August 2000 Patsy Ramsey Atlanta Interview
(Burke and Hi-Tec Boots)

0026
7 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Go ahead.
8 A. Well, I believe that from this
9 group of experts we know the sequence of the
10 way in which she died. I am not sure -- I
11 don't think I know. There may be other
12 things that that group had to present, but
13 that is the one thing that I can remember.
14 Otherwise, I think Mr. Gray has
15 turned over everything, any piece of anything
16 that he thinks is significant to the police
17 department, including just recently a pair of
18 Hi-Tec boots that were obtained from one of
19 the suspects. We don't know what has
20 happened with that since, and we would like
21 to know that.
22 Q. Anything else?
23 A. No.

---

(SNIP)

---

0028
12 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Other than --
13 well, let's talk about the Hi-Tec boots.
14 You said you believe that a suspect had a
15 pair of Hi-Tec boots that were sent to us.
16 A. (Witness nodded head
17 affirmatively).
18 Q. Who was that?
19 A. His name is Helgother or Gogather.
20 Q. This is the man who committed
21 suicide?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How is it that your team, for
24 lack of a better word, how is it that your
25 team came into possession of those? Do you

0030
1 know?
2 A. No, I do not.
3 Q. Have you been told or offered an
4 explanation?
5 A. Of how?
6 Q. Of how you got into possession of
7 a pair of boots that belonged to someone who
8 committed suicide several years ago.
9 A. I believe Mr. Gray obtained them.
10 Q. I don't believe that I have ever
11 heard you discuss him as a potential suspect
12 in this case. Can you tell us what
13 information you are in possession of that
14 causes you to hold that belief?
15 A. I understand that he committed
16 suicide on the 14th day of February '97. He
17 was in the possession of a stun gun, and we
18 believe, as best we can tell, that it was an
19 AirTaser stun gun, and that apparently
20 matches the markings that were found on
21 JonBenet's body. And he owned a pair of
22 Hi-Tec boots that appeared to be the same
23 size as the footprint found at the crime
24 scene.
25 Q. That information, I am assuming,

0031
1 comes from the work that was done by Mr.
2 Gray? Is that the source of that? If I
3 am incorrect, tell me what the source is.
4 A. Yes, I think.
5 MR. LEVIN: Mitch or Mike, do you
6 want to do some more on their investigation?
7 MR. KANE: Sure.
8 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Let me just follow
9 up the last question. What was the name of
10 the suspect?
11 A. It is an unusual name. It is
12 Helgoth or Golgath.
13 MR. WOOD: I think you all asked
14 her about him in June of 1998 by name.
15 Michael Helgoth.
16 MR. LEVIN: For the Reporter, I
17 believe it's H-e-l-g-o-t-h.
18 THE WITNESS: Lin just said it is
19 Michael Helgoth.
20 Q. (By Mr. Kane) What else do you
21 know about Mr. Helgoth?
22 A. That is all, that is all I know.
23 Q. Did you ever hear that name
24 before?
25 A. No.

0032
1 Q. It was not somebody who was known
2 to your family?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Besides Mr. Gray, do you have any
5 information, has anyone else given you any
6 information about him?
7 A. Not that I can think of, no.
8 Q. Besides the fact -- where did
9 you --
10 Did Mr. Gray tell you that he had
11 an AirTaser stun gun on him when he
12 committed suicide?
13 A. Yes. I believe there is a
14 photograph that he had.
15 Q. And was it Mr. Gray who told you
16 that he had Hi-Tec boots? Was he wearing
17 those? I am sorry, that is a double
18 question. Was it Mr. Gray who told you that
19 he had Hi-Tec boots?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And was he wearing them at the
22 time? Is that your understanding?
23 A. I don't know that.
24 Q. Outside of the fact that he
25 committed suicide, he had a pair of Hi-Tec

0033
1 boots, and an AirTaser, is there any other
2 information you have that connects him to
3 this crime?
4 A. Not that I have, no.
5 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) Have you seen
6 this photograph where Mr. Helgoth has the
7 stun gun? Have you actually seen that
8 photograph?
9 A. No, I don't believe so.
10 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Do you know how
11 Mr. Gray came into possession of these boots?
12 A. I don't know exactly, no.
13 MR. WOOD: I think that was
14 explained in a memo to Chief Beckner by Mr.
15 Gray that he sent to him in the last couple
16 of weeks.
17 THE WITNESS: You all have the
18 boots now.
19 MR. KANE: That wasn't my
20 question. I want to know what you know
21 about those.
22 Q. (By Mr. Kane) So you don't know
23 how he came into possession of those boots?
24 A. I think he said he might have
25 gotten them from a family member, or --

0034
1 Q. When did you learn this?
2 A. Some time ago. A couple of
3 months ago.
4 Q. And was that the first time you
5 heard about Mr. Helgoth having Hi-Tec boots?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. And did you learn
8 about that in a personal conversation with
9 Mr. Gray or did you learn it indirectly
10 through somebody else?
11 A. I think I probably heard it from
12 John.
13 Q. Have you ever talked to Mr. Gray
14 about those Hi-Tec boots?
15 A. Yes.

---

(SNIP)

---

8 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mrs. Ramsey, I
9 would like to ask you some questions on an
10 area that actually you started to talk about
11 when we were talking about the investigation
12 being conducted at your behest, and that is
13 the Hi-Tec shoes.
14 You are, I would assume, aware of
15 the fact that there is a Hi-Tec shoe
16 impression in the wine cellar?
17 A. Yes, I am.
18 Q. How did you become aware of that,
19 if you can recall?
20 A. I don't remember if I read it in
21 the paper or one of our lawyers told us.
22 Q. Was it something you have been
23 aware of for a substantial period of time,
24 though?
25 A. Yes.

0116
1 Q. And do you recall, I know you had
2 several conversations with Lou Schmidt or
3 other investigators working for you, is it
4 something, prior to your interviews in 1998,
5 that you had discussed either with your
6 lawyers or with your investigators? And I
7 don't want to know about the conversations
8 between you and your attorneys, obviously,
9 but something that you talked about?
10 A. I can't remember if I knew about
11 it before then or not.
12 Q. When you were interviewed in 1998
13 by the Boulder D.A.'s office and some of
14 their helpers, were you at that time aware
15 of the fact that the Hi-Tec existence or non
16 existence of an identifiable source for the
17 Hi-Tec shoes was something that seemed to be
18 important to the investigation?
19 A. Are you asking me if they were
20 wanting to know if I knew anyone with Hi-Tec
21 boots?

---

(SNIP)

---

0117
21 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Did you believe,
22 and if I didn't throw that in, I thought it
23 was clear, did you believe that, in the
24 course of the investigation, that identifying
25 the source of the Hi-Tec shoes was important?

0118
1 A. Well, I would think it is
2 important, yes. I mean, I can't remember at
3 that time if I knew about the Hi-Tec shoes
4 or not. I don't remember when all that
5 surfaced.
6 Q. You have since then, since 1998,
7 become aware that the source of the Hi-Tec
8 shoes is important?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You know that today?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you thought that one of the
13 things that made Helgoth viable was the fact
14 that you believe he had Hi-Tec shoes?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Have you, whether it was before
17 the interview in 1998 or subsequent to the
18 interview in 1998, have you personally made
19 attempts to find possible sources for the
20 Hi-Tec shoe impression?
21 A. You mean like ask around if
22 anybody had --
23 Q. Pick up the phone and call some
24 friends, for example.
25 A. I didn't, no.

0119
1 Q. Had you at any time, for example,
2 some of the kids, like the Colby kids ever
3 come over, did you ever go and just pick up
4 the phone or walk across the alley and say,
5 do you guys have Hi-Tec shoes? Did you ever
6 do anything like that?
7 MR. WOOD: You are assuming she
8 may have learned about it at the time she
9 still lived there. She told you she wasn't
10 sure when she first learned that.
11 THE WITNESS: No, I did not call
12 the Colbys to ask if their children had --
13 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Whether it was
14 from Boulder or Atlanta?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. Okay. Did you sit down and
17 discuss with Burke at any length whether or
18 not he ever had Hi-Tec shoes?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did it cross your mind that he
21 might be the source of that, for the Hi-Tec
22 shoes?
23 A. No. Because my understanding was
24 that it was an adult footprint. He was nine
25 years old at the time.

0120
1 Q. Do you know the source of your
2 belief that it was an adult's foot,
3 footprint?
4 A. Whoever told me about it or
5 wherever I learned it in the first place.
6 Q. Did you get any details concerning
7 how much of a shoe impression was present?
8 A. No. It was just a footprint.
9 Q. Did you take that to, to be a
10 full footprint, and by that I mean like a
11 shoe, a complete shoe impression?
12 A. That is what I imagined, yes.
13 Q. And that, whether you were told
14 that directly or you just assumed that, you
15 believe is the source of your belief that it
16 was an adult's shoe?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You have been asked about whether
19 or not anyone in your family owns Hi-Tec
20 shoes or ever owned Hi-Tec shoes?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And I am not restating a
23 question, Mr. Wood. And do you recall you
24 said no one ever did?
25 A. Yes.

0121
1 Q. You have had -- and that was in
2 '98, more than two years ago. You have had
3 an opportunity to, now that you are in
4 possession of knowledge causing you to
5 believe this is a significant fact in the
6 investigation, you have had almost, we will
7 assume, at least a year to rethink that.
8 Have you given it some thought as to maybe
9 someone in the family had Hi-Tec shoes?
10 MR. WOOD: Are you asking her
11 whether she thought about whether somebody in
12 the family -- I mean, all of the prefatory
13 comments leading up to that.
14 Is the question, since June of
15 1998, Ms. Ramsey, have you given any thought
16 as to whether someone in your family had
17 Hi-Tec shoes?
18 MR. LEVIN: That is correct.
19 That is the question.
20 MR. WOOD: All right. You can
21 answer that question.
22 THE WITNESS: No.
23 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Did you try, in
24 your mind, and perhaps to assist your
25 investigator, identify sources close to your

0122
1 family that might be the origin of the
2 Hi-Tec shoe impression?
3 A. I think, you know, I may have
4 asked Susan if she had ever seen any. I
5 mean, I didn't, I don't know what a Hi-Tec
6 boot looks like, per se. I have tried to
7 kind of, as I am in shoe stores, look around
8 trying to see what, what's the significance
9 and special about a Hi-Tec boot, and I
10 haven't, haven't even seen any yet. But I
11 may have asked Susan, did you know anybody
12 that looked like they wore Hi-Tec shoe,
13 boots, or whatever.
14 Q. Do you recall a period of time,
15 prior to 1996, when your son Burke purchased
16 a pair of hiking boots that had compasses on
17 the shoelaces? And if it helps to
18 remember --
19 A. I can't remember.
20 Q. Maybe this will help your
21 recollection. They were shoes that were
22 purchased while he was shopping with you in
23 Atlanta.
24 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that
25 as a fact?

0123
1 MR. LEVIN: I am stating that as
2 a fact.
3 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Does that help
4 refresh your recollection as to whether he
5 owned a pair of shoes that had compasses on
6 them?
7 A. I just can't remember. Bought so
8 many shoes for him.
9 Q. And again, I will provide, I'll
10 say, I'll say this as a fact to you, that,
11 and maybe this will help refresh your
12 recollection, he thought that -- the shoes
13 were special because they had a compass on
14 them, his only exposure for the most part to
15 compasses had been in the plane and he kind
16 of liked the idea of being able to point
17 them different directions. Do you remember
18 him doing that with the shoes?
19 A. I can't remember the shoes. I
20 remember he had a compass thing like a
21 watch, but I can't remember about the shoes.
22 Q. You don't remember him having
23 shoes that you purchased with compasses on
24 them?
25 MR. WOOD: She will tell you that

August 2000 Patsy Ramsey Atlanta Interview
(Burke and Hi-Tec Boots)

0124
1 one more time. Go ahead and tell him, and
2 this will be the third time.
3 THE WITNESS: I can't remember.
4 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Okay. Does it
5 jog your memory to know that the shoes with
6 compasses were made by Hi-Tec?
7 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that
8 as a fact?
9 MR. LEVIN: Yes. I am stating
10 that as a fact.
11 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't know
12 that.
13 Q. (By Mr. Levin) I will state this
14 as a fact. There are two people who have
15 provided us with information, including your
16 son, that he owned Hi-Tec shoes prior to the
17 murder of your daughter.
18 MR. WOOD: You are stating that
19 Burke Ramsey has told you he owned Hi-Tec
20 shoes?
21 MR. LEVIN: Yes.
22 MR. WOOD: He used the phrase
23 Hi-Tec?
24 MR. LEVIN: Yes.
25 MR. WOOD: When?

0125
1 MR. LEVIN: I can't, I can't give
2 you the source. I can tell you that I have
3 that information.
4 MR. WOOD: You said Burke told
5 you.
6 MR. LEVIN: I can't quote it to
7 you for reasons I am sure, as an attorney,
8 you are aware.
9 MR. WOOD: Just so it is clear,
10 there is a difference between you saying that
11 somebody said Burke told them and Burke
12 telling you because Burke has been
13 interviewed by you all December of 1996,
14 January of 1997, June of 1998.
15 Are you saying that it is within
16 those interviews?
17 MR. LEVIN: No.
18 MR. WOOD: So he didn't tell you,
19 he told somebody else you are stating as a
20 fact because I don't think you all have
21 talked to him other than those occasions,
22 have you?
23 MR. KANE: Mr. Wood, we don't
24 want to get into grand jury information.
25 Okay?

0126
1 MR. WOOD: Okay.
2 MR. KANE: Fair enough?
3 MR. LEVIN: I am sorry, I should
4 have been more direct. I thought you would
5 understand --
6 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Fleet Junior also
7 says that he had Hi-Tec shoes.
8 A. Okay. Now --
9 Q. Does that jog your memory?
10 A. Is, are you talking like Hi-Tec
11 like --
12 Q. The brand name.
13 A. These are really high tech or the
14 brand name? Did the children understand the
15 difference, or are they --
16 Q. I was talking brand name.
17 A. They knew like a brand name like
18 Nike, whatever?
19 Q. Yes, yes, ma'am.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. That doesn't jog your recollection
22 at all?
23 A. No.
24 MR. WOOD: You are answering no
25 for the reporter?

0127
1 THE WITNESS: No, it does not.
2 MR. WOOD: You gave it a nod of
3 the head.
4 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) Just so we
5 are clear, these boys may have referred to
6 them as boots. Does that make any
7 difference to you as far as distinguishing
8 between shoes and boots?
9 MR. WOOD: She would have to see
10 what those boys said in context, in all
11 fairness, Mitch, before she can comment on
12 what they might have meant and how it
13 affects her.
14 THE WITNESS: I mean, I just, I
15 can't remember shoes with compasses, and I
16 don't know all of the brand names of all the
17 shoes that I buy for my children. So --
18 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) And I am just
19 asking do you remember a pair of boots with
20 compasses?
21 MR. WOOD: For the fourth time
22 now.
23 THE WITNESS: I don't remember
24 compasses on any shoes.
25 MR. WOOD: Fair enough. Shoes,

0128
1 boots, compasses.
2 THE WITNESS: I have a picture in
3 my mind of a compass on a watch, but --
4 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) Shoes, boots,
5 you don't remember a compass on footwear?
6 A. No, I can't.
7 CHIEF BECKNER: I have a
8 follow-up question.
9 Q. (By Chief Beckner) You said you
10 had never seen the photograph of a footprint?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. Have you seen some of the crime
13 scene photos?
14 A. I have seen photographs of her
15 bedroom, and I think I have seen photographs
16 of the downstairs bathroom, basement bathroom.
17 A few.
18 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Just to follow-up
19 on Chief Beckner's --
20 MR. WOOD: You all asked her, you
21 all gave her a ton of photographs in June.
22 MR. LEVIN: Right, and that's
23 what I was going to ask her, if you've seen
24 photos.
25 Q. (By Mr. Levin) I mean, they

0129
1 spent days, day and a half going through
2 photographs with you. Other than in that
3 setting in June of '98, have you ever been,
4 have you ever had a sit down with someone
5 and gone through some of the crime scene
6 photographs other than that, that particular
7 experience, which we don't need to rehash?
8 A. I don't think so. No.
9 Q. (By Chief Beckner) Lou Smith has
10 never shown you any photographs that he has?
11 A. I can't remember if he has. I
12 am sure I would have remembered if they
13 were.
14 Q. How about Ellis Armistead?
15 A. I just can't remember.
16 Q. Ollie Gray?
17 A. No.

---

(SNIP)

---

0130
3 Q. (By Chief Beckner) You just
4 don't recall sitting down and having any of
5 your investigators show you any photos?
6 MR. WOOD: Well, you were asking
7 about crime scene photos, Chief, I thought.
8 CHIEF BECKNER: Yes.
9 THE WITNESS: They have shown me
10 photos of people and said do you recognize
11 this person.
12 Q. (By Chief Beckner) Okay. I am
13 specifically referring to photos taken inside
14 the house or outside the house.
15 A. Yeah. Right. Well, certainly
16 when we did that interview.
17 Q. Yeah, I am not talking about the
18 photos we showed you.
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. I am just asking -
21 A. Other ones.
22 Q. - other photos that your
23 investigators may have shown you.
24 A. No.
25 Q. (By Mr. Kane) You said at one

0131
1 point you might have asked Susan. Are you
2 talking about Susan Stein?
3 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
4 Q. You said you might have asked
5 her. Do you have any recollection of asking
6 her about Hi-Tec? Is there anything that
7 makes you think that you might have asked
8 that? What made you --
9 A. Well, we just spent quite a lot
10 of time together, and she is very interested
11 in the case. And we kind of hung around
12 the same people.
13 Q. Uh-huh (affirmative).
14 A. And I could have asked her, you
15 know, do you know anybody with Hi-Tec boots
16 or something.
17 Q. But you don't have any specific
18 recollection of that?
19 A. I don't specifically remember
20 saying that.
21 Q. Okay. Is this the first time
22 that you've heard that Burke says that he
23 had Hi-Tec?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. This is the very first time?

0132
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When you said in your book and
3 then you said at other times too that you
4 didn't own either brand --
5 MR. WOOD: Hold on. If you have
6 got a reference of the book.
7 MR. KANE: I'm sorry. Page 232.
8 MR. WOOD: And then you said at
9 other times, too. Be more specific to it.
10 MR. KANE: Okay. Well, I will
11 stick to the book.

---

(SNIP)

---

0133
24 MR. WOOD: We are not asking you
25 to authenticate it. We are just asking you

0133
1 to refer us to the page.
2 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Well, I
3 just want to make it clear that this wasn't
4 written by somebody else or a ghost writer
5 or something like that.
6 MR. WOOD: I think they had some
7 help, but I don't think it was like Mr.
8 Davis who wrote Mr. Thomas's book.
9 THE WITNESS: I think we were
10 referring that John or I didn't, did not
11 ever have -- were not in possession of --
12 Q. (By Mr. Kane) So when you said
13 we, you were referring to John or you?
14 A. Yes. It never occurred to me
15 about Burke's shoes.

---

(SNIP)

---

0134
1 A. Well, what is the, what size
2 print is the Hi-Tec? Is it a child's or is
3 it an adult's?
4 Q. I don't think there is any
5 difference between the two. And I think
6 that has been pretty well publicized too.
7 MR. WOOD: Well, you all can
8 debate that another day, if necessary.
9 MR. KANE: Yeah, I mean. That
10 is obvious, yes.
11 MR. WOOD: The point is, it would
12 probably be of some consequence to know the
13 context of what Burke said, at age, at age,
14 at age what?
15 THE WITNESS: Nine.
16 MR. KANE: Nine.
17 MR. WOOD: No, he didn't say it
18 at age nine.
19 THE WITNESS: Eight.
20 MR. WOOD: You are telling me he
21 said it sometime late fall of 1999, and I
22 think his age would have been closer in the
23 neighborhood of 12.
24 MR. LEVIN: I think 11 going on
25 12.

0135
1 MR. WOOD: No, I think he turned
2 13 January of 2000. So he was 12, and it
3 was some three years after the murder of his
4 sister, if that is when he first said it.
5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Pardon me. We
6 need to make a tape change.
7 (A recess was taken.)
8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: All right.
9 Q. (By Mr. Kane) I just want to
10 follow up, Mrs. Ramsey. How many times have
11 you spoken with Lou Schmidt personally?
12 Let's put it this way, since the grand jury
13 ended to narrow it down.
14 A. Oh, half a dozen.
15 Q. Was that here in Atlanta or back
16 in Colorado or both?
17 A. Both.
18 Q. During any of those discussions,
19 did you ever talk about the Hi-Tec shoeprint
20 that was found?
21 A. Probably. Not -- I can't
22 remember specifically what we talked about
23 each time.
24 Q. Okay. I mean, what was your,
25 were your -- the times that you did talk to

0136
1 him, was it about the investigation or about
2 evidence and that kind of thing or was it
3 more social? Maybe that is an unfair
4 question.
5 MR. WOOD: That is a bunch of
6 things. I think he wants to know what you
7 talked to him about, generally.
8 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Did you talk about
9 the investigation?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. But you don't have any
12 recollection of the shoeprint being part of
13 those discussions; is that what you are
14 saying?
15 A. Well, not specifically. I am
16 sure we talked about it. I mean, you know,
17 I've just heard many references made to the
18 Hi-Tec shoeprint.
19 Q. Okay. I think you said that you
20 don't recall whether Lou showed you any
21 photographs. Did he ever show you, on a
22 computer image, of any of the photographs?
23 A. I think so.
24 Q. Have you seen a photograph of the
25 Hi-Tec shoeprint yourself?

0137
1 A. I can't remember. I have this
2 vague image, but I don't know whether I am
3 imagining it in my mind or if I saw the
4 picture.

---

(SNIP)

---

0307
2 MR. LEVIN: Just for purposes of
3 keeping things going.
4 MR. WOOD: Is that all right?
5 CHIEF BECKNER: That's fine, but
6 nothing sticks out in your mind in terms
7 of --
8 THE WITNESS: Well, the most
9 recent thing that sticks out in my mind is
10 that Ollie obtained the Hi-Tec boots that
11 belonged to Helgoth, and that was very, you
12 know, surprising to me that he came up with
13 those. And I just am real curious as to
14 whether that -- you know, I don't know how
15 much of a footprint you all have, but does
16 it match and what have you done with that.
17 CHIEF BECKNER: That is something
18 we are still looking into.
19 Was Helgoth known, when that name
20 came up, was Helgoth somebody you knew prior
21 to this investigation?
22 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I
23 don't know what his business was or -- I
24 don't know any more about him than that.