August 29, 2000




      2140 The Equitable Building

 7 100 Peachtree Street

            Atlanta, Georgia




     Alexander J. Gallo, CCR-B-1332


















 2 .

 3 On behalf of John and Patsy Ramsey:

 4 L. LIN WOOD, Esq.

 5 Law Offices of L. Lin Wood

 6 2140 The Equitable Building

 7 100 Peachtree Street

 8 Atlanta, Georgia 30303

 9 .

10 On behalf of The United States:








18 .

19 Also present:

20 Ollie Gray

21 John San Agustin

22 .

23 .

24 .

25 .



 2 August 29, 2000

 3 MR. KANE: Okay. Mr. Ramsey,

 4 good morning.

 5 MR. BECKNER: Just before we get

 6 in, I want to say we appreciate your

 7 willingness to sit down with us and answer

 8 questions. We appreciate the opportunity.

 9 THE WITNESS: Likewise.

10 MR. BECKNER: I want to make

11 sure, do you know who everybody is here?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes. We met. We

13 met everybody yesterday.



16 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay, Mr. Ramsey,

17 we've spoken before for quite a period of

18 time. When I first spoke with you earlier,

19 I explained to you that, if ever there were

20 going to be an intruder on trial, the

21 defense is going to be that you did it. Do

22 you remember that?

23 A. I remember that, but I am not

24 here to prove my innocence. I am here to

25 find the killer of my daughter.


 1 MR. WOOD: Without getting into a

 2 back and forth, I don't want to, but I think

 3 you raised it and it was raised yesterday.

 4 I just think you all can sell that somewhere

 5 else about the idea that if an intruder is

 6 put on trial you will need to have answers

 7 from the Ramseys because, if you find the

 8 person that killed their daughter, the

 9 intruder, and you put that person on trial,

10 before that trial date occurs, you will have

11 every opportunity to talk with John and Patsy

12 to make sure that they can assist you in the

13 prosecution of the criminal, including

14 assisting you in rebutting any defense.

15 MR. KANE: I thought that is what

16 we are here for today.

17 MR. WOOD: Well, you haven't

18 gotten the intruder yet. All I am saying

19 is, if you will get the guy, we will always

20 be available to help you with that.

21 MR. KANE: Okay.

22 Q. (By Mr. Kane) How active have

23 you been involved in the investigation in the

24 last two years since we last met? How

25 actively have you taken part in it?


 1 A. Well, that's a relative term. I

 2 don't know how to answer that question. I

 3 am aware somewhat of what is going on.

 4 Bryan Morgan shepherded the effort for a good

 5 while after the grand jury and specifically

 6 told me he didn't want to tell me a lot

 7 because we were talking to the media and I

 8 had a tendency to perhaps say things I

 9 shouldn't.

10 Q. What kinds of things were you

11 concerned of saying?

12 A. He was concerned about keeping the

13 efforts of the investigation as confidential

14 as possible.

15 Q. Why is that?

16 A. I don't know. You have to ask

17 him.

18 Q. In your mind --

19 A. In my mind, it compromises the

20 effort.

21 Q. In your mind it compromises the

22 effort or in his mind?

23 A. Yes, in my mind.

24 Q. It compromises the effort to

25 disclose things?


 1 A. To find the killer, which is what

 2 we were trying to do.

 3 Q. That wasn't my question, how does

 4 it compromise the effort to not disclose

 5 things you are uncovering?

 6 MR. WOOD: Disclose them publicly?

 7 MR. KANE: Yes, yes.

 8 THE WITNESS: We've always felt

 9 that way.

10 MR. WOOD: Don't you all feel

11 that way, with all due respect?

12 Q. (By Mr. Kane) But you said that

13 Bryan had to tell you that he wasn't going

14 to disclose information to you because you

15 would take it public?

16 A. He thought that that risk was

17 there because we were in conversation with

18 the media. We were in the process of

19 writing a book.

20 Q. The first time that you had,

21 between June of 1998 and the time you wrote

22 your book, had you given any media

23 interviews?

24 A. I think we gave one in Nashville.

25 That's all I can remember, but I don't


 1 recall the timing.

 2 Q. So you got a limited briefing on

 3 what the progress of the investigation was?

 4 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

 5 Q. What were the things that were

 6 disclosed you?

 7 A. I think anything substantive has

 8 been turned over to you, first of all, or to

 9 the Boulder Police Department.

10 Q. No, I understand that, but what

11 was disclosed to you?

12 MR. WOOD: Wait. Give him --

13 MR. KANE: That wasn't my

14 question.

15 MR. WOOD: Doesn't matter. Let

16 him finish saying what he was going to say.

17 He has the right to answer. If you don't

18 think it's responsive, then just deal with

19 it, but I -- John, go ahead and finish.

20 Don't interrupt.

21 THE WITNESS: I forgot your

22 question now.

23 Q. (By Mr. Kane) The question was,

24 what was disclosed to you?

25 MR. WOOD: And you started to


 1 say, John --

 2 THE WITNESS: That I, first of

 3 all, I believe that whatever has been

 4 disclosed to me I am highly confident has

 5 been given to the Boulder Police Department

 6 as information.

 7 We have, I know, pursued a good

 8 number of leads. I don't know that any of

 9 them are the killer. I don't know that one

10 of them is not the killer. They are

11 interesting leads, the ones I am aware of.

12 They need to be pursued. We are pursuing

13 them to the best of our ability as a private

14 citizen.

15 One of the reasons we are here

16 today is because we realize that there are

17 powers that the state has that we cannot, as

18 private citizens, exercise, and that's going

19 to be necessary to ultimately find the

20 killer.

21 Q. (By Mr. Levin) If I can

22 interrupt. Mr. Ramsey, what I would like

23 you to do, I mean, as an individual, I am

24 sure, who has thought about this all day,

25 every day, is just lay out for us what you


 1 see as the significant lead so that we can

 2 make sure that we have followed these things

 3 up.

 4 A. Well, the -- and this is the file

 5 I've kept of leads that come in on the

 6 internet. And we have a tip line, we get

 7 lots of letters, most of which are not of

 8 any interest or value, but these are ones

 9 that I kept. I sent these on to Ollie, and

10 I think probably he has sent them on to you.

11 These aren't necessarily inclusive.

12 This is just from a psychologist,

13 who had, I think, a good perspective on the

14 killer.

15 This is the Dorothy Allison stuff

16 which I believe you guys are familiar with.

17 Chris Wolf is still very much of

18 interest to me. I don't know that he is

19 involved. I don't know he's not. But --

20 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Hang on. I

21 suppose what I'm -- I don't mean to cut you

22 off, Mr. Ramsey, obviously. But what I am

23 interested in, I mean, we had a list of

24 names that you provided early on, and I was

25 interested if there are recent people. I


 1 mean, obviously we've looked at Chris Wolf

 2 and we looked at Fleet and we've looked at

 3 Priscilla and we've looked at Merrick, and

 4 those people, and I'm looking for --

 5 MR. WOOD: Have they been

 6 cleared, Bruce? Have they been cleared?

 7 MR. LEVIN: I can't comment on the

 8 status of the investigation.

 9 MR. WOOD: Has he been cleared

10 from your list. Are we wasting our time?

11 Tell us so we won't waste Ollie's resources.

12 They can go elsewhere.

13 Well, let me go get the 50-page

14 document which the Ramseys gave to you all

15 and you ask him what is significant.

16 MR. LEVIN: Let me get post-98.

17 MR. WOOD: But you interrupted

18 him. Post '98, you gave us 51 pages almost

19 50 pages. Let's go through that because you

20 certainly thought that was significant.

21 Let's get that. Let me get that.

22 MR. LEVIN: Maybe my question

23 wasn't clear and maybe this will save you

24 the trouble.

25 MR. WOOD: Okay.


 1 MR. LEVIN: What I'm interested

 2 in is --

 3 MR. WOOD: You will not tell us

 4 if the other people are cleared?

 5 MR. LEVIN: No.

 6 MR. WOOD: Thank you for the

 7 cooperation.

 8 MR. LEVIN: I am interested in

 9 what, I'm interested in what Mr. Ramsey felt

10 was significant, if there were people post

11 '98 that jumped out.

12 MR. WOOD: That 50 page document

13 was felt to be significant.

14 MR. LEVIN: To a man that it's

15 at the heart of who murdered his child.

16 THE WITNESS: Well, I can tell

17 you that I think you know there was this

18 whole issue of some strange activity in the

19 Cherry Knolls, and I've often thought, you

20 know, we lived there, it was a small town,

21 we were higher profile, you know, perhaps we

22 went to the wrong place.

23 I spent a little time this summer

24 talking to some of the people that I know

25 our investigators talked to. Some of the


 1 information that I heard secondhand wasn't as

 2 strong as I thought it was in terms of being

 3 interesting.

 4 We had the incident of someone

 5 sleeping in JonBenet's bed while we were

 6 gone. We had the incident of somebody

 7 running down the hill saying they were going

 8 to get even with me and harm my daughter.

 9 I don't know if there is anything there or

10 not, but I think it's foolish not to look at

11 that.

12 MR. KANE: Can I ask --

13 MR. WOOD: Wait, let him finish

14 answering the question.

15 MR. KANE: He did.

16 THE WITNESS: I am not finished.

17 MR. WOOD: I have a 50 page

18 document we're going to go through,

19 gentlemen. You are not going to cut him off

20 and say he doesn't have information that he

21 thought was significant.

22 MR. KANE: I just want to ask

23 one follow-up --

24 MR. WOOD: Follow up after his

25 answer. We are going to talk about the


 1 September of '97 incident. We're going to

 2 talk about all of this. You want him to

 3 give you this information. And I hope you

 4 do want it. That's why I would like him to

 5 have that 50 page document in front of him

 6 when he talks about this. Would you like to

 7 have it, John?

 8 THE WITNESS: I have not seen it,

 9 so I would. Here's a lead on a guy named

10 Pete Flynn who was part of a motorcycle gang

11 in Casper, Wyoming called the Saints Bike and

12 Trail Club, SBTC, possible connections to

13 Linda Hawk, worked at the Tomahawk Lounge in

14 Casper, in the '70s. It was where the

15 Saints hung out. I don't know. You know,

16 I have, I have stretched my imagination to

17 the limit trying to figure out what SBTC is.

18 This lady continues to claim that

19 Larry Petrie is the killer. She goes on and

20 on. I don't think that is terribly

21 significant, but what I look for in these

22 things is, is there something that they know

23 that really ties it together or is there

24 something they know that really isn't public,

25 which is kind of difficult because so much


 1 has been public.

 2 This is a -- these Patricia

 3 letters are incredibly bizarre. When I read

 4 those things, this wasn't just an internet

 5 quack, in my opinion. This was somebody who

 6 was watching us, who knew a lot about us,

 7 who would talk about the killer being

 8 actually a pretty nice guy.

 9 You know, we tried desperately to

10 track this back. He's a very clever fellow.

11 He used several servers in his Internet

12 transmissions. We couldn't, couldn't track

13 it back. But I still am very interested in

14 that.

15 I have an original letter that I

16 am convinced the same guy sent me that was

17 written in a different -- supposedly it is a

18 different author, but it's the same. So I

19 mean, it could be the killer. I don't know.

20 But it's a lead.

21 Here is a, this is a family

22 that -- oh, this is just some Dorothy

23 Allison information. This is about a killer

24 of a six-year-old child.

25 One of my theories is, frankly,


 1 that the murder of a child is such a

 2 horrible thing and so subhuman that there are

 3 not many people around that do it. Here is

 4 a fellow that murdered a six-year-old child,

 5 or the name of a fellow. My contention is

 6 that --

 7 MR. KANE: Dorothy Allison, can I

 8 ask, is that a psychic?

 9 THE WITNESS: No, no, this was

10 from --

11 MR. WOOD: He is talking about

12 someone else now.

13 MR. KANE: No, but before you

14 said --

15 MR. WOOD: You are going to let

16 him finish what he's saying.

17 MR. KANE: Oh, come on. Lin,

18 I'm just asking who is Dorothy Allison for

19 the record.

20 MR. WOOD: Let him finish. Make

21 a note and --

22 THE WITNESS: Dorothy Allison was

23 on a television program. I believe she is a

24 psychic. I did not see it. I've never

25 have seen her. These are letters from


 1 people who have sent information based on

 2 what they heard on the television program.

 3 MR. KANE: I just wanted to --

 4 MR. WOOD: It is going to be a

 5 better procedure to let my client finish.

 6 You are going to let my client answer his

 7 question or you're going to leave. You're

 8 not here to interrupt. Show some courtesy

 9 and I will show it to you.

10 THE WITNESS: Dennis Kelly. This

11 is actually very interesting.

12 MR. KANE: If you want to play

13 that game, I will win.

14 MR. WOOD: Well, did you

15 answer -- hold on, John.

16 What did you say, sir?

17 MR. KANE: I said, if you want

18 to play that game, let's take a break.

19 MR. WOOD: Let's take a break.

20 I don't know what that means. We'll

21 consider what that means. I'm going to play

22 that game, you're going to win? I don't

23 know.

24 MR. KANE: You are playing games.

25 MR. WOOD: I am not playing a


 1 game, Mr. Kane.

 2 MR. KANE: He mentioned Dorothy

 3 Allison, and I said who is Dorothy Allison.

 4 MR. WOOD: Mr. Kane, I am not

 5 going to waste my breath talking to you like

 6 I did yesterday. I am going to take a

 7 break now, but when you make comments about

 8 me playing a game and you are going to win

 9 when I asked you not to interrupt my client,

10 number one, sir, that was rude. I asked you

11 not to do it. I told you if you were

12 going to be discourteous to my client, you

13 would have to leave.

14 MR. KANE: I was not

15 discourteous.

16 MR. WOOD: If it is a game to

17 you, as you practice law, it is not a game

18 for me.

19 MR. KANE: Are we going to take

20 a break here?

21 MR. WOOD: We will get through

22 this, Chief, no matter what he tries to do,

23 we will get through it. I promise you.

24 MR. KANE: This is a stall.

25 MR. WOOD: And I will get that


 1 50 page document too.

 2 (WHEREUPON, a brief recess was

 3 taken.)


 5 THE WITNESS: Well, I started to

 6 talk about Dennis Kelly, which interested me

 7 because this is a note from a guy in Boulder

 8 who lived near Kelly who apparently painted

 9 our basement in either '95 or 1996. He's a

10 fairly dysfunctional fellow. I don't know if

11 you know his name or not.

12 Q. (By Chief Beckner) When you say

13 dysfunctional, what do you mean?

14 A. Well, I can give you copies of

15 these things, but he was wearing an ankle

16 monitor when he was painting our basement,

17 apparently. I don't know how this was

18 known, but obviously he was supposed to be

19 on a restricted duty.

20 MR. TRUJILLO: Mr. Ramsey, are

21 you speaking of Mr. Kelly as the person who

22 painted your basement?

23 THE WITNESS: Yes, Dennis Kelly.

24 Do you know that name or --

25 MR. TRUJILLO: I would have to go


 1 back and look.

 2 THE WITNESS: But anyway, this is

 3 one of those that had a connection, in our

 4 house.

 5 MR. BECKNER: And that is the

 6 type of thing that is particularly of

 7 interest to us are people who have had

 8 connections, because obviously there are a

 9 lot of people that are going to write on the

10 internet and send letters and things.

11 THE WITNESS: Right. Yeah. I

12 mentioned a wealthy friend I visited, da-dah,

13 da-dah, da-dah, and then Kelly said, yeah, I

14 know some rich people. Who? The Ramseys.

15 He seemed to have some sort of grudge

16 against you which he wouldn't explain.

17 But -- and this was March 2000. So I can

18 give you a copy of that.

19 In terms of the stuff that I have

20 been keeping track of, that's probably the

21 most interesting.

22 This is Randy Simons. I don't

23 know if there is anything there.

24 This is a woman who believes that

25 her brother might have done it. And I


 1 think -- I can give you this too, but I

 2 think you guys know about it.

 3 MR. KANE: Who is that?

 4 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't know.

 5 She didn't give me a name.

 6 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Her, the name of

 7 the brother?

 8 A. She doesn't, but she has an

 9 e-mail address. Well, this actually came from

10 Jamison, who I am sure you guys are

11 painfully aware of. But I think she had

12 been communicating with this woman, or this

13 person who is a woman.

14 We had another lady write us that

15 her ex-husband did it, but in talking to

16 her, we decided she was really a woman

17 scorned.

18 MR. WOOD: We had everybody back

19 from John Kennedy calling.

20 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it got really

21 bizarre in the end. That's the kind of

22 thing I've been looking for, and that's what

23 I've learned, yet one of those for every

24 hundred that really are not particularly

25 interesting.


 1 Michael Helgoth, I know we gave

 2 you some boots, Hi-Tec boots, that from my

 3 perspective looked like a perfect match to

 4 the footprint.

 5 We also know he has a stun gun

 6 that was an AirTaser. We know he committed

 7 suicide the day after Alex Hunter's speech

 8 about we know who you are, we are going to

 9 get you.

10 There is the another fellow, I

11 don't know his name, but I know Ollie has

12 been working on it that had a shrine of

13 JonBenet prior to '96.

14 MR. TRUJILLO: Mr. Ramsey, let me

15 jump back to Mr. Helgoth for a moment. You

16 said he had boots that you have seen. Have

17 you seen the boots?

18 THE WITNESS: I haven't seen the

19 boots. I saw a picture that Ollie had taken

20 earlier of the footprint compared to the

21 image of the bootprint.

22 Q. (By Mr. Trujillo) That is my

23 question, have you seen the actual crime

24 scene photograph of the boot print there?

25 A. No, no.


 1 Q. What image have you seen?

 2 MR. WOOD: That is a copy of it.

 3 THE WITNESS: I don't know what

 4 image I have seen, but it was on the

 5 internet.

 6 MR. TRUJILLO: Okay. I don't

 7 know if this is the boot image of -- oh,

 8 here it is, yes.

 9 MR. WOOD: This is a copy.

10 MR. TRUJILLO: This is an image

11 off of the internet?

12 THE WITNESS: And yes, I don't

13 know --

14 MS. HARMER: And the internet,

15 the person who put it on the internet is

16 purporting it to be the actual footprint that

17 was found in the cellar?

18 THE WITNESS: Not necessarily.

19 His parents, Helgoth's parents finally turned

20 over his boots, which we turned over to you.

21 I don't know Helgoth. I don't know that

22 name. Whether or not there is any

23 significance there, I don't know.

24 MS. HARMER: I guess I am not

25 clear about where you got this image.


 1 THE WITNESS: The --

 2 MR. WOOD: Ollie would be able to

 3 tell us that.

 4 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't know.

 5 MR. WOOD: The image of the print

 6 in the wine cellar.

 7 MR. GRAY: I did that comparison

 8 with glue.

 9 THE WITNESS: But here is a guy

10 that ought to be looked at. I don't know

11 anything else about it, but he certainly

12 meets some of the factors that we find

13 interesting.

14 I still believe the September '97

15 incident is significant. I don't know what

16 you found on that, but that sent chills down

17 my spine when I read about that, heard about

18 that a month or two ago.

19 This person that has a shrine, I

20 think, had a cane, one of those candycanes

21 from my front yard in his home. I don't

22 know how he could have come by that after

23 the fact. It was secured December 25th.

24 Those are probably, in my mind,

25 the most interesting, substantial leads that


 1 I had seen.

 2 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, you

 3 mention --

 4 MR. WOOD: Before we go there,

 5 Bruce, let me say to you, I turned over to

 6 Ollie two expandables of stuff that I have

 7 gotten for him to look at, including, you

 8 may know this, Chief, but I got some really

 9 long and detailed analysis of Fleet White's

10 letters compared to the ransom notes from a

11 lawyer in New York. Are you familiar with

12 it? You may not have gotten it yet.

13 MR. BECKNER: I don't believe so.

14 MR. WOOD: He will go through it

15 and get it all to you. I am trying to

16 keep up with it to go to Ollie. It is two

17 expandables of different tips on leads.

18 MR. BECKNER: What type of

19 analysis is it?

20 MR. WOOD: It's a linguistic

21 analysis of the public letters that Fleet

22 White and Priscilla White have written about

23 the case, and they have taken that and done

24 an analysis of the ransom note. So I am

25 not making any suggestions except to describe


 1 it.

 2 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Mr. Ramsey, this

 3 Dennis Kelly that you brought up, the

 4 painter, have your investigators contacted him

 5 or done any follow-up that you are aware of?

 6 A. I don't know of.

 7 MR. GRAY: I beg your pardon?

 8 MR. WOOD: Dennis Kelly, any

 9 follow-up on Kelly yet?

10 MR. GRAY: I don't know a Kelly.

11 MR. WOOD: The painter.

12 MR. GRAY: Uh-uh (negative).

13 MR. WOOD: Give that to Ollie.

14 MR. GRAY: There are a couple of

15 others we followed up on, but not him.

16 MR. LEVIN: Mr. Ramsey, you

17 mentioned Dorothy Allison provided you with a

18 name? I missed it.

19 THE WITNESS: A woman who had

20 seen her on television provided us with a

21 name of a -- I said I can give you what

22 she sent, but I don't --

23 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Was that on the

24 list that you gave us, the name?

25 A. No, no.


 1 Q. If I can change gears for just a

 2 second, one of the things that you found

 3 significant, and, obviously since you found

 4 it significant, it was of great interest to

 5 us, was the baseball bat, the second baseball

 6 bat, aluminum bat.

 7 And we have, through confidential

 8 grand jury investigations, found that that

 9 bat, that second bat was Burke's. Was there

10 anything else that you thought about,

11 assuming that is true?

12 A. Well, I never have seen the bat,

13 so -- and I think the best person to say

14 whether it was Burke's or not is to ask

15 Burke.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. That's it from your

19 perspective --

20 A. No, there was nothing else I know

21 about the bat.

22 Q. Okay. Thank you. We received

23 from your lawyers in January of '97 two

24 black shirts which we received really

25 without --


 1 MR. BECKNER: January of '98.

 2 MR. LEVIN: January of '98. I

 3 am sorry.

 4 Q. (By Mr. Levin) January of 1998.

 5 It was in response to Boulder Police

 6 Department's request for the shirt that you

 7 are wearing in the photographs from Christmas

 8 at the White's house. And they were given

 9 to us without explanation of how they got

10 into their possession. I thought you could

11 explain that for us.

12 A. Well, I assume they were the

13 shirts that, when we were asked to provide

14 the clothing we had on that night before, we

15 couldn't remember. We asked for a picture

16 that was taken that night so we could

17 remember. As far as I know, those are the

18 only shirts that we sent.

19 Q. And that was in response to our

20 request --

21 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

22 Q. -- for the clothing that you were

23 wearing?

24 A. I suspect it was, yes.

25 Q. What I would like you, if you


 1 recall, did you personally retrieve it, send

 2 it off to your lawyers, and, if so, where

 3 did you retrieve it from?

 4 A. Gosh, I don't know. It would be

 5 in December of '98, we were living in

 6 Atlanta.

 7 MR. TRUJILLO: Actually December

 8 of '97.

 9 MR. WOOD: I think the request

10 for the clothing was made in December of

11 '97, a year after the murder.

12 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, December

13 of '97, yeah, yeah.

14 MR. WOOD: And you turned it over

15 in January of '98.

16 MR. LEVIN: I believe that is

17 correct, sir.

18 THE WITNESS: We still lived in

19 Atlanta. So it was either in a box or in

20 my closet, I suppose.

21 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Do you recall,

22 when, on September the 28th, when your

23 sister-in-law Pam went over to retrieve some

24 items for the family, was that among the

25 items that she took out of the house?


 1 A. December?

 2 Q. 28th, 1996. That Saturday

 3 before -- that Saturday after the murder.

 4 A. I don't know.

 5 Q. So just so I am clear, your best

 6 recollection is that that was an item that

 7 was in the house that was packed up by the

 8 movers that was sent off?

 9 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

10 Q. You provided us with two shirts.

11 One of them had a collar, it's a wool shirt

12 made in Israel. The other one did not have

13 a collar. Do you have a belief as to which

14 one was the actual shirt that you were

15 wearing on Christmas '96?

16 A. I don't remember, I guess. And

17 if I -- well, I think the issue, if I

18 recall was I couldn't remember which one, so

19 I think we sent you both. But I mean, I'd

20 have to look at pictures, I guess, to

21 compare. I don't remember that far back.

22 Q. Mr. Ramsey, I take it, and

23 correct me if I am wrong, please, that the

24 fact that you sent two shirts as opposed to

25 one indicated you were not certain which of


 1 the two you were wearing?

 2 A. Well, I think that's what we did,

 3 but I don't, I mean, I don't remember

 4 exactly the logic. I know that we were

 5 asked about shoes, and the picture didn't

 6 even show shoes, so I couldn't remember what

 7 shoes we had on. So was it to send all my

 8 shoes or one hundred percent sure.

 9 Q. Those items of evidence, did you

10 continue, after the clothing was moved down

11 to Atlanta, after you moved to Atlanta, did

12 you continue to wear them? Were they

13 laundered? Were they -- one of them was

14 wool. I assume that would be dry cleaned.

15 Do you have any recollection in that regard?

16 A. No, I don't.

17 Q. We have been provided, and again,

18 one of the sources of this information is

19 confidential grand jury material I can tell

20 you in the question, but we have been

21 provided information from two sources that

22 your son Burke, prior to the murder of your

23 daughter, owned and wore Hi-Tec boots that

24 had a compass on them, which makes them

25 distinctive.


 1 Do you recall -- if you don't

 2 recall that they actually were Hi-Tec, do you

 3 remember Burke having boots that had a

 4 compass on the laces?

 5 A. Vaguely. I don't know if they

 6 were boots or tennis shoes. My memory is

 7 they were tennis shoes, but that is very

 8 vague. He had boots that had lights on them

 9 and all sorts of different things.

10 Q. But you do have some recollection

11 that he had some type of footwear that had

12 compasses attached to them?

13 A. I don't, I don't specifically

14 remember them, but my impression is that he

15 did, in my mind, yeah. But my impression

16 was that they were tennis shoes.

17 Q. Sneakers?

18 A. Sneakers. Yeah. Ask Burke if he

19 remembers it.

20 I said, ask Burke, perhaps he --

21 well, we could certainly ask Burke.

22 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Mr. Ramsey, page

23 266 and 267 of your book, you quote a letter

24 you sent to Alex Hunter.

25 A. Okay.


 1 Q. The last full paragraph of that,

 2 finally I am willing, it's on 267, I am

 3 willing and able to put up a substantial

 4 reward, $1 million, through the help of

 5 friends if this would help drive the

 6 investigation.

 7 Now, did you ever put up $1

 8 million reward?

 9 A. No. I was advised that it

10 wouldn't make any difference.

11 Q. Who was it that advised you of

12 that?

13 A. My attorneys. That $100,000 was

14 a significant amount of money. And I didn't

15 have a million dollars at that point. I

16 would have had to gone to friends for help.

17 And if it wasn't significant, I wasn't going

18 to approach my friends for that kind of

19 help.

20 Q. Did you talk to anybody else

21 about whether the amount of money offered

22 would have any bearing?

23 A. Well, I never got a response from

24 Alex on that, but I don't remember that I

25 did, no.


 1 Q. Was there something about, in your

 2 attorney's experience, that they cited --

 3 MR. WOOD: I don't want to go

 4 into anything further on that, about

 5 attorneys. The things they cited to him,

 6 would go into the privilege.

 7 MR. KANE: Fine. No problem.

 8 Q. (By Mr. Kane) What did you

 9 think? What did your instinct tell you

10 about a million versus 100,000?

11 A. Well, in the beginning, I thought

12 that that would drive information. At the

13 beginning we couldn't get the police to even

14 acknowledge or participate in announcing a

15 reward. It was very frustrating.

16 And so we, you know --

17 Q. Do you have a reward outstanding

18 right now?

19 A. Yes. As far as I am concerned,

20 we do.

21 Q. I am sorry?

22 A. As far as I'm concerned, we do,

23 yeah.

24 Q. Is it publicized anywhere?

25 A. It is publicized on our internet


 1 site, I believe.

 2 Q. Who maintains that?

 3 A. Ollie and I guess -- you can do

 4 that yourself and have an internet service.

 5 Q. You understand there is a reward

 6 that is listed on your internet site?

 7 A. (Witness nodded head

 8 affirmatively).

 9 Q. Is that that ramseyfamily.com?

10 A. It was originally. We changed

11 the number. I guess that is still how you

12 access it. I think you access it both ways,

13 don't you? Ramseyfamily.com, and we also set

14 up a JonBenetinfo@AOL.com.

15 Q. JonBenetinfo --

16 A. -- @AOL.com. That's not a

17 website.

18 Q. That is an e-mail?

19 A. Right.

20 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, I know

21 that the -- it is my belief, I should say,

22 that the fact that certain people have

23 represented to you that there are stun gun

24 injuries to your daughter is a significant

25 fact.


 1 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

 2 Q. And I am curious, if you don't

 3 mind, could you just tell us who has

 4 provided you information in that regard that

 5 has caused you to hold the belief that she

 6 has suffered a stun gun injury?

 7 MR. WOOD: That would be

 8 information provided to him subsequent to

 9 June of 1998?

10 MR. LEVIN: Yes.

11 MR. WOOD: Do you understand the

12 question, John? I know what you said in

13 June of 1998, but he is talking about since

14 the time of your last interviews. If you've

15 got anything else.

16 Let me ask him a question.

17 (Mr. Ramsey and his counsel

18 confer.)

19 THE WITNESS: We had, under

20 the -- kind of the direction of Pat Burke a

21 group of experts assembled to look at the

22 medical, from the scientific and medical

23 aspects of this, and that was one of the

24 things, I believe, that they looked at.

25 Q. (By Mr. Levin) That would be


 1 Dr. Sperry?

 2 A. Well, that would be one of the

 3 names. There were two to three. I don't

 4 remember the other names because I never met

 5 them, but these are the people we offered to

 6 have meet with you in January.

 7 Q. Right, right. Were you provided

 8 information from those folks that told you

 9 that one of the things that they examined

10 were photographs of the reported stun gun

11 injuries, ask Mr. Sperry and his colleagues

12 if he had --

13 A. I don't, I don't remember what

14 they said, I guess. I never talked to him

15 directly. You know --

16 MR. WOOD: Bruce, as indicated

17 by your question, you all have now an

18 interest in the information from those

19 individuals and would like to reconsider the

20 request to meet with them which you earlier

21 rejected, again, I think I am pretty sure

22 that I can speak with Pat Burke and that

23 that can be done. As indicated by your

24 question, you are obviously interested in

25 what those people have to say, and we will


 1 give them to you.

 2 THE WITNESS: My position on stun

 3 guns is that the people that have told me

 4 that this was likely the case seemed pretty

 5 qualified.

 6 MR. LEVIN: But that, I am sorry,

 7 Michael.

 8 Q. (By Mr. Levin) But that, just a

 9 follow up so I am clear, that information is

10 not from this group that was put together

11 after '98. That is some other individuals

12 that precede your June '98 interviews?

13 A. Well, the first time the stun gun

14 came up was in a meeting with Lou Schmidt

15 and Tom was there. I don't remember.

16 MR. WICKMAN: Pete Hoster?

17 MR. LEVIN: Ainesworth?

18 THE WITNESS: And he asked me to

19 keep it very confidential but did we have,

20 did we know anybody that owned a stun gun.

21 That is the first I heard about it. But

22 that was probably in '97.

23 MR. WICKMAN: Yeah.

24 Q. (By Mr. Levin) And since your

25 interviews in '98, there has been a passage


 1 of a significant period of time, have you

 2 come up with names of people you know that

 3 have, that you were associated with, which

 4 you know owned stun guns that were unfamiliar

 5 with --

 6 A. Not the -- I mean, my answer to

 7 that back then was I don't know of anybody

 8 that I know that owns a stun gun, and I

 9 still don't. I mean, we have come up with

10 guys like Helgoth who we know owned the

11 brand that was a suspect, but --

12 MR. KANE: Let me follow up on

13 that.

14 Q. (By Mr. Kane) have you talked to

15 Lou Schmidt about the stun gun after he

16 resigned from the case?

17 MR. WOOD: After he resigned from

18 the case would have been?

19 MR. KANE: Would have been

20 September of 1998.

21 MR. LEVIN: '99?

22 MR. WOOD: '98.

23 MR. KANE: '98.

24 MR. LEVIN: '98.

25 THE WITNESS: Only, I think, that


 1 he still believes it's very significant.

 2 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Now, you said that

 3 you hadn't talked to any of the experts that

 4 had looked at it. What information did you

 5 get, if any, from these people?

 6 A. I think the most significant piece

 7 of information, that they felt that the blow

 8 to the head was after she had died or near

 9 death.

10 Q. I am now talking about the stun

11 gun.

12 A. Oh, about the stun gun?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. I don't remember that they told

15 me anything about the stun gun that I didn't

16 already know, I mean, that I was aware of.

17 Q. What are you aware of, I guess,

18 is the question, about the stun gun?

19 A. Well, I was aware that it was

20 highly likely that one was used, which is a

21 very distressing fact. I learned, and I

22 think I heard this in the media, it might

23 have been Carol McCane, I don't remember,

24 said something about there were burn marks on

25 the tape. I don't know if that is true or


 1 not.

 2 Q. But you don't know of any experts

 3 that say that?

 4 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.

 5 MR. WOOD: Because of what's

 6 obviously of interest on your all's part, I

 7 take it you would all be receptive with

 8 meeting with them now? Are you interested

 9 in hearing what they want to say? I assume

10 you would want us to arrange that, Bruce?

11 MR. LEVIN: I think that is

12 something we can talk about. There are

13 issues are surrounding those people that

14 isn't germane to our talking to Mr. Ramsey

15 at this time that maybe you and I can talk

16 about in the future.

17 Q. (By Mr. Kane) You started to say

18 about the most significant thing was the blow

19 to the head preceded the strangulation. Was

20 that, have you talked to any particular

21 expert about that?

22 A. I haven't talked directly to any

23 particular expert about that. That was the

24 analysis I got back through Pat Burke, I

25 believe.


 1 A. And do you know who --

 2 MR. WOOD: Just so it is clear,

 3 I think you said preceded strangulation. I

 4 think you misspoke.

 5 MR. KANE: If the blow, no I

 6 think that's what you said. You said, I am

 7 sorry.

 8 MR. WOOD: Hold on. Let's make

 9 sure. He said precisely, the most

10 significant piece of information was that

11 they felt was the blow to the death was

12 after the death, and your question, I think

13 inadvertently you said preceded the

14 strangulation, which is not what he said.

15 MR. KANE: You are right. That's

16 not what I meant. Okay.

17 Q. (By Mr. Kane) But you got this

18 information through Pat Burke. Have you ever

19 sought to talk to the people that he got the

20 information from?

21 A. No, because I wanted to stay

22 independent of them. The objective was, when

23 we presented these people up in January, was

24 to present highly qualified experts that

25 would help provide information to find the


 1 killer.

 2 Q. But there are people in addition

 3 to Kris Sperry?

 4 A. Yes. I don't remember their

 5 names, but it seems to me there were

 6 several.

 7 Q. But you could get access to who

 8 they were and provide us with those?

 9 A. As far as I know, yes.

10 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, I know

11 that you were asked questions about a black

12 metal flashlight that was found in the house.

13 We have developed, since '98, some

14 information about that flashlight I would

15 like to ask you just a little bit about.

16 Is that the flashlight that you

17 habitually used, say for example, if your

18 power went out and you had candles lit in

19 your house? Do you know?

20 A. Not necessarily. And I don't

21 know that that was my flashlight. The

22 picture I saw, and I think I commented at

23 the time, was that that one was very dirty.

24 My flashlight, while it looked to be the

25 same size, mine was clean. And my son gave


 1 it to me for a present. So that was the

 2 issue that I saw. It kind of looks like

 3 mine, but it's certainly filthy.

 4 Q. May not be?

 5 A. Yeah.

 6 Q. Let's talk about, I want to ask

 7 this so it is clear for you. The flashlight

 8 your son gave you, whether the light in the

 9 picture is that or not, but that flashlight,

10 the one you received as a gift from your

11 son, was that the light that, if you had

12 power failures, routinely, that is the first

13 thing you would grab?

14 A. No, not necessarily.

15 Q. Not necessarily?

16 A. Because we kept it -- it was a

17 big flashlight. We kept it, I believe,

18 normally in the drawer down that little sink

19 area in the back hall. I don't even

20 remember if I had a flashlight by my bedside

21 or not.

22 Q. (By Mr. Kane) The documentary that

23 was done by Michael Tracy in 1998 sometime,

24 did you have any say in any aspect of that

25 documentary?


 1 A. No.

 2 Q. I think previously you said the

 3 one thing you did was you insisted that it

 4 wouldn't be shown before --

 5 A. Well, there was an issue about,

 6 if it was, if the grand jury was in session

 7 or convened or something that we had the

 8 right to tell them not to put it on. That

 9 was the only thing, I believe, that we --

10 Q. Did you have any discussions with

11 anybody about when it was aired just a

12 couple of weeks before the grand jury

13 started?

14 A. Did I have discussions? No, not

15 that I remember.

16 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, one of

17 the things that you were asked about during

18 your interview in 1998 I would like to

19 follow up on is some new information, are

20 some questions about a Santa Bear that was

21 found on your daughter's bed. Do you

22 remember that?

23 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

24 Q. Do you remember the bear?

25 A. (Witness nodded head


 1 affirmatively).

 2 Q. At the time you were interviewed,

 3 you stated to the effect that you did not

 4 recognize it?

 5 A. Correct.

 6 Q. And I am wondering, we have

 7 identified the source, we know how it got to

 8 JonBenet through a pageant on December 14.

 9 MR. WOOD: Well, you say that,

10 but we're not -- we haven't seen the

11 photographs or video.

12 MR. LEVIN: I understand that.

13 Q. (By Mr. Levin) It is our belief.

14 Are you comfortable with that

15 phrasing?

16 MR. WOOD: I would be more

17 comfortable if you are going to question him

18 about something that you give him the right

19 to look at it yourself, but, you know, since

20 you, for whatever reason, choose not to do

21 so, I accept you state that is your belief.

22 Q. (By Mr. Levin) It is my belief,

23 Mr. Ramsey, that she received that as a

24 prize in a pageant on December 14, 1996.

25 And I am wondering if, do you recall being,


 1 first of all, were you at her last pageant

 2 in December? Do you remember?

 3 A. I got there late. I usually

 4 would try to go for the talent portion. And

 5 they were running early. I was late. I

 6 got there after it was over. So I was

 7 there, but not for very long.

 8 Q. And the follow-up question to that

 9 would be, if my belief is correct that you

10 received that bear at that pageant, does that

11 maybe jog your memory as to the origin of

12 it?

13 A. No.

14 MR. WOOD: I don't think you

15 meant to say that he received it.

16 THE WITNESS: We have no idea

17 whether that was significant or not, that

18 bear. I mean, you know, it was, when I was

19 shown those photos, we were looking for

20 anything that looked out of the ordinary.

21 I mean, we had fully expected

22 that, if someone had given it to her, that

23 they would come forward and say, oh, yes, I

24 gave that to JonBenet. That explains that.

25 Q. (By Mr. Levin) And you understand


 1 of course, that anything you found

 2 significant or out of the ordinary became

 3 significant to us, obviously?

 4 A. That's right. Yeah.

 5 MR. WOOD: You did misspeak, just

 6 for the record. You meant to say JonBenet

 7 received it, not that John received it.

 8 MR. LEVIN: That's correct. I

 9 don't think John won a Little Miss Christmas

10 pageant.

11 THE WITNESS: I don't remember

12 that.

13 MR. WOOD: No, and it's

14 unfortunate what you asked him in the

15 question says that he did.

16 MR. LEVIN: Michael?

17 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Mr. Ramsey, at the

18 present time, how much money is in the

19 JonBenet Ramsey Foundation?

20 A. I believe that is public record,

21 but I think there is about $7,000 in there.

22 Q. What is the highest balance that

23 you know of that it has been?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Have you done any fundraisers to


 1 fund it?

 2 A. No. It wasn't our intention to

 3 raise public money. I set up a foundation

 4 for my other daughter, which still exists, by

 5 the way. We were desperate to honor our

 6 daughter in some way, and that was our

 7 attempt to do it, and why we have been

 8 criticized for that, I don't know.

 9 Q. You put out a press release that

10 gave an address for contributions to be made

11 to the foundation.

12 A. I don't remember ever asking for

13 contributions.

14 MR. WOOD: Do you have a copy of

15 the press release?

16 MR. KANE: Yes. As a matter of

17 fact, I do.

18 MR. WOOD: Why don't you let him

19 see it.

20 THE WITNESS: I would like to see

21 it.

22 MR. KANE: I have what the Denver

23 Post has published as coming from your press

24 release.

25 MR. LEVIN: While he gets booted


 1 up on that just so that we don't waste time,

 2 how about if I ask him questions on another

 3 matter? Does that work for you procedurally?

 4 MR. WOOD: Sure.

 5 THE WITNESS: Can I respond to

 6 that though?

 7 MR. WOOD: Go ahead, John.

 8 THE WITNESS: I am offended, and

 9 I have been offended. I have been offended

10 that you investigated that foundation during

11 the grand jury. I have a mind to disband

12 it and treat it just as a private -- we

13 want to honor our daughter, and we have

14 received nothing but grief from you folks,

15 from the media over that attempt, and I am

16 baffled by that.

17 Q. (By Mr. Kane) I'll get it, but

18 I want to follow up on that, you made an

19 application for it to be a 503(C) charitable

20 foundation, haven't you?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. WOOD: I think it actually

23 has been so designated.

24 MR. KANE: Has it been? That

25 was what I was going to ask you.



 2 MR. WOOD: There was a mistake in

 3 the book jacket cover that indicated an

 4 application had been made. An application

 5 for tax exempt status has been submitted, and

 6 I remember someone called it to the attention

 7 of the publisher that, in fact, it had been

 8 granted. I don't sit here and represent

 9 that I have seen it, but I do know that

10 information.

11 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Has any, to your

12 knowledge, any of the money that ever has

13 been in that foundation ever been given to

14 any charitable --

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. -- or social --

17 A. Not to the level we would have

18 hoped. I mean, our original plan was that we

19 were going to sue the hell out of the

20 tabloids and donate it all to the foundation

21 and do some very significant things. That

22 has been a tough process.

23 So we have not been able to do

24 with it what we hoped, but I hope some day

25 we can.


 1 Q. You did get money from the

 2 public, though, that came in?

 3 A. Very, very little. I got -- the

 4 most significant donations I got were from

 5 two friends. One was the president of

 6 Lockheed-Martin, sent $1,000, and my boss

 7 sent $1,000. We probably received a few

 8 very small checks.

 9 Q. (By Mr. Levin) While Mr. Kane is

10 looking for that on his computer, Mr. Ramsey,

11 I am interested, and this is concerning

12 events, obviously, that precede 1998, but it

13 is based on information developed after the

14 grand jury was convened. I am interested,

15 if you would, please tell us what types, if

16 any, work gloves you own, whether you kept

17 them in the house, on the plane, in the car,

18 it doesn't matter, but just identify them by

19 their location.

20 A. I don't remember that I owned any

21 work gloves. I don't normally wear work

22 gloves.

23 Q. So just to clarify, you are

24 saying that your recollection is that you did

25 not or you are just unsure because of the


 1 passage of time?

 2 A. I don't remember. I mean, I

 3 don't normally wear work gloves. I've had

 4 work gloves from time to time, but I

 5 don't -- I can't specifically remember that I

 6 had any then or if I did what they were

 7 like.

 8 I had a pair here that were gray,

 9 and I bought those at Home Depot, and God

10 knows where they are now. So they kind of

11 come and go.

12 Q. So it wasn't your routine habit

13 or practice to keep a pair of work gloves in

14 your cars if you needed to change a tire

15 or --

16 A. (Witness shook head negatively).

17 Q. -- or on your plane if you needed

18 to do something where you would kind of get

19 dirtied up?

20 A. No. I am not qualified to work

21 on my airplane, my former airplane.

22 MR. WOOD: Do you have the PR

23 statement, Mr. Kane?

24 MR. KANE: No. It's still

25 booting up.


 1 MR. WOOD: Okay.

 2 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, during

 3 the evening of December 25th, was there a

 4 time when either, after JonBenet got dressed

 5 to leave for the White's house or while she

 6 was at the White's house or after you came

 7 home from the White's house, she had any

 8 problems going to the bathroom or problems

 9 with her clothes that you may have helped

10 her with?

11 A. I don't remember. I really do

12 not.

13 Q. If I may follow --

14 A. It is possible. I don't know.

15 Q. If I can follow it up just to

16 clarify, when you say you don't remember,

17 does that mean, as you sit here today, your

18 best recollection is no or you don't know

19 yes or no?

20 A. I don't remember. It was three

21 and a half years ago.

22 Q. I understand that. I was just

23 trying to clarify your answer.

24 A. I don't know. I just don't

25 remember.


 1 Q. One way or the other?

 2 A. One way or the other.

 3 MR. LEVIN: Mike, do you have

 4 other questions while your computer is

 5 humming?

 6 MR. KANE: No.

 7 Q. (By Mr. Levin) I've got some

 8 questions, Mr. Ramsey, that deal with fiber

 9 evidence, and this is probably going to be

10 questions that your lawyer is going to advise

11 you not to answer, but I would like to pose

12 them to you.

13 MR. WOOD: Is this what we

14 discussed yesterday with Patsy?

15 MR. LEVIN: Different fibers

16 associated directly with --

17 MR. WOOD: I think the position

18 is, to save some time, if you want to

19 question Mr. Ramsey about test results, that

20 it is absolutely fair that we be allowed to

21 see the result ourselves before we answer

22 questions so that we are not dealing with

23 speculation and hypotheticals that are not

24 supported by the facts as you might represent

25 them.


 1 We couldn't get yesterday what I

 2 discerned to be a consistent response from

 3 any of you all about the test results that

 4 you discussed on the red fiber. That just

 5 tells me that, to try to go into this area

 6 without being privy to the actual result, is

 7 not something I am comfortable with in terms

 8 of fundamental fairness. If you are willing

 9 to disclose to us what you claim the result

10 to be, it makes absolutely no sense to me

11 that you would not share the actual result

12 with us. I do not see how that can in any

13 justified way impede your investigation or

14 prevent you from going forward with your

15 investigation.

16 So we are not comfortable with

17 your characterization of any test results

18 forensically. We will reconsider at the

19 appropriate time if we get there whether we

20 will answer those questions if you will

21 provide us with the actual result itself.

22 So that's our position yesterday. That's our

23 position today. That will be our position

24 tomorrow.

25 But if you will give us the


 1 results, we will look at them and we will

 2 consider whether or not we can answer

 3 questions based on those results.

 4 Fair enough?

 5 MR. LEVIN: I understand. And,

 6 of course, and I believe you feel I am

 7 entitled to at least pose the questions,

 8 understanding your position, so they are part

 9 of the record so this is an accurate --

10 MR. WOOD: Well, you can pose

11 them if you want to make a record, and I

12 think I understand pretty clearly why you

13 want to make that record based on what you

14 said yesterday.

15 I said yesterday I thought it was

16 an injustice for you to make those kinds of

17 representations through your questions or

18 statements.

19 If you are going to make

20 statements that contain some form of innuendo

21 that an article of clothing might possibly be

22 connected to some portion of the crime scene

23 or this man's daughter's body, I think you

24 have an obligation, not only to him but to

25 whoever reads that report and this


 1 transcript, to be candid and give full

 2 disclosure, show the people what the results

 3 are, show the people what you also had in

 4 terms of fiber evidence.

 5 We are told there are hundreds of

 6 fibers, for example, on the duct tape. And

 7 I think you have a fundamental right,

 8 fundamental fairness requires that you

 9 disclose that information and not single out

10 some hypothetical innuendo that unfairly casts

11 perhaps in someone's mind that reads this

12 some finger of blame at John or Patsy

13 Ramsey. I think it is totally inappropriate

14 for you to do so, but if you want to go

15 ahead and make a record for whatever reason,

16 I certainly am not here to stop you. You

17 have the right.

18 MR. LEVIN: Thank you, Mr. Wood.

19 I appreciate the opportunity.

20 MR. WOOD: Thank you.

21 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, it is

22 our belief based on forensic evidence that

23 there are hairs that are associated, that the

24 source is the collared black shirt that you

25 sent us that are found in your daughter's


 1 underpants, and I wondered if you --

 2 A. Bullshit. I don't believe that.

 3 I don't buy it. If you are trying to

 4 disgrace my relationship with my daughter --

 5 Q. Mr. Ramsey, I am not trying to

 6 disgrace --

 7 A. Well, I don't believe it. I

 8 think you are. That's disgusting.

 9 MR. WOOD: I think you --

10 MR. LEVIN: I am not.

11 MR. WOOD: Yes, you are.

12 MR. LEVIN: And the follow-up

13 question would be --

14 MR. WOOD: Posing the question in

15 light of what I said to you yesterday is

16 nothing more than an attempt to make a

17 record that unfairly, unjustly, and in a

18 disgusting fashion points what you might

19 consider to be some finger of blame at this

20 man regarding his daughter, and you ought to

21 be ashamed of yourself for doing it, Bruce.

22 You knew we weren't going to

23 answer the question. Why don't you just

24 give us the report, and we'll put it out

25 there for someone to look at and tell us


 1 what it says and see how fair and accurate

 2 you have been.

 3 I know why you said what you said

 4 yesterday about Patsy and the fibers and John

 5 and the fibers. And you know why you did

 6 it, Bruce. Because you want this somehow to

 7 get out and then people will read that and

 8 be prejudiced even further against this

 9 family.

10 I just don't know why you want to

11 do it, but I can't stop you.

12 MR. LEVIN: Mr. Wood, if you

13 would like to, I would challenge you to find

14 any article anywhere that I have been quoted

15 as giving an opinion or any statement to the

16 press concerning this case.

17 MR. WOOD: You don't have to be

18 quoted. You don't have to be quoted.

19 MR. LEVIN: Or any piece of

20 evidence that I have released.

21 MR. WOOD: You don't have to be

22 quoted. You do not have to be quoted.

23 MR. LEVIN: This is a murder

24 investigation, and I am trying to get an

25 explanation, which can be an innocent


 1 explanation.

 2 MR. WOOD: It could be, but you

 3 pose your question as if it's not not.

 4 That's what's unfair. Why don't you let us

 5 see the report so we can know exactly what's

 6 going on, exactly what other fibers were

 7 found in that area so that you don't

 8 unfairly cast an aspersion through innuendo

 9 or suggestion toward this man and his

10 daughter.

11 It seems to me that you should

12 look over and go look, Mr. Wood, we want

13 your client's help, we will give you the

14 test results if it will help get this

15 answered, if it is so important, we'll tell

16 you whether there was another fiber or fibers

17 found that we doen't know where they came

18 from and maybe he can help you with that

19 information, but that is not what you are

20 doing. You are focusing on what you believe

21 is one specific area. And you are doing it

22 in a way that I think is just unfair.

23 Let me just answer your question

24 about you being quoted. Look, John and

25 Patsy Ramsey sat around for three years and


 1 did not go public with this case, even

 2 though your people were talking to tabloids

 3 and writing books and appearing on

 4 television. Linda Arndt, Steve Thomas, Alex

 5 Hunter.

 6 You want to go through the litany

 7 of how your people have publicly prosecuted

 8 and persecuted this family, and now they

 9 decided enough is enough and they tried to

10 go out with me, yes, sir, and them and try

11 to refute some of the absolute lies that

12 have been told about them. Do you have a

13 problem with that?

14 MR. LEVIN: Mr. Wood.

15 MR. WOOD: Because your people

16 have been saying it. I am not calling your

17 name. I don't know who it is linked to.

18 I don't know who gave the ransom note to

19 Vanity Fair. I'm not suggesting it is you.

20 But don't sit here and tell me that because

21 Bruce Levin hasn't been quoted that this

22 investigation from the Boulder Police

23 Department and the district attorney's office

24 is a lily white when it comes to talking

25 about this case in the media because that is


 1 false, and you know it.

 2 MR. LEVIN: Now, Mr. Wood, if I

 3 can just respond very briefly, and I want

 4 Mr. Ramsey to listen to this because it's

 5 important, the suggestion is that I am

 6 suggesting that the only explanation for that

 7 question is sinister. I am a part of a

 8 team conducting an investigation into your

 9 daughter's death, and an innocent explanation

10 that would help us further that investigation

11 is very welcome. I am not looking for a

12 sinister answer or innocent answer.

13 MR. WOOD: If you are looking for

14 that, then give us the test result and let

15 us know what it says.

16 MR. LEVIN: Mr. Wood, the fact

17 of --

18 MR. WOOD: No, Bruce. If you

19 wanted the answer so badly, you would give

20 us the test result instead of representing

21 what the test result is. I, for the life

22 of me, do not understand the logic.

23 You say we can tell you what the

24 test result is, but we can't show you the

25 test result. So trust us, Mr. Ramsey, and


 1 answer this hypothetical question.

 2 If that information means that

 3 much to this investigation, Bruce, you would

 4 not hesitate to give us that report, period.

 5 So let's move to something else.

 6 MR. LEVIN: Let's move on to

 7 another topic.

 8 THE WITNESS: If the question is

 9 how did fibers of your shirt get into your

10 daughter's underwear, I say that is not

11 possible. I don't believe it. That is

12 ridiculous.


14 change the audio cassette. It will take

15 just one moment.

16 MR. WOOD: Did we ever find it?

17 MR. KANE: No. I can't put my

18 finger on it. I will send it to you.

19 THE WITNESS: Well, we have

20 never, knowingly to me, ever solicited any

21 funds from the public.

22 It was not the intent and is not

23 the intent. In fact, we may even not accept

24 funds from the public because of the

25 innuendoes that seem to be cast upon that.


 1 MR. WOOD: So that we are clear,

 2 too, and Mr. Kane, you do not have this

 3 alleged --

 4 MR. KANE: I have --

 5 MR. WOOD: Excuse me, let me

 6 finish.

 7 MR. KANE: Okay.

 8 MR. WOOD: You do not have as

 9 you represented or at least thought, you do

10 not have here today this public relations ad

11 or whatever you called it claiming that John

12 and Patsy were soliciting public funds? You

13 said you would look for it, and send it to

14 me.

15 MR. KANE: Yes. It is on my

16 computer somewhere, and I can't find it.

17 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, when

18 you came home on the 25th, do you recall if

19 you threw your clothes down the chute to the

20 second floor where someone who might have

21 been in the house would have access to them?

22 Can you tell us who might have done that?

23 A. Who knows. I don't know.

24 Q. I understand it is tough.

25 A. I really don't. Yeah, I don't


 1 know.

 2 MR. WOOD: I mean, you asked for

 3 his clothes in December of '97, you got them

 4 in January of '98. Why, for the love of

 5 common sense and logic, wouldn't you have

 6 asked him about that in June of 1998 when

 7 his memory was a lot more fresh, at least

 8 fresher than it is now two plus years later?

 9 But, you know, that's just a part of the

10 ongoing mystery of some of the aspects of

11 the case, I guess, in terms of the

12 investigation.

13 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Wool shirts, would

14 those normally go out to the cleaners or

15 would it depend? Even now, what is your

16 family practice?

17 A. Well, if it is a dry-cleaning

18 item, we'd normally send it directly to the

19 dry cleaners. Once in a while they get

20 thrown in by mistake, but particularly if it

21 is a shirt.

22 Q. Your dry-cleaning items, would you

23 just throw them down the chute and let Linda

24 sort them out, this is dry-cleaning, this

25 gets washed or would you separate them up


 1 front and keep them in a separate place, if

 2 you recall?

 3 A. I don't -- I am trying to

 4 remember where the laundry chute went to. I

 5 mean, it probably -- I wasn't that organized

 6 to separate things out like that as a normal

 7 course of business.

 8 MR. BECKNER: Did you ask what he

 9 did on that particular night with the shirt?

10 I missed that.

11 THE WITNESS: Frankly, I don't

12 remember.

13 MR. LEVIN: I thought I had asked

14 you. I wasn't sure if that was clear.

15 THE WITNESS: I mean, typically

16 if it is a wool shirt, something that does

17 require dry-cleaning, I try to get several

18 cycles out of it, but I don't remember.

19 MR. BECKNER: What was your

20 normal routine?

21 THE WITNESS: Well, normally, I

22 would --

23 MR. WOOD: About dry-cleaning?


25 THE WITNESS: -- I would hang


 1 onto it. If it was something I wanted to

 2 wear again, I'd hang it, I'd try to, I'd

 3 usually hang it up. Sometimes I would put

 4 it on a chair. But I wasn't religious about

 5 that. I would normally try to hang it up.

 6 Q. (By Chief Beckner) Let me be

 7 more specific. Would you throw your clothes

 8 on the floor typically in a pile?

 9 A. Well, no, not, not if I was, if

10 I was going to wear it again. If it was

11 headed for the laundry, you know, it could

12 end up on the floor before it ended up in

13 the laundry chute, but if I intend to wear

14 it again, if it was a suit or sweater, or

15 something like that, I normally wouldn't

16 throw it on the floor.

17 MR. WOOD: Have we finished that

18 area of questioning because it seemed like

19 maybe it is a good time to take a short

20 break.

21 MR. LEVIN: I am finished with

22 that area.

23 MR. WOOD: Is that okay for

24 everybody to take a short break?

25 MR. LEVIN: That is good.


 1 MR. WOOD: Any guesstimate on

 2 time?

 3 MR. LEVIN: How about if we

 4 discuss it during the break.

 5 MR. WOOD: I am not looking to

 6 force you to answer, but curious for lunch

 7 plans.

 8 MR. LEVIN: Certainly as a courtesy

 9 we will tell you. Let us talk about it and

10 we will let you know.

11 (WHEREUPON, a brief recess was

12 taken.)


14 MR. KANE: Shall I go? Okay.

15 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Mr. Ramsey, after

16 December 26, 1996, did you ever go back in

17 the house?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You never were in it after that?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you ever go back to the

22 house?

23 A. I think I drove by it, but I

24 never went back to the house.

25 Q. You mentioned Dorothy Allison


 1 earlier. Is this Dorothy Allison the

 2 psychic, she is now dead?

 3 A. As far as I know. I heard she

 4 is dead.

 5 Q. Well, I said that. That wasn't a

 6 question. Dorothy Allison is the Dorothy

 7 Allison who was a psychic that's made

 8 comments about this?

 9 A. As far as I know. I never laid

10 eyes on Dorothy Allison, nor heard her. She

11 was on a television program about this case,

12 and we received information as a result of

13 some things she said in terms of leads.

14 Q. Okay. And that was part of that

15 packet you handed in there?

16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

17 Q. There was a sketch that was made

18 based on a description that she --

19 A. Right.

20 Q. -- created. Are you aware of

21 that, that sketch?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Have you gotten any leads as a

24 result of that sketch?

25 A. We have gotten -- I know the lead


 1 level went up dramatically when we put that

 2 out there, and I think the reason for

 3 putting it out there was to keep things

 4 stirred up. One of our objectives certainly

 5 has been to keep this active in the public's

 6 mind.

 7 Q. So after that --

 8 A. Yeah, we got a lot of leads after

 9 that.

10 Q. When you say you put it out

11 there, what do you mean?

12 A. It was put on our website by the

13 investigators.

14 Q. Okay. And you say after that, it

15 got put on your website, you got a lot

16 of --

17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. And is that still on your

19 website?

20 A. I haven't looked, but I don't

21 believe so.

22 Q. Why is that?

23 A. We are trying to keep the website

24 active so people come back. The whole

25 objective here is to keep it stirred up,


 1 keep it active.

 2 Q. Is the ransom note on the

 3 website?

 4 A. It was -- well, the ransom note?

 5 No, I don't think so. No, not that I know

 6 of. I mean, I haven't seen it there.

 7 Q. Was that a conscious decision not

 8 to put it on?

 9 A. I wasn't directly involved with

10 what went on that website from the beginning.

11 I don't know if it was a conscious decision

12 or not.

13 MR. WOOD: I think Ollie would

14 probably know.

15 THE WITNESS: I think it's on the

16 web in other places, I've been told.

17 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Have you been

18 involved in any efforts to publicize the

19 ransom note?

20 A. No. Not -- we wanted it released

21 early on based on strong recommendations that

22 that be done, but --

23 Q. But you haven't, yourself,

24 promoted that or anything?

25 A. Uh-uh (indicating negatively).


 1 Q. Have you gotten anybody in the

 2 last two years who has contacted you saying

 3 they recognize the handwriting?

 4 A. We have gotten, we have gotten

 5 handwriting samples from people that say this

 6 looks familiar. The woman that turned her

 7 ex-husband in sent us a volume of his

 8 handwriting samples.

 9 Q. Well, she was dismissed on other

10 grounds, from what I understand?

11 A. Well, yes.

12 Q. Was there anybody else besides her

13 who submitted handwriting?

14 MR. WOOD: I told you about the

15 Fleet White package that I received.

16 MR. KANE: Yes. That is right.

17 Fleet White.

18 MR. LEVIN: If I can interrupt

19 for just a second, that's based on

20 linguistics, though, if I understood you?

21 MR. WOOD: To tell you the truth,

22 I haven't, other than to recognize what it

23 was, I did not try to study it. So I

24 wouldn't -- my impression was initially it

25 was linguistics, but it might be, it might


 1 reference handwriting.

 2 MR. KANE: Was that a handwritten

 3 note or something of Fleet or --

 4 MR. WOOD: No. It's about an

 5 inch and a half thick report.

 6 MR. KANE: Okay. But it's not

 7 handwritten, I was talking about handwriting

 8 here, was that in here?

 9 MR. WOOD: That is what I was

10 telling Bruce. I didn't study it other than

11 to recognize that it was someone sending me

12 an analysis of Fleet White's writings. And

13 whether it is limited to linguistics or

14 whether it goes into the handwriting issue, I

15 wouldn't state on the record without being

16 certain, but I will get that to you all and

17 you will know exactly what it is.

18 Q. (By Mr. Kane) So, I'm sorry, YOU

19 were saying, you said the Allison woman.

20 Anybody else whose handwriting has been

21 submitted based on -- well, by anybody?

22 A. Well, we received a package that

23 was delivered anonymously, which I believe we

24 turned over to police a couple of years ago.

25 I don't know. It's been --


 1 Q. I mean, to your recollection, has

 2 there been any handwriting you received as a

 3 result of the massive publicity about the

 4 handwriting, or about the ransom note?

 5 A. Is there any? Yeah, yeah.

 6 Q. You received that or your

 7 investigators have?

 8 A. Yeah, as far as I know.

 9 Q. Have you had any of that analyzed

10 by any experts?

11 A. I know early on we had Chris

12 Wolf's handwriting looked at. I know we had

13 them look at several.

14 Q. There have been others that have

15 been looked at by your experts?

16 A. As far as I know.

17 Q. Which experts are these now? I

18 am aware of Mr. Ryle and Mr. Cunningham.

19 A. As far as I know, that is who

20 looked at it.

21 Q. And when you say as far as you

22 know, I mean, have you talked to them about

23 their --

24 A. I've never talked to Ryle and

25 Cunningham directly.


 1 Q. Have you received information

 2 about them, because I am not aware that they

 3 looked at any others when I asked them

 4 besides Chris Wolf? Have you received

 5 information that they have, in fact, looked

 6 at those?

 7 A. I have not received information.

 8 It is my impression that they have, yes.

 9 Q. What was that impression based

10 upon?

11 A. The thousands and thousands of

12 information bits that hit me every day from

13 everywhere.

14 I don't know. Ask them.

15 Q. (By Mr. Beckner) You mentioned

16 Chris Wolf. Did you know Chris Wolf prior

17 to the death of your daughter?

18 A. No.

19 Q. (By Chief Beckner) Had you ever

20 heard of Chris Wolf?

21 A. No.

22 MR. WOOD: There is some

23 connection between Wolf and the Colorado

24 University. Somebody has indicated that

25 there may have been.


 1 MR. WICKMAN: I thought that he

 2 had been to a class.

 3 MR. KANE: I lost my place here.

 4 Q. (By Mr. Kane) You are aware of

 5 Jackie Dilson?

 6 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

 7 Q. Have you ever spoken with Jackie

 8 Dilson yourself?

 9 A. Not directly, I don't believe.

10 We got a videotaped message from her months

11 ago, and that's the first time I had ever

12 seen her.

13 Q. So you never had an one-on-one

14 conversation with her?

15 A. No. Our investigators had, I

16 know, at some length.

17 Q. Do you recall, when you left

18 Jalleo, is that how you pronounce it?

19 A. Jalleo.

20 Q. Jalleo. Jim Marino was quoted in

21 the Denver papers about your leaving. Do

22 you remember that at all?

23 A. No, I don't remember the

24 quote.

25 MR. WOOD: Do you have a quote


 1 you can put in front of him to look at to

 2 refresh him?

 3 MR. KANE: I just asked him if

 4 he would remember it.

 5 MR. WOOD: Why don't you tell him

 6 what the quote was. Maybe he will remember.

 7 (By Mr. Kane) Well, he said that

 8 you had left Jalleo to concentrate on the

 9 investigation, that he had spoken to you the

10 week before?

11 A. I left Jalleo because of the

12 tarnished reputation that had been laid upon

13 me was detrimental to the business.

14 Q. Okay. So it didn't have anything

15 to do with spending more time on the

16 investigation?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You also said that you had gotten

19 a lot of, maybe not a lot, but you got

20 experts to volunteer their time on the case.

21 Who are those people? I never heard a name,

22 but that statement.

23 A. Well, it was part of the group

24 that we asked to present to you in January.

25 John Douglas spent time on it. We have a


 1 number of psychologists that have offered

 2 their help.

 3 Q. Do you know who they are?

 4 A. Well, one of the letters I have

 5 is in the file. We can certainly provide

 6 that to you.

 7 Q. I will be honest with you, when I

 8 got the letter in January, the only person

 9 who was mentioned in there was Kris Sperry.

10 A. My impression was that it was a

11 group of people who had looked at it. It

12 was being led by John -- wasn't Wardman. He

13 used to be a -- whether it is a prosecutor

14 in Denver or not, but I met with him a

15 couple of times.

16 Q. Was he the one from Oregon?

17 A. Yes. I cannot remember the name.

18 But he had a medical associate that was

19 involved with it, I know, out of New Mexico,

20 I think.

21 Q. What was that person's

22 involvement?

23 A. He was a, I believe -- I believe

24 he was a --

25 MR. LEVIN: Forensic pathologist?


 1 That is Sperry. Out of New Mexico?

 2 THE WITNESS: There is another

 3 guy.

 4 MR. RAMSEY: There are several --

 5 MR. LEVIN: Sperry worked in New

 6 Mexico on an Indian reservation to pay off

 7 his student loans many years ago.

 8 THE WITNESS: No. This is a guy

 9 who I believe currently lives in New Mexico.

10 It's not Sperry. I can get you their names.

11 I just don't remember off the top of my

12 head. This was a year ago.

13 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Why did you write

14 the book?

15 A. Needed the money. First of all,

16 we wanted to tell our story. We had been

17 lied about in the press for three years. We

18 wanted to address every one of the media

19 myths that were out there. We wanted one

20 place that the truth was encapsulated. And

21 we wanted to find the killer of our

22 daughter.

23 Q. So by publicizing information, you

24 thought it would generate --

25 A. Yeah.


 1 Q. Okay. Why did you decline to put

 2 in anything about your own investigation?

 3 A. One of the problems we had with

 4 the book is it got way too big. I know

 5 that. And we had to cut a lot.

 6 Q. Why did you decide to cut that?

 7 A. I don't know that we cut that at

 8 all. I don't remember if it was in there

 9 to start with.

10 Q. Well, you made a statement about

11 it.

12 MR. WOOD: What page?

13 THE WITNESS: What's the point?

14 MR. KANE: On page, it's 373.

15 Q. (By Mr. Kane) You say to avoid an

16 accusation of grand standing from the media,

17 not much will be said outside of a close

18 circle about our own efforts to find the

19 killer.

20 A. And not much has been said about

21 it.

22 MR. WOOD: Doesn't that answer

23 your question then?

24 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Well, was that, I

25 mean, was that the reason --


 1 A. Yes.

 2 Q. -- because you didn't want to be

 3 accused of grand standing?

 4 A. We have been in a position, and

 5 we have been for the past three and a half

 6 years, where we are damned if we do, damned

 7 if we don't. And that was our position.

 8 Q. Do you still consider Priscilla

 9 White to be a suspect?

10 A. I never considered either of the

11 Whites to be a suspect. Their behavior

12 post-December '96 was very, very strange.

13 And that -- we were frightened of it, pure

14 and simple.

15 MR. WOOD: Did they ever --

16 THE WITNESS: But I -- you know,

17 we were at their home that evening, they

18 were in good spirits, they had relatives

19 there, I had no reason to consider them

20 suspects.

21 MR. WOOD: All of their letters,

22 you made mention of this, and it now has

23 struck that cord with me on handwriting, it

24 seems that all of Fleet's and Priscilla's

25 joint letters have been typed. Do you all


 1 have handwriting on Fleet White?

 2 MR. KANE: I am sure we do. I

 3 know we do.

 4 (By Mr. Kane) Maybe the word

 5 suspect then needs to be defined. Do you

 6 today think there is a possibility that

 7 Priscilla White killed your daughter?

 8 A. We have not eliminated anyone in

 9 our minds. We have become suspicious of

10 everyone. And that's how I feel.

11 Q. Is there anything, other than what

12 you described on several occasions about what

13 happened down in Atlanta around the time of

14 the funeral, is there anything other than

15 that that would suggest --

16 A. Yeah. God, he is in the paper

17 every few months with some 20 page letter.

18 I just think that -- I don't understand it.

19 I can't explain it. I don't know if he --

20 I mean, it was a traumatic event. They were

21 there. I don't know. But our feeling was

22 that their behavior was frightening.

23 MR. WOOD: You all are aware that

24 there is a problem exists between the libel

25 charges and all of the background behind


 1 that?

 2 MR. KANE: Yes.

 3 MR. WOOD: So all of that, for

 4 whatever reason, is bizarre.

 5 THE WITNESS: But it makes no

 6 sense.

 7 MR. WOOD: Or for whatever

 8 reason. I am not suggesting bizarre to any

 9 individual, but the whole thing is bizarre.

10 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, I

11 don't know for a fact it has been answered,

12 so if the question sounds kind of naive,

13 bear with me. Neither Priscilla nor Fleet,

14 since '98, have made any attempts to contact

15 you, reconcile, restore your friendship, have

16 they?

17 A. Well, they -- we were staying at

18 the Stein's, and they apparently, I learned

19 later, approached Susan, asked to meet with

20 us. And she refused. I wasn't aware of

21 that at the time. There would have been no

22 reason to do that. But maybe that added

23 fuel to the fire. I don't know. From

24 their perspective.

25 But I had written Fleet. I had


 1 a sail off of a sailboard that belonged to

 2 him that got packed inadvertently. And I

 3 sent it back to him with a note, don't

 4 believe what you've read in the media.

 5 He burst in on me one day when I

 6 was meeting with our minister, and I talked

 7 to him then. But other than that --

 8 Q. But nothing in '99 or since June

 9 of '98 --

10 A. No.

11 Q. -- no attempts or no letters from

12 them to renew --

13 A. No.

14 Q. -- your friendship?

15 A. No.

16 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Have you been

17 critical of the Boulder police for not

18 interviewing everyone who was around the

19 neighborhood?

20 A. I have been told that that wasn't

21 done at the beginning, and I had been

22 critical of that, yes.

23 Q. The people who were not

24 interviewed, have your investigators

25 interviewed them?


 1 MR. WOOD: Hold on one second.

 2 I think you are comparing apples and oranges,

 3 slightly. If I understood your question, you

 4 are asking, was he critical of the fact they

 5 weren't interviewed.

 6 MR. KANE: Yeah.

 7 MR. WOOD: And I think his answer

 8 was, yes, that they weren't interviewed early

 9 on. And obviously the opportunity for his

10 investigators to interview them early on, you

11 know, is lost.

12 THE WITNESS: My understanding is

13 the information we sent to Chief Beckner was

14 a list of people that we were aware of that

15 hadn't been talked to, and I believe the

16 Chief said he had, that that had been done.

17 So --

18 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Have any of your

19 investigators interviewed any of those people

20 themselves?

21 A. I know they have interviewed a

22 number of people. I don't know if they have

23 interviewed all of them. I mean, ask our

24 investigator.

25 Q. Mr. Ramsey, to follow up on the


 1 neighborhood, it was brought to my

 2 attention --

 3 THE WITNESS: Do we want an

 4 answer to that question or not?

 5 MR. WOOD: If you all make your

 6 list, add that to the list when all is said

 7 and done, and I will consider it and get you

 8 an answer if it is appropriate. It probably

 9 will be.

10 Q. (By Mr. Levin) It was brought to

11 my attention fairly recently that a woman I

12 believe named Jean Fortier, F-o-r-t-i-e-r, for

13 the reporter, who are the parents of some

14 children who were over your house on

15 Christmas, and they, they, she, excuse me,

16 said that her children reported to her at

17 Christmas day when they went over to play,

18 they played with Burke but that JonBenet did

19 not play because she was sick. I hadn't

20 heard that before. Is that nonsense?

21 A. Absolutely. I don't know who

22 that is, but we had a whole parcel of kids

23 there all day.

24 MR. KANE: I have to bolt.

25 MR. LEVIN: Do you have anything


 1 left?

 2 MR. KANE: No.

 3 MR. LEVIN: Mike's got to catch a

 4 plane.

 5 (WHEREUPON, Mr. Kane left the

 6 interview.)

 7 Q. (By Chief Beckner) What about

 8 your relationship with John and Barbara

 9 Furnham --

10 A. It was -- they were good friends.

11 We spent a fair amount of time together.

12 They were good family friends.

13 Q. Are they still good friends?

14 A. Well, we certainly consider them

15 friends. Barbara had some emotional problems

16 before this all happened, and John wrote us,

17 I don't know, I guess months later and said

18 that Barbara is having difficulty dealing

19 with this and please ask Patsy not to write

20 her or respond to her.

21 I have talked to John a few

22 times, but not, not recently.

23 Q. Since June of '98, have you

24 talked to John?

25 A. Possibly. I don't remember


 1 specifically, but I have talked to him

 2 probably twice, I guess.

 3 Q. By telephone?

 4 A. By telephone.

 5 Q. (By Mr. Wickman) John, I asked

 6 this of Patsy earlier this morning. Since

 7 you relocated to Atlanta, have there been any

 8 threats to you, to her, or to Burke?

 9 A. There have been. In fact, I just

10 got one last night on the internet. The guy

11 was in New York and said if I ever came to

12 New York, I was done for.

13 We've had people come to our

14 door -- I mean to our home. We put a gate

15 up. But what has been uplifting for us is

16 that, in the last three and a half years,

17 virtually everyone who has approached us has

18 been kind and sympathetic.

19 But we would get occasional hate

20 letters. We haven't gotten many, haven't

21 gotten too many recently other than the one

22 last night.

23 Q. I was in discussion with an

24 Atlanta detective probably a year and a half

25 ago about some guy beating on your door in


 1 order to meet somebody -- I don't know if it

 2 was you or Patsy -- at the club or

 3 something. Do you remember that?

 4 A. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that.

 5 That was one of the, he rang our doorbell

 6 basically at 2:00 in the morning and said, I

 7 saw the lights were on so I figured we were

 8 up. We had an intercom system. He said I

 9 have got critical information. Well, it's

10 2:00, we will meet you. I think he said

11 yes to that and we called the Atlanta police

12 and I guess they contacted you.

13 Q. Yeah, and I don't remember, but I

14 don't think it panned out.

15 A. No. The Atlanta police came back

16 that afternoon and said the guy was

17 certifiable, and we never heard from him

18 again.

19 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, your

20 wife told us that there was a college

21 student that was staying with the Steins, I

22 believe, named Nathan Inouwe?

23 MR. WOOD: It was a reference in

24 the book.

25 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Okay. Had you,


 1 prior to the murder of your daughter, had

 2 you had any contact with him?

 3 A. Yeah. We would see him at their

 4 house. He would drive the kids to school

 5 occasionally in a carpool, Patsy would take

 6 them, sometimes, Susan would sometimes or

 7 Nathan would take them.

 8 Q. Was there anything unusual about

 9 his conduct -- and I am asking for your

10 contemporaneous impression, and then I'm going

11 to ask you about the post-murder impression.

12 Your contemporaneous impression of Mr. Inouwe

13 I assume was favorable if you let him drive

14 your kids to school?

15 A. Yes. He was a very, very kind,

16 nice person.

17 Q. Keeping in mind that you told us

18 that you are suspicious of everyone, is there

19 anything in particular about Mr. Inouwe,

20 using the power of hindsight, that causes you

21 today to be particularly suspicious of him?

22 A. Nothing specifically in terms of

23 his actions or what he said. Have I

24 eliminated him? No, I haven't. I thought

25 about that from time to time, but I don't


 1 consider him of strong, strong interest.

 2 Q. We asked Mrs. Ramsey about the

 3 Bloomi's underpants that JonBenet was wearing

 4 when she was found murdered, and we are

 5 trying to kind of track those from purchase

 6 to her. And again, I suspect you probably

 7 don't have detailed information --

 8 A. No.

 9 Q. -- about your child's underwear,

10 but you can see why I need to ask the

11 questions; right?

12 A. Right.

13 Q. We believe that they were

14 purchased in November of 1996. Were you

15 aware of their existence before JonBenet's

16 death?

17 A. No, but I wouldn't have been.

18 But I mean, I -- what I know is what was

19 asked of Patsy when she said, you know, we

20 were on a trip to New York. She bought

21 them and I think had planned to give them to

22 her niece, who is older than JonBenet, and

23 then they, for some reason, decided that

24 JonBenet would have them. I don't know if

25 she wanted them or if Patsy gave them to


 1 her, but --

 2 Q. The niece that they were purchased

 3 for, I think, was Jenny Davis?

 4 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

 5 Q. Do you recall approximately how

 6 big she was in 1996? I know it is a tough

 7 question.

 8 A. She's either a junior or a senior

 9 in high school now. And she's fairly

10 stocky.

11 Q. Was there anything about the

12 Bloomi's underwear that was particularly,

13 other than the fact that they come from

14 Bloomingdale's, fascinating that caused them

15 to be, you know, JonBenet would talk about

16 them or something, like I have these cool

17 panties that have the days of the week,

18 anything that would direct your attention to

19 them?

20 A. No, no.

21 Q. As far as the size, they were for

22 an 85-pound girl. Were you aware she was

23 wearing these real big panties?

24 A. Only after the fact.

25 Q. After the fact?


 1 A. Yeah.

 2 Q. Our information that we developed

 3 from the grand, well -- after the grand

 4 jury, actually, were you unaware of any

 5 incident where JonBenet had any accidents at

 6 school where she would have to go into the

 7 extra panty box that most grammar schools

 8 keep for young kids? Do you have a memory

 9 of an incident that is contrary to that?

10 A. At school?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. No.

13 Q. (By Chief Beckner) Did you, the

14 night of the 25th, did you help undress

15 JonBenet?

16 A. I did. I think I was asked that

17 before, but I don't -- I mean, I at least

18 took her shoes off, I believe, later on. I

19 carried her upstairs, laid her in bed, took

20 her shoes off. I don't know if I took her

21 coat off.

22 Usually what I would do is try to

23 get her semi-ready for bed because it wasn't

24 infrequent she would fall to sleep when we

25 came home like that, before we got home.


 1 Patsy would come in, get her in bed totally.

 2 Q. I guess what I mean is, did you

 3 notice at that time whether she was or was

 4 not wearing underwear?

 5 A. I mean, I think I would have

 6 noticed if she wasn't. But I don't

 7 remember. I really don't.

 8 Q. Do you recall if you took her

 9 underwear off?

10 A. No, I'm sure I did not.

11 MR. LEVIN: Mr. Wickman?

12 Questions?

13 MS. HARMER: Nothing.

14 MR. LEVIN: I think we are done.

15 MR. WOOD: All right.

16 MR. LEVIN: Thank you for talking

17 to us.

18 MR. BECKNER: Thank you for your

19 time.

20 THE WITNESS: You are welcome.

21 Thanks for coming out.

22 (Whereupon, the interview of JOHN

23 RAMSEY was concluded.)

24 .

25 .




 3 I hereby certify that the foregoing

 4 transcript was reported, as stated in the

 5 caption, and the questions and answers

 6 thereto were reduced to typewriting under my

 7 direction; that the foregoing pages represent

 8 a true, complete, and correct transcript of

 9 the evidence given upon said hearing, and I

10 further certify that I am not of kin or

11 counsel to the parties in the case; am not

12 in the employ of counsel for any of said

13 parties; nor am I in anywise interested in

14 the result of said case.

15 .

16 .




20 My commission expires on the

21 17th day of March, 2001.

22 .

23 .

24 .

25 .