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Surrounding the JonBenet Ramsey Murder case

[JonBenet Ramsey] Internet Subculture and the JonBenet Ramsey Murder Case

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[JonBenet Ramsey]

[Ramsey Legal Cases] Ramsey Case Quotes

Boulder Police Warrant - January 31, 1997

On December 29, 1996, Your Affiant talked to Sergeant Bob Whitson of the Boulder Police Department. Seargeant Witson told Your Affiant that he responded to 755 15th Street, City and County of Boulder, State of Colorado at approximately 0930 hours on December 25, 1996 in response to the report of a kidnapping. Seargeant Whitson told Your Affiant that when he arrived at the Ramsey residence, he entered through the rear exterior kitchen door. He told Your Affiant that as he entered the residence he saw what appeared to be a pry-mark in the door jam of this door. He told Your Affiant that the mark he observed was on the exterior of the house near the door knob and lock on the door, and that the damaged area appeared to have been less weathered than the surrounding surfaces on the door and door jam. Seargeant Whitson told Your Affiant that he spoke to John Ramsey who identified himself as the owner of the residence and the father of JonBenet Ramsey who he reported was now missing. Seargeant Witson told Your Affiant that Jon Ramsey stated to him that all the doors to the residence were locked when he and his family went to bed on the previous evening of December 25, 1996. Seargeant Whitson told Your Affiant that John Ramsey told him that the doors were still locked this morning when they discovered the child was missing.

NE Page 82 (04-30-1997 Interviews)

Patsy Ramsey: "No, I don't know whether I fixed it or didn't fix it. I can't remember even trying to remember that, um, I remember when I got back, uh, in the fall, you know... went down there and cleaned up all the glass."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay."

Patsy Ramsey: "I mean I cleaned that thoroughly and I asked Linda to go behind me and vacuum. I mean I picked up every chunk, I mean, because the kids played down there in that back area back there. And I mean I scoured that place when, cause they were always down there. Burke particularly and the boys would go down there and play with cars and things and uh, there was just a ton of glass everywhere."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay."

Patsy Ramsey: "And I cleaned all that up and then she, she vacuumed a couple of times down there."

NE Page 82 (04-30-1997 Interviews)

Tom Trujillo: "Do you ever recall getting that window replaced?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Yeah, uh, I can't remember. I just can't remember whether I got it replaced or not."

NE Page 83 (04-30-1997 Interviews)

Tom Trujillo: "... Patsy, has anybody, that you can remember, um, spent time in the basement, um, how many people have had access to the basement know about that basement cellar?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Well, my cleaning lady and her husband."

Tom Trujillo: "Linda and Mervin?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Yeah, would definitely be one couple, because I had asked them at Thanksgiving time, we were going to be in Atlanta and I had hired them to put out the Christmas trees and some of the Christmas decorations and the big artificial Christmas trees were back in that room..."

"And, uh, they also washed the windows, so they may be able to recall whether that window, and he was going to do some odd jobs."

NE Page 83 (04-30-1997 Interviews)

Patsy Ramsey: Uh, fix some shelves in the playroom and some, uh, closet doors that had come off their track and some stuff like that. And so I would, it seems to me like she and I talked about that window or did, somehow I vaguely remember that if it would have gotten fixed he very likely would be the one to fix it. And at any rate they were going to wash all the windows, so they would have known...."

Tom Trujillo: "Whether it was fixed or not?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Yeah"

NE Page 84 (04-30-1997 Interviews)

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. Um, other than Linda and Mervin, anybody else know about that cellar room down there?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Um. We had people come and let's see, like plumbers and stuff, but I don't know if they would go down there. I can't think who might, who had reason to know about that."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. You say that the artificial Christmas trees were stored in that room?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Yeah, uh huh."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. How do they..."

Patsy Ramsey: "Oh, well, you know, Christmas before last, the guys that put them down there put the trees into the closed, into the cellar room there, would have been Bob, uh, Bob Wallace."

Tom Trujillo: "With the goatee?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Yes, right"

Tom Trujillo: "Okay."

Patsy Ramsey: "Bob Wallace and one of this friends. I don't remember what his name was."

NE Page 85 (04-30-1997 Interviews)

Tom Trujillo: "Okay, Were you ever, you were not ever in the basement that morning before the police got there?"

Patsy Ramsey: "No, I was not."

Steve Thomas: "Patsy, when were you last in that cellar basement room prior to Christmas?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Prior to Christmas?"

Steve Thomas: "Yes, ma'am."

Patsy Ramsey: "Well, I was there, I was down there a lot on the 24th wrapping, and I was there on the 25th wrapping.."

NE Page 85 (04-30-1997 Interviews)

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. Um, that, that cellar down, that peg (at the top of the door), does that have to be down to keep that door closed?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Um, well, no, it will close. It, you know, it kind of, sort of sticks on the carpet a little bit. I mean, it will close, but that kind of I always kind of flipped that down just so the kids wouldn't get in there."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. But it doesn't, the door won't open up because of the carpet without that lock down? If you leave the lock in the up position the door doesn't just swing.."

Patsy Ramsey: "No."

NE Page 91 (04-30-1997 Interviews)

Patsy Ramsey: "Yeah, we had it there for a long time, and then around the holidays, I moved all that to the basement... cause we put coat racks and things in there for parties."

Tom Trujillo: "What part of the basement do you recall moving the painting supplies to?"

Patsy Ramsey: "I don't remember. I think Linda took all that down there... I don't remember where she put it."

Tom Trujillo: "How much stuff are we talking about?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Well, I had a bunch of big canvasses... and a big easel, a big tall easel. And then like a white caddy kind of thing, like a plastic thing that I had a bunch of paint in. It would have been a lot of stuff to flip over."

NE Page 121 (04-30-1997 Interviews)

Steve Thomas: "Okay. Do you recall when you went up the stairs, Fleet being upstairs at that point?"

John Ramsey: "No, I don't remember. At the point I saw the blanket until I laid her on the floor, I don't remember where Fleet was."

Steve Thomas: "And did you ever make a second trip, you never went back down to the basement, is that correct?"

John Ramsey: "That's correct."

NE Page 121 (04-30-1997 Interviews)

Steve Thomas: "And you mentioned when you went down in the morning, the 26th, and it was unlatched, did that strike you as odd or did you bring that to anybody's attention?"

John Ramsey: "I, I don't know, yeah, I think it probably struck me as a little odd, but it wasn't, I mean sometimes that window would be open because the basement got hot, or one of those windows would be opened. So it wasn't..."

NE Page 121 (04-30-1997 Interviews)

Steve Thomas: "Is there any reason that window went unreparired?"

John Ramsey: "No. I mean it's, Patsy usually took care of those things, and I just rarely went to the basement, so it just, I guess, got overlooked. Although she did think that she asked the cleaning lady's husband to fix it over Thanksgiving when they were doing some repair work there, but I don't know if that's ever been confirmed whether he fixed it or not."

NE Page 133 (04-30-1997 Interviews)

Steve Thomas: "Tom, let me just ask John this. Do you sit down and slide through, buttocks first if you will, through a window like that or, do you recall how you went through the actual window, John?"

John Ramsey: "I don't....remember. Seems like, I mean, I don't remember, but I think I would probably have gone in feet first."

Steve Thomas: "Feet first, backwards?"

John Ramsey: "Yeah."

Steve Thomas: "And when you went through in your underwear, were you wearing shoes...?"

John Ramsey: "I still had my shoes on, yeah."

NE Page 134 (04-30-1997 Interviews)

Tom Trujillo: "John, when you went down in the basement the first time and found the broken window, it was unlocked, you latched it. Did you notice if the room was overly cold or anything like that?"

John Ramsey: "No, it wasn't. I didn't notice that it was."

NE Page 134 (04-30-1997 Interviews)

Tom Trujillo: "You remember any lights on in the basement when you went down the first time?"

John Ramsey: "Ah, no, not specifically I don't. I mean, I don't remember if any were on the first time."

Tom Trujillo: "Do you remember turning on lights?"

John Ramsey: "Well, I would have had to see my way around. I'm sure I did."

NE Page 213 (06-25-1998 Interviews)

Trip DeMuth: "When and how often, I'm talking about in the months prior to Christmas, when and how often did you go into the wine cellar?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Oh, not very often. I might, you know, have a wrapping session, you know, of Christmas things in there, so maybe a couple of times before Christmas."

Trip DeMuth: "Is that shortly before Christmas or more into November, or what do you think?"

Patsy Ramsey: "No. Probably before Christmas."

NE Page 302 (06-25-1998 Interviews)

Lou Smit: "...Did you ever go down to the basement?"

John Ramsey: "Uh huh. I went....I was by myself. There's three windows across here...the middle one...was broken. There was pane glass broken out of it, which I attributed to breaking myself... it was open (an inch or so) and there was a suitcase under it...this hard Samonsite suitcase...and
I closed the window. I don't know why, but I closed it... I latched it ... I don't think I looked anywhere else."

Lou Smit: "...Did you tell anybody about that?"

John Ramsey: "I don't really remember... I mean part of what is going on, you're in such a state of disbelief this can happen. And the, you know, the window had been broken out. And you say, hah, that's it. But it was a window that I had used to get into the house before. It was cracked and open a little bit. It wasn't terribly unusual for me. Sometimes it would get opened to let cool air in because that basement could get real hot in winter...it was still sort of explainable to me that it could have been left open.....The suitcase was unusual. That shouldn't have been there. I took that suitcase downstairs, I remember. But I sure wouldn't have taken it all the way back there and put it against the window. I'm 99.9 percent (sure) that I wouldn't have taken it all the way back and set it against that wall."

Lou Smit: "Any other areas you looked at? You walked into that train room? Did you look at any of the closets or in any other areas?"

John Ramsey: "I don't remember doing that...."

Lou Smit: "You didn't go to the wine cellar at that time?"

John Ramsey: "No."

Lou Smit: "How long would you say you were down there?"

John Ramsey: "Oh, a minute. Thirty seconds to a minute."

Michael Kane: "When was this?"

John Ramsey: "....It was probably some time between seven and nine."

NE Page 304 (06-25-1998 Interviews)

Lou Smit: "What made you go downstairs?"

John Ramsey: "I just wanted to start logically from the bottom up, I guess.... so I went down to the basement... I explained to (Fleet) that this window had been cracked open and I closed it.... that the window was broken, but I think it was broken by me... we got down on our hands and knees looking for some glass just to see."

Lou Smit: "What did you find?"

John Ramsey: "I think we found a few fragments of glass... not enough to indicate that it was a fresh break... we might have put them on the ledge, if I remember. It really wasn't much. We had only found one or two."

NE Page 314 (06-25-1998 Interviews)

Lou Smit: "So you think that the chair would block the door and nobody would have gotten in there without moving it?"

John Ramsey: "Correct"

Lou Smit: "In other words, let's say that the intruder goes into the train room, gets out, let's say, that window?"

John Ramsey: "Uh huh."

Lou Smit: "How in effect would he get that chair to block that door, if that is the case, is what I'm saying?"

John Ramsey: "I don't know... I go down, I say, "Ooh, that door is blocked." I move the chair and went in the room."

Lou Smit: "So you couldn't have gotten in without moving the chair?"

John Ramsey: "Correct... I had to move the chair."

Lou Smit: "The thing I'm trying to figure out in my mind then is, if an intruder went through the door, he'd almost have to pull the chair behind him... because that would have been his exit... so that's not very logical as far as......"

John Ramsey: "I think it is. I mean if this person is that bizarrely clever to have not left any good evidence, but left all these little funny clues around, they... are clever enough to pull the chair back when they left."

NE Page 362 (06-25-1998 Interviews)

John Ramsey: "Well, it looks rough. I don't remember the floor being that rough, unless it was back in the corner. Back in the...corner. There was a lot of moisture that came in there. We had, in fact at one time we had a leak and I extended the drainpipe. The downspout that came in, probably right there, and I extended it out, which stopped the leaking, but the downspout just emptied out in the ground and ended up in this part of the basement, and this kind of looks like that was kind of a nasty end to the wine cellar."

Lou Smit: "When did you do that?"

John Ramsey: "....A year or two before (that) Christmas. I did it some time ago."

Lou Smit: "Did you ever clean or sweep that wine cellar for any reason or know that it had been?

John Ramsey: "Well, it would have been early - early in the ownership of the house, as we....cleaned up the basement."

Lou Smit: "And that would have been when, what year?"

John Ramsey: "Oh, '92, probably, '93 maybe, '92 most likely. Because the room was just nasty. I had to get all this stuff out and then I discovered a little safe that was down there (cut into the floor). And I cleaned it out. So I think I cleaned it up. I don't know whether I did it after that, but I am sure it was cleaned at one point..."

Scott Ross (The 700 Club) w/ John and Patsy Ramsey (July 19, 2000)

Scott Ross: The latest little deal to come out, it hit the press a few days ago, was the fact that you have now gone to a psychic?

John Ramsey: Not true.

Scott Ross: Well … I have the article right here …

John Ramsey: Read it in the paper has to be true! Let me dispel your image of that.

Scott Ross: There it is. You put out a $100,000 reward to find this guy, and it's on your website.

John Ramsey: Our investigators control the web site. They put that picture on there. We did not contact a psychic as has been reported. The sketch that appeared on the web site that our investigators use was provided by Dorthy Allison on a television program a year or so ago. Our objective is to keep this alive in the public's mind, in hopes that the one lead that we are waiting for will come through.

Scott Ross: So you allowed it to be used?

John Ramsey: We don't control the web site. The information that was put on there was put on there by our investigators, what they think is appropriate.

Lou Smit showing Power Point Presentation on Larry King Live (05-28-2001)

Larry King: We're back with Lou Smit, the retired Colorado detective. Give us your theory. Take us through. What do you think happened?

Lou Smit:
I believe that some time during December 25th, 1996.

Larry King: Christmas night.

Lou Smit: Christmas night -- someone got into the house of John and Patsy Ramsey. I believe there is some evidence to suggest strongly that they may have come in through a basement window.

Larry King: A window. Was that window open when they investigated it?

Lou Smit: Yes. When John Ramsey had first seen the window...

Larry King: There we see a window. That's the window, right?

Lou Smit: That's the window. Now, again, that picture that you see is the first photograph taken of that window
after the crime scene technicians got back into the house. Now, later on, I believe that it was noted that this window may have been opened even by John Ramsey and Fleet White. But what that window did show us, when we first seen it, was that entry could have been made there. There was a scuff mark down the wall. There was leaves and debris on the floor, directly below that open window.

And when we looked at photographs of the window well that leads into that window, we've also seen evidence of recent disturbance. There is also foliage under the grate that covers this window well, which would indicate that someone may have opened and shut the grate. There is also disturbance on the windowsill of the middle window only, not the other two windows.

Larry King: Lou, if it is, though, a cover-up, couldn't Mr. Ramsey or someone have gone out and done all those things?

Lou Smit: Sure, anything is possible. But he would have had to go out, and lift the grate, go through window well, he would have had to open the window, leaving perhaps finger marks on the window itself. There is also another window that leads into that basement where it also shows recent disturbance, as if someone may have tried to get in that window.

Larry King: No prints on the window?

Lou Smit:
No prints that we know of on the window.

Lou Smit showing Power Point Presentation on Larry King Live (05-28-2001)

Larry King: So, your theory is, the intruder brought the suitcase? Opened the window and put suitcase down to step on it?

Lou Smit: The suitcase was in the house. It does belong to John Andrew.

Larry King: So, the intruder had to jump in through the window?

Lou Smit: The intruder had to come in through the window.

Larry King: He used the suitcase to get out.

Lou Smit:
Yes. It would make it much easier to get out of that basement.

Lou Smit showing Power Point Presentation on Larry King Live (05-28-2001)

Larry King: OK, Lou, we have seen the open window, we have seen the suitcase, and then you have a theory as well dealing with the bed, which is? What's your theory?

Lou Smit: I believe that the killer did take JonBenet from her bed.

Lou Smit showing Power Point Presentation on Larry King Live (05-28-2001)

Steve Thomas: I say, in law enforcement circles, this is under this hypothesis that I purport that this was not an intentional killing, that this was accidental initially, which by definition lacks motive. But then what happened, I think, a panicked mother, instead of taking that next step, went left, and covered this thing up. I don't think that -- this isn't rocket science.

Larry King: Do you think she was disciplining the child, it got out of hand? Is that your guess?

Steve Thomas: Well, who knows. The victim certainly knows, and the offender certainly knows, but my guess is, yeah, there was some sort of explosive encounter between mother and daughter that resulted in this child dead.


Larry King: Lou, is his guess as good as yours?

Lou Smit: Well, I think that
perhaps this is a guess. But what I see in this crime is not an accidental murder. This is not a little doink on the head, and I think I killed my daughter, so I'm go going into this massive staging.

I see a brutal first-degree murder. I see a very violent death of JonBenet. I see someone fashioning a garrote and putting it around her neck. I see someone tightening that garrote to control her. I see someone taking that handle and pulling it very violently tight and killing her.

Lou Smit showing Power Point Presentation on Larry King Live (05-28-2001)

Larry King: What kind of person does this?

Lou Smit: The person I see doing this is a very vicious, brutal criminal,
perhaps a sadistic pedophile.

Larry King: Not a kidnapper-type? Kidnapper types are usually professional, they are out after a ransom, they are going to take -- they are going to keep the child alive, keep them well, going to want to talk to the child before you pay the money. Why would a kidnapper do this?

Lou Smit:
Perhaps, the kidnapper is also a sadistic pedophile, perhaps that was his intent all along. I don't know what was in the mind of the killer. All I know is that the killer fantasied making this garrote in his mind. He fantasized putting this around JonBenet's neck.

He had to put a handle on this garrote. He had to put a noose on this garrote. He had to put it around JonBenet's neck, probably while she was still bound and had duct tape on her mouth, this is a fantasy in the mind of the killer. Why he did this, inside the house, I don't know.

Perhaps he don't have a place to take JonBenet. Perhaps he couldn't get her out of the house. I believe that the suitcase has another function in that window. I think perhaps he tried to stick her in that suitcase. I believe that there is...

Larry King: Really they are going...

Lou Smit: Fibers on the outside of JonBenet's clothing
which may have come from the material inside that suitcase. That is what the lab report says.

Lou Smit showing Power Point Presentation on Larry King Live (05-28-2001)

Larry King: What do you think went wrong?

Lou Smit:
I believe that the killer had started out with a kidnapping in mind. Now, this again is my hypothesis. This is...

Larry King: You've got to put a scenario together, right?

Lou Smit:
I believe that he was going to take her out of house. There is some evidence to suggest that he did perhaps try to put her in a suitcase. Perhaps he couldn't get the suitcase in the window and then get out of the window himself. Perhaps he got into the window and couldn't pull the suitcase out after him.

So, I don't know why he suddenly went to that basement room, fashioned a garrote from something that was right there in plain sight and brutally murdered JonBenet.
Perhaps she knew him. Perhaps she screamed. Something triggered this man to kill JonBenet in a very brutal fashion.

Lou Smit showing Power Point Presentation on Larry King Live (05-28-2001)

Larry King: We're back with Lou Smit, who has finally gone public with his thoughts. What about stun gun?

Lou Smit:
I think that the stun gun is one of the best clues left behind by the killer, as far as a clue, not only into a possible way we can find him, because someone would probably have seen him with a stun gun, but it also may explain why JonBenet did not cry out when she was first abducted. There has been a lot of theories on the stun gun. I am convinced that a stun gun was used. I am not positive that it is an Air Taser stun gun.

Larry Kiing: Meaning?

Lou Smit: Meaning that the
Air Taser stun gun is as close as we've been able to find to the marks on JonBenet. Myself and Dr. Doberson, from Littleton, the coroner, have conducted experiments on pigs. We have replicated the marks on JonBenet by using it on pigs. Stun-gun marks are very distinctive, Larry. Stun gun marks have no cuts, they're not bleeding, there's no bruising, there's no swelling, there's no blistering. JonBenet's marks on her body -- two sets of marks, one on her back and one on her face -- show all of those characteristics. Those same characteristics are shown on other stun gun cases that we've been able to uncover.

Lou Smit showing Power Point Presentation on Larry King Live (05-28-2001)

Larry King: Back to the ransom note. Weren't there some things in the ransom note that were taken right out of the movies?

Lou Smit:
When I first seen it, and Alex Hunter first showed it to me -- I wasn't hired at the time...

Lou Smit showing Power Point Presentation on Larry King Live (05-28-2001)

Larry King: What about those who say that you have bonded with the Ramseys, that you have become so wrapped in this that you aren't going to not listen to whatever the other side presents?

Lou Smit: You know, Larry, I know that that's out there. And that just definitely is not true. Yes, I do show compassion to the Ramseys. Yes, I do talk to the Ramseys.

I found out as a detective, you do not build walls between you and the person that even you are looking at. I have never done that. I don't know where you have to interrogate even a suspect every time that you meet him, or meet them. I do believe, again, in showing compassion toward the family, but I have not bonded with the Ramseys.
I rarely talk to them even now.

Larry King: Weren't there a story that you prayed with them?

Lou Smit: I did. That's a true story. It's part of my...

Lou Smit showing Power Point Presentation on Larry King Live (05-28-2001)

Larry King: Can you learn a lot from talking to the son?

Lou Smit: You know,
I have never really had a long, in-depth interview with the son.

Larry King: He might have seen temper, he might have known other people who may have been prowling around, right? I mean, wouldn't he be someone to talk to?

Lou Smit: I think that it's very necessary to talk to the son. Burke Ramsey was a 9-year-old boy at the time that this happened. He was interviewed exclusively shortly after the murder. He came in for I believe two or three days and talked to Dan Schuler, another detective. They got almost every bit of information out of him that they could during those interviews.

Lou Smit showing Power Point Presentation on Larry King Live (05-28-2001)

Larry King: A couple other things with Lou Smit, the charges that the Ramseys didn't cooperate with the police, didn't go down, didn't volunteer. Some have said, if it was my kid, I would be at that door everyday, knocking the door in, saying, find the killer.

Lou Smit: I know, Larry, that that has been one of the highest criticisms of the Ramseys, but Larry, what happened in this case the Ramseys did talk to the police for the first two days. There was a police officer that was with them 24 hours a day for the next three days. The Ramseys should have been interviewed right away. That was a mistake. One of the biggest mistakes that was made. They should have been brought down to the police station right away. It was not their decision not to do that...

Larry King: ...why were they asked a week later?

Lou Smit: The Ramseys a week later were burying their daughter also at the time being advised by lawyers. John Ramsey had talked to Mike, one of their friends. Mike suggested the lawyers. From what I have been able to see, since I have been in this case, even from the outside, is the lawyers advised them not to do anything. The lawyers were trying to keep the Ramseys out of jail. The focus was on the Ramseys right from the beginning.

Lou Smit showing Power Point Presentation on Larry King Live (05-28-2001)

Larry King: Where do we go from here?

Lou Smit: I believe that what should be done, even at this time, they have worn the Ramsey path out,
I believe that perhaps they should get in fresh minds and fresh eyes, experienced people that can take a look at this case with an unbiased view point. That means getting rid of perhaps even the detectives that are working on it now. Getting rid of Lou Smit. Let somebody else in there that can objectively take a look at that case.

Lou Smit in "Who Killed The Pageant Queen? (07-11-2001)

LOU SMIT - And that's exactly what the photographs show me. There was a great deal of foliage which was on the front of the grate and it actually had been pinched under the leading edge of that grate. Even when you pick the grate up you can see very clearly that there was green foliage right on the plate that the grate rested on. Also, in looking into the window well, the window in the centre the one that had been opened had a great deal of disturbance in that particular area of the window. You can also see what appears to be finger marks on the window frame itself.

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