16 your path, your route, what you did and the last
17 additional questions then, okay?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. I awakened
19 that morning, probably somewhere between 5:30
20 and 6. We are going to take off for the airport
21 just at 7, we were going to the lake house. I
22 got up and walked over here to my bathroom right
23 in here.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: I am sorry, I missed
25 what you said, what time you said.
0009
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Sometime
2 between 5:30 and 6 a.m. And walked around
3 here to the bathroom and I did not take a shower
4 that morning, so I don't know, you know, what
5 exactly I did here. I mean other than just get
6 dressed, brush my teeth, put on my make up. And
7 get ready to go.
8 And then I walked down downstairs
9 here, came to the landing there (showing
10 document) and there was an ironing board here,
11 some clothes, I had a plastic bag kind of right
12 in here somewhere that I had just things to
13 throw, throw in, to take for my trip. And I
14 think I was here for a couple of minutes, just
15 getting some clothes, things.
16 And then I started down the stairs,
17 this staircase, to go to the kitchen. And the
18 note was on the landing, on the stairs, the
19 bottom of the stairs here. And I, there was
20 some lighting on, but it wasn't bright lights
21 (INAUDIBLE) and looked -- you know, started
22 reading the letter.
23 And after the first couple of
24 sentences realized, you know, what was
25 happening, and I ran back up these stairs, okay,
0010
1 and pushed her door to her room right here, and
2 she was not in her bed. So I went over to these
3 stairs and yelled out for John, called to him
4 and he came down. And I said "she's been
5 kidnapped, here's a note," whatever. And I was
6 panicking, you know. I think -- I can't
7 remember exactly what I did then, whether -- I
8 think I ran downstairs again.
9 I said, you know, "what do we do,
10 what do we do?"
11 He said, "call 911, call the
12 police."
13 I ran upstairs, and I think -- I
14 think -- I -- I can't remember if -- I think
15 asked him to check on Burke, one of us checked
16 on Burke, and I remember just seeing him at the
17 phone, trying to -- and then I looked down and
18 John came down and on the floor, down here
19 (indicating), I came in here, here, and John
20 came down, I went to the telephone here, and he
21 kind of crouched on the floor, he was in his
22 underwear, and read the papers on the floor
23 right there, and you know, I was trying to get
24 this 911 person to -- it just seemed like it
25 took forever, to drag through, you know, crazy
0011
1 by that time.
2 Anyway, got the message across, she
3 said she would send somebody out, and oh, God in
4 heaven. Oh, then I phone -- called our friends,
5 Mr. and Mrs. Fleet White and Mr. and
6 Mrs. Johnson, they live in Boulder. I think
7 John went back up to get dressed.
8 And I called them and told them
9 that she's been kidnapped, she is missing. And
10 then I walked out through here, and opened the
11 door, and started waiting for -- front door --
12 started waiting for the police to show up.
13 (INAUDIBLE).
14 I was standing on the (INAUDIBLE)
15 and pretty soon a squad car came -- you know,
16 officer came up. And I remember thinking
17 because it said somewhere in the note, if you do
18 that, if you call somebody, that's not good.
19 Blah, blah, blah. And I just remembered
20 thinking oh, my God, I hope they are not
21 watching me. I mean, what if they are watching,
22 if the policeman comes, I mean all this was just
23 rushing through my head.
24 Anyway, he came in and -- and I was
25 just rattled. I think John came in, and I think
0012
1 he kind of walked us over to this sun room area,
2 and tried to -- tried to calm us down and, you
3 know, tried to explain what happened. And then
4 they kind of took over.
5 TOM HANEY: Okay. Let me remove a
6 couple of these and we will get started
7 backwards on some questions, and then like I
8 said we will ask you just with a marker, and I
9 will just kind of hold onto it and give it to
10 you intermittently, but you said you woke up
11 between 5:30 and 6; is that correct?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I would --
13 TOM HANEY: Had you set the alarm,
14 did you intend --
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't set the
16 alarm. John, it's on his side of the bed and he
17 always sets that. I was just thinking he wanted
18 to take off at 7, so it means we had to leave
19 the house about 6:30, and I usually get up about
20 45 minutes, half an hour, 45 minutes to an hour
21 earlier to kind of pull things together. And we
22 just throw our clothes on and go when it's that
23 early.
24 We had to leave at 7 because we had
25 to meet Melinda and John Andrew. Normally it
0013
1 doesn't matter whether you're five or ten
2 minutes late, you're not meeting anything, you
3 are not on a schedule, but we were rendezvousing
4 with them, they were flying commercially from
5 Atlanta to Minneapolis, so we had to take off at
6 7 to meet their flight in Minneapolis.
7 TOM HANEY: Where in Minneapolis
8 were you to meet them?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: At the airport.
10 TOM HANEY: Okay. Did they take
11 commercial and private?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, usually there
13 is a commercial area. Correct.
14 TOM HANEY: So you wake up and
15 you're not sure of the time. Did you happen to
16 look at the clock?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Not -- I mean, not
18 to the minute, no. I mean -- no. Sometime
19 between 5:30 and 6.
20 TOM HANEY: Okay. And when you
21 woke up, where was John?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: He was up already.
23 He had gotten up, I think he was in the
24 bathroom.
25 TOM HANEY: And his bathroom --
0014
1 okay.
2 Did you see him or hear him at that
3 time?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think I saw
5 him. I think I heard his shower on.
6 TOM HANEY: Let's back up a little
7 bit. That night, did you get a good night's
8 sleep?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Uh-hum.
10 TOM HANEY: Approximately what time
11 did you get to sleep on the 25th?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know
13 what time. I mean --
14 TOM HANEY: We understand that--
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Just before, I mean
16 it was 10 o'clock-ish. Probably something like
17 that.
18 TOM HANEY: When you actually went
19 to sleep?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it was pretty
21 soon after I hit the bed, yeah, I was pretty
22 tired.
23 TOM HANEY: So about--
24 PATSY RAMSEY: About 10:30-ish, I
25 think.
0015
1 TOM HANEY: Okay, and did -- you
2 get up between 5:30 and 6. Had you gotten up at
3 all during the night?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
5 TOM HANEY: Had you slept fairly
6 well?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
8 TOM HANEY: Well rested?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
10 TOM HANEY: Do you normally sleep
11 through the night?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, pretty much.
13 TOM HANEY: How about John?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Through the night.
15 TOM HANEY: To the best of your
16 knowledge?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
18 TOM HANEY: And he normally is a
19 pretty sound sleeper?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
21 TOM HANEY: How about Burke?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Sound sleeper.
23 TOM HANEY: And--
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean sometimes I
25 will hear him get up and go to the bathroom, but
0016
1 I didn't hear anything last night. I didn't
2 here anything that night.
3 TOM HANEY: And how about JonBenet?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: She was really a
5 sound sleeper. She was very sound asleep that
6 night. She fell asleep in the car and was just
7 wiped out. She went to bed.
8 TOM HANEY: And you didn't wake up
9 at all during the night?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
11 TOM HANEY: You didn't hear a
12 scream, nothing startled you?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head with
14 no audible answer).
15 TOM HANEY: And now a neighbor did
16 hear reportedly a scream, somewhere between
17 midnight and 2 a.m.?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head with
19 no audible answer.)
20 TOM HANEY: When you got up, were
21 there any lights on?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I am sure there
23 were. We -- we -- the house was big, and
24 twisty-turny, you know, so we nearly always left
25 a light on in case somebody did get up or
0017
1 something. Because there are a lot of little
2 steps and what not. And we are not very good
3 about turning lights off.
4 TOM HANEY: Is there -- there
5 particular ones that you normally leave on?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
7 TOM HANEY: And/or we will just
8 stick with this floor for now.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: No, nothing here.
10 TOM HANEY: Okay. When you got up,
11 was it pitch black?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: John -- John, I
13 remember his bathroom right here had a light.
14 TOM HANEY: Okay. So it's shining
15 somewhat down to here, but we are talking quite
16 a distance?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, there is a
18 hall light here, right here I think. That was
19 on. Because I remember, you know, when you
20 first look up it's like bright, you know, but I
21 think that he was up already, he had gone
22 through here, you know, to his bathroom area.
23 TOM HANEY: What I would like to do
24 then is with this blue marker, can you just
25 indicate the path that you took getting out of
0018
1 bed and then the first stop you made, the first
2 thing you did along that route.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: My clothes were
4 probably thrown on the bathtub (INAUDIBLE).
5 TOM HANEY: Let me stop you there.
6 The clothes that you say were thrown down, those
7 were clothes you had worn the night before?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
9 TOM HANEY: Okay. Seems odd to me.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Early. I do this a
11 lot.
12 TOM HANEY: Now did you intend to
13 wear those the rest of the day though or --
14 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS)?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably what I
16 thought I would do, you know, my thinking was I
17 have my underwear and all that is in these
18 drawers here, so I put my underwear on, but I
19 put the black velvet pants on the and the red
20 sweater, red top, and then we have clothes up at
21 the lake, and I took a few things with me. You
22 know, it was just so early, I was just going to
23 throw on whatever I had up there. Just get in,
24 tumble into bed and when we awake early, you
25 know, kind of almost get ready up there. You
0019
1 know.
2 I put make up on and brushed my
3 hair but --
4 TOM HANEY: Let me steal that for a
5 second before --
6 PATSY RAMSEY: It's all over your
7 shirt, yeah.
8 TOM HANEY: So this would have not
9 been your normal routine, though, to put the
10 same clothes on?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I do whatever
12 I want. I told you that. I mean if I had a
13 pair, you know, of black shorts on, you can wear
14 them two, three days, before I send them to the
15 dry cleaners. I might have changed the top or
16 something but --
17 TOM HANEY: Okay. Okay.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't like to do
19 laundry so I --
20 TOM HANEY: And you're getting
21 ready for this trip anyway?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
23 TOM HANEY: And there is really not
24 a whole lot of time --
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
0020
1 TOM HANEY: -- if you're going to
2 leave at 7?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
4 TOM HANEY: So you say you put your
5 makeup on?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding.)
7 TOM HANEY: What brands of makeup
8 do you wear?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Different kinds.
10 TOM HANEY: Do you know what it
11 would have been at that time?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably the
13 foundation was probably either Clinique or
14 Chanel, my sister sells Chanel and she has
15 samples of everything. So keeps us in samples
16 (INAUDIBLE). Just guessing, I don't know.
17 TOM HANEY: What did you say this
18 was, the--
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Foundation.
20 TOM HANEY: Foundation. Okay. Are
21 there other things that you put on--
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Blush, lipstick. I
23 probably didn't really do a terrific job. I
24 mean just putting, get a little bit on and go,
25 you know.
0021
1 TOM HANEY: Okay. And how long do
2 you think all that in the bathroom took?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, 20, 30 minutes.
4 TOM HANEY: And what --
5 TRIP DeMUTH: Is that a different
6 brand of blush that you put on? Is that the
7 same Clinique?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I
9 have a draw full of stuff. I don't necessarily
10 use the same, you know, Chanel, Chanel, Chanel,
11 Clinique, Clinique. Just kind of whatever jar
12 is there.
13 TOM HANEY: Okay. Then after that
14 20 or 30 minutes in there, if you just take the
15 marker again and indicate the next place you
16 went?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
18 (INAUDIBLE.)
19 Okay.
20 TOM HANEY: So now we are on the
21 second floor, because you're coming down the
22 stairs?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, I am coming
24 down this way, yes. Uh-hum. I don't know, over
25 here, the laundry area, I had the ironing board
0022
1 somewhere here. And I had -- I think I had a
2 couple of plastic bags here somewhere. I think
3 I had in case I had run into the kids to take to
4 the lake. In this case I had two suit -- should
5 I write on it?
6 TOM HANEY: The only problem is I
7 don't think that the camera pick this up at this
8 angle. But you have drawn in the laundry area,
9 kind of an oblong shape for the ironing board
10 and then --
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Plastic bag.
12 TOM HANEY: -- little plastic bag,
13 which is kind of a square, rectangle, and you
14 stopped there?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Just momentary. I
16 remember -- remember laying the little red
17 jumpsuit of JonBenet's over the ironing board,
18 because it had a few spots on it, so I was
19 thinking when I came back from the lake I was
20 going to take that to the dry cleaners, and
21 decided to lay that under there somewhere.
22 TOM HANEY: Was that -- it wasn't
23 something you were going to take to the lake?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No, no, it was
25 something she had worn for a Christmas
0023
1 performance. It was a little Christmas thing.
2 TOM HANEY: When had she worn that?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: She had worn it --
4 well, she wore it, some of her pageant girls
5 performed together in a group, some Christmas
6 songs and things, down in a mall in Denver, she
7 wore it for that.
8 TOM HANEY: Okay, we are halfway
9 there.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I
11 mean -- I can try to find out.
12 TOM HANEY: Yeah, okay, couple of
13 days or--
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you know,
15 that's around Christmastime there. Looking for
16 -- what's her name?
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Is that Amerikids?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, that's what who
19 it was, yes. What's her name, I don't remember
20 her name.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Is that Dolan?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Dolan, exactly. She
23 would remember when that was. So she wore it
24 that day.
25 TOM HANEY: So you say she--
0024
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I had laid that out
2 or done something and the light was on here.
3 TOM HANEY: The laundry room light
4 was on here?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: The light here.
6 Yes. I was working there.
7 TOM HANEY: Okay, did you turn it
8 on?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.
10 That could have been one that was left on, I
11 don't know. Sometimes we leave that one on.
12 TOM HANEY: Sometimes you do?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding).
14 TOM HANEY: But you don't recall
15 that morning coming down into the dark or --
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TOM HANEY: So to the best of your
18 recollection, it was on, you think?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I would say either
20 that light was on or there were also some
21 sconces right here on the stairwell, which were
22 dimmed and oftentimes we would leave that on,
23 because it was dimly lit as a night light sort
24 of lighting area.
25 TOM HANEY: Okay.
0025
1 PATSY RAMSEY: So something I am
2 sure was on, because it wasn't pitch black
3 walking down.
4 TOM HANEY: How about JonBenet's
5 room, what was the condition of the room?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I remember
7 racing over and her door was just kind of
8 slightly ajar.
9 TOM HANEY: And you're
10 demonstrating what, three--
11 PATSY RAMSEY: 3, 4 inches, you
12 know.
13 TOM HANEY: Okay. Is that the way
14 you left it the night before?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, that's usually
16 the way I left it.
17 TOM HANEY: And is there a
18 particular reason?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I closed it
20 because if I did leave a light on out here, it
21 would shine pretty brightly into her room so I
22 close to make it a little darker in there. But
23 I want to leave it so if she needed me or called
24 out or something I could hear her, you know.
25 TOM HANEY: So that was the normal
0026
1 thing?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: That was the normal
3 thing to do.
4 TOM HANEY: Did you happen to look
5 in?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No. At that time, I
7 did not.
8 TOM HANEY: Did you happen to
9 notice if there was any light coming from
10 inside?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't notice.
12 Just nothing seemed unusual.
13 TOM HANEY: Okay. So we are still
14 at the ironing board and this little red outfit.
15 What do you do with that, how long does that
16 take?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Just, I don't know,
18 just a few minutes. And I don't know, I can't
19 remember what I was doing. I just remember I
20 was trying to get this bag ready to go to the
21 lake, I had two suitcases in here of the
22 children's things, I was trying to get ready,
23 because when we came back from the lake we were
24 going on to Disney and the Big Red Boat.
25 TOM HANEY: You're going to go to
0027
1 Charlevoix, am I saying that right?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Charlevoix.
3 TOM HANEY: You're going there the
4 26th at 7 in the morning. How long are you
5 going to stay there?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Just a couple of
7 days, I think, because we were due back, I think
8 we were supposed to leave on the Big Red Boat on
9 my birthday, which is the 29th. So would
10 that -- was that a Saturday?
11 TOM HANEY: I think Christmas was
12 -- 25th was a Wednesday, and so Sunday would
13 have been the 29th approximately.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, somewhere
15 around there. I just didn't have very much time
16 when we got back. So I was prepacking stuff
17 here. So --
18 TOM HANEY: Let me just keep you on
19 this. The Big Red Boat thing on the 29th, what
20 time were you going to leave for that, do you
21 recall?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: We had airline
23 flights out of Denver.
24 TOM HANEY: Commercial?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. It must be
0028
1 somewhere.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you remember what
3 carrier?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I think we
5 called Disney at a number you call, and they do
6 some sort of package thing, they put it
7 together, so I don't know, Delta, United or --
8 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: The point is we
10 didn't go from Charlevoix, we had to fly back
11 from Charlevoix to Denver to take a commercial
12 flight to Orlando.
13 TOM HANEY: And do you know when
14 you would have come back from Charlevoix?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Just like the day
16 before.
17 TOM HANEY: Okay. The 8th
18 approximately?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. Or it could
20 have, you -- yeah, I think that's right. I
21 just, I don't remember exactly whether we were
22 leaving on Saturday or Sunday, and we were going
23 to be on the Big Red Boat for my birthday.
24 TOM HANEY: Which was the plan?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
0029
1 TOM HANEY: So you're in the
2 laundry, you say you spent a couple of minutes
3 there, two, five?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably five or
5 ten. You know.
6 TOM HANEY: Okay.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, I had
8 some laundry in here. I know I was -- just was
9 here for a few minutes. And then I (INAUDIBLE.)
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay, Tom, could I
11 clarify one thing. So what's your estimate of
12 the total time you spent in the guest bedroom,
13 laundry room area before you started heading
14 down the stairs, what's your best estimate?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Five or ten
16 minutes.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay, thank you.
18 TOM HANEY: Now, we have the
19 diagram for the first floor.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
21 TOM HANEY: So you come -- you're
22 coming down the stairs. Are there any lights on
23 in that spiral staircase?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, just you know,
25 can't remember exactly. But I mean there was
0030
1 enough light -- it wasn't pitch black, in other
2 words. But there was either a light coming from
3 here somewhere or like I said, the sconce or
4 something. You know, interior stairwell.
5 TOM HANEY: Okay. And I don't
6 recall, and I was in the house but I didn't
7 notice, the sconces, are they high up, all the
8 way up and down?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: No, they are just
10 kind of wall sort of sconces. Those you could
11 dim, you know, raise or dim the light. So those
12 you know, that typically would be left on at
13 night. And you could dim them from here.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: Are they on the first
15 or second floor, the sconces?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: They go in between,
17 they are in the stairway.
18 Okay, I come down here, and you
19 know, some of the rooms are light here where
20 these three pieces of paper were.
21 TOM HANEY: Which -- let me steal
22 that from you. Which running of the stairs were
23 they on?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it wasn't the
25 bottom one. I would say it was like -- I mean I
0031
1 had to bend over, you know, to look at it, you
2 know.
3 TOM HANEY: And when you first see
4 it, what's your first reaction?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, my initial
6 reaction was that -- I mean, I probably would
7 stack things going upstairs, you know, shoes or
8 toys or whatever, that was -- and that would
9 take a load so there was typically always
10 something there, going one way or the other.
11 But this was laid out across the
12 tread, you know. This was laid out across the
13 treads, so I mean I just thought well, papers,
14 you know, John would have taken up to see or
15 something, I don't know. Thanks.
16 And then when I came down and
17 looked at it, glanced at it, my first reaction
18 was that it was a note from my cleaning lady.
19 TOM HANEY: Let me just stop you
20 there. You are kind of bounding down the stairs
21 I would imagine?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
23 TOM HANEY: Kind of get going?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
25 TOM HANEY: You come to it, you
0032
1 stop and you look and see -- you kind of bend
2 over from higher up?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I passed it,
4 then turned back around to turn to look and see
5 what it was.
6 TOM HANEY: Did you step over that
7 rung or--
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think I
9 stepped on it, because you know, you step on
10 paper, it kind of does that. So I somehow got
11 around it.
12 TOM HANEY: Okay. And the note,
13 and let me just hand you -- here is a copy of
14 the note. If you just lay it out for us here on
15 the table the way it was laid out.
16 (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
17 TOM HANEY: And that's if you're
18 looking from the bottom it would be on like you
19 said either the second--
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Like here to the
21 steps going up.
22 TOM HANEY: Okay. Now, was there
23 sufficient light from those sconces for you to
24 read it?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
0033
1 TOM HANEY: Do you wear glasses,
2 contacts?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I didn't then.
4 I do now, a little bit. For reading.
5 TOM HANEY: Okay. Can you -- do
6 you have your contacts in now?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't have
8 contacts, no.
9 TOM HANEY: Can you read this?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. You want me
11 to read it to you?
12 TOM HANEY: No, no, that's fine.
13 But could you read it then without any problem?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
15 TOM HANEY: So you see it. What do
16 you do?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I read -- I read
18 down to about, it says, "at this time we have
19 your daughter in our possession."
20 For some reason, I don't -- don't
21 ask me why but, I start --
22 TRIP DeMUTH: Don't count on him
23 not asking you why.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I, my first flash
25 that was in my head was I thought it was Beth,
0034
1 our daughter, I don't know why I thought --
2 (INAUDIBLE), and then "daughter in our
3 possession, she is safe from harm, your daughter
4 in 1997," then when I realized this was now,
5 this was new material, this was not something --
6 you know, papers from that had to do with Beth.
7 And just I stopped and just went up the stairs.
8 TOM HANEY: When you bent down to
9 read it, did you pick it up or did you leave it
10 on the stair?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I just can't
12 remember exactly.
13 TOM HANEY: Well, and it would be a
14 little uncomfortable I would think to--
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I just kind of --
16 you know, and then I realized and went --
17 (Indicating).
18 TOM HANEY: So you left it in
19 that --
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I think I left
21 it --
22 TOM HANEY: -- approximate location
23 like it's laid out now?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
25 TOM HANEY: Okay. So as far as
0035
1 getting to the bottom of the stairs, that's as
2 far as you got?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I got -- I was
4 to the floor.
5 TOM HANEY: Okay.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I got down to the
7 floor here and turned around and looked at it.
8 TOM HANEY: Now --
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Tom, if that's not
10 clear, because the camera can't see it, it's
11 laid out pages 1, 2 and 3 left to right as you
12 were looking from the floor towards the stairs,
13 correct?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.
15 TOM HANEY: And you said that you
16 just read that first paragraph?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
18 TOM HANEY: And that's when you
19 stopped?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
21 TOM HANEY: Had you since or did
22 you that day read the rest of the note?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I read -- I
24 came back down and John had it, you know, on the
25 floor, and what not, and I was glancing at it,
0036
1 and somewhere I thought in there, because I
2 didn't read it line by line, I looked over to
3 see who it was from, and I didn't know who that
4 was. And somewhere I caught in there where it
5 said if you call some -- don't call the police
6 or -- wherever it said that.
7 Oh, here, police, FBI, et cetera,
8 your daughter being held. And I read that and I
9 mean, my blood just went cold. You know, I
10 couldn't --
11 TOM HANEY: That was some time
12 later?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it was kind of
14 all during, I mean after John came down and he
15 had the note and I was "God, what are we going
16 to do, what are we going to do?"
17 And he said, "call the police, call
18 911" and I was looking around reading but it
19 said don't do that. You know, what if they
20 heard, it said we got to call, call them, I mean
21 all this was like in minutes.
22 TOM HANEY: Have you ever since
23 that day read the entire note?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yes.
25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Probably on more
0037
1 than one occasion?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
3 TOM HANEY: And in looking at it,
4 these are the times when you have -- and looking
5 at it today, do you notice anything about it,
6 anything that you recognize, anything that looks
7 familiar, similar to anything you have seen
8 before?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: This M kind of looks
10 like an M that I have seen somebody make. I
11 don't know -- I have wracked my brain over this
12 a million times. But you know, everything else
13 was just, you know --
14 TOM HANEY: Do you notice any
15 similarities to, say, your style of indentation
16 and signing off and the use of exclamation
17 points, anything like that?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I mean, as you
19 know, I have had umpteen handwriting samples and
20 they all want to say that, you know, my A's look
21 like this or --
22 TOM HANEY: I am not talking so
23 much about the handwriting itself. I am talking
24 about the style of the "Mr. Ramsey"?
25 Introduction, the indentation, the signing off
0038
1 at the end?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
3 TOM HANEY: No? Similar to your
4 style?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I usually sign
6 "regards" or something like that. "Love".
7 TOM HANEY: So you see the note,
8 you read that portion, you're at the bottom of
9 the stairs, then you start back up?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I ran up.
11 TOM HANEY: Before that, that's
12 right. But before -- what was the first thing
13 you do? Do you say something, do you do
14 something?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I realized that and
16 I went bounding up the stairs to her room and
17 pushed the door open. I mean pushing the door,
18 I did not go through it, I just pushed it open
19 and saw she wasn't in her bed.
20 TOM HANEY: Let's -- now you
21 said -- here is a different marker. We will use
22 a green one. Coming back up the stairs, so
23 you're coming up from the first floor, now we
24 are on the second floor.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay, I came up,
0039
1 bounding up here. Over to here, pushed the door
2 open. She wasn't there. I ran under --
3 TOM HANEY: Let me just stop you
4 there. When you pushed the door open, was there
5 a light on in the room?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: There was -- her
7 lamp light was not on. You know, there was
8 enough light that I could tell she wasn't in her
9 bed. Now, whether that was coming from the
10 laundry area, whether daylight was breaking or
11 whether there was -- you know, sometime we left
12 a little night light here on in her bathroom, so
13 you know, I -- all I know is I was able to see
14 that there is no one lying in that bed and the
15 covers are ruffled.
16 TOM HANEY: Did you go past that
17 door?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
19 TOM HANEY: You didn't enter that
20 room at all?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
22 TOM HANEY: Did you -- did you
23 think that possibly she had gotten out of the
24 bed, was somewhere else in the room you didn't--
25 PATSY RAMSEY: It just happened so
0040
1 fast, and I, you know, read that letter and said
2 "we have your daughter", your mind goes berserk.
3 I mean I was -- and then I went up there and my
4 child is not in the bed. You know, I didn't,
5 nothing against your questioning, but no, I
6 didn't stand around and say I wonder if she is
7 in here, I wonder if she is in there. I
8 screamed for John.
9 TOM HANEY: Okay, and that's why
10 you were standing here?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I am going this way
12 and I lean on and said John -- you know, the
13 landing is like here, is like this, then it
14 turns and like that. And I leaned over, I mean
15 my knees were like, you know, buckling. And oh,
16 God, and he came down and I said, "she's gone,
17 she's gone, there is a note, she's been
18 kidnapped."
19 TOM HANEY: So you're here at the
20 base of the stairs?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
22 TOM HANEY: You scream for John?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding with no
24 audible response).
25 TOM HANEY: Do you remember exactly
0041
1 what words you used, was it more than just John
2 or--
3 PATSY RAMSEY: I remember my voice
4 was just cracking. I mean it was like "John",
5 like that. I mean like, I can't even, you know,
6 I hear my scream and I hear his scream when he
7 came up from the basement, I mean it was just a
8 horrible thing. You know, it was just --
9 TOM HANEY: Where does John, and we
10 will use a red marker now for John, where does
11 he first appear in there, at least in this
12 diagram, if you can start there?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: He comes down those
14 stairs there. (Indicating) and so we are both
15 like standing here, I am pacing, I said oh, my
16 God, you know there is a note, she's been
17 kidnapped. She is not in her bed, you know.
18 You know, then everything gets really you know,
19 who's on first kind of thing.
20 TOM HANEY: So you made two little
21 X's in red. They are near the base of the
22 stairs. And that's where you two have this
23 conversation?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
25 TOM HANEY: What is John's -- how
0042
1 is he dressed?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: He is in his
3 underwear.
4 TOM HANEY: Just shorts or--
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
6 TOM HANEY: Okay. And what
7 conversation, what does he say to you?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: God, I can't
9 remember.
10 TOM HANEY: Okay. He still hasn't
11 felt the impact of this, right?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: No. He said, "you
13 know, slowdown" or "what is it, what is it", and
14 I said, you know, "I went downstairs, there is a
15 letter, says she's been kidnapped."
16 And he said, "where is the letter?"
17 I said -- I think I said, "oh, my
18 God, Burke" or something. And I think he ran in
19 to start to check on Burke.
20 TOM HANEY: So let's just do
21 this --
22 PATSY RAMSEY: And I said, "there
23 is a letter downstairs. "
24 TOM HANEY: So you--
25 PATSY RAMSEY: And I think I went
0043
1 down and got it. I just can't remember
2 everything.
3 TOM HANEY: To the best of your
4 recollection, we will just take a second here,
5 again with the red marker, let's indicate where
6 John goes? You said he goes to check on Burke?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: I think he went to
8 check on Burke.
9 TOM HANEY: Would you just draw
10 where he goes and then he leaves your sight so--
11 PATSY RAMSEY: He's not leaving my
12 sight. You know, he went through the first
13 room, he went this way.
14 TOM HANEY: Did he say he was going
15 to go check on Burke or did you tell him to, or
16 do you recall?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I just don't recall.
18 TOM HANEY: He leaves presumably,
19 to do that. You're standing here still, you're
20 the other red X. What do you do?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I went back
22 downstairs.
23 TOM HANEY: Maybe this time with a
24 broken line you can just indicate going back
25 down.
0044
1 (MS. RAMSEY COMPLIES.)
2 TOM HANEY: You're still the green
3 one. You come down the spiral stairs. The note
4 is--
5 PATSY RAMSEY: The note is --
6 TOM HANEY: -- same place,
7 different place?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Somewhere in this
9 area, maybe still on the floor or something, you
10 know. I don't know what happened to it exactly
11 when I bounded upstairs. I think it was right
12 there somewhere.
13 TOM HANEY: The second time you
14 don't recall exactly where it was?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it was
16 laying around on the floor here somewhere or
17 something. After I went up the stairs. It was
18 there somewhere. I know I came down here, and I
19 either handed it to John or he went in and
20 picked it up. Anyway I came over to the phone.
21 TOM HANEY: Let's stop there. He
22 came down the stairs. He has already gone to
23 presumably to check on her --
24 (Multiple speakers.)
25 TOM HANEY: And you come down here?
0045
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
2 TOM HANEY: So you get down there,
3 he is not there. I assume, John?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
5 TOM HANEY: Okay. What do you do
6 between the time you get down there and the time
7 that he does show up?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Just kind of
9 standing around in here. You know. I was
10 screaming and crying and --
11 TOM HANEY: Okay, and what -- okay,
12 what were you screaming, what were you saying?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I said, "oh, my God
14 how did they get in, why don't we hear
15 anything," you know, "where were they, how could
16 this happen?" I mean I was just --
17 TOM HANEY: So you're not reading
18 the note then?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
20 TOM HANEY: You're just wandering
21 around in this area?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
23 TOM HANEY: And that's the area
24 just--
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Like the --
0046
1 TOM HANEY: -- south of the spiral
2 stairs?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. This, the
4 little bar, sort of like in this little area. I
5 was just like, you know, indicating (INAUDIBLE).
6 TOM HANEY: And where do you see
7 John, when did you see him next? Use red for
8 him?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I don't know
10 how -- I mean the next thing I remember, I
11 was -- he was saying, "call the police, call the
12 police," he had the note and he was kneeling
13 right here.
14 TOM HANEY: Okay, let's stop you
15 again. You're in here and I understand --
16 understandably you're pacing around?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
18 TOM HANEY: And screaming. When
19 and where do you see John?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: In this area
21 (indicating).
22 TOM HANEY: And what is he doing
23 there?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: He said -- you know,
25 I said "there is the note." I think I handed
0047
1 him the note here, somehow in this space he got
2 the note.
3 TOM HANEY: Okay, let's just put an
4 X on this main floor diagram, where you first
5 see John again.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay, right here.
7 TOM HANEY: So you don't know if he
8 went to check on Burke, came down the front
9 stairs and then came down through the kitchen?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
11 TOM HANEY: But he appears there?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
13 TOM HANEY: Take that back just --
14 what discussion do you two have there?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean I was just
16 saying, "how did they get in, how did this
17 happen, who would do this?"
18 You know, screaming, screaming.
19 "What's the note say?"
20 John is saying "call 911, call
21 911."
22 TOM HANEY: Now that was his
23 initial response?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
25 TOM HANEY: Was that before or
0048
1 after he had a chance to read the note?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, he was crouched
3 on his knees here in his underwear. He laid the
4 papers out right there, 1, 2, 3 and was reading
5 it like this.
6 TOM HANEY: Let me back you up
7 again. You said a minute ago something to the
8 effect that maybe you went and got him the note.
9 Do you know how he--
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know
11 exactly. Maybe he will remember. But I mean I
12 left the note somewhere here, whether I picked
13 it up and threw it down, just took off. And
14 then came back down the stairs, and whether I
15 picked it up, and then he came down, I gave it
16 to him. And said here's the note or whatever.
17 TOM HANEY: Now are you just
18 guessing or do you know--
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't remember
20 exactly.
21 TOM HANEY: Okay.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: But I know I left
23 the note here and then when he came I was
24 walking around here, he picked up the note or
25 had the note somehow, was down on the floor
0049
1 reading it.
2 TOM HANEY: And again the area we
3 are talking about you have marked with an X
4 where you see him.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
6 TOM HANEY: Would you just show us
7 where those pages are, put a 1, 2, and 3 how
8 they are laid out?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Here he was facing
10 this one.
11 TOM HANEY: He is facing to the
12 south and that's according to the north on the
13 diagram?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
15 TOM HANEY: Okay, he is there, he
16 was in his underwear on his hands and knees. I
17 think that's a wood floor there?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
19 TOM HANEY: Okay. Is there a light
20 on there then?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, just this hall
22 light here.
23 TOM HANEY: Do you recall did you
24 or he turn it on?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
0050
1 TOM HANEY: Where are you while he
2 is doing that?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: I am on the phone
4 right here. Phone right here.
5 TOM HANEY: Let's just put a T for
6 the telephone there?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: (COMPLIES WITH
8 REQUEST).
9 TOM HANEY: And you're standing
10 right there. You already said that John told
11 you call 911?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
13 TOM HANEY: And then you walk over
14 to the phone?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
16 TOM HANEY: And he is doing what?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: He's on his hands
18 like this (indicating), on his -- like crouched
19 on his knees, reading it.
20 TOM HANEY: And what is he saying?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Nothing much. He
22 said, "call the police, we have got to call the
23 police."
24 TOM HANEY: And how does he say it,
25 is it like that?
0051
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Just like that.
2 TOM HANEY: Cool?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Pretty --
4 TOM HANEY: He is pretty cool and
5 calm?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I was nuts, he
7 was -- I mean shaking but he was trying to --
8 TOM HANEY: You say you were nuts?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
10 TOM HANEY: Are you still
11 screaming, yelling, crying?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I mean I was
13 just in shock. You know, you know, just how did
14 they get in, who did this, my God, what are we
15 going to do?
16 TOM HANEY: Now, the phone that's
17 there, that's a fixed phone?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding, no audible
19 answer).
20 TOM HANEY: And the phone number
21 there for that phone, do you recall? Let me ask
22 it another way. Are there other phone lines
23 into the house, do you have more than one
24 number?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, I can't
0052
1 remember. We had a fax machine up in John's
2 office. And the computer, although we never go
3 on the Internet on that, I don't think. I don't
4 know. I think it's just one.
5 TOM HANEY: Just one, possibly a
6 second for the fax and the computer or the
7 modem?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I can't
9 remember. I think there was only one. It seems
10 like when we got a fax I had to run upstairs and
11 turn the fax machine on, because they come on
12 the same line. I mean the phone had 6 buttons
13 set or something but that was the previous
14 owners that had that put in.
15 TOM HANEY: To the best of your
16 knowledge just the one line?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I think we just had
18 one.
19 TOM HANEY: One number? Okay.
20 Now, I have to stop you here because at my house
21 if there is an emergency, if there is a problem
22 and my wife is screaming and yelling and
23 panicked, I wouldn't have her call anybody.
24 Because they would never figure out what she is
25 saying. And it sounds like you're in kind of an
0053
1 emotional state, and John, he is the CEO, he is
2 cool, he is calm, he is down there, he is
3 processing this note and he tells you to call
4 911?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
6 TOM HANEY: It just seems kind of
7 odd to me. What --
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know whether
9 it's odd or not, but that's what happened.
10 TOM HANEY: Okay.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, you know, I
12 had it together enough to call. And I said,
13 this is Patsy Ramsey at 755 15th Street or
14 whatever. She I think she was trying to make
15 sure I got it out, you know.
16 TOM HANEY: In fact, you got it out
17 pretty good, you got the address which a lot of
18 callers who call the police, who call 911 --
19 PATSY RAMSEY: -- can't remember
20 their names.
21 TOM HANEY: Well, they don't give
22 the address. You seemed to give the address
23 pretty quick. When you called did you practice
24 this, did you rehearse, did you think about what
25 you were going to say?
0054
1 PATSY RAMSEY: No, no, just
2 instantaneously, you know.
3 TOM HANEY: Okay, and it just came
4 out like that. So John is down there reading it
5 and you call 911. You have this conversation
6 with them. What happens at the end of that?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: When I hung up, they
8 said they would send somebody out, and I don't
9 know, I think John went to get dressed. I was
10 you know, was just pacing around here praying.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: You say he was in his
12 underwear.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: What does underwear
15 consist of?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: His briefs.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Anything else?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: So he was otherwise
20 naked except for his briefs?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.
22 TOM HANEY: Now with the green
23 again, if you could just mark, you say you were
24 just kind of pacing. Is that through the
25 kitchen area?
0055
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
2 TOM HANEY: If you would just draw
3 a line through there?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: (Ms. Ramsey
5 complies.)
6 TOM HANEY: You said John leaves
7 your sight?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
9 TOM HANEY: Do you know where he
10 goes then?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, not exactly.
12 I just presume he went up to get dressed,
13 because he came back downstairs dressed.
14 TOM HANEY: How long was he gone?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. Oh, I
16 don't know. Ten minutes. I am just guessing.
17 I mean, I wasn't watching my clock or anything.
18 TOM HANEY: Absolutely. So do you
19 know, does he go back up the back stairs?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know for
21 sure. But very likely.
22 TOM HANEY: Do you know, did he
23 take the note with him?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
25 TOM HANEY: So you're just pacing
0056
1 and you have indicated between the front door
2 and the telephone area on the west side of the
3 kitchen.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding with no
5 audible response).
6 TOM HANEY: And John leaves your
7 sight?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
9 TOM HANEY: Is there any discussion
10 with him before he goes about what he's going to
11 do or what you're going to do?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I remember.
13 TOM HANEY: Then he's gone for you
14 say five or ten minutes. Where do you next see
15 him? I just ask you to put a circle.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Circle this time.
17 TOM HANEY: A circle where he is
18 when you next see him?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, probably in this
20 area, when the officer came we kind of both met
21 him there.
22 TOM HANEY: So you didn't, between
23 the time that you hung up the phone and he left,
24 you don't see John again until about the time
25 the officer shows?
0057
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that's the
2 first time I remember seeing him.
3 TOM HANEY: Let's take a minute and
4 think about it. Because it seems like from the
5 prior statement that he had done some things or
6 that you had guys had had some discussions about
7 him checking doors?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, well, you
9 know, he did that when I was pacing back here,
10 "how did he get in, how did he get in?"
11 I remember John checking this door
12 and that was usually always unlocked because
13 that goes to the garage.
14 TOM HANEY: Was this prior to the
15 phone call to 911?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: This probably was.
17 You know, we were just right in there. You
18 know, I just don't -- this all happened so fast.
19 TOM HANEY: So at some point there,
20 though, he checks that door to--
21 PATSY RAMSEY: He checks that, I
22 think he checked this one.
23 TOM HANEY: Okay, let's stick with
24 the garage door first, the walk-in door. What
25 did he do to check that?
0058
1 PATSY RAMSEY: He opened the door
2 and kind of jiggled the handle, you know, to see
3 whether it was locked or not.
4 TOM HANEY: Is it normally locked?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: It's normally
6 unlocked, because this is the garage door and
7 that's where you come in.
8 TOM HANEY: So checking that and
9 moving the handle--
10 PATSY RAMSEY: It sometimes
11 accidentally gets locked, and we get locked out,
12 but typically it's left open, left unlocked.
13 TOM HANEY: Is it just a little
14 button to--
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
16 TOM HANEY: When you turn that to
17 go out and it will lock itself?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
19 TOM HANEY: But he checks that?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
21 TOM HANEY: And then after that you
22 said he checked this other door, that door on
23 the south side between the study and the
24 kitchen?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, I think he did
0059
1 that.
2 TOM HANEY: Would you just indicate
3 a line then indicating his travel from the
4 garage door to the--
5 PATSY RAMSEY: He went to check
6 that door and then checked this door.
7 TOM HANEY: Okay. Is there more--
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Or vice versa, you
9 know, I think he might have even have gone down
10 to this door.
11 TOM HANEY: Did you say see him go
12 down there or was your feeling or you remember
13 him going down that way?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I just kind of -- I
15 mean, I was just out of my mind, I am crying, I
16 am crying, I am stammering, and he is like
17 walking around everywhere, like checking -- sort
18 of checking around.
19 TOM HANEY: And you think he
20 checked that door?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I think he went down
22 there.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: Why?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: That's just, this
25 house has so darn many doors, you know, just to
0060
1 see if that was left unlocked or something or
2 maybe I don't --
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Take a moment and try
4 to remember what it is you remember about him
5 going down there.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I just seem to
7 remember him walking down the stairs. Because I
8 don't know that I actually saw him, you know,
9 but I vaguely remember him --
10 TRIP DeMUTH: You do have a memory
11 of him going down the stairs towards the butler
12 kitchen?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I think so. I
14 can't say for sure, but I think so.
15 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. The garage
16 door, did you ask her if it was locked or
17 unlocked?
18 TOM HANEY: Yeah, but go ahead.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know
20 whether it was or not, but typically we left
21 that unlocked.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: You don't know what
23 condition it was in?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: What about the south
0061
1 door?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
3 TOM HANEY: Did you yourself check
4 any doors?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
6 TOM HANEY: Or John checked two
7 that we know of, the garage and this south door
8 and possibly--
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Possibly that one.
10 TOM HANEY: Did he ever tell you
11 that he checked that butler door?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
13 TOM HANEY: So he is checking those
14 doors and that would have been the, to put this
15 in sequence, prior to your 911 call.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I don't know
17 if it was prior or not. No, no. I think I
18 called the 911 pretty quick, because he was
19 still in his underwear. And I think when he was
20 checking those doors he was dressed.
21 TOM HANEY: Okay, all right. So--
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean this
23 happened, you know, within minutes of all of
24 this going upstairs here.
25 TOM HANEY: Almost immediately?
0062
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Almost immediately.
2 TOM HANEY: That you're on that
3 phone?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
5 TOM HANEY: And then he is reading
6 the note and then is that when he is checking
7 the doors or are you saying that he was dressed
8 when he was checking them?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Gosh, I don't know I
10 don't remember exactly. It's been a long time.
11 These are the kinds of questions I wish we could
12 have done way the hell a long time ago.
13 TOM HANEY: Absolutely.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: They are now but --
15 TOM HANEY: As we are--
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe he can
17 remember. I just remember by this time I am
18 hysterical.
19 TOM HANEY: And as we are going
20 through this, if there were things that you
21 remember specifically, those are the important
22 things. If it's something that somebody else
23 has helped jog your memory, whether it's someone
24 you talked to or something you have seen or
25 read, you know, we want to be able to
0063
1 distinguish between those; okay. All right.
2 So we have made the phone call, we
3 have checked some doors and the exact sequence
4 of the door checking we are not sure of, but
5 you're again standing in this area between the
6 front door and there. Can you say how long
7 before the officer arrived?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: God, it seemed like
9 forever, though I am sure it was fairly quickly.
10 I mean seconds are hours, you know.
11 TOM HANEY: Sure. Do you ever
12 again leave this floor after you made that 911
13 call? Do you go anywhere else, do you go down
14 the stairs to the basement?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
16 TOM HANEY: You don't go anywhere
17 else yourself?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I mostly went over
19 here, by that time I told you I called the
20 Whites and Fernies, they came.
21 TOM HANEY: You called the Whites
22 and the Fernies. Do you recall who first or--
23 PATSY RAMSEY: I think I called the
24 Whites first.
25 TOM HANEY: Were they closer to
0064
1 you?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, we had just
3 gone there the night before, you know, and --
4 and I just dialed them up. They and the Fernies
5 were like our best friends, you know.
6 TOM HANEY: Let's take the call to
7 the Whites first. I think that was the
8 sequence?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I think so.
10 TOM HANEY: And you called them.
11 Who answered, what is said?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I think Priscilla
13 answered. And I mean, I don't know what I said
14 exactly. But somehow communicated to her that
15 JonBenet was gone and had been kidnapped and
16 could they come over. I don't know. I was just
17 hysterical.
18 Then I hung up the phone and called
19 the Fernies. And I believe John Fernie
20 answered.
21 TOM HANEY: Do you recall exactly
22 what you told him?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: I said -- I said --
24 I am not sure if I told him -- I just can't
25 remember what I told. "Oh, please, you got to
0065
1 come, please can you bring someone over" or
2 something. I don't remember.
3 TOM HANEY: And understanding that
4 they are close friends, but did you think that,
5 give any thought to having all this traffic
6 coming over?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
8 TOM HANEY: Folks coming to the
9 house?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
11 TOM HANEY: You had gotten through
12 that portion of the note that talked about don't
13 call the police, the FBI?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
15 TOM HANEY: We are watching you or
16 something like that?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I know.
18 TOM HANEY: How long does it take
19 for them to get over there?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it would have
21 been just pretty quick.
22 TOM HANEY: How much after the
23 arrival of the first officer?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Not much. Just, I
25 don't know, 15 minutes, you know.
0066
1 TOM HANEY: Let me back you up
2 again. We talked about that phone, possible
3 phone lines. Did you folks at that time have
4 any other phones, any cell phones, cellular--
5 PATSY RAMSEY: John had a cell
6 phone. And I had just gotten a cell phone at
7 Christmas, little teeny one.
8 TOM HANEY: Was it activated?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's
10 activated when you buy it.
11 TOM HANEY: It's not much of a
12 present if it doesn't work?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, I think it was
14 activated.
15 TOM HANEY: Probably. Do you
16 recall the phone number?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
18 TOM HANEY: How about John's cell
19 phone, do you recall that number?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
21 TOM HANEY: Did he have just the
22 one, was that a personal one?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: He had had one and
24 he lost it. See, I had gotten him one years
25 ago, and he -- I think he lost and then --
0067
1 anyway, I had gotten this little teeny Panasonic
2 one at, what's that store -- that music video
3 store near the Boulder. Sound Tracks, one of
4 those, Sound Advice or -- and I had it -- I had
5 it sitting on the window ledge charging and he
6 walked in and found it, I said okay fine, I will
7 just take this one.
8 And I think meanwhile, Denise, his
9 secretary had ordered him a new phone.
10 TOM HANEY: Okay, was that an Access
11 Graphics phone?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Access Graphics, yes. I
13 mean there were a couple of phones and they were
14 both relatively new and I don't know what the
15 number was.
16 TOM HANEY: And where were they
17 normally kept?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.
19 TOM HANEY: His--
20 PATSY RAMSEY: His was usually
21 charging somewhere, probably in his briefcase or
22 something.
23 TOM HANEY: Did he have a charger
24 set up somewhere though or--
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, I don't
0068
1 remember.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. And between the
3 time that you folks had returned from the Whites
4 on Christmas night, and this call to the Boulder
5 police in the morning, on the 26th, had you made
6 or received any phone calls on any of those
7 lines?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I recall,
9 no.
10 TOM HANEY: Of course anything that
11 would have disturbed your sleep you would have
12 recalled that?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yeah.
14 TOM HANEY: Anything major in that
15 time frame?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you ever go
18 up and check on Burke, you yourself?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yeah. I mean,
20 you mean like that or --
21 TOM HANEY: This morning, the 26th.
22 Let's get you back there. We are still pacing
23 around?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I don't
25 think I did. I think John said he was fine
0069
1 and -- I can't -- I just can't recall that I
2 did.
3 TOM HANEY: Okay. So do you recall
4 at what point you and John had this discussion
5 about Burke, you said he said Burke was fine?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Somewhere in this
7 bedlam, you know, that was --
8 TOM HANEY: Okay, and again, prior
9 to or after the arrival of the officers?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably prior to.
11 TOM HANEY: Okay. So he goes quiet
12 then when you see him down there again that's in
13 fact what he had done?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: That's right.
15 TOM HANEY: When he was upstairs.
16 All right, you lost sight of him on the second
17 floor. So Burke is fine, you don't go up there.
18 The officer comes and then you say he takes you
19 into the solarium. If you would again, just
20 mark--
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean I think that
22 we talked a little bit here and sort of moved
23 over this way.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: And in here is that
25 --
0070
1 PATSY RAMSEY: That's the foyer.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: The foyer, okay.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, in
4 there somewhere.
5 TOM HANEY: And you said that the
6 Whites and the Fernies joined you shortly after
7 that. Do they also come in here in this
8 solarium area?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE). We
10 were -- we were kind -- we were in this area
11 here. I mean, I don't remember where we were at
12 any one point. A lot of people started coming
13 in, two older women from -- I don't know where
14 they were from. They were like helpers. A
15 helper.
16 TOM HANEY: Directory assistance
17 folks (difficult to understand)?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, these older
19 ladies, they were in here, and I was just in
20 here, this is like my little area.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: The solarium.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I just hover,
23 when I was sick, I recouped a lot in there
24 and I was just in there praying and
25 praying and praying and then Linda Arndt
0071
1 came, she introduced herself to me and
2 said they were going to set up the wire
3 tap so then John was with her and kind of
4 taking care of business, they were all
5 back in here.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: This study?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
8 TOM HANEY: Anything else?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Father Rol came, he
10 was standing right here praying.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: The living room?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: The living room.
13 TOM HANEY: Let me just set this
14 aside and make sure, we will come back to all of
15 these later, but we will take just kind of a
16 break from that and what I want to do is talk
17 for a couple of minutes about various people who
18 have come up in this investigation, various
19 names.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you want to take a
21 break before we do this?
22 TOM HANEY: It's about 10:19 and we
23 will take a break now, five, ten, somewhere.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
25 (Recess taken).
0072
1 TOM HANEY: Okay, we are back on
2 tape. I have 10:30. And before we go into the
3 names that I mentioned, we do have a couple of
4 follow-up questions.
5 One, would the children normally go
6 downstairs if they woke up or would they stay on
7 their floor or--
8 PATSY RAMSEY: They would typically
9 stay on their floor. They had a TV, play room,
10 stay on that floor.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: So in the middle of
12 the night did they ever go downstairs, if they
13 woke up in the night would they go down into the
14 kitchen, let's say?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: And could you hear
17 them go to the bathroom?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I could hear
19 Burke go to the bathroom, because his
20 bathroom is sort of more toward the end of
21 our bedroom.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: How about
23 JonBenet?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I wouldn't hear her
25 go.
0073
1 TRIP DeMUTH: Could you hear her
2 toilet flush or anything, the plumbing?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Could you hear
5 the garage door from your bedroom go up and
6 down?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
8 TRIP DeMUTH: Go ahead, Tom.
9 TOM HANEY: In the earlier
10 interview, and I think it was the one on April
11 30 last year, the Whites' name came up as
12 because they were formerly very good friends
13 that you called that morning, but people that
14 you were now suspicious of or something about
15 their behavior.
16 Could you tell us what about them
17 has changed and what you have noticed?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I guess --
19 every --
20 TOM HANEY: Be candid.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, everything
22 that -- you know, I mean, everything. Our
23 relationship was perfectly normal and fine, and
24 like I said, there are close friends who called
25 first thing that morning. And it was a very
0074
1 traumatic morning, obviously, for everyone
2 there. And people handled things differently,
3 and I know that -- but, suffice to say that
4 Fleet and Priscilla, Fleet probably more so,
5 just on a number of different occasions started
6 reacting very strangely.
7 TOM HANEY: Okay. How did he
8 react?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Well --
10 TOM HANEY: What did he react to.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I guess the
12 first -- let's see. The first time -- I mean,
13 you know, after we found JonBenet, I mean I was
14 just in shock and really was -- was not paying
15 too much attention to things. But the first
16 time I really realized that something was amiss
17 was when we were going to go to Atlanta for the
18 funeral on the Lockheed plane, and there was
19 some like scuttle, confusion or something, why
20 Fleet was not going on that plane. I mean our
21 close friends that had been basically -- you
22 know, I don't know what they were doing, John
23 and my girlfriends were bathing me and feeding
24 me and taking me to the bathroom. I mean I was
25 just immobile for all intents and purposes.
0075
1 And -- and I just remember hearing
2 something that John Fernie was going to detain
3 Fleet because he was in no condition to be put
4 on that plane.
5 TOM HANEY: No condition due to?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: He was -- and like I
7 say, I am kind of like just catching, you know,
8 wafts of these conversations. But that was my
9 first recollection. I picked up on something
10 that Fleet was not acting right. And they were
11 going to keep him from going on the private
12 plane back to Atlanta.
13 So anyway, I didn't want to think
14 too much about it, and then when we were in
15 Atlanta, I just sort of remember Priscilla
16 standing in my mother's living room, family
17 room, you know, just kind of like this and
18 saying, "well, I know what's going on" and she
19 said, "if you would give me a few minutes of
20 your time, I could let you in on some things."
21 And I turned to her and I said,
22 "Priscilla, how can you know so much?" And I
23 said, "I am the mother of this child. And I
24 know nothing."
25 TOM HANEY: What was she referring
0076
1 to?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't have a clue.
3 I really, I mean, you know, so many times I wish
4 I would have taken her up on it to see what the
5 hell she was talking about. There was just her
6 -- you know, it was just this kind of, I know
7 what's going on here and you don't. And if you
8 give me a few minutes of your time, I could clue
9 you in.
10 TOM HANEY: But she didn't give you
11 a clue or--
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Didn't say, didn't
13 say. So that was like the second little thing.
14 So then, let's see. We were at --
15 we were at my parents, and we had different
16 friends who had come in from Colorado and my
17 friends in Atlanta were putting them up in homes
18 and what not, and my understanding is that Fleet
19 and Priscilla had been invited by my brother and
20 sister-in-law Jeff Ramsey to stay in their home.
21 So I was in bed, and somebody,
22 either my sister, or another friend who was
23 staying there or something, said that Jeff had
24 just called to my parents' home, and said that
25 Fleet was totally off the deep end, had like
0077
1 gotten my brother-in-law and my brother-in-law
2 is -- you think my husband is docile, my
3 brother-in-law is, you know, very docile. Non-
4 confrontational. So Fleet got hold of Jeff's
5 collar, you know, like this, in his face, you
6 know, being very confrontational.
7 TOM HANEY: Is built --
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Sorry?
9 TOM HANEY: Is Fleet a pretty good
10 size?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, he's a large
12 man. And anyway, Jeff had called and said to my
13 dad, they are on their way to your house. Do
14 you have a gun? And I mean for Jeff Ramsey to
15 say something like this in pretty wild. So I
16 just remember, you know, somebody scooping me up
17 and Burke up and my mom and all this and we went
18 downstairs to our basement where my mother had
19 set up some temporary beds and then like, you
20 know, like thrown on the beds, like "don't
21 anybody say anything" and you know, John and my
22 dad were going to try to calm them down or
23 something. You know. Just --
24 TOM HANEY: Okay. What do you mean
25 again, what did--
0078
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, Jeff
2 was saying that Fleet is just crazy. He is
3 crazy, he is coming over there, I don't know
4 what's happened. You know, he's off his rocker.
5 TOM HANEY: Did he give you a clue
6 though? I mean here your good friends--
7 PATSY RAMSEY: See, I don't know,
8 because I wasn't -- wasn't having this --
9 TOM HANEY: The conversation?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I am like hearing
11 this thirdhand.
12 TOM HANEY: Okay.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: All I know is there
14 was like some big hubbub here about Fleet and
15 Priscilla were going nutso and they were coming
16 over and somebody just crazy, he is crazy, he is
17 coming over there, I don't know what's happened.
18 You know, he's off his rocker.
19 TOM HANEY: Did he give you a clue
20 though? I mean here your good friend's--
21 PATSY RAMSEY: See, I don't know
22 because I wasn't, I wasn't having this
23 conversation.
24 TOM HANEY: The conversation?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I am like hearing
0079
1 this thirdhand.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: All I know is this
4 was like some big hubbub here about Fleet and
5 Priscilla are going nutso and they are coming
6 over and everybody is afraid of them and
7 da-de-da-de-da.
8 TOM HANEY: So do they come over?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: They came over. I
10 do not see them, but John I think called down or
11 something, Jeff Ramsey said he did not want them
12 staying with them. I think John Ramsey and my
13 dad somehow got them to stay in a hotel or
14 something. There in Montreux (phonetic).
15 Then my dad said, you know, I don't
16 know what day this was, all these days were
17 running together. But then my father said that
18 Priscilla called, I guess they were on their way
19 back to Colorado, she called, my dad had just
20 reamed him out, said that she didn't like what
21 she saw in Atlanta one bit. She thought that
22 everything -- that all our friends were, you
23 know, hoity-toity, rich snobs and blah, blah,
24 blah. I mean, just like crazy things.
25 I mean, you know, here we are
0080
1 mourning the death of this child, for crying out
2 loud, and she goes off on this cultural
3 ventilation or something. You know, it just
4 didn't, it didn't make sense. And then so I
5 mean my dad -- (INAUDIBLE) -- so way that was
6 kind of a little incident.
7 TOM HANEY: Makes sense.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: And then so I mean
9 my dad is one (INAUDIBLE) so anyway, that was
10 kind of a little incident. But I think some
11 other things happened that I wasn't really privy
12 to. I think John may be more aware of.
13 But then the other time that was
14 really frightening to me is, we had come back to
15 Colorado and John and I were in Father Rol's
16 office, in the church, and my dad was sitting
17 out in the little waiting area. And Father Rol
18 and John and I were praying, and Fleet White
19 burst into the door, burst into the office.
20 And he is just, his eyes are just
21 wild. And you know, I kind of did this number,
22 and he got down on his knees, and looked like --
23 and had a business card in his hand, and he was
24 leaning over to my husband saying, "you know
25 what this is, John, you know what this means,
0081
1 John, you know what I am going to have to do
2 with this, John, I am going to have to handle
3 this my way, John."
4 I mean he was just on and on and
5 on. And I said, "Fleet, Fleet, what is it?"
6 And he handed me this business card
7 and it was a business card from some journalist
8 or something, and it had a note on the back.
9 And it said, I don't know exactly word for word,
10 but something to the effect of, you know, Mr.
11 White, there has been some question as to
12 whether it was you or John Ramsey who removed
13 the tape from JonBenet's mouth. You know. And
14 about the sequence of the basement discovery.
15 Because we had talking about this.
16 Well, he said they are after me and
17 my family now, John, I am going to have to
18 handle -- and he was just like a maniac and
19 Father Rol said to calm down and you know, he
20 said, "I am going to handle it my way, John, my
21 way, John and you know, Father Rol was just
22 trying to get them to calm down. "It's okay
23 Fleet," you know, "what do you mean by your
24 way?" You know, calm down. You know, it will
25 be okay.
0082
1 So that was just, that just shook
2 me, you know, and then there are just -- you
3 know, may or may not know just kind of
4 subsequent things, like instead of going to the
5 governor in Colorado they went to the governor
6 of Colorado and asked that Hunter be taken off
7 the case or that he was doing a bad job or
8 something, and I mean this is like a year later,
9 you know, and I mean they are still just -- so,
10 I mean, you know, I am trying to say okay,
11 everybody was traumatized, you know. Try to put
12 my shoe on the other foot.
13 If had been Daphne, if I had been
14 there, what would I have done, you know. But I
15 mean, my God, you know, it's my child, and I
16 have been trying to get my family back to some
17 semblance of normalcy. My child in the school
18 and friends and you know. And I don't read
19 newspapers, and I can't watch television,
20 because it you know, value else me and surfaces
21 it all over again. You know, and then to hear
22 these people who are not even related and they
23 are going to the governor and trying to you know
24 I mean just kind of weird to me.
25 Maybe I am reading things into it.
0083
1 I don't know. I can't imagine, you know, that
2 anybody that has children -- you know, when you
3 have children you know what a precious life that
4 is, and you know what a -- you know, I can't
5 imagine that you can do that to another child.
6 I can't -- I can't bring myself to think that
7 they would have actually done this. But
8 somebody did it. You know.
9 And we have been told that it's a
10 lady that knew us, knew we were leaving, knew we
11 were there. The dog wasn't there, knew we
12 didn't use the alarm, you know, so --
13 TOM HANEY: And these were all
14 things that the Whites would have known?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
16 TOM HANEY: So do you suspect
17 Fleet?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, God, you know, I
19 just -- you know, I -- I guess in a way I look
20 at everybody as a suspect. And with this
21 erratic behavior it sounds pretty freaky to me.
22 Last night we were reading through
23 some paperwork or something, and I don't
24 remember whether somebody interviewed Fleet and
25 it was something that was like, wait a minute,
0084
1 that's (INAUDIBLE) I mean to -- but he knew --
2 he knew so much detail about the letter. It's
3 just something about, and this has been
4 somebody, I forget who -- I am rambling.
5 Somebody had interviewed Fleet and
6 then had written up a report about their
7 findings and that he seemed to know almost word
8 for word the ransom letter and he commented
9 about how the structure of it was so well tied
10 together. I mean, I have read the ransom
11 letter, I couldn't tell you what the structure
12 was, you know. He seemed like really interested
13 or something. It seemed unusual to me.
14 So I mean, it would be a horrible
15 blow if I do find out that it was somebody that
16 was that close to us. But it was somebody and
17 there is, I guess -- I guess could be anybody.
18 TOM HANEY: What is your current
19 relationship with the Whites?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: We have not -- we
21 have not spoken.
22 TOM HANEY: When is the last time?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Well I -- when we
24 left town, right in the mild the incident, I
25 remember we were staying with the Stines, Glen
0085
1 and Susan Stine, Fleet White went in to Glen
2 Stine's office at the university, and leaned
3 across the table, demanding to let the Stines
4 see us. And Glen Stine said Fleet, you know,
5 settle down.
6 TOM HANEY: Fleet wanted the Stines
7 to let them (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS)?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: He was just saying
9 that the Stines were keeping us away from them,
10 which wasn't the case. But he was going there,
11 he went into the vice president of the
12 university and (INAUDIBLE). You know what,
13 irrational behavior.
14 TOM HANEY: Is this--
15 PATSY RAMSEY: So anyway, before I
16 left town, (INAUDIBLE) before I left town I took
17 a little teddy bear up to this kid and left a
18 note, little teddy bear, and left a note, opened
19 a card that said you know, we are leaving town
20 or something, JonBenet loves you and whatever.
21 I don't know.
22 And then subsequently I had written
23 a couple of notes, I found a picture of Daphne,
24 that I sent to her and I think I wrote a note,
25 there was a story, one of the tabloids had their
0086
1 photographs, said Ramseys accusing best friends
2 or something, please don't believe these
3 horrible stories, you know.
4 But you know, not (INAUDIBLE) the
5 next thing I heard that they were down in the
6 governor's office (INAUDIBLE).
7 TOM HANEY: This behavior that you
8 have talked about with Fleet pounded on the desk
9 and things, is that out of character for him or
10 is he kind of like that?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean as far as I
12 ever saw, because he was, he didn't -- I don't
13 know exactly what he did for a living. He was
14 not working a nine to five job. You know, I
15 think he was in California, had been in the oil
16 kind of business, so he said, but so he was
17 around the house a lot. He took the kids to
18 school. He dressed them. He -- we called him
19 affectionately Mr. Mom and he just said he was
20 taking a couple of years kind of hiatus to
21 figure it out and get something else going.
22 (The video portion of the tape
23 stopped). So he was always just very loving and
24 he was kind of like a lovable giant kind of, you
25 know, big guy, but just very tender and very --
0087
1 sweet guy, you know. So this, you know,
2 especially that time when he was in Father Rol's
3 office and his eyes were just crazed. I mean I
4 was just staying there going "oh, my God, what
5 has gotten into him."
6 So yes, yes. You know. There is a
7 flicker, you know.
8 TOM HANEY: Prior to the death,
9 what was Fleet's behavior like, especially
10 regarding JonBenet?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: He, I mean, adored
12 our children. You know. They played together a
13 lot. They were at our house, you know, a lot.
14 My children were at their house playing. They
15 had been up to the lake with us, a number of
16 times, for two, three weeks at a time.
17 (The video portion resumed.)
18 PATSY RAMSEY: You know we were I
19 mean --
20 TOM HANEY: Was there anything in
21 this prior behavior that looking back now seems
22 unusual?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, Priscilla was
24 never crazy about me doing this whole pageant
25 with JonBenet, she thought that was just totally
0088
1 unnecessary, because she said you know, it's
2 just not the thing to do. Well, you know, I had
3 grown up doing it, I enjoyed it, I had a lot of
4 friends who had done it. I had very good
5 experience with it. So that's what I brought to
6 the table. My daughter was a performer, she was
7 beautiful, she was outgoing, and flourished in
8 that type of an environment. Daphne was not.
9 You know.
10 So Priscilla would oftentimes say
11 to me, you know, you just, you shouldn't do
12 that, you know, that's not a good thing to
13 happen.
14 I thought, you know, well, you
15 raise your children the way you do and we don't
16 all raise our children the same. So you know,
17 kind of looking back at that and think, you
18 know, did that really get to her or something.
19 I don't know (INAUDIBLE).
20 TOM HANEY: Was there anything else
21 in either of -- either's behavior prior to the
22 death that you like you said looking back now,
23 outside of the pageant thing?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I mean John said
25 -- he and Fleet sailed together, and they were
0089
1 taking -- and Fleet has been sailing for years.
2 I mean he sailed big yachts in the Pacific Ocean
3 and da-de-da-de-da, and so John was getting
4 ready for this Mackinaw Island race and he Fleet
5 were going to move our sailboat from Charlevoix
6 to wherever this race was going to be held, I
7 forget where, Chicago or something.
8 Well, they were in the moves and
9 were pulling into a harbor someplace, and had a
10 big wave and somehow the ropes got spun up in
11 the propeller, kicked off the engine, and they
12 were heading for the --
13 TOM HANEY: Dock?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: The wall. The ocean
15 wall or whatever they call that wall.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: The shore?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: The wall, whatever.
18 And he said Fleet -- and Fleet was supposed to
19 be the experienced yachtsman, you know, he said
20 Fleet just panicked, you know. I mean he was
21 just, John said he was really surprised because
22 I mean here is John who is certainly the layman,
23 and he immediately was trying to, you know, turn
24 the thing backwards and trying to get it out or
25 some, you know, but Fleet, he said Fleet just
0090
1 totally dropped his cool.
2 And long story short, somebody in
3 the yacht club saw them in trouble and the Coast
4 Guard came out and pulled them away from the
5 wall just in time. But John, kind of John's
6 first tip-off that, you know, he wasn't a -- as
7 capable under fire as maybe he would have
8 thought.
9 TOM HANEY: Did they -- did they
10 have words that day over it or was there some
11 problem or just like--
12 PATSY RAMSEY: No. You know, I
13 mean this was one of those stories you talk
14 about over a beer, you know (INAUDIBLE).
15 TOM HANEY: But nothing else?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TOM HANEY: Anything else about the
18 Whites?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Just I mean, we
20 just, their children were virtually the same
21 age. I just thought we will be life-long
22 friends, because, you know, I enjoyed her, John
23 enjoyed him, the kids had each other. I mean it
24 was just a perfect -- we liked to do a lot of
25 the same things, they seemed to have
0091
1 discretionary income to be able to go places
2 although in that respect John pointed out that
3 all the yacht races and all that stuff was
4 always on our tab. I didn't really pay
5 attention to who was paying for what, but we
6 would pay for the crew and everybody.
7 I always got the impression that
8 Fleet and Priscilla had either family money or
9 something like that. You know. But John said
10 when it came down to actually, you know,
11 splitting it or splitting the hotel or
12 something, that never really happened. So --
13 TRIP DeMUTH: How long did you know
14 them?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: We met the summer I
16 came back from the lake the first time, so that
17 would have been like September-ish of '94.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: You called Fleet Mr.
19 Mom. Why do you do that?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Just because he was
21 at home all the time. He took the kids to
22 school and he went to the classroom and he, I
23 mean -- she called him her live-in. Their
24 live-in nanny.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Did Priscilla work?
0092
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: So was she home most
3 of the time also?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: Who would supervise
6 JonBenet and Burke when they would go over to
7 the Whites' house?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Both of them.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Were there any
10 excursions or outings that Fleet White took your
11 children on as well as his children?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I am sure there
13 probably were.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: Any that you recall?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Not right off the
16 top of my head. I mean we went biking, out on
17 the bike trails once all together, all of us.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: Would Fleet ever
19 baby-sit the children?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I knew one
21 time in particular John, we were all up at the
22 lake, up at Charles Lake and John had to fly to
23 New York to do some business, New York City, and
24 Melinda was up there and the Whites. And
25 Priscilla said -- she said, "John is going to
0093
1 New York, let's go shopping for the day."
2 And I said, "who would keep the
3 kids?"
4 She said, "oh, Fleet can take care
5 of the kids."
6 I said, "oh, you're kidding."
7 She said, "no, come on, it would be
8 really fun, let's just go over there for the
9 day." I said okay.
10 So Melinda and Priscilla and myself
11 and Mike Archuleta and John flew to Manhattan,
12 John did his business there, and Priscilla and
13 Melinda and I and Mike Archuleta shopped around
14 for the day and then we flew back to Charles
15 Lake. When I got home, the house was a
16 disaster.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: How many times, how
18 often would Fleet be the baby-sitter for the
19 kids, that you can remember? Can you give me
20 any idea about that? Seldom, never, often?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I would say
22 when if my kids were over there, it would not be
23 unusual that he would be the baby-sitter,
24 because she might go running around or whatever
25 and he would sit or vice versa.
0094
1 TRIP DeMUTH: And how often were
2 your kids over at his home?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe once a week.
4 We hadn't seen them a whole lot that fall,
5 because our children were going to different
6 schools. And that was a little sticking point
7 with Priscilla.
8 TRIP DeMUTH: How did JonBenet feel
9 about Fleet? Did she ever indicate anything?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: Seemed fine?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Thanks, Tom.
14 TOM HANEY: When is the last time
15 you had any contact, personal contact? You said
16 you went to the fair but--
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably that
18 episode in Father Rol's office.
19 TOM HANEY: Can you pin that down,
20 approximately when that would have been?
21 Ballpark figure.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, early '97,
23 February-ish, probably.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: One more question.
25 If JonBenet was bothered by someone, do you
0095
1 think she would communicate that to you, or was
2 she a little more stoic about it, would keep it
3 to herself?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I think she would
5 have told because we had talked about all the
6 areas covered by your swim suit belong to
7 JonBenet. Not to anybody else. Mom can touch
8 those areas because, you know, and different
9 things, and Dr. Buff with mommy in the room,
10 those were the ground rules. Not daddy, not
11 Burke, not grampa, not anybody else but
12 JonBenet's, you know.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Did she have any
14 difficulty approaching you and talking to you
15 about maybe other children at school she was
16 having difficulty with, would she share those
17 kind of points?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Which one is it, she
20 would share?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: She did not have
22 difficulty. She will tell me everything.
23 TOM HANEY: While we are on the
24 subject, tell us a little bit about what you
25 did, not little, tell us what you told JonBenet
0096
1 and when and how did this start, about what
2 belongs to her and what's off limits and what
3 she would do?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I guess the
5 first time I started thinking about, you know,
6 you think kids are oh, to young to start talking
7 about that, but Pinky Barber, a friend of mine,
8 had been to a some kind of seminar on child
9 safety or something. And she wanted me to go
10 along and for some reason I couldn't attend with
11 her, so I discussed with her what -- you know,
12 she said well, that they spent some time talking
13 about how to talk with your children about
14 strangers and all that kind of stuff. And she
15 said I talked to my girls about it.
16 And I said you did? What did you
17 say? She said that's when this bathing suit
18 thing came up. She said I just tell them that
19 nobody touches you where the bathing suit
20 touches.
21 And I thought that was a really
22 great way to approach that, because, you know,
23 those little ones are -- there is boundaries,
24 you know. So JonBenet and I, I don't know,
25 maybe at bath time, maybe when I was putting on
0097
1 her bathing suit or something. You know, these
2 are JonBenet's private parts here, you know,
3 where the bathing suit touches and nobody ever
4 touches your private parts except mommy and
5 Dr. Buff with mommy in the room.
6 TOM HANEY: About when would you
7 have started conveying this idea to her?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably when she
9 was four.
10 TOM HANEY: And did you rehash it
11 with her, did you talk about it occasionally?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I mean it was
13 not a big, you know, deal. I mean Burke was
14 growing up, you know, becoming a little more
15 modest and so we would say, you know, you know,
16 that's Burke's bathroom. If he is in the
17 bathroom, you don't just barge in on somebody in
18 the bathroom. You knock and, you know. Those
19 kind of family kind of situations.
20 TOM HANEY: But her private parts,
21 as you were describing it, this wasn't I assume
22 a one-time conversation?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you know, I
24 probably mentioned it more than once. It wasn't
25 something I preached on every day, you know. It
0098
1 was kind of a --
2 TOM HANEY: Did she raise any
3 questions about that at the time or any time
4 since?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
6 TOM HANEY: It was pretty clear to
7 her?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
9 TOM HANEY: And your rules were you
10 or Dr. Buff, if you were in the room?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.
12 TOM HANEY: Let's now get to some
13 of these names that I talked about earlier.
14 First of all, I would like to show you a
15 photograph, and I just wrote up -- part of it's
16 covered up, so I just put an A because that's
17 the only way I can identify it at this point.
18 Just see if you can identify this person.
19 (Handing.)
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well --
21 TOM HANEY: Do you ever recall
22 seeing this person anywhere any time?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: (NO AUDIBLE ANSWER).
24 TRIP DeMUTH: That's a photograph
25 of Manfred Thornton.
0099
1 TOM HANEY: Let me just go through
2 these names, if you can tell me anything at all
3 about 'em. First of all, a Dale Flint?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: That rings a bell, I
5 think.
6 TOM HANEY: If you think of
7 something, we can come back to that. How about
8 a Daniel Melifit (Phonetic). Some of these I
9 may not pronounce exactly right. But Chris
10 Wolf?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Chris Wolf I have
12 heard his name.
13 TOM HANEY: And who is Chris Wolf?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Chris Wolf, I have
15 not met Chris Wolf, but his name came up as a
16 lead, I think on the tip of my or something,
17 someone checked on him, and sent me a picture of
18 him I think and I didn't recognize him.
19 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you know who
20 sent you the photograph?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Ellis probably. Or
22 Jennifer, yes.
23 TOM HANEY: Jennifer--
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Getty (phonetic),
25 works with --
0100
1 TOM HANEY: How about a Rob
2 Clemens.
3 VOICE: Sorry, so no
4 knowledge of Chris Wolf prior to --
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
6 TOM HANEY: And when you saw the
7 photo of him you didn't recognize him, never
8 seen him?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
10 TOM HANEY: Rob Clemens?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head). New
12 York accent. (INAUDIBLE) his name of from --
13 (INAUDIBLE). I wouldn't know him if he walked
14 through the door, but the name rings a bell.
15 TOM HANEY: How about Brian
16 Gilmore?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Nope.
18 TOM HANEY: And Edwin Danover?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
20 TOM HANEY: Jack Logan?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
22 TOM HANEY: Otto Riggata
23 (phonetic)?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
25 TOM HANEY: Richard Lichtenhill
0101
1 (phonetic)?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
3 TOM HANEY: A Michael Rightson
4 (phonetic)?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: (No response).
6 TOM HANEY: Ron Bloom?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: (No response).
8 TOM HANEY: Okay. Gary Oliva?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: (No response).
10 TOM HANEY: A Rodney Wilson?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
12 TOM HANEY: Frank Harrell?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)
14 Harold or --
15 TOM HANEY: Harrell, H-A-R-R-E-L-L.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TOM HANEY: Okay. An Isaac
18 Webster?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
20 TOM HANEY: All right, Jeffrey
21 Simpson?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
23 TOM HANEY: A Keith Brown?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
25 TOM HANEY: A Thomas Silvie
0102
1 (phonetic)?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
3 TOM HANEY: A Ray Fitzgerald?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Ray Fitzgerald --
5 Ray Fitzgerald is my (INAUDIBLE). Irving
6 Fitzgerald.
7 TOM HANEY: Is there a --
8 TRIP DeMUTH: Could you tell me how
9 you know him?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: He is the
11 master up at AIH, the cancer institute
12 over at Bethesda.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: If he was going
14 to call you, where would he call you,
15 which home would he call you at?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, he's
17 recently written me a letter in Atlanta.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: At the time of
19 the--
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, then he
21 would have called Boulder.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: Did he have
23 your Charlevoix home number?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't
25 think he would. Oh, perhaps, because it's
0103
1 probably on record there. In the office.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: He left a
3 message on your Charlevoix answering
4 machine?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, he did? Okay.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: So that's why we
7 asked about him.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
9 TOM HANEY: Michael Hilga
10 (phonetic)?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (No response).
12 TOM HANEY: Donald Bartlett?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Donald Bartlett?
14 There is a Bartlett Interiors in Charlevoix.
15 Did Charlevoix call -- (INAUDIBLE).
16 TOM HANEY: A Gilberto Rubio?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: That I believe is
18 the guy that made the gingerbread house.
19 TOM HANEY: What contact did you
20 have with him?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: He was a friend of
22 Bob Wallace's, Bob Wallace was a young man who
23 was washing my (INAUDIBLE), and subsequently, he
24 did a lot of floral arrangement for preparation
25 for the Christmas open house in '94. And
0104
1 Gilberto Rubio was a pastry chef in Denver, so
2 they told me. A friend of Bob's. And he
3 photographed the house and then built a
4 gingerbread house to look like our house.
5 TOM HANEY: And do you know who he
6 worked for in Denver?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
8 TOM HANEY: Did you ever have him
9 inside the house?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
11 TOM HANEY: More than one occasion
12 or--
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Um I -- I think just
14 one occasion he came in, delivered the house,
15 and you know, touched it up, the frosting and
16 little -- (INAUDIBLE).
17 TOM HANEY: So he was just in the
18 one time?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
20 TOM HANEY: He had been there prior
21 to November?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding).
23 TOM HANEY: A Brian Perry?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: (Whispering under
25 breath).
0105
1 TOM HANEY: He has a wife if this
2 helps, Amy Rook?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yes, Brian Perry
4 is the church sexton. He is the like a
5 custodian, uh-hum.
6 TOM HANEY: Had he ever been in the
7 house?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
9 TOM HANEY: Ever have any contact
10 with him?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, at the church,
12 yeah. Um, um, yeah, he would help put up Easter
13 decorations and things like that. And I had
14 talked with Father Rol about having the church
15 cleaned periodically, professionally, because I
16 didn't feel like Brian was cutting the mustard
17 very well, and -- that job there. You know, I
18 was kind of talking with the junior warden about
19 that.
20 I mean, I went over there one time
21 with a couple of cleaning ladies and polished
22 the sanctuary prior to Easter service, because
23 it was just absolutely filthy dirty. And had
24 the front doors painted at my expense. Brian
25 assisted in that. In choosing the color and all
0106
1 that. You know, took a hose to -- I mean a lot
2 of people would sleep on the sidewalks around
3 there and urinate, and everything was vile. And
4 Easter Sunday was coming up and it just smelled
5 horrible and he went over there with a hose,
6 hosed the whole building down, the whole front
7 area down.
8 TOM HANEY: So did you kind of--
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I may have ruffled
10 his feathers a little bit.
11 TOM HANEY: Did he lose his job
12 over that?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: No, no.
14 TOM HANEY: Or grab crack the whip
15 on him?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Not to my knowledge.
17 I was given to understand that Mimi and Brian
18 were a fixture of the church, had been, always
19 will be and just drop it. There was some
20 discussion, we were meeting, I was on the
21 committee to talk about enlarging object -- our
22 population was growing. And the number of
23 children that we were teaching Sunday school to,
24 young families were coming in, so Father Rol
25 asked me to join the committee that he put
0107
1 together to consider what might be done, and one
2 question that always would come up was the old
3 roadhouse there on the corner that the church,
4 there is a property, a white kind of older house
5 that's on the church property the church owned,
6 and they would have AIDS patients in there
7 before.
8 When we started going there, it was
9 a nursery. That's where JonBenet would be in
10 the nursery in that little house. And Mimi and
11 Brian lived there, rent free, and he would pick
12 up the sexton, whatever you call it and she is
13 the church secretary. And he also has a
14 painting studio space in the basement of the
15 church, under the sanctuary.
16 So and they are just kind of, I was
17 given to understand, sort of wards of the
18 church, because I had questioned -- I said, you
19 know, that space where the little house is could
20 be a new Sunday school and offices and you know.
21 And it was really strange. I mean kind of like
22 mostly told don't go there, you know.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: What about the art
24 studio, did you also try to expand into the art
25 studio?
0108
1 PATSY RAMSEY: No, the art studio
2 was down under -- under the sanctuary. I never
3 even knew it was there. I went in to visit Pat,
4 the deacon, pat LaDiccio (phonetic), one day,
5 and her office is down there under the
6 sanctuary, I didn't know it had been there. She
7 said oh, come look and walked back to the end of
8 the hall and she knocked on the door and opened
9 the door and here is Brian in there and all his
10 art materials and supplies and things, it
11 smelled like pot. You know, I said woof, isn't
12 that interesting.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: So you never took
14 any, for example, painting lessons from --
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, no.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: And did he have
17 any contact with JonBenet or the other
18 children?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, he was
20 always around, you know, around the church
21 there. No --
22 TRIP DeMUTH: How about
23 JonBenet?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: You know, not
25 that I am aware of.
0109
1 TRIP DeMUTH: Any interaction
2 at all between him and JonBenet?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think she
4 even know knew who he was.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay, okay.
6 TOM HANEY: He had a sweetheart
7 deal with the church there?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
9 TOM HANEY: As a result of your
10 conversation, did that alter his status there at
11 all, or their agreement?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding).
13 TOM HANEY: Did he know that you
14 had made these comments or did you guys ever
15 have any words?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TOM HANEY: So nothing changed
18 before or after your conversation about it?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
20 TOM HANEY: That's fine.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Not to my knowledge;
22 I don't know.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: I had a question, was
24 he over at the -- you had a foyer group, dinner
25 party in early December, did you not?
0110
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: Was he there?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Good question. You
4 know, he just came over. Did you ever get a
5 list from -- I know we talked about that dinner
6 briefly (INAUDIBLE) and I said Carolyn Riley
7 (phonetic) is the kind of the lady in charge of
8 that. She had the guest list and I was just
9 providing the house. So she might know
10 specifically who was there.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: You don't remember
12 Brian Perry being there that night at all?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I -- I can't
14 remember who was there.
15 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you remember what
16 your children did during that party, during the
17 dinner, were they involved in that or were
18 they -- did you have any in the house, where
19 they being baby-sat somewhere else? Did they
20 eat dinner with the church group?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I think they were
22 around. I don't know if they came down and kind
23 of left me their bowls and went back to play. I
24 don't know. I didn't really -- it's been so
25 long, I can't really remember.
0111
1 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I do remember once
3 we didn't have enough food and I had to call
4 Treiling (phonetic) and order every piece of
5 chicken wing and roll they had. Could have been
6 you know -- everybody brought alcohol but not
7 food, you know, everybody was supposed to bring
8 something. There wasn't enough food.
9 TOM HANEY: I want to talk about
10 some of the kids from the neighborhood too.
11 This Luke, is it Vermiere?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Vermiere, yes.
13 Next door, yes.
14 TOM HANEY: What, what about him,
15 how much time did he spend at your place, who
16 did he play with?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: You know, I mean he
18 wasn't in our house really very much. He was
19 with Burke and certainly JonBenet, but he was a
20 very sweet child and would give JonBenet
21 attention. You know, even when she was real
22 little, he would stoop down and talk with her
23 and all that.
24 And she, she was -- I thought was a
25 child that could have a little crush, you know,
0112
1 she sort of liked him, because he was soft
2 spoken and gentle and you know. Pretty features
3 and you know, just a nice little boy. She would
4 get kind of flush she -- sort of around him or
5 something. And she called him Big Luke, because
6 we had another friend, Luke Fernie who we
7 referred to him as Little Luke. But he was not
8 ever really around a lot.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: You say he would give
10 JonBenet attention. Would he play with her?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Not really. I mean
12 I sort of kept an eyeball there. Because he was
13 a little bit older, you know. But he would just
14 be -- you know, there might be several kids down
15 on the patio, the back patio, he would be on a
16 bike or something and he would talk with her or
17 something.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: Did he ever spend any
19 amount of time in the house playing with Burke,
20 for example?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: A lot of the
22 neighborhood boys came over and would play video
23 games with Burke. The Colby (phonetic) boys,
24 Luke sometimes, but he was just a little bit
25 older, you know, so he really wasn't there too
0113
1 much. And Wes, one of the children of the
2 couple next door, Priscilla and Scott.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Gibbons?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Gibbons, yes.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: How old was Wes?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Wes was a couple of
7 years older than Burke.
8 TRIP DeMUTH: How often would he
9 come over?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: It would be kind of
11 sporadic, because they were kind of at their
12 mom's and here, it wasn't an everyday thing.
13 So -- and it was -- I know it wasn't a whole
14 lot, because we weren't there in the summertime
15 that much and this would mostly be, you know, in
16 the evenings after school. That didn't last too
17 long, because you had dinner and then get ready
18 for a bath and bed.
19 So they would all congregate at our
20 house because we had the swing and the porch and
21 sandbox and the videos and all that. The video,
22 you know, Nintendo and all that. But --
23 TRIP DeMUTH: When you say they
24 would congregate, would they come and go from
25 your house just sort of?
0114
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, Colby
2 (phonetic) boys would get in the refrigerator,
3 get a glass of milk and cookies.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: So was your house
5 kind of an open house for the local kids?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum, uh-hum.
7 TOM HANEY: And Luke had an older
8 brother Adam?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know that I
10 ever met Adam.
11 TOM HANEY: You didn't--
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
13 TOM HANEY: He never came over?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
15 TOM HANEY: Do you know what he
16 did, was he going to school?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I believe he was
18 going to school. I think that he had, was in a
19 back brace or something for a while. I think
20 his mother told me. You know, I would sometimes
21 see him come and go with Forest in a car or
22 something, but I can't remember (INAUDIBLE).
23 TOM HANEY: Did you ever see any
24 unusual activity on his part, parties while mom
25 and dad are gone or any disruptive--
0115
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
2 TOM HANEY: You mentioned the
3 Colbys, they are quite a bit older than your
4 kids, right?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, well, Evan was
6 nearly Burke's age, he was like a year older.
7 And Kai was two, three years older. But very
8 young acting, you know, still like roller
9 blading and Nintendo and that kind of thing.
10 TOM HANEY: And they spent a lot of
11 time?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
13 TOM HANEY: And how about the older
14 brother, was it Jordan?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Jordan was the
16 daughter.
17 TOM HANEY: Daughter?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, yeah.
19 TOM HANEY: Did she spend time
20 there or baby-sit or--
21 PATSY RAMSEY: She would come down
22 usually just to get Evan. Seemed like he
23 practically lived at our house, you know. She
24 would come down and get him. And dinner,
25 whatever, she was kind of just little watch dog,
0116
1 I guess. She would come after him, she never
2 really baby-sat or was at the house much.
3 She was kind of in her little
4 world. She had this outdoor swing and I mean
5 that kid was out there swinging on that swing
6 morning, noon and night. Priscilla and Fleet
7 had to have just a (INAUDIBLE) for a while or
8 something. That kid was out there 10:30 at
9 night swinging on that swing. You know, she --
10 just ice cold, doesn't matter what the weather
11 was.
12 TOM HANEY: Just swinging?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Swinging, swinging,
14 like one of the birch swings with the disk, you
15 know, and (INAUDIBLE).
16 TOM HANEY: Another neighbor, a
17 Debbie Shefley (phonetic), do you know, what can
18 you tell us about her? She lived down at 830
19 15th.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know if I
21 know her. Which way is that? That down or up?
22 TOM HANEY: Well, it's up but
23 north, just the next block?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: North, so that would
25 be down. North is down.
0117
1 TOM HANEY: Could be.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I think -- I think I
3 might -- she had kind of light hair and kind of
4 real full.
5 TOM HANEY: Kind of blondish?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: She was another
7 (INAUDIBLE) I think I might have met her but
8 never really -- you know.
9 TOM HANEY: Did you ever have any
10 problem with her?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (No audible
12 response).
13 TOM HANEY: Did she ever, say, show
14 any particular interest in John?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
16 TOM HANEY: There is a statement
17 attributed to you referring to her that called
18 her "the blond bitch down the street." Do you
19 recall a conversation involving her and those
20 words?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Who was I supposed
22 to say that to?
23 TOM HANEY: Well, you know, I don't
24 have that part written down, just that there was
25 this --
0118
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I think what you're
2 thinking of is -- what's the girl's name,
3 Debbie?
4 TOM HANEY: Debbie Shefley.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: There is a Dana
6 Berger.
7 TOM HANEY: Okay, maybe that's--
8 PATSY RAMSEY: She is blond, very
9 blond. And Priscilla referred to her as the
10 blond bitch. Because she said that Dana would
11 jog over by her house every day. From our area,
12 her area (INAUDIBLE) and Priscilla for a long
13 time when we first moved in had a lot of their
14 boxes and things stuffed in their living room
15 there. And I guess one day Dana made some
16 comment to Priscilla like, you know, aren't you
17 ever going to clean up this place or something
18 to that effect. And Priscilla was like, well,
19 what's it to you, you know, kind of thing.
20 And so she referred to kind of I
21 have heard her call her the blond bitch. But
22 Dana and I never, I mean I enjoyed her. I mean
23 we never really did a whole lot together. The
24 kids were a little bit together. But she was in
25 some profession, I think she was a psychologist
0119
1 or something like that. But she wasn't -- she
2 wasn't a free mom kind of. (INAUDIBLE).
3 That much, but I think the blond
4 bitch thing, I don't think I said that, I am
5 ashamed of me if I did, but I think I heard
6 Priscilla say that.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: A couple of questions
8 Tom. With Evan Colby, was there ever a time
9 when Burke and Evan were under the porch without
10 their clothes on something, like that?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding).
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Can you tell me about
13 that?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I think
15 Cynthia Savage, my housekeeper-nanny, told me
16 about that one time. They were, there isn't a
17 porch to be under, but I think Evan taught Burke
18 that it was easier to go pee-pee outside than to
19 take the time to go inside to go pee-pee, so he
20 sort of taught him how to go behind the tree.
21 Evan is a little guy.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: How little is little
23 Evan?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I want to say
25 Burke was probably six or seven, Evan was 7 or
0120
1 8, or something like that. And Suzanne told me
2 she came out and saw -- I think she said they
3 were kind of by where we kept this trash can,
4 sort on the left side of the garage and Evan had
5 his pants down showing Burke his -- works.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Would Burke also have
7 his pants down or not?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think
9 I heard that.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Did Millie
11 Stanton across the street from you, did
12 she have boys?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: She had a little
14 boy, Joey. He was younger. I think that he was
15 more Burke's age.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Did he come over to
17 play?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: He came over,
19 uh-hum.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: Did he have any
21 brothers?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No. They lived at
23 one time on one side of Joe and Betty and then
24 they moved away for a while, then they moved
25 back on to the other side of Joe and Betty. And
0121
1 we didn't really see each other too much when
2 they moved back because I think he was ill for a
3 while.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you have very
5 much interaction with Millie Stanton at all?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Who lived up the
8 street? Did Fleet and Priscilla used to live
9 two doors uphill from you?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, yeah.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: And they moved out
12 prior to December of '96?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, they had bought
14 a house over on Cleveland.
15 TRIP DeMUTH: And that was a rental
16 house, was it?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: The one up the
18 street from us was, yes.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Who was living in
20 that house the summer of '96, do you know?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, but
22 there were some children living there, because
23 they came to play. They came down to play a
24 couple of days before Christmas and one little
25 girl was kind of dark skinned and I think the
0122
1 other little girl was kind of a little heavier
2 set. Maybe Mary might have been one of the
3 little girl's names.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
5 TOM HANEY: Earlier this year, I
6 think it was Rocky Mountain News did a big kind
7 of feature article on you guys. Could you tell
8 me how that came about? You know who contacted
9 you or who they went through or and how you
10 managed to sit through that?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Is this when they
12 came up to Charlevoix and took our pictures?
13 TOM HANEY: Well, it was in -- it
14 was in the news, it was a big, I don't know
15 about Charlevoix, if that was it or not.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I think -- I
17 don't know, they just done one, one big several
18 pages, pictures and all that, yeah. I don't
19 know exactly how that started. I mean everybody
20 had been calling wanting, you know, news, you
21 know, la-de-da.
22 TOM HANEY: Sure.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I
24 think Lisa Rickman I think was the writer on
25 that.
0123
1 TOM HANEY: It could have been. I
2 didn't -- I didn't--
3 PATSY RAMSEY: And geez, I don't
4 remember. This was about this time last year I
5 think.
6 TOM HANEY: It could have been I--
7 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean she was up
8 here in the summer time taking pictures. So I
9 don't know how that happened. Just somebody
10 decided okay, that they thought that they were
11 going to do a straight-up story, you know.
12 Truthful, so many of the things that had come
13 out were just total bald-faced lies and
14 speculative and blah, blah, blah, so I don't
15 know whether Lisa Rickman talked to Rochelle
16 Numer (phonetic) who was kind of fielding press
17 calls in or something.
18 TOM HANEY: Was she kind of doing
19 publicist for you or something?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Sort of. You know,
21 you every day, every day, every day, every day
22 people calling, you know, these guys couldn't
23 handle all that, and didn't want to, you know,
24 and blah, blah, blah, so we hired this gal to
25 field some calls and I think she -- she must
0124
1 have been the one initially spoke with the
2 writer from the News.
3 I mean I am -- I think she
4 interviewed some of our friends from years back
5 and came out and took pictures.
6 TOM HANEY: And did you ever have
7 an opportunity to review the story or read it?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yeah.
9 TOM HANEY: Okay. And what did you
10 think?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I thought it
12 was well done.
13 TOM HANEY: No problem with that?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean it was
15 sometime (INAUDIBLE) I don't know it was my time
16 myself any problem.
17 TOM HANEY: Burke had his interview
18 or several days of it a couple of weeks ago, I
19 guess. How did Burke prepare for that, or did
20 you talk to or work with Burke, talk to him
21 about what was going to happen?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
23 TOM HANEY: Talk to him about
24 questions or anything?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
0125
1 TOM HANEY: What did you tell him
2 prior to?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, he had been
4 going to see his -- he has a therapist, a child
5 therapist, and I just, I wanted at make sure
6 that we take care of our mental health, all of
7 us, during this, because particularly for him,
8 you now when he's 40 to have repercussions of
9 all this. So he had been in therapy, and, then
10 we knew ahead, before Burke did, that it was
11 going to be okay to have the interviews with --
12 fellows were going to come to Atlanta, and it
13 was going to be kind of a kid friendly
14 environment and all that.
15 And I think Dr. Jaffe said to him,
16 in his most recent, you know, closest to the
17 time of the interview that those people were
18 going to come from Colorado and that they were
19 really knuckling down on the investigation and
20 wanted his cooperation again. That Dr. Jaffe
21 would be there. You know. It would be okay.
22 And so that's about the extent to
23 which I spoke with him about it. Well, he kept
24 wanting to know why we weren't going to
25 Charlevoix. You know, let's go, let's go, let's
0126
1 go. I said well, actually next week a couple of
2 folks are coming from Colorado and they want to
3 ask some questions about anything you might
4 remember, you know, that's all.
5 TOM HANEY: You guys up in
6 Charlevoix now for the summer?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, uh-hum.
8 TOM HANEY: Did you watch the
9 interview with Burke as it was going on?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No, uh-uh.
11 TOM HANEY: Did you watch the tape
12 since?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
14 TOM HANEY: Did you discuss
15 anything with him afterwards about what went on?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: I said how was your
17 day, Burke? He said fine. That's it. Anything
18 you want to say? Nope. You know and I think
19 the last day, I said well, you know, we couldn't
20 go, John and I could not attend. Took him
21 actually every morning. We took him down and
22 John did not go, but on Friday I was unable to
23 go. Because John had to go to a funeral, a very
24 close friend had died and by that time John or
25 Burke was comfortable with Dr. Schuler and
0127
1 Dr. Jaffe was there, and you know, and Jean was
2 picking him up and taking him.
3 So we all thought that it was okay
4 for Burke to go by himself out there. And so
5 after we all got back home in the afternoon, I
6 said we are all done, you know, I am really
7 proud of you for going through that. He said
8 yeah, that was the most boring thing I have ever
9 done in my life. So and I spoke with
10 Dr. Schuler about that, and he said I guess that
11 was the time that he wasn't too traumatized
12 over it.
13 TOM HANEY: Dr. Jaffe, is he from
14 Denver or Atlanta?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Atlanta.
16 TOM HANEY: I told you earlier we
17 were going to ask some pretty personal questions
18 and --
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Tom, before you get
20 to that, I am sorry to interrupt. Have you
21 spoken to anybody about any details about that
22 interview with Burke? Has anybody told you
23 anything about it?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I think I just heard
25 that it went well and --
0128
1 TRIP DeMUTH: So no discussion
2 about information that was talked about in the
3 interview itself?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't --
5 PATRICK BURKE: One second. If we
6 talked about it, then you don't answer that
7 question. It goes back to what you and I talked
8 about.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I think all I had
11 heard was that it was very successful. I can't
12 really remember talking about anything too
13 specific.
14 TOM HANEY: Prior to the diagnosis
15 of your ovarian cancer, what was your
16 relationship like with John?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Great.
18 TOM HANEY: Okay.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Good, happy, healthy
20 marital relationship.
21 TOM HANEY: Sexual situation?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Good. Two kids,
23 lots of practice.
24 TOM HANEY: How about following
25 your treatment, was there a change?
0129
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, for obvious
2 reasons, there was -- this was -- big change in
3 our, you know, sexual life, because I was
4 undergoing chemotherapy for nine months, and had
5 a complete hysterectomy, which took several
6 months to recover from. Just physiologically.
7 And but I felt like it was even though we may
8 not have had, you know, sexual intercourse per
9 se, there were very loving, touching -- you
10 know, he was -- he looked forward through that
11 whole thing. He was my saviour, we will get
12 through this, you know, five steps, chin up, you
13 know -- because I unfortunately saw a lot of
14 cases of women in treatment where husbands or
15 live-ins or that "see ya".
16 TOM HANEY: But your relationship
17 remained good?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding).
19 TOM HANEY: Would you say he is a
20 pretty caring touchy, feely, huggy?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
22 TOM HANEY: How about since
23 JonBenet's death?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, there for a
25 number of months, I mean it was, you know, we
0130
1 didn't have sexual relations because I mean, you
2 know, you have to be in a pretty good mood and
3 pretty kind of happy frame of mind to go into
4 all that, and I was pretty much in a fetal
5 position crying every day all day. And I
6 remember the first time that we did actually
7 make love, we were at the lake house and we both
8 started weeping, you know, just all kinds of
9 feelings, you know, very emotional time. So...
10 TOM HANEY: Since the death I am
11 sure you have been grieving a lot and how have
12 you found, you know, support and comfort? Is it
13 mainly through religion or family or--
14 PATSY RAMSEY: All of that. We
15 have wonderful friends. Our family is very
16 close. Almost too close, probably. You know, I
17 mean they are all -- you know, my parents, my
18 sisters, it's just like an open wound. You
19 know, to them. John's brother and (INAUDIBLE).
20 We were a very close family and she was the
21 apple of our eye, you know.
22 And it's just the family is just --
23 they pull together and they are there, because
24 there is a lot of tension over it too, and it's
25 just -- you know, goes on and on and nothing is
0131
1 resolving and people still look at us, and you
2 know, it's just lot of dynamics there. Very
3 hard. But we are all Christians and know that
4 JonBenet is in a better place, and we are going
5 to be there some day. (INAUDIBLE).
6 TOM HANEY: You mentioned that
7 maybe you're too close. Do you mean the fact
8 that now that you're in Atlanta, the physical
9 proximity to all of the relatives, maybe that's
10 too much or--
11 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't mean --
12 I mean it's just we are so close, we feel each
13 other's pain like it's our own, you know.
14 TOM HANEY: So you're not talking
15 physical, close like the distance, you're--
16 PATSY RAMSEY: I am talking about
17 Atlanta, we moved back to Atlanta to be with our
18 family, but I mean, my sisters could not be
19 hurting any worse if it had been their child. I
20 mean she was their child. I feel like my nieces
21 and nephews are like my children. I mean we are
22 just a close-knit family.
23 TOM HANEY: Had you always been
24 like this?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Always.
0132
1 TOM HANEY: Have you and John had
2 any periods of separation between the time of
3 JonBenet's death and now?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: You mean like
5 separation as in like to get a divorce
6 separating?
7 TOM HANEY: Well, that is one
8 context. If you want to address that first?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: No, no.
10 TOM HANEY: Okay. I suppose he's
11 been away on business trips for extended periods
12 of time?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Not too extended. I
14 mean he really has been curtailing that. And if
15 and when he is away, I still can't stay by
16 myself so my sister will stay with me or we will
17 stay at my mother's or my girlfriends', I can't
18 stay by myself.
19 We have a security system, we have
20 a dog, we have gates, we have fences. It's just
21 when somebody has invaded your home in the
22 middle of the night and killed your child, you
23 have a hard time going to bed at night.
24 TOM HANEY: You mentioned earlier
25 about getting counseling for Burke. How about
0133
1 counseling for you and John?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yeah, yeah.
3 TOM HANEY: You still going or--
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
5 TOM HANEY: Both of you?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Not as frequently
7 now. I mean when I first started going, when I
8 came back to Colorado after burying JonBenet, I
9 mean I never had any experience with
10 psychotherapy, because I never really needed it,
11 even when I had cancer, I didn't feel like I
12 needed it, because I had support of my husband,
13 my family and my faith and you know, God healed
14 me and I could get bigger. But this was just,
15 you know, way beyond anything.
16 And I realized, I mean it was after
17 several weeks of just being in that fetal
18 position, crying, and just not wanting to live
19 basically, and you think, I can't go on like
20 this. I need help. And I wasn't real sure what
21 was out there, because I never had any
22 experience to know what was out there.
23 So actually, Barbara Fernie picked
24 me up one day from where we were staying and I
25 started having a panic attack, hyperventilating
0134
1 and all that stuff, and she was taking me to the
2 doctor at that time, I had a bronchial
3 infection, by the time I got to the doctor's
4 office I was in a full-blown panic attack, this
5 was in January or so.
6 TOM HANEY: In '97?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum. So the
8 physician in Boulder made a call to Rebecca
9 Barnes -- Barnhill -- Barnhill, Burkhardt,
10 Barnhill, Burkhardt.
11 VOICE: You still don't have it
12 right.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Barkhorn, Rebecca
14 Barkhorn, there are so many Burkes and Barkes in
15 my life, Barkhorn, and I saw her that day. And
16 she put me on Paxil, an antidepressant, and
17 Ativan, anxiety kind of attack, and she
18 explained to me basically what was happening.
19 That I had been through this traumatic thing, it
20 was perfectly normal, and yes, this can be
21 managed by medication. So I saw her quite
22 regularly. Like every day for many days.
23 TOM HANEY: These panic attacks
24 that you mentioned, was that the first time that
25 you had suffered through one of those or had you
0135
1 had those prior?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I had had one one
3 other time, when I was in Boulder Community
4 Hospital in the cancer clinic. And it was about
5 midway through my chemo session, my nine-month
6 session, and I guess all of sudden it just kind
7 of came crashing in as to what was really
8 happening. And I started trembling and shaking.
9 The numbness in my lips.
10 TOM HANEY: Those were your normal
11 symptoms?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. It was gone
13 in a little bit, you know.
14 TOM HANEY: Outside of those two
15 episodes, have you had others?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
17 TOM HANEY: What do you guys do for
18 fun now? How do you and John try to put this
19 behind you, try to forget, try to--
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I don't know
21 that you can forget. I mean every moving I open
22 my eyes and it's right there. You know, a lot
23 of time when I am dreaming and thinking, I am
24 trying to figure out who did it, I am chasing
25 somebody down the corridor.
0136
1 But you know, Burke's in school,
2 and -- and we have the most homework and his
3 activities, he's on the baseball team in the
4 spring and I was the team mother. And you know,
5 went to all his games. And we made some new
6 friends, we have certainly a lot of old friends
7 that we have known for years but we have
8 particularly found a couple who has an only son,
9 our two boys have hit it off, and the mom and I
10 and the two dads enjoy each other, so we go to
11 dinner with them probably once a week.
12 Just you know, my knew little niece
13 was born in September. I helped Polly with her
14 care quite a bit. Day-to-day, you know, there
15 is no -- there is no game plan.
16 TOM HANEY: Okay. You haven't
17 taken up a new hobby or something to kind of
18 occupy you or, you know, have you guys traveled
19 much or--
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Not -- well, we have
21 been to Spain a couple of times recently, that
22 had to do with the business John's trying to
23 pull together, you know. Business thing.
24 (INAUDIBLE). So those people are based in
25 Madrid so we went over there a couple of times.
0137
1 TOM HANEY: So those trips are
2 mainly business though?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
4 TOM HANEY: How about anything
5 else, just focusing mainly about Burke and his
6 things?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum, uh-hum. I
8 went to a bible study recently. (INAUDIBLE).
9 And John's been doing kind of a personal -- a
10 good friend of his, business colleague that he's
11 known for years, he and John meet every couple
12 of weeks for lunch and you know, the talk and
13 about kids and you know (INAUDIBLE) talks to
14 John.
15 TOM HANEY: A minute ago there was
16 some, a little discussion with you and Mr. Burke
17 about previous discussions, and not to violate
18 that confidence, but what have you done to
19 prepare for this interview today, what have you
20 reviewed or looked at or talked to?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the main thing
22 I have done is prayed for this day for a year
23 and a half. I don't know what started off on
24 the wrong foot somewhere, but I have prayed and
25 prayed and meditated and prayed some more that
0138
1 we could be here working hand in hand to get to
2 the bottom of this. So that's probably the
3 biggest thing I have done to prepare.
4 We met with our attorney, and --
5 PATRICK BURKE: Here's what Tom
6 meant by that. He's not going to ask you what
7 we talked about, those sorts of things, and he's
8 just being respectful of what is called the
9 attorney-client privilege. So that was if you
10 didn't get that, that's what the preface to the
11 question was all about?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean we just --
13 oh, we looked at, I think he gave me the
14 document of my previous interview.
15 TOM HANEY: From last April 30?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it was. I
17 thumbed through that. There wasn't much to it.
18 You know, (INAUDIBLE).
19 TOM HANEY: Well, we want to make
20 sure that when you leave here, when we are
21 finished, whenever that might be, but we don't
22 want you to leave with that feeling that there
23 is something as we go along that you want to
24 throw out or jump in or and I am sure you have
25 got a list maybe for at the end but we will give
0139
1 you plenty of opportunities, but we want this to
2 be as all-inclusive, comprehensive, so that when
3 you leave here it's all been answered.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
5 TOM HANEY: Okay?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe it won't be
7 answered, maybe something else will come up, but
8 I want to feel that we can have an ongoing
9 dialogue here. If something comes, say oh, God
10 I need to know something, you know, I mean I
11 don't -- I don't want -- you know, is it okay to
12 talk, I don't know, are we going to go for a
13 week and figure out if it's okay to ask the
14 question and you know, you have to -- it's been
15 going on too long. So I want to -- I mean if
16 you want my out here for a month, I will stay,
17 two months, whatever. It's been a night. We go
18 to bed. You know just we got to work together
19 here.
20 TOM HANEY: And we appreciate that
21 and your comments. Back to -- I have got noon.
22 I don't know what the plan is, but this might be
23 a reasonable spot to stop. Have a snack. I
24 have got almost noon straight up.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: How about at 2
0140
1 o'clock?
2 VOICE: We will be here at 2.
3 (A lunch recess was taken.)
4
5 (END OF TAPE NO. 1.)
6
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0141
1 _______________________________________________
2
3 IN THE MATTER OF:
4
5
6 INTERVIEW WITH PATSY RAMSEY
7
8 _______________________________________________
9
10
11 TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW
12
13 VOLUME 2 of 4
14 PAGES 141 - 326
15
16
17
18
19 JUNE 23 (Continued) & JUNE 24, 1998
20
21
22
23
24
25
0142
1 FOR PATSY RAMSEY'S INTERVIEW,
2 THE FOLLOWING WERE PRESENT:
3
4
5 THOMAS HANEY
6 TRIP DeMUTH
7 PATRICK BURKE
8 ELLIS ARMISTEAD
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
0143
1 THOMAS HANEY: I have about 2:51
2 and we are back on tape.
3 We have been talking about college
4 and your activities there. How about after
5 that, how did you meet John?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I met him through
7 some friends that moved to Atlanta.
8 THOMAS HANEY: And what did you
9 guys do?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: We dated. Dinner,
11 dated for -- let's see, we met in August, we
12 were engaged in June, and we were married the
13 next November.
14 THOMAS HANEY: When he proposed,
15 were you ready for this?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Yep.
17 THOMAS HANEY: Now, this was his
18 second marriage; does that bother you at all
19 now?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
21 THOMAS HANEY: John I am sure was
22 not -- in fact earlier you mentioned some
23 college boyfriend that may have smoked marijuana
24 occasionally, so John wasn't your first serious
25 relationship?
0144
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, I think I would
2 say he was the first serious one, yes.
3 THOMAS HANEY: But I would imagine
4 you had a few beaus over the years?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding.) (No
6 response.)
7 THOMAS HANEY: Have you, since you
8 have been married, heard from any of them?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Let's see.
10 THOMAS HANEY: Have you, since you
11 have been married, heard from any of them?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, let's see. Lots
13 of friends at reunions, and school class
14 reunions, and things.
15 THOMAS HANEY: How about any
16 relationship that you broke off or maybe they
17 broke off that, and maybe it wasn't an angry,
18 nasty thing, but maybe they weren't ready for
19 that; did you have any of those?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, probably.
21 THOMAS HANEY: And what I am
22 getting at, obviously, is if there is some guy
23 out there who feels that, you know, some anger
24 towards you as a result of that?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't think
0145
1 so.
2 THOMAS HANEY: Have you ever gotten
3 any phone calls, letters, visits in Boulder from
4 anybody like that?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
6 THOMAS HANEY: Nothing? No contact
7 like that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
9 THOMAS HANEY: What special things
10 would John do, say, with Burke, I guess they
11 were both in the plan. What do they do
12 together?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: They build models
14 and trains and cars. And Boy Scouts. Homework.
15 Yard, and they built a tree house, John built a
16 tree house for Burke. And -- climbing, you
17 know, trail hiking in the (INAUDIBLE).
18 THOMAS HANEY: How about John with
19 JonBenet, did they do any special things
20 together? Is there anything that she liked dad
21 to take her to do?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she loved her
23 dad to be around all the time. You know, she
24 liked John to carry her up on his shoulders.
25 And they liked to bike-ride. And he went to the
0146
1 pageants. She was always real proud that he was
2 in hardware as she called it, her -- trophy
3 winnings, medals, whatnot.
4 THOMAS HANEY: So he managed to get
5 to quite a few of those or most orall?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
7 THOMAS HANEY: Because from what
8 little I understand, it's kind of off-limits for
9 guys, but not -- not a lot of guys there?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: There are a lot of
11 fathers there, brothers.
12 THOMAS HANEY: Really?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, brothers,
14 sisters.
15 THOMAS HANEY: You and John, what
16 did you guys disagree about? And this is before
17 December 25, '96?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, gosh. You know,
19 we really don't disagree much.
20 THOMAS HANEY: Never had a fight?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I can
22 remember.
23 THOMAS HANEY: You never got on him
24 about you're a workaholic, you're out all the
25 time, you travel all the time, spend more time
0147
1 here?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean he was
3 commuting from Atlanta to Colorado for the first
4 couple of years of this company that was
5 building, and then when he became president of
6 the company, you know, we moved here. Even
7 though he would be traveling a lot or whatever,
8 the children would see -- you know, we all see
9 each other in the morning and the evenings
10 and -- you know.
11 VOICE OFF VIDEOTAPE: Motorcycles?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, no.
13 VOICE: So you disagree on that?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, but that's in
15 recent times.
16 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, but no
17 knock-down, drag-outs over it?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
19 THOMAS HANEY: And you said that
20 John did approve of the pageants since he
21 attended them?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
23 THOMAS HANEY: Tell me about John.
24 On a good day.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Like what?
0148
1 THOMAS HANEY: Well, that's about
2 as open-ended as you can get. What kind of a
3 guy is he?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: He is -- a great
5 father, and great husband. You know, hard
6 worker. Disciplined. Runs a big business, he
7 is an entrepreneur, entrepreneurial spirit. You
8 know, makes friends. What else --
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Tom, could I ask a
10 question here.
11 After the memorial service, I think
12 you're being walked out with Barbara Fernie, I
13 think it's Barbara Fernie that's walking you out
14 on television, and you had mentioned how Roxie
15 Walker had sort of helped you to the airplane
16 and all that type of stuff. Where was John
17 during these -- can you talk about that?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, I think you
19 might be confusing the memorial service with
20 that picture of Barbara and I that was the --
21 played and played and played and then the bishop
22 or whatever was back in. That was not the
23 memorial service.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: That was just a
0149
1 church service a couple of weeks after we came
2 back to Boulder.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Okay. Maybe I
4 was confusing that. Anyway it struck me that
5 John was not the one next to you, it was Barbara
6 and then you had mentioned (INAUDIBLE) -- can
7 you talk about at all?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I remember Barbara,
9 I mean John and I were kind of walking together
10 and Barbara came on and kind of scooped me
11 forward, you know. And then just kind of, I
12 think she was trying to hurry me through this
13 entourage of people that were there. Not that
14 there wasn't anything planned or anything.
15 I think John fell in with Father
16 Rol or something like that. And Roxie had, you
17 know, we had been to the Fernies, and that's
18 when everybody had taken care of me, Patty Novak
19 (phonetic) and Roxie and, you know, they dressed
20 me for the funeral, and everything. And I mean
21 I was seated with John and Burke at the funeral.
22 And you know, I think we walked in
23 and we walked out together. I just remember
24 Roxie kind of taking me by the arm or something
25 and "We're going to the plane now." And she was
0150
1 just kind of -- kind of just watching.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: What was John doing
3 while these other women were taking care of you?
4 What was John doing? Or do you know?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: I was -- I don't
8 know.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
10 THOMAS HANEY: So that's John on a
11 good day. Everything wonderful. How about John
12 on a bad day? Bad day at the office.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Bad day at the
14 office?
15 THOMAS HANEY: And I know he's had
16 those.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yeah.
18 THOMAS HANEY: Okay.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, he really pretty
20 much leaves it at the office. Because I will --
21 usually when we sit down and have dinner, with
22 the children, you know, I really like to do that
23 every night, whether it was at home or a
24 restaurant or whatever. But that we were all
25 together for dinner at night and, you know, what
0151
1 did you do today, what did you do today?
2 And -- and the kids will ramble on
3 what about they did. I went to the furniture
4 store and the dry cleaners, you know, those fun
5 things. And John just, you know, would say he
6 worked and I mean he never elaborated on
7 anything much about what happened.
8 THOMAS HANEY: Even if there was a
9 problem?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Not too much.
11 THOMAS HANEY: Really?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: No. He pretty much
13 kept that at the office.
14 THOMAS HANEY: Because I would
15 imagine that starting up the company and going
16 through all that, it's got to be a bit of a
17 strain?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, uh-hum.
19 THOMAS HANEY: And I know some days
20 I am able to leave it at the office and some
21 days not.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum. I don't
23 know how much time you spent with John. He's
24 pretty quiet, and pretty -- you know,
25 self-disciplined, and, you know, when he's home
0152
1 he doesn't like to take phone calls because he's
2 on the phone all the time at the office. So
3 many times if the phone rings, they ask for him,
4 I would say, you know, he's not here, can I take
5 a message. If it's somebody trying to sell
6 something, you know, forget, or, well, you know,
7 this is Jeff, or, you know, then I will say
8 okay. But at home he wants to be away from
9 that.
10 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. How about
11 you. How about you on a good day?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Now?
13 THOMAS HANEY: Yeah.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, I get up, get
15 Burke ready for school. Go meet my girl friends
16 for coffee. Come back, clean up the house a
17 little bit. Probably run errands or go to my
18 sister's and tell her (INAUDIBLE). And then we
19 have lunch with a friend and pick up Burke after
20 school and get homework and dinner and that's
21 it.
22 THOMAS HANEY: Pretty routine
23 stuff?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding.)
25 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, how about you
0153
1 on a bad day.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Well --
3 THOMAS HANEY: Things don't go
4 right, Burke's had a bad day, Mom, whatever, so
5 you're upset?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the thing that
7 makes me have a bad day these days is just, you
8 know, if I am really unable to control my
9 emotional distraught during the day. You know,
10 and I have those days, I would be in bed most of
11 the day. So, you know, I will cry, whatever.
12 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, how about what
13 sets you off on a bad day?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Not too much really.
15 I mean, I am pretty laid back. Maybe
16 (INAUDIBLE) got under my skin when he was
17 watching me. I don't like people hurting other
18 people for their own self-interests.
19 (INAUDIBLE.) That bothers me.
20 You know, I mean, prior to this, I
21 hadn't run into it at all. But since then I
22 have run into a lot of evil people. It's just
23 hurtful, you know. I, about three weeks ago, I
24 was going through a shopping line at the market,
25 and one of the tabloids had Burke's picture on
0154
1 it.
2 THOMAS HANEY: That recent?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum. And I
4 called the manager, very politely, and I said --
5 told him who I was, and I said -- and I said I
6 am Burke's mother and my friends, Burke's
7 friends shop in the grocery story and his
8 picture is on that magazine, and I would greatly
9 appreciate if you remove it. No problem. He
10 said I am very sorry, he said he'd take care of
11 that. So that (INAUDIBLE).
12 THOMAS HANEY: But you had --
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I had gone too many
14 times in the market in Charlevoix. They said no
15 problem. I said we are here for the summer now,
16 our friends are here, my children are, you know,
17 coming in and out of the market. I really would
18 appreciate it if you would not, you know -- and
19 my (INAUDIBLE) -- in various establishments.
20 THOMAS HANEY: So you handled that
21 pretty well?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
23 THOMAS HANEY: How about, and I am
24 sure that since JonBenet's death, that there has
25 been a lot more pressure, you know, the pressure
0155
1 of the investigation, the media, whether to have
2 an interview, what it's going to be, where, if
3 there is. Does this kind of rattle on you too,
4 this whole --
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
6 THOMAS HANEY: -- nonsense?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Of course.
8 THOMAS HANEY: And how do you cope
9 with that?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I try not to let
11 myself get too tired because then I fall to
12 pieces, would cry a lot, and get all depressed.
13 I really try to manage my -- my health, sort of,
14 you know. I try to get a lot of rest and eat
15 well, and don't -- we have taken our TV out, we
16 don't get a newspaper. And just not -- you just
17 can't see it, because the few times that I
18 inadvertently have seen something, one time
19 there was a thing on TV and I can't remember,
20 but I sat down and, boom, there was that Cyril
21 Wecht or whatever his name is, is on, I don't
22 know what the title is, but he was -- he was
23 saying, you know, call the police, or take them
24 and da, da, da. And -- and I saw somebody held
25 up an applause sign or what because people in
0156
1 the audience were going yeah, yeah, yeah.
2 And it was just like oh, my God, I
3 can't believe. It was just like they are
4 talking about me. I mean I was in bed for two
5 days, literally in bed. And John took the TV
6 out. He just cut off the tape. You just
7 can't -- it's horrible. It's like you're
8 watching a movie of somebody else's life. You
9 know.
10 THOMAS HANEY: What did this Cyril
11 Wecht say that the Boulder police should do?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't remember.
13 But he was just, you know, come on, come on, you
14 know, riling them up like this. It was like, I
15 mean, all you could think of was like, it was
16 like (INAUDIBLE) crucify 'em, crucify them.
17 That's what it seemed to me like, got the crowd
18 all frenzied, you know.
19 I am looking at these people with
20 this hatred in their eyes and going, you know,
21 what -- you know, what is this about, why are
22 you doing this? You know. And it just -- you
23 just can't, you can't let yourself go there. Do
24 yourself in.
25 THOMAS HANEY: What changes have
0157
1 you seen in yourself since the death, outside of
2 taking away the TV and the newspaper?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: I think the biggest
4 change that I have had personally, um, when I
5 had cancer, I was afraid to die because I had
6 two children and a husband and I didn't want to
7 leave them. And now, I am not afraid, because
8 JonBenet had to go there. If I get cancer
9 again, and you know, I can see her on that side.
10 And then God willing, if I stay healthy, I have
11 my son to enjoy here. And (INAUDIBLE).
12 So I am not -- I am just not afraid
13 anymore.
14 THOMAS HANEY: How about changes in
15 John since this happened?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: I think we both
17 regret not being as security conscious as we
18 should have. I think when you live in a major
19 metropolitan place like Atlanta we always used
20 to have an alarm, we always locked our doors.
21 We moved to Boulder and it just seemed so safe
22 and small town, you know, next door kids, and I
23 think we just let down our guard.
24 And I think we will forever be
25 regretting that, you know, I mean we have since
0158
1 gotten a dog. I am not real crazy about dogs.
2 Dogs have (INAUDIBLE) and burglars don't like
3 noise. We have lights that come on, motion
4 lights. We have cameras. We have a security
5 alarm, of course, that we use. I know exactly
6 who has every key, you know, and we just -- you
7 know, were too lax.
8 THOMAS HANEY: The alarm that you
9 had at the Boulder house here, when was the last
10 time that you had used it?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: When JonBenet was
12 probably about two years old, we were still
13 doing a lot of construction, and I mean there
14 were people in and out of that house all the
15 time, fixing things and I didn't know what they
16 were working on. I knew they were working on
17 the alarm system. But I didn't really think
18 that it worked yet. Because we had had a lot of
19 doors and windows taken out and put back in, so
20 I thought it was kind of in the works.
21 Well, one evening, John and I just
22 sat down with a glass of wine and, you know,
23 boom, boom, boom, you know, all things. And we
24 went running back to the key pad, which was back
25 there by the garage door, and JonBenet had
0159
1 pulled her little chair over next to the door
2 and I think she was trying to reach the garage
3 door button, garage door open button, which was
4 just above it. And she pushed you know, two,
5 three, four buttons on that alarm key pad, and
6 it all -- everything broke loose. I mean it was
7 deafening. And here came the squad cars and the
8 ambulance and the fire truck, you know, the
9 whole thing. Whole nine yards.
10 And -- and so we never really used
11 it. They were asking me what's your code. I
12 said I didn't know I had a code because I didn't
13 know the thing was working yet.
14 THOMAS HANEY: So you never --
15 PATSY RAMSEY: We never had used
16 it. But we had it, it was in the house when we
17 bought it and we -- we did whatever you do to
18 activate the fire alarm, you know, tied into
19 that. Smoke detectors and all. If it went off,
20 it can call the fire people like that, but we
21 never, you know, set it. Because it was always
22 going, it seemed like it went off erratically,
23 more than it was worth. You know. And like I
24 said, we kind of had been lulled into the, you
25 know, complacent feeling of security. So --
0160
1 THOMAS HANEY: You say you got a
2 dog. You had a dog up here, right?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: We have a dog in
4 Boulder that we bought.
5 THOMAS HANEY: And what -- what
6 happened, I guess the dog was somewhere else?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: He -- he had to have
8 a Bichons Frise.
9 THOMAS HANEY: I am sorry?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: A little Bichons
11 thing, white-haired, puffy, fluffy dog. Not a
12 hound dog. It's a little -- I mean, JonBenet --
13 we went to the puppy shop one day and she said,
14 "Oh, that one." And, you know, they put this
15 little white fluffy thing in her arms and, you
16 know, I said wrap it up. Yes, we will take one
17 of everything that goes with it. I mean, it's
18 just putty. It was a darling little dog.
19 He had had him running across the
20 street to the Barnhills, that was the couple
21 that lived across the street. And they had had
22 a couple of small dogs that they had to put to
23 sleep, so they became very found of Jacques. So
24 when we would go out of town for any length of
25 time, they would dog-sit for us. And we were
0161
1 getting ready to leave early, early the next
2 morning, so Jacques went over to Joe's. God, I
3 wish he had --
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Went to Joe's?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: He was over there.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Where was he usually?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: He was usually at
8 our house. I mean it was 50-50, you know. He
9 just --
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Now explain that
11 50-50 to me. I mean is that kind of -- would he
12 stay overnight at Barnhills or was it just 50
13 percent of the day?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Some nights he
15 would spend the night over there. And, you
16 know, if I was going to be gone all day, maybe
17 two -- rather than leave him in the house alone,
18 they liked to have him over there and they
19 played with him all the time. So I would say
20 Betty Ann, I am going to Denver, I won't be back
21 until 5 o'clock or something, do you want
22 Jacques? Oh, yes. And then the kids usually
23 went over and get him and (INAUDIBLE). So it
24 was kind of --
25 TRIP DeMUTH: 50 percent of the
0162
1 time he was not spending the night in your
2 house?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. Maybe not
4 quite 50 percent, maybe 40 percent.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: And would he bark
6 when strangers came around?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: He didn't bark a
8 lot, but he would, yeah. Uh-hum. He could
9 bark, yeah. I think, I think when -- you know,
10 he just was so good with the kids and the kids
11 were romping all over, you know, playing with
12 him, I think when he sensed danger, probably
13 would have.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: Where did he stay
15 when he was in the house at night?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: He used JonBenet's
17 room or we were having trouble training him,
18 potty training him, so I had to let -- had
19 somebody teach me to have him next to my bed
20 like on a leash, because they wouldn't soil the
21 area where they sleep. So I started doing that,
22 and I had to take him down in the morning, let
23 him out. He pretty much had the run of the
24 house.
25 THOMAS HANEY: How about other dogs
0163
1 in this neighborhood, were there a lot of I mean
2 real dogs?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) dogs.
4 The Cobys (phonetic) had a dog, a German
5 shepherd.
6 THOMAS HANEY: Do you ever remember
7 being awakened or bothered by the dogs in the
8 neighborhood barking?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
10 THOMAS HANEY: Just a couple of
11 minutes ago we were talking about like you
12 leaving the church and that. There has been a
13 lot of information, I guess, that on the day of
14 the 26th, before the police were there, you're
15 in the solarium, John's in the study, that you
16 guys never got together. That he wasn't near
17 you.
18 And a few minutes ago you also
19 talked that he's a touchy, huggy, close. These
20 two just seem to be in complete contrast to one
21 another. Some of the perception that is out
22 there that you didn't -- or that he wasn't
23 there, or wasn't supportive, at least that day
24 or maybe coming out of the church, maybe the
25 days following.
0164
1 PATSY RAMSEY: He is a complete
2 support. We were completely -- I mean, he was
3 back there doing his business with Linda Arndt
4 and they were setting up the telephone taps.
5 She was schooling him as to what he was supposed
6 to say when this call came in, supposed to say
7 "we will call you in the morning" or something
8 like. They were getting all that set up.
9 I was in there with -- those two
10 women were there and Barbara and Priscilla and
11 whomever else, and he would come in -- I mean I
12 was just sitting there, you know, praying and I
13 kept -- Linda Arndt said -- she said that many
14 times they would -- something like if something
15 happened, the kidnappers would get scared and
16 pretty likely drop her off someplace, you know,
17 just drop her out of the car in the grocery
18 store or something like that.
19 So I was just in there, I just
20 thought at any moment I would see her coming
21 running down the street, you know. And John
22 would come in and he would say, you know, don't
23 worry, we will get her back, it will be okay, it
24 will be okay, they have got it under control.
25 You know, I mean, he came to me several times
0165
1 and reassured me that, you know, they are doing
2 everything. You know, I didn't feel like he was
3 away or something.
4 THOMAS HANEY: And we are talking
5 5:52 a.m. until, say, 1 o'clock in the
6 afternoon, and Detective Arndt spent 10, 20, 30
7 minutes maybe going over that. But again, there
8 seems to be this distance between you two.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know who is
10 saying seeming this or seeming that. Now he, as
11 far as I was concerned, there was no distance,
12 you know.
13 THOMAS HANEY: If that's --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: We were both wracked
15 out of our minds because our child was missing,
16 you know. I am sitting there in deep prayer,
17 trying to look at all these people walking
18 around the house, going "am I dreaming this? Is
19 this really happening," you know. And he is
20 trying his best to figure out -- I mean he was
21 trying to get the ransom money, I understand.
22 He was, you know. I don't know what he was --
23 he was --
24 I don't know who is perceiving that
25 there was problems with us, but there was no
0166
1 problem, there has been no problem and continues
2 to be no problem.
3 THOMAS HANEY: Before we totally
4 get away from that, since that day have you
5 given any thought, even for a minute, considered
6 that John may have been involved in some way in
7 JonBenet's death?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Absolutely no.
9 THOMAS HANEY: Not a second?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Not a moment.
11 THOMAS HANEY: The thought never
12 crossed your mind?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Never crossed my
14 mind.
15 THOMAS HANEY: Why?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: That man loved his
17 children. Period, end of statement. I have
18 observed him before I had children, with his
19 three children who were not my children, and he
20 divorced their mother, but not those children.
21 Wherever we were in the world, that man called
22 his children. He was there for (INAUDIBLE), you
23 know -- I mean she never had to go back to court
24 to ask for more money. She asked John and he
25 sent it, he was there. I mean, there are very
0167
1 few fathers like that man.
2 THOMAS HANEY: And I am not saying
3 that he thought about this, planned or conspired
4 or something for months to carry this out. I am
5 saying did you ever for a second think --
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Not a second.
7 THOMAS HANEY: -- maybe there was
8 an accident?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: No, never.
10 THOMAS HANEY: Could there have
11 been an accident?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)
13 THOMAS HANEY: Could John have
14 accidentally bumped, pushed, struck JonBenet?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: No. No. Not as far
16 as I know.
17 THOMAS HANEY: Not within the realm
18 of possibility?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Not even in the
20 worst (INAUDIBLE).
21 THOMAS HANEY: Each of the children
22 had their own room and then you had what, two
23 guest rooms or extra rooms?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
25 THOMAS HANEY: It's my
0168
1 understanding that other people have slept in
2 JonBenet's room, that maybe John Andrew had
3 people over, and I think in the previous
4 interview that was mentioned and there was going
5 to at least be some attempt -- I don't believe
6 there has been any follow-up as far as a list of
7 all those people.
8 Do you know, have you talked to
9 John Andrew about that or have you had anybody
10 make any inquiry along those lines about who --
11 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
12 THOMAS HANEY: What time when --
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Not to my knowledge.
14 THOMAS HANEY: Because I guess --
15 and at least one of the names is Red Millard
16 (phonetic), I don't know if you know him. That
17 he supposedly had stayed there. You were asked
18 a lot of these questions previously, but in
19 summary, I am going to go back to see if you
20 remember at all.
21 You were asked previously what you
22 had had for lunch on Christmas Day. At the time
23 you didn't recall.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. It's
25 a year and a half later, I don't remember that.
0169
1 THOMAS HANEY: Have you given any
2 thought to it?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
4 THOMAS HANEY: How about JonBenet
5 on Christmas Day. Start off with pancakes in
6 the morning?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE
8 RESPONSE.)
9 THOMAS HANEY: And then (INAUDIBLE)
10 for lunch?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (No response.)
12 PATRICK BURKE: Take a little time
13 and think about this, if you can.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: You know, why didn't
15 somebody ask me that then?
16 VOICE: We understand that, we
17 understand that.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I
19 just, I don't know. I really -- a mother should
20 know what a kid has to eat every day, but I
21 can't remember, I just can't.
22 THOMAS HANEY: How about after at
23 the Whites, now did she put on a big spread
24 or --
25 PATSY RAMSEY: All I can remember,
0170
1 she had seafood, she had cracked crab that they
2 always do with their family. And the children
3 were going to eat at their own table and she had
4 several tables set up for the adults, and I
5 remember her saying that she specifically held
6 some out for JonBenet so JonBenet would get some
7 of this crab. I don't think --
8 THOMAS HANEY: Two?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, my children
10 both like seafood and she wanted to make sure
11 that -- my presumption was she didn't want us
12 all to eat and the kids not get any. But why
13 she said specifically JonBenet, and not Fleet
14 and Burke, I don't know. It's not one of the
15 things you remember and go you, you know. I
16 mean like don't think about it at the time.
17 THOMAS HANEY: And it could be an
18 innocent --
19 PATSY RAMSEY: And it could be
20 perfectly innocent, you know. And other than
21 that, I don't know what the child ate. There
22 were many people there, you know, I really don't
23 know.
24 THOMAS HANEY: And was there like a
25 separate menu then, items for the kids, they
0171
1 didn't have like less --
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Like hamburgers here
3 and lobster there? I don't know.
4 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, kids --
5 PATSY RAMSEY: I really can't
6 remember.
7 THOMAS HANEY: Crab, we have got
8 that.
9 You said the Whites previously
10 rented or lived in the house right by you,
11 right? Who was living in that house at that
12 time, did you know those people?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: You mean who they
14 had rented from?
15 THOMAS HANEY: Who was living in
16 that house on Christmas '96?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, gee, I don't
18 know. I don't know -- I don't know. Somebody
19 was, and they had children and the children
20 came.
21 THOMAS HANEY: Okay.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: And these, the one
23 little girl had a kind of darker complexion and
24 the other little girl was a little heavier set.
25 I think one of them's name was Mary, but that's
0172
1 the first time we really met them.
2 THOMAS HANEY: But they were over
3 sometime on Christmas --
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
5 THOMAS HANEY: -- to play.
6 Who else did JonBenet play with on
7 Christmas in the daytime, just kind of
8 separating time frames here?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she and Burke
10 played, Burke played with the Coby kids and
11 these little girls. And then of course we went
12 to the Whites and she and Daphne played with
13 Burke.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay, but before you
15 went to the Whites.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Went to the Whites?
17 Well, it would have been, you know, mostly --
18 TRIP DeMUTH: The Coby kids?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: -- the Coby kids.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: Which ones?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Kai and Evan.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: And these two little
23 girls from up the street?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: That were in the
25 house that Fleet and Priscilla used to live.
0173
1 TRIP DeMUTH: So that's -- what
2 about Luke Vermiere, or Luke from across the
3 street?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Big Luke? No.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: He didn't come over
6 that day.
7 Can you remember any other kids
8 that day, Christmas Day, before you go to the
9 Whites?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: I imagine they are
12 playing with their toys and showing each other
13 what they got?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. Most of the
15 little kids around were Burke's friends.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: So pretty much that's
17 who you remember?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: And who did JonBenet
20 play with of those kids?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: With -- well, they
22 were all kind of playing together. You know,
23 they were outside. Then they would all come in
24 and she was making little jewelry things and I
25 sat and played with her doing the jewelry
0174
1 things. And she was in her room, she was making
2 a little pot holder kind of thing, I think.
3 Those little moving kind of things, you know.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Another thing that
5 happens sometimes is people might drop by on
6 Christmas Day to say hi, bring a basket by. See
7 the kids, friends, other people. Think about
8 Christmas Day, if you could, before you go to
9 the Whites. Anybody drop in?
10 John went to the airport, right?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I was wrapping more
12 gifts to take to the Whites.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Right. And the kids
14 were playing. You might have been there, a
15 relative, somebody came by. Wrapping, right,
16 maybe nobody came by. You don't remember?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: You don't remember
19 anybody coming by, anything like that?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: (No response.)
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Before a lady came
23 by and dropped off a painting I had gotten for
24 Burke. You know about that.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Yes.
0175
1 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE.) That
2 was not Christmas Day.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: How about Christmas
4 Eve, the day before Christmas, did anybody come
5 by to visit then? I know this is a hard
6 question.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE.)
8 TRIP DeMUTH: And if you don't
9 remember, that's fine.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE
11 RESPONSE.) (SHAKING HEAD.)
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Fair enough.
13 THOMAS HANEY: Here is another
14 topic. Do you know anything about a Christmas
15 poem that was written out and was torn up and
16 thrown in the trash?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: (No response.)
18 TRIP DeMUTH: You know the poems
19 you wrote and put in the notebook about Santa
20 Claus?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, right.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: Was one torn up and
23 thrown away; do you remember anything like that?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I think I
25 hurriedly put one together the night -- it was
0176
1 usually a kind of a last-minute thing. I don't
2 remember throwing one away.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: I think something
4 like that was seen in the trash, or one of the
5 wastebaskets. Do you remember anything about
6 that?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean I did it
8 on the computer I think. I mean -- I mean, I am
9 just guessing. Maybe it was a copy that, not a
10 final draft, you know.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: But you don't know?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
13 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
14 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay, that's fine.
15 THOMAS HANEY: On the 26th, Barbara
16 Fernie went and picked up the prescription for
17 you.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know what
19 time.
20 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Had you
21 called the doctor or had she, you know, or do
22 you know which?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: I think -- after we
24 found JonBenet and all that?
25 THOMAS HANEY: Well, it was
0177
1 sometime that day, and I don't know exactly what
2 time, that she went and got some prescription
3 for you.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean after --
5 after, details like that, I am out of it.
6 Really (INAUDIBLE).
7 THOMAS HANEY: Did somebody call,
8 would it have been Dr. Buff --
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I think Dr. Buff
10 came over to the Fernies, I remember, and I
11 remember saying something to him like oh, my
12 gosh, you're going to have to give me something.
13 I may have called to -- to him.
14 THOMAS HANEY: Do you recall what
15 it was?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 THOMAS HANEY: Did you get an
18 invitation to a New Year's Eve party from a Carl
19 Kumley (phonetic) and Frances Draper (phonetic),
20 those names?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Frances Draper I
22 believe was the (INAUDIBLE) and I think was in
23 (INAUDIBLE) and I think I declined because and I
24 think we did get that and I think I declined
25 because we were going to be on the Big Red Boat
0178
1 trip.
2 THOMAS HANEY: Do you know what
3 would have happened to that invitation then? ?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)
5 VOICE: Where was it kept, where
6 would it have been in your house?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I usually kept
8 them up, kind of stuck behind a (INAUDIBLE) in
9 the kitchen so I could remember to RSVP and go.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: That was found
11 outside the door leading to the patio. Do you
12 have any idea how it got there?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: You remember getting
15 that invitation though, right?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: I remember that,
17 yes.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you know how you
19 got it, was it hand-delivered, mailed?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I believe it was --
21 I mean it's kind of far -- I just vaguely know
22 these people, I vaguely remember that. We must
23 have gotten it in the mail, but I don't
24 remember.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: You don't remember
0179
1 how you got it?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: But you do remember
4 getting it?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, I do.
6 THOMAS HANEY: You had some fliers
7 or brochures made out to the home tour. Were
8 they kept in one or more places?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Most of them, I
10 believe, were in a little basket in the very
11 front foyer.
12 THOMAS HANEY: By the front door?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding).
14 TRIP DeMUTH: Go ahead, I'm sorry.
15 THOMAS HANEY: No, go ahead.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: I sure we are going
17 to ask the same question. Where was the basket?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: It was like back in
19 this corner, there is the door, we had --
20 (Handing document.)
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay, and what was
22 the basket on?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: It was there on the
24 floor.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: What kind of basket
0180
1 was it? What did it look like, was it an open
2 basket?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, like a little
4 garden basket, you know.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: About that size?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE
7 RESPONSE.)
8 TRIP DeMUTH: Where were the
9 fliers, inside of that?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, they were just
11 laying there.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: How many were there
13 in, I mean, a couple, a few, a lot?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I have no idea. 50.
15 TRIP DeMUTH: Why did you have them
16 there?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I had had them there
18 from the year before for the Christmas tour. Or
19 two years before. (INAUDIBLE.)
20 TRIP DeMUTH: Where else in the
21 house did you have fliers like that?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe --
23 TRIP DeMUTH: If any.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I think they just
25 sat right there for a long time.
0181
1 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
2 THOMAS HANEY: While we have that
3 out, if you wouldn't mind just marking an X with
4 just a blue pen. And also while we have got it
5 out, would you just initial and date each of
6 these.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: What's the date?
8 THOMAS HANEY: 23rd. Just --
9 PATSY RAMSEY: You mean me to --
10 THOMAS HANEY: Oh, yes. Just date
11 it, I am sorry.
12 (Patsy Ramsey complies.)
13 TRIP DeMUTH: One more question on
14 those fliers. What information was in the
15 fliers?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, it was like a
17 house history, you know, when they used to tour
18 through, that Boulder Home Tour, it's a new
19 building, when, and kind of description of the
20 railings or very special features.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Was it biographical
22 information about your family?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: It might have said
24 like, you know, daughter JonBenet's bedroom and
25 decorating and pink and blah, blah, blah,
0182
1 something like that. College son, John Andrew,
2 da-de-da-de-da, something like that.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: All right.
4 THOMAS HANEY: Was JonBenet taking
5 tap lessons at or about this time?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, I believe she
7 was.
8 THOMAS HANEY: Where was she taking
9 them?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Boulder Rec Center.
11 THOMAS HANEY: How often?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Once a week.
13 THOMAS HANEY: Was this part of
14 their -- the Rec Center program, or was it some
15 private person came in?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No, it was a Rec
17 Center program.
18 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, so it would
19 have been one of the staff, the instructor would
20 have been?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
22 THOMAS HANEY: Do you know who that
23 person was?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: It was Joseph
25 Beaucage.
0183
1 TRIP DeMUTH: Say again?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Joseph Beaucage.
3 THOMAS HANEY: How many kids were
4 in that group?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: About six or eight.
6 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, pretty small
7 group?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding.)
9 THOMAS HANEY: I think you said it
10 was once a week?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
12 THOMAS HANEY: How long had she
13 been going to that?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it started
15 in the fall and they were getting ready for a --
16 you know, had this community dance recital in
17 March, I think.
18 THOMAS HANEY: Did you ever go to
19 the practices, hang around, or were they open to
20 the parents or --
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, you mean the
22 lessons?
23 THOMAS HANEY: Yes.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: We were allowed to
25 stay outside there.
0184
1 THOMAS HANEY: And visit with other
2 parents?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
4 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. During those
5 lessons, anything unusual with any of the
6 parents there?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean Pinky
8 Barber had her daughter in it, and Gwen Habley
9 (phonetic) was in it and (INAUDIBLE name).
10 And Burke, I had found -- Burke
11 would always go and kind of be hanging out. So
12 I had asked around and found a -- this old guy
13 that taught basketball lessons. So while
14 JonBenet was in there doing tap dancing class,
15 this fellow would work for Burke -- the gym
16 there, 45 minutes.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: What was his name?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Basketball.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Let me throw a name
20 out there for you. Howard Berkes (phonetic)
21 sound right, or do you know a Howard Berkes?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Howard, I believe it
23 was Howard.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: How did you find him?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, I think I was
0185
1 sitting there talking with Pinky Barber on the
2 little benches there, outside the classroom, and
3 said, you know, boy, I wish I could find
4 somebody like a high school kid or somebody that
5 would teach -- work with Burke on basketball a
6 little bit. And if I remember, there was this
7 guy on a ladder that was changing light bulbs at
8 the Rec Center, said, "I overheard you." He
9 said, "I have a buddy that used to coach
10 basketball." And -- am I talking too much?
11 VOICE: Tom was five minutes ahead
12 of me on the first one actually. (INAUDIBLE.)
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. Anyway, this
14 guy said, I met this guy, so he --
15 TRIP DeMUTH: Howard?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: I believe his name
17 was. Old guy, I think kind of (INAUDIBLE).
18 Loved basketball. Loved to teach kids.
19 (Movement in the room made
20 videotape inaudible.)
21 THOMAS HANEY: Did you take some
22 photographs of JonBenet in the basement laundry
23 room?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: You had presents in
0186
1 the basement laundry room, right?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: So you wrapped
4 presents in the basement laundry room, right?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: So you were down in
7 the basement laundry room pretty often?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Depending on what
9 time of year it was, yeah, uh-hum.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: And do you remember
11 photographs being -- photographs of JonBenet
12 being in there?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Taken of her in the
14 laundry room?
15 TRIP DeMUTH: No, no. Photographs
16 of her located in the laundry room?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, in the laundry
18 room, oh. I don't know, there was a bunch of
19 stuff, I mean wrapping stuff and everything. I
20 don't remember any photographs.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Is there any reason
22 why there would be photographs of JonBenet
23 located in the laundry room?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Were there --
25 I mean, did somebody find them there?
0187
1 TRIP DeMUTH: If there were, would
2 that be out of place for you?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: It would seem to be
4 out of place. I kept wrapping materials and
5 sometimes I worked, wrapping station, Christmas
6 paper and --
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Would -- who else had
8 access to the laundry room, who else would go in
9 there? I know everybody would have access, but
10 who else would use it? Would the boys play in
11 there? Would John go down there?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean anybody
13 could, but I mean the boys could come down and
14 go in the train room, we had the train set up.
15 In the far back in through there, you know. Not
16 in the laundry, really, area.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Did anybody besides
18 you use that laundry room?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Sometimes Linda
20 would wash, if we were washing comforters or
21 something, because those were big heavy-duty
22 laundry machines, she'd take the things in
23 there, rugs and things, and wash them down
24 there.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
0188
1 THOMAS HANEY: So you don't recall
2 taking a photo of her down there?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)
4 THOMAS HANEY: If she was doing
5 something really cutesy or something, would you
6 maybe run and get the camera, take one of her?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Of her in the
8 laundry room?
9 THOMAS HANEY: Uh-hum.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
11 THOMAS HANEY: You were asked
12 before about the Secret Santa and JonBenet
13 having a Secret Santa or talking about it. I
14 know it's been 18 months, but do you have any
15 clues now, was it something -- who could have
16 been the Secret Santa or had some special
17 meaning for her, something -- some family
18 member, friend, just associated with school,
19 anything?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I really don't
21 remember her talking about a Secret Santa. I
22 mean Burke had -- I remember Burke had a Secret
23 Santa kind of thing in his classroom that year,
24 because he was supposed to have taken a little
25 small gift every day for a week or something,
0189
1 and he forgot until the last day. I said oh, my
2 gosh, this poor child went to school, didn't get
3 a Secret Santa, you know, and (INAUDIBLE). So
4 he had that.
5 And at this national pageant,
6 because it's a national pageant, they had a
7 Secret Sister kind of thing, and, you know, you
8 would leave a little hint about who you are, you
9 know, I am on the 4th floor, I tap dance or
10 whatever, and leave a little trinket. You know,
11 just kind of get to know you, break the ice kind
12 of.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: When did -- did
14 JonBenet have any Secret Sister?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: And when did she find
17 out who her Secret Sister was?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: At the end of the
19 week, that pageant week.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: Was that before
21 Christmas?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yeah, that was
23 in the summer.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: Oh, that was in the
25 summer?
0190
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: So did JonBenet have
3 a Secret Santa that you know of?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean, she
5 knew Santa Claus always came to visit but --
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Who would you think,
7 if it was somebody who was -- played the role of
8 a Secret Santa for JonBenet, who comes to mind
9 as somebody who might do that with JonBenet?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I am not sure how to
11 even -- how they would -- what Secret Santa, I
12 don't understand.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Bring a present to
14 her, I am your Secret Santa, I am going to have
15 a special present for you after Christmas type
16 of thing, or some such thing like that. Is
17 there anybody that you can think of that comes
18 to mind who might have that type of relationship
19 with JonBenet?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I mean Bill
21 McReynolds, who played our Santa Claus, you
22 know, was very fond of JonBenet. He was, you
23 know, from our house, he'd take them by the hand
24 and take them to get something to eat, you know,
25 and he just adored her. I mean, that would be
0191
1 the only one I would think.
2 I mean the year prior he came
3 after -- to our house after Christmas, not in
4 Santa Claus regalia, just in his street clothes,
5 you know, and he had a gingerbread house, and
6 he -- and I looked at him and I am going, "what
7 are you doing here, you're going to spoil the
8 surprise."
9 And he said, he said, oh, aren't
10 Santa Clause is Brett or Bill, he told the kids,
11 and he said my son made this gingerbread house.
12 His son was a baker down at a cake place down in
13 the (INAUDIBLE) Shopping Center, and he made
14 gingerbread houses.
15 And he said, you know, I have this
16 gingerbread house, and I think -- thought since
17 you all were into Christmas, I would bring it to
18 you all. And so he told JonBenet and Burke that
19 he was Santa Claus's brother, and that he looked
20 like Santa Claus, except in his jeans and
21 whatever. He said I am Santa Claus's brother
22 and I herd his reindeer for him during the
23 summers. You know. And --
24 TRIP DeMUTH: That was the
25 Christmas before?
0192
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Before, yes.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: And how long after
3 Christmas did he show up as Santa Claus's
4 brother?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: A couple of days
6 later.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Did JonBenet
8 have expectations that Bill McReynolds would go
9 by again after Christmas 1996?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't think
11 so.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
13 THOMAS HANEY: Was she ever alone
14 with McReynolds?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I wouldn't say
16 alone, no. I mean we had a Christmas party
17 going on with other people all over the house,
18 kids, you know, and -- alone, no.
19 THOMAS HANEY: Which adults were
20 close to JonBenet, outside of you and John?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, of course
22 Mother and Father, my sisters, that side of the
23 family. The Whites. The Fernies.
24 THOMAS HANEY: Your parents, did
25 they spend a lot of time with JonBenet?
0193
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
2 THOMAS HANEY: Obviously during
3 the --
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
5 THOMAS HANEY: They both lived out
6 here?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum, yes.
8 THOMAS HANEY: Who else, what other
9 adults?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: (No response.)
11 THOMAS HANEY: How about
12 babysitters, did you have adult or teenage or --
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, usually either
14 my father would babysit.
15 Sometimes he would work with
16 (INAUDIBLE) you know. So --
17 THOMAS HANEY: Did he live close
18 by?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum, they are
20 real close to him. (INAUDIBLE.) And he would
21 either go out for dinner or something and he
22 would take the kids to dinner. Or my mother if
23 we went out of the country or sometime for a
24 long period of time, she'd come out and the rest
25 of the family would -- and then Suzanne Savage
0194
1 (phonetic) would come out a lot.
2 THOMAS HANEY: And were there
3 others, you know, particularly in the last prior
4 year?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean most
6 exclusively pretty much my dad was always
7 around.
8 THOMAS HANEY: He was still here
9 during the day?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
11 THOMAS HANEY: On the 25th,
12 Christmas, when you put JonBenet to bed, did she
13 have any marks on her?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I noticed.
15 THOMAS HANEY: Any scratches, cuts,
16 bruises?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I noticed.
18 THOMAS HANEY: How about, did she
19 have any marks from markers or anything like
20 that?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't notice
22 anything that night when she went to bed. And,
23 you know, I know there was a red heart on her
24 hand or her forehead. I don't know when that --
25 I mean, you know, I didn't -- I didn't inspect
0195
1 her when I put her to bed.
2 THOMAS HANEY: But when you put her
3 to bed, let's talk about that. We will go into
4 a little more detail later, because we have some
5 photographs and we want to talk about that. You
6 were -- at least changed part of her clothing
7 when she is asleep?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum, right.
9 THOMAS HANEY: Doesn't --
10 (INAUDIBLE). Did you notice anything?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (No response.)
12 THOMAS HANEY: Would she have
13 washed her hands at a particular time?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, at dinner, she
15 rarely washed her hands.
16 THOMAS HANEY: Would she, or
17 perhaps she had been eating crab and you have
18 that slimy stuff all over?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I think she is
20 going to wash her hands. But I didn't see her.
21 I don't know.
22 THOMAS HANEY: Getting her ready
23 that early afternoon, four or five o'clock, did
24 you give her a bath, did she take a bath?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think so.
0196
1 THOMAS HANEY: You don't think you
2 gave her one?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
4 THOMAS HANEY: Do you think she
5 took one?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, she didn't take
7 one (INAUDIBLE).
8 THOMAS HANEY: Showers?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
10 THOMAS HANEY: Would she have
11 washed her hands before getting ready to go?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I'd like to think
13 so, but I just don't know for sure.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: At the Whites, did
15 somebody say, oh, here, get ready for dinner?
16 Did somebody tell her to go wash her hands at
17 the Whites, do you remember anything about that?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: How was she about
20 washing her hands?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Just typical kid,
22 you know, if she can get by with it, she
23 wouldn't do it. You know, but I was pretty much
24 always (INAUDIBLE). (Gesturing.)
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Had you referred to
0197
1 that at all Christmas Day?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I
3 don't remember exactly, but I may have.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: How do you know there
5 was a heart on her hand?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Because it was on
7 there in the morning, that's why.
8 TRIP DeMUTH: And you remember it
9 from the next morning?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: You saw it the next
12 morning?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: When you say the next
15 morning, did you remember it from the previous
16 evening?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.) (No
18 response.)
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Did she -- I mean did
20 it get there, was that something she would do
21 or --
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she and
23 Daphne, you know, a lot of times drew on
24 themselves.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you ever see a
0198
1 heart on her hand before?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Not specifically a
3 heart.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: What might you have
5 seen before?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Just markings, you
7 know, just erratic marks maybe, she had been
8 coloring, pen or ink marks, or like fingers from
9 markers or something.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you ever draw
11 anything on the palm of her hands?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Was there ever an
14 occasion when you would draw a smiley face on
15 the palm of her hand or on her hand somewhere?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: As a matter of fact,
17 I discouraged her doing that because we always
18 did what we called the pageant scrub the night
19 before we have a pageant. We would wash her
20 hair real good, and scrub her fingernails, and,
21 you know, and oftentimes she would have, you
22 know, marker all over herself or something, on
23 her leg or something. Say, honey, now don't do
24 that, wipe it off. We had to use nail polish
25 remover, sort of try to dilute it and get it
0199
1 off. So I kind of discouraged that as much as
2 possible.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: There was something
4 regarding that you would draw a smiley face when
5 she was feeling down to perk her up. What would
6 your reaction be to that?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: That I would do it?
8 TRIP DeMUTH: Yes.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember
10 doing that.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: Did anybody have a
12 particular liking or habit of drawing hearts?
13 Did JonBenet draw hearts routinely?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
15 Typically children do a lot of different things.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Some little kids have
17 this --
18 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
19 THOMAS HANEY: Line dine job --
20 PATSY RAMSEY: She drew suns and
21 things and birds and things like that.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: What was your
23 reaction when you saw that heart on her hand?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I just thought
25 Daphne must have done it or something, you know,
0200
1 they were playing the night before. You know --
2 you know, my mind ran things out. But Santa
3 Claus made a point the night that he was at our
4 house at the party and was, you know, reading
5 this dialogue that I had written up, and then he
6 told this story about, you know, how Christmas
7 should be Christmas all the time, all year long,
8 and he said, "and where is Christmas when it's
9 not really Christmas," something like that. He
10 said particularly JonBenet, and he pointed to
11 JonBenet. And she said in her heart. Pointing.
12 So I mean, you know, I just turned
13 around. I am trying to figure and figure and
14 put things together, but, you know, that -- I am
15 sure you all have too, but --
16 TRIP DeMUTH: You knew her best.
17 That's why we need to ask about her habits.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: That was a pretty
19 good little heart, you know, I mean -- pretty
20 well drawn.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
22 THOMAS HANEY: I see we are at -- a
23 little after 4.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Anything on the
25 picture or something, you know.
0201
1 THOMAS HANEY: We will do that
2 tomorrow, how's that. And we had talked at the
3 last break, Mr. Burke, Mr. DeMuth and myself,
4 about stopping about 4 and then having at it
5 again tomorrow.
6 A couple of things, though before
7 we do. We asked the kind of questions, you
8 probably won't remember too many of 'em, but if
9 you think of an answer to one, or an addition,
10 supplement, if you make a little note and
11 tomorrow first thing let's talk about 'em or
12 give us your impressions or thoughts or
13 whatever. Okay?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
15 THOMAS HANEY: The other thing is
16 before we stop, is there anything you want to
17 ask us right now? Anything you want to add?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, man. A zillion
19 questions.
20 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, well, then --
21 do you want to do that now or you want to wait
22 until --
23 PATSY RAMSEY: How much time you
24 got?
25 THOMAS HANEY: Well, we have got
0202
1 time. However you want to do it.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, you guys had
3 enough for today or an hour or --
4 PATRICK BURKE: I know that, Patsy,
5 Ellis had some questions, and what I thought was
6 a better way of proceeding was to try and get
7 through your questions and then let Patsy ask
8 her questions.
9 THOMAS HANEY: Absolutely.
10 PATRICK BURKE: It is our hope that
11 we get to do some interactive-type discussion,
12 but we don't want to interfere with, you know,
13 what you're trying to accomplish.
14 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. We appreciate
15 that, and I think that's a good plan. Let's get
16 through these and then we have got all the time
17 we need. So that will conclude today at 4:06.
18 And we are going to start at what time tomorrow?
19 What time is good?
20 PATRICK BURKE: I think 9 o'clock.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: That's fine with me.
22 PATRICK BURKE: Let us say that we
23 had, and this is just a guess, let's say we had
24 a solid half-hour to an hour's worth of
25 questions, I don't know if that's right, because
0203
1 I don't know. I don't know that that's right,
2 because when you say a half-hour, when do you
3 think we would be done tomorrow?
4 TRIP DeMUTH: I don't know, late
5 afternoon.
6 THOMAS HANEY: Yeah.
7 PATRICK BURKE: Okay. We might you
8 know, is it, if we had to go into Thursday,
9 would that be in the realm of possibility?
10 TRIP DeMUTH: We can talk about
11 that. Okay.
12 (THE QUESTIONING ENDED FOR THE
13 DAY.)
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
0204
1 _______________________________________________
2
3 IN THE MATTER OF:
4
5
6 INTERVIEW WITH PATSY RAMSEY
7
8 _______________________________________________
9
10
11 TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW
12
13 VOLUME 2 (continuing)
14 PAGES 204 - 326
15
16
17
18
19 JUNE 24, 1998
20
21
22
23
24
25
0205
1 FOR PATSY RAMSEY'S INTERVIEW,
2 THE FOLLOWING WERE PRESENT:
3
4
5 THOMAS HANEY
6 TRIP DeMUTH
7 PATRICK BURKE
8 ELLIS ARMISTEAD
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
0206
1 THOMAS HANEY: Today is Wednesday,
2 June 24, 1998 and the time is approximately
3 9:03 a.m. Again we are present in the
4 Broomfield Police Department. Present is
5 Patricia Ramsey (INAUDIBLE) and how did you
6 spend yesterday, how did you feel?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Fine, great. I
8 think, a couple of things that I thought about,
9 that I wanted to clarify maybe. You were asking
10 about -- particularly about the pictures of
11 JonBenet in the basement, and I remember that I
12 had taken some Xerox copies of her portfolio
13 pictures, you know, studio head shots. And
14 there was a paper cutter down there, and that I
15 used, and that --
16 TRIP DeMUTH: That could be it?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: That could be it.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: I haven't seen the
19 pictures.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay, I wasn't clear
21 whether you were talking about picture of her in
22 the laundry room, or pictures of her located in
23 the laundry room. And I think that I read
24 somewhere talking about the heart on her hand.
25 And truthfully, I can't -- I am having trouble
0207
1 distinguishing whether I have read about that or
2 whether I actually saw that. I just recently
3 read parts of the autopsy report, and I believe
4 that was on there. And I just, you know, now I
5 have a picture of a heart on her hand and I
6 can't remember whether I actually saw it or --
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Let me ask you this.
8 Do you remember what color it was? Is there a
9 color that you recall?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I just see a red
11 heart in my mind.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: But you don't know if
13 you read it?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I just to be
15 perfectly fair, to say that I saw it on her.
16 And what else.
17 Oh, I was trying to think about
18 Jacques, and I tried to figure out how much time
19 he was at our house and their house and all
20 that. And you know, we talked about 50-50,
21 60-40, you really don't -- I can't say who was
22 there a lot. You might ask the Barnhills, they
23 might know, you know, a little better.
24 THOMAS HANEY: But there was no set
25 schedule?
0208
1 PATSY RAMSEY: No, like Tuesday
2 Wednesday, Thursday or something, no.
3 THOMAS HANEY: Just as it happened?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
5 THOMAS HANEY: Anything else?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, that's all.
7 (Mumbling.)
8 THOMAS HANEY: Do you think we
9 treated you fairly yesterday?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
11 THOMAS HANEY: Yesterday, you
12 mentioned a medication that you were taking.
13 Did you take your evening dosage?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Um-hum.
15 THOMAS HANEY: Last night and
16 today?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
18 THOMAS HANEY: Now, you were taking
19 Prozac and Ativan?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Prozac.
21 THOMAS HANEY: And who prescribed
22 Prozac?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Dr. Sammy Brown in
24 Atlanta.
25 THOMAS HANEY: How about the
0209
1 Ativan?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: As well.
3 THOMAS HANEY: What were these
4 drugs prescribed for, the Prozac and the Ativan?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the Prozac is
6 for -- is an antidepressant, and for -- and then
7 they said that I have post-traumatic stress
8 syndrome. So Prozac is, my understanding of it
9 is that it's kind for a long time (INAUDIBLE)
10 low. And the Ativan is more for quick
11 (INAUDIBLE).
12 THOMAS HANEY: And did you take the
13 Ativan this morning?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
15 THOMAS HANEY: Do you normally take
16 it in the morning though?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I just have it,
18 like I have it with me in case I get really
19 upset about something.
20 THOMAS HANEY: But nothing affected
21 you that happened yesterday?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
23 THOMAS HANEY: That wasn't
24 necessary?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I think it
0210
1 (INAUDIBLE).
2 THOMAS HANEY: Okay.
3 Benadryl, did you take any of that
4 last night?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: I did take that,
6 yes.
7 THOMAS HANEY: Is that a
8 prescription or is that over-the-counter?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Over-the-counter.
10 THOMAS HANEY: Do you have any side
11 effects if you take any or all of these things,
12 if you take any one by itself do you get side
13 effects? If you take a combination of the
14 Prozac and Benadryl and Ativan?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I think that's
16 kind of (INAUDIBLE).
17 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Do you think
18 that it affects your ability to understand
19 questions?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
21 THOMAS HANEY: To answer?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
23 THOMAS HANEY: It hasn't affected
24 you (INAUDIBLE)?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
0211
1 THOMAS HANEY: Just a couple of
2 more quick ones here. Prior to the bout with
3 cancer, have you had any psychiatric or
4 psychological treatment complications?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
6 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. What did you
7 do last night after you got out of here?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I went to the and
9 (INAUDIBLE). And took a nap and then got up,
10 ate dinner, and talked with my friends and met
11 with this gentleman for a couple of hours. Went
12 to bed about 8:30 and read, that's it.
13 THOMAS HANEY: What was the
14 conversation with this guy? How about did you
15 and John discuss what happened yesterday?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 THOMAS HANEY: You didn't --
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I said how was your
19 day, fine. How was your day, fine.
20 THOMAS HANEY: You didn't discuss,
21 they didn't ask this, they didn't ask that?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I was very tired, we
23 both were. I was kind of tired -- I was more
24 tired than I thought I was. I think
25 (INAUDIBLE).
0212
1 THOMAS HANEY: Now we talked
2 yesterday about you and John having some new
3 friends down in Atlanta, trying to get things
4 going. What do you and John do, just the two of
5 you?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: We like to go to
7 breakfast together. We are now working on the
8 remodeling plans for our house. That's kind of
9 something we do together.
10 THOMAS HANEY: A major remodel?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Pretty major, yes.
12 So that's --
13 THOMAS HANEY: More significant
14 than the house up here?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yes. This will
16 be a lot of structural things. And we and --
17 THOMAS HANEY: Okay?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Although we have
19 been working some together. Neighbor and
20 architects. Those kind of projects together.
21 And --
22 THOMAS HANEY: Okay?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, we have been
24 working some together. He is starting a new
25 business, and I am kind of helping with the
0213
1 marketing plans and that kind of thing.
2 THOMAS HANEY: And I am not trying
3 to get any insider information or anything, but
4 what kind of business are you two working on
5 now?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: He has purchased the
7 North American (INAUDIBLE) for some video
8 software technology. And, you know, they go
9 through a lot of mergers with companies, that
10 kind of thing. But he will be the president and
11 CEO of North American and I would like to be
12 vice president of marketing. We are getting
13 office space and phones and computer systems,
14 you know, all that kind of stuff.
15 THOMAS HANEY: That must be quite a
16 challenge?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, uh-hum.
18 THOMAS HANEY: Not that you haven't
19 been working, but, I understand that being at
20 home is plenty of work, but out in the work
21 force. Okay. Have you and John over the last
22 year and a half discussed the intruder theory?
23 Yesterday we talked about a couple of other
24 theories.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
0214
1 THOMAS HANEY: What can you tell
2 me, what are your -- what are your feelings,
3 insights?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I mean, can
5 you be more specific or --
6 THOMAS HANEY: No, you know that's
7 the beauty of it, asking a real general
8 question, I think is to give you the opportunity
9 to take the ball and run.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I men, he and
11 I both know there was someone else in the house
12 that night. Beyond that, we don't know.
13 THOMAS HANEY: Have you given
14 thought to how this person gained access?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes. I mean, we
16 have gone to test doors, unfortunately, I am
17 sorry to say, and there were a number of little
18 access ways through the garage, those little
19 doors. That was accessible. The basement
20 window, we had a basement window that faced the
21 front of the house, faced the Barnhills' house,
22 where I would run my Christmas lights, so that
23 window was unlocked. And then this window in
24 the rear of the house where John could come in
25 if he was locked out, under the grate kind of
0215
1 thing, that was open. If someone wanted in,
2 they could get in.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: The window in front,
4 does it have bars on it?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: It does have bars on
6 it.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: I mean were those
8 fastened so that --
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I just can't
10 remember. I don't really know. But all I know
11 is it wasn't tightened secure like you might --
12 TRIP DeMUTH: The window itself?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: Because it would have
15 a hole in it?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: The wires.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: But you don't know
18 anything about the bars being loose or removed
19 or anything like that?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I can't
21 remember.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
23 THOMAS HANEY: Anything else?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh. Not really.
25 THOMAS HANEY: Did John ever
0216
1 explain to you the position and the way
2 JonBenet's body was wrapped in the blanket,
3 covered?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I believe --
5 no, he didn't. When he found her, you mean?
6 THOMAS HANEY: Correct.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
8 THOMAS HANEY: Did you ever inquire
9 about that?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Just too hard.
11 THOMAS HANEY: On your last visit
12 to Bethesda in March, who accompanied you then?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Let's see.
14 THOMAS HANEY: I think you said
15 yesterday March this year was your --
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I think I
17 went by myself. And I think I met Pat Burke
18 there. No, I didn't meet Pat? Did I? Yes.
19 THOMAS HANEY: What is your
20 prognosis?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, great, I am
22 coming up to five years July 4. That's always a
23 magic number.
24 THOMAS HANEY: We touched briefly
25 yesterday on the pageant that JonBenet was in,
0217
1 we talked about the possibility of some parent.
2 Could you talk to us a little bit about how
3 these pageants were set up, how -- what kind of
4 security, if any. You know, how much -- start
5 with how were they publicized? I mean, is it a
6 preset group of people that's involved?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Very small. It's
8 open to anyone, but they don't have a tremendous
9 number of recipients. The first way I learned
10 about it was seeing it listed in Colorado, was
11 through a makeup artist in Denver where I was
12 having my makeup done for a Boulder publication
13 and we were talking about our children. She had
14 two girls and they did the pageants. I said oh,
15 you know, where are they, do you know where they
16 are?
17 And so she told me about her
18 experiences with them. She said she would call
19 or give me the name of someone who did a couple
20 of them. So I subsequently called -- I think
21 the first one I called was -- I can't remember
22 the name. Anyway, there were two different
23 ones. And they had events coming up in the next
24 month or so. So I kind of inquired about it,
25 and went down and entered.
0218
1 THOMAS HANEY: And when would that
2 have been, the first one?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Like spring or --
4 spring of -- spring, spring of '95 or '7? I
5 don't remember.
6 THOMAS HANEY: So you have been
7 involved for about a year and a half then?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
9 THOMAS HANEY: That's great. So
10 help me, did they have like a national
11 organization that has like an umbrella over
12 everything?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, right, this
14 was -- they have a national group, and they
15 would have these local events.
16 THOMAS HANEY: Qualifying or
17 something?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: In a hotel, you
19 know, in a hotel and they would have staging,
20 you know, dressing rooms and all that kind of
21 stuff. And they had different categories, where
22 you could choose to enter whichever categories
23 you would like. You know -- mostly modeling and
24 the reason we did it was because we did the ones
25 that would have talent, like singing, that kind
0219
1 of thing.
2 So then for these, like they have a
3 western category and all the girls would wear
4 like a cute western outfit. And they have
5 sportswear and that would be kind of a dress --
6 you know, so they had these little categories.
7 And they were by age group. JonBenet was in the
8 4-to-6-year-old age group. And 10-to-12. So
9 they weren't competing with anybody much older
10 than they. And you kind of just do that all
11 afternoon, and at the conclusion of the day,
12 they would announce winners in various
13 categories. One of the categories was
14 photography, you know, the portfolios. You
15 know.
16 THOMAS HANEY: Was there like
17 national, local publications, newsletters,
18 things like that that --
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I think they, if you
20 went to one and they got your name, then they
21 would mail you, they always had another next
22 November or whatever.
23 THOMAS HANEY: Had there been any
24 particular newsletter, publication, with a photo
25 or a story about JonBenet that would have been
0220
1 circulated?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, dear. Actually
3 I think one of 'em, I think the American Kids or
4 Royal (INAUDIBLE) had done a brochure and put
5 different kids' pictures on, you know, each time
6 they would announce another event. I think
7 because she had been a winner, her picture was
8 on one of those. That would have gone to -- I
9 mean, I imagine that it just went to people who
10 had previously attended, you know.
11 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Did it give
12 other information about her, just kind of
13 4-to-6?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, right.
15 THOMAS HANEY: Did they, when one
16 of these pageants was held, was there a program
17 that was made up with photos?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
19 THOMAS HANEY: Vital information,
20 name, address?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't think it
22 had the address. It would just have their
23 names. You know like here are the 4-to-6
24 contestants, JonBenet, Susie, blah, blah, blah,
25 blah.
0221
1 THOMAS HANEY: And that was
2 distributed just at the --
3 PATSY RAMSEY: At the day of the
4 event.
5 THOMAS HANEY: You had said these
6 were open to anybody. Was it like a paid
7 admission or --
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I think they
9 charged a little something to get in. Yeah.
10 But mostly just parents and relatives. Yeah.
11 THOMAS HANEY: You had only been
12 involved in it a short period of time?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
14 THOMAS HANEY: So I don't know, did
15 you have a feel for the people who were there,
16 were they the usual folks, I mean it's a -- I am
17 guessing, kind of a small group --
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
19 THOMAS HANEY: -- that regularly
20 competes?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, yeah, you
22 know, the kind of same ones would be in a lot of
23 these events.
24 THOMAS HANEY: But how about some
25 unusual face in the crowd?
0222
1 PATSY RAMSEY: You kind of get to
2 know each other. You know, like, oh, yeah, hi,
3 saw you last time or, you know. Sort of get to
4 know people. It's not that we knew each other
5 very well. We were kind of new, so...
6 TRIP DeMUTH: I am particularly
7 interested in the America Kids performance, and
8 that was only a few days before Christmas,
9 right?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding.)
11 TRIP DeMUTH: A short period before
12 Christmas?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: This was which one,
14 at the mall?
15 TRIP DeMUTH: That's the Southwest
16 Plaza Mall?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: Is that out in the
19 open? Are there walkways at the mall?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: It was an atrium
21 sort of area, in the mall. Where they
22 apparently had activities going on.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: Right. So people
24 that are shopping in the mall can walk by and
25 see the show?
0223
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: So that was offered
3 to anybody just walking by?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: So there wasn't any
6 sense of -- there wasn't any security and
7 control of who was observing this particular
8 performance?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: And there was some
11 discussion about signs in the Photo Kids. Do
12 you know what that is, signs and Photo Kids, do
13 you know what that is?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
15 TRIP DeMUTH: Are they like
16 brochures or magazines or where there --
17 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding.)
18 TRIP DeMUTH: Was there any
19 information, brochures handed out or displays of
20 any sort at the America Kids performance that
21 identified the participants in any way?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I remember.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: In other words if one
24 was walking by and they saw JonBenet, could they
25 find out who she was and where she lived?
0224
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think so,
2 no.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: So I don't know I
4 haven't --
5 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, that was the
7 first time we had done anything like this.
8 TRIP DeMUTH: I am just trying to
9 get a feel for how this was set up. Was there
10 any information at all handed out or displayed
11 about the children at all at the Southwest Plaza
12 Mall?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think so. I
14 don't think it was about the children. I think
15 they made an announcement that if you were
16 interested in more information about the pageant
17 that, I mean, the director was there and you
18 could speak with her or something like that.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Now I know
20 that JonBenet gave some sort of finale, I mean
21 she had some sort of solo singing part?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, a lot of -- I
23 mean there were a dozen of 'em or so there that
24 did --
25 TRIP DeMUTH: A solo?
0225
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: And JonBenet did a
3 solo?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: Was there an
6 announcer who announced her name at all when she
7 did a solo?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably so.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: First and last name?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably so. It may
11 have been taped, I don't know. Maybe you could
12 check with them to see if it had been taped.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: How long did the
14 performance last, approximately?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: The whole thing? Or
16 hers?
17 TRIP DeMUTH: The whole thing.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, the whole thing
19 was probably 45 minutes.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: And the same kind of
21 questions with regard to the beauty pageant at
22 the I-70 and Chambers Road, Holiday Inn that was
23 held on November 1 through 3, of 1996. And I
24 think that's the -- do you remember that one?
25 I-70 and Chambers Road, it's out east, Holiday
0226
1 Inn?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Was that an open
4 atrium or was that in a private room, that
5 contest??
6 PATSY RAMSEY: That was in a
7 private room, like a ballroom kind of thing.
8 Like a conference room, area.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Who could come and go
10 to that?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I guess
12 anyone, you know. I think they charged to get
13 in. When was that held?
14 TRIP DeMUTH: November 1 through 3
15 of 1996. November 1996. That was a pageant of
16 some sort, does that ring a bell?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I mean it
18 does, that place rings a bell, but that date
19 doesn't seem right.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: When did you think it
21 was?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the only
23 reason I am having -- I'm thinking about that is
24 because -- because I was trying to think what
25 she wore, and I think she wore the little white
0227
1 dress, that was a new dress for her that I had
2 gotten that I bought from a woman when we
3 attended a pageant over Thanksgiving in Georgia.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay, uh-hum.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: So she wouldn't have
6 had that dress, you know, she wouldn't have had
7 it --
8 TRIP DeMUTH: Later, okay. Okay,
9 well, maybe I have the date wrong. But what I
10 am concerned about is what information was
11 displayed or announced at that pageant, if you
12 recall?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: They introduced them
14 as they come onto the stage, you know, Number 4
15 is whoever, JonBenet, whatever.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Any brochures?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I recall.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: Was it crowded, were
19 there a lot of people at that pageant?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Not particularly
21 crowded. You know, you look around, you could
22 tell these are such-and-such parents, you know.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: And outside the
24 ballroom, was there any advertisement as to what
25 was going on inside the ballroom?
0228
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't believe so.
2 If I remember right, that was kind of a new
3 hotel and there wasn't much going on.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: And was JonBenet also
5 in the Boulder Philharmonic Choir?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Did they perform?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: And where would they
10 perform?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: They performed --
12 they performed for the Boulder Christmas Pageant
13 or whatever it was, at the Boulder Theatre.
14 There was one there. And they performed --
15 TRIP DeMUTH: And that was open to
16 the public?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Open to the public.
18 And that was performed at the Dairy or something
19 in the fall, the group. In some kind of
20 festival or something.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Now I don't know, but
22 being part of a choir, I imagine that they don't
23 announce individuals or gave out individuals as
24 part of that program?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
0229
1 TRIP DeMUTH: Did JonBenet have any
2 costume-makers besides Pam Griffin?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Who would those be?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Mary Beth.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Any others?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, there was one,
8 Emma, was having trouble, you know, finishing
9 some things, so I found a seamstress I believe
10 through a dress -- through a fabric shop, and
11 her, she was in the Federal Complex in kind of
12 the Westminster area.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: And do you recall her
14 name?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: It's on a check
16 somewhere, I could find that out.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you, or speaking
18 of videotapes of the America Kids, or Amerikids,
19 who were the other pageants, or any of these
20 pageants, did you or anybody else videotape
21 those, that you know of?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: They would always
23 have somebody there videotaping and then you
24 bought the tape.
25 THOMAS HANEY: Are there other
0230
1 videotapes out there that you are aware that we
2 might be able to look at, anything that you know
3 of?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably every one
5 that we were in.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: By the people who put
7 on the performance?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: How about the
10 parents, were they videotaping?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I
12 never did. I don't remember seeing it.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: And did JonBenet ever
14 complain of anyone at the pageant, did she ever
15 tell you somebody bothered her?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Anybody act peculiar
18 around her show?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: And if you could tell
21 us who your photographers were for --
22 PATSY RAMSEY: For her?
23 TRIP DeMUTH: Yes.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: David Haskell, and
25 Randy Simons and Judy Phillips had taken some
0231
1 pictures, but that was before we were really
2 involved in pageants, but then I subsequently
3 used a couple of those for her. Of hers.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: She was also in the
5 Christmas Parade, right?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: She was on a float
8 with a couple of other girls?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it was a car.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Oh, she was
11 sitting in a car?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Was her name
14 displayed anywhere?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: And who was she in
17 the car with?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: My car with the
19 driver, it was a BMW, and JonBenet -- and I
20 wasn't there, I was in New York at the time,
21 John and I were out of town, but my parents took
22 her, and there were these little girls from the
23 America Kids.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: So there were maybe
25 four or five girls?
0232
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: Sitting up on the
3 back of the Beemer?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, right. I
5 can't remember their names. I would if I saw a
6 picture somewhere.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay, now were all of
8 their names displayed on the side of the car?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I believe so.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
11 THOMAS HANEY: How about birthday,
12 Christmas, any time of the year had JonBenet
13 been sick, had she gotten any get well cards,
14 birthday cards, Christmas cards? I mean not a
15 family, not a regular, somebody that you would
16 expect to have her get a card from? I know
17 that's covering lot of territory, but --
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the only one
19 that kind of comes to mind is a letter that
20 she -- after we had come home from the lake,
21 there was, you know, some mail there and there
22 was a letter from Bill McReynolds.
23 THOMAS HANEY: Was that in '96?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum, in '96.
25 THOMAS HANEY: At the end of the
0233
1 summer then?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
3 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. And of course
4 I opened it and it said that he was -- I believe
5 it said that he was about to go into the
6 hospital for open heart surgery, some kind of a
7 pretty major surgery, and he was going to take
8 along with him the bottle of sprinkle dust,
9 prayer dust that she had given him when he was
10 at our house at Christmastime, and --
11 THOMAS HANEY: Christmas '95?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: The previous year,
13 right. And just that that meant a lot to him,
14 and I guess he just wanted us to know he was
15 going to surgery. I mean I thought -- I mean I
16 was surprised that he was going into surgery,
17 and I thought it sweet that he sent us a card.
18 THOMAS HANEY: Announcing his
19 surgery or --
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I kind of got
21 the feeling like if I don't make it through
22 surgery and I don't see you again, I always
23 enjoyed being with you all, you know, something
24 like that. So.
25 THOMAS HANEY: But it was addressed
0234
1 to --
2 PATSY RAMSEY: JonBenet.
3 THOMAS HANEY: -- JonBenet?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I don't
5 remember exactly whether it was -- was written
6 to me or to her or --
7 You had your correspondence along
8 those lines, something out of what you would
9 expect, you know, relatives, no.
10 THOMAS HANEY: And again, something
11 comes to mind, jot it down. There has been some
12 confusion over the times of the return home from
13 the Whites and I know we went through the
14 diagram yesterday and talked about times in the
15 morning, but -- and briefly touched on the time
16 you went to bed. I think you said 10, 10:30?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
18 THOMAS HANEY: Do you recall the
19 time you would have left the Whites, as close as
20 possible?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I just don't
22 know. I had had no reason to really look and
23 see what time it was. I can't really say for
24 sure.
25 THOMAS HANEY: Were you looking for
0235
1 an excuse or, you know, we got to get up early?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I don't
3 remember that.
4 THOMAS HANEY: What's your best
5 guess, though, on the time you would have left?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
7 Probably 9-ish or so. I don't remember.
8 THOMAS HANEY: And how many stops
9 did you make along the way?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Two.
11 THOMAS HANEY: And those were at?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: The Walkers and the
13 Stines.
14 THOMAS HANEY: And you took some
15 presents up to both of them?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
17 THOMAS HANEY: Did anybody take
18 presents up with you (INAUDIBLE)?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Best as I remember,
20 we went to the Walkers first and I took this
21 bottle of perfume to Roxie. And then we went to
22 the Stines and I had a basket of things to give
23 to them. And I think I went by myself. Burke
24 may have jumped out of the car, because it's his
25 friends.
0236
1 THOMAS HANEY: The Stines?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: The Stines. So it
3 was either -- it was either just myself or maybe
4 Burke and myself.
5 THOMAS HANEY: How long did you
6 stay at the Walkers?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, around 10, 15
8 minutes.
9 THOMAS HANEY: And then drive time
10 from there to the Stines?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: A couple of minutes.
12 THOMAS HANEY: And how long did you
13 stay there?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Same. Ten -- maybe
15 ten minutes.
16 THOMAS HANEY: Did JonBenet have
17 panties with the names of each day of the week
18 on it?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
20 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. And did she
21 wear those according to the day of the week or
22 was it just kind of --
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Just whatever.
24 THOMAS HANEY: Did she know, pay
25 much attention to what day of the week it was?
0237
1 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
2 THOMAS HANEY: So whatever would
3 come out of the drawer?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding).
5 THOMAS HANEY: Would she or could
6 she have ever exchanged panties with some other
7 girl that she was playing with?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yeah, probably.
9 You know, if they went swimming or something and
10 got something wet or, you know, it wasn't
11 unusual to have left clothes at our house or
12 somebody else's clothes at somebody else's
13 house.
14 THOMAS HANEY: So they just kind of
15 go in the laundry, maybe get sorted out?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, then the next
17 thing you see, say oh, here, something of yours,
18 and --
19 THOMAS HANEY: Could anybody else
20 have worn hers, say the ones that she was
21 wearing Christmas night, the next morning?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Um --
23 THOMAS HANEY: The ones that she
24 was wearing, you said when you put her to bed
25 Christmas night. She wasn't swimming or
0238
1 anything Christmas Eve --
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
3 THOMAS HANEY: -- at the Whites or
4 there wouldn't have involved -- or did it
5 involve dressing up or trying things on?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
7 (Answering while question being
8 asked).
9 PATSY RAMSEY: You mean would
10 somebody have had her underwear on?
11 THOMAS HANEY: Something along
12 those lines.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: It would have been
14 very unlikely. I can't imagine, no.
15 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you remember the
16 white panties with the printed rosebuds with the
17 words of the day on it, did that sound like
18 JonBenet's panties?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Could have been.
20 She had a lot of 'em, so, I don't know.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: And how --
22 PATSY RAMSEY: If I saw them, I
23 might recall them.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: How often would she
25 change her underwear? Was she good about
0239
1 changing them daily?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yes, yes.
3 Usually we bathed every day and --
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: -- changed her
6 underwear.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Let me ask you if you
8 remember the last time you remember her bathing?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I believe -- I
10 believe the 24th, before we went to church. We
11 went to 4 o'clock service, so we got dressed up.
12 And I don't believe that we did on Christmas
13 Day, because that was too much for (INAUDIBLE).
14 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you recall her
15 another time, her washing her hands after that
16 time that you remember her bath on the 24th?
17 And we talked yesterday about a lot of times
18 that she could have. But specifically do you
19 have any remember --
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I can't
21 specifically say when she would have washed her
22 hands.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: After she bathed
24 though on the 24th, she would have had clean
25 underwear on after that?
0240
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yeah.
2 I am sure she would have had clean
3 underwear on the 25th, though, she'd just not
4 have taken a bath.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: She would have
6 changed them Christmas morning?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Or Christmas
8 afternoon, getting dressed. Christmas morning,
9 you know (indicating a noise).
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
11 THOMAS HANEY: I want to go back
12 briefly to the time, when was it, Elizabeth,
13 Beth Ramsey?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
15 THOMAS HANEY: Could you tell me
16 about that, where were you guys living, how did
17 you find out about this?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: We were living in
19 Colorado, and I found out about it when John and
20 my father came to the house, down on 15th Street
21 and told me about it.
22 THOMAS HANEY: And how -- how did
23 John react to that, how did he take that? Is
24 this his oldest daughter?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: His oldest daughter.
0241
1 He was incredibly distraught. Devastated.
2 THOMAS HANEY: Did he react in a
3 similar fashion to JonBenet's death?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
5 THOMAS HANEY: What we would like
6 to do next is take some photographs, so we can
7 clear off the table here. And we go through
8 these, some have like four photos to a page, we
9 want to take them in order, and of course
10 remembering that we are on video, I'll kind of
11 call the shots, maybe call the number, direct
12 your attention to number 1 or number whatever.
13 And ask you first of all, just to describe what
14 you see in it, and then anything that's unusual,
15 anything that's out of place, anything that
16 stands out, and we will kind of take it from
17 there.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Fair enough.
19 THOMAS HANEY: So if we start off
20 with photo number 1, can you just describe that
21 and talk to us about that.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, this is
23 JonBenet's bedroom and this is the door outside
24 to outside little den. Her bathroom would have
25 been back behind the door. This is the bed she
0242
1 was sleeping in. This is the second twin bed.
2 THOMAS HANEY: Are there any other
3 things in photo number 1 that you can identify,
4 say on top of this trunk there is some blue
5 clothing item. Light blue.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE
7 RESPONSE.)
8 THOMAS HANEY: Also at the foot of
9 the bed, it's kind of hard to tell, it looks
10 like --
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I need my glasses.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: You can also take
13 that picture out of there. There is some glare
14 from the plastic.?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks like --
16 this is like a pillow case or sheets or
17 something. (INAUDIBLE.) It was kind of an
18 (INAUDIBLE).
19 THOMAS HANEY: Anything else that
20 shows in that?
21 Okay. How about number 2?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, see, that's the
23 pillow there.
24 THOMAS HANEY: Okay.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Her Christmas
0243
1 sweater.
2 THOMAS HANEY: When is the last
3 time she wore the Christmas sweater?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know
5 exactly.
6 THOMAS HANEY: Would that be where
7 it would end up?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
9 THOMAS HANEY: So not unusual?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
11 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. And you're
12 pointing in number 2 to this pink clothing item?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
14 THOMAS HANEY: Can you identify
15 that?
16 TRIP DeMUTH: You can see it better
17 on photo 3.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, okay. That's
19 the -- looks like a little pink pajama top, with
20 long underwear.
21 THOMAS HANEY: Was that part of a
22 set of --
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
24 THOMAS HANEY: -- tops and bottoms?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Top and bottom,
0244
1 yeah.
2 THOMAS HANEY: And that, does that
3 appear to be one or the other?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks sort of
5 like the top, because there is a little tag,
6 might be at the neck, you know. It may be
7 inside-out.
8 THOMAS HANEY: And if you can, do
9 you know when JonBenet would have last worn
10 that?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I know she wore it,
12 she had this on Christmas Day.
13 THOMAS HANEY: Okay.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: You know, like when
15 you get up for Santa Claus.
16 THOMAS HANEY: Okay.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: That day.
18 THOMAS HANEY: All right.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: She did not wear it
20 Christmas night, you know.
21 THOMAS HANEY: So when you put her
22 to bed, on Christmas night, do you recall, would
23 that or could that have been in the bed?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: It could have been
25 under the pillow or something, you know.
0245
1 THOMAS HANEY: Was there a regular
2 routine with dirty laundry or a hamper or toss
3 it out the door to the laundry area or --
4 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.) No.
5 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. So it
6 wouldn't be unusual for it --
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No, it was
8 definitely under the pillow, right.
9 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, if we can go
10 back to photo number of 2 so we don't jump too
11 far ahead. It looks like there is a bedspread,
12 I guess it's kind of a light --
13 PATSY RAMSEY: (Mumbling.)
14 THOMAS HANEY: Whatever color that
15 is. It appears to be covering about half, maybe
16 a little bit more than half, fairly well
17 distributed as far as hanging over the bed down
18 to the --
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
20 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. It doesn't
21 appear that if there had been a blanket under
22 that or anything, that anything was pulled out
23 from --
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, I see what you
25 mean. Uh-hum.
0246
1 (Witness mumbling into hand.)
2 (INAUDIBLE.)
3 TRIP DeMUTH: How was her blanket
4 on the bed?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Normally it was made
6 and it would be the fitted sheet and there was
7 usually a top sheet. Kind of a bed sheet, you
8 know.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Pointing to photo 3.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: There was a top
11 sheet and then there was her blanket, this
12 cotton blanket.
13 THOMAS HANEY: And could you
14 describe that?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it was kind
16 of whitish, loose weave, you know. Kind of
17 crocheted looking sort of, and that would have
18 been, you know, all that stuff tucked in under
19 the bed and then this is a comforter that just
20 lays on top. You know. Hangs down to the --
21 just over the dust ruffle.
22 THOMAS HANEY: So that lighter
23 blanket that you talked about would have been
24 tucked in between the mattress and the box
25 spring?
0247
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum. Oh, you
2 mean -- you know how you make it, tuck it right
3 here, you know.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Under the mattress?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, right, so it
6 doesn't pull out.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: So the blanket would
8 have been tucked all the way down to the foot of
9 the bed.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct, under
11 this, under that.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Then the bedspread
13 looks like it's properly and evenly distributed
14 at the foot of the bed?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: You're right.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you see the
17 blanket in there at all?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No. No.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: She didn't, the
20 blanket never worked itself out and laid loose
21 on top of the bed, did it?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, sometimes.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: You know, completely
24 untucked, that's what I am asking. Do you know
25 how JonBenet slept, if that was a normal
0248
1 practice or was it tucked in?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, something
3 that kind of heavy, you know, this was fairly
4 heavy. It was -- it would be unlikely that it
5 would be completely out, without being pulled
6 out.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Without the bedspread
8 being disturbed also?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I would think.
10 THOMAS HANEY: When you put
11 JonBenet to bed on Christmas night, was that
12 lightweight blanket in the bed?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I
14 can't say for sure.
15 THOMAS HANEY: Take a second and go
16 back to that routine that night of --
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, God. I can't
18 remember exactly.
19 THOMAS HANEY: But it should have
20 been?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Should have been.
22 THOMAS HANEY: Or would have been
23 probably?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: What about the pillow
0249
1 at the foot of the bed, is that --
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
3 THOMAS HANEY: Did she use a
4 pillow? Some people do, some don't.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No, no, she did.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: I mean the way the
7 sweater is thrown at the foot of the bed is not
8 unusual, right?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: She would have done
11 that?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Did she ever put her
14 pillow at the foot of the bed, would that be
15 usual or unusual?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: That would be
17 unusual.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: What about the way
19 that is generally made, did she make her bed?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Was it usually in
22 this condition, other than what you see with the
23 pillow there?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, an unmade
25 bed is an unmade bed. I mean --
0250
1 TRIP DeMUTH: Nothing strikes you
2 as being unusual about that, other than the
3 blanket and the pillow?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
5 THOMAS HANEY: There is something
6 hanging, is that a pink clothing item?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: I think that's a
8 little (INAUDIBLE).
9 THOMAS HANEY: Are there items at
10 the foot of the bed?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE
12 RESPONSE.)
13 (Patsy Ramsey looking down into
14 photographs. Hand in front of her face.)
15 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. How about
16 number 4 here, this is with that lamp on. And
17 would that be normal, to leave that on?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Not when she is
19 sleeping.
20 THOMAS HANEY: Do you recall that
21 lamp being on in the morning of the 26th?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I don't
23 remember.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: How do you turn that
25 lamp on?
0251
1 PATSY RAMSEY: With, you know --
2 TRIP DeMUTH: You have to go to the
3 lamp to turn it on?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: Not a light switch on
6 the wall?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think so. I
8 can't remember. That was a fairly new lamp, I
9 had just gotten that in New York, in December.
10 I can't remember (INAUDIBLE).
11 THOMAS HANEY: But it wasn't
12 connected to an outlet or -- when you walked in?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't know.
14 THOMAS HANEY: Was there a ceiling
15 fixture lamp in that room?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE.) I
17 think there was a -- was there a (INAUDIBLE).
18 THOMAS HANEY: I am sorry?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Was there a fan, was
20 there a fan there? I think there was an
21 (INAUDIBLE). I think there was.
22 THOMAS HANEY: We might be able to
23 see it later.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember
25 whether there was a light.
0252
1 THOMAS HANEY: That wasn't a light?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: So was there a switch
4 at the door, was there a light switch?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: What light did that
7 turn on? When you throw that switch? Don't
8 recall?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I don't
10 remember.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. I have one
12 more on this one, Tom.
13 There is a stain here on the
14 carpet. Do you know what was spilled there or
15 what that is? Do you remember a stain on the
16 carpet in that area?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I remember I
18 spilled red (INAUDIBLE) there one time and that
19 was (INAUDIBLE). (Whispering into photographs.)
20 No.
21 THOMAS HANEY: Anything else before
22 we go on, or do you want to look at these 1
23 through 4 any more? We can come back to them
24 also.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
0253
1 When were these taken?
2 THOMAS HANEY: These photos were
3 taken the morning of the 26th.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: It was before
5 JonBenet was found.
6 THOMAS HANEY: We will start with
7 number 5. Can you just describe what you see in
8 there?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I don't
10 recognize that little (INAUDIBLE) at all.
11 THOMAS HANEY: Little red and white
12 Santa, stuffed animal?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Um.
14 THOMAS HANEY: Could it have been a
15 recent gift?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: I could see that,
17 you all have that toy, if I could see that, I
18 would know. That doesn't look --
19 THOMAS HANEY: Did JonBenet have a
20 lot of stuffed animals?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: A lot of stuffed
22 animals.
23 THOMAS HANEY: So if --
24 PATSY RAMSEY: But I knew 'em, knew
25 'em.
0254
1 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Anything else
2 on the bed?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, this looks
4 like a little -- the little pot holder square
5 she was making. This multi-colored thing here.
6 This black thing I can't (INAUDIBLE). Oh,
7 that's sort of looks like it might be the little
8 velvet dress (INAUDIBLE). Little silver snaps.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: When did she last
10 wear that?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: She wore that to the
12 Whites on the 25th.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. The evening of
14 the 25th?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: This Santa Claus
16 (INAUDIBLE). Where is that, did you all have
17 that?
18 THOMAS HANEY: I don't think we do,
19 I don't know.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: That could be
21 probably -- I don't think that was (INAUDIBLE).
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Boy.
23 THOMAS HANEY: Did she have other
24 stuffed animals that were, you know,
25 particularly for the Christmas season, that were
0255
1 only out then, or were they out all the time?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE
3 RESPONSE.)
4 THOMAS HANEY: And this bed, how
5 often was that used?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Not very often. My
7 mother would stay there when she was -- when
8 (INAUDIBLE) you know.
9 THOMAS HANEY: Would JonBenet on
10 occasion use that one?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Occasionally. Like
12 if Daphne spent the night or Gwen or somebody.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: What's that white
14 item you see in that picture 5? It's in front
15 of the (INAUDIBLE).
16 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't tell.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Do you want me to
19 write down what this stuff was, when you start
20 taking pictures, you know?.
21 THOMAS HANEY: Well, it was
22 documented also on video and I believe there is
23 a description of what's in each room. You know,
24 sometimes those are a little more thorough and
25 complete.
0256
1 PATSY RAMSEY: It might be, you
2 know, sort of like that I would be able to tell
3 what it is. Okay.
4 THOMAS HANEY: That was 5. Let's
5 go to 6. That's a little --
6 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE
7 RESPONSE.)
8 THOMAS HANEY: And you're pointing
9 to a black object on the floor underneath the --
10 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) or
11 something.
12 THOMAS HANEY: Do you want to take
13 this out?
14 Can you just describe, Ms. Ramsey,
15 what you see in number 6?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, there is a
17 little -- see a little thing on it and her
18 trunk, something black on top of that. I don't
19 know what that is. (Mumbling.) (INAUDIBLE.)
20 THOMAS HANEY: Do you notice
21 anything unusual in that photograph?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, these little
23 loopy things here I think are part of that pot
24 holder thing that she got, you know, with the
25 one you had --
0257
1 THOMAS HANEY: The one we saw in
2 the earlier photograph?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. (INAUDIBLE.)
4 THOMAS HANEY: They also appear
5 to -- possibly like hair ties?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
7 THOMAS HANEY: That could be?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: These little --
9 THOMAS HANEY: Right, the little
10 circular things?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
12 THOMAS HANEY: So and I think we do
13 have another photo here a little bit later
14 that's a little clearer, and we will talk about
15 that, but is there anything else in number 6,
16 would that accurately reflect the way the room
17 was, at least that portion, on the night of the
18 25th?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
20 THOMAS HANEY: Anything out of
21 place, unusual?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No, not that I can
23 tell. I am just not sure what this little bag
24 is here.
25 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, we might have
0258
1 a better shot of that.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: Is it that you don't
3 recognize -- I mean, is it that it's --
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't tell, it
5 sort of looks like a little backpack, but it
6 doesn't look like her backpack. I don't know
7 what --
8 TRIP DeMUTH: It could be hers, you
9 just can't tell?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, yeah, it could
11 be. I can't see it that well. Looks like there
12 is some little like sticker, decal or something
13 right on there, a little patch or something. I
14 can't make out what it is.
15 THOMAS HANEY: We might -- that was
16 6. If we can go on to number 7. Do you want to
17 take them out. I don't know if that's easier or
18 not.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Tom, while she is
20 looking at that, while we are looking at this
21 photo, do you want to bring out the nightgown?
22 THOMAS HANEY: I just thought if
23 we --
24 TRIP DeMUTH: You want to do it in
25 order?
0259
1 THOMAS HANEY: Yeah, whatever.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: A little curio
3 cabinet with her crayons and things in it. I am
4 trying to see. There is, the (INAUDIBLE) here,
5 see that right there? I am quite sure what that
6 was. I think I had taken most of those smaller
7 ones over into the play room and put them up on
8 the shelf.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay, and that's
10 photo 7, right?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum. The doll
12 house. There is the pillow that I put on the
13 front of the bed.
14 THOMAS HANEY: But on number 7,
15 anything that is obviously out of place or
16 unusual about the pillow?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I am just
18 questioning about (INAUDIBLE). I know she had a
19 (INAUDIBLE) there, but she had, lot -- a lot of
20 little trophies sitting around here, but then I
21 took them and put them on the shelf in the
22 playroom. So I don't know.
23 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, that's 7. How
24 about on to 8. There is a little shot partially
25 covering it with the sticker. Let's peel that
0260
1 back.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: This is a little
3 some kind of bag. I can't --
4 THOMAS HANEY: Could it be a purse
5 or something like that, would she have had
6 something --
7 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't, you know
8 (INAUDIBLE).
9 THOMAS HANEY: On to 9.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: (Mumbling into
11 picture.)
12 THOMAS HANEY: You thought that
13 would have been -- like the other bed?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum, kind of side
15 view of that or a white something. I am not
16 sure what that was.
17 THOMAS HANEY: Do you recognize it?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE
19 RESPONSE.)
20 THOMAS HANEY: We will move on to
21 number 10.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE
23 RESPONSE.)
24 THOMAS HANEY: Once again, anything
25 out of place, unusual?
0261
1 PATSY RAMSEY: No, just -- nothing
2 is jumping out at me.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: You can see the
4 trophy laying down?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, yeah.
6 THOMAS HANEY: Does that look
7 unusual now that you have had a better look at
8 it?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: It just seems like I
10 took all of them, but that big one, to the
11 playroom and put them up on the shelf because
12 there was so many of them, and she had them all
13 stacked around here.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: But that was the
15 area --
16 PATSY RAMSEY: There were,
17 presumably it could have been left in there, but
18 (INAUDIBLE) for some reason.
19 THOMAS HANEY: How about number 11.
20 It's taken in a lot of different directions.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: No, nothing unusual.
22 THOMAS HANEY: Number 12?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: There is the pot
24 holder stuff.
25 THOMAS HANEY: So those pot holder
0262
1 things, did that appear to involve --
2 PATSY RAMSEY: She has got
3 (INAUDIBLE).
4 THOMAS HANEY: And that's the thing
5 on the other bed?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
7 THOMAS HANEY: So these aren't like
8 hair ties?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: No, right.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Just for the tape,
11 that's in photo 12 and it has a bunch of little
12 circular bands on the middle of the floor and
13 that's where she sat and was working on some pot
14 holder; so that's not unusual to you?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Uh-hum.
16 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Move on to
17 13.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: That was her hair
19 tie, that little (INAUDIBLE).
20 TRIP DeMUTH: That unusual for them
21 to be on the floor?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
23 (Patsy Ramsey was handed a
24 magnifying glass.)
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No (INAUDIBLE).
0263
1 This piece of paper with the instructions for
2 the pot holder or something.
3 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Did you
4 want -- now that you have the magnifying glass,
5 did you want to go back and look at anything?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, that's all
7 right.
8 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, go on to
9 number 14 then.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you want to take
11 that out?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: No. (INAUDIBLE.)
13 (Patsy Ramsey looking at the
14 photographs, bending down over them.)
15 TRIP DeMUTH: What is your
16 recollection in 14 now to the bag?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks like a
18 little backpack purse, sort of.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Does that look like
20 something JonBenet would have had?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I think she
22 had a little backpack. Kind of shoulder, you
23 know, two shoulder straps on it.
24 THOMAS HANEY: And 15?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: There is a little
0264
1 note or something. I don't know what that is.
2 A little piece of paper.
3 THOMAS HANEY: A piece of paper on
4 the floor between the bed and the dresser
5 drawer?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
7 THOMAS HANEY: I don't know at this
8 point.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: What about these
10 crowns on the floor there, is that unusual? Is
11 that what that is?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, that's a
13 little crown. Well, see, she kept them up here.
14 You know, bumped it or something, they might
15 fall off. Played with them, you know.
16 THOMAS HANEY: Now you're looking
17 at 16?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
19 (INAUDIBLE.)
20 (Patsy Ramsey looking down into the
21 photographs to respond.)
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Nothing.
23 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, go on to
24 number 17. And what is 17? We have moved --
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Into the bathroom.
0265
1 (INAUDIBLE.)
2 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, that's on the
3 shelf behind the --
4 PATSY RAMSEY: On the shelf, yes.
5 Okay.
6 (Patsy Ramsey looking down into the
7 photographs.)
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Looks like a pair of
9 pants, little buckle (INAUDIBLE).
10 THOMAS HANEY: Are they play things
11 or --
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
13 THOMAS HANEY: You don't recall
14 when she last wore them?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
16 THOMAS HANEY: Anything else in 17
17 then, towels or anything that's --
18 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE
19 RESPONSE.)
20 TRIP DeMUTH: This might be the
21 drawer open slightly.
22 THOMAS HANEY: Number 18?
23 TRIP DeMUTH: How about the red
24 item in the upper right-hand corner?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's a
0266
1 little turtleneck, a little cotton turtleneck,
2 and I had wanted her to wear it to the Whites
3 and she didn't want to wear it.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: How did it end up
5 there?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Don't remember. A
7 crown. Oh, God.
8 THOMAS HANEY: It's about 10:25.
9 Do you want to take about a ten-minute break,
10 how's that sound? We will come back.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Crying.) (INAUDIBLE
12 RESPONSE.)
13 (Recess taken.)
14 THOMAS HANEY: We are back on tape
15 and it's about 10:59 a.m.
16 And before we go back to the
17 photographs, on the break, there, we were
18 talking about a letter that you said that -- or
19 a card, whatever it was, that McReynolds sent.
20 Was it a letter, was it a card?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: It was a little
22 letter on stationery.
23 THOMAS HANEY: Personalized
24 stationery or --
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know if it
0267
1 was monogrammed or anything, but it was
2 letter-sized.
3 THOMAS HANEY: Okay.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: It wasn't a card.
5 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, and again do
6 you recall who it was addressed to for sure?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)
8 THOMAS HANEY: Did you say?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Do we have that? It
10 seems to me like I found that somewhere. We
11 might have it. I mean.
12 THOMAS HANEY: We went and got the
13 (INAUDIBLE), (INAUDIBLE).
14 PATSY RAMSEY: All right. I mean
15 the letter, the little letter that Santa Claus
16 sent. I thought I found that and gave it to
17 Jennifer, when we were unpacking.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: Would you look for
19 that for us.
20 ELLIS ARMISTEAD: I would have it.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I
22 think (INAUDIBLE).
23 THOMAS HANEY: In the event that it
24 isn't located, can you take a minute or try to
25 remember anything else or anything you can about
0268
1 what it said? I am not asking verbatim but the
2 general --
3 PATSY RAMSEY: The general gist was
4 that he was about to go in for fairly serious --
5 I was thinking it was open heart surgery or lung
6 surgery or some kind of major surgery. And just
7 wanted us to know that he was taking this bottle
8 of sprinkle dust with him, because that was so
9 meaningful to him, and that he expected that
10 that would be one of the first things he would
11 see when he recovered from surgery. He was
12 going to take that with him.
13 THOMAS HANEY: And it had some
14 special meaning, you said?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, he wore
16 sprinkle dust in his beard, and JonBenet had
17 some around for crafts probably and she gave him
18 a little bottle of this Tinkerbell Glitter Dust
19 or whatever it is, one Christmas when he was at
20 our house.
21 THOMAS HANEY: Would that have been
22 '95?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes. Yeah. And so
24 that touched him, I guess, and he said as much
25 in the letter and said he was going to take that
0269
1 to the hospital with him, and (INAUDIBLE).
2 THOMAS HANEY: This glitter that
3 you talk about, is that -- you mentioned
4 something about doing crafts with it, so is it
5 something that you have a lot of it on hand?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, not this
7 particular -- these particular little things are
8 little Disney -- they are made by Walt Disney,
9 it's that Disney Store and they sell, like it's
10 called Tinkerbell Fairy Dust or something and we
11 had two or three bottles of that around.
12 THOMAS HANEY: Did you still have
13 them around at this point in time?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: You mean --
15 THOMAS HANEY: Christmas of '96?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: This Christmas?
17 THOMAS HANEY: Well --
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No, you said
19 Christmas. I don't remember how many we had,
20 but I don't remember if there are still any,
21 anyway.
22 THOMAS HANEY: Is there something
23 to distinguish that Glitter Fairy Dust or
24 whatever it is from craft glitter?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: You mean like you
0270
1 saw a little couple of different bottles?
2 THOMAS HANEY: Yes.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Don't know if I can
4 or not.
5 THOMAS HANEY: Under --
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Seems like it was a
7 little more iridescent, sort of. And just, you
8 know, kind of golden. (INAUDIBLE.)
9 THOMAS HANEY: The kind of glitter
10 that you -- with your crafts, would it be gold,
11 silver --
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I had some
13 plastic bottles kind of things of craft dust,
14 craft glitter. It would have been like gold, a
15 thing of gold or white or something like that.
16 This was in a little, unusually shaped, almost
17 like a little perfume bottle kind of thing.
18 THOMAS HANEY: But there would have
19 been I think, from what you said, a difference
20 between that and the others, that stuff, this
21 Fairy Dust stuff is more iridescent or --
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I vaguely remember
23 that, I am not sure if, you know, you had a pile
24 of it here and a pile of it there, that I would
25 really say that it was a pretty big difference.
0271
1 THOMAS HANEY: Where would the
2 Fairy Dust stuff have been?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, in the
4 basement, it was a crafts place.
5 THOMAS HANEY: That would have been
6 with the other glitter, have been there also?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, yeah.
8 THOMAS HANEY: So all of it would
9 have been together?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
11 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. And where in
12 the basement were those kept?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: There were some
14 shelves back in behind the train area. If you
15 come down the steps and there is like a landing
16 space here, and go through a door, there is the
17 train room setup there, come back around there,
18 back by the window that broke.
19 THOMAS HANEY: When we come to that
20 portion of the photos, if you will kind of
21 remember to point that out.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
23 THOMAS HANEY: Because (INAUDIBLE).
24 TRIP DeMUTH: That's where you had
25 your glitter?
0272
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, well, like
2 construction paper and glitter and paint and
3 glitter and the glue gun and stuff.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Now, did JonBenet get
5 a jewelry kit, a jewelry-making kit, for
6 Christmas?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
8 TRIP DeMUTH: Did that have glitter
9 in it, if you can recall?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't remember, I
11 can't remember.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: And you, before we
13 took a break, you got a little upset. How you
14 doing, okay now?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I'm okay.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you have any
17 medication during our break or anything like
18 that because you said you brought the Ativan?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, but I didn't
20 take it.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: If you wouldn't mind
22 letting us know if you do.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
24 THOMAS HANEY: I think we left off,
25 finished with number 18, and it's a bathroom, so
0273
1 go to 19.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: This one looks like
3 somebody went to the potty and didn't flush.
4 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, is that out of
5 the ordinary?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Not terribly, no.
7 THOMAS HANEY: Did you -- did you
8 take JonBenet to the bathroom prior to putting
9 her to bed?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
11 THOMAS HANEY: Would she have
12 gotten up during the night and gone to the
13 bathroom?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Possibly.
15 THOMAS HANEY: If she did, would
16 she have flushed?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Not necessarily.
18 THOMAS HANEY: Anything else in
19 number 19?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
21 THOMAS HANEY: I notice that the
22 roll of toilet paper is sit --
23 PATSY RAMSEY: It was not a roll,
24 roll holder in that bathroom.
25 THOMAS HANEY: Was that unusual,
0274
1 was there any reason or --
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No, there and there
3 and there. (INAUDIBLE.)
4 THOMAS HANEY: Was that common
5 throughout the house?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No. When we bought
7 that house, some of the bathrooms had toilet
8 paper holders and some didn't. I mean a lot of
9 little quirky things like that. We had to --
10 THOMAS HANEY: Anything else?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Nothing unusual.
12 THOMAS HANEY: 20.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the bathroom
14 where we kept (INAUDIBLE) and things. I
15 remember things there.
16 THOMAS HANEY: That's behind the
17 tub?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE.) Little
19 shopping bag, I am not sure what's in that.
20 (INAUDIBLE.)
21 THOMAS HANEY: Again, that's not
22 unusual?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
24 THOMAS HANEY: 21?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: That's looking out
0275
1 from her bathroom into her room. These little
2 steps, we don't use, we use these lamps here by
3 the sink.
4 (Patsy Ramsey has her hand in front
5 of her face as she is talking.)
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I am not sure, sure
7 what's in there, but...
8 THOMAS HANEY: It was normally --
9 PATSY RAMSEY: It was normally kept
10 by the sink, because she would stand on it,
11 brush her teeth.
12 THOMAS HANEY: Did she move it
13 around, though, to use it to reach other things
14 that were higher up in her room?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Maybe up on the
17 Christmas tree, an ornament or something?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, it was a
19 little tippy, you know. It would have been
20 pretty tippy on carpet.
21 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. 22, would you
22 try that, please.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: It's the door out to
24 the patio is ajar. Was it like that?
25 TRIP DeMUTH: An officer told me he
0276
1 opened it to take that picture.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, okay. That
3 would typically be closed.
4 THOMAS HANEY: Would it be locked?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe, maybe not. I
6 mean we have had occasions where people have
7 gotten locked out there. So, and she would
8 sometimes go out there and play and what not.
9 And I think she had gotten locked out there one
10 time, so maybe I might have unlocked it to keep
11 that from happening.
12 THOMAS HANEY: Did you ever have a
13 concern with her playing out there on that
14 patio, though?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes. I mean I
16 didn't like her being out there. But you
17 couldn't lock it so that you couldn't get from
18 the inside to the outside. You just pulled down
19 the handle, you could go out. If the door
20 closed behind, then it was locked, then you
21 can't get in.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: So if you operate the
23 door handle from inside, you know, sometimes
24 when you operate a door handle from inside it
25 unlocks the door and you have to relock it when
0277
1 you leave?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, right.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Would this one stay
4 locked after you operated the door handle or
5 would it unlock when you operated the door
6 handle?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.
8 THOMAS HANEY: 23.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: (Mumbling into
10 hand.) (INAUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
11 THOMAS HANEY: That's just that
12 door standing open?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
14 THOMAS HANEY: Number 24.
15 TRIP DeMUTH: Some of those items
16 belong to police officers, such as the notepad
17 and the film cannister.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh. (INAUDIBLE.)
19 (Mumbling.) Are these pictures that somebody
20 took?
21 TRIP DeMUTH: I believe so. I
22 think they are Polaroid.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
24 THOMAS HANEY: 25?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: That's out on the
0278
1 little deck.
2 THOMAS HANEY: And that's outside
3 the door we described in 21 and 22?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: There is nothing
6 unusual on the patio in 25, 26 or 27?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum. I moved
8 this out there from the playroom.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: That's the
10 mulit-colored jungle gym thing?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: So that's where it
13 belongs?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I put it out
15 there.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: 28 is the ironing
17 board again?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
19 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. 29.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: That's the
21 (INAUDIBLE). That's where I was packing
22 clothes, you know, to go on the different trips.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: And you're pointing
24 to the bed?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: The bed.
0279
1 TRIP DeMUTH: What about this chair
2 over here, what's on that chair?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks like a
4 (INAUDIBLE).
5 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you want to pull
6 that out?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Can we angle that
8 or -- (handing).
9 TRIP DeMUTH: What did you take? I
10 mean the suitcases were on top of the bed.
11 Where did you get those suitcases from, where
12 were they stored?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, where were they
14 stored? Usually up in the bin in my dressing
15 room, those open shelves, they would be right
16 there. You know, I would work from them to pack
17 on the bed.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you keep anything
19 underneath that bed? My wife stores things
20 under our bed.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't have
22 anything under there. Get them out of the way
23 sometimes. Could have been anything under
24 there. I don't know.
25 THOMAS HANEY: This dust ruffle?
0280
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it's not
2 hanging very straight right there. You know, it
3 should be falling a little more smoothly.
4 (INAUDIBLE.)
5 THOMAS HANEY: What did you say?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I say I am wondering
7 if somebody was under that bed. That was --
8 THOMAS HANEY: Did you go under
9 that bed for anything when you were packing?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I can't
11 remember. I mean, I never had a habit of
12 putting things under that bed. Because it
13 was -- it sat low, kind of low board, you
14 couldn't get much under there.
15 THOMAS HANEY: But that's John
16 Andrew's room?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: When he was there.
18 You know, we just referred to it as his room.
19 THOMAS HANEY: Sure, I understand.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the room I
21 recuperated from when I came out.
22 THOMAS HANEY: Do you know when
23 John Andrew last would have stayed there?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Not for sure.
25 THOMAS HANEY: Did he store other
0281
1 things there?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I know he had some
3 of his things, some college, at the house, but I
4 really can't tell you where they were or what it
5 was.
6 THOMAS HANEY: But he would have
7 had things of his in the house?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
9 THOMAS HANEY: But you just can't
10 say what for sure would have been in that room?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
12 THOMAS HANEY: Did he keep clothes
13 or --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't think he
15 had many clothes.
16 THOMAS HANEY: Speaking of clothes,
17 you're packing for this trip in that photo and
18 in 30, and that's where, for the Big Red Boat?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
20 THOMAS HANEY: So and we talked
21 yesterday, you were going to come back on
22 Saturday from Charlevoix, Sunday leave in the
23 morning for the Big Red Boat.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding.)
25 THOMAS HANEY: Was that getting to
0282
1 be a bit much, Christmas, and I know you do
2 Christmas, you had Christmas trees everywhere,
3 lots of decorations, pretty big time of the year
4 and the trip the next day and the Big Red Boat
5 birthday and everything else. Was that
6 getting -- was it a little hectic?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, we -- that's
8 what we do, we go away a lot, it's not terribly
9 unusual. I mean, I am used to kind of packing
10 for different places, you know. Not anything
11 unusual, different.
12 THOMAS HANEY: Do you see anything
13 unusual in photograph 30?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I use that bed with
15 all the clothes on, so. There were several, a
16 lot of clothes, you know.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you recover in
18 this room when you had cancer?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you ever sleep in
21 this room since or more recent times, closer to
22 Christmas?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't like to go
0283
1 in there too much.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: Bad memories?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Bad memories.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
5 THOMAS HANEY: 31.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: We had run a
7 videotape out there. I wonder why those are out
8 there. (INAUDIBLE.)
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you keep
10 videotapes in that room?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: There was some
12 videos in this cabinet here, mostly ones that
13 were older, you know, that the kids used more
14 when they were really young, with Barney and
15 those kind of things. I don't know why those
16 would be on the floor.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Were you going to
18 take videos with you to Charlevoix or to the Big
19 Red Boat for any reason?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean, we may
21 have wanted to take some to Charlevoix, but
22 typically the ones that the kids had watched,
23 you know, more currently, would be in their
24 room.
25 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Other than
0284
1 the videos, anything unusual in picture 31?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No. See, this is --
3 this is the suitcase I was packing and this is
4 on the bed.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: Yes. What's that,
6 the --
7 PATSY RAMSEY: That's where I kept
8 summer clothes, you know, when I transitioned.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: And you're referring
10 to the large --
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Tupperware trunk
12 kind of thing. Green. Probably digging in
13 there looking for shorts and beach wear, things
14 that I wanted to wear.
15 THOMAS HANEY: 32?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: That's the bathroom
17 to my bedroom.
18 THOMAS HANEY: Is that normally
19 used by anybody?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Not on a day-to-day
21 basis, not really. I don't know why the drawers
22 would have been out, but...
23 THOMAS HANEY: What's normally
24 stored in those?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that's usually
0285
1 where I kept my supplies for my -- when I was
2 taking chemo, when I had my shots and my little
3 alcohol wipes, thermometers, and all that kind
4 of stuff. And I could have been looking
5 through, looking for a thermometer to take on
6 vacation.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: What's in the draw
8 below that one? There are two drawers open?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, I
10 don't know. I just hadn't used it, all that
11 area, that much.
12 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Number 33.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the shot of
14 the bedroom, looking out through the door to her
15 door.
16 THOMAS HANEY: Anything unusual or
17 out of place or --
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
19 THOMAS HANEY: 34?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I just can't imagine
21 why I would leave those open if I had done --
22 THOMAS HANEY: The drawers that you
23 were talking about earlier?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
25 VOICE: That's 34?
0286
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you have syringes
3 in there?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I would have at one
5 time. Now, whether I had any in there now, I
6 don't remember. Seems like I got rid of all
7 that stuff. With kids around. I don't know. I
8 just wasn't in there that much. I can't tell
9 you.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Could the kids get in
11 there? Play in this room?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Not really. It was
13 kind of a -- they didn't do it too much.
14 THOMAS HANEY: They kind of
15 consider it --
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
17 THOMAS HANEY: -- off-limits?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: It was just kind of
19 back out of the way and nobody really --
20 TRIP DeMUTH: How about John?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Big John?
22 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-hum.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: I must have just
24 used it for folding clothes and packing and, you
25 know.
0287
1 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. 35?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the little
3 hallway down -- you turn left, it goes into the
4 playroom. (INAUDIBLE. )
5 THOMAS HANEY: 36.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Is this where you
7 moved the trophies to?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, right.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: This is a picture of
10 what?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: The playroom, that's
12 the playroom.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Does it look normal?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, pretty much in
15 a mess.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: 37?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: That's just another
18 shot of the same room. That door fell off, it
19 was off its hinges. Something was the matter
20 with that door, so that's why -- having it put
21 back up.
22 THOMAS HANEY: So that's not
23 unusual?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
25 THOMAS HANEY: 38?
0288
1 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the bathroom
2 Burke used. (Speaking with her hand in front of
3 her face, looking into photographs.)
4 (INAUDIBLE.)
5 THOMAS HANEY: 39?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the guest
7 room, where mother used to stay.
8 THOMAS HANEY: And do you recall
9 when she last stayed there?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, God, no. Not
11 exactly. I kept all her pageant clothes in that
12 closet. Costumes and stuff and that kind of
13 thing.
14 THOMAS HANEY: And so you were in
15 and out of that room?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, I always used
17 that room.
18 THOMAS HANEY: Did anybody else use
19 it, anybody stay there?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Not in recent times.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Patsy, I could be
22 wrong about this, but I think I read a long time
23 ago that there may have been a portfolio or
24 something, that kind of thing?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
0289
1 TRIP DeMUTH: That would be normal,
2 if that's true?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, right. As a
4 matter of fact, I ran upstairs, at one time they
5 asked me for a picture, and when they were --
6 when everybody was getting -- whatever they were
7 doing, you know, they needed a picture of her.
8 And I went upstairs and got the portfolios out
9 of the closet and probably laid it on the bed
10 and looked through it and seen a picture of her
11 in this cute T-shirt, you know.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Kind of where I put
14 the pageant stuff.
15 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Anything else
16 in 39?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
18 THOMAS HANEY: Number 40.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: That's Burke's room,
20 that's the entry to Burke's room. This is where
21 if the kids were there that day, JonBenet was
22 sitting in here making a little jewelry thing.
23 That's a little jewelry kind of case thing and
24 jewelry art thing.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. The pink --
0290
1 PATSY RAMSEY: The pink box.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: -- is the jewelry
3 thing?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Jewelry.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: Does that look
6 normal?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes. I remember.
8 That's why I kind of looked down at the floor
9 where they were playing.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Looks like a train
11 set or something?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, a train set.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: But that's all
14 normal?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
16 THOMAS HANEY: It's not confined to
17 the train room?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No, it's not. I
19 think he had tried to bring it up to go around
20 this tree.
21 THOMAS HANEY: 41?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: That's (INAUDIBLE).
23 Who's that?
24 THOMAS HANEY: That's one of the
25 officers.
0291
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh.
2 THOMAS HANEY: What have you told
3 Burke about the murder?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: To date?
5 THOMAS HANEY: To date.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, just that we
7 are going to try to find out who did this to
8 JonBenet. Find out, you know, I haven't told
9 him anything about how she was murdered or the
10 details like that.
11 THOMAS HANEY: Sure, not graphic,
12 but --
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
14 THOMAS HANEY: -- what details
15 would he know or had you talked with him about?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: To be quite honest,
17 we really haven't talked with him much about it.
18 It's too hard, you know, it's hard to talk
19 about.
20 THOMAS HANEY: Has he volunteered
21 information?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
23 THOMAS HANEY: Has he had
24 questions?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)
0292
1 THOMAS HANEY: Never "what's going
2 to happen, who did it"?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
4 THOMAS HANEY: How about we talked
5 yesterday about him being harassed or followed
6 by some of the bigger kids. Doesn't that spark
7 something in him to say something?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you would
9 think he would, but he doesn't. He kind of, you
10 know, keeps with his little computer games and
11 just kind of doesn't want to go there.
12 THOMAS HANEY: You mentioned too
13 about some of the newspapers, some of the Globe
14 or similar papers, at the check-out stands at
15 the store or something?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
17 THOMAS HANEY: I think there was
18 some mention that he was there, saw it?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
20 THOMAS HANEY: What did he say
21 about that?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: We were at -- we
23 were one time -- it was right before school
24 started. We were at Target in Atlanta and
25 buying pencils and all that stuff, and there it
0293
1 was at the check-out, his eye level. And he
2 said something horrible, and he kind of
3 glanced -- I saw him glance at it and glance
4 away. And, you know, put my arm around him,
5 said, honey, they just make up lies and stories
6 about -- we just can't pay any attention.
7 THOMAS HANEY: Do you remember --
8 PATSY RAMSEY: He didn't say
9 anything.
10 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Still --
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)
12 THOMAS HANEY: -- do you remember
13 what that photo or headline was?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Not -- I can't --
15 not specifically.
16 THOMAS HANEY: Did he ever mention
17 getting up at any time during the night?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
19 THOMAS HANEY: So he slept through
20 until -- I believe it was John that ultimately
21 got him up to take him to the Fernies?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, to my
23 knowledge.
24 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. There was
25 mention while we are talking about that, there
0294
1 was mention of a situation where he apparently
2 hit JonBenet with a golf club up at Charlevoix?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
4 THOMAS HANEY: Could you tell us
5 about that?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: He was taking a
7 practice swing, he was just a little guy, he was
8 two or three, or two and a half, and he was --
9 it was our first summer there, how young they
10 were there.
11 THOMAS HANEY: About what year
12 would that have been?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: That was '93, I
14 believe. And he, you know, he was out there
15 with his little Whiffle ball, golf balls, and
16 she walked up behind and he kind of clipped her
17 right on the cheek. And she screamed bloody
18 murder.
19 And I jumped down off the porch and
20 grabbed her and, you know, slammed ice on it. I
21 thought he got her in the eye, and went down
22 there to the emergency room and, you know, the
23 doctor looked and it was just, you know, that
24 socket around your eye, protects your eye there,
25 so she had a good old black eye for a while.
0295
1 She had a little, I don't remember which eye it
2 was, little abrasion. I took her to a plastic
3 surgeon just to see if there was anything to do
4 to help there. He said it will go away. You
5 know.
6 THOMAS HANEY: So that was just an
7 accidental --
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. You know, he
9 wasn't used to looking around and she walked
10 right up behind him, so --
11 THOMAS HANEY: Okay.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: And who was the
13 doctor?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, somebody there
15 at the emergency room in Charlevoix.
16 THOMAS HANEY: And that's one of
17 the things, we are trying to work some of this
18 in as we go through the photos, obviously, but
19 have you seen changes in Burke since the
20 incident?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, he's grown like
22 a weed. I think he's a little more cautious,
23 you know, he was kind of -- kind of
24 (INAUDIBLE) -- cautious, you know, looking
25 around, see if anybody is parked where they
0296
1 shouldn't be parked. You know, locks the door
2 when he comes in and goes out. You know, those
3 kind of things.
4 THOMAS HANEY: How about with the
5 moving and all of that, has that caused some
6 problems for him, change of schools?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. And I have
8 been in touch with the counselors and the
9 teachers and everybody, alert to this. And they
10 said that -- they are remarkably surprised at
11 how well he is doing. He just makes friends and
12 gets good grades.
13 THOMAS HANEY: So his adjustment's
14 been pretty --
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Been pretty good.
16 THOMAS HANEY: You mentioned I
17 think when I asked you yesterday, had you seen
18 an interview from last week with Burke. You
19 said no?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
21 THOMAS HANEY: There were like
22 three days, and the first two days were pretty
23 basic questions, but on the third day, there
24 were questions where the discussion was around
25 JonBenet and the death. And I am no
0297
1 psychologist, psychiatrist, but immediately
2 noticed a change in Burke and his demeanor.
3 He's curled up on the chair something like this,
4 not sitting like this, but a chair like this,
5 and he's half in a fetal position and it seems
6 to be a real struggle, a real difficult time.
7 I am wondering if you had noticed
8 anything similar, any changes?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I may have --
10 I have had him in therapy just for this reason.
11 So that, I mean, the therapist explained to me
12 that -- that Burke may be trying to hold it
13 together and be real strong for John and I, you
14 know. And because I was saying it seemed to me
15 like he needs to let it out, you know.
16 He said, well, children handle
17 things differently, you know, than adults. And
18 he doesn't -- he thinks Burke is fine. So I
19 have to just take him at -- I respect his
20 opinion, Dr. Jaffe.
21 But no, I have not -- I have not
22 directly, you know, noticed anything.
23 THOMAS HANEY: Does it seem like he
24 knows more than he's saying, and obviously he's
25 not saying much?
0298
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
2 THOMAS HANEY: Like he's keeping
3 something in, like something?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I think he
5 does, you know, in our conversations when our
6 friends call and when, you know, he has
7 confrontations with the media and I am sure all
8 that affects him. As far as something about who
9 did it, I don't think he knows. I mean, he
10 would say.
11 THOMAS HANEY: Has that -- is that
12 something that you have asked the -- Dr. Jaffe
13 to explore?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know if I
15 have directly asked him that. I don't --
16 THOMAS HANEY: And you know that's
17 a thought?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Well, I knew
19 that's -- I was presuming that's what they were
20 doing last week, kind of seeing if he remembered
21 anything.
22 THOMAS HANEY: And they were, yeah,
23 but you know Dr. Jaffe and he works with him on
24 a fairly regular basis?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
0299
1 THOMAS HANEY: How often?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, every three
3 weeks, maybe.
4 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. But a lot
5 more than --
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Sure, yes. Quite --
7 sure. I am sure he is alert to that. You know.
8 If the thing would come up --
9 THOMAS HANEY: But maybe if it's an
10 appropriate thing for him to pursue and maybe at
11 least touch base with him about it?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Uh-hum.
13 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Anything else
14 on those photos, 41, 42?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: They made Burke's
16 bed, that's unusual.
17 THOMAS HANEY: I think there may be
18 some explanation for that, but he normally
19 wouldn't do that?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No. He still
21 doesn't.
22 THOMAS HANEY: Is -- okay. That's
23 never a part of his morning routine?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Trying to be.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: You're looking at 42
0300
1 now, right?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I was just looking
3 at this white stuff, you know. (INAUDIBLE.) I
4 see that little --
5 THOMAS HANEY: Yeah. That's an
6 over-write, some sort of a blur.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: That's a toy box.
8 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, toy box, so it
9 looks like a pen or something like that?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: How is his door left
12 when he is sleeping in his room, or how did you
13 used to leave it when he went to bed, Burke?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Usually just ajar a
15 little bit.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: And we talked or you
17 talked a lot about night lights with JonBenet
18 last time. What about for Burke, did he sleep
19 with any lights?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, no, not in his
21 room, but I usually leave the bathroom light on.
22 Yeah. Like this one.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: In picture 38?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
25 THOMAS HANEY: Are you ready to go
0301
1 on to 43 now?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
3 THOMAS HANEY: Okay.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: That's a shot from
5 Burke's room down the hall to the playroom.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Nothing unusual, or
7 anything unusual there?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't make out
9 what that is. A toy or something. A little --
10 TRIP DeMUTH: There we go, maybe
11 that (handing magnifying glass).
12 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE.)
13 (Looking into photographs.)
14 THOMAS HANEY: And where --
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Looks like kind of
16 the top of the stairs, the top of wooden stairs
17 coming up from the front foyer.
18 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Does it look
19 like a present or --
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I don't know.
21 It's open like a book or something.
22 THOMAS HANEY: 44 now.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Looks like the
24 stairwell up to our room from the laundry room.
25 THOMAS HANEY: So that's where you
0302
1 screamed for John?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, right.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: As shown in picture
4 44?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: 44, uh-hum.
6 THOMAS HANEY: And it would have
7 been from about that location?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
9 THOMAS HANEY: About where it's
10 taken from?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
12 THOMAS HANEY: And 45?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: That's going up to
14 the top of the steps. Side room.
15 THOMAS HANEY: 46 was your room?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: 47? Everything seem
18 okay?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: 48, what is that?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: That's John's study,
22 back --
23 TRIP DeMUTH: To the right?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Where you turn
25 right, uh-hum.
0303
1 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you know what this
2 is? It's hard to see, in the back lower corner?
3 Does that look like his bathrobe?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. Looks
5 like a sweater or something.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Would it be unusual
7 for John to put his bathrobe down on the floor
8 in that area?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Because he
10 usually hangs it up in his bathroom. Unless,
11 you know, he was starting to put it on when I
12 screamed for him and he dropped it or something.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: What are we on, 49?
14 What is that, Patsy?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: This is my closet.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Still look normal?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Yep.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: What about the shoes
19 in that picture?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: What do you mean?
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Is that how you left
22 them?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably. Just kind
24 of thrown in?
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Yeah.
0304
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. It wouldn't
2 be unusual.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
4 THOMAS HANEY: Do you own any
5 Hi-Tech (phonetic) footwear?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
7 THOMAS HANEY: How about John?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
9 THOMAS HANEY: Anybody in the
10 family that you know of has it?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
12 THOMAS HANEY: How about a fur
13 coat, did you have fur coats?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, I had fur
15 coats.
16 THOMAS HANEY: Was it at the house
17 or in storage or --
18 PATSY RAMSEY: It was at the house,
19 black mink.
20 THOMAS HANEY: Mink, okay.
21 How about boots, gloves, jackets,
22 other things that would have had fur on it?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: There is a leather
24 jacket that has a fur lining, men's leather
25 jacket. It was John's. It was reversible.
0305
1 THOMAS HANEY: Do you know what
2 type of fur that would have been?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it was like
4 real low cut, black shiny pile.
5 THOMAS HANEY: Was it real fur?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
7 THOMAS HANEY: Real fur? Okay.
8 And he had gloves, hats?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, I had a black
10 mink like muffler kind of hat, like a ring kind
11 of thing you wear, two balls hanging down,
12 earmuffs kind of thing. Two balls hanging down.
13 THOMAS HANEY: That was mink also?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum. I had a
15 pair of after-ski boots, black, I don't know
16 what kind of fur it was. Technica or something
17 like that. It had like a little Indian braiding
18 around it or something, black fringe. It was
19 kind of, I don't know, leopard fur kind of
20 thing.
21 THOMAS HANEY: Was it artificial?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I think it's
23 real, but it was probably mink or something.
24 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Any others?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Let's see. What
0306
1 kind of --
2 THOMAS HANEY: These after-ski
3 boots, did you ski?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Not very much.
5 THOMAS HANEY: Why not?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Dangerous.
7 THOMAS HANEY: Do you recall
8 purchasing some Hi-Tech boots at Pepe's up in
9 Vail in the summer of '96?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)
11 THOMAS HANEY: Do you recall being
12 in Vail in the summer of '96?
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Or even in the fall.
14 THOMAS HANEY: Or the last time you
15 were there?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 THOMAS HANEY: Did you ever ski
18 there or visit Vail much?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: We went up to
20 (INAUDIBLE) to his cottage up, up that way
21 somewhere like -- but it was like, it wasn't in
22 part of Vail or Beaver Creek or anything. On
23 up.
24 THOMAS HANEY: West of there,
25 Cordillera (phonetic), past there?
0307
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, Cordillera,
2 even past Cordillera. We went up there
3 sometimes, but I can't remember when it was.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you go shopping
5 in Vail?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No. No.
7 THOMAS HANEY: So Pepe's
8 wouldn't --
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know Pepe's.
10 THOMAS HANEY: I think it's kind of
11 a ski sport place, that there is one in Vail.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: It's right across the
13 bridge as you go into Vail. That little covered
14 walk.
15 THOMAS HANEY: Covered walkways.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember
17 that.
18 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Let's see, we
19 are still on 49.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: Let me ask a
21 question. Did you have some hiking, I don't
22 know what you call them exactly, these hiking
23 boot-type things, apres-ski, I don't know what
24 you call them. Sort of a cross between a tennis
25 shoe and a hiking boot sort of. Did you have
0308
1 anything like that?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Any sort of hiking
4 boots at all?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: These are sort of
7 fashionable. People used to use for hiking and
8 all that.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Anybody in the family
11 have footwear like that?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: John Andrew, you
13 know, hiked. Melinda probably did.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: How about John or
15 Burke or JonBenet?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: JonBenet had some
17 little, little sort of suede -- actually, they
18 were Burke's. They were Stride-Rite, little
19 Birken (phonetic) kind of, with a little kind of
20 red tie. You know. Burke had, you know, kind
21 of boots, kind of shoes, like kind of -- they
22 might be suede or something, kind of thing.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: Have you ever heard
24 of the Hi-Tech brand footwear before?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I have heard that,
0309
1 this name is, you know, has come up. But I --
2 TRIP DeMUTH: Since JonBenet's
3 death?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, I read it.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: How about prior to
6 JonBenet's death?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Never heard of
8 it.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Never heard of it
10 prior to JonBenet's death?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Anytime I go in
12 the shoe store I kind of look and see, you know,
13 if there is a Hi-Tech.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: Have you ever found
15 any?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: So have you ever
18 seen --
19 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean, is that
20 like a brand name or is that a description?
21 TRIP DeMUTH: It's a brand name.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Brand name?
23 (Shaking head.)
24 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Like Adidas would be
0310
1 a brand name? No.
2 THOMAS HANEY: Anything else in 49?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
4 THOMAS HANEY: In 50, that's
5 another shot of that ironing board?
6 TRIP DeMUTH: They do that for
7 every roll, they put that in, identifying the
8 roll. (Mumbling.) (INAUDIBLE.)
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I wonder where the
10 little red suit is, her little red -- that
11 little jumpsuit. Which I don't see a picture in
12 this. That was that morning.
13 THOMAS HANEY: Right, and I think
14 we will come to that, yes. Go on to 51.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Staircase, you know,
16 through the --
17 THOMAS HANEY: Yeah, just looking
18 through that --
19 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE
20 RESPONSE.)
21 THOMAS HANEY: 52?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Looks like a plastic
23 bag with clothes in it. That might have been
24 the bag going to the lake. This looks like a
25 Christmas sweater in there.
0311
1 TRIP DeMUTH: And when you say
2 "going to the lake," what does that mean?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: The morning of the
4 26th we were going up to the -- we call --
5 TRIP DeMUTH: To Charlevoix?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: We call it the lake,
7 yeah.
8 THOMAS HANEY: 52 shows the spiral
9 stairs coming down?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum, right.
11 THOMAS HANEY: And not to look too
12 much, but would you just indicate which step
13 that note would have been on?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Around there
15 (indicating).
16 THOMAS HANEY: You indicated the
17 second step from the floor?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
19 THOMAS HANEY: And that laid out
20 left to right, pages 1, 2 and 3?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
22 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. So as you
23 come down, and we talked about this yesterday,
24 we didn't have this, so you get to the what, the
25 third -- when do you see it?
0312
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably on the way
2 down, you know, you know.
3 THOMAS HANEY: So then you come
4 closer and then how do you --
5 PATSY RAMSEY: I kind of stepped
6 around it and stepped on them and turned around
7 to see what it was.
8 THOMAS HANEY: So you just stepped
9 around it onto the second step or --
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
11 THOMAS HANEY: Okay.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: What do you mean by
13 "stepped around it"?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I am sure if I
15 would have put my foot on a piece of paper on
16 the carpeted steps and for fear of flying, so --
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Because it's laid 1,
18 2, 3 across that step, right?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: So the paper pretty
21 much taking up the whole step or --
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, I don't
23 remember leaping from 3 to 1, so I imagine I
24 kind of -- kind of got a foothold and went on
25 down past it. I just can't imagine that I would
0313
1 have stepped right on it for fear of flying out
2 from under me.
3 THOMAS HANEY: So somehow you
4 probably stepped on that second step, tiptoed
5 around it?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
7 THOMAS HANEY: That's what you're
8 trying --
9 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, I turned back
11 around to see what it was.
12 THOMAS HANEY: Now, did you
13 normally come down that way in the morning?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
15 THOMAS HANEY: How do you normally
16 go back up?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Same way.
18 THOMAS HANEY: And I think you
19 indicated somewhere before that a lot of times
20 you would leave things --
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
22 THOMAS HANEY: -- on the steps
23 there?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
25 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Like -- okay.
0314
1 Remind you, hey, next time you're going up, take
2 this up. Who would know or who would have seen
3 this practice?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Leaving the
5 staircase a lot and leaving things sitting out?
6 THOMAS HANEY: Yes.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the
8 housekeeper, certainly.
9 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Who else?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: My mother, you know,
11 I see her a lot. Suzanne. I mean anybody that
12 was in the house.
13 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, on a regular
14 basis though?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, yeah.
16 THOMAS HANEY: So somebody pretty
17 familiar?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. Because I
19 wondered that -- I wondered, well, why didn't
20 they leave it on the first step, because I very
21 likely would have noticed it.
22 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. So, who you
23 know, because I would guess, maybe it is a
24 practice, you know, how would somebody choose to
25 leave it there?
0315
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Good question.
2 THOMAS HANEY: But somebody pretty
3 familiar or just lucky?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe.
5 THOMAS HANEY: But if it was --
6 it's somebody who was around your house
7 regularly?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: They would know that
9 this was the staircase we most frequently used.
10 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, that that's
11 your habit?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Would they know
14 that's where you leave papers and what-have-you
15 to take upstairs? How often did you do that?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, pretty often.
17 I mean, John would come in from the garage, from
18 work, and leave things on the bar and then from
19 there, if he needed to take it to his desk and
20 stack 'em there and take 'em on up, you know.
21 We just left a lot of things there to be brought
22 up, coming down.
23 THOMAS HANEY: Anything else in
24 that photo, so the bag, the plastic bag?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I thought I had left
0316
1 that at the top of the stairs. Now, I don't
2 know, somebody moved it down there, or if it
3 fell down or --
4 THOMAS HANEY: Could you have been
5 carrying it down that morning?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Could have. And I
7 could have just stopped right there and let it
8 down and read the note. That's possible.
9 THOMAS HANEY: And then you pointed
10 also to this, what, red and white item?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it's almost
12 like a Christmas decorated sweater.
13 THOMAS HANEY: Was that something
14 that you had intended to take on the plane?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
16 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. How about
17 this little table here in the hallway?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Kind of catch-all
19 stuff.
20 THOMAS HANEY: Among the things
21 that you put on this, what were they?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, this looks
23 like a book Priscilla gave me. I mean she was
24 in recently. I think it's called like "Simple
25 Abundance" or something like that. I don't know
0317
1 what that (INAUDIBLE), kind of that multicolor.
2 (Handed magnifying glass.) I can't tell.
3 THOMAS HANEY: We talked about a
4 multi-colored kind of --
5 PATSY RAMSEY: This also had little
6 eyeglasses on it or something.
7 THOMAS HANEY: Kind of pastel
8 colors?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I can't --
10 THOMAS HANEY: Excuse me
11 (coughing).
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know it
13 (INAUDIBLE).
14 THOMAS HANEY: Is there anything in
15 particular that's normally kept on that --
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No, it's just kind
17 of a catch-all when you come in off the -- this
18 looks like -- that black thing there looks like
19 a Daytimer or something.
20 THOMAS HANEY: Would that be yours
21 or John's?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: It might have been
23 John's.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you have any
25 other plastic bags you were taking to the lake
0318
1 besides that one you see at the bottom of that
2 spiral staircase? Was that going to be all that
3 you carried?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, back here
5 there is a door, glass door that went out to the
6 patio. It seemed like I stacked some Christmas
7 stuff, like shopping bags with Christmas
8 presents in it. Just, you know, remember to
9 take that going out the door.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Any other clothes,
11 though, besides --
12 PATSY RAMSEY: No, there wasn't
13 much. I wasn't taking much. We weren't going
14 there long, and maybe wear the same thing a
15 couple of days.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: How long were you
17 going to be there, do you remember?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Six or seven --
19 26th, 27th, and back -- I think back the 28th to
20 go on the boat on the 29th. I can't remember
21 when we were supposed to leave on the boat. I
22 remember we were going to be on the boat on my
23 birthday, on the 29th.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: You were going to be
25 on the boat on your birthday, on the 29th?
0319
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. Whether we
2 were going to get there that day or -- I am sure
3 we can find the reservations or the tickets and
4 figure the thing out. So we weren't going to be
5 on the boat very long, a couple of days.
6 THOMAS HANEY: Before we break for
7 lunch, and maybe this would be -- you were going
8 to the lake and then the cruise.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
10 THOMAS HANEY: How about earlier
11 that year, I know you did a lot of traveling.
12 Where did you visit? What -- let's start out --
13 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, Thanksgiving
15 we were in Atlanta.
16 THOMAS HANEY: How long were you
17 there, approximately?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know,
19 four days maybe.
20 THOMAS HANEY: Okay.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: And then we were up
22 at the lake all summer.
23 THOMAS HANEY: That's your normal
24 routine to go up?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Stay to about --
0320
1 about the day before school starts.
2 THOMAS HANEY: Do you normally go
3 up to the lake, let me try to imagine, I don't
4 know, was it frozen in December?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Usually. Yeah.
6 This is the first time we were going to spend
7 any Christmas holidays there.
8 THOMAS HANEY: So the lake is just
9 normally summer?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
11 THOMAS HANEY: While you're up at
12 the lake, do you travel anywhere from there?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Sometimes
14 Mackinaw Island. Of course John would take a
15 sailboat around the (INAUDIBLE) Islands, in the
16 sailboat races, you know. If I could see my
17 Daytimer.
18 THOMAS HANEY: Do you still have
19 that?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't have it, no.
21 I have to find out where it is.
22 THOMAS HANEY: Could you maybe make
23 that available?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably.
25 THOMAS HANEY: We, you.
0321
1 PATRICK BURKE: That was made
2 available to the Boulder Police Department.
3 THOMAS HANEY: We photocopied it.
4 PATRICK BURKE: Extensively. In
5 fact, they held it for an extra week beyond when
6 they said they would give it back and copied it
7 six ways from Sunday, so I am sure you guys --
8 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
9 PATRICK BURKE: -- can get a copy
10 of it.
11 THOMAS HANEY: Would all of your
12 trips, vacations or whatever, would that all be
13 listed in there in some manner?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: If it's anywhere, it
15 probably would be. Mine and/or John's.
16 THOMAS HANEY: Do you recall, say
17 1996, did you travel outside of the country?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't -- I don't
19 think so. I don't remember. Oh, seems like we
20 were in Mexico, we went to a beach down there.
21 Took the children. Mazatlan. And that would
22 have been in, I know it was hot down there, so I
23 don't know when it would have been. But the six
24 of us went. And the kids had never been to
25 Europe, so we wouldn't have gone there with
0322
1 them.
2 THOMAS HANEY: In the United
3 States, now, you normally went to Charlevoix and
4 up in that area, Atlanta and Colorado?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
6 THOMAS HANEY: Are there, do you go
7 to California regularly --
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, we went up to
9 Maine I think sometime, because John was having
10 a boat built up in Maine. We went up there from
11 the little lake, I believe. (INAUDIBLE.) I
12 don't know, just one of these trips, you know.
13 THOMAS HANEY: How about had you
14 ever, that year, last year or so, had you
15 traveled then to Louisiana or --
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 THOMAS HANEY: -- recently?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: I have a couple of
20 questions before we break. You had a notepad
21 that you wrote phone messages on, right, and
22 John had his own notepad that he wrote his own
23 messages on; is that right? Is my understanding
24 correct?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know if I
0323
1 had mine and his and then notepads and stacking
2 and sticky pads and stuff like that.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you have a
4 notepad that you would write messages on? I
5 take down notes, meeting somebody someplace.
6 That kind of thing?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Not one particular
8 notepad. I am not that organized unfortunately.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Where did you keep --
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, there was kind
11 of a little -- right about here there was the
12 door to the kitchen and then this is the kitchen
13 and a little desk kind of area there. With just
14 mumble-jumble paperwork.
15 TRIP DeMUTH: So that's the phone
16 you would primarily use?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. And could we
19 talk a little bit more about the ransom note
20 here.
21 THOMAS HANEY: Sure.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you mind pulling
23 that out? If you could spread that out. There
24 was something I was confused about. Let's
25 spread it out 1, 2, 3 like it was on the steps.
0324
1 Now, you had made a comment about reading only
2 like the first paragraph or so when you first
3 saw it, right?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: And then there was
6 another time when you had read about "don't call
7 the police," right?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: And I think -- can
10 you show me where that was?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Right here.
12 (Mumbling, reading note.)
13 TRIP DeMUTH: So that's kind of in
14 the middle there, the second page?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: When did you read
17 that portion?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I think when John
19 had it down on the floor there and in that back
20 hallway. You know, I was kind of glancing at
21 it. Over his shoulder, sort of picked that out.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. When was that
23 in relationship to calling the police?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: That was probably
25 just a couple of seconds before. You know,
0325
1 something like because it says don't do it and
2 call (INAUDIBLE).
3 TRIP DeMUTH: How did you get to
4 that portion of the note? Did you read the
5 entire thing?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, no. I couldn't,
7 I just couldn't look at it. I mean I got to
8 this place where my daughter was missing, I went
9 upstairs, she was missing and I remember looking
10 at this, looking, and then I was like, you know,
11 kind of glanced at it.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: So it was -- how did
13 you get -- so tell me how you got to that one
14 portion there about not calling the --
15 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
16 PATSY RAMSEY: But it popped out.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: And that was seconds
18 before you called the police?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: Let me see if I have
21 anything else.
22 You would take messages at the
23 kitchen phone. Did you have writing materials?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, there was lots
25 of pens and --
0326
1 TRIP DeMUTH: Where were those at?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Like this, you know,
3 a couple of jars with writing things.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Tom, do you have
5 anything else on that?
6 THOMAS HANEY: Just one quick one.
7 Trip mentioned this area that said don't call
8 the FBI or the police. And you said you were
9 reading it over John's shoulder at that point
10 and you said --
11 PATSY RAMSEY: You know, I was sort
12 of like had the phone, kind of glancing down at
13 it. I saw that and I said, you know, it says
14 don't call anybody.
15 THOMAS HANEY: Was there any more
16 discussion than that, or you said that, he said
17 that, and you called?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum. That's
19 about it.
20 THOMAS HANEY: That was it?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
22 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, how about a
23 little break. It's -- I have 12:07. We can go
24 off the tape.
25 (END OF TAPE NUMBER 2.)
0327
1 ________________________________________________________
2
3 IN THE MATTER OF:
4
5
6 INTERVIEW WITH PATSY RAMSEY
7
8 ________________________________________________________
9
10
11
12 TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW
13
14 VOLUME 3 OF 4
15 PAGES 327 TO 495
16
17
18
19 JUNE 24 (Continuing) & JUNE 25, 1998
20
21
22
23
24
25
0328
1 TOM HANEY: Okay. I have approximately
2 1:05 and we are back on tape, same folks that were here
3 earlier.
4 Before we get back to the photos, as we go
5 back a little bit, which you brought up this morning,
6 Mrs. Ramsey, about the heart on the hand, I want to
7 make sure that I have got this straight. You said that
8 on the night of the 25th when you put JonBenet down,
9 you didn't recall seeing any drawings or markings, any
10 heart or anything like that.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
12 TOM HANEY: Okay. And then, in your words,
13 would you tell me when it is or how it is that you
14 recall something about something on her hand?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I recently read the
16 autopsy report, part of it, and the heart drawing on
17 her hand. I really don't know which hand, I don't
18 know. I don't know which hand. And I heard some talk
19 about the heart on her hand. But I can't be sure that
20 I actually saw the heart on her hand after we
21 discovered her body. But I have a visual image of the
22 heart on her hand, but I may be drawing that from
23 things I have heard or read. Can't really remember
24 physically seeing the heart on her hand.
25 TOM HANEY: Okay. So no independent
0329
1 recollection of --
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
3 TOM HANEY: -- that?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Huh-uh.
5 TOM HANEY: Okay. One other thing, this
6 morning you mentioned that the doctors, Dr. Brown in
7 Atlanta, had diagnosed this post traumatic stress
8 disorder, and I wondered what the symptoms, what
9 symptoms you experience as a result of that.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, just very sad and
11 very -- crying a lot, fatigue easily.
12 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do your symptoms include
13 anything like nightmares?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I had those.
15 TOM HANEY: About?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh, I have flashbacks of
17 seeing my daughter lying down on the floor in our
18 living room, and I have flashbacks of hearing JonBenet
19 scream. I have nightmares where I am, you know,
20 searching, searching, searching trying to find
21 somebody, and trying to find who did this.
22 TOM HANEY: Is there something that brings
23 these on?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No, not necessarily.
25 TOM HANEY: Like. They could come to you any
0330
1 time?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you know, if I have been
3 doing like what we are doing, concentrating on this,
4 like right now it has been kind of blue.
5 TOM HANEY: Sure. Does looking at the
6 photos, does that bring it back?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
8 TOM HANEY: More than say our discussion
9 yesterday?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
11 TOM HANEY: Okay. And even say the trip to
12 Boulder?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
14 TOM HANEY: Things like reading the autopsy,
15 that --
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I didn't really -- I
17 know she was struck on the head and that there was
18 something tied around the neck I know. I never really
19 had read anything, all the details.
20 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you have -- since then
21 you have?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, not read all of them,
23 the medical things, it is kind of hard to read, but,
24 you know, it is difficult.
25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Let's get back, is there
0331
1 anything else, get back to the photos, let's see.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you feel all right?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I am all right.
4 TOM HANEY: We left off, I think here on 52,
5 I think, unless there is something else that you
6 noticed. 53 was the last. 53 is the next.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Like the photo at the top of
8 the spiral stairwell.
9 TOM HANEY: 54.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Somewhere in there, that looks
11 like her little red jump suit there.
12 TOM HANEY: I think we do have -- excuse me,
13 a little better of that. Anything else in that?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Nothing else.
15 TOM HANEY: Okay. 55.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: The (inaudible), house. These
17 are little -- the little black shoes with the leopard
18 or whatever skin on it.
19 TOM HANEY: Those are on the floor inside the
20 door?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I believe she wore those with
22 her little velvet outfit.
23 TOM HANEY: What about?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible).
25 TOM HANEY: Do you know what was in there?
0332
1 PATSY RAMSEY: No. We had a lot of presents
2 around. I wrapped a lot of gifts, don't know what was
3 in there.
4 TOM HANEY: There is another photo of that
5 bag.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
7 TOM HANEY: Fifty-six.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the laundry area
9 there. I hang things out to dry here.
10 TOM HANEY: Can you identify any of the items
11 that are there as having been worn recently?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Not really. I can't really
13 tell what they are.
14 TOM HANEY: There is one item up here, I
15 think a dryer.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: A dryer, yeah.
17 TOM HANEY: It appears to be some sort of
18 pink -- not sure, a pink material.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
20 TOM HANEY: I don't. That is why I was
21 asking.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
23 TOM HANEY: Nothing unusual?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Fifty-seven, show the --
0333
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Fifty-seven and 58.
2 TOM HANEY: Why don't you tell us what that
3 is.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: That is the red jump suit that
5 she wore at the performance at the little jacket
6 (inaudible).
7 TOM HANEY: What color is the jacket?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: It is red velvet.
9 TOM HANEY: What were you doing with that
10 jump suit that morning?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: There were some spots on it,
12 and I was kind of looking at them thinking that when I
13 got back from the lake I would take it to the
14 dry-cleaner or whatever.
15 A kitchen knife.
16 TOM HANEY: What would that be doing there?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
18 TOM HANEY: It does look like a kitchen
19 knife.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh. I don't know what it
21 is doing there.
22 TOM HANEY: Do you recall yourself having
23 anything to do with that knife being there?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Is it on something? Is
25 that --
0334
1 TOM HANEY: I think that is just a shadow,
2 but a reflection off the --
3 PATSY RAMSEY: There. There is a tiny
4 yellowish color there. Can you see that?
5 I'm not sure if that is one of my kitchen
6 knives, to tell you the truth. That must be something.
7 TOM HANEY: We would have that.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I could see that. In the
9 picture it looks like it is a very thin blade, like a
10 grapefruit knife or something.
11 TOM HANEY: What about the handle?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I had some wooden handle
13 knives, but I don't know why I would have it there in
14 the kitchen, you know. I don't know why it is there.
15 TOM HANEY: Could one of the children brought
16 that?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: No. No. No.
18 TOM HANEY: In the previous interview on
19 the -- last April, there was some discussion about
20 Burke having a Swiss Army knife, I think at that time,
21 correct me if I am wrong. You said it had his name or
22 initials on it?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
24 TOM HANEY: Would he have had any other
25 knives or would there have been any other Swiss Army
0335
1 type of knives in the house? Did John have any?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I don't
3 remember.
4 TOM HANEY: Would Burke have had more than
5 one, more than just one with his name on it?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: It seems like we might have
7 had a little tiny one like a key chain or something,
8 but it might have been -- I just remember the red one
9 with his name on it that I got him in Switzerland.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Patsy, I read somewhere that
11 Burke would walk through the house whittling sometimes,
12 whittle in the house; is that true?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I never saw him walk through
14 the house whittling. Now I did, on occasion, in the
15 play room see little whittling like wood, kind of
16 whittles, you know.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: You did ever see him whittle?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No, No, I didn't.
19 TRIP DEMUTH: Is there any reason why Burke
20 would have a knife like this.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Huh-uh.
22 TOM HANEY: Back to photo 57, this top
23 cabinet, it is closed in this particular photo.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
25 TOM HANEY: What is normally kept in there,
0336
1 if you recall?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Tissue.
3 TOM HANEY: In the video that the police took
4 walking through, which was taken some time later, there
5 are -- there is packages of Pull-ups.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: They would be in there, yeah.
7 TOM HANEY: All right. They are partially
8 hanging out in the video?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yup.
10 TOM HANEY: Would those be the Pull-ups that
11 you would normally put on JonBenet?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
13 TOM HANEY: Do you recall the last time you
14 put those on her?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: It hadn't been for quite some
16 time, but I remember buying them to take a few with us
17 on the cruise, thinking that maybe a combination it
18 would be like on the cruise, and I didn't want her to
19 spoil the mattress. So I bought a new package, and
20 probably had taken some out and put them in the
21 suitcase I was packing. But she hadn't really worn
22 them, you know, very much recently.
23 TOM HANEY: Do you recall prior when the last
24 time you put Pull-ups on her?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
0337
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Other than the knife in the
2 photo 58, I guess 57 and 58, anything unusual you see
3 there?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: This is my sewing kit, the
5 little box.
6 TRIP DEMUTH: That is in 58?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Sewing box. I can't make out
8 what these little things are here. The detergent,
9 spray starch and fabric softener, and there is
10 something on top.
11 TRIP DEMUTH: Photo 57?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh. (Inaudible).
13 Something behind the Tide box. I don't know what that
14 is.
15 TRIP DEMUTH: Anything stick out as unusual?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: You would consider that knife
18 unusual?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I would consider that unusual.
20 Uh-huh.
21 TRIP DEMUTH: Fifty-nine.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible). I don't know
23 what that is (inaudible).
24 TRIP DEMUTH: Sixty.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Back door out to the patio.
0338
1 These are some gifts that were in the bags.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: In the lower right-hand corner
3 of photo 60 those are the bags of presents that you
4 talked about earlier.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
6 TRIP DEMUTH: Otherwise that is fine.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: That looks like the inside
10 door to the patio.
11 TRIP DEMUTH: Sixty-one.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: That looks like it would be in
13 the locked position. Dead bolt.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Sixty-two.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: My messy garage. That is
16 looking out over the car, the door that leads out to
17 the patio. Christmas declarations there.
18 TOM HANEY: Is that door pretty much locked
19 or is it used. It looks likes it is --
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it is locked around this
21 time of the year because I had all of these Christmas
22 ornament boxes out there, but it is usually locked.
23 TOM HANEY: In the garage there, the garage
24 door itself.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: The big one here.
0339
1 TOM HANEY: Yeah. Was that down in the
2 morning?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
4 TOM HANEY: Do you remember closing it when
5 you got home that night, or did John?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember specifically
7 that. We usually came in, closed the door, hit the
8 button.
9 TOM HANEY: Pretty much routine?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
11 TOM HANEY: Photo 63.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
13 TRIP DEMUTH: Which vehicle did you take to
14 the lake, was that the white Jaquar, is that what that
15 is?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible). Yeah, I'm almost
17 sure. Yeah, I think it is. And there is JonBenet's
18 coat back there.
19 TRIP DEMUTH: Is that the coat she wore that
20 night?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I think so.
22 TRIP DEMUTH: Sixty-four.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the door between the
24 cloak room there out to the garage. These are bells in
25 the back door. This door was definitely kept unlocked.
0340
1 TOM HANEY: Could you hear the bells if you
2 opened the door?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
4 TRIP DEMUTH: Could you hear it from the
5 bedroom?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Doubtful. This is the hallway
7 looking out to the patio. This is like a little
8 jewelry making kit, a bead maker. This is for
9 JonBenet.
10 TOM HANEY: Earlier.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I couldn't tell. That
12 is (inaudible). A little package. It looks like --
13 don't know. Isn't that a stain or something?
14 TOM HANEY: Is that something with the bead
15 making kit?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe. I believe it is
17 stacked up here. Earrings and sunglasses and papers
18 and things.
19 TRIP DEMUTH: All is normal?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
21 TRIP DEMUTH: That was 65. Now look at photo
22 66; do you recognize that?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean -- I mean, I know
24 Jay Olenski, (phonetic) but I don't remember seeing
25 that.
0341
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Is that on the shelf there?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh.
3 TOM HANEY: I think it is upside down.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks like it might be.
5 John could stack mail there to take out to the office.
6 Trying to see. This looks like a desk. This is some
7 kind of lip. Okay. The living area again, looking in
8 JonBenet's room. The fire (inaudible).
9 TRIP DEMUTH: It might be part of the clock.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: The red and green. Red and
11 black or something. A sock.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: Photo 67 at the bottom, do you
13 know, do you recognize what that is?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. A piece of
15 ribbon or something. I don't know. Maybe there is
16 another picture looking another way.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: Maybe. Could it be one of the
18 scarfs that you handed out at the Christmas party?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: It could be.
20 TRIP DEMUTH: Did you have extra scarfs
21 laying around?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Not really. I mean, John had
23 his that Beth gave him from a school trip to Scotland
24 or someplace. And then I had given one to everybody,
25 all the men, at the party on the 23rd. I gave Santa
0342
1 Claus one, and then I -- there were various plaids, but
2 mostly red and some plain red ones.
3 Do I have that somewhere, because I would
4 know the difference between John's and the one I bought
5 from JC Penny like for $10.
6 TOM HANEY: I have another picture of another
7 scarf later on.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: John's was heavier wool.
9 TOM HANEY: Does that look like a scarf to
10 you?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it could be. It is hard
12 to tell from the angle, but now that you said that, it
13 could be, you know, kind of bunched up, you know.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Put this back in here.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: Yeah. Sixty-eight is right
17 here.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: These are the sconces I was
19 telling you about in the den.
20 TRIP DEMUTH: So 68 is a photograph of the
21 sconces you were talking about over the spiral
22 staircase; correct?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
24 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. Sixty-nine.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Down to the butler kitchen
0343
1 area, the coat rack that I had set up for the party. A
2 tray, yeah. I don't know. Here is the door in there.
3 TRIP DEMUTH: You said --
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I opened that to take --
5 TRIP DEMUTH: To take a picture?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Was it locked, do you know?
7 TRIP DEMUTH: Yeah. I can't recall whether
8 it was.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. I don't know.
10 (inaudible).
11 TOM HANEY: Seventy-one.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
13 TRIP DEMUTH: I want to ask a question before
14 we go off the butler area, as long as you are looking
15 at 69 there.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: You used to have your painting
18 materials in the butler kitchen; right?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
20 TRIP DEMUTH: Where were they?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Right here. Right in this
22 area.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: Just in the central area or was
24 it off to the side?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, this wasn't a real big
0344
1 space. So it had the easel kind of set up right there
2 and the sink was there to wash, and the (inaudible)
3 area.
4 TRIP DEMUTH: You had a paint tree also, a
5 tray, or I don't know what you call --
6 PATSY RAMSEY: It was like a little utility
7 carrier with paint in it and stuff.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you remember when you moved
9 those items?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. Linda did. I asked
11 her to take them to the bedroom.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. And do you remember when
13 she did that?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she did it prior to the
15 party on the 23rd because we wanted to hang coats here.
16 I don't know exactly the day she did it, but --
17 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know where she moved
18 them to?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Down here in the basement, I
20 think, you know, kind of like sort of in this area.
21 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
22 TOM HANEY: Well, there is a -- I think maybe
23 a quick little look at the tray with some brushes in it
24 in a minute. In that tray of brushes what would you
25 have had in there?
0345
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Paint and brushes and
2 probably -- I don't know. I don't know exactly what
3 was in there. Supplies, you know, paint supplies.
4 TOM HANEY: What kind of painting were you
5 doing? What kind of paint would you have had in there?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, oil or acrylic. I
7 signed up for a class where you could use both, and I
8 started out using oil and it got over my car, so I
9 switched to acrylic, but there was a mishmash in there.
10 TOM HANEY: Okay. Out of the brushes you
11 would have had in there, would you have had any that
12 were broken or damaged or would you --
13 PATSY RAMSEY: No, they were all pretty new.
14 TOM HANEY: Okay. So any broken or damaged
15 ones?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Throw it away.
17 TOM HANEY: So --
18 TRIP DEMUTH: Take a minute, Patsy, and think
19 about the paint tree. Were there any broken paint
20 brushes that you recall?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: No, not that I recall. They
22 were all pretty new when -- they had a list of things
23 to buy for the class.
24 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
25 TOM HANEY: Did you follow their advice?
0346
1 Sometimes, you know, you get the list from school and
2 you think do you need all of this.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, pretty close, yeah.
4 TOM HANEY: What is available. Do you recall
5 where you would have made the purchase before this?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Art Hardware in Boulder.
7 TOM HANEY: Is that on Broadway?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: On Broadway.
9 TOM HANEY: Still on this.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the basement.
11 (Inaudible).
12 TOM HANEY: Because of that and the fact it
13 is little difficult to work around, if you can describe
14 the things that you can see from there.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, JonBenet's Easter
16 basket. And this looks like a little wall. They had
17 taken off the wall in the living room where the
18 Christmas tree was at, and miscellaneous candles and
19 things, ribbons. This is the box where I started to
20 keep paper work from the kid's school projects. The
21 train area in there.
22 TOM HANEY: The boxes, the red one is on
23 file, it says that's crafts.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Grapes.
25 TOM HANEY: Grapes?
0347
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Grapes. That is like grapes
2 that I put on the Christmas tree, like the artificial,
3 and that looks like a card table in five. There is a
4 sink sort of area here. And (inaudible). Golf clubs.
5 TOM HANEY: Whose are those?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Those are John's.
7 TOM HANEY: Does he play much golf?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
9 TOM HANEY: Do you remember the last time he
10 played?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: You mean recently here?
12 TOM HANEY: Well, no.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I don't remember when.
14 TOM HANEY: Okay. Did you play?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I got golf clubs, I think
16 maybe last Christmas hoping to. So far I have not.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: Patsy, there are two doors
18 there, were those normally open or closed?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Those are normally open.
20 TRIP DEMUTH: What about this, what is this
21 brown --
22 PATSY RAMSEY: This is brown like a little
23 end table that came down from the living room. They
24 had to take a lot of furniture out of the living room
25 to get Christmas in there.
0348
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Does that look like where it
2 was left?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. It was all pretty much
4 thrown down there.
5 TRIP DEMUTH: Is that blocking the door to
6 the training room, do you remember?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I don't know if it was
8 fully blocking it, but it was a lot of stuff piled up
9 in that area right there.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: There is nothing unusual about
11 the location in this photo. It looks kind of where you
12 left it?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, I can't imagine I
14 would have put it right in front of there because they
15 had to go in there to play.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: I can't really tell by looking.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't either.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: That is why I'm asking.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
20 TRIP DEMUTH: That is photo 71, just so --
21 TOM HANEY: Seventy-two.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. This is back, this is
23 what we referred to as the (inaudible) cover, these are
24 (inaudible) painting here. When were these pictures
25 taken, before we found JonBenet?
0349
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Yes.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: See that door is locked there,
3 because there is a little tab thing on there.
4 TOM HANEY: Is that the way it is normally
5 secured with that, is it a block of wood?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
7 TOM HANEY: And how firmly or loosely is that
8 attached?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: You mean the wood?
10 TOM HANEY: Yes, the wood, the block.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you know, it bends, you
12 know. I mean, you have to turn it.
13 TOM HANEY: You have to actually apply some
14 force?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
16 TOM HANEY: Would it be capable of falling
17 down on its own?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't know, and I wasn't
19 always -- you know, I was hiding some Christmas
20 presents and stuff back in there for Christmas.
21 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you recall --
22 PATSY RAMSEY: What I was going to say, I
23 mean, after bringing the stuff up out of there after
24 Christmas, I would not have specifically necessarily
25 locked it because it kind of drags on the carpet.
0350
1 TOM HANEY: All right.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: So I can't say that I
3 personally left it neat and tidy shut and closed after
4 I had gotten all of the toys out of there.
5 TOM HANEY: You said it kind of drags on the
6 bottom of the carpet. The carpet is too high or the
7 door is too low. How tough is it to open, I mean is
8 it --
9 PATSY RAMSEY: You can do it. I can do it,
10 but you had some resistance.
11 TOM HANEY: Okay. Is there a spot where you
12 couldn't open past that?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
14 TOM HANEY: So if we refer to your 90 degrees
15 to pull over, it would do that with just some effort?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
17 TOM HANEY: Okay.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: Patsy, I would like to know,
19 the best of your memory, prior to this Christmas, who
20 had gone in that wine cellar.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, at Thanksgiving time I
22 asked my cleaning lady, I had kept my big artificial
23 trees in there, and I asked her to come and, you know,
24 put those up while I was gone at Thanksgiving. So I
25 don't know exactly who was with her to help her. She
0351
1 insinuated this is when they were going to also clean
2 some of the windows, she and her husband. I think she
3 also mentioned that her daughter had come to help her,
4 Kristen, I think.
5 And they were there on Thanksgiving day, I
6 know, because they (inaudible). They said they brought
7 them something over for Thanksgiving to eat. So I
8 would know that group, one or all of them, took the --
9 because the trees were up when I got back, so they had
10 to have been in there to get them out of there.
11 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. You know, it wasn't
13 like a full-blown wine cellar, but we kept a couple
14 boxes of wine in there. And I want to say that -- I
15 don't remember whether it was the night of the 23rd,
16 that party or some party we had, I remember somebody
17 saying we are out of red wine. And I said please
18 (inaudible) to or something. But at some time, please
19 go to the basement to get some more red wine, but he
20 would know where that was.
21 TOM HANEY: Okay.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: This guy named Bob Ballis
23 (phonetic) who did some Christmas decorations, he made
24 these things, you know, a year or more before when we
25 had the Christmas open house. He would know about
0352
1 that.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: My question is: Who had been
3 in that room prior to Christmas of '96, Bob Ballis, was
4 he the Christmas of '95?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Right.
6 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. In the months prior to
7 Christmas of 1996 Fleet would have gone in there?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I would say Fleet, the
9 cleaning lady and --
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Maybe the husband?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe the husband and maybe
12 the daughter.
13 TRIP DEMUTH: How about yourself?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Me, taking hiding.
15 TRIP DEMUTH: Would the children go in there?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No. If I had presents in
17 there I would have locked it up.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: They couldn't reach that?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
20 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. Anyone else besides
21 those people actually go into the wine cellar?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Let me think. There were
23 paint cans in there. I think Jay Pedify (phonetic)
24 would have been likely back there, but I don't remember
25 when we had him, if he was there painting that fall or
0353
1 not.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: Would that have been in the
3 fall maybe, or summer or fall, but --
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, but we know of
5 that when there were paints cans.
6 TRIP DEMUTH: He would have gone in there?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Now I can't say whether
8 it was in 1996 or 1995.
9 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. That is fair enough.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I was trying to think of who
11 might have ever have been in that room.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
13 TOM HANEY: What else was stored there?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: That is what I was trying to
15 think of. I had a little bicycle of Burke's, a little
16 Batman, the first bicycle with little tiny wheels. I
17 couldn't bear to part with that. Part of it was
18 broken, I think.
19 TRIP DEMUTH: Was there some time that you
20 had the basement painted?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
22 TRIP DEMUTH: When was that?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: That was before the home tour.
24 That would have been like the fall of '94, we had it
25 painted and the carpet laid down there. And then some
0354
1 time later, oh, maybe like the spring of 1995 or
2 something, we had a real bad water leak in the closet
3 back down there and the carpet had to be pulled up and
4 all of that, and the workman were down there.
5 TRIP DEMUTH: The spring of 1995.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: There was some time when we
7 had a ton of rain and everybody was getting floods.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Was that 1995, you think?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it was, because I
10 remember it was raining the last day of school.
11 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know who the carpet
12 people were, the company or anything like that?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I might have had Service
14 Master come out and vacuum up the water, because it was
15 squishy and it went back into --
16 TRIP DEMUTH: Would those people have gone in
17 the wine cellar?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I was trying to
19 think of who all would have been in the basement.
20 TRIP DEMUTH: When and how often, I'm talking
21 about in the months prior to Christmas, when and how
22 often did you go into the wine cellar?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, not very often. I might
24 have a wrapping session, you know, of Christmas things
25 in there, so maybe a couple times before Christmas.
0355
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Is that shortly before
2 Christmas or more into November, or what do you think?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Probably before
4 Christmas.
5 TOM HANEY: We are finished with 72. Is
6 there anything else?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
8 TOM HANEY: Okay. Seventy-three.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: This is a little window where
10 the cord would come in from the lights outside.
11 TOM HANEY: Is there something through that
12 hole at this time there?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, that orange.
14 (inaudible).
15 TOM HANEY: That is for the exterior lights,
16 the Christmas lights?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
18 TOM HANEY: Seventy-four.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Burke's train set up. The
20 washer and the dryer in the basement.
21 TOM HANEY: Seventy-five.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Seventy-five, where I wrapped
23 Christmas.
24 TRIP DEMUTH: The laundry room?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: The laundry room.
0356
1 TOM HANEY: You would wrap them there and
2 store them in the wine cellar?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, or if we were going out
4 of town.
5 TRIP DEMUTH: I want to make sure, talking
6 about 74 and 75.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible). I don't know
8 what that thing is.
9 TRIP DEMUTH: One of the tools you use on
10 sprinkler systems?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: That is in photo 75, and you
13 are pointing at the long rod type of object to the left
14 of the washer and dryer. Okay.
15 TOM HANEY: Do you have a lawn sprinkler?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: Seventy-six.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: This the front door, inside
19 the front door. That is the main door and (inaudible).
20 TRIP DEMUTH: What about the fliers?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: The fliers would have been
22 back in the back corner back here.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: The basket we see in the
24 picture of 76 is not the one the fliers were in.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No. This is the mail, what
0357
1 the mail was dropped in.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: They would have been back
4 in --
5 TRIP DEMUTH: To the left in the corner?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: And another smaller basket
9 with a handle. I don't see it yet. No, I don't see
10 it.
11 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. Seventy-eight.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Our kitchen table. This is
13 where the kids had made gingerbread houses. The
14 gingerbread house sitting there. There is a little box
15 I kept my Christmas cards in.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: On the right?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. It looks like a little
18 Noah's ark. The Nutcracker. This is a bowl, a cereal
19 bowl, that glass there. A canister or a jar, a jar.
20 Oh, maybe a cup of coffee.
21 This is the dining room.
22 TOM HANEY: Anything else in that one, 78?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
24 TOM HANEY: Something is the toy soldier. I
25 think we might have skipped one.
0358
1 PATSY RAMSEY: That is the back of the front
2 door (inaudible). This is one of the -- second one is
3 where the lamp post got burnt that must have been on.
4 TRIP DEMUTH: Talking about the second white
5 switch from the left on the switch panel?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: In photo 77.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know what this is.
9 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Are those rubber bands? It
11 looks like red rubber bands on the door knob. I think
12 when I would get the newspaper in the morning I would
13 take the rubber band off and put it on that.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: You see that?
16 TOM HANEY: Seventy-nine.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: That is the dining room. This
18 is a runner going down the middle. These are flower
19 arrangements. A big (inaudible) thing.
20 TOM HANEY: Everything looks normal?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
22 TOM HANEY: Eighty.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible). This looks like
24 the jacket I was talking to you, the leather one with
25 the fur.
0359
1 TOM HANEY: That is on a stool in the
2 kitchen?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: The back of the kitchen stool,
4 yeah.
5 TRIP DEMUTH: Photograph 80; right.
6 TOM HANEY: Do you know what kind of fur that
7 is?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. It is a strange
9 name.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: And --
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Model, see the bow right here,
12 JonBenet and I made that in a pottery place.
13 TRIP DEMUTH: That is on the --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Counter.
15 TRIP DEMUTH: On the left side of the photo.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: That looks like a (inaudible).
17 TRIP DEMUTH: Anything look out of place?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible).
19 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
20 TOM HANEY: Eighty-nine now.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Outside the sliding door.
22 TOM HANEY: These are still -- if I'm not
23 mistaken -- this is still earlier in the morning?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Something red here, can't tell
25 what it is.
0360
1 TOM HANEY: On the ground behind the little
2 tree. Nothing in 89 other than the one where the
3 little red spec is?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
5 TOM HANEY: Okay.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: There is the door there. This
7 door (inaudible). Is that the (inaudible).
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Looking through the door.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: The door is the glass.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: That is photo 90; right.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: Nothing unusual about 90?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, trying to figure out
14 what is right inside that door. Not unusual to kind of
15 block that door, because when we had the Christmas tree
16 we moved it around and shut it to put the furniture in.
17 TOM HANEY: On 92 now.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Little toy Christmas things.
19 TOM HANEY: (Inaudible).
20 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible).
21 TRIP DEMUTH: I think, Patsy, in photo 92, we
22 will see in 93 also, I think that blue thing is the New
23 Years (inaudible). Any idea how it got there?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No. No. No idea.
25 TRIP DEMUTH: You can see a little better in
0361
1 93.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible).
3 TOM HANEY: What about 94 now? A lot of the
4 photos in this last group we are looking at now were
5 the exterior showing the windows and doors. As far as
6 the doors -- I know this was asked before, key control,
7 and it was something that was not existent.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: It was not really controlled.
9 TOM HANEY: Do you remember the last time
10 that you ever had the locks changed in the house since
11 the time you moved in?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
13 TOM HANEY: When you moved in, was it the
14 keys to the locks that were in the house and you didn't
15 have them changed and went on from there?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, gosh, we might have
17 because we put in a new front door, that maroon door
18 with the two lights on the top, the glass on top, there
19 was a new mechanism there, so that would have been new.
20 TOM HANEY: Did you need a different key for
21 any two different locks or were they all keys?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I think they were all keyed
23 the same.
24 TOM HANEY: When you replaced the front door.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably rekeyed.
0362
1 TOM HANEY: Rekeyed others or just that one
2 or do you know?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: John would know that. We got
4 the new front door, so I know that was a new lock
5 there, so I --
6 TOM HANEY: But at the time you moved in you
7 don't know that --
8 PATSY RAMSEY: How many people had it;
9 correct.
10 TOM HANEY: So certainly the day you moved
11 in, what about your key control, I think it was asked.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I think I gave the list.
13 Trying to recall, that was a way long time ago. It
14 must be somewhere.
15 TOM HANEY: I have seen various lists. But
16 is there anybody to add to it? Have you come up with
17 anybody else?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No. That should be my best
19 recollection.
20 TOM HANEY: Whatever the last list would be?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
22 TOM HANEY: I have no clue when that was.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Early, I'm sure.
24 TOM HANEY: There has been talk about hidden
25 keys outside. Did you -- did you regularly leave a key
0363
1 hidden somewhere?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I, at one time, used to leave
3 a key under Pierre. Pierre is a little statue guy.
4 This guy right here. You push him back, there was a
5 little key. He sat still on a platform.
6 TOM HANEY: He is outside the door by the sun
7 room?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. He is on a little
9 platform, and if you lean him back, there was a key
10 under there.
11 But then, you know, you forgot if you used
12 the key, and we were not very diligent about putting it
13 back.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: We see Pierre in photo 89.
15 TOM HANEY: When do you recall the last time
16 the key was under there?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Don't know.
18 TOM HANEY: Do you ever recall pulling out to
19 look under Pierre and not having a key?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
21 TOM HANEY: Do you recall when that would
22 have been?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I think actually -- no,
24 let me think. I locked myself out one time and I
25 looked under Pierre for the key and there was no key.
0364
1 And I think I had to go to Betty. Betty couldn't find
2 her key. That is how I know she misplaced her key.
3 I think I called Barbara Fernie from Betty's.
4 I said, where are you, can you come by my house and let
5 me in. I do remember that, but I don't know when that
6 was. I mean, it was certainly before all this, but how
7 far back I don't know.
8 TOM HANEY: What was your usual method though
9 for coming in?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Garage door opener, go in, and
11 then the inside garage door was unlocked. I had never
12 used the house key ever.
13 TOM HANEY: Did you ever hide a key on the
14 cars?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: How did you lock yourself out?
17 How did that happen?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I don't know.
19 I must have usually -- when that would happen it was
20 because I went out the front door to go lift somebody
21 someplace and be in the car with my opener. I just
22 can't remember.
23 I remember looking, there wasn't a key.
24 Betty didn't have a key, and I had to run to Barbara's
25 house somewhere. Maybe I had been out with Barbara
0365
1 that morning. I don't know.
2 Maybe Barbara would remember.
3 TOM HANEY: Ninety-four, how about 95, 96?
4 TRIP DEMUTH: I have a question on 94. First
5 of all, do you see anything unusual in photo 94?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: All chopped up here. It looks
7 like it has been -- was that the -- is that clothes or
8 where it folds to close there?
9 TRIP DEMUTH: I think it is the screen door
10 that is open with the interior door closed.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: Does that look about right?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, it does. This looks
14 off. (Inaudible). I can't tell if it is scratched or
15 if it has been dug at or something.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know anything about
17 that? Have you seen that before.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember. I don't
19 know. This looks like a (inaudible).
20 TOM HANEY: That is photo 96; right.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
22 TOM HANEY: You are talking about right up to
23 the right of the door knob is discoloration or a smudge
24 or fingerprint powder or one of these things.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Four patio chairs, somebody
0366
1 stole two of them.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: Nothing unusual in 95 or 96
3 other than the markings on the door?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
5 TOM HANEY: Ninety-seven.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: The back of the house; the
7 garage door; the wagon; the trash can.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Nothing out of place?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. Trash can is where you
11 left it?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Ninety-eight, this is
13 white, a sail board or whatever it is.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: That is Burke's sled.
16 TOM HANEY: Ninety-nine.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
18 TOM HANEY: A little snow here, there has
19 been a lot of talk about the ground conditions outside.
20 You went to the door, the front door, to meet the first
21 officer who came, did you go outside?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No, not beyond just the
23 threshold there.
24 TOM HANEY: When you looked out, do you
25 recall, was there anything on the ground, on the ground
0367
1 or on the walkway or --
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember being on the
3 grass, no.
4 TOM HANEY: Would you have noticed that
5 particularly at that time?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know if I would, but I
7 know, I mean, I have been married to my husband long
8 enough to know that he is flying and we are always
9 watching the weather. I think if I had seen a big snow
10 or any kind of snow, I would have remembered it.
11 TOM HANEY: The snow that I'm talking about
12 here is what jogs this with me.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Patchy.
14 TOM HANEY: I'm not talking that. I'm
15 talking a little light dusting or frost or anything
16 like that.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
18 TOM HANEY: Ninety-nine. One hundred.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: The front of Fernie's car.
20 TOM HANEY: The van in photo 100; right?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. There is, the lamp
22 post is on.
23 TOM HANEY: Did you just turn that on at the
24 beginning of the Christmas season?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, pretty much left it on.
0368
1 TOM HANEY: Because it is on in a previous
2 photo that you identified.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
4 TOM HANEY: Okay.
5 TRIP DEMUTH: Anything else unusual about
6 100?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: 101.
9 TOM HANEY: What I would like to know with
10 regard to 102 and three, is any -- do you recognize any
11 cars in those, anything stick out to you?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember this car.
13 TRIP DEMUTH: That is the one, the same one.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: The red stripes on it.
15 TRIP DEMUTH: Photo 102.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: This looks like Priscilla's
17 station wagon.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: A white --
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Volvo.
20 TRIP DEMUTH: Volvo in picture 102.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. The white Volvo again
22 in 103. I don't know that one. There is a van.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. The Volvo, Priscilla's
24 Volvo in photo 103 that -- if you count each car, each
25 car, the one, two, third car up on the right side of
0369
1 the street, and the van is the third car up on the left
2 side of the street.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
4 TOM HANEY: 104, and we have to look at the
5 photo, but it looks like a doorjamb with powder on it,
6 which one.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: Some of these, they are just a
8 sequence, don't have any significance for you.
9 Anything about 101 or two or three that we talked about
10 that sticks out?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Anybody know whose car that
12 is?
13 TRIP DEMUTH: I know there has been some
14 research done on the vehicles, and I can't remember off
15 the top of my head who owned that car. But you have
16 never seen it before?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
19 TOM HANEY: 105 and 106 kind of follow the
20 104 that is some part of a doorjamb that had powder on
21 it. Same with 107.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible). That is
23 JonBenet's stuffed animal, the white bear. I don't
24 know whose drink cup that would be. That is not mine.
25 TRIP DEMUTH: The one with the straw in it?
0370
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: Is it unusual for JonBenet's
3 stuffed bear to be in the TV room? Is that a normal
4 place?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: She carried it around
6 typically. There is stuff on the table. There is a
7 note pad.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
9 TOM HANEY: Was that picture taken in the
10 morning on the 26th? I believe so.
11 TRIP DEMUTH: Right here in this area that
12 the times change.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: We (inaudible). I don't know
14 what that stuff is. It looks like a toy area, like
15 there is a bag there.
16 TOM HANEY: First of all, the cup that you
17 are talking about.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: The plastic cup, a sippy cup.
19 TOM HANEY: Water bottle type.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. There was so many
21 people in the house that day.
22 TOM HANEY: Right. But that isn't something
23 that you normally would have or would have been in that
24 room before?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No. This -- I don't know what
0371
1 that is, like a bag or statue or something like that.
2 I don't know what that is (inaudible). But that is a
3 piece of paper there.
4 TOM HANEY: This is -- does there appear to
5 be a particular type of pad?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Can't tell. The paper.
7 (inaudible).
8 TOM HANEY: It looks like a white legal pad.
9 That drink cup, do you see anything identifiable on it?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible). Can't tell. No.
11 TOM HANEY: That was 107. 108.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: The living room there.
13 (Inaudible).
14 TRIP DEMUTH: He is in the sun room in 108.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible). This looks like
16 a sweat shirt.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: On the chair.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Right there. (Inaudible).
19 TOM HANEY: 108, 109 I think is the tall
20 canisters (inaudible) that morning. 112, it shows the
21 same pad there. Let's skip to 113.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: That is JonBenet's room.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: 115, is that the same.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. This is the paint thing
25 we went over. This is the (inaudible). That looks
0372
1 like little scrapes.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: Which door?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: The bedroom door.
4 TOM HANEY: Does it lock?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: I think so. I mean, all of
6 them with the button, the buttons.
7 TOM HANEY: Okay.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: 116 you can see the fan on
9 the --
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
11 TRIP DEMUTH: Was there a light associated
12 with that?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
14 TOM HANEY: You have seen that shot before?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I was trying to figure out if
16 the blanket was on there earlier. I don't know if that
17 is the bed.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: I think there is more pictures
19 of that.
20 TOM HANEY: Yeah, and that is 113 through 16
21 we just finished.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible). I don't know
23 what the blue thing is there, a duffle bag or
24 something. I can't tell.
25 PATRICK BURKE: Were these pictures taken a
0373
1 little later in the morning?
2 TRIP DEMUTH: This is now later.
3 TOM HANEY: I think the blue bag was in the
4 earlier photo.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
6 TOM HANEY: So, yeah. It is just a second
7 set of --
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Would you like a look at
9 Christmas, (inaudible), what does it look like to you?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: A little white bear dressed in
11 a Santa Claus outfit.
12 TOM HANEY: 119, now 120.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I believe that was the gift
14 bag we were talking about before.
15 Was there anything in that, do we know?
16 TOM HANEY: Yeah. Later we have a bigger
17 blow up, so when we get to that, I will show you that
18 one, too.
19 TRIP DEMUTH: Here are more shots of the bed.
20 I don't know if you would look at the mattress or the
21 bed spread. That is 121. Is this surprising to see a
22 video by the bed in picture 121 or was that normal?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: She watched videos a lot and
24 there was a camera. I don't know what it is. I don't
25 know.
0374
1 I was looking at the bed spread to see if
2 that was on the right way.
3 TOM HANEY: 124 is a little closer. Two,
4 three, four, it looks like five are all of the bed.
5 Why don't you look those over.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: This looks like it is on
7 right. This is kind of strange. It kind of went out
8 and there is a flap that came down over the pillow.
9 TRIP DEMUTH: When you look at 125 you can
10 see the blanket in that.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I cannot.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: Let me ask you about this in
13 125.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: That is the (inaudible).
15 TRIP DEMUTH: Is that unusual to be hanging
16 over the door?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Usually they are kind
18 of tucked back.
19 TRIP DEMUTH: Five and four.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
21 TOM HANEY: That is the material that pulls
22 the drapery, it pulls it back.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I don't see any blood
24 or anything, do you?
25 TOM HANEY: We skipped ahead to 134. We can
0375
1 come back to these, but other than what we talked about
2 on 122, three and four, five, you don't have any
3 thoughts at this time from what you have noticed?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: No, not unless you know the
5 bag (inaudible).
6 TOM HANEY: We will look at that later.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: That is Barbara's coat hanging
8 there.
9 TRIP DEMUTH: That is in photo 134.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Here. Remember, I saw that
11 before. This looks familiar.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: A black and white pattern coat.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Green and white, like a
14 checker kind of thing.
15 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. Nothing out of place
16 there?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: Photo 137.
19 TOM HANEY: 134, five, six and seven --
20 TRIP DEMUTH: I have a question for you, you
21 spent a lot of time in this room, did you not?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: This photo was taken later, I'm
24 not exactly sure when, but can you address this dish
25 that is on the -- what you call it, end table?
0376
1 PATSY RAMSEY: That is a little China bowl.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: Uh-huh.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Can't tell what is in it. It
4 looks like oranges or something, or apples.
5 TRIP DEMUTH: When you were in this room did
6 people feed you?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I think Priscilla
8 brought in some things.
9 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you remember what that was?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I remember somebody talking
11 about going to get bagels. You know, I was so -- I
12 kept looking at that.
13 TRIP DEMUTH: You don't recall what was in
14 that dish?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know if it is fruit or
16 something.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you have any memory?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks to me like Priscilla
19 brought in some fruit. Somebody talked about going to
20 get bagels. I think she brought that.
21 That was unusual because I don't usually use
22 that bowl for serving. It is like a decorative piece.
23 I would not have put anything in that bowl.
24 TRIP DEMUTH: I'm curious, do you remember
25 what kind of fruit you were nibbling on?
0377
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think I nibbled on
2 anything. I lost my appetite.
3 TRIP DEMUTH: What was brought in, do you
4 remember?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
6 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
7 TOM HANEY: About 2:38, let's take a ten or
8 so minute break now. I think we are finished, or we
9 can come back another day until about 4:00, 5:00, 6:00
10 or 7:00.
11 PATRICK BURKE: Tom or Patsy, if I could look
12 at these pictures and pull out whichever ones you don't
13 want me to see.
14 TOM HANEY: You want to start from one and
15 work up to --
16 PATRICK BURKE: If that is okay with you.
17 TOM HANEY: Yes.
18 (Whereupon, a break was taken.)
19 PATRICK BURKE: Is this way one?
20 TOM HANEY: Yes.
21 PATRICK BURKE: Thank you.
22 TOM HANEY: Back on tape at 3:05 p.m. And we
23 left off 134, five, six and seven.
24 Is there anything else you noticed in those?
25 You want to continue to look at those?
0378
1 PATSY RAMSEY: That was the cross I kept
2 clutching every time the phone would ring.
3 TOM HANEY: On the table?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
5 TOM HANEY: Next to the white stuffed chair?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: What number?
8 TOM HANEY: 138.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Were these in the morning? It
10 seems dark out.
11 TRIP DEMUTH: This is later. This is no
12 longer in the morning.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: What about this picture 140?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: The ribbon.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: Gold ribbon.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: That must have fell off when
18 it was raining. People have been in here eating.
19 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know, we have a better
20 picture of that coming up. You are looking at picture
21 141 right now. I have a better photograph of that in a
22 moment.
23 As far as the formal dining room is
24 concerned, nothing out of the ordinary?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Huh-uh.
0379
1 TRIP DEMUTH: 142.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: That can there, I think I
3 started to get sick a couple of times.
4 TRIP DEMUTH: That is in the picture of 140.
5 It looks like a cooking pot that is in the sun room
6 under a chair; right?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I think at least that
8 is where I spent a lot of time. That is where I mostly
9 was that morning. I started getting sick.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: What about the glass on the
11 dining room table, any thoughts on that?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
13 TRIP DEMUTH: Does it look like a particular
14 glass from a particular part of your house?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it looks like some
16 crystal, you know, like a crystal drink glass, you
17 know, a bar glass.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: Is that something the people in
19 the house that morning would be using? Is it readily
20 accessible to the people that were there that morning?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe. I mean, the bar
22 glasses are kept in a lighted cupboard by the spiral
23 staircase. Maybe. It is easy to get there, but there
24 is also glasses in the kitchen.
25 TOM HANEY: 143 next, how is that?
0380
1 PATSY RAMSEY: That is the (inaudible).
2 TOM HANEY: 143 is the wine cellar with the
3 door open?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. The screens and it
5 looks like a case of wine, paint cans, a box.
6 TOM HANEY: We talked about earlier about who
7 would have been in there, and with the screens in
8 there, does that jog your memory at all or refresh your
9 recollection about who might have put the screens in
10 there, when they would have done that?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I had asked Linda
12 (inaudible) and her husband were going to clean
13 windows. I don't know what screens were on what
14 windows, if they took screens off the windows, they
15 could have put them down there, but they were -- if
16 they were going to do that.
17 TOM HANEY: The house, at least the initial,
18 the main part being an older home, did it have storm
19 windows separately that were taken off and put away for
20 the summer to put the screens on?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh. No. John would
22 probably know what screens were where, but I think
23 mostly the screens were in windows in the newer part.
24 TOM HANEY: Okay. But those were --
25 PATSY RAMSEY: In the addition.
0381
1 TOM HANEY: Were those more permanent part of
2 the window?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: We took them in and out.
4 TOM HANEY: Well, I mean permanently or semi
5 permanently, you couldn't remove them?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.
7 TOM HANEY: But normally they were left there
8 year round as opposed to some older homes were, again,
9 with the addition of storm windows, they took those off
10 and put a screen on in the summer?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: No. John never liked screens
12 too much because they clouded the windows, so he didn't
13 keep screens on too much. But if there were any taken
14 off of the window washing going on, they could have
15 very likely put them there.
16 TOM HANEY: 144.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: That is the little glass
18 block.
19 TOM HANEY: 145.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: What is the pink thing?
21 TOM HANEY: We have next up, we have some
22 close-ups of the two items in 145, which is the white
23 blanket and the paint can. So if we take -- and if we
24 skip to the other numbered one and go to -- there is a
25 black and white dated 11 February of '97, and this is a
0382
1 photo in, I believe, a plastic container still, would
2 that be the blanket that was on the bed?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
4 TRIP DEMUTH: That is JonBenet's blanket on
5 her bed in her bedroom?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I could say that, yes.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: Looking at picture 145.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. What is this pink --
9 what is that?
10 TOM HANEY: We will show you a photo of that
11 in just a second. Just want to get through some of
12 these first of the blanket itself.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: This looks a little --
14 (inaudible).
15 TRIP DEMUTH: This was sent to CES, so every
16 piece of trace evidence that was ever collected by a
17 lab, so all of that is going to be documented. Our
18 main concern is that you believe this is JonBenet's
19 blanket on her bed.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
21 TOM HANEY: This is the pink -- excuse me --
22 the pink item that again is in a plastic bag where the
23 photo was taken.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: That is her (inaudible). Why
25 was that there?
0383
1 TOM HANEY: What is it?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: It is her Barbie nightgown.
3 TOM HANEY: Is that hers or her Barbie
4 doll's? When would she have worn that last, do you
5 know?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she didn't wear it that
7 night because she had her -- she had the long underwear
8 pants and her little white shirt. And the night before
9 on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little
10 (inaudible) that was under her pillow. You saw that.
11 And before that I don't remember. But neither of those
12 two nights she wore that.
13 TOM HANEY: Where would this particular --
14 well, let me back up.
15 Does this item have some particular
16 significance?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: No. No.
18 TOM HANEY: How many nightgowns did she have?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: A lot.
20 TOM HANEY: Twenty, 30?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, 10 or so.
22 TOM HANEY: Did this one have some particular
23 significance?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
25 TOM HANEY: Do you remember who gave it to
0384
1 her?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
3 TOM HANEY: Do you remember whether you got
4 it for her? Was it a gift.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, God, it might --
6 TOM HANEY: Take some time because this is --
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Is this the only
8 picture we have of this?
9 TOM HANEY: Correct. The only one here
10 today.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I'm thinking of a Barbie
12 nightgown that had a big face of Barbie.
13 TRIP DEMUTH: It has a plastic over it, so
14 there is some glare there. You see the plastic.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah; right. What I'm saying,
16 I'm -- I remember a Barbie nightgown with a picture,
17 big picture of the head of Barbie on it. So I am not
18 quite sure this is her -- you know, one that she had.
19 TOM HANEY: Okay. You know, it appears --
20 PATSY RAMSEY: That is a Barbie doll under
21 there.
22 TOM HANEY: It appears from the waist down
23 you can see that much, but from the waist up, because
24 of the plastic, there is a flash and the reflection
25 that is washed out.
0385
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. The nightgowns were
2 kept in the bathroom, in her bathroom in the side
3 drawer there. Her pajamas were there.
4 TOM HANEY: All of them?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Unless they were in the dirty
6 clothes.
7 TOM HANEY: We talked earlier about a few
8 things kind of thrown here or there.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. Could have been, I
10 guess.
11 TOM HANEY: Do you remember her wearing it on
12 the 23rd?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Which drawer, looking at photo
15 18?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: These.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: This is her bathroom, her sink.
18 Which drawer would the Barbie doll nightgown have been
19 kept in?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably that one or the one
21 below it.
22 TRIP DEMUTH: The one that is opened or below
23 it right there in photo 18?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
25 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
0386
1 TOM HANEY: We've heard at some point this
2 was a particularly favorite nightgown. Did she have
3 such a thing?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, her favorite little
5 pajamas were like -- was this one piece sort of Jeannie
6 thing my mother had given her, kind of nylon; a little
7 one piece thing. You stepped into it and put your arms
8 out. Other than that, nothing special.
9 TRIP DEMUTH: But would your sister, Pam,
10 call this her travel nightgown for any reason? I could
11 be wrong.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, like pageants did we
13 take one?
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Is there a reason she would say
15 that?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: I just don't remember making a
17 big deal about taking one special nightgown to the
18 pageants. I think more likely we took the little
19 Jeannie pant thing because it would be -- if she had
20 her hair in curlers, you could step into it instead of
21 pulling it over your head. I don't know.
22 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know where that was
23 before Christmas?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
25 TOM HANEY: It would not have been in the
0387
1 wine cellar?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
3 TOM HANEY: On the 25th when you put JonBenet
4 to bed, do you recall seeing this?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
6 TOM HANEY: In the bed.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Huh-uh.
8 TOM HANEY: Do you recall the blanket that is
9 in this previous --
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't. I don't really.
11 TOM HANEY: When you put her down, covered
12 her up.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I know I covered her at least
14 with the sheet, but I don't know that. We tend to get
15 real warm, so, you know, you don't do a lot of tucking
16 it in.
17 TOM HANEY: Probably not the comforter?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
19 TOM HANEY: But the cotton blanket, you know,
20 I think those are pretty -- it is kind of like the ones
21 in the hospital.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: They are not real heavy;
23 right.
24 TOM HANEY: So would that --
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. It would not have been
0388
1 unusual to put the sheet and the blanket on her. I
2 truly can't remember.
3 TRIP DEMUTH: Patsy, why the long underwear?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I remember I was digging
5 around for something. I was trying to find the pink
6 ones she wore the night before. I couldn't put my hand
7 on them right quick. And so I went to these drawers
8 looking for the pajamas, and she was just laying there,
9 so I didn't want to raise her up and get everything off
10 of her to put a long nightgown, so looking for pajamas
11 bottoms to put on her. I couldn't find any, and the
12 long underwear pants were in there drawer, so I got
13 those.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Could you have left that drawer
15 open yourself?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Possibly.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
18 TOM HANEY: Did you have a particular stuffed
19 animal, blanket, toy, whatever, that she took to bed?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: She had a kitten we called
21 Sister Socks. It is a gray and white stuffed animal
22 that she liked the best.
23 TOM HANEY: Inseparable or she just liked --
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, not really inseparable,
25 but she liked that pretty much all the time.
0389
1 TOM HANEY: Some kids can't go to bed --
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No. She wasn't like that.
3 TOM HANEY: Okay. Without something,
4 somebody to talk to, somebody to keep them company.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
6 TOM HANEY: No, okay. Could this have been
7 under the pillow? Would you have noticed anything like
8 that?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I didn't notice the pink
10 shirt under there, you know, so, I just don't remember
11 where that was or the last time she wore it.
12 TOM HANEY: Or where she got it, from whom?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Can't remember.
14 TOM HANEY: Okay. Say on birthdays the kids
15 get a lot of presents, do you keep a list of who gets
16 them what to make sure they send them a thank-you card
17 or whatever?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
19 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you think that is
20 JonBenet's?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, see, that is the thing.
22 If I could see it for real I would know.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: You are not sure at this time?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I'm not really sure, no. The
25 one I'm thinking of had a big picture of Barbie on it,
0390
1 a face, a big face.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: But she had a lot of them, so
4 you know, I just -- I just can't. If I could see it
5 for real, you know, I could touch it and touch it, but
6 look at it up close I might be able to.
7 Regardless, it is totally out of place down
8 there in the wine cellar.
9 TOM HANEY: The last time you were in the
10 wine cellar was Christmas Eve, Christmas day.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably Christmas Eve
12 bringing packages out.
13 TOM HANEY: Would there have been any reason
14 for you to go back in there on Christmas day or did you
15 go back in there?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't believe I did.
17 No.
18 TOM HANEY: Okay. And on Christmas Eve, when
19 you went in there --
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
21 TOM HANEY: -- this wasn't there?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
23 TOM HANEY: How about the blanket?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
25 TRIP DEMUTH: If we could go back, kind of
0391
1 skipped over a couple of pictures here, 145.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: There is the bicycle.
3 TRIP DEMUTH: I have a question for you, 148
4 here.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: These were gifts I think I was
6 holding back for Burke's birthday.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: They are in the red and white
8 and yellow FAO Schwartz wrapping?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Now in 148 there is also this
11 white pocket, do you know what that is?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Huh-uh, it looks like cotton.
13 I don't know.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. It is hard to sort of
15 figure out where all of these pictures are taken, but
16 there is another package over here.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: Does that look out of place or
19 in the proper place?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I had -- you know, I
21 stacked up some packages along there (inaudible).
22 Kicked (inaudible) or something. I kind of have it
23 backed up here.
24 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. So the packages in 146,
25 it looks like it is out of place to you?
0392
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh. Yeah. See, that
2 looks -- the door would be here.
3 TRIP DEMUTH: It is hard.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: So that would be back in here
5 somewhere. I was right in front of the door.
6 TRIP DEMUTH: No. Here are the screens. You
7 see the screens over here, the small screens, so it is
8 more back in this.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I would tuck them
10 there.
11 TRIP DEMUTH: I guess the point is, there
12 wasn't one that was off by itself. They should have
13 all been together.
14 The location in picture 148 is the correct
15 place for all of the packages to have been?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
17 TOM HANEY: Before we go on, could we just
18 talk briefly about the packages, these were presents
19 for whom, the ones that were left in there?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I believe for, you know, I
21 held some back for Burke's birthday which is in
22 January.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
24 TOM HANEY: So that could have been that.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't remember what
0393
1 was in them.
2 TOM HANEY: Would any of these packages be
3 opened?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably. Well, see, these
5 came up, I was at FAO Schwartz in New York when
6 JonBenet and I were up there for a trip, and I had them
7 sent back to Boulder and they wrapped them, free gift
8 wrapping.
9 So like right here it looks like I kind of
10 peeled a little back to see what was in it because I
11 couldn't remember what was in them.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: If the wrapping has been undone
13 partially, that was --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I probably would have done
15 that to peek to see what was in there.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
17 TOM HANEY: Where did you do the bulk of your
18 Christmas shopping, the items you put in there?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, all of this stuff right
20 here was from FAO Schwartz in New York. JonBenet got a
21 bicycle that year. I got a university bicycle, and she
22 got a twin doll which I mail ordered, and --
23 TOM HANEY: Did she get to ride her bike?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: She got to ride her bike.
25 TOM HANEY: Christmas day?
0394
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Out in the back driveway.
2 TOM HANEY: You don't remember the weather
3 that day, was --
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Sunny, nice.
5 TOM HANEY: So did she get much time on it?
6 Was it training wheel equipped or was she able to ride
7 a two wheeler by herself?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think it had training
9 wheels. I think it did.
10 TOM HANEY: Did she get much time on it?
11 Could you give us a glue.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: No idea; riding out in the
13 back.
14 TOM HANEY: But she was able to handle it,
15 she didn't crash or anything?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TOM HANEY: Do you remember shopping before
18 Christmas, did you go with somebody?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Shopping?
20 TOM HANEY: Yeah.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Can't remember. I don't
22 remember what everybody got.
23 TOM HANEY: That was another one of the
24 questions.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Burke got Nintendo 64. That
0395
1 was a big deal. I got that down at some little
2 computer store kind of place down by Perilli's
3 (phonetic), Baseline and 30th or around there.
4 Gameworks. Got that right before Christmas.
5 TOM HANEY: Let's take it easy. What about,
6 do you guys put on a big production, are the presents
7 hidden?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
9 TOM HANEY: A lot of presents out?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
11 TOM HANEY: Big ones, we have the Nintendo
12 and a bike.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
14 TOM HANEY: How about for you, what did --
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I got a bicycle.
16 TOM HANEY: Okay. From John?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: From Santa Claus.
18 TOM HANEY: Do you remember anything else?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: JonBenet gave me a little
20 thing she made at school. I haven't been able to find
21 it yet. I hope I find it. It was a little thing that
22 said, the best Christmas present is me. There was a
23 little picture of her on it.
24 TOM HANEY: That is something that they made
25 at school, okay. Was it for you, for you and John
0396
1 or --
2 PATSY RAMSEY: She gave it to me.
3 TOM HANEY: Okay.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: She had one also, I think, for
5 John.
6 TRIP DEMUTH: JonBenet made that?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes. I haven't seen it.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Does it have a picture of her
9 on it?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I think (inaudible).
11 TOM HANEY: We might have that. We might.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Really? Okay.
13 TOM HANEY: How about John, what did he get?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I made him a painting --
15 golf or whatever it is. He gave me a gold bracelet.
16 I had given JonBenet a little gold bracelet
17 the night of our Christmas party. It had her name
18 engraved on it Christmas day, but she was all dressed
19 up that night, and I gave her that. She got a lot of
20 craft making things, the little bead things you melt
21 together kind of, stuff from Toys R Us.
22 TOM HANEY: Did you shop with somebody, a
23 girlfriend or Priscilla or somebody, let's go Christmas
24 shopping?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Not usually. I can get it
0397
1 done myself.
2 TOM HANEY: Pretty much you are out there by
3 yourself?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
5 TOM HANEY: We talked about your painting
6 supplies, where you did that. How about, where would
7 you get household hardware type of items, those kind of
8 things?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible), I mean light
10 bulbs, that stuff I usually get at the grocery store.
11 TOM HANEY: Do you recall purchasing duct
12 tape and cord (inaudible) in the early part of December
13 of '96?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I never used this type of
15 stuff. I use -- I would buy the multiple rolls of the
16 clear.
17 TOM HANEY: Clear tape?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Clear tape.
19 TOM HANEY: You don't recall making a
20 purchase of either or both of those things, like I
21 said, back in early December, December 2nd of '96?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
23 TOM HANEY: Do you ever recall purchasing
24 black duct tape?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
0398
1 TOM HANEY: Ever have it around the house?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember seeing any.
3 I have my tape in the little drawer by the
4 refrigerator, but it was usually masking tape and the
5 clear tape for the UPS box.
6 TOM HANEY: It seems like you -- there can't
7 be a house in the world that doesn't have duct tape
8 because it repairs everything.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I never liked it because
10 it is so gooey. Isn't it gooey?
11 TOM HANEY: Yeah.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Most of the stuff I would take
13 would be stuff for, you know, stuff for the kids. It
14 would be clear. That is what I got. (Inaudible).
15 TOM HANEY: Okay. How about this cord, that
16 is nylon utility cord?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
18 TOM HANEY: You don't recall purchasing
19 anything like that anywhere else?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
21 TOM HANEY: Do you remember seeing any around
22 the house or attached to anything? Could you have
23 gotten a package tied with such cord?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I usually get UPS and
25 they don't use that anymore. I mean, the post office
0399
1 used it, the twine.
2 TOM HANEY: Not familiar.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Huh-uh.
4 TOM HANEY: Photograph, I think is 178, that
5 is that tray of paint brushes that we talked about
6 earlier.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
8 TOM HANEY: Is that where it is located?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, like I said, Linda took
10 all of the paint stuff out of the butler kitchen there
11 when she took it to the basement. And to tell you the
12 truth, I never really paid too much attention where she
13 put it.
14 TOM HANEY: Okay. I can't tell.
15 TRIP DEMUTH: Here is the wine cellar.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, okay. It could have been.
17 I don't know.
18 TOM HANEY: Do you recognize what that is
19 behind it there?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. That is a painting I
21 did.
22 TOM HANEY: Okay. Pretty much the painting
23 supplies, the materials were together.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, all together.
25 TOM HANEY: Next one is number 182.
0400
1 TRIP DEMUTH: I think it is a piece of an
2 ornament.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: A piece of an ornament? Was
4 182 next to 178?
5 PATRICK BURKE: These are 79 through 81.
6 TRIP DEMUTH: No. This is outside the wine
7 cellar. Here is the wine cellar door. This is inside
8 the wine cellar.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Are these little pieces of
10 glass? What are those? See the little dots?
11 TOM HANEY: All of that has been collected.
12 You kept your Christmas trees in there; right?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. Oh, yeah; right.
14 TOM HANEY: With or without ornaments?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, without mostly, you
16 know, once we took -- maybe -- I mean, she helped me
17 take them down, Linda did. So -- and maybe even her
18 daughter before. So I don't know.
19 TRIP DEMUTH: You would take the ornaments
20 off before you would --
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Usually because the one coming
22 from my bedroom had crystal on it, and you have to haul
23 it down the steps. The little table-top trees, the
24 smaller ones, I would leave decorated because they
25 would be -- kind of pick them up.
0401
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Would you store those in the
2 cellar?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No. The little ones went back
4 in the cellar, by -- beyond the laundry room area. But
5 if I could tell what kind of ornaments it was, I would
6 know because the trees in there would have been the
7 trees from the master bedroom, the play room, probably
8 JonBenet's room. The larger artificial, play room.
9 TRIP DEMUTH: So if you saw that piece of
10 ornament, you might be able to tell where it came from?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: And know which tree it was
12 supposed to be on.
13 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. Do you remember any
14 ornaments in this room when you were going --
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Putting packages in there?
16 TRIP DEMUTH: Any broken glass or anything on
17 the floor that you recall?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I just don't recall.
19 TRIP DEMUTH: Is it that you -- when you say
20 I don't remember, is it that you don't know if it was
21 there or not? I want to clarify.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Well, I mean, it is
23 kind of a scruffy room. It wasn't like a clean floor,
24 so there could have been a broken one there.
25 TRIP DEMUTH: And you didn't know it?
0402
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Didn't pay any attention to
2 it, yeah.
3 TOM HANEY: 197 is the next one.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Play area.
5 PATRICK BURKE: When were these taken?
6 TRIP DEMUTH: I think these were in the
7 preceding days in the following days. It could be
8 Sunday or Monday.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: The toys thrown around?
10 (Inaudible). Skateboard. Oh, it could have been
11 Burke's or one of the Coleman boys, Burke would know.
12 I think the box there -- I'm not sure what that is
13 there for.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: In photo 198.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
16 TOM HANEY: Just a cardboard box.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't know what was
18 in there. (Inaudible).
19 TRIP DEMUTH: Did you look at 199 briefly?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Little toys or something.
21 Yeah. Can't tell.
22 TRIP DEMUTH: Nothing that sticks out
23 inappropriate.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
25 TOM HANEY: The next is 200.
0403
1 PATSY RAMSEY: That is Burke's little board
2 up there. I don't know if that was there or not. He
3 would know. I mean, they were always up there building
4 onto it. Was he shown these, do you know?
5 TOM HANEY: No.
6 TRIP DEMUTH: I think he was not shown this.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: He would probably know if that
8 was, they were always dragging boards up there trying
9 to -- to make something new out of it.
10 TOM HANEY: 201.
11 TRIP DEMUTH: Before we move on to 202, 201
12 there is a blue --
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Bucket thing.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Tell me about that.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: That is -- I put my greens in
16 there, Christmas tree clippings and things in water to
17 keep them fresh.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: Explain that to me.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I fill -- there is a water
20 faucet there, so I filled the blue bucket with water,
21 and put branches, you know like when you trim the
22 Christmas tree you put them down in there to keep them
23 fresh.
24 TRIP DEMUTH: When did you do that?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably when we put the tree
0404
1 up a couple weeks before.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: So there looks like there is
3 something in there; right?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, tree branches.
5 TRIP DEMUTH: So you put that in there?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: The tree branches came from
8 where?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: The Christmas tree.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: The one you had inside.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. The real one.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: Why would you do that?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: To keep them fresh, to keep
14 water in them, in the -- water in the stems, you know.
15 TRIP DEMUTH: Did you plan to use these?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: It is a southern thing.
17 Greens, you prepare the greens with water and take them
18 in the house and you put them on the mantel.
19 TRIP DEMUTH: So were you going to use these
20 greens then.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, those are probably like
22 some leftover ones that probably weren't, you know, I
23 just kept them in case I wanted to freshen up some
24 because they dry out real fast.
25 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
0405
1 PATSY RAMSEY: It is in Southern Living.
2 TOM HANEY: On 202.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the grate over that
4 window.
5 TRIP DEMUTH: This is just in sequence.
6 TOM HANEY: 203, just another shot. 204.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: Could John have cut that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Could have, yeah.
9 TRIP DEMUTH: That is in photo 204 there is
10 some scrape mark toward the bottom of the doorjamb.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Where the dog could have
12 scratched.
13 TRIP DEMUTH: 205.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: That is all chipped out.
15 TOM HANEY: Is that unusual?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks unusual to me. I
17 didn't do it.
18 TOM HANEY: Do you recall though, was this
19 prior damage?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Prior damage, oh --
21 TOM HANEY: Prior to December 26 of 1996.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't say for sure. I don't
23 know. I don't remember that.
24 TOM HANEY: That is that door -- correct me
25 if I am wrong -- leading into the kitchen area.
0406
1 PATSY RAMSEY: The back hall.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: Right to the patio.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
4 TOM HANEY: Do you know who caused that?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: I just don't remember having
6 it.
7 TOM HANEY: Okay. Now there was some
8 information out in the media about damage to the door
9 or something like that.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: This door?
11 TOM HANEY: Well, I assume that that is the
12 one we are talking about, are you familiar with that?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Huh-uh. (inaudible).
14 PATRICK BURKE: If you don't know.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
16 TOM HANEY: 205 we have. 206 is just another
17 shot of it with the scale in it which is the police.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
19 TRIP DEMUTH: Taken that morning. No, it is
20 not. It is somewhere around 100 is when they were
21 taken.
22 TOM HANEY: 207.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the yard, the front
24 yard. I see tracks in here in the snow.
25 TOM HANEY: Do you know what would have
0407
1 caused that?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, unless Burke
3 road his bicycle out there.
4 TOM HANEY: Does that look like the right
5 size for that?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: Was he also riding his bike.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, he would have ridden it.
9 She would not. She was only allowed back on the back
10 most likely, but he was older and was used to riding a
11 bicycle.
12 TOM HANEY: 208.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
14 TOM HANEY: Skip ahead to 242. (Inaudible).
15 TRIP DEMUTH: Look at all those pictures,
16 242, 43 and 44 and 45 together.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the little bathroom in
18 the basement.
19 TOM HANEY: Anything out of place or unusual
20 in those photos?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the bathroom we hadn't
22 utilized very much. These little Christmas decorations
23 were left over from -- I had put those there when we
24 had the home tour two years earlier, because the
25 volunteers used this area and I had a bathroom
0408
1 available.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: That photo 244 was shut, is
3 that how you left them?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that, yes. I would have
5 left that. I left it like that.
6 Now this, I don't know what that is -- why
7 that would be there.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Pointing to like tissue.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: It is like tissue something,
10 because I remember I specifically asked Linda some time
11 in the not-so-distant future to go down and clean that
12 bathroom because I think one of the boys had used the
13 bathroom and not flushed it. It was kind of yucko, so
14 she had gone down there. So I don't know if that is
15 her cleaning rag she left there or what.
16 TOM HANEY: Do you know for a fact that she
17 did clean it, could she have been in there since?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I don't remember that too
19 much about that bathroom.
20 TOM HANEY: When you were present she wasn't
21 in there?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No. The door was usually
23 closed because that -- that door opens right when you
24 came down those steps. (Inaudible). There are a bunch
25 of smears on here.
0409
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Pointing to 205.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
3 TOM HANEY: Do you recall seeing anything
4 like that there before seeing that?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No, because I had that whole
6 downstairs painted, I mean cleaned.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: When was that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, 1994, before that home
9 tour, Christmas home tour.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Who used that bathroom?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: The boys. You know, Burke and
12 Evan were down there playing with the trains. They
13 would go in there and use it.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: What do you mean that they had
15 not flushed that toilet, what do you mean by that?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I think someone had gone
17 to the potty and hadn't flushed it. It was there for
18 several days.
19 TOM HANEY: Are we talking urine?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. It was just
21 reported to me. It was, mom, the bathroom is pretty
22 yucky, and Linda took care of it is the way I think it
23 went.
24 TRIP DEMUTH: How common was it for Evan and
25 Burke to not flush?
0410
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, Burke is pretty well
2 trained, because that is one of my big pet peeves, but
3 Evan I don't know about.
4 TRIP DEMUTH: What does that mean, Patsy,
5 when you say you don't know about?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know whether he
7 flushes regularly.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: That could imply, I don't know
9 about him because he doesn't flush, or I wanted to
10 clear that up.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I would believe
12 it was Evan that used it and didn't flush rather than
13 my son. I would like to believe that.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Was it a more than one-time
15 occasion in this bathroom down there?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: I just remember that one.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: When was that? It doesn't have
18 to be precise, I mean how long before Christmas?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I don't know
20 exactly. I just remember it happening.
21 TRIP DEMUTH: Right before Christmas?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I just can't remember. I just
23 remember the event that there was a dirty bathroom bowl
24 and obviously the boys were down there using it and not
25 flushing.
0411
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know, did Linda clean it
2 up, do you know?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: I -- I am sure she did, but I
4 didn't go down there and double check it.
5 TOM HANEY: Is she usually pretty confident
6 if you give her something?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Had you been in this bathroom
9 at all prior to Christmas of '96?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I hadn't been in there.
11 You can tell I haven't been in there since '94.
12 TOM HANEY: Anything else? The tissue of
13 some kind.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
15 TOM HANEY: 246 now.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible). Is that the hall
17 from here? No.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: That is a closer picture of the
19 wall.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, is it? Okay. It looks
21 dirty to me, that close up.
22 TOM HANEY: 227 then, you just, you can
23 describe because there is a lot of storage there.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. Well, this was kind of
25 back where we keep the craft stuff, like in the
0412
1 cabinets here, the glitter and the construction paper
2 and all that kind of stuff, the ribbon.
3 TOM HANEY: Where is that?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: In the basement. Here is the
5 train room. You kind of turn to the right. Here is
6 the kind of view straight in. This is the construction
7 paper and things like that; paint, paint up there.
8 That window is open there.
9 TOM HANEY: Is that unusual?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, it would be unusual.
11 TOM HANEY: When is the last time you were in
12 the basement?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I was down there on
14 Christmas day at the washer and dryer. I was wrapping.
15 TOM HANEY: Was that window open then?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know because I didn't
17 go in there. I don't know if that is what the suitcase
18 is doing there anyway.
19 TOM HANEY: That is in 248.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: When was this taken, do you
21 know, after everybody had gone down there and checked
22 around?
23 TRIP DEMUTH: There is a photo log. I don't
24 know precisely without the photo log when the photos
25 were taken.
0413
1 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks dark.
2 TOM HANEY: 249.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: I think that is a little crawl
4 space door.
5 TOM HANEY: Access.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Access. But I don't remember
7 where that was in the basement.
8 TOM HANEY: You are looking at 252 now, that
9 is just a little closer photo above where -- was it
10 248, and there is, you pointed out the suitcase.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
12 TOM HANEY: Can you tell us anything about
13 that?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that wasn't one of the
15 suitcases that I normally use. We use the roller ones.
16 I think that is one that John Andrew had brought over
17 from his college stuff, you know, like unpacked and
18 brought the suitcase over to our house, but I didn't
19 think it was in there. I thought it was back in --
20 back there toward the cellar room more, back in the
21 (inaudible).
22 TRIP DEMUTH: Let's pull out a diagram.
23 TOM HANEY: We don't have a basement here.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, somewhere back like kind
25 of over in here, by the -- where the hot water heater
0414
1 area was is another little area. I thought it was more
2 in here. Unless Linda moved it over here when she put
3 the paint stuff there, I don't know. That looks out of
4 place.
5 TOM HANEY: You are thinking it was last in
6 that area between the wine cellar and the bathroom by
7 the stairs.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, that little door there.
9 TOM HANEY: Were there other suitcases or
10 items of John Andrews stored in that area?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Seems like at one time he left
12 a printer there, a printer, a computer printer. I want
13 to say it was down in the corner too like on the
14 counter top there.
15 TOM HANEY: Did you guys kind of give him
16 that particular place to store stuff or --
17 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Just throw it down there
18 with the rest of the junk.
19 TOM HANEY: It could have been anywhere?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. But that does not
21 look -- that doesn't look like where I thought it was.
22 TOM HANEY: You think you last saw it.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Back in the other room.
24 TRIP DEMUTH: Pointing at the suitcase that
25 is pictured in --
0415
1 PATSY RAMSEY: 252.
2 TOM HANEY: Do you know what was stored in it,
3 if anything?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I have no idea.
5 TOM HANEY: Did you ever handle it?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember. I don't
7 remember.
8 TOM HANEY: You might have.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't put it there, let's
10 put it that way. I don't know if I -- I mean, I may
11 have moved it out of my way, but I don't remember
12 specifically moving it or putting it somewhere.
13 TOM HANEY: Did you ever put anything into
14 it, take anything out of it?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I presume it is empty.
16 You know, I think I thought it. Was, he packed the
17 college clothes and brought them in the suitcase or he
18 brought the suitcase out. There is probably nothing in
19 it.
20 TOM HANEY: If there was something in it it
21 would belong to John Andrew then?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
23 TOM HANEY: Did John Andrew have a Dr. Seuss
24 book.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Did John Andrew have a Dr.
0416
1 Seuss book? (Inaudible).
2 TOM HANEY: Or when he was older, like now?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: I hope not. He is supposed to
4 have college books, not Dr. Seuss books.
5 Why would you ask such a question?
6 TOM HANEY: Well, that is because in that
7 suitcase was a Dr. Seuss book.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: What book was it? Did it have
9 any kid's name in it?
10 TRIP DEMUTH: That I don't know. I think it
11 had John Andrews' name in it.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, it did?
13 TRIP DEMUTH: I think. I haven't personally
14 seen it.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible). I don't know.
16 You got me. I don't know.
17 TOM HANEY: Anything else in that photo?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Just that window being open.
19 TRIP DEMUTH: What window is that?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the basement window
21 which is under that grate that we had the picture of
22 earlier.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: Underneath the dining room
24 window.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, the breakfast window.
0417
1 TRIP DEMUTH: The one that leads to the
2 patio.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.
4 TRIP DEMUTH: How many windows are there?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: How many are here?
6 TRIP DEMUTH: Yeah.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks like three.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know if the screens were
9 off or on?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Screens were off, I
11 think.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: No screens on?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't believe so.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Is there some history --
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, one of these windows is
16 the one that John -- John got locked out one time,
17 can't remember, at the lake, I think. And he said he
18 broke a window pane and, you know, he reached in and
19 came in through this window right into the house.
20 TRIP DEMUTH: What did you do after the
21 window was broken, did you have some involvement with
22 that at all?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, yes. When I came back,
24 you know, from the lake, I mean there was glass
25 everywhere all over the floor, and I cleaned out --
0418
1 picked up pieces of glass, you know. He never cleaned
2 it up, obviously, and cleaned it up, and I had Linda
3 sweep down there because the kids, the boys would
4 sometimes play in here.
5 TRIP DEMUTH: Did you clear the area out
6 then? Was it cleared of stuff?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you know, kind of pushed
8 back, but the boys would go down there and play like
9 they are building airplanes.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: What observations did you make
11 about the window when you cleaned up the glass or about
12 that whole area?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, there was one of the
14 panes was broken. I don't remember what it was, but I
15 had asked -- that was another one of the odd jobs to
16 have Linda Huffman (phonetic) and her husband do. He
17 was going to do the odd jobs. I think I asked him to
18 repair that, too, but I don't remember. I don't know
19 whether they did that or not.
20 TRIP DEMUTH: So what else do you remember
21 about that area besides the fact there was a hole in
22 the pane and there was glass on the floor?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: You mean like when I came
24 back?
25 TRIP DEMUTH: Yeah. You were cleaning up
0419
1 down there.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Nothing else, just glass, you
3 know, that I was afraid the kids would get in there.
4 TRIP DEMUTH: What about this mark on the
5 wall?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, gosh, I don't know if I
7 was in there. I think I would have noticed that
8 because I had all that painted.
9 TRIP DEMUTH: I would like you to take the
10 picture out of that sleeve and take your time.
11 PATRICK BURKE: Do you have a better picture
12 of that?
13 TRIP DEMUTH: I don't.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it looks like something
15 scraped that wall to me.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you remember that when you
17 were cleaning up the glass?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't.
19 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you remember it not being
20 there when you cleaned up the glass?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't.
22 TRIP DEMUTH: You talked about John Ramsey
23 coming through that window, do you remember any other
24 times that people were in that window?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
0420
1 TRIP DEMUTH: You did ever have it cleaned
2 out?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
4 TRIP DEMUTH: Did the boys ever play in the
5 window?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean, because there was
7 a grate on there for that purpose so nobody falls in
8 there. If you were going in the window you had to lift
9 the grate out. It was pretty heavy.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Other than when John Ramsey
11 broke into the house whenever, was someone in that
12 window, to your knowledge?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Never to my knowledge.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: What was the back part of the
15 train room used for?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Like flower baskets and
17 decorations and party stuff.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: Did you store Christmas trees
19 back there?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No. No. The Christmas trees
21 were back in the other, you know, behind the shower.
22 TRIP DEMUTH: The storage room beyond the
23 laundry room?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I would occasionally
25 put dried flowers down there; artificial, mostly Easter
0421
1 kind of stuff and Halloween.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know why the window
3 wasn't fixed?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't. Was it not
5 fixed?
6 TRIP DEMUTH: Well, what do you know about
7 that window, the condition of that window on Christmas
8 of '96, have you --
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I just remember a little to do
10 list that Linda Huffman had included fixing that pane
11 in that window.
12 Whether he got to it or not, I don't know
13 because he wasn't able to fix the play room doors, you
14 know, so he didn't get to everything.
15 TRIP DEMUTH: Anything else on this photo,
16 Tom?
17 TOM HANEY: That was 252. So 253.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Decorations.
19 TOM HANEY: Storage.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Nothing.
21 TOM HANEY: 251.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Do you know what that is?
23 TOM HANEY: Is that the access to the crawl
24 space?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know what it is. Is
0422
1 this back the same?
2 TOM HANEY: No. I don't think so, that is
3 the same. Huh-uh.
4 254, five and six.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Toy bins that I brought down
6 from the play room. This is their school stuff, this
7 doll.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Can you see where the glitter
9 is in these photos?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: That little ball of glitter,
11 it would have been in the craft cabinet which was
12 back -- where was it? This one, the paint and all of
13 that.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Referring to photo 248. Okay.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: This was stuff I used for
16 dirty things.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: Nothing out of the ordinary in
18 photo 254, 255 and 56?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
20 TOM HANEY: 263 and 64.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Close ups of those.
22 TOM HANEY: Also appear to be.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible).
24 TOM HANEY: Do one or both of you smoke
25 cigars?
0423
1 PATSY RAMSEY: No one does.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. Were they normally kept
3 there?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, he must -- I don't know.
5 TOM HANEY: Is that taboo in the house to
6 have them?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No. He probably put them in
8 there because it was an airtight place. It was cool.
9 I don't know what you do with cigars.
10 TOM HANEY: A humidor.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: A can.
12 TOM HANEY: Wasn't like he was hiding them
13 from you?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
15 TOM HANEY: Next is 265, 7, 8, so we have
16 more of the presents from the basement and back
17 upstairs with a different --
18 TRIP DEMUTH: Patsy, in photo 265 you can see
19 a tear in the wrapping, that looks normal?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, in many shots that would
21 have been for Burke, so, you know, I am sure I looked
22 at that to see.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: That looks like what you did?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, to hold that back.
25 TOM HANEY: In these shots not only are they
0424
1 a little bit bigger, but we have a little more light on
2 the subject, maybe too much because it kind of washes
3 out the color.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Nothing unusual.
5 TOM HANEY: Nothing except what we talked
6 about earlier. So that is 66, seven and eight.
7 Sixty-nine next.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know what is that on
9 the ground around the door.
10 TOM HANEY: That is fingerprint powder that
11 is spread with a brush, powder to identify areas for
12 prints.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Did you find anything?
14 Were you all there?
15 TOM HANEY: Well, there is a lot things that
16 have been collected and processed, some of which
17 results are back on and some of which they are not or
18 not completely finished.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Definitely looks muffled here.
20 It is not neat, you know. (Inaudible).
21 TOM HANEY: That is on the curtain in 272,
22 and we are talking about the peach color, I think it
23 is, the bow tie thing. 273, the one you are looking at
24 now, a little better photo of that stuffed animal from
25 Christmas.
0425
1 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible).
2 TRIP DEMUTH: You want to use the magnifying
3 glass?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: This looks like the eight ball
5 questions again. Are those socks or something?
6 TRIP DEMUTH: Did JonBenet have socks on when
7 she went to the White's?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. She had her little
9 boots on, her little black boots on.
10 TOM HANEY: The area you are talking about
11 with the stuffed animal, there appear to be other --
12 there is at least a doll, maybe other.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Pillows and things. Yeah,
14 this is the little pillow (inaudible). Her Christmas
15 doll.
16 TOM HANEY: That is 73, 74, 75, and 76 now.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible).
18 TOM HANEY: That I couldn't tell you right at
19 this moment. Do you remember any staining on that
20 pillow the night you put her to bed?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: No. It was dark in there, you
22 know.
23 TOM HANEY: When you put her to bed did you
24 turn on any lights that night, Christmas night.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think so. Maybe. I
0426
1 can't remember. I remember dressing her, her pajamas
2 pants on her. It was dark. I didn't turn on the
3 bright lights because I didn't want to wake her up.
4 TOM HANEY: But back up. John had carried
5 her up and put her on the bed, and then you took it
6 from there?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
8 TOM HANEY: But you never turned on the
9 light?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I probably turned one on in
11 the bathroom looking for the pajamas. I would have
12 been in there.
13 TOM HANEY: How about this pillow, when is
14 the last time in the daytime would you have some time
15 on Christmas day gone in there to put away Christmas
16 presents, to do anything?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.
18 TOM HANEY: How often would say the pillow
19 case would be changed?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: At least once a week.
21 TOM HANEY: Okay. How about the rest of the
22 day, the bottom tucked in sheets.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: At least once a week.
24 TOM HANEY: Was there a particular day of the
25 week that --
0427
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. I mean, some folks are
3 pretty much on a schedule.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I'm pretty laid back.
5 TOM HANEY: How about Linda?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I know she did it once a week.
7 I don't know what day she did it.
8 TOM HANEY: So this particular sheet could be
9 on its last day of the seven or -- the holiday it could
10 be --
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Longer.
12 TOM HANEY: Was she expected to come in that
13 day?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
15 TOM HANEY: 26th.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: She was supposed to come in.
17 She was going to come on Friday. Wednesday was
18 Christmas, so she was off on Christmas. She came
19 Monday, Wednesday and Friday. She was there Monday
20 because she helped me get ready for the party.
21 TOM HANEY: When you were getting ready for
22 the party did she do the laundry?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. We were getting
24 ready for the party, you know.
25 TOM HANEY: Right.
0428
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Downstairs. She didn't come
2 Wednesday because it was Christmas. She was going to
3 come Friday after we had gone, and I left her a check
4 because she (inaudible) cried she wanted money.
5 TOM HANEY: But if she comes Monday,
6 Wednesday and Friday, and obviously doesn't come
7 because of Christmas on Wednesday, we have the sheets
8 on at a minimum, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, so three
9 days.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably.
11 TOM HANEY: The maximum number going back.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe the next Friday.
13 TOM HANEY: Or last Wednesday.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
15 TRIP DEMUTH: Did JonBenet ever have nose
16 bleeds at night?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I remember.
18 Sometimes she might pick her nose, maybe cause it to
19 bleed, but she wouldn't have one of those, you know,
20 dry, you know, to hold her head back kind of thing.
21 TOM HANEY: How are we doing?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know about you, but I
23 am exhausted.
24 TRIP DEMUTH: Can we go off the tape?
25 (Whereupon, a break was taken and an off the record
0429
1 discussion about scheduling occurred.)
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. We are back. It is now
3 again, it is now Thursday, June 25, 1998. The time is
4 approximately 9:20. Same people present as have been
5 for the past two days, Patricia Ramsey, Pat Burke,
6 Ellis Armistead, Trip DeMuth and Tom Haney.
7 First of all, Mrs. Ramsey, how was your night
8 last night? Good night's sleep.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. Fine. Thank you.
10 TOM HANEY: Did you take additional
11 medication last night?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I took 10 milligrams of
13 Prozac, and I actually took some pain medication for my
14 ear, Excedrin for an ear ache.
15 TOM HANEY: How about this morning?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: 20 milligrams of Prozac.
17 TOM HANEY: Anything else?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: A half milligram of Adivan
19 (phonetic).
20 TOM HANEY: How did you feel about yesterday?
21 How was that?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Good. Real good.
23 TOM HANEY: Again, do you think that you are
24 being treated fairly?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Fine. Yes.
0430
1 TOM HANEY: Do you have any additional
2 comments? Yesterday morning we started off with, we
3 had a couple of things, anything come up last night
4 that --
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
6 TOM HANEY: Nothing. Okay.
7 How about, what did you do last night?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I had a little -- my son
9 was visiting in Boulder, so he spent some time trying
10 to get him back to the place we were staying because
11 the media was around the house. That was a whole free
12 for all.
13 And he came back, and he and I watched a
14 little bit of a movie together and had dinner and had a
15 little attorney-client chat.
16 TOM HANEY: We won't go into that.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. That was -- I was
18 pretty tired. My ear was hurting.
19 TOM HANEY: Did you talk to John last night
20 about what transpired yesterday?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, just within the
22 context of the kind of little chat we all had together,
23 but --
24 TOM HANEY: So it is a group thing?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. We were both pretty
0431
1 tired when we got back, so we just -- I don't think we
2 shared much.
3 TOM HANEY: That has not been the practice
4 for the last couple of nights to share what you did?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
6 TOM HANEY: We talked earlier about the
7 surgery that you had, a hysterectomy, it is my
8 understanding as a result of that you are not on any
9 hormones, nothing.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Nothing.
11 TOM HANEY: Prior to or since that surgery,
12 did you discuss with your doctors what kind of -- what
13 kind of changes that you would go through as a result
14 of that?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean, they -- just as
16 long as you are alive, that is a good sign.
17 TOM HANEY: Sure. Absolutely.
18 I mean, that is the prime consideration.
19 Okay, but isn't there --
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I guess I'm not following.
21 TOM HANEY: Well, I'm not obviously up on all
22 of this, but I do know a few years ago my wife was
23 going through some period of time where she was a
24 little short, abrupt or irritable, and as a result, she
25 did have some hormonal medication subsequently and that
0432
1 kind of saw it through.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I never had any hormonal
3 stuff.
4 TOM HANEY: Has anything come up with mood
5 swings? Did the doctors talk to you about that, the
6 possibility of it or --
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
8 TOM HANEY: Have you experienced any of that?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I have not, not prior to
10 this tragedy.
11 TOM HANEY: How about since?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
13 TOM HANEY: You can give me an idea of what
14 might bring something on, the mood swing like that, or
15 how severe it might be.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, for a long time, and
17 just like yesterday, we went into the conference room.
18 I looked out the window and there was a little girl
19 with blond hair and shorts and it looked like JonBenet
20 from the back, and I just get really sad and still
21 crying, you know. I miss her.
22 TOM HANEY: Do you get unexplained mood
23 swings or were you -- reactions.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: You know, if I am sad it is
25 because of that, I lost my precious child, you know.
0433
1 Nothing else.
2 TOM HANEY: Let's continue on.
3 TRIP DEMUTH: Before we do that, yesterday
4 you took the Prozac, right, and Tom asked you if that
5 medicine was affecting your ability to participate.
6 Today you have taken how much Adavan?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: A half a milligram.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Now, and the Prozac.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Right. I was more concerned
11 with whether or not that Adavan medication is affecting
12 your ability to participate.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: No. No.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. Does the Adavan affect
15 your memory at all?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: Did Dr. Booth used to normally
18 prescribe you medications? Did he ever prescribe
19 medications for you?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I think he did. I mean, he is
21 the children's pediatrician. He, I believe, prescribed
22 something for me immediately the day that we discovered
23 JonBenet.
24 TRIP DEMUTH: Had he done that before that?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
0434
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. Thanks, Tom.
2 TOM HANEY: I think, if we could check the
3 notes where we left off yesterday, 273, four, five and
4 six. We talked about the stains on the pillow.
5 Next is 277. Can you describe that? Tell us
6 what that is.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks like her underwear
8 drawer, one of the drawers there in the bathroom
9 cabinet.
10 TOM HANEY: What is in there?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks like underwear, a
12 hair band or something, and a pencil, a pen, a pen back
13 there. (Inaudible). A magic marker or something. I
14 don't know why that would be in there, but --
15 TOM HANEY: And in the normal course there at
16 home would just underwear be in there or would other
17 items be in there, too.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Primarily underwear, but
19 she -- often times things would be on the top and fall
20 down in the drawers. But that be unusual for a pen
21 like that to be in an underwear drawer.
22 TOM HANEY: How about other clothing items,
23 would they end up in there or would they be there?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, yeah, you know, those
25 two or three drawers would be underwear, pajamas, you
0435
1 know. So, you know, they may not get in the exact
2 right drawer every time.
3 TOM HANEY: Could there have been the long
4 underwear.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes. I think I had long
6 underwear.
7 TOM HANEY: Could it or would it have been in
8 that drawer or (inaudible).
9 PATSY RAMSEY: This drawer was more shallow
10 than the next one down, I think. So I think -- I
11 think, I don't remember exactly, but I would think that
12 those, you know, drawers would have been a more deep
13 drawer, a little more shallow for light weight things.
14 TOM HANEY: 278 there.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. This is the bathroom.
16 It looks like the bathroom rug, the bathroom, the guest
17 room there, John Andrews room. A little notebook and
18 some towels. I don't know what that is.
19 Is that the binding on the book, that kind of
20 greenish?
21 TOM HANEY: 279.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: That looks like a drawer.
23 That is the drawer in the guest -- in John Andrew's
24 room.
25 TRIP DEMUTH: What is the red and black item?
0436
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I can't tell.
2 I don't know.
3 TOM HANEY: Go ahead.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I was going to say, do you
5 have a picture of it blown up?
6 TOM HANEY: No, we don't.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
8 TOM HANEY: Can you tell us, identify the
9 other items that are in there.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't. This (inaudible).
11 John Andrew did (inaudible), that he would hang up.
12 Looks like just clothes in there. Can't tell.
13 TOM HANEY: Okay. How about 280, and we can
14 probably skip that one quickly.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I don't know what that
16 is.
17 TOM HANEY: Is that the next sequence. Yeah.
18 Some of these are going to be gone over quickly, and we
19 will skip over to 281. There is none. So we go to
20 282, which is a photo 283.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: That is a drawer with some
22 markers in it. I don't know what drawer it is.
23 TOM HANEY: But markers would be distributed
24 many places?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
0437
1 TOM HANEY: 284.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: This looks like a little table
3 in my dressing room with stuff on it. This is,
4 (inaudible). Earrings.
5 TOM HANEY: Anything out of the ordinary, out
6 of place, unusual?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No, kind of a catch all.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: What about the note pad?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: It is just -- this is, you
10 know, I would buy stacks of those in office places and
11 just use them. I don't know what that -- scribbles.
12 TOM HANEY: And 285.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: That is a makeup bag, like a
14 video and video. Can't tell what it is. I don't know
15 where it is. A wooden something.
16 TOM HANEY: There is no previous photo that
17 kind of --
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Goes with that.
19 TOM HANEY: Yeah.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know where it is.
21 TOM HANEY: Okay. And 286 would be next.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the John Andrew's room
23 again, that fabric.
24 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know what piece of
25 furniture that is that the fabric is on?
0438
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't tell. A chair
2 covering it when they were tossing pillows and the dust
3 ruffle and the draperies coming down. (Inaudible). I
4 don't know. A little purple bow or something.
5 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
6 TOM HANEY: This should be 287. I don't see
7 a number on it from here.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: That is John, John's desk in
9 our bedroom. Fax machine. (Inaudible).
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Is that normal?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, I guess. I don't know.
12 We never really kept it (inaudible).
13 TRIP DEMUTH: What about the drawer open,
14 does that happen on occasion.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, he was pretty good about
16 closing his drawers. That is kind of -- kind of
17 unusual. It was pretty tight quarters in there. If he
18 left something open, he would bump into it.
19 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know what was in that
20 drawer?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: No. It looks like a roladex
22 in there. He might know.
23 TOM HANEY: Briefly, the camera, did you have
24 more than one camera?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
0439
1 TOM HANEY: Do you know what that was used
2 for, anything in particular or --
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean, that was a lens
4 to a -- you know, a bigger, a heavier camera. I
5 usually use a little clicky one.
6 TOM HANEY: Okay. 288.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: A drawer, it looks like a
8 drawer in Burke's room. School work and stuff, a
9 chair, clothes on the floor.
10 TOM HANEY: But nothing unusual?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
12 TOM HANEY: 289.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: This looks like a drawer. I
14 think this was a little chest of drawers in Burke's
15 room. Junk stuff in there, note pad (inaudible).
16 Crayons.
17 TOM HANEY: 290.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: This is a shoe book. This is
19 a -- looks like one of those surgical masks kind of
20 thing. We had to wear that when I had chemo. They
21 were all over the house so I wouldn't get germs from
22 kids or whatever.
23 John Andrew's picture. Burke's little art
24 work there. A cassette.
25 TOM HANEY: 291.
0440
1 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the dining room. The
2 buffet kind of thing. (Inaudible). That could have
3 been -- is this it?
4 TRIP DEMUTH: Look at photo 292.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: I think that was the book that
6 Santa Claus read from. I don't know for sure, but
7 that --
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Is that where you left it?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably. I mean, in that
10 general vicinity. He was sitting in a chair just
11 inside the living room, and I was in the dining room
12 sort of feeding him presents to give out.
13 TOM HANEY: That would have been a close
14 proximity?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. Yeah.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: Looking at 292.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. This is a little poem.
18 Linda used (inaudible) this little on top, I added kind
19 of as an individual, Linda and Arionna (phonetic), the
20 cleaning lady and her daughter, were helping me, you
21 know, and Santa Claus came. I said, aren't you
22 staying.
23 So I got them a little gift, you know. I
24 went to the basement. I got some little something to
25 give them.
0441
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Where in the basement?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably near where my
3 wrapping stuff was by the laundry room area.
4 TOM HANEY: You had a few extra things
5 just --
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Extra little stuff. I think I
7 had a blouse I was going to give Linda, so I just
8 wrapped it quickly so everybody could have something
9 from Santa Claus.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: You are talking about the
11 little white --
12 PATSY RAMSEY: The white note on top of the
13 typed --
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Poem, in photo 292.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. And Eric was a boy
16 that Fernie had brought kind of last minute.
17 TOM HANEY: Another unexpected.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I think that was
19 Susan's mother.
20 TRIP DEMUTH: How old was Eric?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: You know, the boy's age, 10,
22 11, 9 or 10.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: The last name?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Eric -- I think Luke had a
25 couple friends named Eric. So it was either Eric -- I
0442
1 think there was an Eric Evans or something like that.
2 Eric Clarkston.
3 I can't remember which one was which.
4 TRIP DEMUTH: He was Luke Fernie's friend.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. Anything else?
6 TOM HANEY: No. 293.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. This is the area back
8 by the bar area, you know, back there.
9 TOM HANEY: That is on the main floor?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Like the base of that spiral
11 staircase.
12 TOM HANEY: Right.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible). It looks like
14 what (inaudible). This is -- I think this is his the
15 guys had given him. (Inaudible).
16 TOM HANEY: Okay.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: This is like a basket of junk
18 there. What is that, do you know? A candle back
19 there. Can't tell.
20 TOM HANEY: How about there?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: It could be wine or something.
22 This is where we kept the bar things down here.
23 TOM HANEY: Okay. So the stain on the white
24 tile that is kind of a dark reddish, dark brownish
25 stain.
0443
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: Say you poured wine there.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes. The liquor cabinet was
4 in there on the 23rd when we had the people in pouring
5 drinks there. (Inaudible).
6 TOM HANEY: You can't identify, you said this
7 dark --
8 PATSY RAMSEY: No, can't tell.
9 TOM HANEY: Now we are up to 326, it is just
10 one photo on that page.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: This is on John's desk, a
12 picture of Linda and John -- looks like his bible.
13 TOM HANEY: Do you have any -- do you have
14 different bibles.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, we have a lot of bibles.
16 TOM HANEY: Okay.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know if they are
18 different.
19 TOM HANEY: You said it is his as opposed to
20 being ours or yours.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I see what you mean. Well,
22 yeah. I think it was his on his desk.
23 TOM HANEY: Kept on his desk?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
25 TOM HANEY: Is that where he normally had it
0444
1 or where it was normally kept.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. He would read it there.
3 TOM HANEY: You said you had other bibles.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
5 TOM HANEY: Did you have one somewhere else
6 that you particularly read out of?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: I had a red, kind of red
8 leather one that I would use.
9 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you know John's habit
10 as far as reading the bible, was he cover to cover
11 or --
12 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't know. I don't
13 really know his habits.
14 TOM HANEY: Okay.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: With that.
16 TOM HANEY: Could it have been cover to cover
17 or at random, depends on --
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
19 TOM HANEY: Do you know if it would be left
20 open to a particular page for a particular reason.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
22 TOM HANEY: Now, in the house in addition to
23 several bibles, you had a ton of books. Let's take a
24 couple of minutes and talk about some of those, some
25 which you may know something about, maybe you don't.
0445
1 How about the book Mind?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
3 TOM HANEY: Do you recall that? Do you
4 recall seeing it around the house?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Huh-uh.
6 TOM HANEY: You were not reading.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
8 TOM HANEY: It is a book by John Douglas.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
10 TOM HANEY: Do you know who he is?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: John Douglas I know.
12 TOM HANEY: Okay. How about everybody in
13 your room on your bedroom dresser there was a book by
14 David Pilgram (phonetic), a Danish book.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Not good at remembering
16 authors.
17 TOM HANEY: I think this was in Danish. Do
18 you read different languages?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
20 TOM HANEY: Would John, does he?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: No. It was written in Danish?
22 TOM HANEY: That is my understanding.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: Yeah.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: What kind of book?
25 TOM HANEY: I don't read it.
0446
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. Not familiar.
2 TOM HANEY: How about a book called Camp Fire
3 Stories?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Camp Fire Stories, I think
5 that is one of the kids' books.
6 TOM HANEY: Was it?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: I think so.
8 TOM HANEY: I don't think it is probably a
9 kid book.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: All right. Oh, the kids song
11 around camp fires, ghost story books.
12 TOM HANEY: Maybe that book -- okay. By the
13 way, if it doesn't mean anything to you --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
15 TOM HANEY: How about Whirlwind by Clavel
16 (phonetic).
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't read it.
18 TOM HANEY: How about What Wives Wish Their
19 Husbands Knew About Women?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: My husband's. No.
21 TOM HANEY: You didn't.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
23 TOM HANEY: So would these be John's if they
24 were in there and not yours?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I mean, he had
0447
1 a lot of books, but I don't know.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. How about a book called
3 Why johnny Can't Tell Right From Wrong?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. That was about -- my
5 dad gave me that. That was about education, the school
6 system.
7 TOM HANEY: How about The Sensuous Man?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I heard of that. I don't
9 remember reading it.
10 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you remember, did you
11 buy it or John buy it?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: If I remember right, I didn't
13 buy it. I know I didn't buy it.
14 Do you know if it was paper back or --
15 TOM HANEY: I think it was a hard bound.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: I don't know.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I can't say.
18 TOM HANEY: How about The Day After Tomorrow
19 was the book title?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Was that a James Bond movie or
21 something? (Inaudible). James Bond.
22 TOM HANEY: Where he dies or something.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
24 TOM HANEY: I don't think there is any
25 connection.
0448
1 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I don't know. I can't
2 remember that.
3 TOM HANEY: What kind of reading did you do?
4 Are you a Tom Clancey, Steven King?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
6 TOM HANEY: What kind of books?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: To tell you the truth, I don't
8 know that I read all that much. I mean, I read a lot
9 of magazines and that kind of thing. I read the
10 Mitsford (phonetic) books, but I think that was after
11 Susan Stine got me those.
12 TOM HANEY: What is that?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: It is a series of books about
14 a small town priest and they are just really sweet. It
15 is hard to find a book that doesn't have something to
16 do with murder or something like that, you know. These
17 were very nice.
18 TOM HANEY: And that is what you prefer now.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
20 TOM HANEY: You said you read a lot of
21 magazines, what?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Southern Living, Southern
23 Accent kind of stuff, decorating kind of.
24 TOM HANEY: Anything else? Did you have
25 regular subscriptions to those?
0449
1 PATSY RAMSEY: No. John got flying
2 magazines.
3 TOM HANEY: But you just pick them up at the
4 grocery store or whatever?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
6 TOM HANEY: How about movies, what is the
7 last movie prior to this that you had seen?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, dear.
9 TOM HANEY: Maybe we should distinguish, at a
10 theater. Do you go to the movies a lot?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't go to the movies too
12 much. We would usually -- well, we didn't rent many
13 movies. The kids watched a lot of movies, the videos
14 in their room; put the big screen up in our room.
15 TOM HANEY: You had TVs and recorders, pretty
16 much spread around.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. Gosh, I can't remember
18 the last movie. One time it could have been close to
19 Christmas, we got (inaudible). The movie about this
20 guy decorating his house. I mean, it was about
21 Christmas, and he put all the lights on in his house
22 and he turns the light on and the whole town is blacked
23 out. It was hysterical. I don't know the name.
24 TOM HANEY: These were more for the kids.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No. For us too. I don't
0450
1 remember what it was. I just remember that one scene.
2 Anybody know the movie? His whole house was all
3 decorated for Christmas and he was all excited. He
4 plugged it in and turned it on, the whole city dimmed
5 because he had so much, you know.
6 TOM HANEY: Okay.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: I think we saw that around
8 Christmas. I don't know.
9 TOM HANEY: So I guess what you are saying is
10 the movies mainly were for the kids.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
12 TOM HANEY: And can you think of any that you
13 would have rented for yourself?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: We saw that one with Mel
15 Gibson. It was like set in Ireland about the Irish
16 war.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: Braveheart.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, Braveheart.
19 TOM HANEY: Scotland.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: One of those places over
21 there. That was real good. It was real long, we
22 thought. I remember that one.
23 TOM HANEY: Whose choice was that?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: John. He and Burke usually go
25 pick them out. I usually fell asleep. He loves
0451
1 like -- what is the one, Andrew Longqueen, all of the
2 old movies. We get a lot of those.
3 TRIP DEMUTH: Like Humphrey Bogart?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I mean, he loved that
5 one.
6 TRIP DEMUTH: Who is he?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: John. I would fall asleep.
8 (Inaudible). He would usually pick the movies and I go
9 to sleep, usually fall asleep (inaudible).
10 TOM HANEY: How about things like Dirty
11 Harry?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
13 TOM HANEY: Speed.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I think I might have seen that
15 on an airplane. Is that about some bus or something
16 that loses the brakes?
17 TOM HANEY: I think so.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I think I watched that on an
19 airplane.
20 TOM HANEY: Okay. Now, at our house I am
21 getting the Dirty Harry, the James Bond, all of those,
22 and my wife wants to watch Sleepless in Seattle. She
23 gets that and I fall asleep. So do you put John to
24 sleep with some of your choices?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No because I never -- I don't
0452
1 think I picked them very much. He and Burke would get
2 them.
3 TOM HANEY: Where did they get them?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Blockbuster.
5 TOM HANEY: Did they get them anywhere else?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: The little video place down
7 the -- in the little shopping center on Robinson.
8 Sometimes I think we get some there.
9 TOM HANEY: You know that as far as Speed and
10 Dirty Harry, and I think there is some other movies
11 that even John Andrew had made some mention about the
12 different words, phrases, and we talked about that a
13 little bit the other day, that some of that stuff seems
14 to come into the ransom note.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: We were talking about that?
16 No, I have never seen Dirty Harry, so I don't know.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: That surprises me, because I
18 mean, we are the same age, approximately, and I thought
19 everyone at our age group has seen Dirty Harry.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: You must be a lot older than
21 me. I don't know.
22 TRIP DEMUTH: Clint Eastwood.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think I have ever seen
24 Dirty Harry.
25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Anything else.
0453
1 TRIP DEMUTH: I brought that photo out
2 because I want to know, this is 287 and 226 are of the
3 bible. Does it look unusual to have the bible open
4 like that? Some people leave it open all the time.
5 Other people like to have their desk tops cleared up.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: John is pretty finicky about
7 his desk top, you know. He -- yeah, I would think he
8 would not leave it like that. I never went in there
9 that much, so I didn't pay attention. My bathroom was
10 around back here.
11 TRIP DEMUTH: Well --
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I would be surprised that he
13 would leave that open.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: I don't want so much to know
15 what you would think it would be. Do you have a memory
16 of how the bible was on top of the desk usually?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I have no memory of that.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: Also, it seemed to me that you
19 had a lot of books in your house, where did all of the
20 books come from?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Just, I mean, John has been an
22 avid reader ever since I have known him. I think we
23 got some books from his father when his father retired
24 and remarried and they consolidated households. We got
25 a whole bunch of their stuff. I think a lot of some of
0454
1 the older books came from him.
2 We just got boxes of books, you know.
3 TRIP DEMUTH: What would you do with the
4 boxes of books?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: I put them in the bookcases
6 around, you know. I mean, it is like from when we were
7 first married, books. John used to get to get books
8 for birthdays and whatnot.
9 TRIP DEMUTH: Who did the books primarily
10 belong to? I mean, were they yours or his?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I mean --
12 TRIP DEMUTH: I mean, in terms of who would
13 read them.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: We both read some, some were
15 mine and his. Burke had a ton of books. JonBenet had
16 books. I mean, we had a lot of books, but it doesn't
17 mean that you would show me something specifically who
18 read this and who read that, I couldn't -- probably, I
19 could probably remember or John could probably
20 remember. Was that --
21 TOM HANEY: We talked yesterday about you
22 leaning over John while he read the note on the floor,
23 you said now you wear the reading glasses, that morning
24 you didn't have them.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
0455
1 TOM HANEY: How would you -- how bad was your
2 reading then or your vision I mean? Could you see the
3 note on the floor in front of him?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I still have good
5 vision. It is just at night and when I really want
6 to -- these are really magnification, but it does help
7 a little bit.
8 TOM HANEY: If this is on the floor while it
9 was for him and you were leaning over, would you be
10 able to read that from about the position you would
11 have been in?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I can read that.
13 TOM HANEY: What does it say?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Alex Hunter, district
15 attorney, Boulder County. Dear Alex.
16 TOM HANEY: Would that have been about the
17 way you leaned over that morning?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I think I was getting
19 the phone and, you know.
20 TOM HANEY: You were not crawling over his
21 shoulder?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
23 TOM HANEY: We left off, I think, with 376,
24 the bible. Now 377.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: That looks like the counter
0456
1 top of the basement bathroom (inaudible). Tissue or
2 something. I don't know what that would be.
3 (Inaudible).
4 TOM HANEY: That is which bathroom?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: I think this is the basement,
6 the little bathroom there in the basement. I mean, it
7 is the only one that had -- the other ones had
8 different counter tops.
9 TOM HANEY: Okay. So would that be normal or
10 be expected there?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I just -- I just told
12 you, you know, the boys usually -- it looks like Burke
13 has been in there or somebody was there with an
14 airplane in there. But I don't know what would be
15 blue. I just -- I didn't go down there much, if ever.
16 TOM HANEY: How about 378?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: This is JonBenet's floor, her
18 pants.
19 TOM HANEY: Do you recall those particular
20 pants, when she would have worn those last?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Not for sure. Probably
22 recently because they are dropped in the middle of the
23 floor, but I don't remember exactly.
24 TOM HANEY: They are kind of inside out.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
0457
1 TOM HANEY: 379 is a close up of it. It
2 appears they are stained.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
4 TOM HANEY: Is that something that JonBenet
5 had a problem with?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well she, you know, she was at
7 age where she was learning to wipe herself and, you
8 know, sometimes she wouldn't do such a great job.
9 TOM HANEY: Did she have accidents, if you
10 will, in the course of the day or the night, as opposed
11 to just bed wetting?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Not usually, no, huh-uh. That
13 would probably be more from just not wiping real well.
14 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you know how long those
15 would have been in that position in 378 on the floor in
16 there?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: It depends when she wore them
18 last.
19 TOM HANEY: Again, do you recall?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.
21 TOM HANEY: On Christmas day were you in that
22 bathroom at all?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Very likely, but I can't say
24 for sure.
25 TOM HANEY: Had you been in there that day,
0458
1 would you have done something with them?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I got, you know -- that
3 night I got -- I know I got the long Johns for her out
4 of that bathroom.
5 TOM HANEY: Right, out of one of the draws in
6 there.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
8 TOM HANEY: Do you recall seeing those on the
9 floor that night when you got the --
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
11 TOM HANEY: -- underwear.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: They could have been there. I
13 don't know.
14 TOM HANEY: Could have.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Could have been there, yes.
16 Don't know for sure.
17 TOM HANEY: Is it possible that some point
18 during the night she would have gotten up and put those
19 on or thrown them down there or changed in some way;
20 trying to account for those being there.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I just -- I can't imagine
22 that. No, because I put those -- she was zonked out
23 asleep, so I put her to bed. And she had those, she
24 had worn the black velvet ones to Priscilla's.
25 What she had on earlier that day, I just
0459
1 can't remember. It might have been those. I just
2 can't remember. Could have taken those off, you know,
3 gotten the dress to go to Priscilla's and then left
4 them there.
5 TOM HANEY: When she was out riding her bike,
6 do you remember, think back, look back at what she was
7 wearing.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Can't remember. (Inaudible).
9 Envelope.
10 TOM HANEY: I don't know. But it is
11 obviously after these have been picked up and stretched
12 out for a photograph just -- it could be a
13 (inaudible). Evidence. And 380.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: That looks like back down
15 there to the kitchen -- the bar kind of door.
16 Sunglasses, mail, (inaudible).
17 TOM HANEY: Is there anything in particular
18 kept in that drawer?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: No. We had a ton of junk
20 drawers.
21 TOM HANEY: That is what it appears to be?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
23 TOM HANEY: Okay. And you are looking at
24 three -- well, let's see, 73 it is not significant.
25 374 is a close up the golf clubs in the basement.
0460
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: Whose are they?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: John's, I guess. I don't
4 know.
5 TOM HANEY: He wasn't an avid golfer?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Not really. I think, I know
7 he had some Ping golf clubs. That is one of his bags,
8 too. So I don't know. I wasn't paying --
9 TRIP DEMUTH: On 374 you can see the card
10 table. Tell us what it looks like there, what you can
11 see on the card table.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: The folded legs, there is a
13 sticker on the bottom.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. It is up against.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Up against the door.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: Is that normal?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. You know, we
18 just about that time of year, we start -- this table,
19 this table had been something I was using up in the
20 painting area when I was in that back kitchen there.
21 So when Linda brought that stuff down there, maybe she
22 just put it there.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: Was that --
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Because they --
25 TRIP DEMUTH: Was that door ever closed?
0461
1 PATSY RAMSEY: It was normally open.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible).
4 TOM HANEY: How about 375, just a close up
5 again, and 376.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: That looks like that might be
7 that little sink in the basement. Yeah, the sink in
8 the basement. I think that is the sink in the
9 basement, yeah.
10 TOM HANEY: Nothing out of the ordinary?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
12 TOM HANEY: 381.
13 TRIP DEMUTH: Take this out.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Junk drawer. (Inaudible).
15 Golf ball it looks like to me. Tape. (Inaudible),
16 maybe. Junk.
17 TOM HANEY: Another --
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Pen in the junk drawer. Can't
19 tell where it is, either in the kitchen or in the bar
20 area.
21 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know who that tape would
22 belong to?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't. (Inaudible).
24 John would know better than me. I never used it. I
25 always used the clear stuff.
0462
1 TOM HANEY: 382. Try to keep them in order.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: That looks like the top of the
3 bar.
4 TRIP DEMUTH: Which bar?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: The little bar area there
6 below the staircase, the circular stairs. John's
7 office or something, basket full of whatever, mail. I
8 don't know.
9 TRIP DEMUTH: 383.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: The same basket with a pen in
11 it.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: That wouldn't be unusual?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean, you know, even
14 the marker, the pens, they were all over the place.
15 TRIP DEMUTH: What about 384?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible). Something
17 hanging over the wall up there by the laundry to dry.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you recognize what they are?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks like pajamas or
20 something. It looks like Burke's pajamas.
21 TRIP DEMUTH: May be tights.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: You mean leggings or
23 something?
24 TRIP DEMUTH: Right.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Can't tell whether they are
0463
1 adult or children.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: So you can't tell from that
3 photo what they are?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
5 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. 385, which is up here.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: That is JonBenet's sweater.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: The one we saw in the bedroom?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
9 TRIP DEMUTH: Does that have that blue item
10 in the top of that photo, can you recognize it from
11 that? No.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks like it is some kind
13 of a bag with a luggage tag on it or something.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you have any idea?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible).
16 TRIP DEMUTH: All right. Go back here. 386,
17 do you recognize those articles of clothing?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: This is her little velvet
19 belt.
20 TRIP DEMUTH: That is photo 386, it is the
21 article of clothing on the right of the picture. What
22 belt?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Little Gap belt.
24 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: She would have worn to the
0464
1 White's. I can't tell where the (inaudible). The ones
2 that (inaudible). Zip up. These kind of look like a
3 plastic waist. I can't tell.
4 TRIP DEMUTH: All right.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: What is in the towel?
6 TRIP DEMUTH: Is that JonBenet's mattress
7 that goes around that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably, yeah. Yeah, because
9 I had to fasten it (inaudible).
10 TRIP DEMUTH: I think it was taken after, so
11 you are seeing things that may have been changed.
12 (Inaudible).
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. 387 may be nothing more
15 than just miscellaneous laundry, but I want you to look
16 at it. Tell us if there is anything in there that
17 sticks out.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible).
19 TRIP DEMUTH: We don't need you to identify
20 anything. I want you to look at the photo. The same
21 with -- I think it would be, let's make sure, it is
22 buried, 388. Look at it, but look at the photo.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible).
24 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. 389, I believe we looked
25 at that from another angle before. Anything you want
0465
1 to add?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
3 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. 400 we've looked at
4 before, a different angle.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. That is down in the
6 basement. It is like cotton or something.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know what that is?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know why cotton would
9 be there.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: You don't recognize it?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: It doesn't mean anything to
13 you?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
15 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. Tom.
16 TOM HANEY: Do you ever remember seeing it in
17 there?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
19 TOM HANEY: Could it have come off of
20 something?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: It could have come off -- well
22 the Christmas tree is in there, but I don't know if
23 they had cotton on them.
24 TOM HANEY: Did you use any kind of cotton
25 batting like, or it appears to be a fairly big piece,
0466
1 not a real small piece like an Aspirin bottle.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't know. I can't
3 think of.
4 TOM HANEY: Anywhere, any decorating or
5 crafts or --
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't think of any.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: Did you have any Santa suits?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I had Santas. I did have a
9 Santa suit. I stuffed the Santa sometimes.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. Where was that?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: That should have been back in
12 the Christmas room back, you know, in the shower back
13 in there.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: If you walked past the laundry
15 room, the shower to the storage room is at the end of
16 that hallway, the room it would be in.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Right there would be kind of a
18 beard, but I don't know it was made out of cotton. It
19 was kind of more like synthetic.
20 TRIP DEMUTH: That was -- the Santa suit was
21 never in the window sill.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Not to my knowledge.
23 TOM HANEY: 410.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: That looks like a baseball
25 bat. What is that? It looks like --
0467
1 TRIP DEMUTH: It is on the -- that photograph
2 was taken on the north side of this up by the butler
3 kitchen door. Was it the Givens that lived on that
4 side of house?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, really. That is unusual.
6 That is unusual.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: Why is that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: It is not unusual for the kids
9 to leave their stuff laying around, but they wouldn't
10 have had it over there. It would have been -- remember
11 all of the toys laying under the swing set? It would
12 be that area. So that is -- that is very unusual.
13 TRIP DEMUTH: They never took their toys on
14 that side of the house?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Nobody hardly went over there.
16 They were living there.
17 TOM HANEY: Okay. The boys --
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Run around, I know.
19 TOM HANEY: Would they end up playing over
20 there, or do you know, is there any place they wouldn't
21 go outside?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you are right. There is
23 probably no place they wouldn't go, but it would be
24 highly unusual, is what I'm saying, for a baseball bat
25 to be there, because there is not that much space over
0468
1 there. I mean, if they hit a ball and bat, it was
2 usually over where the patio is in that, you know, that
3 lake there along the dining room window, that area.
4 TOM HANEY: How about the bat itself, does
5 that look --
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I can't say for sure.
7 Burke would probably know.
8 TOM HANEY: Do you know how many bats he
9 might have had? Would he have had more than one?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think so. I mean, I
11 think that looks metal. Metal bats are pretty -- I
12 mean, they are not cheap. So I can't imagine -- I
13 don't think he had more than one, if he had one.
14 TOM HANEY: But he did have one?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: It seems like he had one, but
16 I can't say for sure it was that one.
17 Like I said, he would know. I'm sure he
18 would know. He might know if they ever played over
19 there, but that bat seems weird to me; yeah, very
20 strange. And I can't imagine -- what is this? Like a
21 bench or something? Where is this?
22 PATRICK BURKE: It looks a little side --
23 TOM HANEY: I think it is sort of the edging
24 of the house.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: When they quit playing they
0469
1 throw it on the ground. I can't imagine anybody would
2 be neat enough to lay it up on anything like that if
3 they were over there. That just -- that just
4 doesn't -- that is something.
5 TRIP DEMUTH: Who played baseball with Burke
6 in your yard?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Evan. Mostly Evan.
8 (inaudible). The guy from nextdoor that was
9 occasionally over there, Scott, on our side or their
10 side, I don't know.
11 TRIP DEMUTH: Did they have their own
12 baseball stuff they brought over?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I didn't pay
14 that much attention.
15 TOM HANEY: Okay.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Did anybody take hand prints
17 off of that, do you know?
18 TOM HANEY: I believe it was recovered.
19 TRIP DEMUTH: We have that, yeah.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Because that looks -- that
21 just doesn't --
22 TOM HANEY: That was 410. Now we move to
23 413, which is just the Boulder police photo ID, and
24 then 414.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Didn't we see this yesterday?
0470
1 TOM HANEY: I think we did, but we saw the
2 smaller photo, and I don't believe it was nearly as
3 large.
4 TRIP DEMUTH: I remember telling you we would
5 see a better picture later.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. This doesn't look --
7 TOM HANEY: You started to describe
8 something.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: That little ball there, it is
10 kind of like a little cereal bowl, but it has this huge
11 spoon sticking out of it, and this doesn't look right.
12 It looks kind of (inaudible). And that is -- I don't
13 know what this is, a glass or something. But it looks
14 like it has a tea bag in there, and I don't know who
15 would make tea with the tea bag hanging out of there,
16 if it is a tea bag. Hard to tell.
17 TOM HANEY: We have a couple more photos.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Do you know what was in there?
19 TOM HANEY: We will come to closer ones.
20 Here is another shot here in 415.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Oh, I see. That does
22 look like a tea bag, doesn't it?
23 TOM HANEY: It was taken on the 29th
24 apparently. That is just a guess based on the Boulder
25 police.
0471
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you know, there were a
2 lot of people in that house that morning fixing stuff.
3 Maybe some -- but I don't have tea like that with a tea
4 bag.
5 TOM HANEY: Which dining room?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the breakfast room off
7 the kitchen. I didn't mean to interrupt you.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Where would people sit? Is
9 that where you make your meals normally?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
11 TRIP DEMUTH: Which meals would you eat
12 there?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, dinner usually. We
14 usually ate breakfast at the little counter at
15 different times in the kitchen.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. What about lunch?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Lunch would be there.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: On the counter in the kitchen,
19 what about snacks?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Counter.
21 TRIP DEMUTH: So you only ate dinner in this
22 room then?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
24 TRIP DEMUTH: Did you have seats that
25 everybody gravitated to?
0472
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: Could you tell us which seat?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: This is mine.
4 TRIP DEMUTH: The one on the right of the
5 table as you look at photo 415.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: This is John's.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: On the left of the table.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Burke's.
9 TRIP DEMUTH: Burke is the closest to us in
10 picture 415, and JonBenet sat in the chair furthest
11 from us in photo 415. That would be the chair closest
12 to the kitchen; right?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
15 TOM HANEY: As we get some close ups, more
16 close ups here in 416 and 417.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
18 TOM HANEY: You can see the items that you
19 identified earlier.
20 PATRICK BURKE: This is probably in the 12/29
21 roll.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: That is definitely a tea bag.
23 That is weird. Like I said, there were a lot of people
24 around that morning.
25 TOM HANEY: When was the last time you recall
0473
1 that table being cleaned off?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: After -- well, we would have
3 eaten pancakes together at that table on Christmas
4 morning. And then I would have cleaned the table up.
5 TOM HANEY: Okay. In the course of having
6 the pancake breakfast, would a glass or a bowl like
7 that (inaudible).
8 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I can't tell what that
9 is.
10 TOM HANEY: We talked earlier this week about
11 lunch, could you recall what would have been on the
12 menu for lunch?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
14 TOM HANEY: Would it have been a bowl or a
15 glass?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TOM HANEY: Would you have eaten there for
18 lunch?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: No, because I think we ate a
20 late breakfast, because of -- I'm not sure we had lunch
21 that day because we probably, you know, do Christmas,
22 and then we had a big pancake breakfast, and then we
23 were going, you know, 4:00 or 5:00 to the White's for
24 dinner, so we probably didn't even have lunch.
25 TOM HANEY: Maybe, is that maybe why you
0474
1 didn't recall?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: That is very likely why I
3 don't recall.
4 TOM HANEY: Okay.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Somebody else did this,
6 because I would never put a spoon that big in a bowl
7 like that, and I can't tell what that is, whether that
8 is grits or apples or cereal or -- I can't tell what
9 that is.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Inside the bowl you are saying?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Inside the bowl.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you recognize the bowl?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Where do you keep them?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: In the kitchen.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: Where in the kitchen?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, in like a cupboard over
18 to -- there is kind of big sinks over here. There is
19 an island in the middle and big sinks and above that,
20 the cupboard with dishwear in it.
21 TRIP DEMUTH: What would you use these bowls
22 for?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Whatever. Cereal usually. I
24 usually -- I think I got those little bowels for like
25 salsa, you know, salsa, chips and salsa. I mean,
0475
1 because you had -- there were other bowls for cereal,
2 but that is (inaudible).
3 TOM HANEY: Those bowls, you described them
4 being on the cabinet or a shelf, and you demonstrated
5 it was higher. Is that something JonBenet could have
6 reached?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
8 TOM HANEY: Okay. The contents of the bowl,
9 does that appear to be pineapple to you?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Could be. Could be.
11 TOM HANEY: That is what has been described
12 as --
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Is it? It could be.
14 TOM HANEY: Do you eat or does anybody in the
15 family eat a bowl of pineapple?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the kids both ate
17 pineapple, but I would never serve a bowl like that of
18 pineapple. I would think I would put two or three
19 pieces on their plate with the rest of their food or
20 something, because, I mean, it looks weird to set out a
21 bowl like that.
22 TOM HANEY: Just still talking about the bowl
23 itself and the pineapple, and there is probably no way
24 to determine from the photograph whether this was fresh
25 or canned. Do you have either or both in stock at the
0476
1 house there, did you?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Usually I would buy those -- I
3 bought pineapple, it was fresh pineapple that had been
4 peeled or whatever they do to it, and core it and cut
5 it up a little bit, or some that had been fresh that
6 was sealed there in the produce area.
7 TOM HANEY: What store did you buy this from?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Safeway is usually where I buy
9 it from.
10 TOM HANEY: It is the fresh pineapple that
11 they do all the work for you?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.
13 TOM HANEY: Did you have bags or however it
14 came?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. It usually went
16 bad pretty quick, so it didn't -- you know, I didn't
17 keep it around laying around very long. You know what
18 I mean?
19 TOM HANEY: So people ate it fairly regularly
20 or consistently?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I didn't buy it terribly
22 often. But when I did, I bought usually bought that
23 fresh and serve it out in little portions.
24 This looks weird to me, a bowl with a huge
25 spoon like that with pineapple in it.
0477
1 TOM HANEY: Again, JonBenet you said couldn't
2 reach the bowl. If she wanted pineapple, would she get
3 it out herself.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Out of the refrigerator, I
5 don't -- no. That wouldn't be something she would
6 really go to.
7 TOM HANEY: Did she like pineapple?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: She liked it.
9 TOM HANEY: Did she eat it as a snack?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, we had so many other
11 things that she had for a snack first, you know, before
12 she got pineapple. But she wouldn't do this. She
13 would not have a bowl like this with a big huge spoon
14 like that.
15 TOM HANEY: Would you do that?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TOM HANEY: Would --
18 PATSY RAMSEY: That is weird.
19 TOM HANEY: Would John do that?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
21 TOM HANEY: How about Burke?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No. He has a sweet tooth. He
23 doesn't like fruit too much. He likes pineapple a
24 little bit, strawberries a little bit, but he would not
25 pour himself a big bowl of pineapple.
0478
1 TOM HANEY: If he got up in the middle of the
2 night would he eat something like that?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No. He would eat something
4 chocolate.
5 TOM HANEY: Could he reach the bowl?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: He could reach the bowl.
7 TOM HANEY: The spoon, where is it kept?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: In the silverware drawer in
9 there in the kitchen to the right of the range.
10 But, see, if the kids were making a snack for
11 themselves, even if they were, that is a huge serving
12 spoon. They, you know, they use a little spoon.
13 Now, I don't know if some of those women, you
14 know, Priscilla and them were there that morning, it
15 was early, and I don't know whether they were, you
16 know, fixing things for people to eat, but that doesn't
17 look right to me.
18 TOM HANEY: Let's --
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, but it doesn't
20 look right to me.
21 TOM HANEY: When is the last time that you
22 know of that JonBenet ate pineapple?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
24 TOM HANEY: There were the remains of
25 pineapple in JonBenet's system.
0479
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I had heard that, yeah.
2 TOM HANEY: This is not a shock to you?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, it is not. No.
4 TOM HANEY: Okay.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: But I did not do this. If she
6 ate that, somebody put that there. I don't know when
7 she would have eaten it. She was sound asleep when we
8 got home.
9 TOM HANEY: And you said that earlier you
10 cleaned the table off after the breakfast.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
12 TOM HANEY: That wasn't there.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: No, it wasn't.
14 TOM HANEY: Is there some way to account for
15 the pineapple in her body?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Not to my knowledge, unless
17 she -- you know, I can't remember what was served over
18 at the White's. Does anybody know? Except there was
19 crab. I remember crab.
20 TOM HANEY: That seems to be the only thing
21 you recall that she ate.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
23 Did you fingerprint that?
24 TOM HANEY: Yes.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Did it show anything?
0480
1 TOM HANEY: Well, what would that tell you,
2 somebody's fingerprints were on it.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, if they weren't mine, if
4 they were not John's, maybe somebody fed her pineapple.
5 TOM HANEY: What if those fingerprints
6 belonged to one of the two of you?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I don't know.
8 TOM HANEY: Well, wait a minute. You started
9 that line.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't put the bowl there,
11 okay. I did not put the bowl there. I would not do
12 this, set it.
13 TOM HANEY: Let's go back to your line of
14 reasoning here. If they were not -- now talk to me.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
16 TOM HANEY: Look at me. If they are not
17 yours and they are not John's, then they would be
18 somebody else's.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
20 TOM HANEY: But now I am telling you they are
21 not somebody else's. Those prints belong to one of the
22 two of you.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: They do? You are sure? Well,
24 I don't know. I did not put that there. No.
25 TOM HANEY: Now, so could we just slough it
0481
1 off like that, because --
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know how else to -- I
3 mean, I would not do this set like this. JonBenet
4 could not reach a bowl that size.
5 TOM HANEY: Wait. Talk to me. Your line of
6 reasoning, and this was your logic a couple sentences
7 ago, they are not yours, they are not John's, then they
8 are somebody else's, whoever put it there. I'm telling
9 you that it isn't somebody else's.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Well --
11 TOM HANEY: You know sometimes the simplest,
12 most obscure little thing could be so significant.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I did not feed
14 JonBenet pineapple, so I don't know how it got in her
15 stomach. I don't know where this bowl of pineapple
16 came from. I can't recall putting that there. I can
17 never recall putting a tea bag like that in a cup, so I
18 don't know. I don't know the answer.
19 TOM HANEY: Have you, in the course of the
20 last 18 months, talked to any pathologists or read any
21 reports about pineapple in a body or how long it takes
22 for a body to digest materials?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I just have heard.
24 PATRICK BURKE: That is in the answers. He
25 is not trying to invade the attorney-client privilege
0482
1 or work product. He said he is asking you independent
2 of --
3 TOM HANEY: Right. Not anything you got from
4 Mr. Burke or Mr. Ferman (phonetic).
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I just know that I heard
6 somewhere there was pineapple in her stomach.
7 TOM HANEY: Right. And, again, I am no
8 scientist or anything, but from what we are told,
9 pineapple goes in at X time, and a certain amount of
10 time later, it is gone. Okay. It goes through a
11 particular process, and there is a way to estimate
12 times based on that depending on where it is in the
13 body.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: When she would have eaten it,
15 so you can tell somewhere in there?
16 TOM HANEY: We are --
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Working on that, okay. So
18 when did -- what time did she eat this?
19 TOM HANEY: Well, I am really not at liberty
20 to discuss that part of it with you now. Okay.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: All right. Do where we know
22 this is what she ate?
23 TOM HANEY: We are pretty sure it was
24 pineapple.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: This pineapple?
0483
1 TOM HANEY: Well, I don't think that science
2 has come quite that far that you could say.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, can they tell whether
4 it was fresh or canned?
5 TOM HANEY: Well --
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Because canned, it is like
7 gooey, you know.
8 TOM HANEY: There is some different
9 consistency, but I don't know.
10 But what concerns me is how that bowl with
11 that pineapple, A, got there, and how the pineapple got
12 in JonBenet's system.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know truly.
14 TOM HANEY: Take a little breather from the
15 pineapple and let's talk about the glass, do you drink
16 hot tea?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
18 TOM HANEY: Iced tea?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Iced tea.
20 TOM HANEY: There is December 25, iced tea
21 year round.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Mostly in the summer.
23 (inaudible).
24 TOM HANEY: Anybody else in the house drink
25 any tea?
0484
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Burke drinks iced tea in the
2 summer time. (inaudible).
3 TOM HANEY: You can tell me about the glass
4 and the tea bag, how those got to be there?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I don't. I
6 mean, I make iced tea. I usually boil it in a pan, put
7 the tea bag in and let them steep, and then transfer it
8 to a pitcher and add the sugar. (Inaudible).
9 TOM HANEY: How about that particular glass?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: That is a water glass.
11 TOM HANEY: Where would that normally be
12 kept?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Up in the cabinets over the
14 sink.
15 TOM HANEY: Close to the bowl?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the bowls would be here,
17 glasses over here.
18 TOM HANEY: So maybe about the same height.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
20 TOM HANEY: Again, something that JonBenet
21 couldn't reach on her own.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No. And JonBenet didn't like
23 iced tea or tea at all. I mean, did somebody -- do we
24 know what all of those people in the house that morning
25 did? Because you know there was a bowl of something in
0485
1 that Lennox China bowl, you know, with stuff in it that
2 somebody had out. Did somebody put all of this out
3 then? Was that there since that morning? Did you ask
4 them, somebody asked all those people, the two social
5 workers?
6 TOM HANEY: We asked them what they brought.
7 But see --
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Was it here earlier that
9 morning?
10 TOM HANEY: I don't believe. I don't know
11 when it showed up, okay. But I note there is pineapple
12 in the bowl, pineapple in JonBenet's system. So we are
13 trying to track that down.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. Well --
15 TOM HANEY: Any ideas, any thoughts?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I mean, I
17 don't. I can't explain it.
18 TOM HANEY: Had JonBenet and Burke been up in
19 the night, would Burke have maybe fixed that for her
20 knowing she wanted something like that?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. That is
22 stretching it.
23 TOM HANEY: To what?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, I would have heard
25 them. Burke would have gotten up and banged around
0486
1 getting cupboards open and getting stuff in the
2 refrigerator.
3 TOM HANEY: Well, if he banged around two
4 floors away, would you have heard that?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: I hope I would have.
6 TOM HANEY: You wouldn't hear JonBenet's
7 toilet flush one floor away.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that was at the opposite
9 end of the house. The kitchen is down under my --
10 TOM HANEY: It is kind of central, is it?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I just -- he has -- I
12 have never known him to fix his sister, in the middle
13 of the night, something to eat. That would be unusual.
14 TOM HANEY: Okay.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
16 TOM HANEY: Could it have happened?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Anything could have happened.
18 I mean, we know something strange happened that night,
19 but this looks weird to me. That is all I have. That
20 is all I know. That looks strange to me.
21 And if there was pineapple in her stomach and
22 that pineapple, that is -- I would like to know when
23 somebody first saw that there, you know, because there
24 were a lot of people floating around there.
25 PATRICK BURKE: Is this a good time for a
0487
1 break?
2 TOM HANEY: I have a couple of questions.
3 PATRICK BURKE: Before we get off of that,
4 just to finish, I think we have time left on the tape.
5 TOM HANEY: I am done talking, okay.
6 TRIP DEMUTH: Do I understand you to say that
7 JonBenet would not have fixed herself pineapple?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I very seriously doubt that.
9 TRIP DEMUTH: So if she had pineapple in her
10 system, someone had to serve that to her?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: That would be my guess.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. And we know that she did
13 have pineapple in her system.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
15 TRIP DEMUTH: Right.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: That is why I'm here.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: Someone would have had to serve
18 her pineapple.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: It seems to me like that.
20 TRIP DEMUTH: The Whites have told us that
21 they did not serve her pineapple.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: We need to figure out when she
24 got pineapple.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Exactly.
0488
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Other than the Whites, is there
2 anybody besides yourself that could have served her
3 pineapple?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I mean, she was
5 sound asleep when she came home.
6 TRIP DEMUTH: Let's back up.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: She would not have eaten after
8 that, to my knowledge. So, I mean, we went from the
9 White's to falling asleep in the car, the Walkers,
10 (inaudible). She was asleep. We put her to bed.
11 TRIP DEMUTH: Before you went to the White's
12 you were the one supervising her that day?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I don't recall her
14 eating pineapple that day.
15 TRIP DEMUTH: There was no one else during
16 that day that could have fed her?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: There, no. I mean, John was
18 in and out, but, you know, I don't remember pineapple.
19 TRIP DEMUTH: So you can understand why it is
20 important for us.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Of course.
22 TRIP DEMUTH: Can you also understand that
23 the only people that could have done it is yourself or
24 the Whites?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Or whoever killed JonBenet;
0489
1 right? I mean, there was somebody in our home that
2 night besides my husband, my son and my daughter and
3 myself that killed our daughter, you know.
4 Could they have fed JonBenet pineapple? That
5 is what I'm saying. This is weird. This is not like
6 something I would set up or that my children would set
7 up.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: So what, you know, somebody
10 gave her pineapple.
11 TRIP DEMUTH: Before we get to that
12 possibility, okay, I want to make sure there is no
13 other possibility, okay, so I need you to think about
14 the day.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: That is why we asked you, you
17 fed them pancakes in the morning.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Late morning.
19 TRIP DEMUTH: Could you have fed them
20 pineapple with the pancakes?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I am aware. Not that
22 I can remember. They don't go together. You wouldn't
23 have pineapple with pancakes.
24 TRIP DEMUTH: I wouldn't, but we need to ask.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
0490
1 TRIP DEMUTH: So no pineapple with the
2 pancakes in the morning, right?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I don't remember when I
4 had pineapple in the house.
5 TRIP DEMUTH: Want you to move through the
6 day.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: I am trying to remember.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Take your time.
9 When you are wrapping presents and what have
10 you, getting things ready, and JonBenet is riding her
11 bike some a little bit.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she rode her bike. We
13 were out there when she was riding her bike.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. There is a time when
15 John goes to the airport; right?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: And the kids were playing with
18 their toys and what have you, right, and lunch.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember lunch.
20 TRIP DEMUTH: I think you said earlier that
21 you may not have had lunch because there was an --
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I had breakfast.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: How late was the breakfast?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember exactly, but
25 probably 10:00, 11:00.
0491
1 TRIP DEMUTH: That is what you mean by a late
2 breakfast, okay. How about, you go to the White's what
3 time, approximately?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right after, like 4:00,
5 5:00ish, so we could have very easily skipped lunch.
6 TRIP DEMUTH: Think about that period of time
7 between late breakfast and leaving for the Whites, did
8 you serve them anything during that period of time?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't remember. I don't
10 know.
11 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. Priscilla had crab and
12 crackers waiting for you when you got to her house;
13 right?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she called it cracked
15 crab.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: Cracked crab.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: Was JonBenet hungry at the
19 time? Did she eat the cracked crab?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't tell you. You know,
21 we got to the house, the kids start running around and
22 we kind of don't --
23 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. But you do remember the
24 cracked crab.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I just remember Priscilla had
0492
1 dip and she said, I know your kids like seafood. I
2 will hold this little plate out for JonBenet to make
3 sure she gets some.
4 TRIP DEMUTH: You remember that.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: I remember that. Well, I
6 thought that is nice to make sure that we don't devour
7 it before the kids get some, but she specifically
8 mentioned JonBenet's name. And at that time it kind
9 of, you know, flew over. But then when you are trying
10 to remember things later, it seems, you know, a little
11 strange.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: But you don't remember any
13 other servings between the pancakes and the cracked
14 crab?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: What about before breakfast,
17 did you have any -- I don't know if you all had snacks
18 while you are opening presents.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: No. We had coffee, and the
20 kids don't care about eating. They just want to dig
21 in.
22 TRIP DEMUTH: That would be my experience as
23 well. So there was no pineapple served before
24 breakfast?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
0493
1 TRIP DEMUTH: And then Christmas Eve, going
2 backwards.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Christmas Eve, oh, Christmas
4 Eve we went to church and we went to Pasta Jay's.
5 TRIP DEMUTH: So spaghetti.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. No pineapple.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: After you came home from Pasta
8 Jay's.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean, you know, the
10 kids were full after Pasta Jay's.
11 TRIP DEMUTH: And you said you would think
12 you would hear Burke if he got up and went down to the
13 kitchen and fixed something. Has he ever gotten up in
14 the night and gone down into the kitchen?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I hear him get up and go to
16 the bathroom. I can hear him urinating in the
17 bathroom.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: My question is, does he ever go
19 to the kitchen in the middle of the night and get
20 something to eat?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Not that I was aware of,
22 that scenario -- sorry -- is farfetched.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: We need to explore these
24 things.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I know we do. This is good.
0494
1 TRIP DEMUTH: What about JonBenet, did she
2 ever get up in the middle of the night to go down to
3 the kitchen to get something to eat? In your
4 experience has she ever done that before?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
6 TRIP DEMUTH: If she was going to snack, what
7 would she snack on during the day? You said there was
8 plenty of other things around, what would that be?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: She liked grapes. I had a
10 basket that I would keep raisins and those fruit
11 roll-up things, you know.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: Where were the grapes?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Grapes would be like -- I
14 mean, I don't know that I had grapes that day. That is
15 what she liked to snack on.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: Where would you have kept
17 those?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I would have kept those
19 probably on the counter there somewhere.
20 TRIP DEMUTH: Which counter?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: The center island.
22 TRIP DEMUTH: In the kitchen?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: In the kitchen.
24 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: But I can't -- I can't imagine
0495
1 she would go downstairs to get something to eat. More
2 likely she would come upstairs and say, I'm hungry, for
3 me to go. Just it doesn't fit.
4 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. All right. That's it.
5 Thank you very much.
6 TOM HANEY: It is about 11:00. We'll take a
7 break. (Whereupon, a break was taken and tape 3
8 concluded.)
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
0496
1 __________________________________________
2
3 IN THE MATTER OF:
4
5
6 INTERVIEW WITH PATSY RAMSEY
7
8 __________________________________________
9
10
11
12 TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW
13
14
15 VOLUME 4 of 4
16 PAGES 496 TO 625
17
18
19
20
21 JUNE 25, 1998 (Continuing)
22
23
24
25
0497
1 TOM HANEY: Speaking of lunch, Patsy, do
2 you anticipate you want to stop for lunch or go
3 through? And again, I don't think I can tell
4 you, you know, forty-five minutes, an hour, two
5 hours more.
6 MR. BURKE: My guess is what Patsy would
7 want to do, is if you get to noon, about 12:20
8 and you say we really can be done fairly soon,
9 in the next fifteen minutes or so, then I'm sure
10 Patsy will say let's forge ahead and get it
11 done. If we get to noon and you say it's going
12 to be, I've got two more hours, then there's no
13 point in trying to cram it in.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
15 MR. BURKE: Go for a little bit, go to
16 lunchtime and then see really where we're at.
17 TOM HANEY: Okay. Sounds good. That was
18 probably on tape, but we're going to be back on
19 at 11:21 a.m. and --
20 MR. BURKE: I'm sorry.
21 TOM HANEY: We left off with the bowl and,
22 I don't know if you had any chance or gave it
23 any thought in that last twenty minutes --
24 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shakes head in the
25 negative.)
0498
1 TOM HANEY: Did you over the last couple of
2 nights discuss the bowl of pineapple with John?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't recall. I think he
4 mentioned seeing a bowl of pineapple, but we
5 didn't, I didn't discuss it, no.
6 TOM HANEY: Okay. So that would have been
7 about the extent of it, he says --
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
9 TOM HANEY: Something about, asked about a
10 bowl of pineapple?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Pineapple, right, yeah.
12 TOM HANEY: At that time did that jog your
13 recollection at all?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I, I recall that I had heard
15 somewhere or somebody told me that pineapple was
16 in her stomach.
17 TOM HANEY: Okay.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't where, somebody told
19 me they saw it on T.V. or, I don't know, but I
20 know there's been some discussion about
21 pineapple and I, you know, I just trying to
22 remember and remember that she had pineapple. I
23 can't remember.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: Nobody uses tea like this in
25 the glass in photo seventeen?
0499
1 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: You don't make tea in a
3 glass?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: No, it would break the
5 glass.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: What about that box of
7 Kleenex that's on the table?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Is that supposed to be there?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Not really, no, I don't
11 think so.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you know where that came
13 from, where that's supposed to be?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean, I had Kleenex
15 around, usually in the kitchen, with a box in
16 the bathroom.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Was there a box of Kleenex in
18 that dining room at all?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I just -- not that I
20 remember. It's unusual that Kleenex would be
21 there.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Got a blue, green
23 floral pattern on the box. Does that go to a
24 particular room?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't, I don't
0500
1 remember that box.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: When you say you don't
3 remember that box, what does that mean?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, I don't remember
5 that particular box, that design of that box of
6 Kleenex.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: That could be your box of
8 Kleenex, though, from somewhere in the house?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: It could be, but I don't
10 remember. Usually I buy those little square
11 boxes.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Because they just fit places
14 better.
15 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Do you recognize the
16 glass with the tea bag in it?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: The glass looks like ours.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: All right. We talked about
19 that already.
20 TOM HANEY: Okay. The next, excuse me, the
21 next photos begin here at 434.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
23 TOM HANEY: Outside photos.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes). There's not a
25 baseball bat, or is that the same one?
0501
1 TOM HANEY: Well, the -- 435 is a close up
2 of the one in 434.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean is this the same bat
4 as the one on the other side of the house?
5 TOM HANEY: No, that's why we're here.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you recognize this area?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
8 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Where's the area in
9 434?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the back yard, there
11 is the little pond, we have water in it, you
12 know.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Off the patio?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Off the patio. More likely
15 a bat would be here on the ground because this
16 is more like the general area where they play
17 baseball than the other picture.
18 TOM HANEY: Here, even though it's just
19 mulch stuff?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
21 TOM HANEY: Okay.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I mean, you know, it's
23 right there on the grass so part of the
24 unusualness of that other one was that it was
25 somewhere neat, neater than throwing it on the
0502
1 ground.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you recognize this
3 particular bat?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Not, you know, like I said,
5 Burke would be the better one to know which was
6 his bat and which wasn't.
7 TOM HANEY: Sure.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
9 TOM HANEY: And would you be able to
10 distinguish one bat from another?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably not.
12 TOM HANEY: Okay. Not a big baseball,
13 softball fan, player?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
15 TOM HANEY: Okay.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Unh-unh (no).
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Would you know if those bats,
18 or Burke's bat, or anybody's bat for that
19 matter, would be allowed in the house wherever
20 in the house? Do bats ever come inside?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, I think if they would be
22 in any part of the house, they would be in the
23 garage, you know, in the garage right there
24 before you, you known, leaning up before you
25 come in the door, because they're usually dirty
0503
1 and I can't ever recall them being like up in
2 the play room or anything like that.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Did you have a rule
4 against bringing the bats in the house?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. So it's possible that
7 one of the boys may have brought it in?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you remember any baseball
10 bats ever being in the basement?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Anybody ever store
13 them down in the basement?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No, they would either be in
15 the garage or out here somewhere more than
16 likely.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: You never stored a baseball
18 bat in the basement?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't say that I never
20 did, I can't remember.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Well --
22 PATSY RAMSEY: It would be unusual for me
23 to put a baseball bat or anybody to put a
24 baseball bat in the basement.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Do you have a memory
0504
1 of a baseball bat ever being -- I want to
2 know --
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I do not have a memory
4 of a baseball bat in the basement.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
6 TOM HANEY: 436.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: This is outside of the T.V.
8 room.
9 TOM HANEY: Anything usual about that?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks like these little
11 mullions have dropped down, you know, but
12 sometimes they did that.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: What's a mullion?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: The little bars, these
15 little check --
16 TRIP DeMUTH: The wood --
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: -- work that's in the window
19 itself?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, the pane, the pane.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Now, what --
22 PATSY RAMSEY: See, looks like there's,
23 it's not completely touching clear over there.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes).
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
0505
1 TRIP DeMUTH: Right.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: And it's not lined up to the
3 top one, see that?
4 TRIP DeMUTH: I do. So that's photograph
5 436, right?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: And you're pointing to the
8 lower left?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks like the right one
10 is out, too. See, you can see it below the
11 curtain.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. In both lower windows?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
14 TRIP DeMUTH: The center of picture 436,
15 the wood lattice work or whatever you call it
16 that's in the panes themselves looks like it's
17 displaced downwards --
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: -- slightly?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct, uh-huh (yes).
21 TOM HANEY: And you're looking at 457 now?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. That doesn't look
23 good.
24 TOM HANEY: What --
25 PATSY RAMSEY: This looks like it's been
0506
1 pried up or something right here.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. That loose --
3 PATSY RAMSEY: That wood.
4 TOM HANEY: -- a piece of the wood molding
5 or the molding on the window?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. You can see right
7 here and this looks like a bigger --
8 TOM HANEY: Close up of it.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: -- close up, yeah, that
10 don't look right.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you recall when this
12 didn't look like this? Tough question, but...
13 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't remember, but
14 this is the first time I've seen it look like
15 this.
16 TOM HANEY: Or the first time you noticed
17 it?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
19 TOM HANEY: Okay. Could it have been there
20 like that for some period of time?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Not, well, not -- I don't
22 know what you consider some period of time but
23 we, we had the outside trim all painted in
24 recent --
25 TOM HANEY: When was that --
0507
1 PATSY RAMSEY: -- time.
2 TOM HANEY: -- approximately?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, gosh, seemed like he was
4 there forever. I don't know.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: Was it that year?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, no, it doesn't seem like
7 it.
8 TRIP DeMUTH: Not that year?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean, we were doing a
10 lot of painting in '94.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Because that was kind of the
13 remodelling time. I could probably look back on
14 the checkbooks or something and see.
15 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. And who was the
16 painter?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Jay Pettapiece.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, that looks pretty
20 fresh, you know, that little piece of wood
21 there?
22 TOM HANEY: It's kind of hard to tell
23 except at the bottom that kind of break it looks
24 like there's paint --
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
0508
1 TOM HANEY: -- on that?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes). Yeah. I
3 never noticed that before.
4 TOM HANEY: Okay.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
6 TOM HANEY: And 438.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: That doesn't -- that looks
8 like the sun room door.
9 TOM HANEY: Okay.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
11 TRIP DeMUTH: Why don't you look at 439,
12 440 and 441. What's that?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Uh-huh (yes). That's
14 kind of pried into, yup, this doesn't look
15 right.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Now, do you remember that
17 being there before, Patsy?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Would you have
20 remembered that, like let's say for example John
21 Andrew, living in town, can't get in one day,
22 maybe he tries to pry the door or something. I
23 don't know that I'm just saying --
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh, uh-huh (yes).
25 TRIP DeMUTH: -- let's imagine that.
0509
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, that's fairly big, I
2 think I would have noticed that. No, that looks
3 strange to me.
4 TOM HANEY: The other thing if you'll look,
5 it looks like the bolt, or the dead bolt --
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
7 TOM HANEY: -- kind of matches up with that
8 as if the bolt were open when the door was
9 closed at some time. Would the kids have
10 possibly in coming or going --
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible.)
12 TOM HANEY: Well it's not a double, double
13 cylinder deadbolt, I don't believe, and that
14 means you have a key from both sides.
15 TRIP DeMUTH: Yeah, it's not.
16 TOM HANEY: You have the throw on the
17 inside so if the throw was partially thrown and
18 the kids pulled the door --
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh.
20 TOM HANEY: As opposed to a pry mark.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: Somebody tried to shut the
23 door with the deadbolt out.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, I see. I don't know.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you ever remember anything
0510
1 like that happening?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you think you would have
4 remembered this, though?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. We don't use the door
6 much because see there's a plant in front of it
7 and so I can't imagine the kids trying to come
8 in or out of that door, because we didn't use
9 that door.
10 TOM HANEY: Okay. And the plant in front
11 of it was it there --
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Most usually.
13 TOM HANEY: -- most all the time?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
15 TOM HANEY: Okay.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Were you ever -- but did you
17 ever come to the outside of this door, would you
18 ever have been standing in this area to really
19 look at this door?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you know, I would
21 walk -- there's a little path right out here and
22 I walked over, there's little gardens and, you
23 know, and sometimes I would plant flowers in
24 this little thing. So, I mean, I had occasion
25 to be in this area.
0511
1 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: And I think something that
3 much of a gouge I would have noticed.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Because it doesn't, you
6 know, it's not -- I mean, that looks pretty
7 fresh because it's not -- see how dark this is
8 and that looks like new, you know, raw wood or
9 however you say that.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
11 TOM HANEY: Okay. And so that's 438, 439,
12 40 and 41. They're all kind of the same.
13 The next, let's see, what do we jump
14 to, yeah, 577 and which is just a Boulder police
15 identification, photo identification photo.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Shows photos taken on
17 January 2nd, 1997. We've looked at these before
18 looking for an angle and we told you that
19 we would show you another one closer up and this
20 is where you see the --
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, what is that, a
22 finger, that smudgy fingerprint and stuff.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: And you're looking at 580?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: No memory of that?
0512
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Unh-unh (no).
2 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
3 TOM HANEY: The next, some more doors.
4 Now, these are 581, 582, 83 and 84. Can you
5 identify which door that is?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the door going to
7 the outside off the butler pantry there, butler
8 kitchen.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: So this one's upside down,
10 isn't it?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, that's what I was
12 trying to figure out.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Yes, let's do that. It makes
14 more sense.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: And there's some dirt or
16 smudge or something, but, you know, we really
17 truly weren't back in this area very much, so I
18 wouldn't have had much occasion to see the door
19 from out here.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: From outside looking in like
22 we're doing here.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
24 TOM HANEY: So you seldom, if ever, went
25 out there?
0513
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. The next group of photos
3 and these are not numbered --
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
5 TOM HANEY: -- but they show flashlight.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
7 TOM HANEY: A black metal string light
8 type --
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
10 TOM HANEY: -- flashlight. Do you
11 recognize that?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks similar to one that
13 John Andrew gave John for Christmas, birthday or
14 something.
15 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you recall when it
16 was he gave it to him or...
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Not exactly, unh-unh (no).
18 Although it looks kind of dirty there. I mean,
19 if I remember --
20 TOM HANEY: It looks different?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Describe how it looks
23 different.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the one that I
25 remember John having was pretty slick black, you
0514
1 know, and that looks kind of smudgy or gray or
2 something.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. That's been processed,
4 so it has been changed.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, okay.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Other than that, do you
7 notice any differences from...
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
9 TRIP DeMUTH: That's similar to the one
10 that John Andrew gave John?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, uh-huh (yes).
12 TRIP DeMUTH: And I think last time when
13 you were here on last April --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
15 TRIP DeMUTH: -- you said where that was
16 stored.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
18 TRIP DeMUTH: And I wanted to clarify that
19 a little bit. Do you remember where it was
20 stored?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the best I recall it
22 was in like one of those junk drawers there in
23 the bar area.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. And I wanted to flip
25 back to photo 380, right there.
0515
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, yeah, one of those
2 drawers.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: One of the drawers that's
4 depicted in 380?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you remember which drawer?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I, I most recently
8 remember it being, you know, right in this
9 drawer.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: The drawer that is open?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: That's open there, yeah.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: And that's the wet bar that's
13 by the spiral staircase, right?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
15 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Okay. And now looking
16 at photo 380, you don't see a flashlight in
17 there, right?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Where was this flashlight
21 found?
22 TRIP DeMUTH: Well, do you remember when
23 you came in on, in April, they showed you a
24 picture of the flashlight? Do you recall that?
25 You may not.
0516
1 PATSY RAMSEY: No, not exactly.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. This was on the
3 kitchen counter?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: We don't have a picture of
6 that, do we.
7 TOM HANEY: No. It's in the video, I
8 believe, but I don't...
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
10 TOM HANEY: I don't remember one.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: You know, it's, if I can try
12 to describe it, you know, if you're coming from
13 the front door and you're going through your
14 kitchen --
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
16 TRIP DeMUTH: -- and you've kind of got
17 that first nook or whatever you call it?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, right.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: And if you're looking towards
20 that nook area, it would be sort of on the left
21 island area, kind of in that area.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: Does that make sense to you?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: It doesn't make sense to me.
25 I mean, like I said, usually it was kept in that
0517
1 drawer in there.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes).
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't know.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Why would that be out?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. I notice you have
7 cameras out and other things.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I'm not a very good
9 housekeeper.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: There was a video camera, I
11 think, on that kitchen island there or something
12 like that. I may not have that exactly.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I vaguely remember a video
14 camera being out because I was probably turning
15 it up to take pictures Christmas morning but
16 then we never ended up taking any.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes). Did you guys
18 use this flashlight much?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't, no.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: Who did?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: John used it.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: What did he use it for?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, looking in the
24 garage and the car or something like that.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Had you ever seen it
0518
1 on the kitchen counter before?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I recall.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Would it have struck you as
4 unusual, or would that not be outside the realm
5 of possibilities, given the habits of the
6 family?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: It seems like it would have
8 been unusual to have made it all the way into
9 the kitchen, because usually if somebody was
10 using the flashlight, they were -- John was
11 looking at something in the garage or under the
12 car or something like that.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: But he might, you know, I'm
15 sure you must have asked him if he...
16 TOM HANEY: And maybe I missed it, do you
17 know when you last saw it in the drawer?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I'm not for sure.
19 TOM HANEY: Do you remember ever putting
20 batteries in it or buying batteries for it,
21 somebody says woop, the flashlight is low, get
22 us some --
23 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
24 TOM HANEY: -- C, D cells?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No, it just kind of wasn't
0519
1 my, my thing, you know.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. How about, do you recall
3 of using that during say a power outage or to
4 check on the kids at night, anything along those
5 lines?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't remember that.
7 TOM HANEY: There are two more photos on
8 the back sides of the same flashlight. Next we
9 have photos that are numbered 113.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
11 TOM HANEY: Which is a paper bag.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
13 TOM HANEY: And then 114 is the contents of
14 that.
15 TRIP DeMUTH: The paper bag is a police bag
16 and this came out of here.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, this was in here?
18 TRIP DeMUTH: Correct?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: And there's another picture
21 of that same item in 115 and 116. Why don't you
22 look those over at your leisure.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't recognize it,
24 specifically.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
0520
1 TOM HANEY: Okay. And that, that
2 particular piece of rope, do you ever remember
3 seeing anything like it around? And if you look
4 at photo 115, you notice the --
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
6 TOM HANEY: -- ends are unusually secured.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. No.
8 TOM HANEY: Can you think of any reason to
9 have that kind of rope around?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I've just never seen ends
11 like that, done like that. John had some, you
12 know, boat ropes and things up at the lake, but
13 it seems like when they cut those, they kind of
14 melt the ends of them or something to keep them
15 from fraying or something. I've never seen one
16 done like that.
17 TOM HANEY: The kind of ropes you're
18 talking about that John used up there --
19 PATSY RAMSEY: For the sailboat or --
20 TOM HANEY: Are they colored the same or
21 similar?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, some of them have like
23 little blue flecks in them or red, or there's
24 some white ones, you know.
25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you know what, what
0521
1 those are composed of? Is it a nylon like that
2 melts?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, it must, something
4 that melts, yeah. But it seems to me like they
5 somehow torch the ends and kind of keep them
6 from fraying. I can't remember seeing any one
7 looking like that.
8 TOM HANEY: You don't remember that being
9 used anywhere in the house or yard or --
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
11 TOM HANEY: Would you think that unusual to
12 be found in the house?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I mean, Burke had
14 some ropes that he would play with through
15 something out on the playground, you know, in
16 that, in that picture yesterday the rope around
17 the, the fort, you know, or something.
18 TOM HANEY: Right.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Always trying to make a boat
20 or something like that.
21 TOM HANEY: You commented they were always
22 up there nailing --
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
24 TOM HANEY: -- or something, attaching
25 things as though --
0522
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, so I don't know.
2 TOM HANEY: This was found inside the
3 house.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Inside the house?
5 TOM HANEY: In John Andrew's room?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh. Maybe it was a, some
7 rope he used for camping or something, I don't
8 know.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Did he have rope in his room
10 that he would use for camping? You mentioned
11 the topo map.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, topo maps.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Topo maps that were in that
14 one drawer.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I don't know. I
16 just don't remember seeing this specifically,
17 and I don't remember ever seeing a rope like
18 that.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you know John Andrew had
20 rope in that room?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Did you ask him?
22 TRIP DeMUTH: I would like to, so, you
23 know --
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, he might recognize it.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Yeah. And I would like to,
0523
1 if you don't mind, I mean, I would like to talk
2 to him first about it.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, okay.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: All right.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Wait, before we go off of
7 that, though, and I want to apologize because I
8 don't know what the bag looked like, but that
9 was found in a bag that was by the chair in the,
10 in John Andrew's bedroom. I don't know what the
11 bag looked like yet. I'll find out.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Is it in any of those other
13 pictures?
14 TRIP DeMUTH: Well, I looked and I'll have
15 you look and I don't know where John Andrew is
16 here. I hate to ask you to look.
17 Do you remember a bag -- do you
18 remember which chair I'm talking about?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, the wing back chair in
20 there, right.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: There's only one chair in
22 there, right?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nods head in the
24 affirmative.)
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you remember a bag in
0524
1 there by that chair?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No. We had stuff all over
3 the place, you know, I can't even remember. I
4 mean, if I could see the bag, maybe I can
5 remember. I mean, a rope in a bag seems
6 unusual. I mean, if it was done backpack or
7 something.
8 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I just -- I'd make
10 sure you asked him.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: That doesn't jog any bells,
12 though, telling you it's in a bag by the chair
13 in John Andrew's bedroom?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
15 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
16 TOM HANEY: And the next photo is marked
17 120TET8.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Are we looking for anything
19 special here?
20 TOM HANEY: Do you see anything unusual in
21 there?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I don't know what
23 this -- that looks like cleaning fluid or Windex
24 or something, I don't know what that would be
25 doing sitting down there.
0525
1 TOM HANEY: Uh-huh (yes).
2 PATSY RAMSEY: That's strange. I can't
3 tell what that is.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: It's a red object under the
5 table?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: There's -- looks like that
9 scarf that we've seen previously.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Black and red scarf on
11 the bar.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Looks like it -- where does
14 it look like it is in this photo?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: What, the scarf?
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes).
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Hanging on, hanging on the
18 little ledge there by the bar. Is that where it
19 was on the other one?
20 TRIP DeMUTH: The other photo we looked at
21 it was on the bar itself.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: It was on the bar. This
23 just looks strange to me.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: Cleaning?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Cleaning, Windex or whatever
0526
1 that is.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: Underneath the table?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible.) I mean, I just
4 don't know why it would be there. It would
5 either be in the cleaning closet or under the
6 kitchen sink or somewhere (inaudible).
7 TOM HANEY: On the top of the file of
8 books --
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
10 TOM HANEY: -- on the table there?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
12 TOM HANEY: And I think you identified the
13 book --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
15 TOM HANEY: -- yesterday as one that was a
16 gift.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, from Priscilla.
18 That's another one of those legal pads.
19 TOM HANEY: Right.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Is that a (inaudible)
21 picture?
22 TOM HANEY: No.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
24 TOM HANEY: But this photo was not taken
25 after, this was on, it's a --
0527
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, right.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: -- similar photo to this one
3 here, but we're minus that.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
5 TOM HANEY: And probably minus the cleaning
6 fluid and we have some bags here.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
8 TOM HANEY: And that's photo 52 that we're
9 comparing it to.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Is that cleaning stuff over
11 there?
12 TOM HANEY: Hard to see. It could be the
13 same, but I'm not sure. Okay.
14 That photo 52 was taken by the police.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
16 TOM HANEY: Well, this photo 12OTET8 was on
17 your roll of file in your camera. And on the
18 same roll is the next photo, a Christmas morning
19 photo of the kids.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes). Oh, God.
21 TOM HANEY: Before we, before we talk too
22 much about the next photo, if you can --
23 TRIP DeMUTH: You want to just take that
24 out for a minute?
25 TOM HANEY: Let's talk still about the
0528
1 120TET. Like I say, this was on your role of
2 film and it's not exactly the same photograph
3 that was taken by the police.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
5 TOM HANEY: But it's, it's, it shows --
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
7 TOM HANEY: -- pretty much, I guess, or can
8 you tell me when that would have been taken?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't have a clue why
10 anybody would take a picture like that. I don't
11 know (inaudible). Who took the picture?
12 TOM HANEY: Well, it's on your roll --
13 PATSY RAMSEY: It's on my --
14 TOM HANEY: -- of film on your camera.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
16 TOM HANEY: And this legal pad that you --
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
18 TOM HANEY: -- identified --
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
20 TOM HANEY: -- do you know when that would
21 have been in that position?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No. So this, this was taken
23 before photo one was?
24 TOM HANEY: Before the police photos.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, okay. I don't know
0529
1 when this was taken, or why it was taken. I
2 mean, it's nothing.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you recognize that pad, I
4 know it's (inaudible) photo?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, but we had a lot of
6 those around. There was a picture in another
7 one. I think.
8 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes)
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I bought like those Office
10 Depot's or Office Max or whatever they are and I
11 usually kept a bunch of them, you know, kept
12 them over here, right around here in the
13 kitchen.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: By the telephone?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, but, you know, they
16 float all over.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: So it wouldn't have been
18 unusual to be where it is?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: No. No. Gosh.
20 TOM HANEY: Just a second, okay?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
22 TOM HANEY: So would this particular note
23 pad be, belong to somebody in particular or --
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No, not necessarily.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Now, what about the bag, the
0530
1 plastic bag?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: This one?
3 TRIP DeMUTH: No.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: This one?
5 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes).
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I don't know, I can't
7 tell what's in there, what it is.
8 TOM HANEY: Try, I don't know if that
9 helps?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Do you remember what was in
11 that one?
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Remember we talked about a
13 plastic bag in photo 52.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I mean, I had plastic
15 bags getting some things ready to go to the
16 lake.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Right.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: You know, I was packing it
19 kind of on the landing up there.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: Right.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: And then we saw one down at
22 the bottom of the stairs.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: Right.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: And you said that picture
25 was taken early that morning.
0531
1 TRIP DeMUTH: Right.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: So that could have -- that
3 could have been the bag with the clothes going
4 to the lake and I could have brought it down and
5 saw the note, dropped the bag. But if this was
6 taken before that, then I don't know what's in
7 that bag. I don't know what that is. I can't
8 tell. I don't know.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know what was in
11 that one, either. I can't tell what that is.
12 It looks like there's writing on that, red.
13 TOM HANEY: Do you remember taking that
14 photograph?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
16 TOM HANEY: Did you take photographs
17 Christmas morning?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I think we took some stills,
19 yeah.
20 TOM HANEY: Okay.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Could have been taken of the
22 kids unwrapping and things like that.
23 TOM HANEY: Did you take the photos or --
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I probably took some, John
25 probably took some.
0532
1 TOM HANEY: Did the kids take any?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. Oh, I don't
3 know. That just seems really weird, unless
4 somebody was trying to get rid of film and just
5 (indicating) clicked anything. I can't imagine
6 why you just take a pictures of a messy hallway.
7 TOM HANEY: Okay.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Did you want to see me?
9 TRIP DeMUTH: That's a good point.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: What is it? There's
11 smudges.
12 MR. ARMISTEAD: See what I'm saying?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
14 What could that be?
15 TOM HANEY: Just for the record, Ellis has
16 pointed out some black smudges on the center
17 post of the spiral staircase.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh, uh-huh (yes). That
19 looks strange, though.
20 TOM HANEY: Okay. And just real briefly,
21 this was, is 91KKY23, and this would have been
22 taken Christmas morning and that's where the
23 children would have been dressed that morning
24 and had slept Christmas Eve.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: And the main reason we wanted
0533
1 to show you that, actually you've already
2 answered the question, early on we saw the pink
3 top in the bed, right?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nods head in the
5 affirmative.)
6 TRIP DeMUTH: And you had remembered her
7 wearing that.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I would like to have a copy
9 of that sometime.
10 TOM HANEY: Your call.
11 MR. BURKE: I think we should break.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: I'll get you a copy of that.
13 TOM HANEY: It's 12:01 and we'll go off the
14 tape.
15 (Recess was taken.)
16 TOM HANEY: Okay. I have about 1:46 p.m.
17 and we're back on videotape. Same people with
18 the exception Ellis Armistead is gone, having
19 been replaced by Jennifer Getty, correct? I
20 think we left off on the broke, according to the
21 notes that I have, but I think we're finished
22 with that.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: Yes.
24 TOM HANEY: We finished those. And the
25 next photo has no number on it, but that bag
0534
1 that we had been talking about earlier in
2 JonBenet's room there were some things in it and
3 if you can just take a peek at that photo and
4 the next one. And the second one has JB2 on it,
5 this one has JB and nothing else.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: That looks like a little
7 Tupperware container.
8 TOM HANEY: Okay.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: But I can't, I can't tell
10 what's in it, it's too fuzzy. I don't know you
11 all or something.
12 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you recall the bag --
13 and we looked at it earlier from different
14 angles --
15 PATSY RAMSEY: A little gift bag or
16 something.
17 TOM HANEY: It appears to be.
18 (Video went out, audio still on.)
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Some of it -- I don't know.
20 Could you give me a hint or --
21 TOM HANEY: Well, not exactly. You know,
22 you have --
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Is it Sid, is it?
24 TOM HANEY: Well, and that we don't, we
25 don't really know, or I don't know.
0535
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she had some little
2 bead things, little like plastic little beads
3 that you iron together that were, you know,
4 teeny little different colors, yellow, blue,
5 red, whatever, and that might be that
6 (inaudible).
7 TOM HANEY: Were they mixed together, or
8 were they separated according to colors?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Separate, I believe, I
10 believe, I can't remember. She got it from
11 Christmas I think, a little bead holder.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you recall who, who she
13 got that from?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, you know, it
15 was under the tree.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Was it from you or --
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Or a group scene, I don't
18 know.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Did you purchase it?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: The little bead, beaded
23 stuff, she used to make them with that little
24 Meagan (inaudible), they have the -- it's on one
25 of these pictures. So you put them on a little
0536
1 design board and then you --
2 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes).
3 PATSY RAMSEY: And then you put a wet paper
4 on it --
5 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes).
6 PATSY RAMSEY: -- and iron them together.
7 That could be what that is. I can't tell. I
8 can't tell. You could be right. I can't tell.
9 TOM HANEY: Okay. And again, I think it's
10 probably a little bigger than that, especially
11 if you look at the JB2 photo, but again it's
12 kind of hard to say because it's not really good
13 focus.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
15 TOM HANEY: Let me show you, I want to make
16 sure you know which bag that we're talking
17 about. It's picture 55. I kind of lost my
18 place.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: It's a --
20 TOM HANEY: Yeah.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
22 TOM HANEY: You see that?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
24 TOM HANEY: 55.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
0537
1 TOM HANEY: It's a little gift --
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Gift bag, right.
3 TOM HANEY: Okay. And you don't have any
4 specific recollection about that?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
6 TOM HANEY: The reason I'm asking you about
7 it is because you had said you had been packing
8 things for Charleboy (phonetic).
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
10 TOM HANEY: Is that one of the bags you had
11 been packing for Charleboy?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't, I don't remember,
13 but I was thinking backpacking for Charleboy,
14 like the Christmas presents for Melinda and John
15 Stuart.
16 TOM HANEY: So that's not?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Shopping bags for gifts for
18 them.
19 TOM HANEY: Okay.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, JonBenet may
21 have picked that up to take it with her, of
22 course, I just don't remember.
23 TOM HANEY: Had you packed any perishables
24 in that pack? We don't know what it is --
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't know, I don't
0538
1 know, I, I don't remember that bag and I can't
2 tell what's in that picture.
3 TOM HANEY: Okay.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: So.
5 TOM HANEY: Well, I just wanted to check --
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
7 TOM HANEY: -- and make sure that's not
8 part of what you were taking to Charleboy.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't recall that it was.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Something that
11 occurred to me is that you might have packed
12 snacks for --
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, right.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: And what I hear you saying is
15 that that's not what this is.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't know, it doesn't
17 look like it. If I packed snacks, I would have
18 been downstairs in the kitchen somewhere --
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: -- or, you know, but --
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Would perishable items be in
22 a Tupperware container up in JonBenet's room,
23 perishable food items?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Not likely.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
0539
1 PATSY RAMSEY: That's what makes me think
2 it would be more likely to be the beads or
3 something.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. So do you think that
5 that's pineapple in there?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. It could be.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Would you think that that
8 would be likely, or unlikely up in her room?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I think that would be very
10 unlikely.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: Very unlikely?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: To be pineapple.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. You don't recall
14 putting pineapple in a Tupperware container and
15 putting it up in her room?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: And you would be the person
18 to do that if it were done, right?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Most likely, yes.
20 TOM HANEY: This photo is a large eight by
21 ten, maybe you can describe it. It has no
22 number.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: This is a picture of me and
24 Fleet White at the White's house, in their
25 living room.
0540
1 TOM HANEY: And when would that photo have
2 been taken?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably on the 21st.
4 TOM HANEY: Okay.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Evening.
6 TOM HANEY: And this is the sweater --
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
8 TOM HANEY: -- jacket?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Fleet's jacket I bought for
10 her.
11 TOM HANEY: And is that the same one that
12 was turned over by Ellis Armistead to the
13 police?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
15 TOM HANEY: Let me just turn to the next
16 one and check it out.
17 Can you identify that, was that taken
18 at or about the same time --
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
20 TOM HANEY: -- and place?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
22 TOM HANEY: And that's the jacket that you
23 were wearing that you identified earlier?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
25 TOM HANEY: How about the red -- and I
0541
1 can't tell --
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No, it's a little
3 turtleneck. I don't know.
4 TOM HANEY: Was that also turned over --
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
6 TOM HANEY: Okay -- by you to Ellis who in
7 turn turned it over to the police?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
9 TOM HANEY: And how about what John was
10 wearing?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
12 TOM HANEY: And --
13 PATSY RAMSEY: This part I remember.
14 TOM HANEY: He's wearing a black long
15 sleeve --
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Shirt.
17 TOM HANEY: -- color and I can't --
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it's hard to tell.
19 TOM HANEY: Okay. Can of peanuts.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you recall that night what
22 footwear you had on?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't. I really don't
24 know.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Could you guess what you
0542
1 would have been wearing with that outfit? Was
2 it the same -- you were going to wear the same
3 outfit the next day on the plane, is that --
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, probably these little
5 black boots kind of things that were kind of
6 ankle boots.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Were those the furry ones?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Furry? No, no, they were
9 the leather like shoe boots, kind of more like
10 shoes than boots, but I can't say for sure.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: And what brand were those?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I got them at
13 Lundstrum's, I think.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible.) Or were they
16 tennis shoes? I'll look again.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you have a pair of white
18 socks on?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I was trying to think.
20 Looks like that was attached to me or attached
21 to the rug or something. Kind of looks like
22 that. I could have had white socks on
23 underneath the --
24 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes).
25 PATSY RAMSEY: -- shoes.
0543
1 TRIP DeMUTH: Shoes. Does that help
2 refresh your recollection about what shoes you
3 were wearing?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
6 TOM HANEY: Next we have some photos of
7 those items that were turned over and the
8 numbers I think are 13 and 62, 63, 64 and 65 on
9 this page.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
11 TOM HANEY: Do those appear to be the same
12 ones?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
14 PATSY RAMSEY: What are these? Are these
15 left out pants, then, left out pants?
16 TOM HANEY: Yes.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Stretch pants I think.
18 TOM HANEY: Well, and I don't know. Do
19 those look like the correct ones?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well --
21 TOM HANEY: Whether they call them stretch
22 or not?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: I know they're velvet, they
24 were velvet jeans, that's what I call them.
25 TOM HANEY: Okay.
0544
1 PATSY RAMSEY: All right. Wouldn't show.
2 What's -- is that a tennis sweater.
3 TOM HANEY: I believe so. It's the back
4 and I think we have the front on the next page.
5 We have these numbered 13 --
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
7 TOM HANEY: -- 59, 60 and 61.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: And this was Rich's shirt,
9 (inaudible) shirt, Richard's shirt.
10 TOM HANEY: Okay. And would you have known
11 which one John would have worn that night?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: No. These are, you know,
13 (inaudible) black.
14 TOM HANEY: Sure.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Looks like a little button
16 there, I guess (inaudible) button (inaudible).
17 The reason I'm looking so hard at this
18 is because Priscilla had a jacket like this. I
19 mean, until I saw this picture, I had thought
20 that I had worn my Christmas sweater to their
21 house, the little bobbly one. And then I saw
22 this picture and I said oh, I must have worn
23 that sweater to their house.
24 But then I thought, well, maybe I had
25 her jacket. I mean, you know, I don't know. I
0545
1 was just trying to figure out, this was
2 certainly the one I sent, I sent mine out there,
3 but I just want to make sure that...
4 TRIP DeMUTH: That you were wearing yours
5 on Christmas and not hers?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I mean, I could have
7 been in her house in the living room, you know,
8 what I mean, and been cold and she said here put
9 this on. I just can't remember. My point is
10 that we both had jackets similar to that.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: So I don't know.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: And did you buy them at the
14 same time and place?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I mean, I don't know I
16 don't know when she got me that. I really don't
17 remember. FYI, I mean.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: So can you tell if that's
19 your jacket you're wearing or --
20 PATSY RAMSEY: This one, you mean?
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Were they the exact same?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: They were pretty close, but
23 I can't, I can't really remember.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes).
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Why I would have hers on.
0546
1 All I'm saying is mine -- first time somebody
2 asked me what I had on that day, I think I might
3 have said I had my Christmas sweater on which is
4 the bobbly --
5 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes).
6 PATSY RAMSEY: -- little beaded one. And
7 then when I saw this picture, somebody showed me
8 this picture --
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes).
10 PATSY RAMSEY: -- because they wanted the
11 clothing, I said oh, I must have worn that one,
12 so I got that one instead. I think I sent both
13 of them, actually.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: You sent both of them?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: The bobbly beaded one or
16 whatever. I think actually I -- I know I wore
17 that one on the 23rd. Can I see that one?
18 TRIP DeMUTH: Oh, sure. So the one you
19 sent us, was that hers, or yours?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No, it was mine.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. So where did you get
22 it from? I mean, was it down in Atlanta or
23 wherever?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible.)
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. So this, just to make
0547
1 clear this 13-64 and 63 is yours?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Go ahead.
4 TOM HANEY: And we talked about 59, 60 and
5 61.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
7 TOM HANEY: The next group of photos are
8 marked 7-15, dash 16, dash 17, dash 18, and can
9 you identify what that is?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Someone with a
11 flashlight?
12 TOM HANEY: No.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
14 TOM HANEY: And there's some additional
15 photos on the back that are 19, 20, 21 and 22.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: The portable flowers, I
17 don't know. I've never seen that.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Actually that is a
19 stun gun, I think you and John and various
20 people from the DA's office had some
21 discussion --
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: -- last July about a stun
24 gun.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I don't understand
0548
1 that.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you follow up at all
3 following that discussion last July about stun
4 guns or anything about them?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No, just that perhaps one
6 might have been used.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: And I never have had one or
9 seen one. First time I've seen one. What,
10 what -- how -- which end is this gun? I mean,
11 it don't look like a gun or anything.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Yeah, it's -- and we don't
13 have any side views, these are just kind of from
14 either end.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: But do you recall inside the
17 house a video from Spy World?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I've heard that, yes.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I have never seen the video.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: And I've never viewed the
23 video.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Do you know how that
25 video came to be in the house?
0549
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Best I can remember we were
2 on a business trip or some trip in Florida and
3 went out walking around the hotel and there was
4 a shop that carried like cellular phones and
5 hand (inaudible) security kind of things and we
6 stopped, somebody -- it was like a, you know,
7 gadget kind of place and went in and John spoke
8 with them about ability to (inaudible).
9 TRIP DeMUTH: And where were you at the
10 time?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I was in Florida.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you remember where?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it was Miami.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. But you never watched
15 it?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: And so you don't know that
18 John did --
19 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: -- or not.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I think we just brought
22 it home from the shop or whatever. I didn't
23 even remember it happening until you brought it
24 up.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you make any purchases
0550
1 there, when you got this tape?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't recall making
3 anything, purchasing anything there.
4 TOM HANEY: Okay. Next is another eight by
5 ten photo and it does not have a number but
6 maybe you can identify that.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it looks like a --
8 John got a -- bowl, an award or something from
9 the Chamber of Commerce and this might be like a
10 program or something --
11 TOM HANEY: Okay.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: -- from there.
13 TOM HANEY: And there's some additional?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
15 TOM HANEY: -- writing on it.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: There's writing on it, no,
17 no, no, heart, and I don't know what that is. I
18 have no clue. I've never seen this. I went to
19 the event, if that is a program from there. I
20 don't understand that.
21 TOM HANEY: The writing or printing that's
22 on there --
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
24 TOM HANEY: -- could you describe it or do
25 you have an opinion about it?
0551
1 PATSY RAMSEY: It says no, no, no, three of
2 them, and this is John's picture and -- if you
3 do have some alternate.
4 TOM HANEY: I think we have that in
5 evidence.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Does its look like something
7 JonBenet would do?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I can't imagine her
9 writing -- I mean, I don't think that she
10 could -- when was this? I forget what year that
11 is. '95.
12 I can't imagine her writing no, no, no
13 like that. I can't tell whether --
14 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you have a magnifying
15 glass?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: I just can't imagine. I
17 don't know where this was, if she would have
18 seen it to do such a thing, anyway.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Can you make out the words?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I'm trying to see if there's
21 a word there or something. I don't think
22 that -- heart, SOS -- no, no words.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: Just for the record I should
24 say that this, what we're looking at here is an
25 article of some sort that at the top says 1995,
0552
1 three hundred new words from being off her
2 (inaudible).
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I don't know. Is that
4 (inaudible)?
5 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes). Do you
6 recognize that at all?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
8 TRIP DeMUTH: Did JonBenet ever doodle like
9 that on --
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she would doodle but
11 this is pretty -- I mean, why would she put no,
12 no, no and then -- just strange. That just
13 seems weird.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: You don't have any prior
15 memory --
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: -- of seeing this?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Would Burke possibly have
20 done it?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't like that.
24 TOM HANEY: We've got the no, no, no on
25 this one and this is just we have a heart and
0553
1 then we have --
2 PATSY RAMSEY: X.
3 TOM HANEY: Or a Y.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Y?
5 TOM HANEY: Would be a Y-E-S and a heart.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh. Oh, Y-E-S, no, no, no,
7 yes. I don't know, I have never seen this
8 before.
9 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you recognize the
10 folder that it's in, if that is a folder?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I can't tell what that
12 is, it's -- this folder here?
13 TOM HANEY: Uh-huh (yes).
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No. No.
15 TOM HANEY: Okay. Next we have just some,
16 actually they're going to be loose photos --
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
18 TOM HANEY: -- I slipped in. I'll just
19 hand you one of these one at a time. It's not a
20 real --
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
22 TOM HANEY: -- good copy of a photograph?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
24 TOM HANEY: Color copy.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible) telephone.
0554
1 TOM HANEY: Okay.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes). Binoculars, a
3 stapler and... binoculars and a stapler
4 (inaudible).
5 TOM HANEY: Do those items appear to be out
6 of place?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, I don't know why the
8 binoculars would be there.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you recognize the
10 binoculars?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, they might kind of
12 look like -- they look kind of like one John had
13 on the sailboat which are night vision or
14 something, they were kind of heavy duty, but I
15 don't know for sure. I don't know why they
16 would be in Colorado.
17 He had all this stuff up in, the white
18 stuff up in the -- he had like a storage room of
19 sails and stuff like that. I don't know why
20 they would be here if they are, if that's what
21 those are.
22 We had a pair of binoculars up on the
23 dress -- the high boy up in John Andrew's room,
24 more like in a leather case, like a leather
25 binocular case.
0555
1 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes).
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I think these are sailing
3 because this yellow thing I think makes it float
4 or something a little. John would know if
5 that's what that was.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: But you don't recall those
7 being around the house?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: No, not, I can't
9 (inaudible).
10 TRIP DeMUTH: But they do look like
11 something that you owned at some point or --
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, well, he had, you
13 know, all that kind of gear for the sailboat
14 races they had to have a lot of stuff like that
15 and that, I mean, it looks like it might be kind
16 of more sailing equipment than just like bird
17 watching or something, you know.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. And you think it was
19 night vision stuff?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I know he had a pair of
21 night vision on the sailboat.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: Is that something that you
23 would have left up there?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Now, those are not
0556
1 like regular binoculars, those are --
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Night vision are different.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Well, yeah, and quite a bit
4 higher up the price range?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Significantly.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't even know
8 that that's them, that yellow piece made me
9 think of the sailboats that have yellow.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. But it looks like a
11 strap?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
13 TOM HANEY: Next we have two color copies
14 of photo --
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Christmas something, I don't
16 know what it is.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: That's, I'll tell what you
18 that is, that is a still photo from a videotape.
19 It was looking down into a trash can. I don't
20 know which one for sure.
21 TOM HANEY: In the house.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: In the house, yeah. Took a
23 wastebasket in the house.
24 Do you recognize this stationery?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't know recognize
0557
1 anything. I mean, it looks like a Christmas
2 card, you know --
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes).
4 PATSY RAMSEY: That type of...
5 TRIP DeMUTH: Is it different than the
6 stationery that poems, the Christmas poems were
7 written on?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I think so because this has
9 a -- I don't remember that big bow like that,
10 and I don't know I can do this type of typing.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Type face on that. Where is
13 that? Didn't we have a picture?
14 TRIP DeMUTH: The police report has a -- do
15 you have the page number to that one?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: The video picture is of
17 the --
18 TOM HANEY: You know how you pan with the
19 video camera, police officer pans with the video
20 camera --
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, his video.
22 TOM HANEY: Yes.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh.
24 TOM HANEY: Pans down into a wastebasket.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh.
0558
1 TRIP DeMUTH: I don't have a number.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: It was looking near the
3 dining room.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Was it there?
5 TOM HANEY: 140 I think was some in the
6 dining room, so it might have been later,
7 though, because there so many different places.
8 TRIP DeMUTH: Yeah.
9 TOM HANEY: Here we go, this is 292.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, see, that's not the
11 same.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay, it's not?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Unh-unh (no).
14 TRIP DeMUTH: The photo of the --
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Facing the -- the preprinted
16 stationery is not the same.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
0559
1 (NOTE: THE FOLLOWING PORTION OF THE TRANSCRIPT
2 HAD NO VIDEO, ONLY AUDIO.)
3 TRIP DeMUTH: How about marking
4 this.
5 VOICE: Yes, does it look like it's
6 that portion of it, though?
7 VOICE: With the pen over
8 (INAUDIBLE).
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Kind of looks like
10 the writing goes through this little design.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Which is a horn and
13 --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
15 TRIP DeMUTH: -- some --
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, could be, but
17 this type would be a lot bigger. I mean, see
18 that --
19 TRIP DeMUTH: That takes up most of
20 the gap between here and there.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes. I did it with
22 special (INAUDIBLE) during the holidays at
23 Christmas and might (INAUDIBLE).
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: I don't know.
0560
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Hum? I can't -- I
2 can't tell.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: This looks to me
5 like a lot bigger than that. I mean if you had
6 the real thing, I could tell for sure.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: I don't think we
8 collected that.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I know, yeah.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: So looking at that
11 though, it doesn't ring any bells, you don't --
12 the poems you wrote -- I mean you have referred
13 this now that's in this photograph, you read the
14 portion that you can see.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: That doesn't jog your
17 memory as being part of the poem that you wrote?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it could be.
19 I mean, I don't know. I just can't see it well
20 enough.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Right, okay.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: You know there is a C
23 at the end there you can see, Merry Christmas.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: And also looks like
0561
1 it signed off there at the bottom.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: "Love you all".
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Love you all, Merry
4 Christmas.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe that's the
6 end.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you do that at
8 the end of your poems, those Christmas poems?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE). Was
10 the whole thing in that note, you know that
11 (INAUDIBLE) in the center there?
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Was --
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Was there more pages
14 than what was sort of just the picture, because
15 usually there was something about everybody's
16 party because I knew who was going to be there
17 so --
18 TRIP DeMUTH: We will look for that
19 stuff. What we wanted to do is just explore
20 your memory by showing you --
21 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
22 PATSY RAMSEY: It could be, but it
23 doesn't look proportionate, but if it is, maybe
24 it just a, you know, one that goofed and I threw
25 it away or something.
0562
1 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
2 TOM HANEY: Well, we have finished
3 the photos.
4 VOICE: Let me ask you a quick
5 question, Patsy, before we -- do you remember
6 what Burke wore at the Whites? I don't know if
7 that was asked previously or not?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, dear. I
9 thought there was a picture somewhere.
10 VOICE: Okay, but off the top of
11 your head you don't what he wore?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
13 VOICE: Okay. Go ahead, Tom.
14 TOM HANEY: Yesterday, we talked
15 about receiving a letter from McReynolds. And
16 that was before all of this?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
18 TOM HANEY: Okay. Did you have any
19 correspondence with them since then, with him?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Between that letter
21 and Christmas or --
22 TOM HANEY: Between the death and
23 today?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, not that I can
25 remember. I don't remember looking for it
0563
1 (INAUDIBLE).
2 TOM HANEY: Did you save cards,
3 letters, e-mails, anything that might have come
4 in?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yeah.
6 TOM HANEY: And were they indexed
7 in some way that could be -- you would be able
8 to find anything from him?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, I
10 wasn't doing it but --
11 TOM HANEY: Okay.
12 Did you receive anything else from
13 McReynolds, between Christmas of '96 and today?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: He was at the
15 funeral, at this memorial service in Colorado,
16 he was over, and he handed me a bottle of that
17 fairy stuff at the funeral. (INAUDIBLE).
18 TOM HANEY: And was that the last
19 contact that you had with him?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
21 TOM HANEY: So to your knowledge,
22 you wouldn't have received anything else, any
23 other cards, letters, e-mails, videotapes,
24 audiotapes?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I can
0564
1 remember.
2 TOM HANEY: How often did JonBenet
3 wet the bed? This is something that has come up
4 time and time again.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Not very often.
6 TOM HANEY: What is not very often?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe once a week,
8 maybe twice a week, I don't know. Didn't -- she
9 was getting -- she was much better. I mean she
10 was pretty much out of pull-ups largely, she
11 would wear them sometimes. I just didn't see it
12 as a problem.
13 TOM HANEY: Okay, I didn't say it
14 was a problem. I was just asking about it,
15 okay?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
17 TOM HANEY: So you say it's getting
18 better.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, better than
20 when she was little.
21 TOM HANEY: Right. And when she is
22 little, it's all the time?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
24 TOM HANEY: So then you start
25 toilet training?
0565
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.
2 TOM HANEY: And about when do you
3 start that?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Three; two, three.
5 TOM HANEY: Do you remember?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Not exactly.
7 TOM HANEY: After you started it,
8 tell me about it, did you have success?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I mean she
10 worked hard for a long time at night. Burke
11 worked hard for a long time at night.
12 TOM HANEY: How long did he wear
13 them?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: He wore them until
15 he was in kindergarten.
16 TOM HANEY: Which would be five?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Five, right.
18 TOM HANEY: You say that JonBenet
19 was getting better?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: She was going fewer
21 nights wearing pull-ups.
22 TOM HANEY: And wetting less
23 frequently?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
25 TOM HANEY: Did she have a problem
0566
1 occasionally with maybe more than one night,
2 maybe a couple in a row?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, maybe, but it
4 really would depend on if she, you know, had a
5 lot to drink at night late or didn't remember to
6 go to the bathroom like (INAUDIBLE) or like
7 that.
8 TOM HANEY: If she didn't go to the
9 bathroom before she went to bed, was that a
10 pretty good bet that she would wet?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Not necessarily.
12 It would be higher likelihood.
13 TOM HANEY: How about say on
14 Christmas night, had been at the Whites for
15 quite a while and then she falls asleep, and she
16 goes right -- she is put right to bed?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
18 TOM HANEY: Was there a good
19 likelihood that she would have wet that night?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Possibly.
21 TOM HANEY: Did anybody take her to
22 the bathroom before putting her to bed?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: No, she was sound
24 asleep.
25 TOM HANEY: Would she have gotten
0567
1 up herself and gone to the bathroom?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Possibly.
3 TOM HANEY: Okay, you said she was
4 getting better at not wetting, so I am assuming
5 she is getting better at--
6 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
7 TOM HANEY: -- taking care of that?
8 Okay. If she got up as a result of that, would
9 she stay up?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Not likely
11 (INAUDIBLE) went back to bed.
12 TOM HANEY: Do you recall if she
13 wet the bed on Christmas Eve, to Christmas
14 morning?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: No, no, she did
16 not.
17 TOM HANEY: How about going back
18 from then, from Christmas morning, do you recall
19 when the last time she was wet? Because we
20 talked yesterday about the changing of the
21 linen, the sheets, and we couldn't really pin
22 that down.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
24 TOM HANEY: Okay. But if there
25 were several stains on there and we figured it
0568
1 was around, if the maximum a week since the
2 linen was changed, would that indicate to you
3 wetting more than once, or--
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that was
5 (INAUDIBLE).
6 TOM HANEY: Right we were looking
7 at the pillow case, but we were also talking
8 about all of the bedding and how often it got
9 laundered and--
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that got
11 changed once a week, unless she wet the bed and
12 then of course it would be changed, you know.
13 TOM HANEY: Did you check the bed
14 on say Christmas day, morning?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. (INAUDIBLE).
16 TOM HANEY: Okay. But you
17 distinctly remember going and checking on that?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Plus she had her
19 pink pajamas on that she had put on the night
20 before. If she had wet it would have been
21 soaking wet and she wouldn't have had those on
22 in the Christmas picture, so --
23 TOM HANEY: Okay. If that's what
24 she, and you say that's what she wore to bed the
25 night before?
0569
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay, all right. Did
3 you ever discuss this with Dr. Buff, is that her
4 pediatrician?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I
6 remember.
7 TOM HANEY: It just wasn't a
8 concern?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
10 TOM HANEY: Okay. Were the other
11 children her age pretty much potty trained
12 though?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: The White children
14 were.
15 TOM HANEY: So this was not out of
16 the ordinary, not unusual for you?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
18 TOM HANEY: And you say you don't
19 remember if you discussed it with the doctor
20 or--
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I really don't
22 remember whether I did or not.
23 TOM HANEY: Okay. So if it's in
24 the medical records?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: We would have
0570
1 discussed it.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you remember
3 anybody suggesting any remedies, any devices,
4 any anything to help train JonBenet on the bed
5 wetting?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I didn't
7 consult a lot of people about it.
8 TOM HANEY: Okay?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
10 TOM HANEY: Did you consult anybody
11 about it?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I mean, I just
13 didn't think it was, you know, I had gone
14 through big children, they wet the bed, I mean
15 just, it wasn't a big deal. I didn't --
16 TOM HANEY: Okay?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I was not alarmed
18 by it, at all.
19 TOM HANEY: So it wasn't something
20 that you might seek some advice about?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
22 TOM HANEY: And if you did, who
23 would you have talked to about it?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think I
25 did.
0571
1 TOM HANEY: Okay. If you did, this
2 type of a problem?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: If I had thought it
4 was a problem, I probably would have talked with
5 her doctor about it, and I can't remember
6 talking with him about it. So --
7 TOM HANEY: Okay?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think it
9 was a problem.
10 TOM HANEY: You didn't consider it
11 one?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
13 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you recall
14 like I say discussing it with anybody?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I just, I don't
16 remember discussing it with anybody.
17 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you recall
18 talking to anybody about that as kind of a
19 source of frustration or a little problem, this
20 bed wetting?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: You know, it just
22 didn't seem like a problem to me. I have had
23 problems. I had cancer, that's a problem. You
24 know. It didn't seem to be a problem. So I
25 can't really say that I -- that it was on my
0572
1 mind to discuss with anybody.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. But it doesn't
3 have to be a problem to discuss something with
4 somebody, right?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember
6 ever discussing it with anybody, including her
7 doctor.
8 TOM HANEY: Okay.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: So -- you know, if
10 she wet the bed, if she had an accident, I take
11 the sheets off, throw them in the laundry, you
12 know. Que sera, sera.
13 TOM HANEY: Okay. You talked I
14 think it was yesterday about initially talking
15 to JonBenet about her private areas.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
17 TOM HANEY: And you use this swim
18 suit area, anything that's covered?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
20 TOM HANEY: Okay. She went to
21 Dr. Buff quite -- quite a few times?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
23 TOM HANEY: What types of exams did
24 Dr. Buff perform?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, he did a
0573
1 yearly physical examination, and then we were
2 there a lot for ear infections, sinus, she had a
3 lot of chronic sinus problems.
4 TOM HANEY: Now the ear and sinus
5 problem, was that a continuing thing, recurring?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: It was recurring,
7 yeah. She had kind of, you know, a little dark
8 circles you get under your eyes.
9 TOM HANEY: Did he recommend any
10 surgery or medication or anything like that?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, we -- just
12 amoxicillin and all that kind of stuff. Basic
13 kid stuff, you know.
14 TOM HANEY: Okay. And you said I
15 think yesterday that you were present when the
16 doctor performed his exams. Would you ever drop
17 JonBenet off, go somewhere, run an errand?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE
19 RESPONSE.)
20 TOM HANEY: Was anyone else present
21 during those exams?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: The nurse,
23 sometimes.
24 TOM HANEY: Did you know who she is
25 or was there more than one nurse?
0574
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, Judy was one
2 of 'em, Judy -- I can't remember. I know their
3 faces but I can't remember their name. Judy --
4 TOM HANEY: Okay. Did he ever do
5 any vaginal exam?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I think he,
7 you know, looked in that area, but we didn't do
8 like I would have a vaginal exam, for example.
9 TOM HANEY: Okay. And what do you
10 mean, how would you distinguish--
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I mean mine
12 would be invasive. Pap smear, et cetera, et
13 cetera. Certainly he did not do that on
14 JonBenet.
15 TOM HANEY: Nothing invasive at
16 all?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
18 TOM HANEY: Did he ever insert
19 anything or use any medical device?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I ever was
21 aware of.
22 TOM HANEY: But you were standing
23 there?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. So I would
25 say no.
0575
1 TOM HANEY: You were standing,
2 you're the only one outside of he and she that
3 was there?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: That's right.
5 TOM HANEY: So the answer would be
6 no?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
8 TOM HANEY: Okay. And did JonBenet
9 have on more than one occasion some vaginitis or
10 infection or--
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she would,
12 like we talked about earlier, you know, her
13 wiping habits weren't terrific. And so she had
14 urinated, maybe she wouldn't wipe properly and
15 her panties would get wet, a little damp, which
16 would cause a little irritation, you know, kind
17 of like diaper rash and the same with you know,
18 bowel movements. You know.
19 So I would use -- a lot of time I
20 used Desitin or something, she had some redness,
21 you know, so I used Desitin.
22 TOM HANEY: Is that something that
23 the doctor prescribed?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No, it's not
25 prescription. Desitin is for diaper rash.
0576
1 TOM HANEY: Okay. Did he ever
2 prescribe anything?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
4 TOM HANEY: Was it ever so bad
5 that, you know, I mean it was a real--
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
7 TOM HANEY: -- real problem for
8 her?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
10 TOM HANEY: Okay. And you said
11 that you would use this Desitin?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
13 TOM HANEY: You know, how often?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: You know, I don't
15 know. I just kept the tube in her bathroom
16 drawer there. If she complained that her bottom
17 was hurting I would take a little on a tissue,
18 you know, and put it on there. Not very often.
19 TOM HANEY: Okay. Did you ever
20 apply any other ointment or lotion or
21 prescription salve or anything like that?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
23 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you remember
24 the last -- I am sorry.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: What about when she
0577
1 had chicken pox?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Chicken pox? We
3 used -- took this oatmeal bath, Aveeno, and I
4 think caladryl or something like that. What did
5 we use for chicken pox, pink, drying stuff.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Did she have chicken
7 pox in her vaginal area?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I know she had a
9 great big one on her fanny. I think she had a
10 little scar from that. Burke had one on his eye
11 right there. I don't remember it being
12 (INAUDIBLE).
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you get an
14 ointment from Dr. Buff?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: For the chicken
16 pox?
17 TRIP DeMUTH: In her vaginal area?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.
19 I don't remember getting that.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
21 Do you recall the last time that
22 you had applied the Desitin?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: The Desitin? No.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: Would it have been
25 days, weeks, months, you know?
0578
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe within days.
2 I mean maybe once every couple of weeks she
3 might complain of a little irritation.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you remember her
5 complaining, was she a complainer?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
7 TOM HANEY: Whining every -- mom,
8 hey mom, this hurts?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
10 TOM HANEY: Okay, so did it have to
11 get pretty bad for her to say something or for
12 you to notice it?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, usually I
14 would notice it, you know, when she was bathing
15 or something.
16 TOM HANEY: How about at bath time?
17 What, is she old enough to take a bath by
18 herself?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
20 TOM HANEY: So who bathed her?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Me.
22 TOM HANEY: Anybody else?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
24 TOM HANEY: Baby-sitters?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, if Suzanne
0579
1 were there, she might or my mother would, or you
2 know.
3 TOM HANEY: Did JonBenet ever
4 complain about any inappropriate touching by
5 anybody?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
7 TOM HANEY: Absolutely sure?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Tom, just so I am
10 clear, the Desitin or any ointment or cream you
11 ever did apply was topical?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Topical.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: So there was never
14 any internal ointment?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Or cream that you
17 applied on JonBenet?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
19 TOM HANEY: You made three calls to
20 Dr. Buff 's office on December 7. Okay. Just--
21 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
22 TOM HANEY: Correct? Three in one
23 day. One at 6:28 p.m., one at 6:50 p.m., and
24 one at 6:59 p.m. Do you recall that day?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: To the office or
0580
1 his home?
2 TOM HANEY: To the office.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't
4 remember.
5 TOM HANEY: Would that have been
6 for something like this, to remember?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Seems like I would
8 have remembered, you know.
9 TOM HANEY: Three times in less
10 than an hour?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I just
12 don't --
13 TOM HANEY: Seems like you call--
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Did I have, is
15 there, you know, a check-up report after that,
16 as to what that was?
17 TOM HANEY: Um, sure -- well, I
18 would assume that his office made some sort of
19 at a minimum a notation?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
21 TOM HANEY: And or a chart entry, I
22 don't know. I haven't seen that. That's one of
23 the reasons I was asking you.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Ms. Ramsey, are
0581
1 you aware that there had been prior vaginal
2 intrusion on JonBenet?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.
4 Prior to the night she was killed?
5 TOM HANEY: Correct.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.
7 TOM HANEY: Didn't know that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I didn't.
9 TOM HANEY: Does that surprise you?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Extremely.
11 TOM HANEY: Does that shock you?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: It shocks me.
13 TOM HANEY: Does it bother you?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it does.
15 TOM HANEY: Who, how could she have
16 been violated like that?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. This
18 is the absolute first time I ever heard that.
19 TOM HANEY: Take a minute, if you
20 would, I mean this seems -- you know, you didn't
21 know that before right now, the 25th, at 2:32?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I absolutely
23 did not.
24 TOM HANEY: Okay. Does--
25 PATSY RAMSEY: And I would like to
0582
1 see where it says that and who reported that.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Do you have that?
4 TOM HANEY: Well, I don't have it
5 with us, no. As you can imagine, there is a lot
6 of material, and we surely didn't bring all the
7 photos, but--
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, can you find
9 that?
10 TOM HANEY: Yeah. Because I think
11 it's pretty significant?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's damn
13 significant. You know, I am shocked.
14 ELLIS ARMISTEAD: To be fair, Tom,
15 that's been a subject of debate in the newspaper
16 whether or not she represented what is true as a
17 fact. I don't want you to alarm my client too
18 much here about whether or not it's absolutely a
19 fact. I just think that should be mentioned to
20 be fair to my client.
21 TOM HANEY: And based on the
22 reliable medical information that we have at
23 this point, that is a fact.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Now when you say
25 violated, what are you -- what are you telling
0583
1 me here?
2 TOM HANEY: That there was some
3 prior vaginal intrusion that something --
4 something was inserted?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Prior to this night
6 that she was assaulted?
7 TOM HANEY: That's the--
8 PATSY RAMSEY: What report as -- I
9 want to see, I want to see what you're talking
10 about here. I am -- I am -- I don't -- I am
11 shocked.
12 TOM HANEY: Well, that's one of the
13 things that's been bothering us about the case.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No damn kidding.
15 TOM HANEY: What does that tell
16 you?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: It doesn't tell me
18 anything. I mean, I knew -- I -- I --
19 TOM HANEY: Okay, for a second --
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Did you know about
21 this?
22 ELLIS ARMISTEAD: I tried to stay
23 out of the making of the record and inserting
24 myself into the tape-recording of this
25 interview. The newspapers have talked about
0584
1 this. Whether or not--
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, they talk
3 about a lot of things that are not true.
4 ELLIS ARMISTEAD: And there has
5 been a debate among the people who talked about
6 the findings in the autopsy report as to whether
7 there was a prior vaginal intrusion or not. So
8 when you ask, either Tom or me or Trip or
9 Jennifer, did we know that, there has been a
10 debate about that. Even in the newspaper.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I do not know
12 of anything and I am very distressed about this.
13 TOM HANEY: Who could have done
14 such a thing?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I do not know. I
16 don't have any idea.
17 TOM HANEY: What is your best
18 guess?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I couldn't begin to
20 guess. I am shocked. I don't have any idea. I
21 am just -- I can't believe, I just can't believe
22 this.
23 TOM HANEY: Would that knowledge
24 change your answer to any question that you have
25 been asked?
0585
1 PATSY RAMSEY: No, sir. I have
2 answered every question you or anyone else has
3 asked me to the best of my ability.
4 TOM HANEY: Would that answer or
5 would that statement, that information, would
6 that lead you in any particular direction?
7 Would you think about a particular person being
8 involved or doing something, with JonBenet?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't -- I
10 don't -- I just am shocked is all I can say. I
11 don't -- I don't know what I think. You know, I
12 just want to see where it says that.
13 TOM HANEY: And prior to today, had
14 you heard or read or seen anything about--
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I had heard that
16 the night she was killed that she may have
17 had -- have been sexually assaulted. But not
18 prior to that. Absolutely.
19 TOM HANEY: Have you ever suffered
20 any physical abuse?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Absolutely not.
22 TOM HANEY: In childhood, you know,
23 dating, your adult life?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: (NO AUDIBLE
25 RESPONSE).
0586
1 TOM HANEY: How about sexual abuse?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: (NO AUDIBLE
3 RESPONSE).
4 TOM HANEY: How about anybody in
5 your family ever suffered any physical abuse?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Not to my
7 knowledge.
8 TOM HANEY: Your sisters?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Not to my
10 knowledge.
11 TOM HANEY: Sexual abuse, have they
12 ever confided in you that--
13 PATSY RAMSEY: No. No. What's
14 this got to do with JonBenet?
15 TOM HANEY: What it has to do with
16 first of all, is, whether or not you have ever
17 really discussed things like this with people or
18 somebody has confided in you?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
20 TOM HANEY: A friend . And I
21 mentioned your sisters, you have two, correct?
22 What was your relationship with them growing up?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Very close.
24 TOM HANEY: How -- what are your
25 ages, how close are you?
0587
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I am two and a half
2 years older than my next sister and --
3 TOM HANEY: Which is?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Pam.
5 TOM HANEY: And--
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Seven years older
7 than Paulette.
8 TOM HANEY: Okay. But you guys
9 were all raised together?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
11 TOM HANEY: Spend a lot of time
12 together?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
14 TOM HANEY: Were all of you
15 involved in pageants at an early age?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TOM HANEY: Okay. Were the other
18 two?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Pam was, Ms. West
20 Virginia two years after I was, or three.
21 Paulette was not.
22 TOM HANEY: Did Paulette have any
23 problem with pageants or object to 'em or just--
24 PATSY RAMSEY: She was a swimmer.
25 TOM HANEY: Okay, so that just
0588
1 wasn't her thing?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
3 TOM HANEY: In growing up, were all
4 of you treated pretty much the same?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: As far as I could
6 tell.
7 TOM HANEY: No favorite? Youngest,
8 oldest?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Not from my
10 perspective, no.
11 TOM HANEY: And growing up, what
12 was your socio-economic status?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: We lived in a very
14 nice neighborhood, drove nice new cars. I
15 thought we had everything. You know, I don't --
16 I have never --
17 TOM HANEY: Never wanted for
18 things?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Never.
20 TOM HANEY: Okay, able to travel
21 and--
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Take vacations.
23 TOM HANEY: Go out?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Whatever.
25 TOM HANEY: The morning of the
0589
1 26th, you pick up the phone, call 911. Do you
2 remember, and we talked before, the
3 conversation?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I am sure you must
5 have it on there.
6 TOM HANEY: Absolutely we do. So
7 you know that the telephone calls to the Boulder
8 police department are tape-recorded?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I would not have.
10 TOM HANEY: I think they are. In
11 fact, they are recorded from the time that
12 connection is made until it's broken and that
13 isn't to say if you stop talking that that's the
14 end of it.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
16 TOM HANEY: The morning of the
17 26th, you called the Boulder police department,
18 you talked to a dispatcher.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I guess if that's
20 where it goes, that's where I called.
21 TOM HANEY: Correct. And when you
22 stopped talking, there was a time that was tape-
23 recorded for a few seconds where there was some
24 additional conversation, conversation at your
25 house?
0590
1 PATSY RAMSEY: By whom?
2 TOM HANEY: That's what I am going
3 to ask you.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean John Ramsey
5 was down on the floor reading the note. I was
6 frantically calling 911. I have to hear it to
7 know what you're talking about.
8 TOM HANEY: Was there any
9 conversation immediately following your last
10 word to the dispatcher?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.
12 I was out of my mind, my child was missing. I
13 was trying to convey that to the person on the
14 other end of the line, okay. I don't remember.
15 If you have it on tape and you would like me to
16 hear it, I will listen to it, see if that jogs
17 my memory.
18 TOM HANEY: It is on tape.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: All right.
20 All right. If you have got the
21 tape we can play it, I will try to help you. I
22 can't remember what's in the (INAUDIBLE).
23 TOM HANEY: When was JonBenet's
24 birthday?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: August 6, 1990.
0591
1 TOM HANEY: When is the last time
2 that you visited the graveside?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: About a month ago.
4 TOM HANEY: Do you go on a regular
5 basis or--
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
7 TOM HANEY: Frequent?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Not as frequently
9 as I would like.
10 TOM HANEY: Did you go on
11 particular days?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
13 TOM HANEY: Would you go on her
14 birthday or the anniversary of her death or --
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably not,
16 because there is a bunch of idiots out there
17 waiting for me to show up. It's a very personal
18 time and I don't care to be photographed at my
19 child's gravesite.
20 TOM HANEY: We talked yesterday or
21 the day before too about I told you of a
22 personal experience of being a policeman, people
23 tend to lie to me and you told me a few minutes
24 ago that you're telling me everything that you
25 know about.
0592
1 PATSY RAMSEY: That's correct.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. And that's all
3 been truthful?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, sir.
5 TOM HANEY: And I told you then
6 that I wouldn't lie to you. And I don't have
7 any reason to lie to you.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Great.
9 TOM HANEY: And I didn't lie to you
10 about the information, this medical information
11 that I told you about.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay, this is very
13 hurtful.
14 TOM HANEY: I know that. And if I
15 told you right now that we have in the process
16 of being examined trace evidence that appears to
17 link you to the death of JonBenet, what would
18 you tell me?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: That's totally
20 incredible. (INAUDIBLE).
21 TOM HANEY: How is it impossible?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I did not kill my
23 child. I didn't have a thing to do with it.
24 TOM HANEY: And I am not talking,
25 you know, somebody's guess or some rumor or some
0593
1 story.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't care what
3 you're talking about.
4 TOM HANEY: I am talking about
5 scientific evidence.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't give a damn
7 how scientific it is, go back to the damn
8 drawing board. I didn't do it. John Ramsey
9 didn't do it and we didn't have a clue of
10 anybody who did do it. So we all got to be
11 working together from this day forward to try to
12 find out who the hell did it.
13 I mean, I appreciate being here. I
14 appreciate it, it's very hard to be here. It is
15 a damn sight harder to be sitting at home in
16 Atlanta, Georgia wondering every second of every
17 day what you guys are doing out here, you know;
18 have you found anything, are we any closer, is
19 the guy out here watching my house.
20 You know, it's -- my life has been
21 hell from that day forward. And I want nothing
22 more than to find out who is responsible for
23 this. Okay. I mean, I want to work with you,
24 not against you. Okay.
25 This child was the most precious
0594
1 thing in my life, and I can't stand the thought
2 thinking somebody's out there walking on the
3 street, God knows what, molest some other child.
4 Quit screwing around asking me things that are
5 ridiculous and let's find the person, let's end
6 that this.
7 (INAUDIBLE CONVERSATION HAD OFF THE
8 RECORD.)
9 TOM HANEY: Do you feel any guilt
10 over the death?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I wish I had had a
12 big dog in my house. I wish I had used my
13 security system. All stuff like that.
14 TOM HANEY: Are there other things
15 that you think you could have done or might have
16 done to protect JonBenet?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Those are the
18 biggest ones. I mean, you know, it's pretty
19 damn sad that you can't go to sleep at night in
20 your own house. Safely.
21 TOM HANEY: What have you
22 personally done to try to find the killer?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: I hired all these
24 people. I have, we have a reward out, you know.
25 TOM HANEY: How much is the reward?
0595
1 PATSY RAMSEY: A hundred thousand
2 dollars.
3 TOM HANEY: Do you remember when
4 that was posted?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: That was posted
6 very soon afterwards.
7 TOM HANEY: Could you tell me why
8 you didn't cooperate with the Boulder police?
9 And I know that there were some problems, but
10 tell me in your own words, what happened, where
11 was the breakdown.
12 ELLIS ARMISTEAD: You know, I
13 resent the word that she failed to cooperate so
14 much that I want that to appear on whatever
15 transcript is made. I do not feel that
16 Mrs. Ramsey failed to cooperate with the Boulder
17 Police Department and I want that to appear on
18 whatever record is made of this.
19 MR. HANEY: Okay.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't feel that I
21 failed to cooperate with the police. I mean, I
22 called them the morning that my child was
23 missing. You know, I didn't call the fire
24 department, I didn't call the security company
25 or Ellis Armistead. I called the Boulder Police
0596
1 Department, okay. They were in my home from
2 early morning until days later, I understand.
3 They asked me questions. I told them everything
4 that I could do to help them. I had no idea
5 that we would ever be even remotely accused of
6 being involved in this.
7 TOM HANEY: Okay. And maybe that's
8 where we need to clarify this. Was that the
9 source of this friction, that they had accused
10 you or you felt accused?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I, the first -- my
12 first knowledge of the fact that I was being
13 considered to be -- to have been involved in
14 this was when I was in Atlanta, and we were
15 going to go down to see Nan (phonetic) to talk
16 about, and I remember saying we have to thank
17 everyone that has sent us these wonderful cards
18 and la-de-da de-da, and a friend of mine was --
19 I was in the bathroom getting ready and she said
20 I have to tell you something. She said they are
21 going to ask you if you were involved in
22 JonBenet's death. Because she said there are
23 some people out there that think that you may
24 have did it. And I was just appalled. I
25 couldn't (INAUDIBLE) -- I just couldn't
0597
1 (INAUDIBLE).
2 TOM HANEY: Okay, and what didn't
3 you understand? I know that you're not a police
4 officer and not used to dealing with this, but
5 what did -- what didn't you understand?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I couldn't imagine
7 that anyone would think that I would or John
8 Ramsey would have anything to do with this. It
9 was just inconceivable to me.
10 TOM HANEY: And why is that?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Why would it be? I
12 mean --
13 TOM HANEY: Okay, you read the
14 newspapers?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I do.
16 TOM HANEY: Okay?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I did. I don't
18 now.
19 TOM HANEY: Okay, prior to this,
20 there was a lady Susan Smith back southeast
21 somewhere, drove the car in the lake with her
22 two children. Whom did you suspect right off
23 the bat?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: You know, I really
25 hadn't followed that that much, until I mean, I
0598
1 think I mentioned this incident in the CNN
2 interview, because my friend that took me in the
3 bathroom and said hey, guess what, because I
4 looked at her and I said, I can't -- what do you
5 mean and she said, she said it like this just
6 isn't thing (INAUDIBLE).
7 You know, people, she said she
8 didn't do it and she did do it, so they
9 immediately are suspecting the parents. And I
10 was --
11 TOM HANEY: Right, okay. And in
12 fact she did do it?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: She did.
14 TOM HANEY: Okay. And I think you
15 have been or somebody from the family or the
16 attorneys contacted John Douglas, the guy that
17 wrote the profiler book, former FBI profiler,
18 and he talks about this was somebody who was
19 familiar with the house, close to the family,
20 had been there. You know, a lot of things like
21 that.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
23 TOM HANEY: So where does that lead
24 the police? I mean what's the most logical
25 place to start?
0599
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I
2 mean (INAUDIBLE).
3 TOM HANEY: Okay. But dis--
4 PATSY RAMSEY: All I am saying is
5 I took great offense to that, and was devastated
6 to think that anybody would think that about me,
7 me or my husband.
8 TOM HANEY: Okay. From a police
9 perspective or an investigative standpoint, you
10 don't start out in left field, you start at home
11 plate.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
13 TOM HANEY: And you go from there.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: All right.
15 TOM HANEY: Because on the night of
16 the 25th, there were four people in that house?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: What?
18 TOM HANEY: I am saying when you
19 went to bed there were four people?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: We don't know that.
21 TOM HANEY: What do you think?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I have always
23 thought that perhaps while we were gone, that
24 the person or persons came into the house and
25 were there when we got back.
0600
1 TOM HANEY: What makes you think
2 that?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Because we were
4 gone several hours, and they could have had
5 their way with the house. Have known where
6 flashlights were, where pads of paper were,
7 where bibles were, where Christmas cards were,
8 where -- you know. If we are gone three or four
9 hours. No one knows for sure.
10 TOM HANEY: Well, somebody knows?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Somebody knows,
12 you're damn right somebody knows, and I want to
13 find that.
14 TOM HANEY: Let's just stay with
15 your theory for a minute here. This thing that
16 you mentioned, whether it's a theory or not.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
18 TOM HANEY: That while you're gone
19 to the Whites somebody comes in?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
21 TOM HANEY: When you come home from
22 the Whites, do you notice different lights on,
23 do you notice doors open that weren't open?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
25 TOM HANEY: Okay, do you know--
0601
1 PATSY RAMSEY:
2 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
3 TOM HANEY: I am not badgering?
4 PATSY RAMSEY:
5 TOM HANEY: Except not in this way,
6 I mean when --
7 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
8 TOM HANEY: That night when you
9 came?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: We haven't but
11 other people have.
12 TOM HANEY: Okay, and again both of
13 us haven't been privy to everything the other
14 one's done.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: All right.
16 TOM HANEY: Okay. Anything out of
17 place then? Would anything have caught your
18 eye?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: If it had, by God
20 you would have known it before today. I laid
21 awake nights trying to recall this.
22 TOM HANEY: So is there anything in
23 the evidence that you're aware of that gives any
24 credence to that thought?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I haven't seen all
0602
1 the evidence. I mean I appreciate having seen
2 what I have seen for the past two days, if we
3 keep doing that, or three or whatever we have
4 been going, it's hard, it's emotionally hard but
5 I am ready, bring it on, let me see, maybe there
6 is, maybe Ellis or some of these people could
7 that we have all been studying this for a year
8 and a half would turn the light bulb on, you
9 know. But we can't do it if we are going like
10 this.
11 TOM HANEY: That's right, we can't
12 do it if we are over here and here?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: You're so right,
14 that's why I am here. I said I would come back
15 to Colorado for two reasons, one to do exactly
16 what I am doing so that you guys night and day
17 and night and day and night and day if you want
18 me to to help catch this person for a trial.
19 Send the guy up the river that did this
20 (INAUDIBLE).
21 TOM HANEY: And--
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I invited your
23 people, are you (INAUDIBLE) -- you're a
24 compatriot .
25 VOICE: Thank you, I am a kind of a
0603
1 (INAUDIBLE).
2 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
3 PATSY RAMSEY: I invited them to
4 my home, you know, in that manner, declined. I
5 mean I have tried. To get them here before.
6 TOM HANEY: We have discussed
7 another possible theory, that somebody got in.
8 How about the theory that this was an accident?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
10 TOM HANEY: That somewhere during
11 the night between the time you guys got home,
12 ten-ish, and one, two in the morning, and I am
13 just kind of narrowing it down there because we
14 have a screen and we have partially digested
15 food and things like that between those times
16 was we will say that JonBenet got up and
17 somebody in that house legally lawfully in that
18 house, wasn't the three of you also happened to
19 be up or get up because she makes a noise, and
20 there is some discussion or something happens,
21 there is an accident, somebody--
22 PATSY RAMSEY: You're on the wrong
23 path, buddy.
24 TOM HANEY: Somebody accidentally
25 or somebody gets upset over bedwetting, that's
0604
1 one of the things that's been proposed. Okay.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) if she
3 got up in the night and ran into somebody, there
4 was somebody there that wasn't supposed to be
5 there. I don't know what transpired after that,
6 whether it was an accident, intentional,
7 premeditated or what not. There was not one of
8 her three family members that were also in that
9 house, period, end of statement.
10 If you want to, you know, keep
11 talking on a dream like this.
12 ELLIS ARMISTEAD: Don't say that,
13 he might take you up on that.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you're not
15 keeping me here, is what I am saying. You know,
16 there has been 101 theories out there by every
17 Globe, tabloid, piece of blankety-blank trash
18 coming and going, and I hope to heaven there is
19 some evidence somewhere, you know, that has more
20 sense to it than what these idiots out there are
21 writing in the tabloid trash, okay.
22 TOM HANEY: And they can write
23 whatever they want?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: They sure as hell
25 can, and it doesn't bother me one bit.
0605
1 TOM HANEY: Then we can get--
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Let's get off it.
3 TOM HANEY: That will work.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: That will work with
5 me.
6 TOM HANEY: Tell me what secrets do
7 you keep from John?
8 You're hysterical, John is cool,
9 calm, he's the CEO, he's down there studying
10 this note on the floor?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably not
12 studying. Cool and calm.
13 TOM HANEY: Okay. He wasn't
14 emotionally upset like you as far as screaming
15 and hysterical?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: He is emotional.
17 TOM HANEY: Okay. He was more
18 composed though at least at that point?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: There weren't a
20 bunch of people is there in the house yet. I
21 was talking to the 911 person. So I don't know
22 what conversation.
23 TOM HANEY: Were only your family
24 in the house at that time?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct. Burke was
0606
1 upstairs asleep. John was here on the floor in
2 his underwear looking at the note, I was on the
3 floor calling 911. I mean you play it for me, I
4 will try to do my best.
5 TOM HANEY: And like I said, you
6 know, I can't right at this moment.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay, well.
8 TOM HANEY: But I am sure that down
9 the road that's something that everybody would
10 like to see be done.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, then it's too
12 hard for me to speculate with that.
13 TOM HANEY: You don't recall?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
15 TOM HANEY: We started off Tuesday
16 and we talked about you making that 911 call.
17 And now I am going to take it in little
18 different context. Again back to the question I
19 had at the time. You're hysterical. John is
20 cool, calm, he's the CEO, he's down there
21 studying this note on the floor?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably not
23 studying. Cool and calm.
24 TOM HANEY: Okay. He wasn't
25 emotionally upset like you as far as screaming
0607
1 and hysterical?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: He is emotional and
3 (INAUDIBLE).
4 TOM HANEY: Okay. He was more
5 composed though, at least at that point?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
7 TOM HANEY: Okay. Just seems odd--
8 PATSY RAMSEY: He was on the
9 floor, I am on the phone.
10 TOM HANEY: Seems odd that he would
11 tell you to call the cops.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Why? Why is that
13 odd?
14 TOM HANEY: Well because, like I
15 said, he seems to be in a little more control.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah well, at that
17 moment in time, nobody was in any kind of
18 control. When you wake up at the crack of dawn
19 and your child is not in the bed that you put
20 them in the night before, you are not in
21 control. Okay?
22 TOM HANEY: Okay.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Now, I don't know
24 who is more or less in or out of control. But
25 you do what you feel like you need to do at the
0608
1 time, and whoever -- you know, it's not the time
2 to sit down and write out the script. I will
3 read, you call. You know. You just do it.
4 TOM HANEY: And in the note and at
5 that point you had only read like the first
6 paragraph that says we have your daughter, small
7 foreign faction, there were instructions in the
8 letter, things like that?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know about
10 that far. I read up to where we have your
11 daughter.
12 TOM HANEY: I have got a copy here
13 and I highlighted a bunch of things, some we
14 will talk about and some we won't, okay, but it
15 start off, "Mr. Ramsey," which I think for a
16 kidnapper is pretty polite. Do you find that at
17 all unusual?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I find this whole
19 thing unusual, okay.
20 TOM HANEY: Okay. How about the
21 practice note or this other writing on this
22 other page that starts off Mr. and Mrs.?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
24 TOM HANEY: Okay. Again--
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
0609
1 TOM HANEY: It seems a little
2 weird?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: It does, the whole
4 thing seems weird.
5 TOM HANEY: Okay, the fact that the
6 tablet was one that was there in the house?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
8 TOM HANEY: I think we are all in
9 agreement on that?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
11 TOM HANEY: The Sharpy pen was from
12 your house?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Are you sure about
14 that?
15 TOM HANEY: Well, I am not
16 completely sure, but I am pretty sure.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Because?
18 TOM HANEY: Because of testing, but
19 I couldn't swear to that at this moment. I had
20 not read every bit of laboratory studies.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Every Sharpy pen
22 alike? I mean, I don't know.
23 TOM HANEY: No, I mean obviously
24 things, you know, produced at different times
25 are different, but sometimes batches and
0610
1 sometimes individual things. But anyway --
2 PATSY RAMSEY: But the tablet was
3 from my house?
4 TOM HANEY: But we are pretty sure.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
6 TOM HANEY: Now this is a pretty
7 polite kidnapper to write Mr. or Mr. and Mrs..
8 But they are not too well prepared, because they
9 didn't bring -- I got here, I forgot my pen. So
10 they find the tablet and write the note.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
12 TOM HANEY: Now, as you're reading
13 through it, "we have your daughter." Now you
14 said that that kind of set off a (INAUDIBLE)?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
16 TOM HANEY: She is safe and
17 unharmed. But follow our instructions to the
18 letter. About that time, you kind of go
19 upstairs.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
21 TOM HANEY: So at some later point,
22 you read more of it?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: I glanced at it,
24 yeah.
25 TOM HANEY: Okay, and I think you
0611
1 said you observed that it said 118,000?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
3 TOM HANEY: And what is that to
4 you?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: That seemed like a
6 very unusual amount of money. But if it was
7 somebody interested in Access-related, they
8 would have asked for a lot more money than that.
9 TOM HANEY: First of all, it's kind
10 of an unusual amount?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: It's an unusual
12 amount.
13 TOM HANEY: Plus kind of like
14 winning the lottery, who wants to win a little
15 lottery, you want to win the 10 million?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Exactly.
17 TOM HANEY: What would a 118,000 be
18 to you guys, the price of a new sailboat?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
20 TOM HANEY: Insignificant pay--
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, not --
22 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
23 PATSY RAMSEY: A sum of money, but
24 I would -- you know, it would just seem like
25 especially somebody that made reference to
0612
1 business and all that, you know, they would be
2 knowledgeable that Access had just made a
3 million -- a billion dollar year something, I
4 mean why would you piddle around with 118
5 thousand dollars. So it just seemed unusual to
6 me.
7 TOM HANEY: Then in the middle of
8 the next paragraph it says bring an adequate
9 psych (sic) attache. Adequate size attache.
10 Again we have a pretty polite kidnapper. The
11 delivery will be exhausting, they are preparing
12 somebody for all this. Again, unlike any other
13 ransom note that I have ever seen.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
15 TOM HANEY: Well, I have seen a
16 few. Now we start getting into, okay, immediate
17 execution your daughter depends her remains for
18 proper burial. Two gentlemen will be watching
19 her. Police, FBI, your daughter will be
20 beheaded --
21 (NOTE: DUE TO INAUDIBILITY, THE
22 TRANSCRIBER HAD TO REPEAT THE TAPE AND IS
23 REPEATING IT HERE FOR CLARITY.)
24 So they find a tablet and write the
25 note. Now, as you're reading through it, we
0613
1 have your daughter, now you said that that kind
2 of set off a more--
3 PATSY RAMSEY: You're right.
4 TOM HANEY: She is safe and
5 unharmed. But follow our instructions to the
6 letter. About that time, you kind of go
7 upstairs.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
9 TOM HANEY: So at some later point,
10 you read more of it?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I glanced at it,
12 yes.
13 TOM HANEY: Okay. And I think you
14 said you observed that it said 118,000?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
16 TOM HANEY: Okay, and what is that
17 to you?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: It seems like a
19 very unusual amount of money. But if it was
20 somebody interested in Access, related, they
21 would have asked for a lot more money than that.
22 TOM HANEY: First of all it's kind
23 of an unusual amount?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: It's an unusual
25 amount.
0614
1 TOM HANEY: Right. Plus, you know,
2 it's kind of like winning the lottery. I mean
3 who wants to win just a little lottery, you kind
4 of want to win the 10 million?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, exactly.
6 TOM HANEY: What would 118,000 be
7 to you guys, the price of a new sailboat?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
9 TOM HANEY: Insignificant, paid--
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No, not -- I mean,
11 not a large sum of money, but I mean, I would
12 you know, it would just seem like especially
13 somebody that made reference to business and all
14 that, you know, they would be knowledgeable that
15 Access had just made a million -- billion dollar
16 year something, I mean why would you piddle
17 around with $118,000. You know. So it just
18 seemed unusual to me.
19 TOM HANEY: Then in the middle of
20 the next paragraph it says bring an adequate
21 psyched attache or size. Adequate size attache.
22 Again we have get a pretty polite kidnapper?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
24 TOM HANEY: The delivery will be
25 exhausting, they are preparing somebody for all
0615
1 this. And again, unlike any of the other ransom
2 note that I have ever seen.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: I have never seen a
4 ransom note.
5 TOM HANEY: Well, I have seen a
6 few. Now we start getting, okay, immediate
7 execution of your daughter. Denied her remains
8 for proper burial. Two gentlemen will be
9 watching her. Police, FBI, your daughter will
10 be beheaded if she -- if she dies, she dies, she
11 dies, 99 percent chance of killing her. You get
12 through all of that?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I didn't
14 (INAUDIBLE). You know, I caught a few of those
15 words but I just couldn't -- (INAUDIBLE). I
16 couldn't seem to go there.
17 TOM HANEY: But still you call the
18 police?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, sir.
20 TOM HANEY: Did you and John have
21 any discussion though about all of these
22 admonitions in this letter?
23 ELLIS ARMISTEAD: You mean other
24 than what she's talked about before?
25 TOM HANEY: I think what we are
0616
1 talking about here, about the, you know,
2 daughter --
3 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
4 TOM HANEY: The admonitions--
5 PATSY RAMSEY: We didn't go over
6 this together, no.
7 TOM HANEY: I mean all this
8 happened so fast. I mean, you know, you're just
9 out of your mind. You know, when you're -- I
10 mean I got the lady on the phone, or man,
11 whatever it was, said help, come over here.
12 Why do you think they did say Mr.
13 and Mrs. Ramsey then said Mr. only?
14 TOM HANEY: Well, I think it's
15 pretty bizarre. That kind of indicates some
16 respect, a Mr..
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. So why would
18 they have had Mr. and Mrs. on one and then not
19 use it on --
20 TOM HANEY: They seemed to change
21 their focus. Whoever it is or is this all part
22 of this elaborate cover-up, because if you go to
23 all this trouble to get in and bring maybe some
24 items, you forget others, and the whole goal, I
25 would imagine, with the kidnapping for ransom is
0617
1 A, to take the collateral with you, so that B,
2 you can collect your money.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
4 TOM HANEY: And they leave the
5 collateral.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
7 TOM HANEY: But they leave a note
8 too?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
10 TOM HANEY: Which again some of
11 what John Douglas, all what the current
12 profilers, everybody that's looked at it, that's
13 what the indication is, somebody (INAUDIBLE)?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
15 TOM HANEY: Of course.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, (INAUDIBLE).
17 (THE TAPE IS JUMPING AND TOTALLY
18 INAUDIBLE AT THIS POINT).
19 TOM HANEY: Uh-hum. You and John
20 have been totally supportive of each other
21 throughout this whole thing. At least in the
22 interviews that I have seen, we discussed
23 yesterday how there is this perception that you
24 haven't really been at least close but you seem
25 to (INAUDIBLE) --
0618
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Perception, yeah.
2 TOM HANEY: Well, there is the
3 perception, I think we talked about it at the
4 house that day, with the cops observed that you
5 guys aren't spending time together, he is in one
6 room on the phone, things like that.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: It was hardly a
8 social. The man was trying to do everything in
9 his power to get this child back. All right?
10 He was calling to get money, fast. He was
11 working with Linda Arndt and company with
12 getting wires, phone taps, know. I was praying.
13 We were both doing what we do best.
14 TOM HANEY: It does seem odd though
15 that in talking with you, that you and John
16 haven't spent an awful lot of time discussing
17 what had happened, like last night you said
18 that, you know, you were tired and so you talked
19 about--
20 PATSY RAMSEY: You know like this
21 morning you say did you talk about this with
22 John and, you know, I figured you didn't like us
23 to do that too much.
24 TOM HANEY: But you had 18 months
25 to do that?
0619
1 PATSY RAMSEY: You're right.
2 TOM HANEY: And have you talked
3 about it a lot, have you discussed all of these
4 various theories?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Over and over and
6 over.
7 TOM HANEY: You say he didn't do it
8 and he says you didn't do it, and didn't have
9 any part in any coverup, anything like that.
10 Any staging. That only leaves one other person
11 alive in the house at the time, that's Burke.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: And the murderer.
13 TOM HANEY: Well, I am saying there
14 is only one other person at that point in time,
15 in the morning, right?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
17 TOM HANEY: 6:52 and 5:52 a.m.?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. So?
19 TOM HANEY: You, John and Burke?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct. That we
21 know of.
22 TOM HANEY: At that point?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE). And?
24 TOM HANEY: So you said it wasn't
25 you and it wasn't John. Could it have been
0620
1 Burke?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No. It wouldn't
3 have been Burke.
4 TOM HANEY: Why couldn't it?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: How do you believe
6 you saw (INAUDIBLE) a ten-year old, nine-year
7 old boy (INAUDIBLE). Plus the fact that he
8 loved his sister.
9 TOM HANEY: It's not unheard of for
10 a nine or ten-year old child?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: My child it is
12 unheard of.
13 TOM HANEY: And why is that? What
14 would make him different from some other nine or
15 ten-year old?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Because he was not
17 raised in a family of violence. We are a very
18 loving family.
19 TOM HANEY: Could it have been an
20 accident?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I -- don't know.
22 TOM HANEY: Well you and I don't
23 know because we weren't there?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
25 TOM HANEY: So do you think it
0621
1 could have been, he could have pushed her down
2 the stairs--
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Burke Ramsey did not
4 do this, okay. He did not do this. Get off it.
5 TOM HANEY: How do you know that,
6 though? I mean, have you talked to him about
7 it?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, we are going
9 to find out who did this to JonBenet. He's been
10 in counseling, doctors say that he's handling this
11 the way that a child copes best with the death of
12 a very close family member. I doubt that a nine
13 or ten-year old child could harbor such a thing
14 for a year and a half.
15 TOM HANEY: And you say they were
16 very close?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: They were very
18 close.
19 TOM HANEY: Okay. Did they ever
20 have any little squabbles, did they ever fight?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe she would
22 step on his Leg-O's, he would be unhappy.
23 TOM HANEY: But that was it?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Or you know, no
25 violence (INAUDIBLE).
0622
1 TOM HANEY: He wouldn't chase after
2 her, "JonBenet, I am going to " --
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No way.
4 TOM HANEY: No? That was as upset
5 as he ever got?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Pretty much
7 (INAUDIBLE).
8 (TAPE IS JUMPING AND CRACKING
9 MAKING IT IMPOSSIBLE TO HEAR ANYTHING BEING
10 SAID.)
11 TOM HANEY: Before we do this, I
12 think you had some questions or at least Mr.
13 Burke told us that you had some or you said you
14 had some. Do you want to take like a ten-minute
15 break, let him change the tape and then --
16 ELLIS ARMISTEAD: Let me ask one as
17 a starter and then we will find out how the
18 questions are really going to answer. Would you
19 tell me the results of the DNA testing?
20 TOM HANEY: I would if I could, but
21 I don't know.
22 ELLIS ARMISTEAD: Why don't you ask
23 a couple of questions then we will discuss it.
24 VOICE: I have a series of
25 questions.
0623
1 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
2 TOM HANEY: So we can discuss it
3 and decide whether -- what we can tell you.
4 ELLIS ARMISTEAD: They are all
5 evidentiary questions of that sort of nature. I
6 want to know about the DNA, I want to know more
7 about the Whites, I want to know more about the
8 McReynoldses. We want to know questions, I want
9 to ask questions along those lines, and I have a
10 series of them. And I have a long list of them
11 on a piece of paper.
12 TOM HANEY: Could you give me some
13 topic, for example?
14 ELLIS ARMISTEAD: Sure.
15 (TRANSCRIBER'S NOTE: I AM GUESSING
16 AT WHO IS SPEAKING SINCE THERE IS NO VIDEO TO
17 KNOW FOR SURE).
18 ELLIS ARMISTEAD: I would like to
19 see rest of the pictures from the Whites. I
20 would like to see this so-called report from Pam
21 Griffin, who you quoted from during the
22 interrogation during the last three days. I
23 would like see the report which I believe was
24 transference from somebody elsewhere, my client
25 supposedly called somebody a blonde bitch, which
0624
1 I believe is an outrageous lie.
2 I would like to know more
3 specifically about which doors and windows were
4 not locked and which doors and windows were
5 open. We would like to hear the 911 call,
6 because you have asked enough questions about
7 it, we would like to now hear that.
8 We want to know more about all of
9 the fingerprints that have been taken from the
10 house and the results of that. I would like to
11 know --
12 TOM HANEY: Do we want to do this
13 on tape or is this something for the attorneys
14 to work out?
15 ELLIS ARMISTEAD: I was giving one
16 example, then Trip asked me --
17 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
18 TOM HANEY: I don't think we
19 assumed it would be quite as all inclusive. We
20 will discuss it.
21 ELLIS ARMISTEAD: Okay.
22 TOM HANEY: Do you have any other
23 types of questions (INAUDIBLE) do you have
24 questions you would like to know?
25 TOM HANEY: We will end the tape.
0625
1 It's about 3:35.
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