11/30/2007 (www.cnn.com) Larry King Live

“Guests: Kyle Toutges, Sue Doman, Kyle Piry, Joel Brodsky”


PLEASE NOTE: This original official transcript has been (SNIPPED) to include ONLY information discussion on the Stacy Peterson and/or Kathleen Savio case



Interview with Fred Thompson; Stacy Peterson Update

Aired November 30, 2007 - 21:00 ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Plus, the Stacy Peterson case takes an astonishing turn.

Did her brother-in-law unwittingly help her husband dispose of her body?

Some answers, next on LARRY KING LIVE.


Coming up, the heat just got hotter on a suspect in Stacy Peterson's disappearance and her presumed death. It's her husband, Drew.

We'll be right back.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says he believes that he helped you dispose of your wife's body.

Can you at least respond to that?



PETERSON: No response. Talk to my lawyer. I've got nothing to say about it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No truth to it whatsoever?

PETERSON: None. Nobody helped me with anything.



KING: Welcome back.

Stacy Peterson, a 23-year-old mother of two, was reported missing on October 29 -- the morning after she failed to show up at her relatives' home. Illinois state police have named her husband Drew a suspect in his previous wife's disappearance. Drew, who is 53, was a local police sergeant. He has since resigned.

We have major discussions on all of this for the remainder of the program. We start in Chicago with Kyle Toutges, who is Stacy Peterson's uncle.

In Rockford, Illinois, Sue Doman. Her sister, Kathleen Savio, was married to Drew Peterson. Kathleen's death is now being investigated.

And in Modesto, California, an old friend, Ron Grantski, the stepfather of Laci Peterson, whose association is obvious. Laci, his daughter -- stepdaughter -- went missing five years ago Christmas Eve. And just the oddity of having the same name.

Any progress, Kyle, into whether they're going to bring charges at all?

KYLE TOUTGES, STACY PETERSON'S UNCLE: It's moving a little slow, but they just want to make sure they have everything before they arrest him.

KING: Why do you think -- why do you think he did it?

TOUTGEN: Because he had threatened to do it. I mean he had threatened other people that he could do it.

KING: Had you spoken to your niece much?

TOUTGEN: Yes, I have a picture here from Columbus Day. We had a birthday party for my son there.

KING: Did she fear -- did she express fear to you?

TOUTGEN: No, not really fear to me, no. But there was an incident where he didn't believe that she was at where she said she was at.

KING: He was jealous, right?


KING: Did you -- do you know Drew very well.

TOUTGEN: Not that well, just Thanksgiving, Christmas and here and there.

KING: All right, Sue, your sister was married to Drew. She -- her death is now being investigated.

Did they exhume the body?

SUE DOMAN, SISTER KATHLEEN SAVIO DIED SUDDENLY AFTER DIVORCE FROM PETERSON: Yes, they did, Larry. We hired Dr. Baden to go ahead and do the autopsy. He did an excellent job. He talked to us for about an hour-and-a-half and discussed what he would be looking for. And he actually wanted to know time lines and everything, that -- if we had any other information to help him with that.

It was about three hours later he came back and he did tell us that it was a homicide and that she did struggle. And she was placed in the bathtub.

KING: So you suspect the worst in the disappearance of Stacy?

DOMAN: Yes, I do. Yes.

KING: What can you tell us about Drew?

DOMAN: We've always had suspicions on Drew. You know, like I had said to everyone else, we always believed that it was not an accident. I just hope to God that they find Stacy alive, but my doubts are not very good, especially with a man like him.

KING: Did your sister express fears about him?

DOMAN: Yes, Larry, she did. She told everyone -- everyone that he was going to kill her and it was going to look like an accident. The Thursday before she passed away, she called me. And she was crying and she was upset. And she said, "I don't think I'm going to make it."

And I said, "Well, what's the matter?"

And she said, "I think he's going to kill me and it's going to look like an accident."

You know, as -- the settlement would have been two weeks at that time.

KING: And now we understand that the stepbrother of Drew is claiming that he may have inadvertently assisted in getting rid of the body, right?


DOMAN: Yes, that's what I hear. Yes. Yes.

KING: And helping him carry a pack of -- some sort of bundle out the night she went missing.

DOMAN: Right. Right. Exactly. Yes.

KING: Ron Grantski, how do you react to all of this?

I mean you lived through a similar circumstance.

RON GRANTSKI, LACI PETERSON'S STEPFATHER: It's -- it's just, what a shame.

First, I want to give my condolences to the families.

TOUTGEN: Thank you.

GRANTSKI: It's just a shame we go through this. But I cannot believe that somebody should have called his Morphey or confronted him or something, which might have helped in this situation. And it's just kind of amazing. I've seen him on TV a couple of times and it's amazing how his personality resembles another Peterson I know.

KING: Oh, you see a similarity between him and Scott, who's in prison now awaiting the death sentence?

GRANTSKI: His personality, just listening to the way he talked and nonchalantly and with humor and like it was no big deal, like he was above this or beyond it. And, Larry...

DOMAN: And, Larry, if I can say something?

KING: Sure.

DOMAN: My sister -- my sister did go to the chief of police. It was pretty much put to the side. She did go to everyone that would listen. She wrote to the state's attorney. She tried everything and no one would listen to her. Drew had everyone convinced that she was crazy and it was just another joke with her.

TOUTGEN: That's what he told us -- she was crazy.

KING: Wow!

GRANTSKI: That's a real shame.

KING: We're going to take a break.

GRANTSKI: I'm sorry to hear that.

KING: Kyle and Sue and Ron will be coming back with us.

DOMAN: Take care.

KING: When we come back, they'll be rejoining us out there. Don't go away.

But when we come back, we're going to meet Kyle Piry, the former fiance of Drew Peterson. And we're also going to hear from Drew Peterson's attorney. That's all next.

Don't go away.


RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If Drew Peterson killed his wife, did he have help getting rid of the body?

Bizarre new allegations indicate his stepbrother, Thomas Morphey, may have unwittingly helped him. Investigators have been quoted saying Morphey believes Stacy Peterson may have been inside the large blue plastic container he helped Drew remove from the home the day she vanished.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A close friend of Stacy Peterson's family said searchers had been told weeks ago to look for a blue container. State police won't talk about the investigation.

PAMELA BOSCO, STACY PETERSON FAMILY SPOKESWOMAN: We did suspect that probably somebody did help with this container. We heard that three weeks ago, we always suspected that might have been the case. We always have questions about what happened with that container, who helped him with it after that.


KING: Joining us now in Chicago is Kyle Piry, the former fiancee of Drew Peterson. Also in Chicago is Joe Brodsky, the attorney for Joe Peterson.

Before we talk with Joe, Kyle, what do you make of this whole story?

KYLE PIRY, DREW PETERSON'S FORMER FIANCEE: I see some of the similarities and stories from Stacy and Kathleen, some of the things that Drew did or has said, similar to things that I had experienced when we were engaged.

KING: Was that the reason you broke the engagement?

PIRY: Yes, I broke it off basically because he was extremely controlling and would say mean-spirited things, would follow me, that sort of thing. So that's basically at that point I was only 20 years old and he was 27. So I just felt like it wasn't a relationship that I wanted to get into.

KING: Did he ever threaten you?

PIRY: He never threatened to -- no, actually he never threatened me. He did -- after I had broken up with him, he did in one instance I did go back to get some of my things and it did grow into a confrontation where he pushed me over a coffee table and had the same sort of experience where I called the police department and having them kind of, you know, the policemen they had sent over was one of his friends so he at that time told me that he was upset and let's just let it go and unfortunately I did.

KING: Joe Brodsky, as the attorney for Drew Peterson, one of the problems in a case like this where so much attention is given, is there's almost a presumption of guilt, right?

JOE BRODSKY, DREW PETERSON ATTORNEY: Yes. And it goes counter to the American justice system. I find that this trial by rumor and speculation and innuendo, it is disturbing, it really is.

KING: And what do you do about it as a lawyer?

BRODSKY: Well, as a lawyer in analyzing what I have been hearing all over as a lawyer, the one conclusion I come to and my colleagues come to is that there isn't one shred of evidence that is admissible in a court of law that's been brought forth, not one. And that reads the conclusion of what we're left with is to try this man by innuendo and rumor and matters that took place over a quarter century ago, and that's really unfair.

KING: What does he tell you? Does he say he's innocent?

BRODSKY: Absolutely. I mean so many things differ from what you hear in the media. For example, with Kyle, he tells me that he's the one that broke up with Kyle. Now with all due respect to Kyle and to Drew, to remember wrapped what happened a quarter century ago is extremely hard. I, after hearing Kyle the first time, I thought back to what occurred in my life 25 years ago and there's probably very significant incidences in my life from 25 years of ago that I have no recollection of. So for her to have these specific recollections is a little bit amazing. Perhaps it is. But Drew has a different set of recollections about what happened a quarter century ago.

KING: Kyle, you have no doubt, right?

PIRY: I have no doubt that he pushed me over a coffee table and I called the police. Absolutely not. Those are not things I would forget.

KING: And that you broke it off?

PIRY: I broke it off, absolutely.

KING: Just this, if you would, Joe, it's been reported that when Drew took his stepbrother Tom home, Tom went and talked to his neighbor about what happened. Here's what the neighbor had to say on the "Today" show.


WALTER MARTINECK JR., DREW PETERSON'S NEIGHBOR: His eyes were sunken in the back of his head. He took me by my shoulders and told my I can't say anything, and he just told me that he thinks he helped dispose of Stacy's body.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did he think that he had done that?

MARTINECK: Because when he helped Drew, that's what he told me, when he had helped Drew take something out of the house, it was warm to the touch.


KING: All right, Joe, I would imagine as a good lawyer, you would have asked Drew about that?

BRODSKY: Well, absolutely. And it did not occur. Tomas Morphy (ph) is a very troubled individual. In looking at his past, he has multiple psychiatric admissions, he has multiple DUI convictions. His wife, by the way, Tom Morphy's wife vanished 10, 12 years ago without a trace.

So when you look at this individual, you really have to wonder how credible of a witness he is. And the fact that he may are repeated something to a neighbor doesn't make him any more credible. He's just a troubled individual. And his story doesn't seem to make sense because we're talking -- people talk about moving a barrel, and then the barrel becomes a tub and then the tub becomes a tote bag. In fact, the state's attorney in Will County has so much trouble in his testimony that they haven't taken him before the grand jury because of what has been reported about his memory lapses that have occurred.

KING: I got you. Will Drew take a lie detector test?

BRODSKY: No. I belong to an organization called the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers and they commissioned a study that appeared in their magazine about a year ago and it talked about the statistical reliability of lie detector tests. And the conclusion they came to was that a lie detector test is about as statistically reliable as flipping a coin. So if you ask him to take a lie detector test, you might as well ask him to flip a coin, it's just as reliable. So no, he won't take a lie detector test.

KING: Thank you both very much. Kyle Piry and Joe Brodsky, we'll be calling on you again and we hope that this whole story unravels and we do hope that no one is convicted by television. We'll be right back.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The search for Stacy continues. The FBI has searchers focused specifically on waterways. Officials say her body may have been dumped in the water based on cell phone calls placed from that area. Meanwhile Drew Peterson remains free. Police say he's a suspect but he's denied doing anything wrong and hasn't been charged. He's resigned from his job with the Bolingbrook P.D. and in his free time continues his strange behavior.



KING: Our panel remains. Kyle Toutges, Sue Doman, Ron Grantski and Kyle Piry from the last segment remains as well. Is a search still going on, Kyle, do you know?

TOUTGES: Yeah, we're still looking, we're going to be out there tomorrow. We're not giving up until we find Stacy.

KING: So that hasn't ended?


KING: So why, Sue, do you think she didn't leave?

DOMAN: I believe that she didn't leave because I think that Drew probably threatened her. I'm sure that that's what happened. And he probably did something to her.

KING: And one of the puzzling aspects of your case, Ron, was that Laci was not a tortured wife, was she?

GRANTSKI: No, not to anyone in our family. Our family and friends, nobody knew. No one said a word about her having any problems. Because naturally it wouldn't have -- she wouldn't have had that problem.

KING: Yeah. Which made it a bigger puzzlement. Kyle Piry, why do you think Stacy didn't leave. You left.

PIRY: Well, I don't know Stacy well enough to try to figure that out. I don't know. I can't say for her.

KING: Kyle, have you talked to Drew since your niece went missing?

TOUTGES: Me personally? No.

KING: Have you thought about calling him, talking to him?



TOUTGES: No. You tend not to hang around people that threaten you.

KING: So you don't think you would have learned anything?

TOUTGES: No, I don't think so.

KING: Sue, would you -- do you think you would have talked to him?

DOMAN: Not at all. I wouldn't believe anything that he said anyway, I have a lot of anger towards him. Absolutely not.

KING: Ron, is all this to you, for want of a better word, normal?

GRANTSKI: No, not at all. No, I don't think so. Not in my house. Our people, our family would probably be getting very irate with this Mr. Peterson. Has he ever been out on a search looking for his wife?

TOUTGES: I have. He hasn't.

GRANTSKI: Has Drew Peterson been out looking?


GRANTSKI: I wonder why that is.

TOUTGES: Because the cameras would follow him around, is what he said.

DOMAN: But yet he can pose around in front of the cameras.


GRANTSKI: Yeah, that's my point. I would think that if he's looking for his wife, that would be a good thing not a bad thing.

TOUTGES: Exactly.

KING: That's weird. Let me get a break and we'll come back with more on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE. Stay right there.


KING: Kyle, Sue and Ron Romaine with us. We're now joined in New York by Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist, author of "Till Death Do Us Part."

And in Miami Dr. Michael Hunter, forensic pathologist. Overall Dr. Ludwig, without assuming anybody's guilty, what is your read on something like this?

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, Drew Peterson seems to be like an abusive husband. I would put him under the controlling category. He's quite problematic, I mean what we know about abusive husbands is they only get worse. And they have a real need to feel good about themselves and they do this by abusing their wives and so it's just really a dangerous situation, a time bomb waiting to happen and the fact that he's a police officer can just exacerbate the problem because they're able to hide what they're doing a little bit easier than other people might be able to.

KING: But all abusers aren't murders. LUDWIG: No. And that's the difficult here, it sometimes is very hard to predict who actually will end up becoming a murder because not all abusers are murders, but if you look at the history of people who kill their wives, they are abusive or neglectful if you look at their history in hindsight, but it's very hard to predict these things, virtually impossible.

KING: Dr. Hunter, Kathleen Savio, his previous ex-wife was exhumed and Dr. Michael Baden says it was not an accident. What do you use to determine that? Since the original autopsy pronounced it an accidental death.

MICHAEL HUNTER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, I think the initial manner of death here is inaccurate. This should never have been classified as an accidental death. A young woman who has no known natural disease simply doesn't drown in a bathtub.

Now with a history of a domestic violence, the first deputy who came on to that scene should have handled this as a homicide straight away. There should have been someone from the attorney's office there, the state attorney's office to look at this. The coroner should been there, there should have been a lot of bells to look at this case closely.

Now as far as an exhumation, it's hard to say what you're going to find differently than in the first exam, but even if you don't find the blunt injuries and so forth that you might typically associate with an assault, the drowning of a person like this has to be looked at as a homicidal case.

KING: Is it true, Kyle, or do you know if Stacy had asked for a divorce?

TOUTGES: I know she was planning on it.

KING: Planning on it.

TOUTGES: Planning on it, yes. She was going to go Monday, that was her plans.

KING: Do you have advice, Ron, to the relatives when you're waiting out something like a missing person?

GRANTSKI: Well, first of all, it's never going to be easy, especially when you're waiting for word on a loved one and you're waiting for the worst but hoping for the best, you just have to be close to each other, if there's anything you can think of that would help, either to find her or that would make it easier for the police in their search or their case, write it down. And always try to remember dates. But just stick together.

KING: Yeah. Sue, when Kathleen died, did you suspect foul play?

DOMAN: Yes, definitely, yes. Yes.

KING: Did you bring that protest to anyone? Did you say to the examiner, let's look at this again?

DOMAN: I actually did talk to the coroner over the phones many times and he said that they were looking at everything and he said that -- I asked him, I said, well were things moved around in the bathtub to look like maybe there was a fight or something? He said, you know, that's funny, everything was in place. What does that have to do with anything? When someone would do that, they could have put that stuff in place. It has nothing to do with the body. I just felt like he was very informant (ph).

KING: We'll be back with our remaining moments on this puzzlement. Don't go away.


MARTINECK: Drew's a very powerful person and he could do -- he could do anything from what I was told.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The allegations keep flying against Drew Peterson. Appearing on the "Today" show, 40 year old Walter Martineck, a long time friend to one of Drew Peterson's relatives claims a relative told him that on October 28, the day Stacy Peterson disappeared, that Drew paid him to help move a large rectangular container that was warm to the touch from a bedroom in the couple's home to Drew's SUV.



KING: We're back with our remaining moments, we understand Ron Grantski had something to say. Ron?

GRANTSKI: It's just happens to be five years for us. And we're going into the holidays and as most people know, it's a tough time and we also have our memorial ride tomorrow, our Laci and Connor memorial ride. And after all that being said, I hope you folks there can struggle through this because it will be a struggle and try to help out each other and understand that each one of you are different, you're all going to react to this differently. Just be there for one another.

KING: Dr. Ludwig, isn't that the hardest part, when someone's missing and you don't know?

LUDWIG: Yeah, it is really hard because part of what helps us come to terms with grief is actually to see the body and for people who agree without ever seeing a body, they have this undying fantasy that somehow their family member will walk through the door. So grieving is tough, no matter what. But it's particularly difficult if you don't have that visual symbol that the person is not with us anymore.

KING: Is it possible, Dr. Hunter that a seasoned police officer knows how to get away with something?

HUNTER: You know, I think you're right. I think in law enforcement, you certainly learn things that can benefit you if you want to get away with it, and maybe that's what's happened here.

KING: Do you have any hope for Stacy, Kyle.

TOUTGES: We still hope, but we doubt. I mean we really have our doubts.

KING: Sue, would you have your doubts too?

DOMAN: I do have my doubts too. Yeah, I do. I'm so sorry about that, too.

TOUTGES: It's not your fault.

KING: Yeah, you didn't do anything wrong. Now let's hope that we resolve this and come to an answer.

TOUTGES: That's why we're here tonight.

DOMAN: Larry? You know - Larry?

KING: Yeah, go ahead, Sue.

DOMAN: You know, I think that, you know, if the police would have did something with my sister, if there was some kind of punishment for him or taking his gun away or something, maybe this wouldn't have happened to my sister or Stacy. You know?

KING: Thank you all very much.

DOMAN: It's horrible.

TOUTGES: I agree about that.

KING: We wish you nothing but the best.

DOMAN: Thank you.