June 1998 Patsy Ramsey Interrogation by Thomas Haney and Trip DeMuth (JonBenet's Pageants)
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Just momentary. I
16 remember -- remember laying the little red
17 jumpsuit of JonBenet's over the ironing board,
18 because it had a few spots on it, so I was
19 thinking when I came back from the lake I was
20 going to take that to the dry cleaners, and
21 decided to lay that under there somewhere.
22 TOM HANEY: Was that -- it wasn't
23 something you were going to take to the lake?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No, no, it was
25 something she had worn for a Christmas
1 performance. It was a little Christmas thing.
2 TOM HANEY: When had she worn that?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: She had worn it --
4 well, she wore it, some of her pageant girls
5 performed together in a group, some Christmas
6 songs and things, down in a mall in Denver, she
7 wore it for that.
20 TOM HANEY: Was there anything in
21 this prior behavior that looking back now seems
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, Priscilla was
24 never crazy about me doing this whole pageant
25 with JonBenet, she thought that was just totally
1 unnecessary, because she said you know, it's
2 just not the thing to do. Well, you know, I had
3 grown up doing it, I enjoyed it, I had a lot of
4 friends who had done it. I had very good
5 experience with it. So that's what I brought to
6 the table. My daughter was a performer, she was
7 beautiful, she was outgoing, and flourished in
8 that type of an environment. Daphne was not.
9 You know.
10 So Priscilla would oftentimes say
11 to me, you know, you just, you shouldn't do
12 that, you know, that's not a good thing to
14 I thought, you know, well, you
15 raise your children the way you do and we don't
16 all raise our children the same. So you know,
17 kind of looking back at that and think, you
18 know, did that really get to her or something.
19 I don't know (INAUDIBLE).
18 THOMAS HANEY: How about John with
19 JonBenet, did they do any special things
20 together? Is there anything that she liked dad
21 to take her to do?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she loved her
23 dad to be around all the time. You know, she
24 liked John to carry her up on his shoulders.
25 And they liked to bike-ride. And he went to the
1 pageants. She was always real proud that he was
2 in hardware as she called it, her -- trophy
3 winnings, medals, whatnot.
4 THOMAS HANEY: So he managed to get
5 to quite a few of those or most orall?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
7 THOMAS HANEY: Because from what
8 little I understand, it's kind of off-limits for
9 guys, but not -- not a lot of guys there?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: There are a lot of
11 fathers there, brothers.
12 THOMAS HANEY: Really?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, brothers,
4 THOMAS HANEY: Was JonBenet taking
5 tap lessons at or about this time?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, I believe she
8 THOMAS HANEY: Where was she taking
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Boulder Rec Center.
11 THOMAS HANEY: How often?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Once a week.
13 THOMAS HANEY: Was this part of
14 their -- the Rec Center program, or was it some
15 private person came in?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No, it was a Rec
17 Center program.
18 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, so it would
19 have been one of the staff, the instructor would
20 have been?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
22 THOMAS HANEY: Do you know who that
23 person was?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: It was Joseph
1 TRIP DeMUTH: Say again?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Joseph Beaucage.
3 THOMAS HANEY: How many kids were
4 in that group?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: About six or eight.
6 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, pretty small
8 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding.)
9 THOMAS HANEY: I think you said it
10 was once a week?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
12 THOMAS HANEY: How long had she
13 been going to that?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it started
15 in the fall and they were getting ready for a --
16 you know, had this community dance recital in
17 March, I think.
18 THOMAS HANEY: Did you ever go to
19 the practices, hang around, or were they open to
20 the parents or --
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, you mean the
23 THOMAS HANEY: Yes.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: We were allowed to
25 stay outside there.
1 THOMAS HANEY: And visit with other
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
4 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. During those
5 lessons, anything unusual with any of the
6 parents there?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean Pinky
8 Barber had her daughter in it, and Gwen Habley
9 (phonetic) was in it and (INAUDIBLE name).
10 And Burke, I had found -- Burke
11 would always go and kind of be hanging out. So
12 I had asked around and found a -- this old guy
13 that taught basketball lessons. So while
14 JonBenet was in there doing tap dancing class,
15 this fellow would work for Burke -- the gym
16 there, 45 minutes.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: What was his name?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Basketball.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Let me throw a name
20 out there for you. Howard Berkes (phonetic)
21 sound right, or do you know a Howard Berkes?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Howard, I believe it
23 was Howard.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: How did you find him?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, I think I was
1 sitting there talking with Pinky Barber on the
2 little benches there, outside the classroom, and
3 said, you know, boy, I wish I could find
4 somebody like a high school kid or somebody that
5 would teach -- work with Burke on basketball a
6 little bit. And if I remember, there was this
7 guy on a ladder that was changing light bulbs at
8 the Rec Center, said, "I overheard you." He
9 said, "I have a buddy that used to coach
10 basketball." And -- am I talking too much?
11 VOICE: Tom was five minutes ahead
12 of me on the first one actually. (INAUDIBLE.)
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. Anyway, this
14 guy said, I met this guy, so he --
15 TRIP DeMUTH: Howard?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: I believe his name
17 was. Old guy, I think kind of (INAUDIBLE).
18 Loved basketball. Loved to teach kids.
19 (Movement in the room made
20 videotape inaudible.)
24 THOMAS HANEY: We touched briefly
25 yesterday on the pageant that JonBenet was in,
1 we talked about the possibility of some parent.
2 Could you talk to us a little bit about how
3 these pageants were set up, how -- what kind of
4 security, if any. You know, how much -- start
5 with how were they publicized? I mean, is it a
6 preset group of people that's involved?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Very small. It's
8 open to anyone, but they don't have a tremendous
9 number of recipients. The first way I learned
10 about it was seeing it listed in Colorado, was
11 through a makeup artist in Denver where I was
12 having my makeup done for a Boulder publication
13 and we were talking about our children. She had
14 two girls and they did the pageants. I said oh,
15 you know, where are they, do you know where they
17 And so she told me about her
18 experiences with them. She said she would call
19 or give me the name of someone who did a couple
20 of them. So I subsequently called -- I think
21 the first one I called was -- I can't remember
22 the name. Anyway, there were two different
23 ones. And they had events coming up in the next
24 month or so. So I kind of inquired about it,
25 and went down and entered.
1 THOMAS HANEY: And when would that
2 have been, the first one?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Like spring or --
4 spring of -- spring, spring of '95 or '7? I
5 don't remember.
6 THOMAS HANEY: So you have been
7 involved for about a year and a half then?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
9 THOMAS HANEY: That's great. So
10 help me, did they have like a national
11 organization that has like an umbrella over
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, right, this
14 was -- they have a national group, and they
15 would have these local events.
16 THOMAS HANEY: Qualifying or
18 PATSY RAMSEY: In a hotel, you
19 know, in a hotel and they would have staging,
20 you know, dressing rooms and all that kind of
21 stuff. And they had different categories, where
22 you could choose to enter whichever categories
23 you would like. You know -- mostly modeling and
24 the reason we did it was because we did the ones
25 that would have talent, like singing, that kind
1 of thing.
2 So then for these, like they have a
3 western category and all the girls would wear
4 like a cute western outfit. And they have
5 sportswear and that would be kind of a dress --
6 you know, so they had these little categories.
7 And they were by age group. JonBenet was in the
8 4-to-6-year-old age group. And 10-to-12. So
9 they weren't competing with anybody much older
10 than they. And you kind of just do that all
11 afternoon, and at the conclusion of the day,
12 they would announce winners in various
13 categories. One of the categories was
14 photography, you know, the portfolios. You
16 THOMAS HANEY: Was there like
17 national, local publications, newsletters,
18 things like that that --
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I think they, if you
20 went to one and they got your name, then they
21 would mail you, they always had another next
22 November or whatever.
23 THOMAS HANEY: Had there been any
24 particular newsletter, publication, with a photo
25 or a story about JonBenet that would have been
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, dear. Actually
3 I think one of 'em, I think the American Kids or
4 Royal (INAUDIBLE) had done a brochure and put
5 different kids' pictures on, you know, each time
6 they would announce another event. I think
7 because she had been a winner, her picture was
8 on one of those. That would have gone to -- I
9 mean, I imagine that it just went to people who
10 had previously attended, you know.
11 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Did it give
12 other information about her, just kind of
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, right.
15 THOMAS HANEY: Did they, when one
16 of these pageants was held, was there a program
17 that was made up with photos?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
19 THOMAS HANEY: Vital information,
20 name, address?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't think it
22 had the address. It would just have their
23 names. You know like here are the 4-to-6
24 contestants, JonBenet, Susie, blah, blah, blah,
June 1998 Patsy Ramsey Interrogation by Thomas Haney and Trip DeMuth (JonBenet's Pageants)
1 THOMAS HANEY: And that was
2 distributed just at the --
3 PATSY RAMSEY: At the day of the
5 THOMAS HANEY: You had said these
6 were open to anybody. Was it like a paid
7 admission or --
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I think they
9 charged a little something to get in. Yeah.
10 But mostly just parents and relatives. Yeah.
11 THOMAS HANEY: You had only been
12 involved in it a short period of time?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
14 THOMAS HANEY: So I don't know, did
15 you have a feel for the people who were there,
16 were they the usual folks, I mean it's a -- I am
17 guessing, kind of a small group --
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
19 THOMAS HANEY: -- that regularly
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, yeah, you
22 know, the kind of same ones would be in a lot of
23 these events.
24 THOMAS HANEY: But how about some
25 unusual face in the crowd?
1 PATSY RAMSEY: You kind of get to
2 know each other. You know, like, oh, yeah, hi,
3 saw you last time or, you know. Sort of get to
4 know people. It's not that we knew each other
5 very well. We were kind of new, so...
6 TRIP DeMUTH: I am particularly
7 interested in the America Kids performance, and
8 that was only a few days before Christmas,
10 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding.)
11 TRIP DeMUTH: A short period before
13 PATSY RAMSEY: This was which one,
14 at the mall?
15 TRIP DeMUTH: That's the Southwest
16 Plaza Mall?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: Is that out in the
19 open? Are there walkways at the mall?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: It was an atrium
21 sort of area, in the mall. Where they
22 apparently had activities going on.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: Right. So people
24 that are shopping in the mall can walk by and
25 see the show?
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: So that was offered
3 to anybody just walking by?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: So there wasn't any
6 sense of -- there wasn't any security and
7 control of who was observing this particular
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: And there was some
11 discussion about signs in the Photo Kids. Do
12 you know what that is, signs and Photo Kids, do
13 you know what that is?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
15 TRIP DeMUTH: Are they like
16 brochures or magazines or where there --
17 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding.)
18 TRIP DeMUTH: Was there any
19 information, brochures handed out or displays of
20 any sort at the America Kids performance that
21 identified the participants in any way?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I remember.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: In other words if one
24 was walking by and they saw JonBenet, could they
25 find out who she was and where she lived?
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think so,
3 TRIP DeMUTH: So I don't know I
4 haven't --
5 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, that was the
7 first time we had done anything like this.
8 TRIP DeMUTH: I am just trying to
9 get a feel for how this was set up. Was there
10 any information at all handed out or displayed
11 about the children at all at the Southwest Plaza
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think so. I
14 don't think it was about the children. I think
15 they made an announcement that if you were
16 interested in more information about the pageant
17 that, I mean, the director was there and you
18 could speak with her or something like that.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Now I know
20 that JonBenet gave some sort of finale, I mean
21 she had some sort of solo singing part?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, a lot of -- I
23 mean there were a dozen of 'em or so there that
24 did --
25 TRIP DeMUTH: A solo?
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: And JonBenet did a
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: Was there an
6 announcer who announced her name at all when she
7 did a solo?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably so.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: First and last name?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably so. It may
11 have been taped, I don't know. Maybe you could
12 check with them to see if it had been taped.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: How long did the
14 performance last, approximately?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: The whole thing? Or
17 TRIP DeMUTH: The whole thing.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, the whole thing
19 was probably 45 minutes.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: And the same kind of
21 questions with regard to the beauty pageant at
22 the I-70 and Chambers Road, Holiday Inn that was
23 held on November 1 through 3, of 1996. And I
24 think that's the -- do you remember that one?
25 I-70 and Chambers Road, it's out east, Holiday
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Was that an open
4 atrium or was that in a private room, that
6 PATSY RAMSEY: That was in a
7 private room, like a ballroom kind of thing.
8 Like a conference room, area.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Who could come and go
10 to that?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I guess
12 anyone, you know. I think they charged to get
13 in. When was that held?
14 TRIP DeMUTH: November 1 through 3
15 of 1996. November 1996. That was a pageant of
16 some sort, does that ring a bell?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I mean it
18 does, that place rings a bell, but that date
19 doesn't seem right.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: When did you think it
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the only
23 reason I am having -- I'm thinking about that is
24 because -- because I was trying to think what
25 she wore, and I think she wore the little white
1 dress, that was a new dress for her that I had
2 gotten that I bought from a woman when we
3 attended a pageant over Thanksgiving in Georgia.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay, uh-hum.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: So she wouldn't have
6 had that dress, you know, she wouldn't have had
7 it --
8 TRIP DeMUTH: Later, okay. Okay,
9 well, maybe I have the date wrong. But what I
10 am concerned about is what information was
11 displayed or announced at that pageant, if you
13 PATSY RAMSEY: They introduced them
14 as they come onto the stage, you know, Number 4
15 is whoever, JonBenet, whatever.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Any brochures?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I recall.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: Was it crowded, were
19 there a lot of people at that pageant?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Not particularly
21 crowded. You know, you look around, you could
22 tell these are such-and-such parents, you know.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: And outside the
24 ballroom, was there any advertisement as to what
25 was going on inside the ballroom?
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't believe so.
2 If I remember right, that was kind of a new
3 hotel and there wasn't much going on.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: And was JonBenet also
5 in the Boulder Philharmonic Choir?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Did they perform?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: And where would they
11 PATSY RAMSEY: They performed --
12 they performed for the Boulder Christmas Pageant
13 or whatever it was, at the Boulder Theatre.
14 There was one there. And they performed --
15 TRIP DeMUTH: And that was open to
16 the public?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Open to the public.
18 And that was performed at the Dairy or something
19 in the fall, the group. In some kind of
20 festival or something.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Now I don't know, but
22 being part of a choir, I imagine that they don't
23 announce individuals or gave out individuals as
24 part of that program?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
1 TRIP DeMUTH: Did JonBenet have any
2 costume-makers besides Pam Griffin?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Who would those be?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Mary Beth.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Any others?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, there was one,
8 Emma, was having trouble, you know, finishing
9 some things, so I found a seamstress I believe
10 through a dress -- through a fabric shop, and
11 her, she was in the Federal Complex in kind of
12 the Westminster area.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: And do you recall her
15 PATSY RAMSEY: It's on a check
16 somewhere, I could find that out.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you, or speaking
18 of videotapes of the America Kids, or Amerikids,
19 who were the other pageants, or any of these
20 pageants, did you or anybody else videotape
21 those, that you know of?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: They would always
23 have somebody there videotaping and then you
24 bought the tape.
25 THOMAS HANEY: Are there other
1 videotapes out there that you are aware that we
2 might be able to look at, anything that you know
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably every one
5 that we were in.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: By the people who put
7 on the performance?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: How about the
10 parents, were they videotaping?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I
12 never did. I don't remember seeing it.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: And did JonBenet ever
14 complain of anyone at the pageant, did she ever
15 tell you somebody bothered her?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Anybody act peculiar
18 around her show?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: And if you could tell
21 us who your photographers were for --
22 PATSY RAMSEY: For her?
23 TRIP DeMUTH: Yes.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: David Haskell, and
25 Randy Simons and Judy Phillips had taken some
1 pictures, but that was before we were really
2 involved in pageants, but then I subsequently
3 used a couple of those for her. Of hers.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: She was also in the
5 Christmas Parade, right?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: She was on a float
8 with a couple of other girls?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it was a car.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Oh, she was
11 sitting in a car?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Was her name
14 displayed anywhere?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: And who was she in
17 the car with?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: My car with the
19 driver, it was a BMW, and JonBenet -- and I
20 wasn't there, I was in New York at the time,
21 John and I were out of town, but my parents took
22 her, and there were these little girls from the
23 America Kids.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: So there were maybe
25 four or five girls?
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: Sitting up on the
3 back of the Beemer?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, right. I
5 can't remember their names. I would if I saw a
6 picture somewhere.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay, now were all of
8 their names displayed on the side of the car?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I believe so.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.